Women and Self Esteem
Do all women have a problem with low self esteem? I know there is a fairly bad problem with women and their idea of the ideal appearance thanks to the media and advertising, but in recent years I've noticed a really disturbing trend in nearly all the girls I've dated or known as friends: it is very rare to come across one who hasn't been in some sort of abusive relationship. Even if they seem perfectly normal at first, eventually a past experience comes to the surface and you get to hear all about it. If they haven't had a boyfriend that beat them up in the past, they had an abusive father and if they didn't have an abusive father, they never knew their father because he left long before they ever got to know him. These childhood/teenage experiences usually result in a poor-spirited adult who can't seem to make good decisions or stand up for themselves. Its not only sad to see a person have to live with all of those mental burdens, its really frustrating in a relationship. In fact, it is usually what destroys it. I'm not a counsellor.
At first I just thought it was horrible luck on my part, but then I started asking my friends and they seem to indicate the same thing: a very high percentage of the girls they've known or dated were "broken" and had horribly low self esteem usually brought on by a past abusive relationship or bad family life.
Where all the normal women at?
I'm married to a normal one.
Don't know how common they are.
Maybe you are attracted subconsiously to the broken ones? Don't mean that as an insult. Just throwing it out there as a possibility.
Originally posted by Kitsune
Where all the normal women at?
We try to get them off the market immediately. You do realize that you can help your womans self-esteem. Challenge her to do the things she is unsure of but you know she can do...
Maybe you are attracted subconsiously to the broken ones?
No insult taken -- I've considered this. I've listened to enough of Love Lines in my time to know that that is often how it works. :)
If that is the case, I have to break out of it. I know I can't take it, anymore. I have, in fact, dated non-broken girls and those relationships usually ended because they had a habit I couldn't stand and they refused to give up or lighten up (mostly smoking).
I can't tolerate that smell, much less a kiss from one. Eech.
I agree on the smoking. But for me, I never started anything with a smoker. They were not even in the running. Better for them and for me.
Wait wait wait. You dumped otherwise perfectly normal girls because they smoked? Hey, that's cool if you can't tolerate it, but for pity's sake, send em my way!
You dumped otherwise perfectly normal girls because they smoked? Hey, that's cool if you can't tolerate it, but for pity's sake, send em my way!
You can have 'em. It is now my policy to not even consider dating a girl that smokes. It takes an incredible amount of willpower to tolerate being around someone who does if you aren't used to it.
That smell that permeates their clothing, hair, and skin... That taste on their lips... if you didn't grow up with someone that smokes or don't smoke yourself, it is enough to make you sick.
:vomit:
Oh I know. My first serious girlfriend was a smoker, back before I smoked, so I remember what it was like. Actually, I'm trying to quit smoking (again) so I probably want to stay away form the smokers myself. But I personally would gladly take a smoker who can accept a compliment graciously over a nonsmoker who refused to believe any nice thing I said to her.
I have noticed that people that end up together "fit" together - fit in the dovetail sense - they have complimentary qualities. So, in this example, people with low-self esteem (be they male or female) end up with people who they don't think will injure them there (in their sensitive spot) - people that they feel "safe" around - people who make them feel good about themselves.
I mean, if you had some kind of vulnerability (an eye in the middle of your forehead) and had suffered as a consequence (strangers and people you cared about made fun of it) wouldn't you be attracted to someone who was perfectly fine with it or, better yet, thought it was endearing or even sexy? I think that is the longest sentence I have ever typed. Anyway, see what I am saying?
I'm guessing that there is something about the way you treat women like that that makes them like you which, in turn makes them attractive to you. The only problem with this is that if you ever do "fix" the person - restore their self-esteem - then what brought you together in the first place (the glue) is gone and the relationship sours - usually not because you like the person less but because they like you less. Funny how that works but I've seen it many times.
Originally posted by Beestie
The only problem with this is that if you ever do "fix" the person - restore their self-esteem - then what brought you together in the first place (the glue) is gone and the relationship sours - usually not because you like the person less but because they like you less. Funny how that works but I've seen it many times.
Yeah, I've seen that too.
So, in this example, people with low-self esteem (be they male or female) end up with people who they don't think will injure them
So what is with all the battered women who always end up in abusive relationships and seem to need it? The "oh he beats me up now and then but he still loves me" kind? Those people are way, way too far gone.
Originally posted by Kitsune So what is with all the battered women who always end up in abusive relationships and seem to need it? The "oh he beats me up now and then but he still loves me" kind? Those people are way, way too far gone.
