2/7: Man vs tank

I think the caption for this picture ought to be, simply, "Balls".

Sharon is probably already blaming the kid for his own death. Leaders do just that - in the tradition of Hilter and Idi Amin - blame the victim.

Originally posted by tw
Sharon is probably already blaming the kid for his own death. Leaders do just that - in the tradition of Hilter and Idi Amin - blame the victim.

Actually, the people to blame are those in the PLO leadership who are actively encouraging parents to send their children out as martyrs, and encouraging the children- in the official PA textbooks used in schools- to sacrifice their lives in the jihad against the Jews.

The world's far more complicated than you believe, tw,
Z

Originally posted by adamzion
Actually, the people to blame are those in the PLO leadership who are actively encouraging parents to send their children out as martyrs, and encouraging the children- in the official PA textbooks used in schools- to sacrifice their lives in the jihad against the Jews.

The world's far more complicated than you believe, tw,
Z

Actually, I hoped that Adam would not worship the fucking scum bag, shit faced, cunt licking, anti everyone else extremist - oh - he is now credible because fools elected him president?

Adam, you have never read these words from me concerning anyone else. I never use them anyplace and condemn their use except in extreme situations. Anyone who does not advocate his butt fuck is simply an enemy of the world. If you were reading international news sources and listening to responsible fact sources, then you know that many of those Palestinian kids are only throwing rocks and doing so against the wishes of their parents. The BBC alone made this fact obvious. The violence is directly traceable to a Hilter type who continues to do everything to destroy peace for his own self serving profit. Racist does not even describe this scum bag.

Adam will also forget that hundreds of Arabs are murdered for but a few Jews. That Arab land is routinely taken even in violation of Isreali laws. That the Isreali Supreme Coutr, in defending those people's rights, was all but gutted. Yes, even 20% who are Arab Israelis are murder murder victims by extremists rhetoric that Adam refuses to admit. Adam, you are advocating more genocide by opening praising that mother fucker. I wish the English language had words strong enough to describe that turd Ariel Sharon. However I will demonstrate in Current Events how evil this man is - using historical facts. Facts? How quick the protectors of that religous right extremist forget facts. The current Isreali President all but pulled the trigger that murdered Rabin. Did we forget that? Why? Because it is convenient to blame the Palestinians instead?

I blame Adam Zion far more than any Palestinian for Middle East deaths because he refuses to face the real world AND he blames victims AND he loves a Hilter act-alike called "rape everyone else Ariel Sharon".

Originally posted by adamzion
[QUOTE]Originally posted by tw
Actually, the people to blame are those in the PLO leadership who are actively encouraging parents to send their children out as martyrs, and encouraging the children- in the official PA textbooks used in schools- to sacrifice their lives in the jihad against the Jews.

The world's far more complicated than you believe, tw,

This may offend any Jews or Arabs on here, but we're all adults.

The Israelies and Arabs are acting like little children..."it's ours, no it's ours..." The two entities will have to come to terms with it sooner or later...neither side will get exactly what they want. Hopefully they'll realize it before they kill each other off.

And quite frankly, the amount of money that we give Israel, a "first-world" country, is pathetic.

Originally posted by sycamore
And quite frankly, the amount of money that we give Israel, a "first-world" country, is pathetic.

Last time I looked, more than 50% of American foreign aid goes to Israel and Egypt. Almost all US foreign aid goes to five countries. Israel is #1 on the US list of foreign aid dollar amounts.

Originally posted by tw
<snip ramble>
I blame Adam Zion far more than any Palestinian for Middle East deaths because he refuses to face the real world AND he blames victims AND he loves a Hilter act-alike called "rape everyone else Ariel Sharon".
[/B]

OK, tw, since you obviously understand me better than I understand myself, please allow me to explain a few things:

1) I am <b>not</b> a fan of Ariel Sharon. Never have been, and never will be. No amount of you claiming otherwise will change that.

2) I previously posted a rather long collection of facts regarding the background of the current conflict in Israel. I will not do so again, but invite you to see them yourself at the site http://www.facts4peace.com/ .

3) The government of Ehud Barak offered 95% of the West Bank, virtually all of the Gaza Strip, and half of Jerusalem- the Israeli capital city- to the PA in part of a peace deal. To put this in context, imagine if the US ceded back to the various Native American tribes 95% of the land in the United States, plus 50% of Washington, DC as their capital. Sound good? Remember: we all live in a country which was taken, lock stock and barrel, from indigenous peoples, peoples who had had dominion here for <b>far</b> longer than the Arabs had dominion over Israel.

People in glass houses, etc.,
Z

Originally posted by adamzion
OK, tw, since you obviously understand me better than I understand myself, please allow me to explain a few things:

2) I previously posted a rather long collection of facts regarding the background of the current conflict in Israel. I will not do so again, but invite you to see them yourself at the site http://www.facts4peace.com/ .

It's an interesting site, Adam. My main complaint is that no sources are presented other than the Bible (which is a book of faith, and not really a history book) on the facts page. Not to mention, the site doesn't mention how much aid the State of Israel receives from this country.

3) The government of Ehud Barak offered 95% of the West Bank, virtually all of the Gaza Strip, and half of Jerusalem- the Israeli capital city- to the PA in part of a peace deal. To put this in context, imagine if the US ceded back to the various Native American tribes 95% of the land in the United States, plus 50% of Washington, DC as their capital. Sound good? Remember: we all live in a country which was taken, lock stock and barrel, from indigenous peoples, peoples who had had dominion here for <b>far</b> longer than the Arabs had dominion over Israel.

Yeah...gimme my land back!

(And give my fiance her 40 acres and a mule.)

Originally posted by adamzion
3) The government of Ehud Barak offered 95% of the West Bank, virtually all of the Gaza Strip, and half of Jerusalem- the Israeli capital city- to the PA in part of a peace deal. To put this in context, imagine if the US ceded back to the various Native American tribes 95% of the land in the United States, plus 50% of Washington, DC as their capital. Sound good? Remember: we all live in a country which was taken, lock stock and barrel, from indigenous peoples, peoples who had had dominion here for <b>far</b> longer than the Arabs had dominion over Israel.

People in glass houses, etc.,

Half truths again. You forgot the reason why the deal was not closed. Barak did not want to finalize any details even though the Palestinians were ready to do so - with written proposals in hand at the table! Since previous deals were not ironclad, then Israel extremists gutted them - undermining parts of every deal on technicalities. Fool me once - shame on you. Fool me twice - fool be me. Even Palestinians understand that - which is why Arafat could not agree to incomplete agreements.

Look at all the Arab lands that were confiscated around Jerusalem despite Oslo accords that were suppose to protect those lands. Accords signed by the Israeli government but did not include ironclad details. Look at all the West Bank settlements built only to make a finalized peace agreement impossible and in violation of previous agreements - as The Ecomomist magazine **bluntly** points out (but you forget to mention); and built in direct violation of UN Resolution 242 and the Oslo accords.

Of course Barak had good reason to avoid finalizing the details. Barak needed manuevering room because too many Jews so hate all other people as to not condemn that fuck head Ariel Sharon (see the long, disgusting history of this genocidal maniac in the Current Events section). A finalized deal was politically impossible in a country so full of religious extremist zealot types - a country where honest people will not stand up to religious hate-mongers who dominate the Orthodox ranks and government. I don't hear honest Jews demanding, for example, that rabbis be removed from government. Americans who don't condemn those extremists only help make an honest peace settlement impossible. Even the Israel Supreme court was gutted when it tried to stop genocidal attitudes. Why do you not mention that history? Conveniently forgotten is WHY the deal could not be signed.

In fact, Adam, I did not hear you apologize for your countrymen's love of a genocidal enemy of all people - Ariel Sharon. Sharon - a man who makes honest men of both McCarthy (the anti-communist) and Nixon.

I did not hear you endorse UN Resolution 242. Do you conveniently and repeatedly forget to reputiate 242? IOW, like Ted Koppel, I repeat the question because you do not answer it. Do you condemn Sharon or just 'never' support him? Do you condemn or support UN Resolution 242?

I give up, tw. Obviously, you would far prefer it if all us annoying kikes were to get up and jump in the ocean, and save all the poor, put-upon gentiles of the world the trouble we cause. Hell, maybe we should all just arm the PA and let them shoot Israeli soldiers (oh, that's right- we did precisely that).

Guess what: we ain't going anywhere. I suspect that the mere fact of Israel's continued existance in the world is a thorn in the side of all the bigots who wish that Hitler had finished what he started. He didn't, we're still here, and we're not going anywhere. And d'you know something else? We'll still be around when the US is a mere entry in a history book. We outlasted the Babylonians, we outlasted the Romans, and we outlasted the Nazis. They all tried to kill us, and they all failed. So will Arafat and company.

Deal with it,
Z

Originally posted by adamzion
I give up, tw. Obviously, you would far prefer it if all us annoying kikes were to get up and jump in the ocean, and save all the poor, put-upon gentiles of the world the trouble we cause. ...

Guess what: we ain't going anywhere. I suspect that the mere fact of Israel's continued existance in the world is a thorn in the side of all the bigots who wish that Hitler had finished what he started. He didn't, we're still here, and we're not going anywhere. And d'you know something else? We'll still be around when the US is a mere entry in a history book. We outlasted the Babylonians, we outlasted the Romans, and we outlasted the Nazis. They all tried to kill us, and they all failed. So will Arafat and company.

Deal with it,
Z

"Compared with Jewish Israelis, Arab Israelis are discriminated against in almost every way. Their municipalities get less money, their education is poorer, their unemployment rate far higher, and it is virtually impossible fo r them to by land, nearly all of which is government owned."

In 1960 America, Jews were some of the first to rally support against racism. Ironically, today racism is exercised daily against 20% of Israeli citizens and against millions from an occupied country. How ironic that a people once victims of hate crimes now routinely do same against all others. Whereas the US Supreme Court rallies to the defense of the victims; the Israeli Supreme Court is gutted while trying to do same. Is that not what Hilter did to his government? How ironic that when confronted, facts are not denied but the messenger is accused of racism. Go figure. Is Adam secretly a Likud extremist or do even moderate Jews deny these facts by using half truth reasonings?

