Is there free will in heaven?
It seems to me that for heaven to be perfectly peaceful, some restrictions on free will would be necessary. But that seems to diminish the attractiveness of heaven. And if it is possible to have free will and peace in heaven, then why would it not work on Earth?
there is no heaven....not like that, anyway.
then why would it not work on Earth?
Because the "Earth" you speak of is actually hell.
Originally posted by Happy Monkey
It seems to me that for heaven to be perfectly peaceful, some restrictions on free will would be necessary. But that seems to diminish the attractiveness of heaven. And if it is possible to have free will and peace in heaven, then why would it not work on Earth?
So maybe we all have our own personal heavens and while what I do in my personal heaven may appear (to me) to impinge on your freedoms, it doesn't actually impact on your heaven at all? Not that I think there
is a heaven (or heavens):3eye:
Our actions are the constructs of belief/desire sets. We desire something, we believe that something will fulfill that desire, we believe that our actions will obtain that something, we act.
We desire personal security. We believe that money will provide that. We believe that working hard will earn us money. We work hard.
The problem is that we suffer from broken belief/desire sets. We desire things that are harmful to ourselves or others, and we have ill-conceived beliefs about how to gain those things.
We desire to be valued by another. We believe that a relationship provides that. We believe that being passive and codependent is the best way to maintain that relationship. We act in ways that are codependent.
We desire to not be threatened by anyone. We believe that the only way to achieve this is through holding more power than anyone else. We believe that by manipulation and deception we can gain more power than anyone else. We manipulate and deceive.
We act with free will, but we do so along lines of faulty desires and faulty beliefs. Perhaps in heaven, community exists in such a way that we still operate with free will, but we do so without desiring harmful things, and without holding corrupted beliefs about how to achieve them.
We desire personal security. We believe that mutual respect is the best way to achieve this. We believe that humility and compassion are the best ways to achieve mutual respect. We act with humility and compassion.
Sounds good to me. I’m in. Who’s with me?
-sm
Then why wouldn't God fix our belief/desire sets here, and decrease the suffering?
in my humble opinion, the idea of heaven that most of us are familiar with (regardless of one's belief/disbelief) came from a religious society that had little at all to do with free will. if you believed/did everything the church said that you should you would go to heaven, otherwise hell awaits. thankfully most modern religion has moved from this ideology, but i think it's still valid in terms of examing the progression of the heaven concept. just a side thought on my part.
perhaps there is no need for a heaven in the sense that i am familiar with, i.e. some kind of utopian afterlife. aristotle believed that a just man delights in acting justly (loosely paraphrased, i think i got the idea across). maybe heaven is exercising free will and choosing good for the sake of good, as opposed to choosing good for some reward (in this life or the afterlife) or being otherwised coerced. just my 2 pesos...
Originally posted by Happy Monkey
Then why wouldn't God fix our belief/desire sets here, and decrease the suffering?
Who says he doesn't :confused:
If you're talking about a mass overhaul of the human race, maybe God isn't into tinkering with people's inner workings without permission. If you're talking about an individual basis, that seems to be the most basic tenet of every world religion - that you become transformed by the working of God and begin to act in accordance with proper b/d sets (in so many words).
-sm
As God gave us free will, maybe God is telling each and every one of us how to do it, it is just up to us to implement the ideas. The question is, are we listening to what God has to say?
Originally posted by smoothmoniker
If you're talking about a mass overhaul of the human race, maybe God isn't into tinkering with people's inner workings without permission.
So to get into heaven, you would need to give permission for Him to alter your desires? And if you choose to keep your free will, you would be denied heaven?
And if we are listening, how do we know it's God talking?
Happy Monkey, you said that a lack of free will would diminish the "attractiveness" of Heaven. So what? If you're going to do the whole heaven/hell concept, it's not like you're going to the mall and you get to decide which restaurant to get dinner from at the food court. Isn't the lack of eternal damnation attractive enough? Presumably, for those who are in heaven, their wills and the will of God would coincide--can you imagine being in heaven and wanting to do something God didn't want you to do? Would that lead to separation between you & God, aka Hell?
And in a semi-Socratic vein...
If God, in his infinite capacity, makes Heaven so damn spiffy that there is a complete and overwhelming desire to stay there, wouldn't that, in a sense, abrogate the very free will that is in question?
Originally posted by SteveDallas
Happy Monkey, you said that a lack of free will would diminish the "attractiveness" of Heaven. So what?
Well, obviously the Christian heaven is better than the Christian hell. But I find that it seems to be a choice between creepy and painful, rather than bliss and torment.
Heaven is wonderful....just don't step on the ducks.:)
Originally posted by Troubleshooter
And in a semi-Socratic vein...
If God, in his infinite capacity, makes Heaven so damn
nice
spiffy that there is a complete and overwhelming desire to stay there, wouldn't that, in a sense, abrogate the very free will that is in question?
Only if you think free-will is purely deterministic. In other words, if you think a free-will decision is solely based on the circumstances that the person finds himself in. Given X set of circumstances [capacity for reason, personal history, present surroundings, everything], every person will make the same decision.
I don't limit free-will that way. A person is still a free agent, able to make decisions that are not solely determined by their circumstances. So, just because you make a place that is so wonderful that every person would likely want to stay forever, you haven't vacated their capacity to actually make that decision.
Put bread in front of an ordinary starving man, and he will eat it. But he still decides to do so. He is still the agent of his own free-will.
-sm
Originally posted by Happy Monkey
Well, obviously the Christian heaven is better than the Christian hell. But I find that it seems to be a choice between creepy and painful, rather than bliss and torment.
Are you Christian? Or not?
If you are, why does the idea of eternity in perfect communion with a perfect God sound creepy?
If you aren't, why do you care?
(I'm assuming, of course, that we're discussing Heaven in terms of philosophical/theological aspects... not in the sense of "In Heaven you get to sleep till noon, hang out at a Maxim photo shoot in the afternoon, and party with the models at night." But maybe I'm wrong!)
I'm not. But a lot of people are, which is why I find it interesting.
I have a few problems with the concept of heaven and hell. First is the implied lack of free will. Second is the feeling of selfishness I get. A person in heaven is very likely to have known and loved at least one person who ended up in hell. How could the person in heaven be happy while that is true? Do you just stop caring? Do you become self-righteous, and agree that they deserve it? It is things like that that creep me out.
I'm gonna guess that, no, there will be no free will in Christian Heaven, because there isn't any on Earth according to their tenets, so why would it be any different up there?
Yeah, yeah...I know...we have the free will to choose Jesus or reject him, but I have a hard time viewing two choices to constitute free will.
There better be plenty of Guinness on tap up there...that's all I have to say.
Isn't there a lot of "praising the Lord" and Halleluahing and such going on up in the fluffy cloud, harps music, cherubs flyin around your head Heaven? Do you think that everyone up in heaven wants to do that all day? doesn;t sound like free will to me.
The idea of "christian Heaven" as portrayed on tv, Sunday School, and in some really freaky little hands out flyers I've seen, with the pearly gates, and the meeting god and the angels is preposterous. I am genuinely surprised when I run into a grown adult who appears to believe that if you live a good life, you will be judged by "the maker" and rewarded with eternal bliss. how stupid do you have to be? how eager to believe?
First of all, bliss is a comparative state. If you were perpetually blissed, you wouldn;t be able to tell, would you? nothing bad to compare it to. Second, how egocentric of us to think that 1 God can know all individuals well enough to sentence them to eternal bliss or damnation. If there is a single sentient god ( a possibility that I find unlikey, but cannot rule out) what makes us think that he gives a rats ass about a aingle person? Do they invision a staff of angles that work for him/her? pah! really. This longing for immortality in heaven is naught but a philosophical manifestation of a genetically installed drive. We are wired to perpetuate ourselves thru reproduction. The individuals that weren't have died out, are dying out, will die out. So our overacheiving brains decide that if our body is to reproduce and live on in our children, then our minds, which we somehow concieive of as being seperate from our bodies, must also live on, but in a really trippy far out kind of way. in heaven:).....or in helll :( horseshit! Immortality is in your pants!
Personally, I find soul recycling much easier to swallow.
[SIZE=1]edited to ad: immortality is in your pants. [/SIZE]
Originally posted by lumberjim
Isn't there a lot of "praising the Lord" and Halleluahing and such going on up in the fluffy cloud, harps music, cherubs flyin around your head Heaven? Do you think that everyone up in heaven wants to do that all day? doesn;t sound like free will to me
The idea of "christian Heaven" as portrayed on tv, Sunday School, and in some really freaky little hands out flyers I've seen, with the pearly gates, and the meeting god and the angels is preposterous. I am genuinely surprised when I run into a grown adult who appears to believe that if you live a good life, you will be judged by "the maker" and rewarded with eternal bliss. how stupid do you have to be? how eager to believe?.
[color=indigo]
Maybe. The bible says that there are angels in heaven, and you get to hang out with god and jesus, but it doesn't get real specific, AFAIK. Those who would research, please post refs.
Why is it so hard to believe that if you are a good person, you get a reward at the end? Every major religion/belief system has a "goodie" if you follow the tenets. Nirvana, reincarnation to the next highest form, heaven, Valhalla, hanging out with Allah, whatever. That in mind, how can you say that the 98% of people on this earth that believe something good comes to those who follow the beliefs of their system are stupid? That's an awfully big brush to paint with, Jimbo.
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First of all, bliss is a comparative state. If you were perpetually blissed, you wouldn;t be able to tell, would you? nothing bad to compare it to.
[color=indigo]Of course there is. You compare it to what it was like before you reached this (evolved or reward) state. It is better. If you lived through suffering and pain, and now are pain free, that's better. It can be considered blissful. [/color]
Second, how egocentric of us to think that 1 God can know all individuals well enough to sentence them to eternal bliss or damnation. If there is a single sentient god ( a possibility that I find unlikey, but cannot rule out) what makes us think that he gives a rats ass about a aingle person? Do they invision a staff of angles that work for him/her? pah! really.
[color=indigo]==back to Christian tenets now==
The bible tells us that God knows us from the moment we are conceived, that he DOES know each and every one of us, that he has a plan for each and every one of us, and that he wants to be a part of each and every one of our lives. Can you conceive of infinite numbers? Think of counting to infinity. God is infinite just in that way. He has always been and always will be. Why are you putting human limitations on God? He is above that. That is why he is God.[/color]
This longing for immortality in heaven is naught but a philosophical manifestation of a genetically installed drive. We are wired to perpetuate ourselves thru reproduction. The individuals that weren't have died out, are dying out, will die out. So our overacheiving brains decide that if our body is to reproduce and live on in our children, then our minds, which we somehow concieive of as being seperate from our bodies, must also live on, but in a really trippy far out kind of way. in heaven:).....or in helll :(
horseshit!
