Post-Traumatic Slave Disorder? You gotta be shitting me....
CULTURE OF EXCUSE: Slave owners beat their slaves, says attorney Randall
Vogt. Therefore, it's "justified" for black men to beat their sons.
Vogt is defending Isaac Cortez Bynum, who beat his 2-year-old son to
death, and says he'll use a "post traumatic slave syndrome" defense "in
a general way" in Bynum's Beaverton, Ore., murder trial. "If you are
African American and you are living in America, you have been
impacted," says Joy DeGruy-Leary, assistant professor at Portland State
University's Graduate School of Social Work, who originated the slave
syndrome theory. The boy's autopsy showed he had been abused over a
lengthy period and had suffered brain injury, a broken neck, broken
ribs, and scores of whip marks all over his body. When shown the boy's
autopsy photos, DeGruy-Leary said the injury pattern "falls in the
rubric" of "normal" for descendants of slaves. (Portland Oregonian)
Oh, please. One more excuse as to why someone isn't responsible for their actions.... :angry:
That defense is not only pathetic, its downright racist. Like, "Well, what else do you expect from Black folks? They're all descended from slaves, you know." Jeez, where do you find these things, Lady Sid? Each one you post is more depressing than the last.
If he gets away with this shit, then if I kill someone in an oven, I can claim "Post-Traumatic Nazi Disorder"?
Just another way for some jerk-off professor to get his name in a textbook. "You can't be guilty of beating your child to death! It's the fault of those evil white men 300 years ago!"
I believe the word I'm looking for is - brace yourself - BULLSHIT!!!!!
That defense is not only pathetic, its downright racist. Like, "Well, what else do you expect from Black folks? They're all descended from slaves, you know." Jeez, where do you find these things, Lady Sid? Each one you post is more depressing than the last.
I get a lot of it from bizarre, strange news updates I get in my email. The offbeat stuff is a lot more interesting than the run-of-the-mill news one sees every day.
I posted it becuse I found it absurd...the fact that someone was probably given a grant to develop such a stupid theory, and the fact that not only did this person come right out and advertise his bullshit ideas, but that someone actually has the nerve to insult twelve jurors and a judge by using it as a defense of a child killer.
Sidhe
Sickening. Says a lot about the culture of violence in your 'what good' thread Mari. These burns can last through generations, according to the perpetrators. It's no excuse. When does it all end?
Can we get a source for this? Fair chance it's satire. Chances of it working are next to none.
It wouldn't be QUITE so absurd if the man who beat his son to death had actually been a slave who grew up under the whip of a plantation owner and had endured the hell on earth that was the life of a typical slave at the time. Plenty of people who were abused while growing up have shown to do the same to others, whatever that abuse may have been. But this post traumatic slave symdrone business is, at the LEAST, approx. 110 years too late. And as a black person, I'm bloody sick and tired of my race being used as an excuse for horrible acts and deplorable behavior.
And who knows what ridiculousness might come of this if the jury actually falls for it. I can see it now...a white guy will beat his son to death and claim the same, because his great great grandmother was black and was a slave. He couldn't help it, it was in his blood! Feh.
The story is legit.
Judge rejects slave trauma as defense for killing
<snip>----
Noting the theory has not been proven or ever offered in court, Washington County Circuit Judge Nancy W. Campbell recently threw out DeGruy-Leary's pretrial testimony.
But the judge said she would reconsider the defense for Bynum's September trial if his lawyer can show the slave theory is an accepted mental disorder with a valid scientific basis and specifically applies to this case.
----</snip>
I don't really have any comment. Some bozo creates a theory out of whole cloth and some attorney picks it up because his client is otherwise well on his way to a 25-year stint in an ass-pounding penetentiary (they love child abusers in the big house).
Can we get a source for this? Fair chance it's satire. Chances of it working are next to none.
www.bizarrenews.com... this post traumatic slave symdrone business is, at the LEAST, approx. 110 years too late. And as a black person, I'm bloody sick and tired of my race being used as an excuse for horrible acts and deplorable behavior.
And who knows what ridiculousness might come of this if the jury actually falls for it.
Hear, Hear! :thumpsup:
"The boy's autopsy showed he had been abused over a
lengthy period and had suffered brain injury, a broken neck, broken
ribs, and scores of whip marks all over his body. "
I'm sorry, but that's rage, not post-traumatic- ANYTHING- syndrome.
I hate it when people use something like this to excuse bad behavior. I look at it this way: I didn't own slaves, probably had family enslaved somewhere myself (American Indian), but so did the Irish, the Chinese (think the railroads), and others. It's not an excuse for bad behavior, because none of us, personally, were slaves.
Goddamn, slavery is over. It's been over. Nobody alive today was a slave, and nobody alive today was a slave owner. Why can't people stop bringing it up as an accusation or excuse for this, that, and the other?
Sidhe
While this is obviously asinine, you're wrong on one point. Slavery isn't dead, it's alive and well all over the place. Brothels across the western world and asia, maids in the middle east and on occasion in western countries (hell the US has been leaning on Israel to put a stop to it quite recently), the white slave trade, particularly in the middle east...the list goes on. Nice thought but these things still happen.
This guy is still an ass though.
*ding ding ding*
common sense has been detected in this area, please evacuate immediately.
well said, sidhe.
While this is obviously asinine, you're wrong on one point. Slavery isn't dead, it's alive and well all over the place. Brothels across the western world and asia, maids in the middle east and on occasion in western countries (hell the US has been leaning on Israel to put a stop to it quite recently), the white slave trade, particularly in the middle east...the list goes on. Nice thought but these things still happen.
This guy is still an ass though.
I'm pretty sure it was only in referrence to America. We know it goes on elsewhere.
I watched one of those christian channels where they take the money you send them and they head to the Sudan to buy people out of slavery with it.
35 USD if I recall. I wonder if they have the foresight to realize that day after that the ex-slave will be right back where they were and the slave trader is 35 USD richer?
Don't think it doesn't happen in the US, it does, usually maids from South America.
Some of those guys offer comprehensive services to people afterwards to get people on their feet, it varies. I've seen this stuff happen, it's particularly common in cambodia, you can buy a 16-18y.o girl for around $2-300USD. That's a fun situation let me tell you, I mean what the fuck can you do, even if you do try and play the knight in shining armour, how the fuck do you explain to her and what the hell is she going to do afterwards. The culture that exists around places like K11 is a hard thing to kill. There are NGOs that do help, if it irks you, that is the best option. As far as I'm aware the Eastern European stuff goes for around $7-10000USD.
Salves are the least of the problems in Sudan.
*ding ding ding*
common sense has been detected in this area, please evacuate immediately.
well said, sidhe.
Thanks--but don't let anyone else hear you say that
;) It might start a riot or something...someone agreeing with my radical notions....
Hey, it can happen....
Sidhe
Don't think it doesn't happen in the US, it does, usually maids from South America.
Some of those guys offer comprehensive services to people afterwards to get people on their feet, it varies.
Yeah, we've been using this one on people ever since we started with the chinese and irish.
Salves are the least of the problems in Sudan.
I know, I was just practicing my topicality. My point was more that people weren't looking at how to solve the problem, just the symptom.
Sheesh, yet another reason for someone to look at me cockeyed and say, "There you people go again", or "Why can't you people let the past go", etc. blah blah. :meanface: :rolleyes:
I say that while also saying I do NOT agree with what this man is trying to get away with. He is the lowest of the low on the human scale, and deserved to be whipped and abused in the same manner that he did his son. :mad2:
[forestgump]"And that's all I have to say about that."[/forestgump]
well ... can I claim PTIS (post traumatic indenture syndrome)?
Now, I don't believe this PTSS shit for a second, but .. the basic problem here is that IF this guy were truly channeling some ancestral energy, he would have remembered one or two simple facts ... a slaveowner typically would NOT beat his valuable property to death or the point of death. Dead slaves don't work. Seriously injured slaves don't work and they still have to be fed. It's not economically sensible to do that. It would be doubly foolish to beat a child ... a slave you didn't have to pay for and could resell at a profit was highly prized. One didn't have to train them out of any bad habits like knowing about freedom and such ...
Personally, I think the abuser should be staked out on the public square and be run over by a especially slow steamroller, feet first.
But then I have some strong opinions regarding people who harm children.
But then I have some strong opinions regarding people who harm children.
And you express them eloquently. That steamroller idea is fantastic. My only concern is that he would be dead well before the job was done. Surely we can make him suffer longer? Perhaps the steamroller bit should be a finale of sorts.
And you express them eloquently. That steamroller idea is fantastic. My only concern is that he would be dead well before the job was done. Surely we can make him suffer longer? Perhaps the steamroller bit should be a finale of sorts.