Expartiot Jews propagandize half-truths (http://www.facts4peace.com). 47 Israelis died in the past four months. But many were those discriminated Arabs and other non-Jew citizens - people murdered by Israelis and not by Palestinians? Futhermore, the entire scorecard is also forgotten. 47 vs 360 Palestinians. Who is doing all the killing? Who started this intifada? Extremist Jews - and now maybe even moderate Jews. Even moderate Jews are only telling half-truths. Even worse, moderate expatriot Jews cannot even mention, let alone acknowledge, UN Resolution 242 - the only basis for Middle East peace.

This silence from extremist Jews is expected - they want and practice ethnic cleansing - especially in the West Bank and in direct violation of all laws. But when even moderate Jews cannot mention UN 242, then the situation is that scary.

" ... listen to half a dozen Gazan famers, sitting quietly in a lunar landscape of destruction, as they tell their story. Their citrus fields, olive and almond groves, and greenhouses of fruit and begetables were razed to the ground, supposedly because they were in the vicintiy of a raod that a handful of Jewish settlers [people who are there in violation of UN 242 and the Oslo accords) might use. But hat distressed these farmers, even more than the uncompensated loss of property, was that the rain had at last fallen and thery wrer forbidden to sow their wheat." Again The Economist all but says it - ethnic cleansing. Why are these facts not provided from those who have ties to this region (Adam)? Why instead am **I** accused of racism? Why indeed did the Israelis elect a mass murder?

What else will I be accused of? Even scarier is that Adam does not admit to supporting enemies of the world - motherfucking Sharon, et al. If he accused me of being anti-Israeli, then imagine how demented and entrenched domestic Israeli Jewish thinking is today.

Israel now routinely violates the Fundamental Declaration of Human Rights in some belief that "We'll still be around when the US is a mere entry in a history book. We outlasted the Babylonians, we outlasted the Romans, and we outlasted the Nazis." A philosophy often preached by those who claim to be a Master Race. How's that to put a chill in your back. With such thinking, then peace is all but impossible. Historically, sometimes thousand, maybe millions had to die to eliminate such dangerous thinking. Scary.

Serbia's Milosevik made same claims. He insisted that Serbians were victims of hate and racism - while they murdered Croations, Bosnians, and Albanians. When whole truths are revealed, then criminals claim to be victims of racism. Does it just apply to the Balkans? No. I am afraid you can even read it in the Cellar. Suddenly **I** who have praised great people such as Golda Meyer, Begin, and Yitzhak Rabin am instead accused of racism. Why? Because I identify that who would demean and tarnish such great names. That turd is Ariel Sharon - and the many who support his ethnic cleansing, his invasion of another nation - and god knows what else.

Would America elect as president a mass murder; an ethnic cleanser; a man who all but murdered a previous president? It better not happen. America would then be the enemy of all good people. Yet Israel did just that. A patriotic Jew should be loudly crying serious warnings. Even moderate Jew, exposed to heavy pressures in a cross-examination grilling, demonstrates appreciation for the policies of anti-humanity Ariel Sharon. When faced with fact, instead, accuse the messenger. "... you would far prefer it if all us annoying kikes were to get up and jump in the ocean,...". No Adam. I wish you would respect the traditions of great Jews instead of supporting those who act in the tradition of Milosevik and Hitler. Unfortunately, even under pressure, UN Resolution 242 is all but denied AND the policies of a scum bag Ariel Sharon are endorsed - blame everyone else.

"For the first time for many years, Israelis are murmuring about the possibility of a wider war. There is nothing solid to these murmurs. But people recollect Mr Sharon's supposed grand strategy behind Israel's invasion of Lebanon: the Palestinians would be forced out, they would turn turn Jordan into a Plestinian state, and Isreael would be off the hook." - The Economist again tells us what American Jews will not. If Sharon had his way, then Israel could openly deny UN Resolution 242. Currently even moderate Jews, as demonstrated here, pretend that UN 242 does not exist.

UN 242 is the only foundation for Middle East peace. When confronted with that fact, then **I** am accused of racism! If Adam is so quick to resort to emotion (because he cannot defend against the facts), then imagine how entrenched and unyielding the extremist Jewish population is. No wonder they all but talk as if the Master Race. It is not a good thing for Israel, America, or any other people who work to the advancement of mankind - that a man who thinks nothing of killing Americans and Soviets in a nuclear exchange, and who advocates the murder of a Prime Minister is quietly supported even by expatriot moderates.

That picture "Man vs Tank" says much more than one would realize if one's only source of information is today's Israeli government. Yes, I fear Israel is becoming a racist nation in the traditions of George Wallace but with the attitudes of Slovedon Milosevik. This is made easier when expatriots even in the US promote half-truths - and deny this picture.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tw
<deletia>
I can't even begin to respond to this post. Clearly, Tom does not feel that Israeli soldiers have the right to fire back when attacked. And, yes, rocks and Molotov cocktails thrown at you *do* constitute attacks. Ditto buses driven into crowds at bus stops. Ditto car bombs exploding in sidewalk markets.

Have I said, even <b>once</b> that I like Sharon? No. Have I said, even <b>once</b> that I believe myself to be part of a "Master Race?" No. Please do not attempt to put words in my mouth or to argue with a straw man.

When the UN kills civilians in a "peacekeeping" operation such as in Bosnia, Kosova, or Rwanda, it apparently meets with the Western media's approval. But when organized militia cowardly use civilians as "human shields," and the PA even has <b>rewards</b> for any parent who can demonstrate that a child died in such "service," Israel apparently has no right to take any steps to defend itself.

The mind boggles,
Z

Originally posted by adamzion
I can't even begin to respond to this post. Clearly, Tom does not feel that Israeli soldiers have the right to fire back when attacked. And, yes, rocks and Molotov cocktails thrown at you *do* constitute attacks. Ditto buses driven into crowds at bus stops. Ditto car bombs exploding in sidewalk markets.

The answer: definitely **NOT**. Peace keepers do not have the right to fire live ammunition at anyone throwing rocks as demonstrated in restrictions and difficulties expressed, for example, in the recent news reports assoicated with the Canadian UN General from Rwanda. Any peace loving human knows that fact. Peace keepers are only allowed limited response to Molotov cocktails and only in a very restricted set of events. Adam should know better. Firing tanks and amoured helicopters in full war mode is a complete violation of Peace Keeping anywhere - except in the Israeli army? Go figure. The Israeli Army is special? It can violate peace keeping standards that the US Army cannot? Is that why the Israeli soldiers had no problem creating a massacre of Palestinian women and children in Lebanon? Their definition of peace keeping can be different? Why? Are they a Master Race with special exceptions to Peace Keeping?

Logic takes us farther. The Israeli army is a victim of their top management. 85% of all problems are **directly** traceable to top management. Ariel Sharon is top of that list. His political party routinely advocates racism and did everything to create the resulting intifada. Evil top management (ie. Likud) has been defined, using layers and reams of facts and postings from RESPONSIBLE news sources. Likud not only 'all but murdered Rabin', but they did everything to destroy any and all peace settlements.

The Army is now stuck with the resulting and justifiable intifada. Justifiable? Oppressed people throughtout history are expected to respond in kind. One oppressed people were the American Colonies. American Colonists were never as oppressed as Palestinians AND non-Jewish Israelis are today - and yet.... Considering what oppressed people in Israel have put up with, it is a miracle that violence has remains so limited.

Your mind boggles when faced with facts that are emotionally denied. Deny: "For the first time for many years, Israelis are murmuring about the possibility for a wider war ... people recollect Mr Sharon's grand strategy behind the invasion of Lebanon". At least The Economist is not in denial. The attitude of Israel IS the mindset of a penis licking Ariel Sharon. Things in Israel have become that bad.

What were those Israeli settlers doing in the West Bank? Stealing property in violation of Israeli law AND in violation of the Oslo Accords. Why? Because not enough Jews stood up to a racist Likud party and its motherfucking, enemy even of all Americans, Ariel Sharon and his co-conspirator, the petty theif Netanyahu. Not enough Jews even protected their own Supreme Court because the court demanded Israeli law be enforced. The law and Court must be wrong because it protected non-Jews? Go figure.

Peace keepers from Britian did not fire on Indians who threw rocks .... in 1948! Why is firing live ammunition now acceptable in 2001? Racism, or just emotional denial of facts? It is a tough choice that does boggle the mind - racism or denial - which is it?

Originally posted by adamzion
When the UN kills civilians in a "peacekeeping" operation such as in Bosnia, Kosova, or Rwanda, it apparently meets with the Western media's approval. But when organized militia cowardly use civilians as "human shields," and the PA even has <b>rewards</b> for any parent who can demonstrate that a child died in such "service," Israel apparently has no right to take any steps to defend itself..

The UN never intentionally attacked civilians with advanced military weapons in Bosnia, Kosova, or Rwanda. Only the enemies of peace did that - another Sharon look-a-like called Milosevik. If Milosevik can do it, then so can the Israeli Army?

The above wild claim is classic, Nazi like, propaganda used against Czechs to justify a military massacre!!! UN peace keepers NEVER attacked the civilian population. You know better than to use outright lies with me. That will not stand. This is a strong, properly directed, and stinging admonishment to Adam for tarnishing this discussion with 'Communist Cold War' type lies. Adam - these lies are why I suspect, with each post, a) that you are now Likud, b) why you cannot respond to posted facts (ie. stealing of Palestinian lands), c) why you justify live ammunition against rock throwing children, and d) why you posted that embarrassingly obvious propaganda nonsense in http://www.facts4peace.com .

Great men sent women to face down oppressers - Ganghi. Great men sent children to face down oppressers - Martin Luther King. That is what great leaders of oppressed people must do when humanity's enemies control the Army. Children throwing rocks against an unlawful oppressor is normal throughout history.