[color=indigo]Perhaps. We'll find out at the end! I say enjoy the ride while you're here, be excellent to each other, and party on dudes!!
[size=1]Or...was that George Carlin and Abraham Lincoln?[/size]
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[color=indigo]This is indigo.[/color]
[color=indio]This is indio.[/color]
[color=indigo]Note to self: be very careful at 12:45am when handtyping tags.[/color]
Maybe. The bible says that there are angels in heaven....
The bible tells us that God knows us....
and the bible was written by someone who had been there, and would know? did "god" write it? did "jesus" write it? or was it some asshole preists a long time ago who wrote it in a different language .........which has been translated who knows how accurately, abridged, revised, and embelished for centuries. .....just so they could get some control of the populous.
Why is it so hard to believe that if you are a good person, you get a reward at the end? Every major religion/belief system has a "goodie" if you follow the tenets. Nirvana, reincarnation to the next highest form, heaven, Valhalla, hanging out with Allah, whatever. That in mind, how can you say that the 98% of people on this earth that believe something good comes to those who follow the beliefs of their system are stupid? That's an awfully big brush to paint with, Jimbo.
It's not hard to believe.I've seen it before.
Originally posted by sycamore
There better be plenty of Guinness on tap up there...that's all I have to say.
WORD
In heaven there is no beer.
That's why we drink it here.
And when we're gone from here
Our friends will be drinking all the beer.
- traditional
Thank you for completely ruining heaven for me, Toad.
At least now you don't have to try and get there. :)
Originally posted by sycamore
Thank you for completely ruining heaven for me, Toad.
YOU, really don't have to worry about what is or isn't in Heaven.;)
Now then, you have the facts. You know what the human race enjoys and what it doesn't enjoy. It has invented a heaven out of its own head, all by itself: guess what it is like! In fifteen hundred eternities you couldn't do it. The ablest mind known to you or me in fifty million aeons couldn't do it. Very well, I will tell you about it.
1. First of all, I recall to your attention the extraordinary fact with which I began. To wit, that the human being, like the immortals, naturally places sexual intercourse far and away above all other joys -- yet he has left it out of his heaven! The very thought of it excites him; opportunity sets him wild; in this state he will risk life, reputation, everything -- even his queer heaven itself -- to make good that opportunity and ride it to the overwhelming climax. From youth to middle age all men and all women prize copulation above all other pleasures combined, yet it is actually as I have said: it is not in their heaven; prayer takes its place.
They prize it thus highly; yet, like all their so-called "boons," it is a poor thing. At its very best and longest the act is brief beyond imagination -- the imagination of an immortal, I mean. In the matter of repetition the man is limited -- oh, quite beyond immortal conception. We who continue the act and its supremest ecstasies unbroken and without withdrawal for centuries, will never be able to understand or adequately pity the awful poverty of these people in that rich gift which, possessed as we possess it, makes all other possessions trivial and not worth the trouble of invoicing.
2. In man's heaven everybody sings! The man who did not sing on earth sings there; the man who could not sing on earth is able to do it there. The universal singing is not casual, not occasional, not relieved by intervals of quiet; it goes on, all day long, and every day, during a stretch of twelve hours. And everybody stays; whereas in the earth the place would be empty in two hours. The singing is of hymns alone. Nay, it is of one hymn alone. The words are always the same, in number they are only about a dozen, there is no rhyme, there is no poetry: "Hosannah, hosannah, hosannah, Lord God of Sabaoth, 'rah! 'rah! 'rah! siss! -- boom! ... a-a-ah!"
3. Meantime, every person is playing on a harp -- those millions and millions! -- whereas not more than twenty in the thousand of them could play an instrument in the earth, or ever wanted to.
Consider the deafening hurricane of sound -- millions and millions of voices screaming at once and millions and millions of harps gritting their teeth at the same time! I ask you: is it hideous, is it odious, is it horrible?
Consider further: it is a praise service; a service of compliment, of flattery, of adulation! Do you ask who it is that is willing to endure this strange compliment, this insane compliment; and who not only endures it, but likes it, enjoys it, requires if, commands it? Hold your breath!
It is God! This race's god, I mean. He sits on his throne, attended by his four and twenty elders and some other dignitaries pertaining to his court, and looks out over his miles and miles of tempestuous worshipers, and smiles, and purrs, and nods his satisfaction northward, eastward, southward; as quaint and nave a spectacle as has yet been imagined in this universe, I take it.
It is easy to see that the inventor of the heavens did not originate the idea, but copied it from the show-ceremonies of some sorry little sovereign State up in the back settlements of the Orient somewhere.
All sane white people hate noise; yet they have tranquilly accepted this kind of heaven -- without thinking, without reflection, without examination -- and they actually want to go to it! Profoundly devout old gray-headed men put in a large part of their time dreaming of the happy day when they will lay down the cares of this life and enter into the joys of that place. Yet you can see how unreal it is to them, and how little it takes a grip upon them as being fact, for they make no practical preparation for the great change: you never see one of them with a harp, you never hear one of them sing.
As you have seen, that singular show is a service of praise: praise by hymn, praise by prostration. It takes the place of "church." Now then, in the earth these people cannot stand much church -- an hour and a quarter is the limit, and they draw the line at once a week. That is to say, Sunday. One day in seven; and even then they do not look forward to it with longing. And so -- consider what their heaven provides for them: "church" that lasts forever, and a Sabbath that has no end! They quickly weary of this brief hebdomadal Sabbath here, yet they long for that eternal one; they dream of it, they talk about it, they think they think they are going to enjoy it -- with all their simple hearts they think they think they are going to be happy in it!
It is because they do not think at all; they only think they think. Whereas they can't think; not two human beings in ten thousand have anything to think with. And as to imagination -- oh, well, look at their heaven! They accept it, they approve it, they admire it. That gives you their intellectual measure.
4. The inventor of their heaven empties into it all the nations of the earth, in one common jumble. All are on an equality absolute, no one of them ranking another; they have to be "brothers"; they have to mix together, pray together, harp together, Hosannah together -- whites, niggers, Jews, everybody -- there's no distinction. Here in the earth all nations hate each other, and every one of them hates the Jew. Yet every pious person adores that heaven and wants to get into it. He really does. And when he is in a holy rapture he thinks he thinks that if he were only there he would take all the populace to his heart, and hug, and hug, and hug!
He is a marvel -- man is! I would I knew who invented him.
5. Every man in the earth possesses some share of intellect, large or small; and be it large or be it small he takes pride in it. Also his heart swells at mention of the names of the majestic intellectual chiefs of his race, and he loves the tale of their splendid achievements. For he is of their blood, and in honoring themselves they have honored him. Lo, what the mind of man can do! he cries, and calls the roll of the illustrious of all ages; and points to the imperishable literatures they have given to the world, and the mechanical wonders they have invented, and the glories wherewith they have clothed science and the arts; and to them he uncovers as to kings, and gives to them the profoundest homage, and the sincerest, his exultant heart can furnish -- thus exalting intellect above all things else in the world, and enthroning it there under the arching skies in a supremacy unapproachable. And then he contrived a heaven that hasn't a rag of intellectuality in it anywhere!
Is it odd, is it curious, is it puzzling? It is exactly as I have said, incredible as it may sound. This sincere adorer of intellect and prodigal rewarder of its mighty services here in the earth has invented a religion and a heaven which pay no compliments to intellect, offer it no distinctions, fling it no largess: in fact, never even mention it.
By this time you will have noticed that the human being's heaven has been thought out and constructed upon an absolute definite plan; and that this plan is, that it shall contain, in labored detail, each and every imaginable thing that is repulsive to a man, and not a single thing he likes!
- Mark Twain, Letters From Earth
Another example of why Twain (Clements) was praised for his humor.:)
Originally posted by lumberjim
the aforementioned wacky christian propaganda
Cruel Site of the Day posted today a 'remix' version of that Chick tract
hereWhat I love about chick is the way 'god' is a faceless lump and the devil is exquisitely rendered. I think that says more about the tracts than anything else really.
Originally posted by Happy Monkey
Well, obviously the Christian heaven is better than the Christian hell. But I find that it seems to be a choice between creepy and painful, rather than bliss and torment.
but here is the kicker - the believer risks nothing if he is wrong. if you believe there is an afterlife and then find nothing - what have you lost?
if you are an unbeliever - eternity is at risk. believing that there is no heaven or hell and then be proven wrong??? ouch.
i guess that is why it is called faith. you've got to believe it to see it.
well, there's a surprise. lookout is a bush supporter AND a good christian. whooda thunk it?
Originally posted by lookout123
but here is the kicker - the believer risks nothing if he is wrong. if you believe there is an afterlife and then find nothing - what have you lost?
if you are an unbeliever - eternity is at risk. believing that there is no heaven or hell and then be proven wrong??? ouch.
i guess that is why it is called faith. you've got to believe it to see it.
Pascal's wager is worthless. There are a million religions. If you believe one of them, then you rule out most of the rest. A nonbeliever is risking the wrath of only one more god than the believer.
but, monkey, the christian god is the jealous one. as long as you believe jesus is your savior, you're ok. if you've never heard of him, ....well, you're fucked.
sorry.
Most of the Greek/Roman ones were pretty damn jealous. Of each other, no less.
Originally posted by lumberjim
but, monkey, the christian god is the jealous one. as long as you believe jesus is your savior, you're ok. if you've never heard of him, ....well, you're fucked.
sorry.
wow - you are pretty fucking deep there lumberjim - you don't even need to look into someone's beliefs before labeling them shit. unless i am mistaken i don't remember going after you on a personal level. and you claim to hate bush - you've got a pretty good mastery of the preemptive strike.
you should see my backhand.
hey, sorry, bub. i didnt mean to attack you personally. I was referring to my mistrust of "good Christians", and their leader, George Bush. When the President starts talking about good and evil on a daily basis, appearing to speak before congregations, and espousing his religious beliefs, I get a really filthy feeling. Did not George Washington himself specifically say that this country was not founded on ANY religion? When the fuck did Christianity become the National Religion? I didn't vote for it. I don;t even remember there being a vote! I'm often flabbergasted by the whole arrangement.
