Continuing the religious debate from over in IOD....

As we were saying....;)

Shattered said

Something MADE those shadows, though, and while the shadows were not the totality of what was out there, they were made by something DID exist in reality.

Spirituality is like that...we can only see shadows. You're insisting that the shadow itself does not exist.

If I see a shadow of a flower, and believe that is the totality of the flower, I may not be entirely correct in that belief, but it doesn't mean that the flower doesn't exist. It merely means that I have not yet grasped the totality of the flower's existence, only a limited part.

It seems that you are comfortable only with what you can experience with your senses, and are thus closing yourself off to other experiences. It's your choice to do that. If contemplating something greater than yourself makes you uncomfortable, that's your issue. But others, INCLUDING Plato, DID believe in one or more gods, ie, a conscious creator, and merely because you can't prove it to your satisfaction does not mean that it does not exist, and doesn't mean that those who DO believe in such a being are being silly.

And I think that's a good place to start :)

You're pagan, right? I'm a Christian, but I don't dispute the power that resonates from different aspects of the natural world - even the less...obvious...energies. But I don't worship them. I worship the one that made them. So we're both right, but I'm more right :king: Discuss.

You'll get as many answers to this as pagans you ask ...

Pagans don't worship trees and rocks and streams either.

We do honor the particular energies of these places and their essences and the variety of spirits which inhabit them. But not worship them in the sense you seem to mean here.

Pagans worship multiple dieties, just as the Christians honor their one god. The forms that the relationship to diety, the ceremonies of honoring and the times of such vary from tradition to tradition. There are pagans who, in addition to the many personifications of the gods, also offer reverence to "The One" ... or a primal creator energy which stands above the goddess and the god.

The pagan sense of the word "worship" also is different. It's not the unquestioning obedience of the Christianized version of the same word, but rather is closer in meaning to "offering with honor and respect." We do not need to fear our gods in order to love them.

But do pagans ask for the intervention of their deities in their daily lives, or do they just pay ritual homage to them? That would affect the relationship a great deal. You don't have to fear something that lacks the power to influence you in any meaningful way.

On the other hand, a god with real power would be worthy of fear and unquestioning obedience, particularly if that god had specifically requested it from his creation. BTW, the 'fear' I'm referring to is more akin to a deep sense of awe than to 'omg please don't kill me i don't wanna die' fear.

Like I said, I'm aware of the energies you refer to. But I'm equally aware, in the same real sense, of the truth of the Creator, and the inspired nature of the bible as his word. To tie it back to ShatteredSoul's comment, once I'm aware of this truth, I can't ignore it. For me, to simply pay respects to the physical world around me (including it's mystical/spiritual component) is missing the boat. It's akin to only drinking the foam on top of the beer. The good part is underneath the foam, dude.

Actually, I believe I will go have a beer right now :beer:

quote:
If I see a shadow of a flower, and believe that is the totality of the flower, I may not be entirely correct in that belief, but it doesn't mean that the flower doesn't exist. It merely means that I have not yet grasped the totality of the flower's existence, only a limited part.


What if you're actually looking at the shadow of something entirely different that looks like the shadow of a flower. A tad tenuous to base your life around isn't it? Hey! That cloud looks like a flower.

In the end I'm with troubleshooter, I'm not going to base my life around shadows and ideas, while there is nothing solid I'll err on the side of caution and work with what I know, anything else is opening yourself up to irrational thought.




And that's just the point. Even if you don't know what is making the shadow, you can't say that what has created the shadow does not itself exist, merely because you can't prove WHAT is making the shadow.

Also, one cannot unilaterally say that spiritual thought is irrational. We may not be able to prove it, but you can't prove it's nonexistence, either. You can scientifically speculate on something that you can't measure or sense, but until you can say for a certainty that there is not an intelligence/deity out there, it's just as much of a theory as believing it is.

