A strange and terrible weekend
Sorry for the long post, but it was a long weekend....
The strangeness started last Thursday... The company I work for suddenly decided that they were going to shut down for the Christmas season to save a few bucks, so all employees had to take whatever paid vacation they have, and borrow against the next year's vacation time if necessary to cover the two weeks. Strange, and unexpected.
The strangeness continued on Saturday... I'm a calm, reasonable, friendly person who is not known as a trouble maker... But one way to push my buttons is to call me a liar, to question my integrity. On Saturday, I was waiting in line for the Return of the King with my wife, my sister, my and sister's boyfriend, when I stepped out of line to grab us some snacks. When I tried to return to the line, I was stopped by a theater manager who told me that nobody could go past that point, even if they had friends in line beyond there, and that I would have to wait at the end. I asked to at least go inform my friends of the situation, and he refused. He said "Why don't you just go to the end of the line like I told you to?"
"Why don't you exhibit some good customer service and let me go tell my party what's going on?" Again, he refused.
I told him that my wife was up there, and to the two pimply teenagers taking tickets beside him, he said "Well, his story just gets better and better, doesn't it?"
At this insinuation that I was lying, I bristled, and pushed past him. "Come, let me introduce you to my wife, you son of a bitch," I suggested helpfully.
He followed me, and when we arrived, he asked my wife, "Do you know this man?" When she responded that I was her husband, he said "Fine." He turned to me and said "You need to learn to behave yourself in public, sir," and turned to walk away. He stopped however, and seemed upset, when I suggested that he kiss my ass. "Ok," he said, "Let's go. Refund."
I looked him in the eye and said "If you want me to leave, you'll have to force me." As the line finally started moving into the theater, he scurried off to fetch the "police." We all sat in the theater for a few minutes, waiting for the movie to start, before he showed up again with two mall security guards in tow. He walked down my aisle, and stood next to me, and asked if I wanted to apologize for my remarks, as the security gaurds stood with their hands on their hips nearby. I told him he'd have my apology if I had his for insinuating that I was a liar. He claimed that he implied no such thing, and I laughed out loud.
"We're both adults here, and you know you insinuated that I was lying. If you want to apologize, I'll do the same." Everyone around us in the theater at this point was yelling at the manager for him to lay off. It was funny. So he finally apologized, I did the same, and I wished him a delightful, merry Christmas. What a shit eater. My wife had never seen me tell someone off so... colorfully.
But that wasn't all that happened this weekend... Also on Saturday my cellphone rings, and it is my mother. She warns that she does not have good news. Firstly, one of my aunts (her brother's wife) has died because of a brain tumor. Her passing was not entirely unexpected, but unhappy nonetheless... and it was her birthday. My mom then told me that on top of that, police and paramedics responded to a call at another aun't house (this one my dad's sister), when she dialled 911 but didn't speak into the phone. Police found her unconscious, not breathing. Her heart had stopped after a massive heart attack, but the paramedics defibrillated her, and got hear breathing again. She's been in intensive care, and has not regained consciousness at all since then, despite a couple attempts to awaken her. They're going to try again today.
Ugh. At least I don't have to be at work.
[size=1]Edit:Fixed a couple grammar errors[/size]
Congratulations on how you handled the movie incident.
Plus, my sympathy for you and your family on your loss.
When did companies get the right to mandate use of vacation? My company is doing this sort of thing as well. But at least they warn us at the beginning of the year.
[COLOR=indigo]I think there's too many bad vibes out there in the world this holdiay season.
Steve being sick, heroine overdoses, my Ex husband's granpa dying, your aunts.... 2 earthquakes in 2 weeks...
I hope it gets better soon...for all of us....[/COLOR]
I hate it when people in service jobs don't have a clue about customer service. I'd have told him to kiss the brown eye and laughed in the faces of the rent-a-cops.
I think you gave the prick maybe even a little less than he deserved, HP. Well handled.
Condolences on your family illness and passing. Believe me, I understand (as I ponder spending Xmas Eve in a hospital with my son and without the rest of my family).
Yeah, I know, I'm Pagan, but Xmas is so ingrained in our culture, I still celebrate it. In fact, I celebrate if from about the 22nd/23rd right on through New Year!
Originally posted by Elspode
I think you gave the prick maybe even a little less than he deserved, HP.
I am writing a nice, concerned letter to send to the Cinemark corporate offices about this event... we had the forethought to get the manager's full name. I think I can manage to get the chap in some hot water. I'll post the text of the letter when I finish it, and see if anyone has any suggestions to offer before I send it.
Sucks that you have to spend XMas in the hospital 'Spode. I'm glad to hear that your son is improving though.
Tell them you were buying popcorn and when their wallets skip a beat they'll send you free tickets.;)
Originally posted by Elspode
........... (as I ponder spending Xmas Eve in a hospital with my son and without the rest of my family).
We'll be there Els, all of this family.:)
The customer service ethic is dead. To me that says a lot about our society in general, especially when abuse of power trickles down to jerkoff theater workers,
holy crapwagon H.P.! congrats on the cinemark prick and condolences with your family. i hope everything works out!
man. a lot of us have had a down month(s), myself included. i've said it once, and i'll say it again. keep your chin up. things will work out........