Oh I'm all about slow, painful torture to those who clearly deserve it. How about he be riddled with paper cuts, then dipped into rubbing alcohol, and then set on fire? :scream: :D
I've heard (and I have no source to back this up) that being burned to death is actually a reasonable way to go because the nervous system overloads and shuts down long before you die; i.e. no more pain is felt. Anyone with less work to do today care to confirm/repudiate this? :)
I've heard (and I have no source to back this up) that being burned to death is actually a reasonable way to go because the nervous system overloads and shuts down long before you die; i.e. no more pain is felt. Anyone with less work to do today care to confirm/repudiate this? :)
Depends upon the method used. Many of those who die fighting forest fires, for example, go pretty quickly; they die from suffocation from inhaling fire which happens in seconds (I just got through reading a book on the firefighters who died fighting the fire outside Glenwood Springs, Colorado some years back. 14 people died fighting that fire. They all died from aphixiation.)
A slow burning would be true torture, however.
I've heard (and I have no source to back this up) that being burned to death is actually a reasonable way to go because the nervous system overloads and shuts down long before you die; i.e. no more pain is felt. Anyone with less work to do today care to confirm/repudiate this? :)
It is true that the nerve endings are basically completely burned away when you have full thickness 3rd degree burns ... but there are usually combinations of 1st thru 3rd degree on the body. It hurts like hell. All over. Also, I suspect that the same sort of "phantom limb" effect in amputations might occur for serious burn patients as well ... the nerve endings are GONE, but the nerves still transmit some kind of information back to the brain indicating something ain't quite right.
Lingering, semi or fully conscious in that state is not pretty.
The primary causes of death from burn injury are bacterial infection and dehydration.
One study I found showed that 96% of burn injury patients survived to be released from the hospital (That particular study didn't address extent of burn, so may cover everything from ass burns from lighting farts to full body burns).
Oh my fucking god. Are you guys for real? I can't believe what I've just read. It's like something out of the Nazi handbook, mmmmhhmmmm methods of torture, which one shall we use this time, bwa ha ha ha ha ha. Makes you just as bad as the perpetrators you accuse.
I am seriously worried about your states of mind. God forbid this vicious, sadistic, retaliatory attitude is representative of most Americans.
Never underestimate humanity's ability to find interesting and creative ways to kill each other.
I think if you ran a poll 'Should child molestors be tortured to death' the manjorty of americans would say yes.
"Never underestimate humanity's ability to find interesting and creative ways to kill each other."
Can I steal that?
With my views in IP it's be hypocritical to say no ;)
I think if you ran a poll 'Should child molestors be tortured to death' the manjorty of americans would say yes.
A far greater majority of Europeans would advocate torture than Americans. After all, Europe embraces its centuries long, rich tradition of brutal torture that would turn the stomach of most Americans. Hell, you Euro types even have torture
museums and monuments dedicated to your history of torture. You could fill a library with the books that Europe has published on torture techniques. Nowhere else in the world can such things be found. Europe takes great pride in its history of brutalizing its own citizens.
When it comes to torture and brutality, jag, your European ancestors wrote the book so spare us your self-rightous indignation.
And here we have a classic example of PTTS (post traumatic torture syndrome) because Jag has shown imagination in methods of killing people slowly and has European blood in his veins.
Isnt this exactly the point we were making about how flat out ridiculous the PTSD concept is? Since Jag didn't actually do any of the torture, come up with any of the famous devices used and is hundreds of years removed from the time and people who used them, how can he be self-righteous about the torture concept in general?
Besides, Europe doesn't deserve all the credit. Central and South America had (have?) interesting methods of killing people slowly, as well as some of the 'standard' ways, so does Asia and South Asia. Africa's a treat too. Humans are the only animal that can rationalize and take joy in killing its own kind. Torture's as universal as people are.
Yes, and we were talking about current attitudes, not ancient techniques.
Yes, and we were talking about current attitudes, not ancient techniques.
Actually, we're talking about jag's assumptions about Americans. I referenced history to undermine the assumption that Americans are more "open to the idea" of torture than Europeans are. Its not in our culture and its not in our history whereas European culture and history is saturated with it.
Subtly wrapped inside jag's ever-so-predicatable anti-American opinion is the implication of moral superiority. I point out Europe's history not to allege American moral superiority nor to embarrass Europe but to refute jag's assertion of European morally superiority.
Jag is not "in touch" with the American people and merely extends his hatred for our government to our people. America just had to face one of the more disgusting moments in its institutional history - the child abuse scandal of the Catholic Church. At no time during the course of that scandal did I hear calls for the perpetrating priests to be tortured - not on TV, not in the mainstream press, the independent press, the underground press, mainstream talk shows nor local talk shows. Not once. I think that experience alone pretty much refutes jag's point not that there was every any basis to it to begin with.
Jag's allowed that opinion isn't he? Frankly, Bush isn't really 'in touch' with the average American either and he LIVES here.
And perhaps there wasn't outcry in the media for the priests torture, per say, but that sentiment has been expressed. On the whole, we as a society are so scared of being ostrasized and the media is very selective in what it shows. The press is the press and they're going to pander to their interests. If their interests aren't in covering how much people might want these priests flogged then have their hearts cut out, they won't cover it. There's a more interesting story in exposing the sins of the holy anyway.
We have torture here in America, but it's not so much physical as it is mental and emotional. Take our spiderweb of laws in three flavors (local, state, federal), add some psychologists, a few lawyers and hard-nosed judges and you have the ingredients for traumatizing a person in the head (or wallet) for the rest of his life. Of course, this is not to say this doesn't happen anywhere else; it's just that for torture, while others tortured you by letting 4 horses tear you apart or some such, America developed and maintains a method of torture that can last much much longer and can be much more damaging in the long run. Excessive mental stress, gone unchecked, is slow death after all.
[SIZE=1]edit: spelling[/SIZE]
I understand it must be extremely frustrating when Americans are painted with the same brush as Dubya et al, and that foreign policy does not automatically extend into public opinion. I feel the same when people use British history (which is full of barbarity) to refute any argument about another country's systematic torture. But 'you did it first' is simply not a valid argument anymore. I am not saying American history is any more tarnished than European history, or that Americans today are in any respect 'inferior', and I don't think jag was either. Just that, and I am only going on contact I have had with Americans here and elsewhere, the prevailing attitude seems to be exceedingly retaliatory, and I refer to the death penalty, the 'eye-for-an-eye' mentality, response to terrorism, and war.
There is an overwhelming tendency to respond to hatred with hatred, violence with violence. I see immense inferiority issues in the government and the people, with great national pride often turning to blind patriotism in the face of adversity, and foreign policy continually designed to reinforce America's position as 'king of the world'. This status you pride yourselves on can only lead to hostility from what you may consider 'lesser' countries, and betrays an underlying insecurity resulting from various attacks on your confidence from Vietnam to 9/11.
Your catholic church example does not prove anything either way. I am talking about attitude - attitude that you may not see openly published in your national publications, more the kind of attitude you see exposed in forums and discussion groups, and the kind people like Michael Moore are so kind to point out.
The couple of North Americans I have actually met have been lovely people, and have wanted almost from the outset to rid themselves of the perception of America that the world has voted as trigger happy, self-centred and status-obsessed. They assure me that, unfortunately, this attitude is reflective of wider opinion.
It fills me with sadness that in 2004 this kind of attitude still exists, and dominates. We all want the same things - to live, to eat, drink and sleep comfortably. Why can't we all just get on with it, and leave puny politics, greed and creative killings out of it?
I am only going on contact I have had with Americans here and elsewhere, the prevailing attitude seems to be exceedingly retaliatory, and I refer to the death penalty, the 'eye-for-an-eye' mentality, response to terrorism, and war.
There is an overwhelming tendency to respond to hatred with hatred, violence with violence...
I think you are painting with too broad a brush, Catwoman. You admit that the North Americans you have actually met in person are nothing like the "typical" American you are talking about.
You also say that your opinions are being formed in part by the discussion forums like this one. It is possible that people are playing devils advocate just a little? For example, in the thread about the teacher, even you were arguing a position that you later admitted you didn't hold.
Sure, some people believe in the death penalty, and post tiring repetitive messages about it. Don't let repetitive posts by one or two people skew your perception of what many other people think. There are a lot of americans opposed to the death penalty, and support for it has been declining steadily in recent years.
Link
The US is a pretty evenly divided country. The last presidential election was split 50/50.
I disagree with many of the specific actions taken by Bush, but the underlying theory he has about fighting terrorism is a good one. We can't defend against terrorists, so if we are going to fight them, we have to take the battle to them. Attack them first in their countries. The problem is that we have to be careful to not cause resentment against us and create more terrorism as a result. It's a delicate balancing act, and Bush has failed at it.
We should also have a carrot-stick approach. Bush is using a stick, but not providing a carrot. That's a mistake too.
I am seriously worried about your states of mind. God forbid this vicious, sadistic, retaliatory attitude is representative of most Americans.
Beats the hell out of the british attitude of blaming and imprisoning the victim and letting the criminal go free in return for testifying against him.
Glatt, good point, well made, and taken.
