Questions about Moore's facts.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5335853/site/newsweek/
i found this to be an interesting article about Moore's use of facts.
http://www.houseofbush.com/
I found this to be an interesting rebuttal. :cool:
If anyone's seen the
59 Deceits in F911 article by David Kopel, here are some responses to them:
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[color=black]three[/color][color=black] (8-16)[/color]
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[color=black]four[/color][color=black] (17-23)[/color]
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[color=black]five[/color][color=black] (24-31)[/color]
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[color=black]six[/color][color=black] (32-38)[/color]
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[color=black]seven[/color][color=black] (39-49)[/color]
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[color=black]eight[/color][color=black] (50-59)
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Thanks Happy Monkey :3eye: you just saved me the trouble of searching Google to debunk the critics. I just went to see the film last night and was both moved and impressed by it. I think it fully deserved the Palm D'Or at Cannes purely on the films merit. The opening sequence is a beautifully directed piece.
What I always find strangely comforting about moore's films is that they show an America I can relate to. The people of Flint look and sound like the people of Bolton, the old Northern Milltown I grew up in during a time when it's manufacturing base had been ripped apart. I know that environment. I grew up in a similar looking place with similar employment prospects at a time when unemployment for 19-29 year olds was running at an all time high in a Britain with nearly 4 million unemployed. ( officially)
The other thing I find moving about Moore's films and indeed his TV apperances is his humanity, his compassion for the workingclass backbone of America whose interests are systematically ignored by the electoral system they live under.
I find it amazing, that when such a large cloud hangs over the election results which somehow returned a Democratic winner but a Republican President that so many people concentrate their efforts on proving Moore a liar. Moore is not the one who put the cloud over the election results, he merely pointed it out along with many others.
Lie after lie from an administration whose interests lie firmly with their international family of oil and who is being harangued for his facts? The people who took a coalition of nations to war on a false prospectus? The people who lied to us all about Iraq's involvement with Al Quaeda and in doing so allowed the perpetrators of 9/11 get away into the Bora bora mountains where they are once more regrouped and in control of large areas ?
Lie upon lie, crime upon crime. Crimes of epic proportion which in another time or place would bring down a People's anger on the heads of those who committed them and it's Michael Moore who is demonised in the press and artistes who question the supreme will and right of the president to wage war in their name who are bullied into silence.
In any other country this would be seen as a form of covert dictatorship. When a man can lose an election and still take the seat of power it has all the hallmarks of a coup. But this happened in America, the worlds greatest democracy and the model for freedom in todays world. Terrifying.
May I have your attention please?
[size=10]NO MATTER HOW MANY FUCKING TIMES THEY RECOUNTED, HE STILL WON.[/size]
Losing the popular vote and winning the electoral college is always possible. It's how the system works. And this wasn't the first time this happened.
(Incidentally, the nonsense related to Gore's attempt to steal (yes, steal) the election is what cemented my disillusionment with the Democrat party that had started with the blowjob)
*clap clap clap* thank you wolf.
Well when they counted and recounted the figures suggested he should have lost because of the tens of thousands of your fellow citizens who were summarily disenfranchised and denied their vote
Of course it helps whne the person wishing to rig the election has the personal loyalties of the people a)doing the counting and b) acting as final arbiter
there are a lot of votes that aren't counted on every election.
i got a letter in the mail 6 weeks after the election notifying me that they were able to verify my registration but my vote still wasn't counted. and that one was for bush. hate bush all you want - there are plenty of reasons, but the stolen election is such a load of shit - move on.
Well when they counted and recounted the figures suggested he should have lost because of the tens of thousands of your fellow citizens who were summarily disenfranchised and denied their vote
Of course it helps whne the person wishing to rig the election has the personal loyalties of the people a)doing the counting and b) acting as final arbiter
People choosing not to vote is not "disenfranchising" them.
Neither is not allowing prisoners to vote.
The only "rigging" that was attempted was on the part of the Democrats, dearie. You want to change our system? Emigrate legally if you meet the criteria, apply for citizenship and vote.
The felon list in Florida which was used in 2000 and 2002 has finally been discarded due to dramatic errors, far in excess of the margin of the election results. And that's just the easiest of the disenfranchisements to document.
was there anyone on the list who may have voted republican?