Nothing personal. I'm not promising you that I won;t go there, but I wasn;t this time. Not really.
Originally posted by lookout123
and you claim to hate bush - you've got a pretty good mastery of the preemptive strike.
i don't recall saying i hate bush. I said he scares me. I can't really think of anyone I hate. Not really. People piss me off sometimes, but hate is wasteful.
[flea] I'm a pacifist, so I can fuck your shit up[/flea]
about heaven:
i was thinking about this with jinx tonight, and looked at it mathematically...a little
There is the possibility that there is an afterlife, and there is the possibility that there is not. 50/50 odds. Of the 50% chance that there IS an afterlife, there are myriad and infinite possibilities of what that could be like. One possibility is the Christian heaven. one. one in infinity chances. 1 out of 2 sounds like better odds to me. I'd prefer that there be
something afterwards, but I can;t count on it. I have to do what I can in this life.
What if the "light" that people refer to seeing after being revived from clinical death is the light at the end of the birth canal?
What if the "light" that people refer to seeing after being revived from clinical death is the light at the end of the birth canal?
Whoa.
Much as I've often been presented throughout my life with the general idea of reincarnation, that particular image has never occurred to me. I must admit it's a little disconcerting.
If that were the case, would that mean people who don't go towards the light are stillborn?
let's take it a bit farther:
perhaps the above ods are accurate. and there is a 50/50 chance that there is something after. one half chance that you DO go toward the light, which is the light at the end of the birth canal, and your next life, and one that you do NOT go toward the light, and there is no afterlife. You;re just gone.
miss your chance, and game over. this is just as valid a possibility as any other religion. And if this is the actual truth, and no one knows it, and no one teaches us, then the ods remain 50/50. if many of us knew about this, accepted and believed it, we'd be wanting to share this knowledge with those around us, right? Do we have a moral responsibility to spread the word? Are we partly responsible for these...lost souls, these "non light goers"...that we could have warned but did not? :eek:
I'll need to flesh this out a bit more, maybe write a few childrens stories about it and come up with a prophet to spread the word,( you interested, radar?) but in ...oh, I don't know...2000 years?....this could be the driving religion behind the most powerful planet in the solar system or something.
Oh, I almost forgot...we'll need a name for it.....anyone?
.....and they say Christians are nutz.
To put the thread back on track...how much more free-will can you get? God reveals the fact that there is a hell and a heaven, and he gives us an out. We can make of it what we will. While some people get numerous chances to accept the truth of the bible, some only get one. In places where it's never been heard of, there are still civilizations that recognize the concept of one creator that they have to follow (somewhere in the bible it says that, I will look it up tomorrow if you remind me).
God says: here's the information you need to stay in good with me. Make of it what you will. See you at the second coming, bye.
The people who are so upset about the free-will nonsense won't believe the truth about God unless they are offered absolute, unarguable, verifiable scientific data that he exists. (Thus removing their choice not to believe, ironically).
the brainwashing of religion is so fundemantal and basic that even otherwise intelligent people succumb to it.
.....and they say Christians are nutz.
well, yeah. that's what I'm saying.
God says
does he have a deep voice? I've always wondered.
The people who are so upset about the free-will nonsense won't believe the truth about God unless they are offered absolute, unarguable, verifiable scientific data that he exists. (Thus removing their choice not to believe, ironically).
"the truth about god" - YOUR truth. keep it to yourself, thanks.
as for data, there is none. no way to know, so how can you say you're anymore right than i am? I'm not saying you're definatley wrong, I'm saying that you are no more right than I am. not even a little bit.
To the Christians: harshly questionning your beliefs is not an attack on you personally.
If you would like to see a personal attack, so you can tell the difference, that can be arranged.
Is there free will in heaven? Absolutely.
For me, Heaven represents the absence of temptation. Heaven is the one place the devil can't work his mojo and since the devil is the source (although not the responsible party) of whatever separation there might be between humans and God, the absence of temptation, is, therefore, heaven (unity with God).
At least that's the presumption I operate under however ignorant it must appear to people who believe otherwise.
So if the devil were eliminated, Earth would become paradise, regardless of free will?
Originally posted by Happy Monkey
So if the devil were eliminated, Earth would become paradise, regardless of free will?
I have no idea what would happen to Earth if Satan suddenly ceased to exist. My answer above (no pun intended - nyuk, nyuk) was for Heaven.
I'd have to think about Earth. But, my prelim guess is that Earth would be paradise-like (we're still human and so I can't rule out suffering which may preclude calling Earth paradise) if Satan (or the personificaiton of evil) stopped exerting influence on people's actions and intentions. At a minimum, I think things would be a little better than they are if and when things we all pretty much agree are evil suddenly became a thing of the past.
I guess the degree to which one might be inclined to refer to a world without temptation as paradise would have to be a function of where that person is now. A drug lord who's living large on the backs of his addicts might call the "new world" hell whereas a North Korean starving in solitary for a political "crime" might be inclined to call the new world paradise.
I think heaven's here on earth (as is hell). It is up to each of us through our use of free will to act so that there will be a little bit of heaven in our lives and those of the people around us. We can also choose to act to create hell. I don't believe in Satan. There's only foolish (or down-right sociopathic) human beings. In my life I have met many "angels" - ordinary human beings who act with kindness and compassion.
Originally posted by lumberjim
"the truth about god" - YOUR truth. keep it to yourself, thanks.
LJ, this is what I've ranted about in other threads. Why is it that the only group of people who are supposed to "keep it to themselves" are Christians? Anti-christians are not about free thought, no matter what they otherwise preach. They consistently demonstrate the most closed-minded attitude of any group.
as for data, there is none. no way to know, so how can you say you're anymore right than i am? I'm not saying you're definatley wrong, I'm saying that you are no more right than I am. not even a little bit.
I say it isn't about me being right or you being right. If there is something that is true, it's true, regardless of what you or I believe. As for data, there's scads of it. Untold volumes of it. Millenia-worth. It just doesn't fit into your system of measurement.
well yeah, that's what I'm saying (re: Xtians are nuts)
If I'm wrong in my beliefs, I haven't lost anything. I'll die and there will be nothing but oblivion. But if you're wrong, you've lost everything. Knowing what I know, it's not a gamble I'm willing to take, regardless of the immediate state of my 'faith' at any given moment.
the brainwashing of religion is so fundemantal and basic that even otherwise intelligent people succumb to it.
I haven't mentioned religion once. I believe in God because of faith, which I came by independently of any organized theology. My beliefs are deeply held, and come from a desire to be more in touch with the world around me and with the creator of that world. Your beliefs can be summed up with "ain't no God gonna tell me what to do." We have different definition of intelligence.
Originally posted by mrnoodle
If I'm wrong in my beliefs, I haven't lost anything. I'll die and there will be nothing but oblivion. But if you're wrong, you've lost everything.
What if Islam is correct? Then we've both lost.
Why is it that the only group of people who are supposed to "keep it to themselves" are Christians?
because they're the only ones trying to force their beleifs on this country. the great white burden and all.
They consistently demonstrate the most closed-minded attitude of any group.
yet you summarily reject my beliefs, as i've outlined above
If there is something that is true, it's true, regardless of what you or I believe. As for data, there's scads of it. Untold volumes of it. Millenia-worth. It just doesn't fit into your system of measurement.
it doesnt fit my definition of accurate data. how can anyone who is still alive tell us about the hereafter?
I believe in God because of faith, which I came by independently of any organized theology.
bullshit. you believe in god because everyone expects you to.
from the very beginning, you've been led to believe without proof. faith. faith is another way of saying, "trust me" which is Yiddish for "fuck you"
Your beliefs can be summed up with "ain't no God gonna tell me what to do." We have different definition of intelligence.
my beliefs cannot be summed up by saying anything. maybe you're right about us having different def's of intelligence. your blinders are getting in your way.
because they're the only ones trying to force their beleifs on this country. the great white burden and all.
While I can't argue that many of us are pushy about our beliefs, we don't do it any more than any other group. The vegans don't want me to be able to go to McDonalds. The atheists don't want kids to be able to have prayer groups at school. Muslims think Jews are full of shit. Jews think Christians are full of shit. Christians think atheists are full of shit. In modern American society, however, only Christians are considered fair game for your scorn. SNL occasionally pokes light fun at Jews with Brooklyn accents, but that's it. Imagine the outrage at a Muslim version of the Church Lady.
yet you summarily reject my beliefs, as i've outlined above
Yes. We summarily reject one another's beliefs because they are diametrically opposed. It's the nature of the beast. However, I don't go around calling all non-Christians delusional. I just say they're wrong. Big difference in tone, dude.
it doesnt fit my definition of accurate data. how can anyone who is still alive tell us about the hereafter?
They can't tell you what color the drapery is, or whether or not we have to play harps 24 hrs a day. But they can tell you about the peace they feel when they've come to grips with their own sinful nature and the relationship between themselves and God that they perceive on a very deep level.
bullshit. you believe in god because everyone expects you to.
Don't start getting personal. I don't presume to know your motives, stay away from mine unless I tell you what they are.
from the very beginning, you've been led to believe without proof. faith. faith is another way of saying, "trust me" which is Yiddish for "fuck you"
I was taught about God in childhood. I didn't become convinced of his existence until later. My faith doesn't need proof, but the proof I see bolsters my faith. My conversion happened as a result of trying (and failing) to live a life without meaning. I spent all my time trying to find pleasure for myself. Being a fairly decent sort, I spent money on others and tried to make them happy - but never at the expense of my own pleasure and immediate happiness. I got everything I wanted, like any spoiled brat. I was utterly miserable. Couldn't get high enough, couldn't get laid enough, couldn't even go hunting enough to kill the ache that I pretended wasn't there.
The longer I think about it, the more offended I am that you would insult my experience by saying that I'm just parroting what some preacher told me. I get that you're bitter about something, but it wasn't my fault, man. Read
The Case for Christ for an example of a journalist who set out to disprove Christianity and..um..fell victim to the brainwashing of hordes of mindless fable-obsessed morality zombies.
I think it's time to set the record straight about something else. There's a little difference between my faith and my politics. The latter is influenced by the former, but I don't think government should necessarily be rooted in theology. Yah, it would be nice, from my point of view. But I think the Denver Broncos should win every football game they play, too. Let's just say I think secular government works better if it's populated by those who don't ignore the belief system of a large portion of their constituency.