And if you were erring on the side of caution, you'd be a believer ;)

Originally posted by mrnoodle
But do pagans ask for the intervention of their deities in their daily lives, or do they just pay ritual homage to them? That would affect the relationship a great deal. You don't have to fear something that lacks the power to influence you in any meaningful way.

On the other hand, a god with real power would be worthy of fear and unquestioning obedience, particularly if that god had specifically requested it from his creation. BTW, the 'fear' I'm referring to is more akin to a deep sense of awe than to 'omg please don't kill me i don't wanna die' fear.

Like I said, I'm aware of the energies you refer to. But I'm equally aware, in the same real sense, of the truth of the Creator, and the inspired nature of the bible as his word. To tie it back to ShatteredSoul's comment, once I'm aware of this truth, I can't ignore it. For me, to simply pay respects to the physical world around me (including it's mystical/spiritual component) is missing the boat. It's akin to only drinking the foam on top of the beer. The good part is underneath the foam, dude.

Actually, I believe I will go have a beer right now :beer:

Wolf is right on with what she said. Of course, there are variations among pagans. For instance, I believe that there is only one Deity, and all the others are merely aspects of a single being--just as we play many roles in life, with many aspects, so does Deity.

The thing is, all religions, in my opinion, believe in the same Being. The only differences are names and rituals.

With Paganism, you are pretty much required to question, and to take responsibility for your actions. There's no devil to blame anything on. there's no hell. We don't fear our Deity because we don't believe that they CARE which path we follow, as long as we walk with them. There are no threats or intolerance on the part of God/dess.

I was talking about this with Sidhe, as a matter of fact, and she sent me a poem she wrote about eight years ago, kind of a poem to the God/dess. I'm going to pass it on. I hope she doesn't mind. I thought it described God/dess well.:)


The Call of The ONE

I call My children, all, to Me;
My face, My form, not fixed but free;
What each needs is Who each sees
In the form that brings them peace...

Listen, for I call to THEE...

My Pagan paths wind round and round;
The Christians choose My narrow ground;
In wind and rain you hear My voice,
How you see Me is your choice.

Whether church or forest, whether Solitary flame;
Whether wine and host, or whether cakes and ale;
No matter how you seek Me, your Paths are all the same:
My love, My face, is what you seek, and NONE shall ever fail!

copyright 1997
R.A. Silverwind

Oh, you poor misguided fools and your puny deities. When will learn the the name of the True God is Undertoad. Now give me an amen and pass the collection (paypal) plate.

The ladies auxiliary will be serving coffee and their famous buns in the vestibule.;)

He's right you know. About those famous buns.

Ok, if you absolutely, postively have to put a lable on it it would be something along the lines of *deep breath*:

Provisional agnostic non-theist: recognizes unexplained events but is unwilling to accept unqualified explainations. Is willing to wait for a more qualified position to come around.

I mean think about it. If every group has the same degree and source of proof, we call them hallucinations now, they all stand the same chance of being wrong. I'd rather be wrong on my terms.

Now a question. How am I closing myself off to experience?

Other people are able to experience these things so they aren't beyond the ken of human experience, and thusly should be quantifiable, recordable, etc.

There ARE unexplained phenomena* out there, things that occur over and over and can be observed and studied. So far the phenomena listed in the various religious texts aren't able to be studied. Give me something to look at and I'll see if I can help.

* Gravitic lensing occurs in space with no visible celestial body to cause it. The new theories of Dark Matter and Dark Energy are growing from that. A whole substrate of existance that effects our world but is thus far invisible. Invisible Clowns from Dimension X anyone?

You're missing my entire point, TS. I DON'T CARE if you believe that FRENCH TOAST explains the universe.

My point WAS, you cannot unilaterally deem someone silly for believing in something you cannot disprove. Well, you CAN, but that's only your opinion. That's it. Not law. Not truth. Opinion.

When I said that you're closing yourself off from other experiences, I was referring to the fact that you seem to be very adamant about control. You don't appear to be comfortable with things or situations that you feel you can't control, and I'm sure that not only applies to yourself, but to your environment as well.