Wolf I don't suppose you noticed the irony of your retaliatory post.
Well gee beestie, since catwoman has pointed out the utter irrelevancy of the events of the fucking middle ages I'll just have to get right into it.
I'm having great trouble expressing this so I'll be blunt. There are plenty of good, intelligent, creative and wonderful americans and I know a fair few.
It's a pity what we see over here is a self absorbed, decadent, dangerous, apathetic savages. This is no exaggeration. Frankly, threads like this don't do much to change that opinion and trust me, it's the prevailing one. I have seen nothing to suggest it is incorrect. Show me something and I might change my mind. I read widely, I watch the polls, I'm heavily involved in dissecting foreign policy and I've made a lot of money by analyzing situations, it's not like I'm just following popular opinion. Outside people I work with in various capacities and most of the people on here, every american I deal with has been obnoxious, ill informed and annoying. Hell at least once a week I'm asked by the staff at where I have lunch to explain to yet another bunch of overweight american tourists that we don't accept the goddamn euro, is if that fucking hard to understand what country you're in?
Yea, I'm angry, I genuinely hate the US as a country, you're the biggest danger to international peace, you're exporting you're toxic laws by forcing trade agreements, you slow down and try and stop any move to develop an international consensus on anything from the goddamn landmine treaty to environment protocols. What is there to like? Even your mainstream culture is a toxic ooze. You lead the road downhill to the lowest common denominator. There are plenty of great things in America and plenty of great americans but as a whole? No wonder most of the developed world dislikes Americans until they demonstrate some merit. I judge people individually and once I know them, they will be judged by their individual merits and flaws but you start with a negative preditposition because experience has created that.
Europe is no land of milk and honey but things don't seem to be anywhere near as bad here. We also don't don't have the infuriating smug patriotism that makes it doubly bad.
Until you've lived in and been a part of a country and its people for some time, it's very hard to really know what the average person of that country thinks about things. Even then, you'd only know sentiment regarding what's happening at the time you were there. No one should make sweeping generalizations based on tourists, movies or secondhand information dispersal, like polls. Polls and media reports will be colored to fit whatever statement the pollster or media outlet is trying to say. You can't look at someone's shoes and complain how uncomfortable they are without actually wearing them. And this goes for both ends of this particular spat.
It's a pity what we see over here is a self absorbed, decadent, dangerous, apathetic savages. This is no exaggeration. Frankly, threads like this don't do much to change that opinion and trust me, it's the prevailing one. I have seen nothing to suggest it is incorrect. Show me something and I might change my mind. I read widely, I watch the polls, I'm heavily involved in dissecting foreign policy and I've made a lot of money by analyzing situations, it's not like I'm just following popular opinion. Outside people I work with in various capacities and most of the people on here, every american I deal with has been obnoxious, ill informed and annoying...
Yea, I'm angry, I genuinely hate the US as a country, you're the biggest danger to international peace, you're exporting you're toxic laws by forcing trade agreements, you slow down and try and stop any move to develop an international consensus on anything from the goddamn landmine treaty to environment protocols. What is there to like? Even your mainstream culture is a toxic ooze. You lead the road downhill to the lowest common denominator. There are plenty of great things in America and plenty of great americans but as a whole? No wonder most of the developed world dislikes Americans until they demonstrate some merit. I judge people individually and once I know them, they will be judged by their individual merits and flaws but you start with a negative preditposition because experience has created that.
Europe is no land of milk and honey but things don't seem to be anywhere near as bad here. We also don't don't have the infuriating smug patriotism that makes it doubly bad.
Dear Jag,
With all due respect, which isn't much, Fuck you and the horse you rode in on.
Sincerely,
An American Savage
Well Jag, if that's the case I'd advise getting out, because if there really is that deep of a cultural break, then the US will not defend Europe next time, and all those Euro nations that have shamefully spent only 2% of their GDP on defense for decades because they thought NATO would live forever will get rolled.
I am saying that that is what popular opinion over here is, the situation is obviously more complex but most of the time we don't see much evidence of that. Politics and culture are complex and so are the reasons behind people's actions but shit, I have to deal with the fallout of irrational leadership of the 'leader of the free world' on an almost daily basis, as far as I'm concerned, I've got ample ground to be pissed. Benefit of the doubt is something you only get once. I've got plenty of evidence on one side, and little or none on the other, is my position, as a result of those facts, much of a surprise?
Such detailed replies, pointing out how obviously wrong I am such as lookout has done certainly help. They demonstrate a fair and balanced populous concerned about their world image. Go munch on some freedom fries you self defeating halfwit.
UT: The 60s called, they want their foreign policy back. Invade? Yes, China is going to invade I assume? Or maybe Russia?
That said, assuming bush does leave office things will get better on a political level at least. Bush as a certain toxicity that is hard to match, while he remains in office few leaders want to be seen near him, as soon as he leaves things will start to normalize.
jag, you are free to hate America all you want. I will not be drawn into the no-win situation of providing you with a never-ending list of America's accomplishments and contributions (and there are many) to make the world a better place in hopes of gaining your approval. I have no intention of justifying myself or my country to you.
What has your country done to make the world a better place? Justify your place at the world table or is it only America that needs to prove itself. And why should our patriotism - our love for our own country - bother anyone? I'm not ashamed to love America and what it stands for and I grow weary of being constantly put on the defensive for who we are. Who we are (**smug patriotism alert**) is the most successful and prosperous nation in the history of this planet and we did it without any input or help from Europe. Where else can a refugee from a despot arrive with $20.00 and go on to run a Fortune 500 company? That type of success is commonplace here. America is and will continue to be the land of dreams - no European country can even come close to providing that kind of opportunity - unless you call living on the dole or paying 70% taxes an opportunity. Americans are the most productive, hard-working and un-lazy people on earth. And in what other country would a film that is harshly critical of itself and its leader be a major blockbuster? Americans are the FIRST to be self-critical - our entire history is centered on that type of freedom.
I will, however, admit to one of the points in your post - America spends too much of its time, money and blood in places that we shouldn't. We have far too many of our citizens buried in foreign soil. I don't think Americans should die to defend the citizens of other countries unless those countries would do the same for us. Is there a Frenchman on earth who would lay down his life for America? Or for France for that matter?
Your mind is made up and there is little I can do about that. I can make one suggestion, however, - tell the dumbasses in the restaurant you eat at to put up a sign - "We do not accept the Euro from fatass American tourists" - is that so hard to come up with?
I don't really have a country so it's a little hard, some weeks I'm in the Uk, some in Switzerland, hell Australia on occasion.
The thing is though, no country really makes the world a better place, read the docterine of Enlightened Self Interest but most don't make quite as worse as the US does, that's the difference. Part of it is simply being the biggest fish in the pond at the moment, part sheer arrogance.
As for the rags to riches american dream stuff, if you can point out the 'no refugees are allowed to succeed' law on the books, please do, otherwise you have no point. Taxes may be higher but that's because we choose to have compassion on the poor rather than make healthcare more expensive for them than anyone else. Most successful state in history? Please. Try Rome.
Is there a frenchmen who would lay down his life for America? (now here is the point where I feel oddly jusitified in saying americans are ignorant of the world) Try most of Normandy, it's not just a beach in a history book, it's an entire region of France that still has strong links to the US, hell many villages laid down plaques in memory of 9/11. Of course then you do on to mention France, demonstrating not only your xenophobia but your arrogance as well. Heck many French troops are busy doing peacekeeping work in Africa. Might want to look into the origins of one of your national symbols as well.
It's interesting, this thread is bringing out the worst in everyone.
Ah this is pointless. My views will change when the situation changes which it no doubt will in the coming decades, until then there really is little to discuss here.
Jaguar, I'm not sure how to respond to your post, because you are shooting at targets all over the place. Let me summarize your post instead.
I understand you to be saying that when you get a chance to know an American, through this board or by working along side of them, you seem to think they are OK. But when you have superficial contact with one, you don't like them. That's understandable. I live in the Washington DC area. As the nation's capital, we get a lot of tourists here. They aren't familiar with the area or its customs, and they can be annoying as a result. They get in the way. For an American in a foreign country, the problem is even greater. If you had a chance to get to know those tourists and talk to them in depth, I'm certain that you would end up thinking many more of them are OK.
I understand that you don't care for US foreign policy. I can understand that, and won't even try to defend it. The US foreign policy is there to benefit our country, not yours. If both can benefit at the same time, that's great, but if there is a conflict, we will look out for our best interests. Feel free to hate us for it. I would too, if I were in your shoes. But understand that lots of times, our role as policeman of the world means that we need to take some positions (like the landmine one) that seem bad on the surface, but have good reasons backing them up. I would mention also that foreign policy changes somewhat from administration to administration, and the current administration is supported by only half the citizens of our country. There have been a lot of foreign policy missteps in this administration, but to judge an entire country based on the leadership is unfair. Especially when the leadership has such a tenuous grasp on power.