Furthermore, when parents try to stop children from joining the intifada (a published fact that Adam repeatedly denies) AND when those children must stand up to Tanks, THEN the oppressor is not a peace keeper. The picture 'Man vs Tank' tells us how corrupt the Israeli powers-that-be have become. Just as a burning Buddist priest tried to warn us same about another corrupt government - S VietNam - then see the picture Man vs Tank.

Supporters of a corrupt governments would blame the kid and his parents OR the priest and his religion.

Man vs Tank defines the Middle East because 1) Palestinians have land and property stolen without due process (again in the US news weekly and not denied even by Adam), 2) even non-Arab members of Israel's Knesset can have their homes burned with no police protection or investigation (only a Master Race attitude would permit that to happen), and 3) Israelis routinely settle in the West Bank and Gaza in direct violation of International proclaimations AND in direct violation of agreements signed by the Israeli government. Man vs Tank defines how corrupt and racist a power behind that tank has become.

The mind only boggles that so many examples of racism result in "Not One" denial or apology.

I started this discussion with strong beliefs that Likud is out of control. However just what I read here - the lack of any coherent response to many news reports and other facts - I must suspect that a diseased mentality exists far beyond the Likud party. Ethnic cleansing is not just the attitude of Likud. Israeli ethnic cleansing is acceptable even in the US! I am appauled to be forced to conclude that an anti-humanity bias exists among American Jews - and that is even scarier. Yes - the mind boggles that there is not one denial of published facts and resulting conclusions both in this thread and in its sibling thread in Current Events.

However victims have been blamed??? No apologies for violations of laws or Human Rights. Just blame the victims. Go figure.

In response to the blinding silence from those to accuse Palestinians of bombing Spring City(g):

Last Monday the BBC announced that Israel will begin investigations into murders of 13 non-Jewish Israeli citizens. Amazing. Those murders happened over 1 year ago. This is progress. An outgoing Israeli government has decided that non-Jewish murders should be investigated. Had the victims been Jewish citizens, then the Israeli Air Force would have started bombing that day?

Listen, Tom, I know you have it in for Israel. Fine, have it your way. But I'm not going to constantly respond to your straw man posts.

One last statement from me on this subject: why do you never mention Palestinian atrocities against Israeli Jews? Car bombs? Buses plowing into crowds? Molotov cocktails thrown at soldiers by trained militiamen using children as human shields? Make no bones about it- the PA is cynically using Palestinian children as human shields, literally bribing their parents to place them in harm's way.

I do notice, though, that most of your sources- US and UK media- are known for strong anti-Israeli and pro-Palestinian bias. The BBC and ABC News have been particularly blatant in this regard.

Finally, I invite everyone to read the article linked below. It is by a Muslim cleric on the competing Jewish and Muslim claims to both the land of Israel and Jerusalem. It's quite an interesting read.

http://shell.spqr.net/islam/racism.html

All things considered, etc.
Z

Actually Adam, I was a greater friend of Israel than you are. A country's best friends are those who stick to the facts without emotional ties. It was why Israel once had great support in the US and UK press. Unlike you, I am not afraid to label a mass murder as a dic head because I don't care about anyone's religion (as long as he does not try to impose it on me). In almost a decade of Cellar posts, I NEVER used four letter words. That is how evil that beloved dic head, mother fucking Prime Minister is.

Your response? Don't acknowledge facts and maybe the facts will go away. If you do not call the dic head what he is, then you must support the man. If you were an honest human, then you would acknowledge that the Prime Minister of Israel is responsible for mass murders, insubordination, and advocating the murder of Rabin. You will not because you really like the dic head? If you did not like the dic head, then you would acknowledge Sharon is evil. You can't do that. You can't bring yourself to be honest.

No wonder you claim the death of a few Israelis is a major crisis. So few Jews have died that the pragmatic number is zero. Zero, Adam. You conveniently forget many Israeli deaths are non-Jews - murdered by rabid dogs from the Lukid mentality. Yes Adam. Many Israeli deaths are by right wing Jewish attack groups that execute without fear of prosecution. You would suggest those were Jews murdered by Palestinians.

Facts are that not enough Jews are dying to be significant whereas Jews routinely steal land and murder other religions - a fact you conveniently keep ignoring.

Your credibility is becoming pathetic because you don't have the balls to even call Israel's Prime Minister what he is - a mass murdering, insubordinate dic head. Standup for the country you love. Be an honest man. Call the dic head Prime Minister an enemy of all peoples. You can't. Your religion gets in the way of logical thought. Others should notice how religion can actually convert honest men into blood sucking racists. Adam cannot even admit the history of a dic head Prime Minister.

Lets get one thing straight, Adam. Israel once had no stronger ally than in me. But I do not remain attached to anything based on emotion or religion. Facts form my opinions. Israel has slowly changed from an honest nation to a country dominated by racism. If you think the US and UK press are against Israel, then you are simply thinking like a paranoid Richard Nixon.

Spring City is tiring of bombs. Therefore they bulldozed the road once used by the 99 Bus. Rediculous? Of course. We don't punish whole cities because of one man's crime AND we don't elect mass murders to be our leaders.

However the NY Times Sunday 25 Feb 2001 - front page picture - hundreds walking the beach because Israel "bulldozed" the north south road. Why? Two bombs on that road. Screw everyone. Since all non-Jews are only dogs, then cut the road. Punish everyone because a Jew might have been hurt.

Is this a responsible democracy or a goverment of KKK racist types? That NY Times picture demonstrates what the Israel government has now become.

With all the accusations that Israel is violating the human rights of the Palestinian soldiers who fire at from behind children, with orders from the PA leadership to the parents to send their children out to act as human shields, there hasn't been a peep here about the US and UK dropping literally tons of pounds of bombs and similar munitions on Iraq. These bombs, while ostensibly aimed "surgically" at Iraqi guns and radar installations, likely killed more Iraqui civilians in a day than rioting Palestinians killed by Israeli security forces since their latest intifada began.

Some would argue that these two issues are not morally equivalent, and I agree wholeheartedly. The mainland of the US is, in no way, threatened by Iraq, only cheap oil prices (which were the main reason for the Gulf War in the first place). Anything which happens in Israel is, by definition, happening on the Israeli mainland, and terrorist bombs have exploded in both the largest Israeli city and its capital. Compare that to car bombs and bus bombings in NYC and Washington, DC, and then ask yourself how the US would react? Likely by bombing another third world country like Sudan or Afghanistan, ostensibly to kill Osama bin Laden again.

Oh, but the US has an excuse- it's our media which defines things as good or bad.

Just an observation,
Z

Originally posted by tw

Facts are that not enough Jews are dying to be significant whereas Jews routinely steal land and murder other religions - a fact you conveniently keep ignoring.

You certainly lost me there. First of all, the Israeli government does not represent all jews. Secondly, as for murdering members of other religions, in the Middle East this is an equal opportunity sport, with small groups of arabs, jews, and christians with blood on their hands.

I think it's fairly obvious that the US "freed" Kuwait because of the beautiful object known as oil. How funny that it took us forever to go after Yugoslavia, but it only took 5 months to save Kuwait. Hmmm...Bosnia and Kosovo offer us...nothing. (No offense to them, but what does Kuwait offer?)

As many of you might know, Binyamin Netanyahu was in town a few weeks ago. And quite frankly, he worries me, as does Ariel Sharon. He mentioned how the original borders of Israel (in 1948) were too much of a security concern. So my question is, what exactly does having the Golan Heights, Gaza, and the West Bank really give Israel? After all, they still border Egypt, Jordan, etc. And because the West Bank was not exactly "theirs," just what right did Israel have building settlements there?

I don't deny that the Jews have been through hell and back, but does that truly justify the wars that have been fought over the course of 53 years of the State of Israel's existence? True, the Arabs tried to crush the Israelis, but failed. But during the various battles, intifadas, etc., it would seem that Israel is no better than the Arab nations they have fought for so long.

(On a side note, as much money as we give to Israel in aid, why have there been so many problems in extraditing people from Israel to the US to stand trial for crimes such as murder?)

Originally posted by richlevy
[QUOTE]Originally posted by tw
Facts are that not enough Jews are dying to be significant whereas Jews routinely steal land and murder other religions - a fact you conveniently keep ignoring.

You certainly lost me there. First of all, the Israeli government does not represent all jews. Secondly, as for murdering members of other religions, in the Middle East this is an equal opportunity sport, with small groups of arabs, jews, and christians with blood on their hands. [/QUOTE]

In the context of the post - it was not 'all jews'. It is Israeli Jews who are but a subgroup of Israeli citizens. Those who confuse issues so as to avoid mentioning Sharon and Jewish land stealing also would have you believe that the number of dead Israeli citizens is all Jewish. Many of those dead Israeli citizens were non-Jewish Israelis killed by extremist right wing Jewish murders protected by people such as the racist, Jewish Supremistist Ariel Sharon.

In Israel, most murders are executed by Jewish Israeli citizens. In Israel, if you kill a dog or a Palestinian, then it is only an accident report. Most blood inside Israel is on Jewish hands, yet no Jewish murders are prosecuted. Furthermore, most non-Jewish murders are never even considered for investigation. Therefore Israel dominates top categories in the recent Human Rights Abuse report. Therefore the recent BBC report so surprising: Israeli government will actually investigate the murder of 13 non-Jewish Israeli citizens? How many foreign aid dollars were withheld from Israeli to make that miracle happen?

History demonstrates that an equal peace settlement will only happen when Jewish Israeli deaths are anywhere near the death rates of non-Jewish residents. Presently, death rates among Jewish Israelis is almost zero - despite posted propaganda here. For peace to happen, far more Jewish Israelis must be murdered - to bring the general population back to logical sense. Presently, Israel is even more 'emotionally in denial' than Adam. This "god's chosen people" nonsense only proves that religion in government is the devil's handiwork.