I would venture to guess that the less control you perceive having over an experience or situation, the less likely you are to engage in it or give attention to it.

It was just an observation made from the tone of your posts. It's MY opinion. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

Originally posted by mrnoodle
But do pagans ask for the intervention of their deities in their daily lives, or do they just pay ritual homage to them? That would affect the relationship a great deal. You don't have to fear something that lacks the power to influence you in any meaningful way.

I don't see why a Christian would ask for intervention from God. Wouldn't He already be doing the right thing?

Originally posted by Happy Monkey
I don't see why a Christian would ask for intervention from God. Wouldn't He already be doing the right thing?

Yes. But if you ask for intervention from God, you are demonstrating faith, and God rewards faith. The idea of pre-ordination gets debated a lot in Christian circles (and like most religious debate, gets nowhere). The upshot is this. While God knows what's going to happen, he gives us the option to change our circumstances at any time. He also reserves the right to change circumstances for his own reasons.

It's hard to explain.

Originally posted by mrnoodle
Yes. But if you ask for intervention from God, you are demonstrating faith, and God rewards faith. The idea of pre-ordination gets debated a lot in Christian circles (and like most religious debate, gets nowhere). The upshot is this. While God knows what's going to happen, he gives us the option to change our circumstances at any time. He also reserves the right to change circumstances for his own reasons.

It's hard to explain.

provisional pre-determinism?

Kinda. The predetermination part is still hanging me up.

On a side note, I was looking at the proverbs of Solomon. No matter what religion you are, these rock. I burden you with some now :D

"Better to meet a bear robbed of her cubs, than a fool in his folly."

"A fool's lips bring him strife, and his mouth invites a beating."

"A fool finds no pleasure in understanding, but delights in airing his own opinions." :blush:

"Better to live on a corner of the roof than share a house with a quarrelsome wife." :haha:

I can't think of anything that would be cooler than sitting back in some palace, with Solomon scowling down to his scribes and uttering profundities all day. James Earl Jones should read them, or Chuck Heston, if he's got enough of his wits about him still.

quote:Originally posted by mrnoodle
But do pagans ask for the intervention of their deities in their daily lives, or do they just pay ritual homage to them? That would affect the relationship a great deal. You don't have to fear something that lacks the power to influence you in any meaningful way.

On the other hand, a god with real power would be worthy of fear and unquestioning obedience, particularly if that god had specifically requested it from his creation. BTW, the 'fear' I'm referring to is more akin to a deep sense of awe than to 'omg please don't kill me i don't wanna die' fear.

-------------------------------

Ok, lessee....maybe I can clear some of the belief stuff up, at least as far as my pagan beliefs go.

Our Deity is more of a Mother/Father figure. They'll help if you really need it, but for the most part, they let you go your way and experience life. I've asked God/dess for help, and I've gotten it, but only when the need was great. Otherwise, it was, "Do it yourself, kiddo."

God/dess does influence me in a meaningful way. I find it much easier to relate to a Deity who doesn't have jealousy issues and homicidal tendencies.

And as before, paganism almost demands that you question. God/dess gave us brains for a reason, and that was so we would be able to reason things out. You'll never catch a pagan sending their paycheck to some shyster who claims God/dess is gonna take him if he doesn't get a million dollars. A pagan would wave and say, "Have fun in the Summerland! See you next time around!"

God/dess doesn't TELL us what to do. God/dess has put forth one rule, and either you follow it or you don't. S/He expects you to take responsibility for yourself and act right without threats. If you don't, it'll bite you in the ass, eventually. No threats of hell. You'll get flicked in the head (figuratively speaking) in this life for not playing nice. It's kind of like, "If you do THIS, this will happen." No discussion. But it's a relatively immediete reward or punishment, in the here and now, not after you die.

At least that's what I believe. Others may have variations on this, or believe completely differently.