That's a good question and I'm not really expert enough to say. My opionion is that women (and men) who stay in abusive relationships do so because the abuse is inextricably intertwined with the emotion of love as a result of how they were treated as children and that any love offered to these people that is not accompanied by abuse seems shallow and unsatisfying.
Imagine a rope with 100 strands. 35 of the strands are abuse but to the abused, the entire rope - each and every strand is love or some aspect of love. The outsider sees the 35 abuse strands and rejects the entire rope out of hand. The abused will always choose the "stronger" love - the 100 strand rope. The only difference they see is the relative strength of the two ropes. A bizzare example but hopefully it makes it clearer.
Children learn love from how their parents treat them. Their understanding of love becomes ingrained so deeply that they are not even aware, when they grow older, what its constitution is. When children are abused, the abuse and love, in the mind of the child, become one. Later in life, when a grown up abused child encounters a relationship that has the same character as their relationship with the abusive parent (abuse/outpouring of affection/abuse/affection/etc.) they are almost certain, other details excepted and the timing is right, to fall in love.
My guess is that if we could all look inside ourselves and look at the substance of love - what's in our mind - what its made of and where it came from - that a lot of us would be shocked and some of us would be terrified. I think our mind realizes this and takes extraordinary measures to protect us from that information. And I think this is why a lot of what passes for love in this world makes no sense at all.
[SIZE=1][edited - rope example added - no other changes][/SIZE]
Don't forget that abuse, short of physical, is in the eye of the beholder. I've met people who claimed to have been psychologically abused, only to determine from the stories they told, that they felt abused because their significant other refused to bow to outrageous demands.
Refusing to paint the exterior of the house shocking pink, is not abuse.;)
You do realize that you can help your womans self-esteem. Challenge her to do the things she is unsure of but you know she can do...
...for example, she's perfectly capable of leaving your sorry ass and finding someone *better*!
[SIZE=1]but maybe my experience is unusual[/size]
Absolutely not , UT. Actually more common than uncommon.:thumb:
Reminds me of a bit of Star Trek Wisdom ...
Having is not so fine a thing as wanting.
Consider the possibility of the females divorcing in haste and repenting in leisure ... and the smug satisfaction that you may gather by saying "no, I don't need you back."
Originally posted by wolf
Consider the possibility of the females divorcing in haste and repenting in leisure ... and the smug satisfaction that you may gather by saying "no, I don't need you back."
Hell no, they're off tormenting some other poor schmuck.:p
Originally posted by Kitsune
quote:So what is with all the battered women who always end up in abusive relationships and seem to need it? The "oh he beats me up now and then but he still loves me" kind? Those people are way, way too far gone.
Originally posted by Beestie
quote:That's a good question and I'm not really expert enough to say. My opionion is that women (and men) who stay in abusive relationships do so because the abuse is inextricably intertwined with the emotion of love...
Ok, I'm going to put my two cents in. First, understand that I'm not looking for sympathy or whatever, just illustrating my own opinion.
The very first relationship I was in (long-term) was abusive. This guy was psycho, literally, and I found out later that he tried to kill his ex-wife by stomping on her. Anyway, these guys don't start OUT abusive. They start out charming, and the abuse is gradual; a little here, a little more there, until you're not only completely isolated from anyone who can help, but you're so terrified that you're walking on eggshells all the time. When someone tells you that if you leave, they'll find you and kill you, you're at the point where you believe them, especially if you've gone to the cops (as I did) twice, and nothing was done. This guy put me in the hospital twice before I could get away from him for good. He had me followed and everything.
There are various reasons why women don't leave abusive relationships. For some, it IS because they "love" they guy; for others, it's because they aren't allowed to have jobs, so they have no money; maybe they aren't allowed access to the car; maybe they have kids and they're frightened for them; and maybe, like me, they're trying to figure out a way to escape without getting killed. Statistics show that most women who get killed by abusive men get killed AFTER they leave.
Anyway, while I agree with Beestie that some women, because of their early lives, have intertwined abuse and love, that isn't always the case.
AND, before I met this guy, I had great self-esteem. Afterwards, I think I blocked most of it out--the emotions, anyway, because while I can remember what happened, there are absolutely NO emotions associated with it, except a vague hatred of him. I don't have a fear of men, or anything like that. It seems as if, aside from the vague hatred, It really didn't affect me in any other way except that I can spot those bastards a mile away.