Adam has demonstrated only some of this extremist, illogical mindset. He accepts dic head Sharon as a legitamate leader. He posted "We'll still be around when the US is a mere entry in a history book. We outlasted the Babylonians, we outlasted the Romans, and we outlasted the Nazis. They all tried to kill us, and they all failed. So will Arafat and company." He also posted this nonsense to avoid embarrassing facts and UN Resolution 242: "I give up, tw. Obviously, you would far prefer it if all us annoying kikes were to get up and jump in the ocean ...". Then he advocates this fundamental violation of basic human rights: "... Israeli soldiers have the right to fire back when attacked. And, yes, rocks and Molotov cocktails thrown at you *do* constitute attacks."

The above 'Richard Nixon' inferiority complex is major part of the problem. To avoid admitting that Israel's Prime Minster is a mass murder, instead, Adam labels that history as "straw man"! Notice not once does Adam ever suggest or discuss what would be an equitible peace settlement. He totally avoids even acknowledging UN Resolution 242 as if it were a venomous snake. UN Resolution 242 is a requirement for peace. Adam cannot even type "242" as if the expression would create cancer or crash his computer disk.

Any peace settlement with Palestinian 'dogs' is not mentioned or implied. Adam is not an extremist. Just imagine how worse these so-called America friends are. Israel is now dominated and governed by racists who make George Wallace and Lester Maddox look like saints - and that is acceptable even to a non-extremist Adam.

In this situation, the death rate of Isreali Jews has to greatly exceed the current, near zero death rate before peace can occur.

Actually, Tom, <b>have</b> mentioned in the past that I was in favor of both the Oslo accords and the Wye River Accords which followed them. Unfortunately, due to stubbornness on both sides, and later due to a planned uprising which used Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount- Israeli territory, whether or not the US media wants to acknowledge it- as an excuse.

I have come to an unfortunate conclusion about the peace process, though. Namely, that it is impossible for negotiations to succeed when the negotiators do not even agree on what it is that is being negotiated for. Both sides say "peace," but it seems quite clear that they disagree on what, precisely, "peace" means.

For the Israelis, "peace" means something along the lines of "we don't like you, you don't like us, but let's stop killing each other for a change." Not a "warm peace," by any means- expecting an immediately warm peace with any Palestinian state would be foolish at this point- but even the coldest peace is better than active bloodshed.

For the PLO (and, let's not kid ourselves, that's with whom the Israelis are negotiating) peace means "Jews jump in the Mediterranean." Indeed, for most of the Arab world, that seems to be the definition of peace with Israel, since all of them save Jordan and Egypt are officially in a state of war with Israel.

Am I happy about this? Of course not! I had a vision a while back of a future when Jews and Arabs in the middle east- b'nai Yitzhak and b'nai Yishmael (sons of Issac and sons of Ishmael- the brothers who were the sons of the Patriarch Abraham)- work together, using mutually-beneficial trade, technologies, and resources to build the Middle East into an economic power to rival the European Union and the US. Unfortunately, this is not likely while no country in the region save Israel has a freely-elected government.

But, I point out that the history of co-operation between Jews and Arabs- indeed, co-operation between Jews and Muslims- is *far* better than the history of co-operation between Jews and Christians or Muslims and Christians. The basis for co-existance, and even alliance, is there. But before any of that can happen, Palestinian self-rule must be more democratic than dictatorial in nature. As Kant noted, democratic republics are not likely to wage war against one another, both because the citizens of each will recognize the legimacy of other democratic republics and because it's bad business to shoot your trading partners.

We can keep spinning around and around and around all we want- we're not likely to solve anything short of a "bomb the whole bloody place and pave it the hell over" solution. That, at least, would leave *everyone* equally infuriated. As I've seen written, "for every tough problem there is a simple, easy to understand, wrong solution." And that, my friends, is what people have been positing in regards to the Arab-Israeli conflict ever since it began.

Oy,
Z

Originally posted by adamzion
Actually, Tom, <b>have</b> mentioned in the past that I was in favor of both the Oslo accords and the Wye River Accords which followed them. Unfortunately, due to stubbornness on both sides, and later due to a planned uprising which used Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount- Israeli territory, whether or not the US media wants to acknowledge it- as an excuse. ...

That is closer to the current Middle East situation. However the Barak opinion was "we don't like you, you don't like us, but let's stop killing each other for a change AND finalize the details later." Arafat's position was "we don't like you, you don't like us, but let's stop killing each other for a change AND finalize the details now because other administrations (Likud) constantly reneged."

Dic head Sharon said "all Palestinians are inferior scum shit so I will destroy peace by taking hundreds of racist pigs with me to violate sacred lands". Of course unbiased people know that shit licker Sharon is THE central reason for destruction of peace and THE reason for the revival of the intafada. Only lying extremists would say that mothers sent their children out to become martyrs. Only extremist fools would believe Sharon lies. Sharon has used propaganda tactics that would have made Hitler proud. He is central to destruction of all peace - no others come close to being such a cock chewing, mother fucker.


There are many other parties to this dispute. Your summary remains significantly in error because, as a Jew, you see your enemies as one. Instead view it as Kennedy did Krushchev during the Cuban Missile crisis. Arafat is desperatly holding together a Palestinian people who could easily turn to other extremist Arab groups. Those others do say "Jews jump in the Mediterranean." Unfortunately, Adam, your Israeli brethen are too extemist to see good Palestinians from bad. Indeed, these extremists Jews will continue to do everything to destroy peace including occupation of the West Bank knowing full well that they are stealing land from dogs - screw any and all peace settlement. Israel is also full of mass murder advocates like Sharon. Mostly, they are called Likud.

What should happen to Jerusalem? It should be handed to Buddists. All Arabs and Jews should be removed from Jerusalem and must pay Buddist monks to visit Jerusalem only during daylight hours. IOW both religions would then be treated as they currently deserve. Realistically, that cannot happen, but it is a fair settlement because any religion in this dispute is the silly reason for all deaths. The enemy of peace will always be religion and religious leaders. There are teaching from Kahlil Gibran
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0394404289/qid=983402192/sr=1-1/ref=sc_b_1/103-6154385-2293431
that could settle this. But such ideas have never been acceptable to Orthodox and Palestinian extremists. Furthermore, too many Jews simply cannot see the difference between the PLO and extremist Palestinian - too much religion in their brains occupying space that should be used for intelligence.

Gibran's teachings are the antonym of what Sharon and Likud stand for. Gibran is what made religion good. Those who religiously worship a silly Bible and Koran are more often enemies of humanity.

IOW not enough people have died because all this hate and anger is directly traceable to religious leaders, their holy books, and a worship of false idols. Man vs Tank is a classic picture repeated throughout the world when religion is the basis for decision. Religion extremism; anyone who puts religion into government, politics, or social setting; is really the enemy of all human existance.

IOW, Adam, Arafat says almost what Barak was saying. However, even you, a non-extremist, still cannot separate anti-humantiy, Jewish extremist rhetoric from what almost could have happend at Wye, et al. You are not the only one, which is why another Hilter like leader is now called Prime Minister of Israel. That is the irony of Man vs Tank. The current Israeli Prime Minister thinks just like an early 1930 Hitler - because he represents extremist religous beliefs. So evil that children must now stand up against Tanks.

Until neanderthals are properly labeled dic heads by much more than one person, then peace is not possible. The requirements for peace exist. UN Resolution 242 IS fundamental to all Middle East peace. You should be acknowledging and advocating UN 242. You don't.

The West Bank must be swept clean of internationally illegal Israeli settlements. That would happen if Jewish Israeli death rates were anywhere as high as all non-Jewish death rates. But currently, a mother fucker has too much support even from a Labor party. Man vs Tank should be repeated with a Jewish child throwing rocks at an Arab tank. Only then would both sides suddenly discover they always had same definition for peace.

Again, Ted Koppel's Town Meeting in Israel demonstrated Likud's 'fuck everyone who is not Jewish' attitude that has only hardened. Place the Mayor of Jerusalem as an example of evil. He could pass as a Nazi party leader the way he tirades. Sharon, et al is THE reason that even Barak and Arafat could not finalizing details. They came so close only to have that cock sucker Sharon brillantly destroy the whole process.

Elected government: you conveniently forget the creation of a world's greatest leader - King Hussein of Jordan. Jordan also has a freely elected government. Maybe you forgot that because Jordan is a Arabic nation? You also forget Turkey. Then there is Iran, a country that almost elects their government except for another evil - religious leaders there also dominate thinking - just like Likud's mentality. Israel has no monopoly on free elections in the region. For that matter, Israel is accused of numerous election irregularities in non-Jewish Israel voting districts - irregularities that make FL insignificant. Your extremist bretheren will conveniently forget that also - as well as who tops the recent Human Rights Abuse lists.


[Edited by tw on 02-28-2001 at 07:01 PM]

FYI, the <u>Daily Star</u> is known to be rather virulently anti-Israeli, so this article could hardly be said to suffer from pro-Israel bias.

The article is availble at http://www.dailystar.com.lb/03_03_01/art4.htm

<quote>
PA minister says intifada planned

Mohammed Zaatari
Daily Star correspondent

A Palestinian Cabinet minister said on Friday that the five-month-old uprising against Israel had been planned since the Camp David peace talks failed in July, contradicting past contentions of a spontaneous outburst from Palestinians on the street.

Imad Faluji, the Palestinian National Authority¹s Communications Minister, said during a PLO rally in Ain al-Hilweh refugee camp outside of Sidon that it was a mistake to think that the intifada was sparked by Israeli Prime Minister-elect Ariel Sharon¹s controversial visit to Al-Aqsa mosque compound in late September.

³It had been planned since Chairman Arafat¹s return from Camp David, when he turned the tables in the face of the former US president (Bill Clinton) and rejected the American
conditions,² Faluji said.