Don't start getting personal. I don't presume to know your motives, stay away from mine unless I tell you what they are.
Nothing personal about what i said. no more than you intimating that i'm not intelligent, anyway:
We have different definition of intelligence.
hell, noodle, i dont even know your name. ( i dropped the "mr" because that is a term of respect, and right now, my respect for you is slipping)
i find it highly unlikely that :
I believe in God because of faith, which I came by independently of any organized theology.
independantly? really? I. myself, have a kernel of doubt about this because of the information I was given all of my life about this. Even though logically, I feel that if there is a "GOD", then it's just as likely to be any of the available religions' god, or pagan gods, or the force as it is to be the god that lives in heaven. My parents are christian, my school taught us the christian faith, although they aren't supposed to. Our leaders and government, the TV, the people I talked to growing up. all calmly accept the christian faith as a given, and are surprised when they encounter someone who disbelieves.
how can you say you were not influenced by organized religion? it's insidious. it's everywhere. unavoidable. you claim to take credit for arriving at the same conclusion by coincedence? that's why i said "bullshit"...because it is. you may not have noticed, but you were taught to believe in god.
You all might be right, noodle. but, so might I be. and so might the Jews, the Buddhists, the Muslims.
and I don't summarily dismiss your belief. It is every bit as likely as mine. I reject your pity:
If I'm wrong in my beliefs, I haven't lost anything. I'll die and there will be nothing but oblivion. But if you're wrong, you've lost everything.
if i'm not a christian, what makes you think i've lost anything? hubris, i say. you ASSUME that everyone wants to go to "heaven" and praise the Lord for eternity. sounds like a real picnic.
[COLOR=indigo]faith is not brainwashed. The unthinking sheep can have faith, because he never thought about what he is being fed.
The person who thinks about the subject and has had a personal experience can have faith independantly (IOW, not directly caused by) the preponderance of religion in his/her life.
I have to agree with Noodles on this one Jim, and I've noticed that the subject of religion pushes the "asshole" button on you. It makes you cranky and tends to make you personally attack. Just an observation.[/COLOR]
Originally posted by mrnoodle
The longer I think about it, the more offended I am that you would insult my experience by saying that I'm just parroting what some preacher told me. I get that you're bitter about something, but it wasn't my fault, man. Read The Case for Christ for an example of a journalist who set out to disprove Christianity and..um..fell victim to the brainwashing of hordes of mindless fable-obsessed morality zombies.
I'm not trying to insult your experience. I'm saying that because you enjoy your belief in GOD, doesn;t mean I have to. Nor does it mean that I will go to hell because I don't believe what you believe.
I am happy for you that you have your faith. i'm sure it helps you on a daily basis. really. i'm not being sarcastic. you seem like a good dude. go with god. you'll probably go to heaven when you die. My real opinion is that you experience what you expect to experience when you die. you judge yourself.
i believe in reincarnation
Time to ratchet it down a notch. Your intelligence isn't in question, and I'm sorry if I came across that way. As for the rest:
independantly? really? I. myself, have a kernel of doubt about this because of the information I was given all of my life about this.
I'm saying that I had an experience that proved to my satisfaction the existence of God. This experience happened during a period of searching that resulted from a lifetime of rebelling against what I had been taught about God. Nobody "made" me believe anything. I didn't believe it, didn't want to believe it, thought it was a crutch for weak-minded fools and a tool of the establishment to gain control over the populace. I was a fairly proficient tarot card reader (albeit with no training), dabbled in nature worship, went the hedonism route for a few years, then was fairly agnostic until I finally realized that life with God was far richer than life without. Why would I ignore a revelation like that? When I saw people's lives and attitudes change dramatically for the better because they had (or "felt they had", if that's more palatable to you) a personal relationship with God (again, insert quotes wherever they suit you), it made an impression. It didn't have much to do with my upbringing - my parents are consistently horrified by my behavior. The only thing we really agree on is that Jesus died so we didn't have to. What's so wrong with that? The fact that I tell other people about it? Sorry to step in their preconceived notion of the horrors of "religion", but they'll get over it.
You all might be right, noodle. but, so might I be. and so might the Jews, the Buddhists, the Muslims.
Might be. A bird flying overhead *might* belong to a number of species, but the possibilities don't really matter. It's either a bluebird, or a blackbird, or whatever. The other choices are necessarily void. If it makes one happy to call a blackbird a stork, fine. But if I know better, don't expect me to give your opinion equal weight to mine.
if i'm not a christian, what makes you think i've lost anything? hubris, i say. you ASSUME that everyone wants to go to "heaven" and praise the Lord for eternity. sounds like a real picnic.
If I see that a giant boulder is falling down a mountain towards your house, I feel it's my responsibility to warn you. If the boulder turns out to be a pebble, or takes a course away from your house, that's fine. I did what I thought was right. As for assuming that everyone wants to praise the lord for all eternity, I don't. I would think that people's aversion to that fate is made clear simply by turning on the television.
What makes me think you will lose something? What makes you think you haven't?
Originally posted by OnyxCougar
[COLOR=indigo]faith is not brainwashed. The unthinking sheep can have faith, because he never thought about what he is being fed.
The person who thinks about the subject and has had a personal experience can have faith independantly (IOW, not directly caused by) the preponderance of religion in his/her life.
I have to agree with Noodles on this one Jim, and I've noticed that the subject of religion pushes the "asshole" button on you. It makes you cranky and tends to make you personally attack. Just an observation.[/COLOR]
my "asshole button"? that's a good one. don;t get shit on your finger!
rofl.....
you're right about those that choose to believe and have faith. i said brainwashing. that was too strong a word. i refer to the effect that the cumulative opinion of the masses has on the individual. the "peer pressure"....
I may seem cranky. what i really am feeling is disapointment. or bewilderment.
as i said before, i find it appalling that people who's opinions I normally respect......break down and fall back on "faith" as their argument. faith is not an argument. faith is believing something that you can't prove. While I can;t prove them wrong. my position is at least as valid as theirs. why can;t we just say " i dunno?"
neither of you two have said ...hey, yeah, your idea is just as good as mine. I've repeated that several times now. respect me, and i'll respect you.
If I see that a giant boulder is falling down a mountain towards your house, I feel it's my responsibility to warn you. If the boulder turns out to be a pebble, or takes a course away from your house, that's fine. I did what I thought was right.
Nood, I think your belief system is full of shit. But I'm telling you this because I *care*.
Ain't I so damn thoughtful??
You are welcome!!!
Not really. If you were actually warning me, sure. But the only thing you're warning me about is looking stupid in front of people who don't share my beliefs. In their eyes, I crossed that line long ago anyway. Oh, look, a bible verse:
If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. - J.C.
Going in, I knew that the majority of people would think I was full of shit. If I didn't believe something strongly, would I deliberately open myself to ridicule? It'd be way easier to jump on the anti-christian bandwagon. I had 30 years of practice, I'm as good at it as you are.
as i said before, i find it appalling that people who's opinions I normally respect......break down and fall back on "faith" as their argument. faith is not an argument. faith is believing something that you can't prove. While I can;t prove them wrong. my position is at least as valid as theirs. why can;t we just say " i dunno?"
neither of you two have said ...hey, yeah, your idea is just as good as mine. I've repeated that several times now. respect me, and i'll respect you.
Why is faith a "fall-back"? It's not a step below intellectual thought, nor is it exclusive of it. They compliment each other. Try looking at the whole concept with an open mind instead of coloring your investigation with childhood disappointments and anger at "the church".
[SIZE=1]Incidentally, the Vatican has done more damage to the message of Christ than any other single entity in the history of the world, IMO.[/SIZE]
I guess the reason we can't meet in the middle on this, LJ, is that there is no middle to it. All belief systems are not equal. If I feel something is wrong, I can't say it's right. That being said, I don't think you are less of a person for believing what you believe. I think you are probably more intelligent than I am (no sarcasm). Your argument makes more sense than mine does, from a humanist's standpoint. But that's just it, I'm not a humanist. I'm a Christian. Humanists can't ever see worship as more than a quaint hobby (you can do whatever, just don't scare the horses), and believers can't ever see it as less than the meaning of life. Just the way it is, I guess.
That's cold man.
I don't care about you looking silly, I care about you wasting your life.
i never asked you to believe that what i think is right. i just ask that you believe that it is POSSIBLE. That's how i feel about christianity. it's possible. no more. no less.
faith and logic are not mutually exclusive, you're right.
However, to say something is true because you believe it is elementally wrong. you can believe something because it is true, but not the other way 'round. no one can really say for sure what is and is not true of the after life. can you?
Originally posted by lumberjim
i never asked you to believe that what i think is right. i just ask that you believe that it is POSSIBLE. That's how i feel about christianity. it's possible. no more. no less.
faith and logic are not mutually exclusive, you're right.
However, to say something is true because you believe it is elementally wrong. you can believe something because it is true, but not the other way 'round. no one can really say for sure what is and is not true of the after life. can you?
Faith and logic are not mutually exclusive, but faith and proof are. If something has been proved, we no longer need to have faith in it. Faith is the existence of belief despite the abscence of proof.
I have a few devout Christian friends. We even sometimes discuss religion. However, most of the time we keep our faiths to ourselves.
Having someone constantly tell you how happy they are with their religion is like having someone constantly tell you how happy they are with their car/clothes/hair/house/job etc. - annoying.
It gets even more annoying when they tell you that you should get the same religion car/clothes/hair/house/job etc.
I gets really, really, annoying when they torture you until you promise to get the same religion car/clothes/hair/house/job etc.
It was very sad that Jesus died. It was even sadder that his followers were persecuted. It was very sad when said followers got into power and hunted down the decendants of Jesus in the name of Jesus.
It was even sadder when the followers of Christians fought Christians for hundreds of years and laid waste to vast stretches of Europe.
Almost every organized religion existing in the world is a 'survivor'. In general, this means that in order to survive they may have done things that do not quite fit with a perfect view of the world. (Pope Innocent IV's authorization of torture for the 1st Inquisition comes to mind).
So it should be understandable that people are leery of religion and of the religious. Because while it is wonderful that individuals are looking inward, finding God, and changing themselves, the trouble starts when they look outward, see everyone else and say "But enough about me, let's see how I can make
you better".