Sidhe
I think Beestie made a very nice analysis of the problem. As small children we learn what it means to be loved from our parents. Our parents are flawed human being themselves, and unfortunately, some parents are out-right physically or emotionally abusive. As adults we may intellectually realize that some of the things that happened in our childhood were not the best, but when we meet somebody who embodies these traits, we are drawn like a moth to the flame. It "feels like love" because that is what has become imprinted in our emotional templates, and it can be very hard to overcome.
Picking abusive, inappropriate partners is not just something women do either. A couple of nights ago I had a long talk with a male friend of mine who is 14 years younger than me. I have known this guy for quite a while now and I've watched him go from one awful relationship to the next. One woman he fell madly in love with had an extreme problem with anger, another was a narcissist who couldn't love anybody, including herself. A third was a pathological liar who made my every instinctual alarm bell go off the moment I met her. He thought she was wonderful until sad experience proved him wrong. "What am I going to do?" he asked me. I want a woman I can love and who will be my closest friend. I'd like to have a son of my own. Every relationship I've ever had has blown up in my face. I think I'm a decent person, so why does this keep happening to me?"
I told him that I thought his "radar" was broken. He actually flinched when I said that and said sadly, "You know, I think you're right." This man came from a terrible childhood. His mother died when he was three and he grew up going back and forth between foster homes and the home of his drunken father and abusive grandfather.
There are too many tragic stories like his among men and women both.
While my self esteem wasn't "horrible", it pretty much kept me from dating until I met Sycamore. (and yes, I just put myself out there). I knew that I couldn't possibly be in a relationship while my esteem was where it was, so I chose to not date or get tangled up in any sort of relationship until I could "get right" with myself. I figured that it wasn't worth the potential heartache and I had seen plenty of my female friends going through bad situations because of their self esteem issues. Quite honestly, I wanted to get it right the first time. ;)
So in short, we're all fuckups who wouldn't know a good thing if she asked us to dinner? Wonderful. Looks like potential for two clubs here.
And I think that's how it *should* be done, and why I haven't bothered to seek a relationship right now. I'm not sure I can even be true to myself right now, let alone a romantic interest. As painful as it can be, being alone is, at least in my case, very therapeutic. I look forward to being ready to date again, but I want to make sure I'm doing it because I know I can succeed in it, not because I just want it.
Edit: fixed another damned spelling error Jag inadvertently pointed out. :)
As painful as it can be, being alone is, at least in my case, very threapeutic.
Damn straight.
In America, all girls wrestle with their worth being charted by their looks. Just as boys are charted by their strength/ athletic prowess. Some get over it, some dont. Some will make amazing concessions. Another part of this is somehow tangled up with dominance and women as prey.
Originally posted by jaguar
So in short, we're all fuckups who wouldn't know a good thing if she asked us to dinner? Wonderful. Looks like potential for two clubs here.
Not at all, Jag. Its a continium of sorts or like a graph with the shape of that dreaded bell curve that every college student knows. On one end of the spectrum are people raised in a healthy environment by two very healthy, highly functional parents (alas, a relative minority). On the opposite end are people who were raised in highly abusive situations, often with one or even both parents absent. These people are also in the minority (although its numbers seem to be growing, unfortunately). The rest of us fall somewhere in the middle, raised by parents who made some mistakes, but did the best they could under whatever the circumstances were. This constitutes the majority of both sexes. We may have our difficulties, but with patience and perserverance we can work through them. There is no reason to have two clubs unless you want to create them.;)
The second club was for UT and the 'left for someone better' association over there =)
Not sure exactly where I'd sit on the bell curve but put it this way, I think i'll stick to two mutually exclusive catagories, good friends and one night stands.
This conversation spilled over into the office and I'll be damned if I didn't paint myself into a corner by not thinking before I spoke.
"So many girls I know lack so much self esteem. I want a girl that thinks good of herself! One that will stand up for herself! One with balls!"
"Uh, I think that'd make them a guy."
Dammit.