At the US presidential retreat of Camp David, Maryland, Clinton had pressed Arafat to make concessions, particularly on the return of Palestinian refugees, in response to outgoing Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak¹s willingness to surrender some Jerusalem neighborhoods to the Palestinians.
Barak¹s unprecedented step is widely viewed as contributing to Sharon¹s election victory.

Faluji¹s remarks contrast with previous Palestinian statements blaming Sharon¹s visit to the mosque compound for sparking a spontaneous uprising by Palestinians frustrated with the peace process. Israel has long contended the intifada, in which more than 400 people have been killed, was planned.

Faluji did not elaborate on the planning or who was involved.

He also said the PLO was reviving its ³military action² groups to escalate the fighting against Israel and called for a meeting of Arab defense ministers to ³face up to Israeli aggression.²

³The PLO is going back to the 60s, 70s and 80s. The Fatah Hawks, the Kassam Brigades, the Red Eagle and all the military action groups are returning to work,² he told a crowd of nearly 2,500 people who included local Palestinian faction leaders.

Faluji warned Israel that it would not ³enjoy a single night of calm² if Palestinians continued to be killed at the hands of the Jewish state.

He praised the stand adopted by Lebanon and Syria in backing the Palestine cause. ³What the Zionist entity faced in south Lebanon will be a picnic compared with what it will face when the Palestinian people become enraged,² he said. ³The Palestinian resistance will strike in Tel Aviv, Jerusalem and in every inch of Palestinian territory.

³Palestinian vengeance will be harder and stronger than many expect Š we won¹t let Israel enjoy a single night of calm as long Palestinian blood continues to flow.²

He argued that Palestinians were in Lebanon temporarily ³and it¹s not permissible to encroach on the right of refugees to return (to their homeland) in accordance with United Nations
Resolution 194.² - with agencies

</quote>

The article cuts off at "with agencies."

Originally posted by adamzion
FYI, the <u>Daily Star</u> is known to be rather virulently anti-Israeli, so this article could hardly be said to suffer from pro-Israel bias.

The article is availble at http://www.dailystar.com.lb/03_03_01/art4.htm

<quote>
PA minister says intifada planned

Mohammed Zaatari
Daily Star correspondent

A Palestinian Cabinet minister said on Friday that the five-month-old uprising against Israel had been planned since the Camp David peace talks failed in July, contradicting past contentions of a spontaneous outburst from Palestinians on the street. ...

Unfortunately this is good news. Too many non-Jewish Israelis and non-Israelis have been murdered; not enough Jewish Israelis die. Once Jewish Israelis death rates increase substancially, only then will mainstream Jews reject the dic head Sharon and Likud; and decide to live in peace with the other religions. Presently, the motherfuckers even have Adam brainwashed with that nonsense whiel they steal West Bank and Gaza land illegally, and even deny non-Jewish Israelis their effective voting rights.

For example, Adam will report every rare Jewish Israeli death but will remain silent for days on end while extremist Jews daily murder non-Jewish Israeli citizens and non-Israeli citizens. These Jewish murderers are never investigated nor reported by the extremist right wing Jewish press - and are ignored by Adam who has never once reported the murder of a non-Jew by an Israeli Jew. If Adam was really a friend of Israel, then he would be condemning the fuck face Sharon here and immediately. He does not because he only reports extremist rhetoric; and then must cry that the US and UK press is anti-Israeli.

I am a student of Nam. When someone (ie Nixon) calls the NY Times, et al an enemy, then look at the accuser for the real enemy. When the US and UK press is called anti-Israeli, then look at accusers to identify the real anti-Israeli. They are called right wing Israelis. We know the current ass-hole Prime Minister of Israel advocated the death of a predecessor (Rabin) and inspired the current intafada; since, just like Hilter, such instabilities would get Sharon more power. Sharon loves creating the intafada and then getting others to blame the victims - non-Jewish Israelis and non-Israelis.

[Bit #1]
BULLETS AT MARDI GRAS

A CNN article (February 25, 2001), entitled "Violence mars Mardi Gras parties in Austin, Seattle," reports:

"[P]olice in Seattle used pepper spray and rubber bullets to break up an unruly crowd of up to 2,000 people after bars closed at 2 a.m. Many in the crowd were drinking, removing their clothes or climbing on cars and light posts, police spokeswoman Pam McCammon said."

As Seattle police fire on the crowd with rubber bullets, where is the media outrage against this excessive use of force? Where is the international inquiry?

Israeli soldiers are consistently condemned for using these same rubber bullets, despite the fact that Israelis are attacked with firebombs and live ammunition –- an arguably greater danger than drunken Seattle partiers whose act of aggression was "removing their clothes."

It is also interesting that CNN refers here to "rubber bullets," whereas in reports on Israel, CNN goes out of its way to use the more ominous description: "rubber-coated
steel bullets."

Ironically, the Mardi Gras incident comes the same week that the U.S. State Department issued a human rights report condemning Israel for "often using excessive force against Palestinian demonstrators."

This also comes on the heels of a report that Taliban troops rounded up and shot an estimated 500 civilians in central Afghanistan. There was no U.N. condemnation.

[Bit #2]
BOMBING IN NETANYA

In its coverage of the heinous terrorist bombing this week in Netanya, many media outlets placed primary emphasis on the fact that an Arab man was beaten in the aftermath, while relegating to short mention the fact that 3 Jews were killed and scores injured.

In a further effort to whitewash Palestinian terrorism, media outlets (CNN and BBC among them) refrained from labeling the Palestinian bomber a “terrorist,” calling him
a "militant" instead.

An especially creative technique was employed by the New York Times, which ran the following headline:

"Suicide Bomber Kills 3 Israelis After Deaths of 6 Palestinians"

The implication is that the bombing of Jewish civilians is justified as retaliation. In truth, the 6 Arab deaths occurred over a number of days, and it is spurious to draw
any correlation. Besides, does the Times really wish to suggest that suicide bombing is justified?

The Times photo caption was equally inaccurate and misleading: "Israeli witnesses screamed for vengeance yesterday after a suicide bombing, and some beat Arab
bystanders." The photo does not depict an angry lynch mob. It shows women crying and in shock at the ghastly terrorist carnage that lays before them.

Of course, Tom no doubt considers both the US media underplaying the Mardi Gras riots and police countermeasures and the deaths of the Israelis in the Netanya bombing to be a good thing.

Just your annoying local Jew who isn't meekly accepting anything,
Z

Adam forgets a few points. For example in the last 4 weeks, 14 Israelis (Jewish and non-Jewish) died - whereas Palestinians die every day. Did you know that Gaza strip is now surrouned by a deep trench and barb wire - just like a concentration camp. Curious that Israeli extremist would not see the irony (hate creates blindness). Furthermore, Israelis also used live ammunition - Seattle does not. Adam previously said that using live ammunition was acceptable - when it is violation of international peacekeeping procedures. But then Adam often repeats the attitudes of anti-humaity and anti-world extremists - without any representation of the story's other side. Adam reiterates the half truths of a man who advocated the murder of Prime Minister Rabin.

We did not see Seattle police firing live ammo. We did not see dead Seattle demonstrators. AND we did not have a Seattle government that created the volence - then blamed all others.

Adam conveniently and continuously refuses to call Sharon an evil man - let alone the dic head that Sharon is. Adam conveniently ignores one point - the intafada was created by a man who craves political power - who advocated the murder of a previous Prime Minisiter - who setup the massacre of innocent civilians in Lebanon - who invaded Lebanon even in direct violation of his Prime Minister - and who almost got every reader here killed because he brought the US and USSR to Defcon 4 - one step from total nuclear war. Violate a cease fire with Egypt? Who cares. The Americans, Egypitians, Soviets - they are all inferior to the great and almight Sharon - dic head champ of the world.

A fundamental point remains that Adam respects someone with a history not unlike 1930 Hitler - except that Hitler did his massacres only after he was in power. Israelis elected as Prime Minister a man who advocates not just murder - but racial and religious hate crimes as well.

The bottom line in the picture Man vs Tank: Sharon and Likud are so corrupt that even boys must stand up to tanks - curiously as in Tianenaman Square a decade earlier.

I've met you face-to-face once, and I've seen you post here for years. You've always struck me as an intelligent, decent sort, albeit a bit long-winded at times.

But you simply cannot discuss the violence in the mid-east without resorting to ad hominem attacks on Jews, the Jewish state, or its leaders. This makes it all but impossible to actually discuss things with you in a civilized manner.

I shall continue to point out the inconsistencies in US- and British- media coverage of the crisis in Israel, but I can no longer debate them with you, since you seem bound and determined to ignore all facts which do not fit into your preconceived notion of "Israel=bad/Palestinians=good."

Sad, really,
Z

Originally posted by adamzion
I've met you face-to-face once, and I've seen you post here for years. You've always struck me as an intelligent, decent sort, albeit a bit long-winded at times.

But you simply cannot discuss the violence in the mid-east without resorting to ad hominem attacks on Jews, the Jewish state, or its leaders. This makes it all but impossible to actually discuss things with you in a civilized manner.

I shall continue to point out the inconsistencies in US- and British- media coverage of the crisis in Israel, but I can no longer debate them with you, since you seem bound and determined to ignore all facts which do not fit into your preconceived notion of "Israel=bad/Palestinians=good."

Where is an attack on Jews? If critcizing an election of a mass murder is an attack on a religion, well, I don't see the connection. My every post is clearly in the interest of Israel because presently, Israel is doing things similar or worse than 1930 Germany. Currently intelligent Jews are being railroaded by a hate promoting devil. To stay silent on this issue would be to promote the destruction of Israel.

Last night I listened to Radio Israel. They reported on some violence in the area and a new administration that promots peace. Nothing more. How absurd. Listening to Swiss Radio said something completely different - because they did not report half truths. The current Israeli government talks peace WHILE completing an isolation of Palestinian towns with deep, wide trenchs AND now they are cutting telephone wires and *water* supplies! Is that a peace loving western government or one building Warsaw ghettos? Can you not see the irony in all this? The Jews are acting just like pre-WWII Nazi? To not say so is to be the enemy of Israel.