So it should be understandable that people are leery of religion and of the religious. Because while it is wonderful that individuals are looking inward, finding God, and changing themselves, the trouble starts when they look outward, see everyone else and say "But enough about me, let's see how I can make you better".
That’s why many people differentiate between being religious and having faith. I work with a lot of double belly buttons (reborns), that act like they just discovered the vending machine was giving double your money back. They are so thrilled that they want to share the wealth and insist you do it too. They don’t want to control you, they just want you to share their euphoria. Annoying? Yes, but not in a malicious way, more like a kid that just learned the word “why”.
As long as you believe Jesus is your savior, you're ok. If you've never heard of him, ....well, you're fucked.
No, if you never heard of him you’re cool. You’ll be given a chance to get on board at Armageddon. If you’ve heard of and rejected him, then you’re fucked.
:)
why is it so important to jesus that we believe in him before we die. I'm not ruling out the possibility that the bible is true, and it's thumpers are correct. unlikely, i think, but anything is possible. If, when I die, it turns out that it IS true, and i've lived my life as a good person, and have a clear conscience, why can;t I accept Jesus when I meet him, and he tells me that "yes" he's the son of GOD, and "yes, there IS a god...that's him over there....."...??? what is it about the faith, and worship that qualifies you as eligible for eternal bliss?
how can a god sentence you to the proper place for eternity based on 50-70 years of life on earth?
I have a few devout Christian friends. We even sometimes discuss religion. However, most of the time we keep our faiths to ourselves.
I abide by this principle at most times (except forum threads on religion).
why is it so important to jesus that we believe in him before we die.
Everyone has heard of John 3:16, but the verses following it are equally important. They are Jesus' words to Nicodemus (a member of the Jewish ruling council - a 'religious' man in every sense of the word*). Bear with me, it all applies:
[SIZE=1]For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.[/SIZE]
Reader's Digest version: we are separated from God because of sin. In our imperfection, we are unable to bridge the gap through any good thing we do. So, God sent a sinless replacement to pay the penalty for our wrongdoing, thus bridging the gap. The only thing we have to do to is believe that it's true. The preceding example is only one of many. You actually have to read the bible to "get" it - any quote I provide needs the context of the whole work to make complete sense. I'll put my money where my mouth is. I'll mail a bible, free of charge, to anyone who asks for one. Just pm me. I don't have any money right now, but I'll dig one up for anyone who will read it willingly, and with an open mind. If you think I'm some kind of TV preacher selling snake oil, you're wrong. Look at any of my other posts on any subject - I've been honest about my views, whether they align with Christianity or not. Am I a hypocrite? Yep. And a liar, and greedy, and lustful. And everything else bad. But I have a goal I aspire to, no matter how badly I miss it.
If, when I die, it turns out that it IS true, and i've lived my life as a good person, and have a clear conscience, why can;t I accept Jesus when I meet him, and he tells me that "yes" he's the son of GOD, and "yes, there IS a god...that's him over there....."...??? what is it about the faith, and worship that qualifies you as eligible for eternal bliss?
You can't have it both ways. If I spend my life rejecting God because I think Christianity takes away my freedom of choice, I can't complain to him at the end of my life because his word turned out to be true and I didn't believe it. You want choice or not?
so WHY is it so important for christians to believe? you showed me where is says it. I already knew it to be true. I said WHY?
In your own words.
You can't have it both ways. If I spend my life rejecting God because I think Christianity takes away my freedom of choice, I can't complain to him at the end of my life because his word turned out to be true and I didn't believe it. You want choice or not?
And I wasn't saying I reject God. In my question, I have led a good life. One that otherwise aligns with the christian ( and most other religions, btw) tenents. I simply reserve judgement on what will come after this life until I get there. Why must I be damned to an eternity of hell for being rational?
I have to tell you that I've asked this questions of christians before and the answer is always " that's just how it is" If what I have described IS true, and the christian God WOULD damn me just for not believing in Jesus based on what is written in a bible that I don't trust to be the original message, then ......
I guess I expect GOD to be nicer.
Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.
perhaps the above ods are accurate. and there is a 50/50 chance that there is something after. one half chance that you DO go toward the light, which is the light at the end of the birth canal, and your next life, and one that you do NOT go toward the light, and there is no afterlife. You;re just gone
There is a much better explanation for why belief via faith is a required component of this religion: because it would be the one thing that would really cause the religion to last over time.
Just look at which ideas disappear quickly and which continue to travel around.
There are many competing ideas about how the universe was created, because Man cannot STAND to "not know". The unanswerable questions are terrible for us human begins. Our curiosity is innate. So there have always been fairy tales and stories about how it all came to be. And some of the stories had to last.
An idea, a notion, whether it's true or false, requires things in order to remain in our collective consciousness over time. For example, it has to be utterly important. It has to have personal consequences for the [non-]believer. Christianity achieves this by making it the most critical decision you can possibly make: not only does it affect your life, but your afterlife as well. You can watch people on the Cellar offering up those odds plainly: the price of not believing might be very grave indeed. If I care about you I pass along this information. Thus the information is passed along, without regard for its truth. In the face of all kinds of opposing evidence, such as the fossil record and our discoveries about space, the only way for the idea to survive is to discuss it outside the realm of logic and facts. And voila, so it is.
A notion requires a complete narrative and drama. This kind of drama is why urban legends are passed along: they are compelling as stories. Without the right kind of drama, they are not passed along and don't survive. And voila, so there is narrative, drama, and characters in the religions that have lasted. The characters are humanized as much as possible even when their form is unknowable. This is necessary in order for the ideas to last.
The ideas also have to subtlely change over time in order to last, so a certain degree of flexibility is required. The way we think Christianity works today is entirely and totally different form how we thought it worked 1000 years ago. Can this possibly be true? No, but if it still worked how it worked then, it would not last. Voila biblical interpretation: the orders of religion change along with the society. When the people demand change, someone will bang up a new list of rules on a door and the rules people prefer will be the ones that last.
In fact there have been competing religions all along and by this point, only the ones that have these kinds of attributes have survived. That in turn tells you an awful lot about the religions.
True enough, UT. You and I can see the
real reason that faith is a requirement.
It has to have personal consequences for the [non-]believer. Christianity achieves this by making it the most critical decision you can possibly make: not only does it affect your life, but your afterlife as well.
If you don't do what we tell you to, not only will you suffer in this life, but for all of eternity.
I was interested in hearing the answer from a believer. What explanation have they been given, that they found to be acceptable enough to be the cornerstone of their religion?
The Bible says so?
Religion and faith at their best are the fires that drive people like Mother Teresa, Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr, and Saint Francis.
From a Catholic perspective, a follower of Jesus is not supposed to just lead a good life, they are supposed to lead a saintly life as exemplified by someone like Mother Teresa. She may not be officially a saint, but I use her as an example because she is well known and her life speaks for itself. She is an example of the kind of demands Jesus in the Bible asks of those who would follow him. Most Christians fall a bit short, no? Faith is a way of drawing strength from God when human strength would fail.
Lumberjim asks why are we supposed to have faith. Faith is supposed to make us more than what we are without it. That is why it is so badly needed.
Originally posted by Slartibartfast
Faith is supposed to make us more than what we are without it. That is why it is so badly needed.
so it's motivation. But, if something is right, it's right....right? Belief in GOD makes you want to strive toward being as godlike as you can. I'm all for that. Faith because you HAVE to or you'll burn in hell doesn;t work for me.
Spiritual people are spiritual people. the details are irrelevant, and often harmful.
I say it is enough to live your life as a good person. when i'm elected god, i'll make sure everyone knows that. :)
Ghandi was however lacking the right *kind* of faith and therefore, according to your belief system, is currently roasting.
There is a much better explanation for why belief via faith is a required component of this religion: because it would be the one thing that would really cause the religion to last over time.
Belief via faith is the central point of almost any religion. And there are many religions that have lasted for centuries and thrive to this day. However, Christianity has two vital differences with them - it's central figure claimed to be God, and claims resurrection from the dead.
1) He asked his followers to drop everything and follow him. He said that there was no way to come to the Father except through him. He said that "Before Abraham was, I AM". If he wasn't deliberately misleading people, was he delusional? A good man who maybe took himself too seriously? Nope. He suffered the worst death the time had to offer. If he knew he was lying, he would have broken under the strain. No one will die the most horrible of deaths for something they know is a lie. Delusional? It would be a very deep delusion that would carry him through the passion without giving in and crying mercy. Instead, he forgave those who were pinning him to the cross (through the wrists, Mel). By the same token, he took no credit for himself - "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing."
2) Muhammed's tomb has an occupant. The Buddha's tomb has an occupant. Jesus' tomb is empty. This is important. Of course, the remaining 11 disciples could have stolen the body out from under the nose of the Roman guard, but they were the same guys who ran when he was arrested and denied him when they were interrogated by the crowds. Still, it's a possiblity. Barring that, however, you have to give credence to his claim that he is alive. Thomas didn't buy it until he put his hands on the wounds themselves. It would take up all Jesus' time just to stand on earth and let ppl come by and stick their fingers in the nail holes, so we have to have faith.
Regardless of what else is out there religion-wise (and as I've said, I've been open-minded in my search), I refuse to be one of the crowd at the foot of the cross yelling, "If you're God, come down off your cross." I know a king when I see one.
so it's motivation. But, if something is right, it's right....right? Belief in GOD makes you want to strive toward being as godlike as you can. I'm all for that. Faith because you HAVE to or you'll burn in hell doesn;t work for me.
You are right on track all the way to the last sentence....faith because you have to isn't faith. Can you really think of someone having faith based on fear? When has that ever worked? If someone just wants a "get out of hell free" ticket, their faith always wavers (and might have never been there). True faith frees you from the slavery of sin, which in turn makes you acceptable to God. The devil's afraid of hell, but he's going anyway.
Tangent: The devil can quote more scripture than you or me, also. The real danger is for people who are "religious" without being saved. That's the primary message of many books of the bible - hypocrites are going to pay. That alone should endear one to it.
[COLOR=indigo]One shard of Christianity believes that no one is in heaven or hell until the Second Coming of Christ. Right now, everyone who ever lived (with a few exceptions) is just dead, waiting for Final Judgement. Then, when you come up before Jesus, he looks at your life and says where you wind up.
and on a side note, Jim, your ideas are just as possible as Christianity is, and Islam is, and Hindi, and Ba'hai, and VooDoo and Paganism and Druidic and Alienism.