Not at all Kit, girls can have balls, testes will make them male.:)
Originally posted by jaguar
The second club was for UT and the 'left for someone better' association over there =)
That would be the GAG or grass is always greener club.:)
Not left for someone better actually... just given enough self-esteem to be able to deal with life without me or, really, anyone else specific around and --
Aw hell it gets complicated
[size=1]and let's just say "not left for someone better" since obviously there is no-one better[/size]
Originally posted by Undertoad
Not left for someone better actually... just given enough self-esteem to be able to deal with life without me or, really, anyone else specific around and --
Aw hell it gets complicated
[size=1]and let's just say "not left for someone better" since obviously there is no-one better[/size]
Happens to me all the time. I've begun to recognize this as my personal life-track. I've done it so often I expect it now ....
my girlfriend has some low self-esteem sometimes, but who's ( gotta be ) perfect? I like her the way she is, but she doesnt sometimes....She would never think about babys cause she thought she wouldnt be a good mother, she also smokes, not much , and hardly when im with her, i dont mind...after we taken a shower and brushed well, all is gone! And i got the best cure to make her stop now that she would like a child....hahaha
[COLOR=indigo]Well, I have low self esteem, but I don't think it has an adverse effect on my marriage. I mean, it's all about my looks and not about my abilities. I think the extent to which the low self esteem is pervading the individual is more telling than whether it's there or not.
Did that make sense? (I'm at first day back to work after vacation, and my brain is fuzzy....)[/COLOR]
i think there are just as many who are concerned about their look as there are about their abilities....but if yr man s a good man, he wont mind! Its most off the times more important for a girl than for her man i think! I always tell her and myself there is nothing to complain about, there are people that arnt aible to do anything ....thats much wurse...i got only one life, try to enjoy urself and dont care what people say or think....but thats just me!
I agree with Beestie on the formative-child-love thing. I also think love is not half as magical as we'd like to think. A lot of women's insecurity is related to men (however much we may protest that it's not) and a dissilusionment with an image of love that will never match up to reality. Thus those women who's lives/relationships are in conflict with their ideals (i.e. every woman) will experience some kind of insecurity/low self-esteem.
Relationships? Pah.
for some people its the best there is, some relativate it and it aint that much, if u talk to people that " found" eachother during the worldwar , they will speak about love differently.... People arent made to be alone, but are they made to be with someone all the time? Who will tell for sure? Like i said before, i think its al devided, there will be many different reasons for that low or high self-esteem, but thats why all individuals are uniek! U can try fix a foodproblem, but somewhere someone will still be hungry...as a matter of speach offcourse! Self esteem is like confidence...u need to feel good, and if someone has the opposite effect on someone and makes him/her feel bad, it wasnt meant to be! I told myself always , "there are millions a people, somewhere love is around..just be patient..." And now after about 10 years i found it right next to me...she lives in my town and her birthday is on the same day as mine..what about that coincidence?
I don't think we're like swans. Else why all the affairs, divorces? I'd like to think there is someone for everyone but I just can't see it. We are individuals, not pairs. Love is just the ultimate antidote to insecurity.
Originally posted by Catwoman
I don't think we're like swans. Else why all the affairs, divorces? I'd like to think there is someone for everyone but I just can't see it. We are individuals, not pairs. Love is just the ultimate antidote to insecurity.
Hrm...that last sentence would make a great signature line. ;)
But seriously, just taking my personal example, I was alone and somewhat insecure for a long time before I met Sycamore (because as I stated in an earlier post, I didn't want to fall into any type of relationship with anybody until *I* felt the time was right and that *I* was right with myself). I could have fallen into all kinds of situtations based on my insecurity with myself, but I refused to do so. I knew that it would lead to nothing but drama, and that's the last thing I needed on top of everything else that I had to deal with (nothing major, just everyday bullshit).
Basically, "I can do bad all by myself". (which is actually a name of a play! LOL). But it's so true.
And I also believe that there is someone for everyone. You may not find that "someone" right away, or hell, maybe even never, but they are out there. :)
Originally posted by Catwoman
[snip] ... Love is just the ultimate antidote to insecurity.
Nope. I don't think so. Many people
think that's what love is, but the ultimate antidote to insecurity is self-esteem.
Good call Limey. I think, wait, know I would rather be with a girl who is happy with who she is than someone who needs constant validation. Which I why I'm doomed to a life of singledom. :p
Thanks Lady Syc I took your advice...! I'm glad you have found your someone though... I'm sure you'll have very happy lives together. :)
Originally posted by perth
Good call Limey. I think, wait, know I would rather be with a girl who is happy with who she is than someone who needs constant validation. Which I why I'm doomed to a life of singledom. :p
Doomed? Singledom beats the snot out of being with someone who doesn't have a handle on their insecurities. You should thank your lucky stars. And now that all your Cellar buds are looking out for you, your next gf will have to pass muster with us first. No serious dating until she signs up for an account here and gets a passing mark. And we're a tough crowd so don't be bringing any shrinkin' violets in here :)
which brings up an interesting question in itself. Have you ever been tested by someone only to find out later? How did you feel? Ever tested someone? How? Why? Did you tell them?