Responsible news services - including Radio Japan - report same. But from Radio Israel we have this half truth - Sharon is seeking peace.

Can you not see the evil dic head? For those late to this thread, dic head and all other four letter words are not found in my posts since the days of The Cellar Mark I - over a decade ago. That is how evil this one man is - the turd face Ariel Sharon whose long history is violence, insubordination, massacres, advocating the assisination of a major world leader, attempting to create WWIII, invasion of a soveign nation, and now recreating the intafada. The current Prime Minister of Israel is everything that Israel once stood against. But even more embarrassing, moderate Jews will not even condemn this racist.

As stated before, I have posted to the benefit of Israel. This is not Serbia, Iraq, Indonesia, etc where hate crimes a massacres were routinely conducted. This is Israel, a country that could freely elect its leaders, that once stood for western traditions and human rights, and that acts no different than Milosevic of Yugoslavia. Israel is now a shameful disaster to all peoples. Yet American Jews embarrassingly remain silent - therefore advocating the destruction of Israel. I am appauled. And further appauled that, by representing the interests of Israel, instead, I would be attack for doing so by a Jew.

The facts on Sharon are accurately posted and not in dispute. Therefore we attack the messenger? Go figure.
UK and US press are not distorting the facts. It is the entire western world that is reporting accurately the evils of extremist Jewish leaders.

Originally posted by tw

The facts on Sharon are accurately posted and not in dispute. Therefore we attack the messenger? Go figure.
UK and US press are not distorting the facts. It is the entire western world that is reporting accurately the evils of extremist Jewish leaders.

Clinton said it best a few months ago--neither side will get everything they want. Israel will lose East Jerusalem (which they took illegally anyway) and Palestine will not be a completely connected state and will be very dependent on Israel. Sharon simply reminds me too much of Netanyahu, and the peace process will again be derailed. But the Palestinians rioting in the streets will not help their cause either.

It would also seem that Israelis change their minds as often as Americans. From Netanyahu to Barak to Sharon in what? A few years? Less than that.

I don't know if you've already been there tw, but you might be interested in checking out Amnesty International's website. They have extensive documentation on Israel.

http://www.amnesty.org

Originally posted by sycamore

I don't know if you've already been there tw, but you might be interested in checking out Amnesty International's website. They have extensive documentation on Israel.

http://www.amnesty.org

The highlighted report covers last year. Previously, the petty theif Netanyahu was Prime Minister. As a result, the report makes what happened obvious in its 1st paragraph:

Official permission for torture and ill-treatment ended in September when the High Court ruled that various interrogation techniques used by the General Security Service (GSS) were unlawful. Scores of Palestinian administrative detainees were released during 1999,...

Under a decent man [Barak], scores of illegally held Palestinian prisioners were released and the intafada stopped and the High Courts could operate responsibily. Since then, the dic head brillantly restarted an intafada and them became Prime Minister by blaming others for the problems - easy to do in country whose international news broadcasts even only report half truths. When will the Israeli press acknowledge the current contruction of Warsaw ghettos?

Most reader probably don't remember days of VietNam. However they should have read Pentagon Papers. In those days, the US public was routinely lied to by routine ommission and half truths; especially by Nixon and his aides. Remember '4 shot in Ohio' - and the coverup that followed? Live ammo in riot conditions should have benn a felony murder conviction - in the US or Israel. Time Magazine's publisher so disliked honest news reports from his Hong Kong based reporters in VietNam that he had their stories completely rewritten in NYC and Washington only with information from government sources. Read Halbersham's famous book "The Powers that Be" to appreciate what happens when the government - Nixon or Sharon - are the enemy of the country.

The NY Times properly reported the VietNam disaster and was instead domestically declared a communist newspaper by right wing conservatives. You probably don't remember much about VietNam and therefore don't appreciate how much lying was executed routinely by those 'Powers that Be' to coverup who was the real enemy. "We have met the enemy and he is us."

In Israel, news stories were censored by the military. At one point, all American reporters would add that little footnote at the end of their report - until Israeli government officals realized that it was exposing how corrupt the Israeli government had become. There is no NY Times equivalent in Israel to report the whole story - thanks to 'powers that be' such as Likud. Like Nam, the people of Israel read only half truths. Then insist that the US and UK press are anti-Israeli and antiSemitic only because the rest of the story - such as Warsaw ghettos - are not reported.

The resulting violence is inevitable when the government conspires even to violate basic human rights of their own Israeli, but non-Jewish, citizens. Why is that not reported in domestic Israeli news? Clearly US and UK news stories are biased against Israel for reporting this? Go figure. No wonder Israel elected someone more criminal than the crook Richard Nixon. Even their own press does not report the whole story - including the newly constructed Warsaw Ghettoes.

Who mentions that glaring ommission from Radio Jerusalem news reports. Someone who speaks in the better interests of Israel. Notice that some Jews forget (or don't know) that Warsaw ghettos are under construction - nor appreciate the irony of the event. Looking forward to http://www.amnesty.org 's report for this year. Some will have to declare Amnesty International as antiSemitic.

Originally posted by sycamore
I don't know if you've already been there tw, but you might be interested in checking out Amnesty International's website. They have extensive documentation on Israel.
[/B]

I would only note that, while Israel is roundly condemned in the US and UK media for human rights violations, the PA and the surrounding Arab regimes- dictatorships, every one- seem to get off scot free in most of the media's eyes. Ain't no angels here, sadly enough.

Note that Tom gets almost all of his information from the aforementioned US and UK media.

Consider the media source at all times- all media is biased in some way or another,
Z

Originally posted by adamzion
Note that Tom gets almost all of his information from the aforementioned US and UK media.

Consider the media source at all times- all media is biased in some way or another,

I guess I did not hear the same news story from Swiss Radio International? It must have been my imagination. The Swiss said the same thing. It is only Israel that is not telling the whole story. Are you denying the newly constructed Warsaw ghettos - or just ignoring them?

Amnesty Intl also noted human rights abuses among Palestinians. But they not have a special red hyperlink for a problem worse than Kosovo. It's called Israel.

So is Amnesty International also as biased as CNN? Of course not. The bias is in the Likud party line - and those not of the party who don't call the dic head by his proper four letter word descriptions.

Are the US and UK press guilty because they elected a mass murders as Prime Minister? Come on Adam. You support one of the world's greatest enemies by your silence. He advocated the murder of a great man, Rabin. Why do you spit on the grave of Rabin - by not calling Israel's Prime Minister the ass wiper that he is? At least have the decency to acknowledge a strong similarity between 1930 Hitler and today's Ariel Sharon. You can't even do that, so instead you must blame the media?

Originally posted by adamzion
I would only note that, while Israel is roundly condemned in the US and UK media for human rights violations, the PA and the surrounding Arab regimes- dictatorships, every one- seem to get off scot free in most of the media's eyes. Ain't no angels here, sadly enough.

Note that Tom gets almost all of his information from the aforementioned US and UK media.

Consider the media source at all times- all media is biased in some way or another,
Z

That was the first thing that came to mind when I read AI's report--"A little biased against Israel." The one thing that concerned me was that I saw nothing about Palestine against Israel, but Palestine against their OWN people. And quite frankly, no one can tell me that Palestine (or other Arab countries) have not committed atrocities against Israel during the past 53 years.

Don't worry, Adam. I just happened to read that info and thought of Tom first. If I find some ammo for you, I'll send it along. :-)

Also, how ironic that Israel is attacked by media in the US (Israel's banking specialist) and the UK (Israel's former colonial power). Although, it seemed like the US was pro-Israel for the longest. Only recently has the balance shifted against Israel...at least from what I've seen.

Not that there should be bias anyway...

[Edited by sycamore on 03-13-2001 at 06:56 PM]

Originally posted by sycamore
Also, how ironic that Israel is attacked by media in the US (Israel's banking specialist) and the UK (Israel's former colonial power). Although, it seemed like the US was pro-Israel for the longest. Only recently has the balance shifted against Israel...at least from what I've seen.
[/B]

I've read that the US media's view of Israel changed dramatically after it won the Six Day War in 1967, which culminated in Israel recapturing the Old City of Jerusalem (which was, contrary to what the media says today, traditionally the <b>Jewish</b> quarter). After that, Israel ceased, in the eyes of the media, to be the "dogged underdog," and was replaced in that role by the Palestinians.

So, even though the Palestinians are members of a group of nations which, collectively, control millions of square miles of territory and billions of dollars of oil; and while Israel is the <b>only</b> Jewish state in the past 2000 years, is roughly the size of New Jersey, and has few natural resources other than its people, the Israelis are the oppressors and the Palestinians are the underdogs. Go fig.

Guh,
Z

I don't take sides on the Middle East much but the Palestinians are clearly the underdog. Look at the picture that started this thread.

Originally posted by adamzion
I've read that the US media's view of Israel changed dramatically after it won the Six Day War in 1967 ... After that, Israel ceased, in the eyes of the media, to be the "dogged underdog," and was replaced in that role by the Palestinians.

So, even though the Palestinians are members of a group of nations which, collectively, control millions of square miles of territory and billions of dollars of oil; ...

Everyone is Israel's enemy? The Saudi's are really Palestinians in disguise? Egyptians are only Palestinians in disguise? Jordanians are only Palestinians in disguise? Turks are only Palestinians in disguise? Get real - or at least stop being paranoid.

America should have attacked Israel in 1967 because the Israeli government *intentionally* attacked the USS Liberty killing thirty some US service men and a few American civilians with the obvious intention of sinking USS Liberty. USS Liberty attacked was for reasons that officially are not clear. However (and also repeated by retired Fort Meade employees), USS Liberty was close to and monitoring a Israeli massacre of their Egyptian prisoners (retire employess say the massacre definitely happened - no doubt). Why did Israeli planes, then later Israeli PT boats attack a US ship for under 2 hours when they all knew it to be American? America still remained supportive of Israel.