Whatever you believe, it's a belief. Profound, huh?[/COLOR]
Forgot to answer LJ's point:
I was interested in hearing the answer from a believer. What explanation have they been given, that they found to be acceptable enough to be the cornerstone of their religion?
It's different from believer to believer. For me, it was the logic that finally pushed me over the edge, so to speak. Nobody elses' god changes lives so profoundly and completely.
Look at it historically. It ties back to the "was Jesus telling the truth about himself" question. The 12 apostles of Christ were not completely on board with Jesus throughout his ministry. They constantly questioned him, and none of them actually believed that he would physically raise from the dead. They were Jews - they were waiting for a messiah that would free Israel from the Romans. They fought among themselves to be Jesus' closest "advisor" so they would be in a better position when he set up his kingdom in Jerusalem and overthrew Herod (considered to be a puppet of Rome by his followers). When Jesus was arrested, they scattered. ) One of them stayed long enough to take a swipe at a guard (remember, they thought of Jesus as the future king and themselves as his "posse"), but they were gone soon after. They stayed in hiding until the crucifixion was over - none were present at the execution (I don't think so, anyway...fuzzy on this point). At the time of the resurrection, they were still in hiding, trying to figure out an escape plan. When Mary (not mom) ran in saying the tomb was empty, a couple of them went with her to check it out. When they saw that it WAS empty, they were at a loss.
Even then, not all of them believed, e.g. Thomas. Yet by the end of their lives, every last one of them was murdered for preaching the gospel. They were stoned, crucified, crucified upside down, beheaded....I think there was one that simply died in prison, but I don't have a bible in front of me at the moment. The point is, that's a big change. The disciples didn't believe because of faith, they believed because they SAW what happened, and were willing to devote the rest of their lives preaching it. But, as Jesus said, "You believe because you have seen. Blessed are they who don't see, and still believe" (paraphrased).
That's the cornerstone of my faith, personally. Again, another believer might have a different answer.
Originally posted by OnyxCougar
[COLOR=indigo]One shard of Christianity believes that no one is in heaven or hell until the Second Coming of Christ.[/COLOR]
I'm one of them. I didn't know there was an organized cell of them...it's just something I got from reading the beeblay.
[COLOR=indigo]Agreed. That's the bible's version of it, but most Christians have the "as soon as I die I go to heaven or hell" version in thier heads. *shrug* Dang Catholics. ;)
edit: Mormons believe in the "waiting" preceding the Second Coming. Oddly, I found that except for the Joseph Smith/Living Prophet stuff, I really agreed with their take on the bible and how to live your life.[/COLOR]
Originally posted by OnyxCougar
[COLOR=indigo]
and on a side note, Jim, your ideas are just as possible as Christianity is, and Islam is, and Hindi, and Ba'hai, and VooDoo and Paganism and Druidic and Alienism.
[/COLOR]
thank you. was that so hard?
by mrnoodle
You are right on track all the way to the last sentence....faith because you have to isn't faith. Can you really think of someone having faith based on fear? When has that ever worked?
earlier by mrnoodleIf I'm wrong in my beliefs, I haven't lost anything. I'll die and there will be nothing but oblivion. But if you're wrong, you've lost everything. Knowing what I know, it's [color=red]not a gamble I'm willing to take[/color], regardless of the immediate state of my 'faith' at any given moment.
something doesn;t jive here. you won;t gamble because you're afraid of losing the bet, right? you imply that you believe in god just in case it turns out to be true. Enough to use it as an argument, at least.
but is it faith in spite of the fact that you MUST have it? If you have to have faith, and have to believe to get in, how do you know you haven;t just done a good job of tricking yourself into believing that you truly believe. How many "christians" are just going through the motions "just in case?" they go to church, they follow the rules, but maybe they doubt it a little.....maybe they think ther might be some truth to another religion, too. Is it enough to SAY you believe?
I feel as strongly as any bible thumper does about my beliefs, yet, as I said, there is a small kernel of doubt. always. maybe the millions of christians are right, and this sucks, but this is how it is, and i'm going to burn in hell. therefoer, my "faith" in what
I believe is not absolute. does a christian's faith have to be absolute? what if you're having a "bad faith day" when you happen to die?
I hope this illustrates to you the ridiculous nature of these little rules most conventional religions employ. Live as a good christian, in as much as it makes you stronger and wiser, but dont tell me im gonna burn cuz i dont like your flavor of ice cream.
i will not accept that a truly good person who does not happen to accept jesus h christ as his savior will fry for eternity. that's ludicrous. can you honestly say you DO believe that? really???
This thread reminded me of a discussion I had with a good friend - some old-timers here may remember him, AlphaGeek? - on this subject. The following was developed after a freeform thought session at about four, five in the morning a month back. Here goes:
(PS: If something like this was touched on already, my apologies. I gotta run soon, so poring over six pages of philosophy is not in the cards.)
----------
Steve (4:09:56 AM): if you believe in heaven, it is total satisfaction, which is the lack of desire and feeling....if you don't believe in heaven, then when you die, you simply cease to exist
Before I begin, I'd like to point out that it's remarkable how many times I've been metaphysically hit upside the head in the immediately pre-dawn hours. Continuing.
I've been mulling over that statement you made there, and it struck me. Throughout upbringing, we are inculcated with the belief (the Heaven belief, precisely) that when we die, we go to a paradise world, where our every need and want is catered to. However, in this scenario, we are still ourselves. We, to our core, are no different for all eternity. But how can that be? We, as humans, are defined by needs and wants; by pressures and standards and on and on and on. To quote Biff from Lamb (I swear, that book is so underappreciated. There really should be a monument built to it.): "Without the past, where's the guilt? And without the future, where's the dread? And without guilt and dread, who am I?"
Perhaps that's what Hell truly is: being as you are, being human, for eternity. The knowledge that stars will burn out, alien civilizations and species will be born, rise, fall, and wither away, and whole galaxies will spin into oblivion before you even have a hope of being satisfied. I remember sitting in a guidance counselor's office after he finished reading a story about a particularly tragic teen suicide, and he asked me how - why - people like me could turn to such an end. I pointed to a poster behind him that read something to the effect that these years - high school - were the best we - students - would ever have and told him that that was the reason. Things like that. He didn't get it, so I elaborated: The oldest high school student, ideally, was eighteen years old. The average American lives to an age of mid-70s. I told him that what that poster was saying to us was that we can live the rest of our lives, an entire half-century, and it wasn't going to get any better than right now. The people, the food, the environment, the experiences, none of them were going to improve over fifty years. That that poster was telling us we can live out the rest of our years on this planet, and nothing we do, nowhere we go, will measure up to this time. I told him that what that poster was telling us was the rest of our lives are just not worth it. He understood, and that's just looking at the next fifty years. Imagine looking out onto infinity with that idea in your head. That sounds rather hellish to me.
If you no longer have to worry, then you are no longer really human. We've established this, I imagine. But if you reach that plane of existence, where you're not even human, then what are you? Do you remember what you once were? Do you even care? Presumably not, as such a care would be nullified in this state of existence. That rather unnerves me though, the thought of actually changing species. I mean, it's not quite like evolution. There, you're a member of the new batch right out the gate, the mutation doesn't happen while you're conscious of your prior state. Again, that I'm thinking this is proof positive I'm human, I suppose.
Steve, you drew the line at belief and not in heaven. That those that do experience satisfaction, the lack of desire and feeling. And those that don't, cease to be. I think my ultimate point here, if any is to be found, is thus: Are the two necessarily mutually exclusive?
something doesn;t jive here. you won;t gamble because you're afraid of losing the bet, right? you imply that you believe in god just in case it turns out to be true. Enough to use it as an argument, at least.
The throwaway lines we use come back to bite us on the ass. No, I didn't become a Christian because of that - and I've made that clear throughout the discussion. You picked one phrase that helps your argument to the exclusion of the rest. It's a popular tack - just look at any debate involving the bible where someone picks out something from Leviticus like, "Thou shalt stone they who blahblahblah" and use it to discredit the entire argument for God.
but is it faith in spite of the fact that you MUST have it? If you have to have faith, and have to believe to get in, how do you know you haven;t just done a good job of tricking yourself into believing that you truly believe.
There are times when I don't have much faith - after all, it's a transitive sort of state. But when I accepted in my heart and with my mind that Jesus died for my sins and made the conscious determination to try to live like him because I believed his teaching, the books were balanced. Right then, at that moment. As for tricking myself into believing that I believe......have you actually read that statement? If I'm completely fooled into thinking that I believe - um, I've met the requirements for belief. It's the same thing.
How many "christians" are just going through the motions "just in case?" they go to church, they follow the rules, but maybe they doubt it a little.....maybe they think ther might be some truth to another religion, too. Is it enough to SAY you believe?
Too many people say the little prayer and start becoming all churchy without ever really giving their lives to Christ, and they are on very, very dangerous ground. It's not up to me to decide who is a Christian and who isn't, though. And it's not up to me to decide who goes where when they die. But Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes to the Father except through me." It's up to each person to decide whether that's true or not. Like I said before, I don't think Jesus was either a liar or insane.
does a christian's faith have to be absolute? what if you're having a "bad faith day" when you happen to die?
If you have accepted Christ, you are already saved. Because of his sacrifice, the penalty for your sin is paid. You lack the power to either save yourself or negate the gift you have accepted. You will go to heaven on a "bad faith day".
i will not accept that a truly good person who does not happen to accept jesus h christ as his savior will fry for eternity. that's ludicrous. can you honestly say you DO believe that? really???
Jesus said it is true. I believe it. Really. Because there is no such thing as a "truly good person". All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. It's the condition of sin that seperates us, not a tally sheet of individual offenses.
That's why I tell people about it. And as ludicrous as it sounds to human ears, it's something set down by the God of the universe. He is jealous, but merciful. So, no, you can't do whatever the hell you want and get away with it. But he gave you an out. Take it if you wish, but if you don't take it, don't blame him. You wanted choice, remember?
Incidentally, the little religious rules that individual denominations set forth are mostly hogwash, IMO. That has nothing to do with salvation though.
Originally posted by lumberjim
i will not accept that a truly good person who does not happen to accept jesus h christ as his savior will fry for eternity. that's ludicrous. can you honestly say you DO believe that? really???
I've always found my Christianity works better if I just apply it to myself. Even as a Christian, I bristle when other Christians attempt to determine my level of faith to size me up for conversion as the door-to-door faith peddlers do.