Originally posted by jaguar
which brings up an interesting question in itself. Have you ever been tested by someone only to find out later? How did you feel? Ever tested someone? How? Why? Did you tell them?
Substance for a new thread, no? :cool:
Originally posted by Beestie
Doomed? Singledom beats the snot out of being with someone who doesn't have a handle on their insecurities. You should thank your lucky stars. And now that all your Cellar buds are looking out for you, your next gf will have to pass muster with us first. No serious dating until she signs up for an account here and gets a passing mark. And we're a tough crowd so don't be bringing any shrinkin' violets in here :)
That's a hell of a good idea, Beestie. When the time comes, I'll start looking for someone who can go rounds with the likes you guys. :)
Takes two, let's put the shoe on the other foot ...men are just as liable to succumb to self-esteem issues; especially in these times, when the face of society constantly changes by renegotiation of values. Manhood is constantly grappling with it's identity, function or even relevance. The problem lies not in this of itself - that is maybe how we grow, but in that it spills over to basic interraction with the opposite sex.
I'm trying to figure out women as much as the next guy. But I've seen the transforming effect of an insecure male partner on perfectly 'sound' females. The resulting ripple effect can only make sense if you see the stone that caused it.
You hit the nail on the head with the extent, OnyxCougar.
mmm good point there.
That's a hell of a good idea, Beestie. When the time comes, I'll start looking for someone who can go rounds with the likes you guys.
You sure you want to be dating someone like that? ;)
Newbie here.
I'm normal. Never been in an abusive relationship. Dad didn't beat me up. Dad and Mom have been married since 1965 and are still going strong so no absenteeism.
I don't smoke or drink heavily or do drugs.
You may find that a lot of girls pretend to have low self esteem so that you will compliment them more often. I've seen that game a lot.
I was lucky enough that in all of my long term relationships (3), I had guys that told me I was beautiful on a daily basis. Self esteem hasn't ever really been an issue in my adult life.
I was however a very fat teenager and had some issues then.
I'm normal. Never been in an abusive relationship. Dad didn't beat me up. Dad and Mom have been married since 1965 and are still going strong so no absenteeism.
I don't smoke or drink heavily or do drugs.
Well you're just not going to fit in very well are you ;)
Welcome to the Cellar, TG.:) Pay no attention to Jag, he's just jealous of normal people. You'll make a handy benchmark for comparing,....Oh,...Cincy,....nevermind.:haha:
Originally posted by TG
Newbie here.
I'm normal. Never been in an abusive relationship. Dad didn't beat me up. Dad and Mom have been married since 1965 and are still going strong so no absenteeism.
I don't smoke or drink heavily or do drugs.
You may find that a lot of girls pretend to have low self esteem so that you will compliment them more often. I've seen that game a lot.
I was lucky enough that in all of my long term relationships (3), I had guys that told me I was beautiful on a daily basis. Self esteem hasn't ever really been an issue in my adult life.
I was however a very fat teenager and had some issues then.
Man, you had a boring life.
It wasn't until I joined the service that I found out that not everyones father beat the shit out of them on an almost daily basis. My old man used to beat me until I'd piss blood, and then beat me for pissing blood. Growing up, I thought that was normal. At least he stopped his shit when I choked his ass out in the kitchen. That afternoon, I had two choices: gut him like a deer, or leave. To this day, he stays outside arms reach of me. (How depressing can one guy get?)
And good for you, to find relationships that you feel good in. If only everyone could find one. I'm happily married over 10 years, but some of my friends had relationships that couldn't outlast milk.
I hope that your current one keeps you happy.
Pay no attention to Jag, he's just jealous of normal people.
I'm going to go slash my wrists horizontally listen to limp bizkit and write some angsty poetry now.
Nobody
understands me.
I'm way too good at this.
You know, jag, if you then start a grunge-rock band, you'll have it made. MTV will come a-calling.
I really would rather slash my wrists than have 15 minutes on mtv.
Unless it was just hijacking the station for 15 minutes, that'd be damn good fun.
Maybe then you could play some videos on that pitiful station. I was under ther assumption that MTV meant music television, not the crap they have on there now.
I'd say just static would be a good diea but it'd be like if someone killed LiveJournal - you'd have to organize the mass graves across the country.