Well when they counted and recounted the figures suggested he should have lost because of the tens of thousands of your fellow citizens who were summarily disenfranchised and denied their vote
You mean the absentee ballots filed by our men and women in the miltary serving on foreign soil that Al Gore filed a lawsuit to keep from being counted?
Not that we owe you an explanation or anything.
the stolen election bit is just playing by the rule "if you say it often enough and loud enough, it must be true, so i have to tell every one as often and loudly as possible."
On the list of 48000 people, there were 22000 black people, who traditionally vote Democratic, and 61 hispanics, who in Florida traditionally vote Republican.
well, you showed me - 22000 people who would have voted democrat. if they went to the polls, and they supported gore, and they were smart enough to push a chad through.
how many of these people actually would have gotten off their butts to vote? there is no way of knowing, so it doesn't matter.
First note: All 22000 were not eligable to vote. The problem was that there were far more blacks on the list than were felons, and far fewer hispanics.
Second, even if you got signed affidavits from everyone on the list, and all felons not on the list, that they had no intention of voting, it would still matter, because the choice was being made for them.
This kind of stuff happens on both sides in every election.
Jeb said he'd deliver florida and boy did he.
UT's right. i'm from illinois, you know that state that surrounds chicago??? chicago - the city where faithful democrats never miss and opportunity to vote, even after they are dead... sometimes twice...
stuff happens in both directions
People choosing not to vote is not "disenfranchising" them.
Neither is not allowing prisoners to vote.
The only "rigging" that was attempted was on the part of the Democrats, dearie. You want to change our system? Emigrate legally if you meet the criteria, apply for citizenship and vote.
I was responding to this post, which is obviously false. Gore was an idiot for not requesting a complete state-wide recount, including military and other absentee ballots. It served him right that it bit him on the ass. Unfortunately, it did not serve the rest of us right, which is why it is important to stop it from happening again.
Interestingly the overseas military votes, many of which were datestamped for after the cut off point were counted. So a group which traditionally supports the Republicans had votes which should not have been counted...counted. And votes from a group which traditonally supports the democrats which should have been counted....werent
"You mean the absentee ballots filed by our men and women in the miltary serving on foreign soil that Al Gore filed a lawsuit to keep from being counted?" He objected to votes which were past the date. That's acting within the law...the people who made the ultimate decisions about those questions after the election night fiasco were headed up by a Bush loyalist
Perhaps if you guys had had someone without a conflict of interests overseeing the matter the result might have had a gram or two of credibility. As it is, the world looked on in disbelief and consternation as the American public was uberduped.....and then having been duped you insist on defending the people that duped you *chuckles* it's like having a friend who is married to a serial adulterer and yet defends his every move with insistences of his honesty and love.
Perhaps if you guys had had someone without a conflict of interests overseeing the matter the result might have had a gram or two of credibility.
No such thing. Unless you're suggesting we invite the UN in to moderate our elections? Yes wouldn't THAT be fabulous.
Having someone who had actively campaigned for candidate in Florida oversee a recount in a disputed result was more than the usual level of partisan conflict of interests
Oh and what the hell was going on here?
"""What Happened to African American Voters?
Even before Election Day was over last year, stories began to circulate about how the rights of black voters were being taken away. Florida, of course, got the most attention, and there were certainly many things that were questionable about the treatment of black voters there. Thousands of punch-card ballots, which were used largely in poor in minority districts, were thrown out. When the names of criminals were removed from voting lists statewide, many legitimate black voters' names were taken off as well, and these voters were turned away when they showed up at the polls. A very controversial police blockade was placed just two miles from a polling place in a heavily African American district. And there were many reports of intimidation and harassment of black voters at the polls themselves. As Florida Congresswoman Carrie Meek said, "The system is not working for us…again." """
From the Brainevent site
Disrimination at the PollsY'know what though? It is about to stop mattering. Bush looks likely to win the next one fair and square .....The democrats are about to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory ....thats my prediction, but then I am in a glum mood
Thread of hope:
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[size=5]Kerry 332 Bush 195[/size][/center]
[center]
[/center]
Heheh call me cynical but i have never recovered from the last Tory election win in 1992. The polls showed a labour win right til the night then the exit polls said a hung parliament with labour the dominant party.....By 11 o clock that night it becamse clear we had four more years of conservative rule. People had lied in the exit polls *chuckled* nobody wanted to admit they had voted Tory so they just voted tory and then lied on the way out teh door when they were polled.