American pro-Israeli attitudes were so strong that US press even dismissed Sadat's 1973 claims that war would occur if Israel continued to refuse to negotiate. Sadat said he would attack. An extremely pro-Israeli press called it a surprise attack - even though Sadat announced the attack in advance. Why? Israel had no better friends before, during and after 1967 - despite Adam's inaccurate statements. Only a paranoid, "everyone is my enemy" Likud mentality would believe that the Americans had turned anti-Israeli. Even in 1973, Americans were very pro-Israeli when the world was tiring of Israel's refusal to negotiate with Egypt, et al.

Even when no country would permit Israel arms shipped through their country - even then the US rebuilt the entire Israeli Air Force in the emergency resupply that dwarfed the Berlin airlift. Is that a country that was turning anti-Israeli? Of course not.

Adam thinks the US was anti-Israel when even US warships were fully involved in peripheral combat - in Israel's defense.

Adam also forgets Munich. He forgets history (which he was too young to remember). Adam lumps all others as his enemies. This is paranoia we call Likud. This is the paranoia that now makes Israel an international pariah. IOW, I now suspect, Adam is a "closet Likud".

Adam cannot even mention UN Resolution 242 - just like Likud. Not once does he even respond to posts on UN 242. He cannot even quote a post with UN242 - as if UN242 were Ebola. UN 242 **IS** a fundamental principal for Middle East peace - in the Oslo accords - to everyone except Likud. All but the "everyone is against us" Likud acknowledges the existance of UN 242. All but Adam.

Adam reports half truths - then accuses all other responsible news sources - from the Swiss to Japan - as being anti-Israeli. Paranoia just like Likud.

Adam not once acknowledges that Israeli dic head leader 1) repeatedly was insuborinate, 2) violated a cease fire bringing the world closer to nuclear war than the Cuban Missile Crisis, 3) setup the massacre of Palestinian women and children in Lebanon, 4) attacked another soveign nation in a surprise attack without even a declaration of war from his own government, 5) created the Lebanon morass while lying directly in the face of his Prime Minister, and 6) advocated the murder of Rabin. The murder of Rabin. Adam not once even dares to touch a single one of these accurate facts - because he is a "closet Likud"? The murder of Rabin.

Adam. Be a man. Acknowledge that Sharon advocated the murder of Rabin. Acknowledge the existance of UN Resolution 242. Be a man - not a fan of the dic head.

Likud - just another word for a racist, murdering, self righteous enemy of all human rights. Review previous posts. Not once does Adam ever separate himself from Likud. He even regards all others - even the US and UK - as enemies of Israel. Curious. Just like Ariel Sharon and Likud.

With Likud in power, Adam's enemies list has now grown to all other countries in the Middle East! That is paranoia. That is also Likud. That is what Adam is thinking? That is scary.

Originally posted by Dagnabit
I don't take sides on the Middle East much but the Palestinians are clearly the underdog. Look at the picture that started this thread.

I say again: look at the Middle East <b>as a whole.</b> See all that land? 99+% of it is Arab-controlled. See the little piece of land the size of New Jersey alongside the Medeterranean Sea and crammed in among Transjordan (the actual Palestinian state, if you take even a cursory glance at a history textbook), Egypt, Lebanon, and Syria? That's Israel- all of it. There ain't no more- they're not hiding some millions of square miles of desert containing billions of barrels of oil wealth.

Now, tell me again why the Palestininans, given that they are part of this huge and powerful people are an underdog. Because their own people are fucking them? That's the issue, when it comes right down to it- of all the millions of refugee people since WWII, one group has not been resettled in lands where their own people live- the Palestinian Arabs.
They want restitution for lost land and property? Sure... how 'bout the Arab nations pay the thousands of Jews who were living in Arab nations in 1949, and were expelled when Israel came into being. Right of return? Sure... have the Arab nations grant it to the Jews they kicked out.

Hell, for that matter, every single one of us should probably get on the phone <b>right now</b> and call up a Native American and invite them to move right into our home, since the entire US is built on land which was, in effect, taken from them with a brutality which makes Israel look like the very model of civility.

Again, glass houses and stones,
Z

Originally posted by adamzion
...
Now, tell me again why the Palestininans, given that they are part of this huge and powerful people are an underdog. Because their own people are fucking them? That's the issue, when it comes right down to it- of all the millions of refugee people since WWII, one group has not been resettled in lands where their own people live- the Palestinian Arabs.
They want restitution for lost land and property? Sure... how 'bout the Arab nations pay the thousands of Jews who were living in Arab nations in 1949, and were expelled when Israel came into being. Right of return? Sure... have the Arab nations grant it to the Jews they kicked out. ...

No doubt about it. If you kill an Liberian citizen, then you are attacking an American citizen - since Liberians are the same people; just as Iranians are Palestinians. The argument is silly and is part of the process to advocate racial hate. However lets take a different tact.

Adam, from your perspective, what do the Palestinians want? What should they have expected from the Oslo Accords and international agreements such as UN 242? What is it that they are not satisfied with in negotiations?

This time Radio Netherlands International chimes in with real world reports. (Add Netherlands to the list of anti Israeli countries because they report more than half truths.) In "Good Life", they visited Gaza strip where the farmer just had 2/3rd of his farmer destroyed only because two Israeli settlements (illegal settlements according to the UN) were located nearby. RNI made a rather disturbing suggestion. These crops and trees are not being chopped because of threats to road traffic. The idea is to make farmers financially destitude; just another program to force Palestinians off their land.

For example, it takes as much as 15 years to establish productive Olive trees. Israeli army is quick to attack olive trees especially on the more futile lands. They note the neighbor, an old lady whose entire strawberry farm was cut down - just sitting there almost comatose. Curiously, no shootings had ever been attempted from any of these farms.

BTW, notice that Jewish Israeli fields are never cleared? Terrorists could attack just as easily from Jewish fields as from Palestinian fields. But when the government is racist, only then does the field's owner make a difference. After all, a Jew would have to be compensated for his loss. Radio Netherlands International was quite explicit when they repeated - no Palestinian will be compensated for the losses incurred by the Israeli government. Ahh but some here will stay quiet rather than admit those Palestinian human rights are violated.

Once there was an honorable country called Israel. Then they elected a dic head. Now boys must stand up to Jewish SS tanks. Interesting and ironic how history repeats itself.

Originally posted by tw
Adam, from your perspective, what do the Palestinians want? What should they have expected from the Oslo Accords and international agreements such as UN 242? What is it that they are not satisfied with in negotiations?
[/B]

My perspective on what the PLO wants is irrelevant, since what I think about what they want makes no difference.

However, as I have said before, former Israeli PM Ehud Barak made an offer to Yassir Arafat which included virtually all of the Gaza Strip, 90+% of the West Bank, East Jerusalem, <b>and</b> PA control of the Temple Mount- the holiest single site in Judaism (as compared to its being the third holiest in Islam). Arafat turned this down.

Rewind to 1948-49. The original partition plan for the British colony of Palestine included three pieces: the independent country of Jordan (aka Transjordan- that part of Palestine which was east of the Jordan river), a Jewish state, and a Palestinian Arab one.

Here is a map of the original partition plan: http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/partmap.html

Immediately upon the partition agreement, Israel declared statehood. This was followed immediately by its being attacked by all of the surrounding Arab states. The Palestinians were encouraged by these Arab states to leave their homes in Palestine so as to not be in the way when the Arabs, in their minds inevitably, destroyed the Jewish state. History tells what happened next- not only did the Arab states not destroy Israel, but each time they launched a war against Israel they wound up with less land.

Fast forward to the '70s. Israeli PM Menachem Begin established the principle of land for peace when he agreed to return the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt in return for the first peace treaty it signed with an Arab state. Put this in context: has <b>any</b> European state returned land which it captured in a war unless it was lost in yet another war? Did the US return Florida, Cuba, or the Phillipines to Spain after capturing those territories? No. Israel did so, and was demonstrably willing to do so again in the case of the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and East Jerusalem.

In the case of East Jerusalem, Israel had agreed to sign over part of its <b>capital city</b>. Would England ever sign over control over part of London? Would the US ever sign over control of part of DC (except to drug dealers, natch)? I dare say no.

And Barak's offer included control of the Temple Mount- the single holiest place in the world to Jews. Would the Catholic Church ever cede control over Vatican City? Would Islam ever cede control over Mecca or Medina? Again, I dare say no.

But, clearly, the Israelis are being unreasonable here. All of these offers were <b>not</b> what Arafat wanted, because all would still include the state of Israel's continued existance. The PLO's track record and charter are crystal clear about one thing: the PLO's aim is to destroy the Jewish state. It's pretty tough to negotiate peace with someone whose sole aim is to see you disappear. And Israel isn't likely to negotiate itself out of existance, as inconvenient as this might be to the rest of the world.

We're still here, get over it,
Z

Originally posted by tw
Actually, I hoped that Adam would not worship the fucking scum bag, shit faced, cunt licking, anti everyone else extremist...
[/B]

Darn. You say "cunt-licking" like it's a bad thing. :-)

I know, I know...I still occasionally say "cock-sucker" as a oath too. I'll take one of each, please.

Sorry guys, I'm not diving into this one. I swung by to check on the action and it turns out here's where all the energy is going.

Same old Cellar...new and improved and faster than 2400 baud :-)

Originally posted by adamzion
[QUOTE]Originally posted by tw
Adam, from your perspective, what do the Palestinians want? What should they have expected from the Oslo Accords and international agreements such as UN 242? What is it that they are not satisfied with in negotiations?

My perspective on what the PLO wants is irrelevant, since what I think about what they want makes no difference.