Originally posted by mrnoodle
But do pagans ask for the intervention of their deities in their daily lives, or do they just pay ritual homage to them? That would affect the relationship a great deal. You don't have to fear something that lacks the power to influence you in any meaningful way.

Yes, pagans do ask for divine intervention in their daily lives. However it's also understood that it is incumbent upon the individual to do the physical work necessary to make the magickal happen. Our gods are not the divine version of Santa Claus that some Christians seems to petition for all good things to fall into their laps without effort. I also realize that not ALL Christians are this way, but there are enough that it's a common perception. "God will provide" does not mean that the lottery will be won or the welfare applied for will go through ... it means that you will bust your ass, fill out applications, go to interviews, and get a job to support yourself.

Originally posted by Shattered Soul
[SNIP]

And as before, paganism almost demands that you question. God/dess gave us brains for a reason, and that was so we would be able to reason things out. You'll never catch a pagan sending their paycheck to some shyster who claims God/dess is gonna take him if he doesn't get a million dollars. A pagan would wave and say, "Have fun in the Summerland! See you next time around!"

Unfortunately, there are a lot of fresh converts ... well meaning, but clueless, happy people who do fall for this kind of crap.

One of the BNPs (Big Name Pagans) recently started this bullshit. Okay, he's not doing the full Oral Roberts "God will call me home if you don't donate" schtick, but it's as close as I've seen ... a LOT of people HAVE donated, as individuals and organizations, to deal with this guy's own financial mismanagement and issues. Two organizations I belong to, one for Pagan Emergency Services (police/fire/ems) Professionals, and another for Pagan Nurses have both have discussions regarding this situation. The Nurses were on the verge of sending money, but luckily a vote of the membership of the organization blocked that, but they did vote for providing information and assistance on how to negotiate the maze of medical assistance applications and such. The emergency services folk didn't buy into the cyberbegging attempt.

It's embarrasing, frankly.

He even leaves the door open to ANOTHER attempt on this NEXT year: "although the original emergency is over, there is no guarantee that it won’t occur again every winter."

[edited out because I have no idea what the hell I was talking about]

Isaac Bonewits?!!!? *aghast*:eek:

...I don't know what to say. I'm utterly speechless.

But for that matter, I don't know what in the hell you're talking about, either.

To salvage myself, I had made some un-witty comment about Oral Roberts-type charlatans invading the pagan camp. Essentially that those people are useless no matter what religion they claim to promote.

That's actually a very insightful statement. You should have left it stand.

Actually, because so much of the focus of pagan practice is on doing things for yourself, it's even MORE embarrassing when one of the BNPs (big name pagans) starts the begging thing.

We have enough trouble trying to deal with the public relations dilemmas wrought by John Edward (the channeller, not the politician), Mad Mad House, and Miss Cleo type psychics.

It's tough being the new old religions on the block ...

[COLOR=indigo]**gasp** You mean....

"Crossing Over" is a fake?

[/COLOR] :eek:

Originally posted by OnyxCougar
[COLOR=indigo]**gasp** You mean....

"Crossing Over" is a fake?

[/COLOR] :eek:

No, he's not a fake, he's a liar.

His cold reading skills are amazing.

Well, someone who lies about what they do is a fake. He's a fake and a liar. And I suspect there's more than cold reading going on. I've heard reports of interviewers/microphones in the audience line to get in. There are also severe edits done, since the actual session is much longer than 1/2 hour.

Yeah, Shermer and Randi have busted this guy wide open, him and Van Pragh, but it always gets edited out.

Between editing and people so stupid that they're only capable of "remember the hits and forget the misses,"even less than an hour ago, you can't win.

Originally posted by Happy Monkey
I don't see why a Christian would ask for intervention from God. Wouldn't He already be doing the right thing?

Normally, yes. There are times I like to nap though and sometimes bad things happen.

Sometimes I'm watching TV and accidently let bad things happen too.

I've already cleared my schedule for super Tuesday though, this election cant get fucked up. No need to worry this time.

;)