Sorry to interrupt your debate but that is a bit of an odd point about my fellow Christians that I keep wanting to sand down. Sometimes I think that prostletizers are more concerned with just getting a conversion than in truly instilling the person with Christian values - love your brother, etc. Some Christians act as though there's a cosmic scorecard or as though a conversion is like a closing sale and there's an eternal knife set waiting if you close enough.
I'll say this in conclusion as religious debates are not really my cup of tea. After reading this thread, it is as clear as mountain air how the history of the world is only slightly more than the history of unfilfilled religious ambitions. For me, religious ambitions should be aimed inward and not outward.
For Christians, I wonder sometimes if the focus on converting others is but a distraction from or a procrastination of the substantially more challenging task of making one's self more Christ-like.
You're right Beestie. I hope I"m not coming across as one of the people you describe, because it's the farthest thing from my mind. As far as I know, I've never been responsible for the 'conversion' of anyone. But in the context of a religious discussion, I won't shy away from blabbing my beliefs ad nauseum.[SIZE=1]edited to note: only 3 souls left before I get the toaster oven!!![/SIZE]
Originally posted by mrnoodle I hope I"m not coming across as one of the people you describe...
... only 3 souls left before I get the toaster oven!!!
You don't impress me as that so I hope I didn't inadvertently imply that you did.
My point, really, is that I can't "argue" my faith with someone since its really no different of a choice than paper or plastic only less tangible. Although the importance of the choice is to me very significant, the basis for the choice is largely non-existent.
Toaster Oven! Dude, you must be saving oceans of souls! I'll be lucky to get one of those things that, when you drop it in water, turns into a dinosaur only you can't tell which one or that its even a dinosaur at all. :)
Originally posted by Undertoad
Ghandi was however lacking the right *kind* of faith and therefore, according to your belief system, is currently roasting.
from a 1990 encyclical by John Paul II [Redemptoris Missio]
>>>
The universality of salvation means that it is granted not only to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church. Since salvation is offered to all, it moust be concretely available to all. But it is clear that today, as in the past, many people do not have the opportunity to come to know or accept the Gospel revelation or to enter the Church... For such people salvation in Christ is accessible by by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accomodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit. It enables each person to attain salvation through his or her free cooperation.
>>>
Call it the loophole salvation method. John Paul is saying God reserves the right to save anyone, Catholic or otherwise.
Now I've argued this point with a Catholic who seemed to know lots more Catholic teachings than me, and she pointed out this was not an infallible teaching, and that certain earlier teachings that are infallible spell almost certain damnation for all non-Catholics.
Call me an optimist for siding with my quote, and honestly if I found out that the official teaching was otherwise, it would put more distance between me and the Catholic church.
slarti,
forgive my blasphemous tone, but, the current pope writes in a loophole to make catholicism more pallateable, and it holds water with god? isn't that quote in direct opposition to the one mrnoodle posted?
Call it the loophole salvation method. John Paul is saying God reserves the right to save anyone, Catholic or otherwise.
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
you can't rewrite the rules. not even if you happen to be the pope. or do catholics believe that john paul II gets commumicaes from the almighty? what, he got an evangelical memo clarifiying the rule? Did God's Lawyers write that in as a disclaimer...ie...
[size=1]we reserve the right to make exceptions. not all souls will qualify. contact your local salvation dealer for details. Not available in all areas, restrictions apply. tax and tags additional. [/size]
Originally posted by Beestie
[i]
Toaster Oven! Dude, you must be saving oceans of souls! I'll be lucky to get one of those things that, when you drop it in water, turns into a dinosaur only you can't tell which one or that its even a dinosaur at all. :)
You guys get prizes? I get a one dollar coupon to Mcdonalds for each soul. That's just evil I tell you, I should complain to management.
Originally posted by lumberjim
slarti,
forgive my blasphemous tone, but, the current pope writes in a loophole to make catholicism more pallateable, and it holds water with god? isn't that quote in direct opposition to the one mrnoodle posted?
[/size]
Blasphemous? I've heard worse. Carry on.
Someone's going to have to please point out that quote, I can't find it and skimming the six pages of this thread once is far as I can get without my head imploding.
But look, you've got several groups of people to look at:
-those born before Jesus, are they all damned because they could never hear about an event in the future?
-Those that have never heard of Jesus because they are in isolated geographic places.
-unbaptized babies.
-and finally, those that have heard the Good News (TM) but heard it improperly, poorly, or wrongly so they never did get a chance to accept Jesus the 'right way'.
Is it wrong to argue that since God's salvation is universal there must be a valid way for it to be available to EVERYONE somehow?
Someone's going to have to please point out that quote,
i put the two right there. your summary of the quote you posted, and mrnoodle's scripture quote.
the two quotes are at odds.
Is it wrong to argue that since God's salvation is universal there must be a valid way for it to be available to EVERYONE somehow?
no.
Originally posted by Slartibartfast
But it is clear that today, as in the past, many people do not have the opportunity to come to know or accept the Gospel revelation or to enter the Church...
Not only had Gandhi had the opportunity to know about Christianity, he devoted his life to kicking the Christians out of his country! Not because they were Christians, but still.
Originally posted by Happy Monkey
Not only had Gandhi had the opportunity to know about Christianity, he devoted his life to kicking the Christians out of his country! Not because they were Christians, but still.
Do you mean Gandhi's efforts to free India from the English government? If that is the way you mean, then you are right.
But from what I understand, Gandhi was very tolerant of other religions, and he specifically acted to promote the tolerance between Hindu and Moslem and Christian people in India.
For all I know Gandhi may be frying in hell, but the fact is that I don't know, the issue is between Gandhi and God. The Pope's quote is saying you can't out of hand assume anyone is condemned to hell.
To reconcile my quote with mrnoodles, that salvation is still exclusively through Jesus. The acceptance of him (and the Church) can happen at the moment of death through some unique form of grace granted by God.
It is like those people who live a terrible life but have a deathbed conversion. In a way it looks like a cop-out to say that God would accept such a thing, but give the Big Guy some credit, I bet he can tell a real conversion with full repentance from a fake one.
Originally posted by lumberjim
you can't rewrite the rules. not even if you happen to be the pope. or do catholics believe that john paul II gets commumicaes from the almighty?
that, in point of fact, is exactly what they believe. That the pope is the living mouthpiece of god, able to make infallible edicts concerning matters of faith and practice.
Including the ability to correct and ammend previous "infallible edicts" concerning matters of faith and practice.
-sm
Is it wrong for me to consider all of this to be just about too damn funny?
No. I like watching christians argue doctrine too.
It's okay.
Sometimes I help them.
(When I was in college I used to help members of Campus Crusade for Christ experience their first spiritual crisis. It was their own silly fault for knocking on my door ...)
Originally posted by smoothmoniker
that, in point of fact, is exactly what they believe. That the pope is the living mouthpiece of god, able to make infallible edicts concerning matters of faith and practice.
Including the ability to correct and ammend previous "infallible edicts" concerning matters of faith and practice.
-sm
Actually though if it is infallible, it is infallible forever. You can clarify and interpret all you like, but even the current Pope can't delete previous delcarations.
well, thus the logical contradiction. and thus a strong reason why I'm not catholic.
Also, I'm anit-funny-hat. so there's that.
-sm
Originally posted by wolf
No. I like watching christians argue doctrine too.
It's okay.
Sometimes I help them.
(When I was in college I used to help members of Campus Crusade for Christ experience their first spiritual crisis. It was their own silly fault for knocking on my door ...)
[COLOR=indigo]It's funny you say that, because MY house is the one the Mormon Elders brought the newbs to when they first arrived in the area. If they still had faith when I was done with them, they had to go for a ride in The Box (TM).[/COLOR]
Does Heaven really exist at all? I think that as science and medicine develop further, it will be obvious to most clear thinking people, that what we feel, how we think, and what makes us what we are, is the result of the interactions of millions of cells in our bodies, compounded with our day to day experiences in life. I don't think there is anything mystical or spiritual about it - just plain old biology.
Of course, being human, we'll stick doggedly to our beliefs like super glue, regardless of scientific evidence to the contrary.
But look, you've got several groups of people to look at:
-those born before Jesus, are they all damned because they could never hear about an event in the future?
-Those that have never heard of Jesus because they are in isolated geographic places.
-unbaptized babies.
-and finally, those that have heard the Good News (TM) but heard it improperly, poorly, or wrongly so they never did get a chance to accept Jesus the 'right way'.
Romans 2:14-16 -- Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them. This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
Reader's Digest version - if people haven't heard specifically about Jesus, the gospel, etc., they will be judged according to the law that is written on their heart. I interpret it to mean that God programmed you already. Headhunters with plates in their lips will be judged, but not necessarily by whether or not they know who Jesus was.
A question for slart (or anyone else versed in Catholicism), completely unrelated to the rest of this post.... where, in the bible, is any authority given to the pope to make "infallible" doctrine? Why did Jesus have to die if a mere human has the authority to forgive sin? Why do you have to confess to anyone other than God?
At dinner, when Catholics want to ask their fathers to pass the potatoes, do they have to go through their mothers for permission to ask the fathers? :blunt:
There are several questions here, let me tackle two right now, and leave the rest for a later moment when I have some time to write and think more.
'Why did Jesus have to die if a mere human has the authority to forgive sin? '
That would be putting the cart before the horse. The mere human alone can't forgive sin, the authority comes from higher up. That priest is acting as a representative and physical human stand in for God.
'Why do you have to confess to anyone other than God?'
Call it good psychology. Why do people spend so much on psychologists and psychiatrists to unload things off their mind? People need to vent and get things out, or else things could stay inside and fester. Confessing to another person all the negative shit you do is a part of addressing it, like the Alcoholic who finally admits to others in AA that he has a problem. Once you admit to a problem, you can deal with it and move on. Confessing to God through just prayer is still too much of an internal dialog, there has to be an external human element to the process.
Do you know where hell is?
Do you know where the lake of fire is?
Iff i did not know where i was going would you follow me???
but here is the kicker - the believer risks nothing if he is wrong. if you believe there is an afterlife and then find nothing - what have you lost?
if you are an unbeliever - eternity is at risk. believing that there is no heaven or hell and then be proven wrong??? ouch.
i guess that is why it is called faith. you've got to believe it to see it.
Freedom and control of your life. Religion is to control.
What have you lost, lumberjim? Freedom and control of your life, that's all. The purpose of religion is control.