Funnily enough some reporters came to my home town a few weeks after the election to try and find people who would admit to voting tory . They went around asking people a few general questions and included in there a query as to which way they had voted and I think if memory serves they found less than 10 in a poll of several hundred......bolton, an industrial smoggy town with a radical past and a history of Labour voted tory in droves but wouldnt bloody admit it *chuckles* Imagine that, bunches of people voting for a party then being too ashamed to admit it.They voted on their pockets ( wrongly as it happened they backed the wrong horse if they wanted to be more affluent heheh)
On a side note I remember doing some canvasing for that election. You can imagine my pride in my felow countrymen and our grand parliamentary tradition when more than one person said to me ( in the usual way of Bolton parlance) "Fuck off I am not voting for that red headed welsh twat".....This was from a section of the public which had no love for the tories. They said theyd rather not vote than vote for a red headed welshman
I don't think Bush backers are ashamed to admit it over here, so if these polls turn around then I expect it wil be due to some sort of October Surprise.
*grins* for second then I had the delightful mental image of America suddenly going into Russian style Oktober Revolution
I don't think Bush backers are ashamed to admit it over here, so if these polls turn around then I expect it wil be due to some sort of October Surprise.
Where did that map come from, HM. I'd like to see the key. :)
Click the numbers over the map. Tennessee is tied. Otherwise, the darkness of the color indicates the size of the lead.
OK, so dark is a lock, lighter a probable and white is up for grabs but leaning toward the border color. Thanks. :D
............ married to a serial adulterer and yet defends his every move with insistences of his honesty and love.
We aren't talking about Hillary Clinton here. Please stay on topic.
"We aren't talking about Hillary Clinton here. Please stay on topic. "
hahahahah Very sharp.
Having someone who had actively campaigned for candidate in Florida oversee a recount in a disputed result was more than the usual level of partisan conflict of interests
Oh and what the hell was going on here?
"""What Happened to African American Voters?
Even before Election Day was over last year, stories began to circulate about how the rights of black voters were being taken away. Florida, of course, got the most attention, and there were certainly many things that were questionable about the treatment of black voters there. Thousands of punch-card ballots, which were used largely in poor in minority districts, were thrown out. When the names of criminals were removed from voting lists statewide, many legitimate black voters' names were taken off as well, and these voters were turned away when they showed up at the polls. A very controversial police blockade was placed just two miles from a polling place in a heavily African American district. And there were many reports of intimidation and harassment of black voters at the polls themselves. As Florida Congresswoman Carrie Meek said, "The system is not working for us…again." """
From the Brainevent site
Disrimination at the Polls
I wasn't surprised by this news in the
LEAST. I remember when I heard of this right after the election and all I could do is shake my head. :mad: Ah well.. thanks for the site DanaC.
Are we headed for this in '08? Does anyone think that any of the "safeguards" put in place since then will make any difference?
WOW! Up from the depths come some enlightenment
http://www.electoral-vote.com/
WOW! Up from the depths come some enlightenment
I've been addicted to "The SteveDallas Random Thread Picker" and found some great threads and even the inspiration for business idea.
Damm! and I thought this would be another great chance to beat up on ole high school drop out Mike Moore. I am really disappointed
Hey now, there will be no lynchings... but you're welcome to shoot the bastard, if you've a mind to.
Hey now, there will be no lynchings... but you're welcome to shoot the bastard, if you've a mind to.
I'm thinking about keeping my gun loaded with silver bullets in case I come across his path. What a bloated, rich, hypocritical, piece of shit. Someone give that gross pig a razor and some shaving cream for Pete's sake.
Well, if you shoot into everything all around his vital zone, blowing away nothing but fat, he'll be intensely uncomfortable and unhappy, and you still beat a murder rap.
But they'll have you over a barrel on [McCloud] "discharging a lethal weapon into a public nuisance."[/McCloud]
Everybody I know hates Michael Moore.
You should expand your social circle.
"Everybody I like hates Michael Moore" might be better?
I like his movies, but not his politics. Really don't see where the two intersect unless he pushes his opinions down my throat.
Oh yeah he's doing just that. hmm
I recon that Michael Moore sticks much closer to the truth than both Hollywood and the White House. The thing is that Moore has far more important things to say than Hollywood and the White House put together and what he has to say will effect the whole world in a more positive way, rather than the destructive way that the others do.
Well said Dr.