You don't like US entertainment. You think it is reaching for the lowest common denominator. Well, I'll agree with you on that one. But there are some good shows/movies that come out of that manure pile every once in a while. There are some gems from British TV, but there is a lot of crap there too.
Overall, I understand your frustration, but saying that you hate america as a nation is really going a little overboard, don't you think?
Yes, Jag. It must be tiresome to have to leave the villa and rub shoulders with the riff raff in the town below.
You're right, I need to be more clear.
Think of it as a ratio thing. The number of good experiences to bad is a very poor ratio indeed.
When I come across any external projection of the US, may it be legal, political, military or trade, it's negative. When I come across Americans on the balance it tends to be negative, many I do get on with are varying degrees, embarassed by the state of affairs. I come across next to no good and a heck of a lot of bad. I look at what the biggest threats on the horizon are, DRM/Trusted Computing enforcement, large scale datamining and privicy invasion, further extensions of copyright and IP law to name but a few and they all are being pushed most heavily by the US. Who leads the world on the lawsuit mentality, what country has government supported faith based programs? Which western governmentis most blatantly influenced by big business? (Italy being a close second there) Hate might be a strong word but it's certainly correct a times, it simply has come to embody so many things I dislike. That's the crux.
Jag, of course the foreign policy of the 60s, 70s and 80s is different from the foreign policy of the 00s, but if anything it should serve as notice that things change. The US was reminded of that by finger-wagging French and Dartmouth professors who noted the US may not always be the super-power it is now. No, if trends continue as they are it will be a super-super-power, because US growth continues to outstrip Euro growth and the Japanese, Koreans, etc. are not far behind.
You'll have even more US tourists to deal with and by the way, one of the reasons they are what they are, is that our lower-middle classes are rich enough to travel halfway around the world on holidays. That's why the ugly American is the Euro stereotype, because during the 50s and 60s they all went to Paris on tours because they could afford to, and there were a LOT of them.
By the way, Americans include a lot of African-looking people and Mexican-looking people and Asian-looking people so don't forget them in the stereotypes. A huge number of us are non-white at this point (about a third or more) so you may not recognize us.
And by the way the number-one name for newborns in Amsterdam is "Mohammed" so you soon may not recognize Europeans either.
And there are only a quarter of the UKers than USers, but don't tell me a good number of them don't bellow for their Watney's and fish and chips in your presence.
I'm developing the impression that Jag (and possibly other Europeans, although I do hesitate to paint with so broad a brush) only really likes Americans who are embarrased about being American.
I don't get those people, frankly. I've met and talked with a few. I still don't get them.
I'm developing the impression that Jag (and possibly other Europeans, although I do hesitate to paint with so broad a brush) only really likes Americans who are embarrased about being American.
Bullseye.
I really don't get your point UT. The growing ethnic diversity has bought both challanges and rewards everywhere, my old home, Australia, is incredibly multicultural, Melbourne has one of the biggest expat greek communities in the world, mixed in with huge Italian, Vietnamese, Chinese communities to boot. Hell the UK has a very high rate as well leading to the most excellent curry you ever will taste.
That said, beyond a bit of 'my country is better than your country so there', I still don't get your point.
Well if you don't like a perspective you're unlikely to have the easiest of relationships with it's proponants are you?
My point is I love you like a brother, man, don't ever change.
(Just so we're clear on this)
The couple of North Americans I have actually met have been lovely people, and have wanted almost from the outset to rid themselves of the perception of America that the world has voted as trigger happy, self-centred and status-obsessed. They assure me that, unfortunately, this attitude is reflective of wider opinion.
Quite honestly, I really don't give a damn what the world thinks of the US anymore. People will think what they want, can't stop them. Situations closer to home are worth worrying about, IMO. Amazing when things get put into their proper perspective, how most things become...petty and worthless to even think about.
It fills me with sadness that in 2004 this kind of attitude still exists, and dominates. We all want the same things - to live, to eat, drink and sleep comfortably. Why can't we all just get on with it, and leave puny politics, greed and creative killings out of it?
Two words: Pandora's Box. ;)
The couple of North Americans I have actually met have been lovely people, and have wanted almost from the outset to rid themselves of the perception of America that the world has voted as trigger happy, self-centred and status-obsessed. They assure me that, unfortunately, this attitude is reflective of wider opinion.
Owning, liking, enjoying, and carrying firearms for personal defense <> "trigger happy."
I haven't shot anybody at this point. Neither have the majority of legal firearms owners in this country.
Such detailed replies, pointing out how obviously wrong I am such as lookout has done certainly help. They demonstrate a fair and balanced populous concerned about their world image. Go munch on some freedom fries you self defeating halfwit.
mmm, yer mom too. Jag - i don't really give a damn what you think of america, americans, or me in particular. i feel no urge to defend my nation, which i am proud of, to you or anyone. there is no point, you are a poisoned well. anything positive i could point out about us, you would fire off a "yeah, but what about..." and i just don't give enough of a shit about you.
as far as i can tell you are just a miserable individual looking for someone to blame everything on, so go right ahead, blame the ills of the world on america, we can take it, we always do, and we will still be the first to send rescue crews when a tragedy strikes somewhere in the world, we'll still send our financial aid packages out and we'll still offer what we have to those in need. but don't worry about that, you couldn't possibly have the time, what with picking our faults apart(which we have plenty of), and all.
- as far as your comment about french peacekeepers being in africa - please, i've worked with the french military. i would rather go to war with a battalion of Jehovah's Witnesses than the french military.
- last thought, do you move around so much because you get bored quickly or do people ask you to leave because they are tired of you always pissing on their shoes?
I think catwoman meant in terms of foreign policy, not firearms ownership. For the record I have no problem with US firearms ownership.
Lookout, there are any positice points to the US but the sheer number, range and imact of the negatives simply outweight them from here. I spend a lot of time dealing with things that most people don't have to and a lot more time looking and who is pushing what, it's probably why I'm more annoyed. What any of this has to do with france is beyond me. I move around for various reasons, at the moment it's a mix of business and uni that keeps me shuffling around but usually it's just a love of travel. I'm sorry you can't seem to make a point without resorting to petty personal attacks, it must be very limiting.
What any of this has to do with france is beyond me...
... I'm sorry you can't seem to make a point without resorting to petty personal attacks, it must be very limiting.
eh, yer mom wears combat boots. and you are the one who brought france into it. you mentioned that they had peacekeepers in africa.
petty personal attacks? just because i single you out and direct my comments at you they are petty? interesting because when you throw out ridiculous broad brush insults on americans its just well-informed debate. strange.
you have yourself on such a pedastal it is laughable.
I consider Switzerland to be my "second country" since my Mom is Swiss, and I am very proud of my Swiss heritage. So here's the answer to what good has one of Jag's countries done for anyone lately.
Switzerland was one of the earliest democracies. It was formed in 1291 when three cantons - Schwyz, Uri and Unterwalden - joined together to protect their borders. That beats the US by almost 500 years. Switzerland has also already had three women who filled the highest governmental office of that country, equivalent to our president. The US has yet to elect a woman as president, as we all know.
The Swiss were formidable fighters. Any Latin student who labored through Ceasar's Commentaries will have spent some time reading about the Swiss, or Helvetians. One of Ceasar's statements: "The Helvetians, because of their geographic situation, are hemmed in on all sides... They do not consider the extent of their territory sufficient either ... for their military prowess, or for their reputation for courage." The Swiss continued as formidable fighters throughout the Middle Ages. Many other kingdoms and powers hired Swiss soldiers because they were best in all Europe. Swiss mercenaries continued to serve in other armies for centuries to come and earned an unrivalled reputation for their skill and courage. Swiss soldiers fought to the last man defending the King of France in the French Revolution. Even today the Pope is protected by the Swiss Guard.
Interesting enough, it was the Swiss who founded the Red Cross in Geneva in 1863. The symbol for the Red Cross is the inverse of the Swiss national flag. Three Swiss have been recipients of the Nobel Peace prize, and at least 22 others have won Nobel prizes, mostly in the area of the sciences. This is a stunning achievement for a country of only about 6 million people.
Some famous Swiss: Albert Einstein, Carl Jung, Hermen Hesse, Jean-Paul Marat, Jean-Jaques Rousseau, and Paul Klee, to name only a few.
There has been much criticism of Swiss actions in WWII, and some of it is indeed deserved, but people need to keep in mind that Switzerland was surrounded on all sides by Hitler's armies and in order to help preserve its neutrality, the country was forced to make some unpaletable concessions. Despite this fact, Switzerland permanently sheltered 60,000 civilian refugees (0.85 % of the 1990 population) and 60,000 soldiers, most of them allied troops (amounting to a total of 1.7 % of the 1990 population). The US itself repeated turned away Jewish refugees and accomodated only some 250,000 Jewish refugees from 1939 to 1945 (0.1 % of the 1990 population), and, therefore, has no right to throw stones.