It seems to me that for heaven to be perfectly peaceful, some restrictions on free will would be necessary. But that seems to diminish the attractiveness of heaven. And if it is possible to have free will and peace in heaven, then why would it not work on Earth?
This points to a basic misconception about the afterlife--that after our physical death we might remain individuals, with the name and the identity we had while alive.
If we think instead of the animating spark of life within us as a small part of a complete, singular universe, then the very idea of our individuality becomes a matter of biological constraints. These counstraints would be undone upon our death, and therefore any illusion of individuality.
We would go to heaven not as individual souls travelling to a cosmic vacation resort, but rather upon our physical death we would simply rejoin the universe we temporarily forgot that we were a part of all along.
At that point, concepts like "free will" no longer have any meaning.
There is no "I" in heaven.
What have you lost, lumberjim? Freedom and control of your life, that's all. The purpose of religion is control.
the purpose of religion is control. I agree. well said.
<-----------ooooo.....12k! damn.
Freedom and control of your life. Religion is to control.
who's talking about religion? i was talking about faith.
I love this question... it just cuts right thru all the bullshit.
If one does not believe in heaven, how can there be or not be freewill?
Oh hell, don't let that stop you. Everyone else is speculating about something they know nothing about. ;)
who's talking about religion? i was talking about faith.
Who is Faith?
If one does not believe in heaven, how can there be or not be freewill?
If the laws of physics (which we still don't understand perfectly) control the behavior of the atoms in our bodies, and the atoms in our bodies control the behavior of our cells, and our cells determine what our brains do, then everything we do is determined by the way the natural environment was in motion when we were born. Our whole lives were mapped out for us before we were born. Not by a higher power, but mapped out the same way a ball will fall to the ground if you release it from your hand.
Or the other view is that we are sentient. That our consciousness is influenced by our bodies, but is separate from our bodies, and that we can make choices independent from the influences of our bodies.
If the laws of physics (which we still don't understand perfectly) control the behavior of the atoms in our bodies, and the atoms in our bodies control the behavior of our cells, and our cells determine what our brains do,
You left out a step right here. "... if our brain is the same thing as our sentient mind ... ". That's the step I take issue with.
then everything we do is determined by the way the natural environment was in motion when we were born.
Two words come to mind when dealing with consciousness.
Indeterminacy and
emergence.
You left out a step right here. "... if our brain is the same thing as our sentient mind ... ". That's the step I take issue with.
Unless you are willing to state that a "magical" factor is necessary to produe a human mind, then it is 100% certain that the natural laws of physics determine what we are.
Now, in order to claim that the human mind is a result of "magical" or "supernatural" qualities (which there is no way of avoiding if you want to claim that we are not a result of the same mundane natural laws that produce everything else) one must assume an attitude of supremely self-satisfied, human-centric egotism.
not magic. abstract. the mind exists in abstraction. the brain exists in nature.
not magic. abstract. the mind exists in abstraction. the brain exists in nature.
I would say that the "abstract" operates on a level of nature that we haven't deciphered yet.
That doesn't excuse these "abstract" qualities from behaving according to deterministic laws. It just means that we don't understand the interactions that produce them, therefore they appear outside the realm of determinism--when viewed with our limited perceptive tools.
something doesn;t jive here. you won;t gamble because you're afraid of losing the bet, right? you imply that you believe in god just in case it turns out to be true. Enough to use it as an argument, at least.
but is it faith in spite of the fact that you MUST have it? If you have to have faith, and have to believe to get in, how do you know you haven;t just done a good job of tricking yourself into believing that you truly believe. How many "christians" are just going through the motions "just in case?" they go to church, they follow the rules, but maybe they doubt it a little.....maybe they think ther might be some truth to another religion, too. Is it enough to SAY you believe?
I feel as strongly as any bible thumper does about my beliefs, yet, as I said, there is a small kernel of doubt. always. maybe the millions of christians are right, and this sucks, but this is how it is, and i'm going to burn in hell. therefoer, my "faith" in what I believe is not absolute. does a christian's faith have to be absolute? what if you're having a "bad faith day" when you happen to die?
I hope this illustrates to you the ridiculous nature of these little rules most conventional religions employ. Live as a good christian, in as much as it makes you stronger and wiser, but dont tell me im gonna burn cuz i dont like your flavor of ice cream.
i will not accept that a truly good person who does not happen to accept jesus h christ as his savior will fry for eternity. that's ludicrous. can you honestly say you DO believe that? really???
I am in agreement fully. I have had posted on these kind of subjects in the past and frankly I'm burn't out on them. You have said it all so completely for me that even if I wanted to add something substantial I'd just be making a position which would seem rather redundant since your statements have embodied everything I believe anyway. Esp. the bold font part.
I can't tell you how many times those same thoughts have gone round in my heart and mind.
Good subject to read other peoples views too though!
That doesn't excuse these "abstract" qualities from behaving according to deterministic laws. It just means that we don't understand the interactions that produce them, therefore they appear outside the realm of determinism--when viewed with our limited perceptive tools.
Except for all those things in physics that we already know about that don't behave according to deterministic laws. What if our free will is subject to quantum probabilities? Not only is it not pre-determined, it
can't be determined from the outside... which sounds a lot like "free" to me.
Quantum mechanics is often pseudo-scientifically referenced as a cure for all of western science's wrong-thinking; but I think it makes an even worse case for free will than determinism. How do fuzzy, random possibilities translate into a cohesive "free" will?
fuzzy, random possibilities
when viewed with our limited perceptive tools
Cute. I'm operating on YOUR assumption that "we already know about" things that "don't behave according to deterministic laws."
If quantum possibilities are not deterministic, then they are random. Deterministic on a level that we don't understand yet is still deterministic--and was already included in my definition of deterministic.
The two main interpretations of quantum mechanics are the multiple universes theory and the must be observed before it pops into place theory. Neither one, taken to it's logical conclusion, produces a free will.
Your mom is deterministic.
I got somethin' you can make a determination on right here.
it's fuzzy and random, too
Your mom is deterministic.
I think this is the only place and time we'll have free will, and that the development of our spirits will be determined in this life if at all,
and that every dimension of our existence hereafter will simply be a progression of our souls to infinity... forever.
So we won't have free will but will always be developing in some way.
Heaven as a cloudy place with angel wings is cute, but it would get dull after a while I think.
This is one long thread to read through. :) :cool:
There are a ton of thoughts I'd like to respond to, but it would take three evenings. :3_eyes: :D
First, to answer the threads question in a way that hasn't yet been done- Yes, there will be be free will in Heaven.
But the inhabitants will be willingly exercising their free will within the boundaries of God's overall best will for them.
This should be pretty easy to do since God is a God of Love and His best will for them is what will give them the greatest, most joyous life possible, I would think.
But it won't be strumming a harp for all eternity in one long Praisefest!
That is not a biblical teaching at all, anywhere, that Heaven is a place where singing praises for all eternity is the main gig.
In fact where will christians exist after the New Creation? (see Revelations 21-22)
What will those who have learned to subject their will to God's will do throughout eternity since its not playing a harp and singing continuously?
Thank God for that! :cool:
Let me throw out another applicable thought that hasn't come up yet.
What is the difference between "believe", and "know" as applied to a personal religious "faith"?
Christians often fail to use "know" when it for some actually applies and can more clearly define their thoughts and experiences.
Ex.- if I know that a specific berry will make one sick from past personal experience, how does that compare to someones belief that the berry won't make one sick who hasn't experienced eating the berry?
What is the difference between "believe", and "know" as applied to a personal religious "faith"?
It's a matter of courteous interaction, and a way of shielding oneself from criticism. "I know", is perceived to be both arrogant and assailable. "I believe", shows humility and is wholly unassailable in our society. Most of us say we believe (that there is, or is not a god) when in truth most of us know (that there is, or is not, a god).
I hear you Dana and I appreciate where you are coming from, thank-you. :cool: From your answer I think I need to make a signature about this. ;)
I have learned that we can best understand one another in the "far from perfect" thing called communicating if we are as detailed and specific as possible with each other in what we say. It eliminates as much misunderstanding as possible.
I see, and use the word "know" in my talking with someone when it applies not as a word of carrying any emotion or attitude; but rather one of conveying a detailed, specific difference in meaning from "believe". There is a huge, nay "humongous" difference between the two words.
Each word carries a definitive difference in steps of degree. the same as the scientific steps of: (question, postulate, theorize, proof, know)
ex.- (question, think, believe, know)
If there is no chance of any one of us being able to know a specific something, I could see all of us not using the word because it wouldn't apply. But it is possible to not confer any attitude while using it.
I am old enough and have experienced many things enough to know more than many, and less than many others about all sorts of things. True of all of us to varying degrees.
Isn't that why we enjoy these forums? I love to learn from those around me, and if I can give something useful back in return we are twice blessed as I look it. I know I am. :D ;)
Oh yea, I'll be the first to say that in using the word "know" with someone you are close to, and who knows you well; they have an obvious ability to understand you and how well you can correctly perceive reality.
Unfortunately here on the internet, we can only somewhat correctly understand each others honesty, and abilities to reason logically. But I still wouldn't want us to lose the value of the specific, detailed, difference in definitions. We can do our best by gleaning what we can from all of a member's posts. Plus we can always ask in the forums, or pm one another.
So Ruminator, how bout this heat?
Its been a weird summer season here in NE Ohio thats for sure Bullitt. :D
In our area just about all you see are dried out and dying grass in everyone's yards. :o
How 'bout where your at?
(way off topic) ;)
Yeah same here, and the route 8/I-77 construction doesn't make the commute very much fun either :D
Oh my gosh Bullitt! I know exactly where you are talking about. It a screwed up mess alright! :thepain:
I have a good friend who lives just north of there just off Rt.8 on the west side in a big apartment complex a couple miles north of I-271. :cool:
Just looking at the thread title, without reading any of the first nine pages, I'd say probably not -- unless your shade particularly desires free will. Too, there'd be the question of whether or not it would really be needed, as free will frankly needs a need to change something to wreak its, well, will.
Is Willie Free? Free Willie?
The Muslim answer to your question is Yes, there is free will in heaven. Everyone will be the best versions of themselves, meaning there will be no hate, jealousy, pride, etc... which is how peace will be maintaned. The only beings lacking free will are angels. (I think Christians believe the devil is a fallen angel named Samiel, but Muslims believe him to be a Jin[spirit])