See all this is is just so much intellectual discussion until I go see in another thread that Bri is having to think about the cost of her pills. That the insurance companies won't cover the cost of anti-nausea medication for two thirds of her treatment.....that she is having to do that kind of maths at all. Makes me so fucking angry I could smash something up. Politics be fucked, our friend is suffering. And her suffering could be alleviated as easily as swallowing a tablet if the healthcare system she has no choice but to work within did its job properly. I'm not saying ours is perfect, and God knows there are gaps in the net...but there's got to be a better way than the current American healthcare system, when Bri can't get the pills she needs to get through this without having her days wrecked by constant nausea.
The primary goal of any health insurance company is to make profit. To take as much money in and pay as little money out as they possibly can. How, please tell me, how can that lead to good healthcare?
Hey I'm not saying, but you reckon your system would have paid the £40,000 for the experimental treatments?
May I have your attention please?
[size=10]NO MATTER HOW MANY FUCKING TIMES THEY RECOUNTED, HE STILL WON.[/size]
Losing the popular vote and winning the electoral college is always possible. It's how the system works. And this wasn't the first time this happened.
(Incidentally, the nonsense related to Gore's attempt to steal (yes, steal) the election is what cemented my disillusionment with the Democrat party that had started with the blowjob)
This is why the electoral college needs to be done away with. It's archaic and antiquated, and no longer needed. Some people stupidly say it prevents more popular states from having more of a say than the smaller states but that's bullshit. 1 person = 1 vote. The way it's setup right now is 1 person's vote in a rural state = 3 votes in a more populated state.
I know we're not from the UK, but my aunt has been having 'experimental treatment' for her cancer for the last 5yrs. It's all subsidised, although because she has private health insurance, she chooses to stay in a private hospital for her treatment.
Hey I'm not saying, but you reckon your system would have paid the £40,000 for the experimental treatments?
Depends on a number of factors, but often yes. A friend of mine was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis about ten years ago and was put onto an experimental treatment for two years. Cost to the national health service: approx. £30k; cost to my friend: £6.75 a month for standard prescription charge.
Hey! No fighting in my name! ;)
I'm in a clinical trial---there are six "arms" to this trial and you are randomly placed in an "arm"---I'm in the most traditional "arm" of the possible treatments. I went into the trial only because THE TRIAL WILL PAY FOR SOME OF THE TESTING I NEED. They pay for some blood work, some pre-chemo diagnostics (eg. the whole body CT I got) and some u/a's. What they are doing in the trial is switching the traditional sequence of chemo (traditional: A/C first, taxotere second. Trial: taxotere first, A/C second) OR the A/C taxotere with something extra added---don't ask me what.
Anyway--thanks for the concern, DanaC. I know that, somehow, I'll be ok. If I can't afford it and can't find someone to help with cost---I still might be ok without it. I have a very cheap anti-nausea drug called compazine that, added with ativan and dexamethasone (both pretty cheap) might work ,too.
If'n I was there I would get you some weed
Sweeeeeet!
srly, thanks, all of you, for being so supportive and caring.
now. can anybody mail me some percs? ;)
:cool: I think Y's gotcha there, Bruce.
[SIZE="3"]IS THIS THE THREAD WHERE WE COMBINE DELIBERATE MISDIRECTION WITH MASSIVE ALL-CAPS?[/SIZE]
"Everybody I like hates Michael Moore" might be better?
Well stated.
I like his movies, but not his politics. Really don't see where the two intersect unless he pushes his opinions down my throat.
Oh yeah he's doing just that. hmm
To bad his "facts" are so distorted and cherry picked that they really turn out to be BS when taken as a whole.
...there's got to be a better way than the current American healthcare system ...
There is - and it's been in use in many countries for a long, long time.
..... you reckon your system would have paid the £40,000 for the experimental treatments?
If that question is to me then the answer is probably
YES.
The thing is that the U.S. sees tax money as the government's property and so it’s hoarded for "their own” benefit such as politicians and big business scratching one another's back and getting fat on the profits while the underprivileged suck on moss-covered rocks for their sustenance.
We, on the other hand, see tax money as insurance for the whole population i.e. the individual citizen. The funds are there for us when we need it. Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t that the whole idea with democratic, political policies? :f187:
while the underprivileged suck on moss-covered rocks for their sustenance.