However, as I have said before, former Israeli PM Ehud Barak made an offer to Yassir Arafat which included virtually all of the Gaza Strip, 90+% of the West Bank, East Jerusalem, <b>and</b> PA control of the Temple Mount- the holiest single site in Judaism (as compared to its being the third holiest in Islam). Arafat turned this down.
...[/QUOTE]

And, as you forgot to say before, Barak also refused to commit to any details. Again you forget that one critical sentence that defines on which side failure resides. As in all previous agreements, those details, without a firm commitment, will only be withdrawn later by Likud. Adam again forgets to tell the whole truth in a hope that others will believe a 'lying by half truth' story. {point 1}

A need to avoid is telling. I posted again UN Resolution 242. UN 242 is fundamental to the peace process. Adam will not discuss it ...Why? {point 2}

Anyone who can understand and appreciate the other's opinions knows that "what I think about what they want makes [every] difference." Only a racist extremist would not be able nor willing to discuss what the other side wants. {point 3}

Adam posted an interesting but totally irrelevant map of the 1947 partitioning followed by much irrelevant notes from history. IOW avoid the most relevant parts of history: Oslo Accords and UN Resolution 242. Adam, you cannot even admit what is required for peace. Again you forget to mention THE fundamental reason why the peace talks broke down? You conveniently blame Palestinians because Barak would not commit to any details. This is nonsense. You know it. So again you post a half truth to put all blame on the Palestinians. {again point 1}

Fool me once, shame on me; fool me twice - even the Palestinians are not that dumb. Just watching Ted Koppel's town meeting in Israel tells us that Israel has too many racists in political power - therefore all details rquire full committed up front. Likud previously reneged on previous uncommitted details. The only way to settle with a right wing Israeli government; a commitment to every detail in detail.

Adam, silence on key points suggest you are a closet Likud. Your statements that Iranians, Syrian, Jordanians, Saudis, Tunisians, Egyptians, etc are really Palestinians implies paranoia. Your refusal to correct or even deny such silly posts suggests a racist mentality. Saudis are not Palestinians to those without racial bias. Racists have the 'them all is our enemy' hatred. {point 4}

Adam never acknowledges nor discusses these facts. Likud racist extremists fear these facts because they demand a fair settlement with those Likud regards as dogs. A 'closet' Likud also will not discuss facts in this paragraph: {point 5}

Ariel Sharon is a insuborinate, mass murderer, the father of the Lebanon nightmare, has violated international cease fires almost bringing the world to nuclear war, has a long history of blatant insuborination, and advocated the murder of Rabin. UN Resolution 242 and the Oslo Accords are the fundamental principals to all Middle East peace settlements. Jewish settlements in the West Bank and Gaza are in direct violation of international law and should be removed as part of a peaceful settlement.

Will we ever see UN Resolution 242 discussed in any post from Adam? Israelis interested in peace have no problem discussing UN 242 that defines a fair and equitable settlement. Will Adam? Points 1 thru 5 demonstrates that Adam has an entrenched, "screw them all", attitude. He cannot see the other side's position, does not care to even try, considers every non-Jew as an enemy or persective enemy (as he does the US, UK, Swiss, Netherland, and Japanese press), and denies by silence the fundamental principals for peace. What I first thought was a moderate may indeed be racist Likud who finds peace only murder and stealing of other's property.

Originally posted by adamzion
However, as I have said before, former Israeli PM Ehud Barak made an offer to Yassir Arafat which included virtually all of the Gaza Strip, 90+% of the West Bank, East Jerusalem, <b>and</b> PA control of the Temple Mount- the holiest single site in Judaism (as compared to its being the third holiest in Islam). Arafat turned this down.

Adam, you've mentioned this before. Now, was this actually documented by a major news source, or by the Israeli government or the Palestinian Authority? Or, is this just the word around the campfire?

Rewind to 1948-49. The original partition plan for the British colony of Palestine included three pieces: the independent country of Jordan (aka Transjordan- that part of Palestine which was east of the Jordan river), a Jewish state, and a Palestinian Arab one.

I don't see the Sinai on there though...

Immediately upon the partition agreement, Israel declared statehood.

Actually, didn't Israel declare statehood on the day that Britain's mandate over Palestine expired? Was this partition agreement part of the 1947 UN Resolution?

Fast forward to the '70s. Israeli PM Menachem Begin established the principle of land for peace when he agreed to return the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt in return for the first peace treaty it signed with an Arab state. Put this in context: has <b>any</b> European state returned land which it captured in a war unless it was lost in yet another war? Did the US return Florida, Cuba, or the Phillipines to Spain after capturing those territories? No. Israel did so, and was demonstrably willing to do so again in the case of the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and East Jerusalem.

But the Sinai wasn't Israel's to begin with. Nor was Jerusalem (which was an international city) or the West Bank.

In the case of East Jerusalem, Israel had agreed to sign over part of its <b>capital city</b>.

See previous mention of Jerusalem...

The PLO's track record and charter are crystal clear about one thing: the PLO's aim is to destroy the Jewish state. It's pretty tough to negotiate peace with someone whose sole aim is to see you disappear. And Israel isn't likely to negotiate itself out of existance, as inconvenient as this might be to the rest of the world.

The PLO and other Arabs have markedly moved away from this stance during the 1990s, particularly since the Oslo accords. After all, Israel is now at peace with Jordan.

We're still here, get over it

Adam, I can respect the fact that you are proud of your Jewish heritage and your ancestors that have fought so valiantly for their own state. However, this last line you left is what makes it hard for both sides to get along. Arrogance. That, and the PLO talking about an end to a Jewish state. Arrogance on their end too. The Arabs are still here too though. It is obvious that the area of Palestine itself is very sacred to the Jews. However, given that others occupied it for 2000 years previous to the State of Israel, shouldn't it be obvious that the Arabs may have some serious attachment too? Considering it was ruled by the Ottomans for the previous 400 years...

Now shake hands and play nicely...

Still working on getting my casino or discount smoke shop,
Syc



[/B][/QUOTE]

[Edited by sycamore on 03-17-2001 at 03:00 PM]

Originally posted by sycamore
[QUOTE]Originally posted by adamzion
[B]However, as I have said before, former Israeli PM Ehud Barak made an offer to Yassir Arafat which included virtually all of the Gaza Strip, 90+% of the West Bank, East Jerusalem, <b>and</b> PA control of the Temple Mount- the holiest single site in Judaism (as compared to its being the third holiest in Islam). Arafat turned this down.

Adam, you've mentioned this before. Now, was this actually documented by a major news source, or by the Israeli government or the Palestinian Authority? Or, is this just the word around the campfire?

Not word around the campfire. Hold on...

OK, a quick search turned out the following quote from an article in the <u>New Republic</u> by David Feith dated 9/5/2000:

At Camp David last month, Arafat showed how costly a "final settlement" agreement would be. It is hard to overstate how extraordinary the concessions Barak offered were. According to the most credible reports, they included approximately 90 percent of the West Bank, recognition of a new sovereign Palestinian state therein, the absorption into Israel of 100,000 Palestinian refugees, the abandonment of various Jewish settlements, and, most astonishingly, the division of Jerusalem, with the Palestinians to have sovereignty over the Arab neighborhoods outside the Old City walls and more limited "control" over Muslim and Christian sections of the Old City--including the Temple Mount."

Rewind to 1948-49. The original partition plan for the British colony of Palestine included three pieces: the independent country of Jordan (aka Transjordan- that part of Palestine which was east of the Jordan river), a Jewish state, and a Palestinian Arab one.

I don't see the Sinai on there though...

True enough. The Sinai was captured from Egypt in a war, and returned to Egypt in the peace treaty of '77 (I believe) signed by then Israeli PM Menachem Begin and Egyptian President Anwar Sadat.

Immediately upon the partition agreement, Israel declared statehood.

Actually, didn't Israel declare statehood on the day that Britain's mandate over Palestine expired? Was this partition agreement part of the 1947 UN Resolution?

So I believe.

But the Sinai wasn't Israel's to begin with. Nor was Jerusalem (which was an international city) or the West Bank.

Again, agreed. Israel captured all of the above territory after defeating surrounding Arab nations in wars, most of which were initiated by the Arab nations (one began with an Israeli pre-emptive strike on Egyptian forces which were massing for their own attack).

In the case of East Jerusalem, Israel had agreed to sign over part of its <b>capital city</b>.

See previous mention of Jerusalem...

Jerusalem, however, has been the Jewish capital city for millennia. Think about that. <b>Millennia</b>. That's a long time. Was it under Arab rule for most of the time since 70 AD (and the fall of the Second Temple)? Yes. But were there any attempts to make it an Arab capital in all that time? Not one, until now.

Meanwhile, Jerusalem has been present in every Jewish religious service for, again, millennia. Is this "fair" to the Arabs who lived in Jerusalem prior to the declaration of the Jewish state? No, probably not, and I'm sorry about that. But, again, neither was it fair for the surrounding Arab states to drive out their hundreds of thousands of Jewish citizens following the declaration of Israeli statehood.

The PLO's track record and charter are crystal clear about one thing: the PLO's aim is to destroy the Jewish state. It's pretty tough to negotiate peace with someone whose sole aim is to see you disappear. And Israel isn't likely to negotiate itself out of existance, as inconvenient as this might be to the rest of the world.

The PLO and other Arabs have markedly moved away from this stance during the 1990s, particularly since the Oslo accords. After all, Israel is now at peace with Jordan.

True enough, Israel is at peace with Jordan. But the PLO charter <b>still</b> calls for the destruction of Israel. PA textbooks show a map of Israel, described in its entirity as Palestine, and call for the destruction of the Jewish state. And don't try to convince me that Syria or Iran suddenly want to be all buddy-buddy with Israel.

There's plenty of blame to go around here, fellows. As I said before: everyone seems to be desperate to find the simple, easy-to-understand, <b>wrong</b> answer to this complicated problem.

Sigh,
Z

MaggieL

Darn. You say "cunt-licking" like it's a bad thing. :-)

At this point, I think the gentleman was simply looking for a random body part random verbing construction. He would have accepted foot demoralizing if it had come to his head, though if he did come up with that, we'd be forced, by law, to send him by for further testing.