Given the fact that Switzerland is a small land-locked country with a small population in comparison with other Western countries, its current prosperity and the contributions its people have made to Western civilization is nothing short of stunning. We Americans are soooooo ignorant of other nations.
attachment: "The Dying Lion; Swiss memorial to its soldiers who fell defending the King of France.
I think I've clarified my comments enough to make my point clear enough. On the flipside. I didn't drag france into this, someone, probably you brought it up for some reason, I retorted.
Your comments are petty personal attacks because of their nature, attacking my lifestyle and random odd claims about my disposition that have nothing to do with what's at hand. Maybe I should have used ad homium but latin is a dignified language and your comments are indeed very petty. If you care to point out the part where I said 'every single american is X' I would be glad, I could have sworn I described a European perspective on America and why. Obviously I've also listed a range of personal views, most of which were to do with the country as a whole rather than it's constitutions. If I'm on such a pedestal I'd love you to point out why and try and get me off.
So far you've shown a heck of a lot of indignation, a penchant for personal attacks and about as much substance as aerogel. Give me a shot, point out where I'm wrong on my points and what I'm missing that's so wonderful, I'll give you more ground than you think, I'm not against changing positions if you have evidence to back up your arguments.Hell check my early posts about firearms here if you have trouble believing that. Might require a little more than average-verses-GPD claims about foreign aid though. Of course it's much easier to squark random insults than make a durable point so I won't hold my breath.
eh, yer momma's so fat...
when she was laying on the beach, greenpeace gathered to help push her back out to sea.
eh, yer momma's so fat...
when she was laying on the beach, greenpeace gathered to help push her back out to sea.
I would comment, but I'd think you'll be embarrassed enough next time you look at your own post.
I love my country enough so that I get outraged when it engages in counter-productive acts overseas, and I get embarrassed for my fellow countrymen when they start acting like the streotypical "ugly Americans." If I didn't give a damn, none of it would matter to me.
Oh well,
sic transit gloria mundi .
I would comment, but I'd think you'll be embarrassed enough next time you look at your own post.
mari - it would take a hell of a lot to embarrass me, but so you know - my last few posts were just a joke. jag is aware of that.
they were supposed to be stereotypical american responses... guess they worked - but i wasn't really insulting jag's mother.
Largely seperate issues. A lot of people of people have been pissed about that for a long time (the opposition leader, Mark Latham got a lot of kudos for standing up and calling howard an 'arse licker', an act that alone made him one of my favorite pollies) but the more recent issues is the trade agreement and the comments of the deputy of state who was over to the media about Labor's stance on keeping troops in Iraq should they win the election.
Jag, you deal daily with institutions, corporations and government entities from the USA, that the average person here has no idea who they are or what they do, if they’ve heard of them at all. We know the people we meet, their actions and feelings and the general mood and feel. We get from the media what’s happening on a nationwide or worldwide basis but our personal knowledge is limited to our daily lives. When we hear someone attacking (verbally) Americans, we say “Hey that includes me, what the hell did I do?”
I think your perspective is formed by the people you deal with and they’re not representative of me or my attitudes. I also think that’s why you keep coming back to the Cellar, because you find the attitudes and comments you find here contradict more than reinforce what you see in your work.
Personally I’m interested in your take on things as a point of view from European dealing with American business and government entities. I wonder how much of your perspective is shared by Europeans that don’t have those dealings. You know, the average Joe, that only gets information from the media, like I do.
:beer:
Well you're right and to be honest, I wouldn't have a clue. There are lots of communities that are annoyed about different things. Most australian creative types are mad as hell about the new trade agreement for example but in the broader populace it's more complicated.
In Australia a mixture of resentment and a sense of resignation about America but direct impingement does raise ire, the article I pointed to you above is a common example and Labour is doing well off the back of a fair wave of anti-american feeling.
Europe is harder, there is a lot of feeling in Britain and I think Blair has felt it. I've seen a lot of people here (Switzerland) give the finger to the TV when bush comes on . Hating bush is very trendy to say the least. Even in very professional environments I've heard people make some not very polite comments. Bush personally is very, very toxic and certainly appears to embody what it is people dislike.
Most of the stuff that really irks me is not stuff that most people would be aware of in the slightest but there is a lot of feeling about other issues that are more about our place the in the world. Ask most people about why they are anti-war (and the vast majority are) and the answer will probably be something like "it was just for the oil", deep down it seems to me it's more a sense of indignation 'how dare they do that'.
I would have to second Jag when it comes to the responses of my own family in Switzerland. They are all very intelligent, mostly highly educated people, and they despise Bush. My Aunt Elsa whom I am most in contact with, often expresses polite bewilderment about American foreign policy and just American customs in general. I've had I don't know how many conversations with her which began with her shaking her head and asking, "Why do you Americans...?"
"Why do you Americans...?"
What? Why do we what? What do all us Americans exclusively do that has your freaking aunt Elsa so perplexed? I'm dying to know. Seriously.
So hating Bush is "trendy" in Europe? I'm not even going to try to defend that despicable dunderhead, but when did Europeans ever like American presidents? I was stationed at Upper Heyford RAFB in the 80's, and traveled/worked all over Europe. Reagan, again, no defense here, was HATED everywhere, and being in the military working mostly with local civilians, I was constantly berated for his policies. I've also visited several times as a child, and also in the last few years. It's always the same for me, "Oh, I don't like Americans, but you are O.K." like I'm getting priviledged gossip. I've only been able to come to two conclusions on this, either we're just a HUGE stupid target, or that they truly resent our waste of potential. One thing I do know, is that they all really do love cowboy movies, especially in Germany.
Europe is far further to the left, your left wing is right of our right wing most of the time, tends to be why we particularly dislike your right wing leaders. Clinton is pretty popular over here. Jinx, travelled much?
Nope, not at all jag. Your point?
Just how aware you are/aren't about the opinion of americans outside america.
Every major nationality has different connotations in most people's head. Since I've got enough passports to play cards with I'm particularly aware of this. I call Australian I get the 'g'day mate' and shrimp on the barbie stuff, Swiss gets me fairly close to a blank slate, maybe something about banks or cookoo clocks, British means people avoid giving you an opportunity to show off your teeth. America mostly gets loud, obnoxious, arrogant, jingoistic and insensitive. It's not entirely fair but it's a fact.
Jinx, you sound a bit defensive. First of all, let me assure you that my aunt is not some knee jerk American basher. She graduated from a Swiss University and spent most of her career working with children, teaching kindergarteners. And, yes, in Switzerland, even a Kindergarten teacher has to have a university degree and it's a specialized training. So Aunt Elsa will ask me things like "why do you Americans have such a high infant mortality rate?" The US has one of the highest death rates of infants in the Western world - truely deplorable in comparison with other First World countries. Or she will ask, "Why do you Americans seem to have so little regard for education?" when speaking of American high school drop-out rates as compared to Switzerland where literally no one drops out of school. Stuff like that.
Jag, I'm sorry, but so what? I realize people all over the globe like to generalize and stereotype, from nationalities to race and gender, that's certainly no secret only you and Marco Polo are privy to. Do you know Mari's aunt Elsa (or her travel history)? Because I was specifcally asking about her.
I'm not defensive, it's nothing new to see someone try to pass off ignorant generalizations as "very intelligent, highly educated" ponderings. So, she would express bewilderment at American customs like high infant mortality and dropping out of school? I see.
My Aunt Elsa has traveled extensively in Great Britain, France, Italy, Greece, Turkey, and the USSR to name a few. She has avoided coming to the US because she fears its reputation for violence. She is now in her 60's and is less adventuresome than she used to be. As to her questions regarding American customs, she wonders why Americans overseas seem to be so loud and disrespectful (this asked when a group of obnoxious American tourists chattered thru a service that we were attending in one of Luzern's ancient cathedrals. :eyebrow:
Oh yeah, I would hardly call it an ignorant generalization to look at our high infant mortality rates and high school drop out rates and wonder why. Those things are fact. And regarding the noisy tourists in the Cathedral, my Aunt said, "Well, they are young. Perhaps that is the reason." I don't know why you would view her honest puzzlement and her desire to understand as negatives. What? Do you have something to hide about our country that I don't?
So Elsa has traveled extensively in countries where it's 'trendy' to be anti-american, never actually visited america, and is basing her judgments of americans on tourists? Give me a break, everyone hates tourists. They invade the cool place you live, make it all crowded and somehow cheapen it with their presence. I grew up in a resort town - we hated all tourists, but the Canadians were the worst. Looking back, I have no idea why, but that's what everyone always said. Damn Canadians.
Any US OB will tell you the high rate of infant mortality is the result of better prenatal care nurturing higher risk pregnancies, as well as increased number of multiples due to fertility treatments. Any US midwife will tell you that's bullshit. A better question I would think would be; why are black babies in the US 2.5 times more likely to die in their first year than white babies? But anyway, I guess you and I have different ideas about what a “custom” is. That's what initially intrigued me - I just wanted you to finish your sentence.