You're so deluded about life in America that it is mystifying. Moss-covered rocks are for the middle class. Nothing so fancy for those poor bastards who pull the weeds from my yard.
Just to bring up a dead issue...
If all absentee ballots in all states that were date stamped by the deadline were counted... Bush most likely would have won the popular vote. States don't count the absentee ballots unless the margin between the candidates is smaller than the number of absentee ballots received. Otherwise its viewed as a waste of time and effort to count them. One prime example - Texas. Texas did not count absentee ballots (they didn't need to). A large percentage of the military is... guess what... from Texas and Republican. Also, the whole date stamp issue... military members can't control the postal system. It doesn't get stamped until it reaches our golden shores... so some poor soldier stuck in Iraq or Afghanistan or Korea did his civic duty by filling out the ballot in a timely manner, put it in the mail... only to have it sit on some loading dock or some warehouse for weeks. Its not like the military heard Bush was loosing on the day of the election and they all ran out and grabbed an absentee ballot and put it in the mail. Also, you have to request an absentee ballot weeks in advance. So even to just receive the absentee ballot means you already went through the effort of requesting one, and are thus intending to vote. People that don't intend to vote don't waste their time to request an absentee ballot. It took several phones call for me from Japan to Texas in 2004 to get my absentee ballot because I hadn't voted in 4 years (no surprise there) so they had dropped me from the roles. I had to dig up an old voter registration card (very fortunate I keep all records) and fax it to them so they could look in the archives for my records.
Also, its not only military overseas that use absentee ballots. Service members stationed in North Carolina but registered in California use absentee ballots. Heck, your cousin Sue from Timbucktoo can use an absentee ballot because she can't get away from the kids to vote, and Uncle Ed can use and absentee ballot because he'll be traveling outside the state on election day.
A large percentage of the military is... guess what... from Texas and Republican.
That is a false statement, everything after that is really nul and void.
No, you're wrong. The "west south central" (mostly Texas) has the largest recruitment distribution. Not a lie, a fact. Mind telling me why you think I'm wrong?
BTW, 15 years of seeing SSNs for military members I have seen a large number starting with 459... that's a Texas SSN. Not to mention... Almost anyone ever stationed in Texas decides to get residence there... why, no income tax. They'll leave and get stationed in North Carolina or California, but keep that Texas residency just to not pay state taxes. And most validate this residency by... you guessed it... registering to vote.
So therefore everything you wrote is nul and void, according to your rules.
Even if you won't believe the statistics that there's a lot of people from Texas in the military... it does not change the other facts. They did not count their absentee ballots, along with 42 other states, because the margin between the candidates was so large it did not necesitate the count. Therefore it cannot be said with any certainty that Kerry won the popular vote.
Enjoy being voided.
Absentee ballot rules vary from state to state. Here in PA they are counted at precinct level, and never not counted.
You're so deluded about life in America that it is mystifying. Moss-covered rocks are for the middle class. Nothing so fancy for those poor bastards who pull the weeds from my yard.
But wouldn't the weeds be more nourishing than moss? Jesus! Ain't your weed-pullers priviledged bastards!
No, you're wrong. The "west south central" (mostly Texas) has the largest recruitment distribution. Not a lie, a fact. Mind telling me why you think I'm wrong?
BTW, 15 years of seeing SSNs for military members I have seen a large number starting with 459... that's a Texas SSN. Not to mention... Almost anyone ever stationed in Texas decides to get residence there... why, no income tax. They'll leave and get stationed in North Carolina or California, but keep that Texas residency just to not pay state taxes. And most validate this residency by... you guessed it... registering to vote.
So therefore everything you wrote is nul and void, according to your rules.
Even if you won't believe the statistics that there's a lot of people from Texas in the military... it does not change the other facts. They did not count their absentee ballots, along with 42 other states, because the margin between the candidates was so large it did not necesitate the count. Therefore it cannot be said with any certainty that Kerry won the popular vote.
Enjoy being voided.
I know about the tax thing because I did it for 20 years. None of us are really Texans, in fact 90% are probably not Texans. We did not do it by registering to vote, we did it by checking the box on the paper they pass around on your pay stubs to state where you would like to claim your state of residency, well Texas is what everyone put because of the lack of state tax. I would venture to say that many military people do not vote at all, at least not until the 2000 election.
I know about the tax thing because I did it for 20 years. None of us are really Texans, in fact 90% are probably not Texans. We did not do it by registering to vote, we did it by checking the box on the paper they pass around on your pay stubs to state where you would like to claim your state of residency, well Texas is what everyone put because of the lack of state tax. I would venture to say that many military people do not vote at all, at least not until the 2000 election.
Many in the military vote... probably a higher percentage than the general population. Something about the military pay raise being tied to who's in office. Second, you actually have to have a legal reason to claim Texas. Read the rules. Residency is required. One way to 'prove' residency is registering to vote. I claim Texas residency, I've lived there on and off for 30+ years, and I used to be registered to vote there. I am a Texan by birth. I'm really a Texan! I voted absentee from Texas in 2000 and 2004... and neither election was my ballot counted - the margin between candidates was so large that there was no need to count absentee ballots - it would not have changed the election. I'm now registered in Virginia where I live, and will vote in person so my vote will actually be counted.
Back to my original point, where my statement of fact that a large percentage of the military comes from Texas, but some claimed that was a lie... here's proof. One is a recent article (bottom line, Texas ranks #1 in recruiting), and an older table (Texas is #2 in 1999 and 2003). And that's just recruiting. That doesn't count the number that change their residency (and voting) to Texas when they get stationed there.
BTW, another favorite state for military to claim is Florida. Again, tax purposes... and a lot of people get stationed there. In fact, the states with the most military personnel stationed there are Virginia, North Carolina, Georgia, Florida, Texas, and California (see DoD, Selected Manpower Statistics, Fiscal Year 2002
http://web1.whs.osd.mil/mmid/M01/fy02/m01fy02.pdf). Between 5% and 13.8% of the military population is stationed in each of these states. Over a third of the armed forces is concentrated in these 6 states. There's a fairly high chance that if you stick around the service long enough, you'll be stationed in at least one of those states. So those that get stationed in a tax free (or military tax free) state like, hmmm Florida or Texas, tend to claim and then keep that residency over any other state they land in. In 15 years, I've been stationed in 5 of those 6 states. Got Texas residency and kept it for the last 12 years, through 6 more moves. Kept my voter registration there until last year.
Tennessee and Pennsylvania also have good tax laws favorable to the military, but many don't claim those states because they never lived there and there's a much smaller chance of ever being stationed there (Tennesse has less than 1% of the force there, and Pennsylvania has less than 2% of the force there).
People in the military have a much higher incentive to vote than the general population. Our entire livelihood depends on the outcome of elections. Reagan gave us raises. Clinton slashed the force, forcing many out, while increasing our op-tempo to wonderful places like Bosnia and Kosovo and Haiti. There is a real fear among military personnel that a democrat will come in, withdraw from Iraq (which is a good thing) and then completely slash the DoD like Clinton did (bad for career military who will loose their job). And lets not forget the democrats have a history of bashing the military, like Kerry - "You know, education, if you make the most of it, if you study hard and do your homework, and you make an effort to be smart, uh, you can do well. If you don't, you get stuck in Iraq." Not exactly winning over the military vote. That encourages military members to get out and vote and ensure idiots don't command our forces.
I'll probably vote democrat and pray my job doesn't get slashed.
San Antonio Express-News
January 23, 2008
Texas Is Top State For Army Recruiting
By Sig Christenson, Express-News
The good news on the Army recruiting front is that Texas is No. 1. The bad news: the young boots are less educated.
A report released Tuesday by the National Priorities Project found that Texas and Harris County produced more Army recruits last year than any other state or county in America. Bexar County ranked fourth, sending 814 people to boot camp.
But the number of "high-quality" recruits has continued a downward slide nationwide since 2004. Recruits in that group hold a traditional high school diploma and score in the upper half of the Armed Forces Qualification Test. Only 44.6 percent did that last year, down from 60.9 percent in 2004.
"All of this is going to impact on the ability of the (Army) to perform the mission," University of Maryland military sociologist David Segal said. "They are not going to perform as well in Iraq, and they are far less prepared to go anywhere else."
The nonpartisan Northampton, Mass.-based group analyzed Army Recruiting Command data on more than 67,000 first-time recruits who entered basic training in the 2007 fiscal year. It found that 70.7 percent of recruits nationwide graduated from high school in 2007, down from 83.5 percent in 2005.
Army Recruiting Command spokesman Douglas Smith said the service's numbers for recruits with traditional diplomas were higher than those in the National Priorities Project's report. He said 79.07 percent of active-duty recruits held high school diplomas last year.