It's trendy to be anti-american pretty much everywhere but america. That's the point.
So Elsa has traveled extensively in countries where it's 'trendy' to be anti-american, never actually visited america, and is basing her judgments of americans on tourists? Give me a break, everyone hates tourists. They invade the cool place you live, make it all crowded and somehow cheapen it with their presence. I grew up in a resort town - we hated all tourists, but the Canadians were the worst. Looking back, I have no idea why, but that's what everyone always said. Damn Canadians.
Any US OB will tell you the high rate of infant mortality is the result of better prenatal care nurturing higher risk pregnancies, as well as increased number of multiples due to fertility treatments. Any US midwife will tell you that's bullshit. A better question I would think would be; why are black babies in the US 2.5 times more likely to die in their first year than white babies? But anyway, I guess you and I have different ideas about what a “custom” is. That's what initially intrigued me - I just wanted you to finish your sentence.
Er, just where IS Elsa supposed to travel where Americans are welcomed with open arms? If you are saying that Great Britain, Italy and the rest of our allies overseas hate us, that's a pretty broad indictment in itself. As far as the USSR, Elsa went there out of curiosity. She and the rest of my family and everyone else I ever encountered in Switzerland had nothing but contempt for the Soviet Union under communism.
Elsa and I have also talked about race relations in the States. Its one more thing that perplexes the Europeans about our country, and given modern European history, something they are very sensitive to.
You are really jumping to conclusions when you assume Elsa has some unreasoning dislike for the US. She asked questions because she was curious and you can hardly expect a Swiss to have the same understanding of what's behind various statistics about the US as you and I do. That's why she asks. And as I noted in my example of the noisey tourists above - Elsa cut them more slack than I would have myself - ultimately blaming their behavior on their youth rather then their nationality.
I might give you your same advice as you give my Aunt: Travel in Europe yourself before you jump to conclusions about why the Europeans may feel about us as they do. We are so arrogant here in the States. There are NO homeless people on the streets of Switzerland. People do not lack for medical care or go bankrupt trying to obtain it. In the US 13.6% of our population gets by with $11.00 or less per day in real purchasing power (UN statistic). In comparison, prosperous Switzerland does not even fit anywhere on the same UN chart. The statistic simply does not apply to the Swiss population. I can walk the streets of Switzerland's capitol city of Zurich alone at 2:00am without fear. I am wary of doing the same thing in D.C. at 2:00 pm, forget 2:00 am.
So many people seem to imply or even state outright that if one points out the things wrong with the US then one is somehow unpatriotic or anti-American. I do not understand this. If I admit to some personal failing, does this mean I am against myself? I think it takes courage to admit to one's flaws, whether this is done by an individual or a country. As difficult as it may be, honest self scrutiny is vital. Without it we can never correct our own mistakes. Only a small man never admits to his errors. Greatness is in saying, "Here I was mistaken, and these are the steps I will take to ensure that I don't do this again." Then following the words with the action. If we Americans remain willfully blind to our country's failings out of some misplaced sensed of patriotism or for any other reason, we can only go downhill both as a country and as a people.
There are NO homeless people on the streets of Switzerland.
Where are they? :confused:
Where are they? :confused:
At home! ;)
So many people seem to imply or even state outright that if one points out the things wrong with the US then one is somehow unpatriotic or anti-American.
You are completely off base here. I asked you to finish your sentence. I wanted to hear about these wacky American customs that make her shake her head. How that turned into a need for me to run off to Europe has me a bit confused...
At home! ;)
So there are no working poor, drug addicts or crazy people? Yeah sure, home is a home with locks on the outside of the door. :p
So there are no working poor, drug addicts or crazy people? Yeah sure, home is a home with locks on the outside of the door. :p
Believe it or not, Bruce, very few. Switzerland is not some utopia, but the problems Swiss society faces really do not include homelessness to any great extent. The Swiss, like the Americans, are a hard working industrious people. They also enjoy the advantage of having an unemployment rate that hovers around a mere two or 3 percent. Add to that the strong social safety nets that Switzerland (along with the rest of Europe) has in place, and it becomes highly unusual for any Swiss to find themselves homeless. When I last visited there some years back, Zurich did have a sort of equivalent to Amsterdamn's "needle park." The Swiss at that point had few laws regarding illegal drugs, so a small "scene" of sorts had developed near Zurich's downtown. My older Swiss aunt who is quite conservative was rather outraged about the whole thing and claimed that the majority of the denizens of "needle park" were not Swiss, but foreigners attracted by the easy availability of their favorate poisons. The whole thing was such an oddity that my then husband and I went down to the area to see it, and I was so impressed to see someone actually sleeping on a park bench in Switzerland that I took his picture. This was in the middle of the day, however. I never saw anyone sleeping on park benches or huddled in doorways at night. I have heard that since my last visit the Swiss have cracked down somewhat, and "needle park" no longer exists. Jag tells me that Switzerland is changing, but I'd be really surprised to encounter homeless people on the streets there, still. I'm sure Jag will correct me if things have changed so much in only a few years.
when was Live AID? whenever. that summer, my dad took me, my brother and my sister with him on a long business trip to SanFran. One evening, in China town, as we dined......in an authentic Chinese restaurant that specialized in Cantonese Cuisine......for some reason I remember my dad checking menus in the windows to see which way the restaurant leaned....4 men sat down at the adjacent table. Two of them were Texas Cowboys. String ties and all. They were probably in their thirties, and you could feel the excitement pouring off of them. The other two were very well dressed Frenchmen. They did not oozez excitement. They oozed horrified, embarrassed, disgusted, appalled, and superior. I remember being conscious of the fact that Americans are disliked by the French. I remember thinking of the irony of this situatuion. SOmehow, these very different men found themselves dining together in a quiet Chinese restaurant in China Town, and these two guffawing, big belt buckle wearing, buffoons were our country's representatives. If i had a picture of myself rolling my eyes, I would post it. the smilie would not do it justice.
Add to that the strong social safety nets that Switzerland (along with the rest of Europe) has in place, and it becomes highly unusual for any Swiss to find themselves homeless.
Safety nets? As in institutions? places to put them so they aren't homeless? :confused:
Are you asking about people like schizophrenics, Bruce? If so, I really do not know what Swiss societal and governmental policy is in their regard. Perhaps, Jag could enlighten us. I stand by my statement, however, that I can honestly say I saw no one who appeared to be homeless in my various visits to Switzerland up to about 1999.
I can't speak for Zurich, I have little business in the German half but certainly in Lusanne it's pretty much unheard of. Incoming migrant populations, particularly from Africa and Eastern Europe have generated some problems in recent years, particularly drug related but compared to most places, it's virtually invisible. There is a very strong social net here, it's slightly different to much of Europe in that instead of a government controlled health network you instead have a legal obligation to have private health insurance which in general works very well. Switzerland has a stupidly high ratio of hospitals to population and a very high quality of medical care.
The drug issue is delt with with a carrot-stick system, prison sentances for posession are short and large comprehensive rehab programs exist, the combinations is effective as any I've seen. Compared to most places the police have a high visibility with regular foot patrols 24/7, there is nowhere here I would feel unsafe.
( PSSST! I don't think they're going to believe us, Jag. Americans think everyone must have a homeless population since the US does. I give up.)
OK, so there is nobody living on the streets because they put them somewhere via their “safety nets”.
We used to do that here but the courts ruled that is not legal. You can’t institutionalize someone against their will, unless they are a danger to someone, because that’s a violation of their constitutional rights. It really doesn’t matter what kind of care you offer most of these people because they won’t take it, of their own free will. Drugs(alcoholism) and mental illness are prevalent and rationality rare.
I suspect that Swiss families can force a family member off the streets, if necessary, whereas here, they can’t. Such is the nature of a system that stresses individual freedom. :)
No you're jumping to conclusions. Very few people choose to live on the street and what varios safety nets do is avoid that happening and give people help getting their lives back on track, I fair to see how you inferred that implied forceable institutionalization.
Switzerland has very well enforced civil rights, we have far greater control over our government than pretty much any other major democratic state. To pass a major bill it must go to referendum, we don't simply elect someone, watch what they do and pass judgement, we have to approve every major bill from spending changes to taxation to criminal law, all must pass referendum. Thus here, unlike the US, it is close to impossible to ram though unpopular legislation and hope the electorate forgets in time for the next election.
I second Jag's description of the Swiss democratic process. Switzerland truely is a government of the people. Also just because a person is a schizo who won't take his meds does not mean he has to be on the street. I know a person like that who has never been homeless - just bounces between a group home and the state hospital. He also has a family that tries their best for him, and they don't order him bundled off somewhere for life. There really is not all that much drug and alcohol treatment available here for the low income/homeless. The Salvation Army is it, and they're only around in larger towns.
Alcoholics/addicts don't want to be where they can't do it and any of the mentally ill that are paranoid don't want to be even in overnight shelters, here. This may be because of the quality of the shelters, I don't know.