But Smith agreed the numbers reflected a general downturn in graduates from the past — 81.2 percent in 2006, 87 percent in 2005 and 92.45 in 2004. He said his office had not seen the report and declined to comment.
One apparent difference in the numbers is the Army's inclusion of recruits with military experience. Once small, the segment of prior-service recruits has risen substantially since 2005. The National Priorities Project's Anita Dancs said her group has not included them in its analysis because the primary focus of past Pentagon and congressional research has been on first-time recruits.
Dancs said Texas recruits with a high school diploma were higher than the national average, at 75 percent. The state ranked 16th in "Tier 1" boots, those with a 12th-grade education or better.
Bexar County and Harris County, which produced 1,025 recruits, bested the nation last year in that category, too, but Texas reflected the nationwide drop in both the number of recruits and their quality — 85.6 percent Tier 1 recruits in 2005 compared with 76.1 percent the following year.
The number of Texans joining up, meanwhile, peaked at 2.4 per 1,000 in 2006 and fell to 2.2 last year, Dancs said. Harris and Bexar counties showed a similar drop-off, but both were higher than the national average of 1.6 per 1,000.
Dancs did not have education data for the Houston and San Antonio areas from previous years. But the Army's Alamo City recruiting battalion reported that just half of all active-duty boots and one in three reservists were high school grads.
The San Antonio Recruiting Battalion, No. 1 in the nation the past three years, signed 1,510 active-duty recruits in 2007 and 333 for the Army Reserve, said Maj. Neil Mahabir.When asked to explain why fewer recruits here held diplomas, he said, "The demographics in San Antonio and our region may be a lot less high school graduates."
National Priorities Project Executive Director Greg Speeter blamed the war in Iraq for the downturn, saying youths "are naturally thinking twice before signing up to fight an unnecessary war with no end in sight."
Retired Army Lt. Gen. Ted Stroup, deputy chief of staff for the Army from 1994 to 1996, said a dichotomy is developing as the war rages in Iraq and Afghanistan. People support the troops in public, but authority figures known as "influencers" may be warning young people away from service.
"You could say that 2008 may be the make or break year for Army recruiting," he said.
"Just on the basis of chance I would have expected to see one or two states go against the trend, and I'm just not seeing that here," said Segal, the University of Maryland military sociologist. "It means that it's a very robust trend. It means the Army is really in trouble, and I think the Army knows that."
The last time the Army looked this bad was in 1980, he recalled, when the service's then-chief of staff Gen. Edward C. "Shy" Meyer warned Congress that the service was going "hollow" — becoming a shell of its former self.
"I don't think it's hollow yet, but that's the direction we're going in," Segal commented.
"We are weakening the Army, we are straining the Army, we are nowhere near a hollow army," said Brookings Institution analyst Michael O'Hanlon, who added that the Army is "in far better shape" than in that era.
But former Reagan administration assistant defense secretary Lawrence Korb disagreed.
"The Army is low quality," he said, noting that the service allowed 1,620 felons to join last year. "I think when you get down that low, you're broken."
I was a Texan for 20 years and lived there twice, once on my first assignment to OBC for 8 weeks, and another time for training for 9 months. I still contend that most military people do not vote.
A bit dated, but from the 2000 election results (if it is to believed since I don't see an original source for the statements and data):
According to the Associated Press, 30 percent of military voters who requested absentee ballots in 2000 did not receive them in time to have their vote counted. In 2000, roughly 250,000 military voters applied to vote absentee. Now, with hundreds of thousands of additional troops posted in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere, the number of military personnel interested in voting absentee is expected to soar. Nearly 350,000 applications had already been requested as of mid-July.
There are 1.5 million troops on active duty:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/end-strength.htm
Even if you said 350,000 voted absentee that is only 23%. Most military people are not stationed in their state of residence, so they cannot vote there.
In my 14 years years in the military I can honestly say that I saw a shockingly low level of voter participation. Many talked about it, but most didn't bother to get the ballot and if they did they didn't send it in.
In my 14 years years in the military I can honestly say that I saw a shockingly low level of voter participation. Many talked about it, but most didn't bother to get the ballot and if they did they didn't send it in.
I was in 13 years and I'd say less that 30% of my friends submitted votes because most of them think their ballots won't count. Even today my wife thinks the early votes don't count.