So somehow the Swiss are convincing these same people to come in to their facilities, without forcing them. I wonder if it's the difference in the facilities, or the social background they come from? I also wonder how immigrants would react to the Swiss system, not having been brought up in Swiss culture? :confused:
Well I know the biggest problem with the drug trade here is african migrants, they simply have no fear of the prison system, compared to where they come from it's a vacation. There is vague stirrings of a deportation system but whether it'll see the light of day is another matter.
Er, just where IS Elsa supposed to travel where Americans are welcomed with open arms?
I never had any trouble in Switzerland, France, Austria, or Germany. Nor Australia or New Zealand, though that was rather longer ago.
You are really jumping to conclusions when you assume Elsa has some unreasoning dislike for the US.
She's traveled to Greece, Turkey, and the USSR and she hasn't traveled to the US because of the US's reputation for violence? That strongly suggests either she has an unreasoning dislike for the US... or has been associating too much with those who do.
Jag, your opinion of americans is based on no direct contact with us in our natural habitat.
We're quite different when we're not behaving as tourists.
Getcher ass over here, boy, and see the US firsthand.
I have always been told (i.e., even before this administration) that all Europeans hate Americans--except Texans. Supposedly they all love Texans. I guess perhaps that's no longer true since it's widely known that Bush is Texan?
To pick up Wolf's and Clod's point, Jag has never been to the South, either. They'd warm that cold, European heart of his with some down home hospitality, boiled peanuts and ice-cold beer, a good college football tailgate party, a low-country boil, some good bar-B-que, a shot or two of Jack Daniels and last but far from least, a bevy of the South's finest belles. :)
Jag has no idea how cool Americans can be.
I never had any trouble in Switzerland, France, Austria, or Germany. Nor Australia or New Zealand, though that was rather longer ago.
She's traveled to Greece, Turkey, and the USSR and she hasn't traveled to the US because of the US's reputation for violence? That strongly suggests either she has an unreasoning dislike for the US... or has been associating too much with those who do.
Look, Guys, you can't have it both ways. I was asking Jinx where in her opinion the poor woman should go since Jinx wrote off the better part of Europe along with our allies Turkey and Greece as being places where American bashing went on. Elsa DOES not hate Americans, O.K.? At the time she went to slightly more off the beaten path places like Turkey and the USSR, she traveled with her S.O. who now, sadly, has passed on. She's in her late 60's and felt rather hesitant about coming to the US alone, and at the time we had the discussion, I was still working and wouldn't really have had the time to show her around. (Actually, I guess she must be 70 or more now, since she was maybe 65 or so when we talked about it).
Little things like Columbine, Ted Bundy, etc, etc, etc kind of made her a bit apprehensive. They just don't have crime like that in Switzerland. The woman is starting to get up in years and she's lost her best companion. You sure are a mean spirited bunch. It's as if your 65 or 70 year old Grandmother felt a bit apprehensive about traveling to Mexico City alone right after your grandfather had passed on. Would you call her a Mexican hater? Jeez, give me a break! :eyebrow:
Clobfobble, the texans are for the amusment factor, like clowns.
Beestie I'm a diehard city slicker with a perchant for mojitos, I wear frigging birkenstocks for crying out loud, if you see me in the south I'll be arriving by flying pig.
Yet I love traipsing around 3rd world jungles, go figure.
I would like to visit the US but it's not an option until they stop treating visitors from friendly countries like convicted criminals. I probably already have some sort of file somewhere, if they want to add verified photo ID and fingerprints there's going to have to be a damn good reason.
Well, Jag, you could probably get away with the Birkenstocks in the South. Its the fashion police in Aspen who would be your real worry. ;)
sure is smug in this thread
I've just re-read the whole thing and it's a riot! From the original thread-jacking, here are the Top Ten Stupidest Things Said in this Thread. Paraphrased and summarized for your convenience.
10. Catwoman: Americans are hatred/violence/retribution-oriented because they want to torture child molesters.
[size=1]No, Americans want to torture child molesters because A) they molest children, and B) their own legal system will NOT torture them.[/size]
9. Jaguar: Other countries don't prevent immigrants from being successful because they don't pass laws that prevent it.
8. Cyber Wolf: American criminals are tortured by the difficult legal system.
7. Wolf: I own, like, enjoy, carry firearms but I'm not trigger-happy.
[size=1]I know what you meant and yes it's still funny.[/size]
6. Jaguar: I won't visit the US because it treats visitors like criminals by taking a fingerprint.
[size=1]I prefer the Swiss system, which waits for them to cause trouble and then deports them.[/size]
5. Marichiko: We Americans are soooo ignorant of other countries! I take wisdom from my Swiss Aunt... who won't visit the US because it's violent like Columbine.
4. Cyber Wolf: Americans want to torture child molesters, and the media suppresses it.
3. Jaguar: Europeans hate US foreign policy because it's overreaching. Also, there are people in Normandy who would die for the US.
[size=1]I do hope this one isn't too subtle.[/size]
2: Jaguar: Friday: Ah this is pointless. My views will change when the situation changes which it no doubt will in the coming decades, until then there really is little to discuss here. Monday: I'll give you more ground than you think, I'm not against changing positions if you have evidence to back up your arguments.
1. Undertoad: My point is I love you man.
[size=1]True, but probably an evasion[/size]
? Live Aid Lumberjim, was Saturday July 13th 1985. It was my birthday, and I went with a bunch of English and American friends to the London Wembley end of it on a wonderfully hot day of almost twenty years ago and I find that almost unbelievable. Nineteen years ago tomorrow. When I was nineteen (way back in the late sixties) I had won a travel bursary and went to America. Nobody I knew had ever been to the US and in those days it was a very major event. I worked my way around large parts of the country, making friends who are friends to this day and thrilling with the excitement and sense of disbelief at everything I saw. I was overwhelmed at least once a day! A bit like your Texans in SA, I was something of an innocent abroad LJ. It was the most thrilling time of my life. I adored the US and its people. I remember the warmth and hospitality I found everywhere, people who were total strangers opened their homes to me and showed me around their towns. I recall the enormous pride they had in their nation and how thrilled they were to help me enjoy it as well. I worked in California, Oregon, New york, and travelled through or stayed in at least a dozen other parts of the country. It was the first of several trips to the US and had a profound effect on me.
I later lived my working life in London and so many times I cannot recall, found myself returning the favour to visitors from the US who wanted to see London from the perspective of a very proud native. You would be amazed at the sheer numbers of people who came back, as our guests, and we would go walking together through the french countryside or the scottish highlands. The last big bash was with two families of New York mates and my gang in a huge Greek villa for a month. We rocked believe me!!
Forgive the nostalgic ramblings please, this is what often happens to me around birthdays, but I just wanted selfishly to insert an island of profoundly happy memory in here alongside my thanks for the memories.
THANK YOU CZ!
an actual opinion of americans based on real life personal experience. and happy birthday. give your self a big bear hug from me.
And that is why you should never use Cliff's Notes!
Ah well, I can only control so much how I come across, especially in a text forum. Cheers, UT! :beer:
UT, sorry, I missed the bit where the US never deports people and there is no system in Switzerland to do so. Who's the idiot? I fail to see how the two points in 3 are mutually exclusive.
If I warp your quotes and take them out of context I'm sure they'd sound amusing too.
The trouble with America.
She is truly beautiful. She boasts some of the most outstanding areas of natural beauty in the world. She has produced some of the most intelligent, prosperous and significant people in history.
But this grandiose image is tarnished with a history of corruption, pollution and death. Indeed, industrial America's very foundation is war; a nasty, brutal civil war that killed far too many. Like all wars.
The European perception of America could accurately be described as hostile; at best ambivalent. I would like to explain why I think this opinion exists.
Most* people's perception of America is founded on a) media reportage; b) international events and c) Americans they have come into contact with (most likely as tourists). I am sure you will agree this is how most* Americans assimilate an opinion about Britain or any other country.
[SIZE=1]* I exclude those who have travelled extensively to the country in question.[/SIZE]
Media 'reportage', from Fox to Friends to Films, is often self-appreciative, righteous, moralistic and - for want of a better word - intolerably slick. It leaves that lasting, bitter taste of style over substance, something that we self-deprecating Brits find hard to digest. Of course, we are influenced by our own media and its portrayal of America. I have to say it is often unashamedly biased, with subversive presenters often using the American stereotype to parody key American figures. You might consider this unfair, but these stereotypes truly are made to fit. Or made to measure, as you might say.
International events speak for themselves. Countless invasions, occupations, wars. Economically, America is the 'big bully' of the international community. 'Price wars' is an American concept. It has paved the way for Third World Debt, Free Trade Zones, and unqualified poverty. I needn't mention the points of conflict surrounding the recent war.
American tourists are idiotic, presumptious, arrogant and largely unwilling to involve themselves in local culture. They see England as 'cute' and 'quaint' and are fascinated by a history they have never known for themselves. If only they could package it up in a cute little box and take it away with them.
Of course, it would be completely unfair to judge a country by merit of its tourists. If Britain were judged on its tourists, international perception would probably include the words 'ignorant', 'indecent', 'rowdy' and 'uncultured'.
And they would be quite right. In general, the Great British populace are an ignorant bunch, leading soundbite lives based on instant gratification with their indiscriminate consumption of food, 'culture' and politics. Is it fair to say this is representative of how this country is run and permit others to make judgements based on our behaviour? Of course it is! Human beings have a choice. Their behaviour abroad is no less indicative of their mindset as their actions at home.
I apologise for the lack of euphemism but American foreign policy is trigger-happy, always has been. And I do think this is reflected in the gun laws (or lack thereof). The thing is, America is incredibly insecure. By nature of it being the biggest power in our modern world, it is constantly faced with the threat of a fall. And it's a long way from the top, as any befallen athlete, actor or CEO will tell you. There will always be another country threatening a bigger gun, more WMD's, more troops, more... whatever. It is America's duty to stay on top of this and ensure that no one else rivals their pole position. America is the best country in the world, and don't you forget it.
In my assessment of America I do not implicitly condone, flatter or otherwise 'big up' my own country or any other. This is not an argument of moral, financial or political superiority. It would be nice to be able to express a critique of a person, institution or country without fear of an emotional reaction, and a lot of this debate has been reaction, not response.
It is also worth mentioning that mine, jag's, or anyone else's opinion about the States is not a detraction from people's individual or personal 'goodness'. There are many lovely people in America as there are in this country, or anywhere else. We are merely reviewing the overriding sentiment. Unfortunately, as someone mentioned earlier, it is often very difficult to usurp some kind of honest self-reflection in most American people, and I include a couple of my American friends in this assessment. One girl I have known for two years still gets very protective of her country, and will not listen to balanced criticism, even when I know she agrees. It is as if there is a guilt associated with self-deprecation - like it demonstrates betrayal or weakness - when in fact it belies strength.
The fact is, America is at once the strongest and most vulnerable country in the world. By this merit, it is no surprise its inhabitants are perpetually fearful - scared that their strength may one day be taken away from them, and then all they'll have left is the fear. It's when this fear translates into bloodshed and brutality that a negative perception of America is understandably cultivated.
And for any of you tempted to respond to this with some ill thought-out, personally insulting or otherwise retaliatory one-liner, I'll leave you with the best quote I've seen in the Cellar for ages:
Go munch on some freedom fries you self defeating halfwit. © Jaguar
yeah. nice teeth, limey ;)
All's fair on posts and boards. :beer:
Little things like Columbine, Ted Bundy, etc, etc, etc
And we really don't have crime like this in America either, as you well know. Events like these are the tails of the bell curve.
intolerably slick
Cat, this section bapped the lightbulb in my head on, and especially those words. It's a lovely insight, well said.
There is a deep cultural problem here, but the thing is, it's not really American so much as it is industrial/globalization related.
A hundred and fifty years ago, you bought a pen. It was a fountain pen, and it was individually crafted from its component parts by another human being, probably working alone. It cost 100 hours of your salary to buy this pen, but the pen was a beautiful thing.
Yesterday, you bought a pen. It cost you 5 minutes of your salary to buy this pen. It is much better and longer lasting than the pen of 150 years ago. The ink doesn't need to be bought separately. The ink writes on ten times as many surfaces as the pen of 150 years ago. It will last you for a year, after which you'll use another 5 minutes of salary to buy one exactly like it.
And that's the problem: it'll be
exactly like it. It's still a pen, better in almost every single way... except one: mass-created by machine, not carefully created by an artisan, this pen has no soul. It's an empty shell of a pen, and now the meaning of what a pen really is, changes in ways we might not like.
Today's pen, better in every way... except that it has no soul. It is intolerably slick. And when we use it, we lose a little soul ourselves. But the fact that it's better in every other way means that its acceptance, its purchase, its use is inevitably going to take over.
And as a side effect, the working classes will have pens of their own.
I apologise for the lack of euphemism but American foreign policy is trigger-happy, always has been.
I've heard Winston Churchhill was happy in a way to see the Japanese bomb Pearl Harbor. It's said that he believed that was the point at which the US would really get serious about Germany. Until then the US had stayed out of it. Not really our battle.
And I do think this is reflected in the gun laws (or lack thereof).
I was kinda waiting for the point where the Switzerland fans would come up against any other Europeans in the house.
The thing is, America is incredibly insecure.
For your marvelous insights, here is the only place I see you slip. Americans are not insecure whatsoever. We are absolutely convinced that we are the biggest, baddest motherfuckers on the planet. The thing that pisses us off the most is that you forget it. If you knock down our tallest fucking tower, the only thing you'll find ten years later is that we've built a bigger, badder fucking tower to replace it, and we don't really care if you think we're whipping out our big dicks or flipping you the bird.
From outside our culture I'm sure much of that is appalling. From inside it, I know I am often appalled. But it does not come from insecurity.
The fact is, America is at once the strongest and most vulnerable country in the world. By this merit, it is no surprise its inhabitants are perpetually fearful - scared that their strength may one day be taken away from them, and then all they'll have left is the fear. It's when this fear translates into bloodshed and brutality that a negative perception of America is understandably cultivated.
It's the strongest, therefore it has further to fall. But it's really only vulnerable to fear. Take 9/11 as an example. What happens if you obliterate ten blocks of infrastructure in the financial district of the most important city in the country? Well the financial folks have always planned for massive failure, and many of the worst-hit were up and running the next day with backup networks in other parts of the country. But the financial effect of people not traveling, not hiring, not buying, etc. because of fear was pretty bad.
The truth is, the world has much more to fear from the fall of America than from its continued strength. For example, the US is responsible for the security of most of the world's major sealanes where oil is shipped. The entire world benefits. That's military overstretch.
The other truth is, as the strongest, we automatically become the target. We automatically become the scapegoat. I for one hate the notion of the US being the world's police force. But we have a very different responsibility if we are targets and/or scapegoats.
edited to add final paragraph sorryAnd we really don't have crime like this in America either, as you well know. Events like these are the tails of the bell curve.
Sure, the Swiss bell curve is in part smaller due to a smaller population. This whole thing has become absurd. I don't blame UT for being amused. I suspect that if my Aunt Elsa were to read it, she'd be in hysterics. What a silly circular argument we've all been having. :dead:
But this grandiose image is tarnished with a history of corruption, pollution and death. Indeed, industrial America's very foundation is war; a nasty, brutal civil war that killed far too many. Like all wars.
America's very foundation is war, a nasty, brutal war known as the American Revolution. But Europe can hardly reasonably hold that against us without forgetting its own history.
Media 'reportage', from Fox to Friends to Films, is often self-appreciative, righteous, moralistic and - for want of a better word - intolerably slick.
You do know that "Friends" is fiction, a situation comedy, right?
'Price wars' is an American concept.
A price war is when competitors engage in a competition for customers by lowering prices. This is a problem?
It has paved the way for Third World Debt, Free Trade Zones, and unqualified poverty.
Ahh, yes, the "America is responsible for all the troubles of the world" theory. As for Free Trade Zones, seems to me the largest one is in Europe.
American tourists are idiotic, presumptious, arrogant and largely unwilling to involve themselves in local culture.
Eh? They're tourists. On vacation for a week or two, maybe a month at the outside, how are they to "involve themselves in the local culture"? As for the rest, much of that is sampling bias; the assholes tend to be noticed. Not that there's any shortage of obnoxious Americans, granted.
I apologise for the lack of euphemism but American foreign policy is trigger-happy, always has been.
Which is why the British needed to forge a telegram to get the US into WWI, which is why the US didn't enter WWII until attacked, which is why the US made no moves against the Taliban until attacked by their associates, etc. Oh, sure, you can find times (putting Iraq aside for the moment) where the US has acted in a trigger-happy manner (Grenada, the Spanish-American War, Vietnam -- though note in the last two cases a provocation was invented to get the American public's support), but what you call lack of euphemism is rather ridiculous overstatement.
You do know that "Friends" is fiction, a situation comedy, right?
as are Fox and Films.
And you express them eloquently. That steamroller idea is fantastic. My only concern is that he would be dead well before the job was done. Surely we can make him suffer longer? Perhaps the steamroller bit should be a finale of sorts.
I'll bet a slow drawing-and-quartering would be suitably torturous.
Europe is far further to the left, your left wing is right of our right wing most of the time, tends to be why we particularly dislike your right wing leaders. Clinton is pretty popular over here. Jinx, travelled much?
It figures. Sadaam liked him too. Clinton was a power-abusing, wishy-washy idiot. Don't bother to defend him if you like him. I'm not issuing a challenge, just stating my opinion.
It's trendy to be anti-american pretty much everywhere but america. That's the point.
Well, then, let's all be slaves to fashion.