Ok, here's the letter I wrote and will send to Cinemark corporate tomorrow (kinda long):
Dear sir/madam,
My name is Alan Bellows, and my wife and I have been long-time patrons of Cinemark theaters. Until a recent unpleasant experience with a manager of a local Cinemark theater, we watched movies exclusively at a Cinemark theater about twenty minutes away from our home, at the Provo Towne Center in Provo, UT. My wife and I, along with two other couples, attend about 2-3 movies per month as a group; and as a result of Saturday’s events, we will now take all of our movie-going business to other theater chains.
This letter is not intended to win me free movie vouchers, discount tickets, or anything of the like. All I seek is reparations for unjustified personal insults done to me by a Cinemark management employee. Short of a personal apology from Troy Taylor and his immediate superior, I can assure you that there is nothing which can draw my business back to a Cinemark theater whenever I have a possible alternative.
I would like to relate the incident which occurred at the Cinemark theater last Saturday, the 20th of December 2003:
My wife, our friends, and I had arrived over an hour early to our 7:50pm viewing of Return of the King, but the line was already stretched far down the theater hallway. We got in line together, and visited amongst ourselves for some time. After a while, I left the line to go get some food at the snack bar for my wife and I. When I attempted to enter the hallway to rejoin my wife and friends, I was stopped by a manager, Troy Taylor, and told that I had to stand in a new line, outside of the hallway area.
I explained to Mr. Taylor that my friends were expecting me to return, and he asked “Do you think your friends will save you a seat?” I said that they probably would, but if I would not be allowed to rejoin them, I should at least be allowed to inform them of the situation. The manager refused to allow me to do so. He said “Why don't you just go to the end of the line like I told you to?”
Though I was annoyed at this, I responded to Mr. Taylor with the civil, but direct response “Why don’t you show some good customer service, and let me go tell my friends what is going on?” He directed me again to the end of the line, at which time I told him that my wife was among my friends, waiting for me to return.
At this, he turned to one of the young men taking tickets beside him, and said “Oh, so now the story changes! His story just keeps getting better and better, doesn't it?” Not only was his statement very condescending, but in saying it, he also strongly implied that I was lying to him. Until this point, I had been polite, because I am a polite, even-tempered person who simply wished to enjoy a movie in the company of friends. However, questioning one’s integrity by calling them a liar is shameful customer service, and will upset even the most patient of individuals, such as myself.
I asked him, “Excuse me, are you calling me a liar?” He made a snide comment denying the accusation, but the fact that he hadn’t used the word “Liar” didn’t alter the substance of his statement. At this point, I walked past him, and said “Come, let me introduce you to my wife.” I also added an expletive from which I’ll spare you, suffice it to say I was upset at Troy’s insinuation. He followed me into the area where my wife and friends were waiting in line. I introduced him to my wife as we arrived.
“Do you know this man?” he asked my wife. Confused, she answered that I was her husband. “So he’s your husband?” Again, bewildered, she answered an affirmative. I was becoming more agitated, because now he was not only rudely grilling my wife, who was unaware of what was going on, but in asking her repeatedly, he was once again suggesting that I was lying about her relationship with me. He turned to me and said something to the effect of, “You need to learn to behave yourself in public, sir,” and turned to walk away. I responded in turn that he needed to learn not to accuse his customers of lying, and he said “I never called you a liar, and that’s the end of it.”
Having been provoked by the multiple implications that I was a liar, his condescending tone, and the rude treatment of my wife, I said “Kiss my ass” as he walked away. At this point he asked me to leave the theater, and I refused, so he asked if I wanted him to go get the “police.” I told him that he was welcome to do so if he liked. While he was away, the line began moving, and we were seated in the theater.
Mr. Taylor did appear in the theater some ten minutes later, with two mall security guards in tow. He quickly located me, and walked down the row of seats, and stood in front of my wife, who was sitting beside me. He asked loudly “Do you want to apologize, or do you want these officers to escort you from the building?”
I responded with “I will apologize to you, if you apologize for calling me a liar.” He again denied that he had ever done so. I said “Look, we’re both adults here, and we both know that you insinuated that I was a liar. I will apologize for my behavior if you apologize for yours.” Because Troy was being so loud, the exchange had caught the attention of people several rows behind us and in front of us. The other theater patrons were chiming in with comments for Mr. Taylor to “lay off” of me, and to leave me alone. He ignored these suggestions.
He continued to deny the insinuation, but eventually offered an incomplete apology, in an insincere manner, to the effect of “I apologize if you misunderstood what I was saying.” To end the unpleasant exchange, I opted to accept this apology, and apologized in return. He added “If you can’t learn to behave yourself, you won’t be welcome here again.” My wife mentioned to him that this was going to be our last visit to his theater, given the events of the evening. At this point Mr. Taylor departed, and I wished him a good day and merry Christmas. Once he was gone the other theater-goers, people who I did not know and who had no part in the exchange itself, shared their thoughts on the converstaion with me, with comments such as “That guy must have been picked on in high school,” etc. It clearly had been seen by most patrons as an unjustified action against me. To those who had heard the exchange, I apologized for the disruption.
I concede that I behaved inappropriately, and used some rude language when addressing Troy Taylor, but not before he provoked me by being rude, condescending, and questioning my integrity. What should have been a simple compromise, allowing me to go let my friends know that I would rejoin them soon, was turned into a scene in the corridor, another in the theater, and resulted in dozens of patrons being annoyed at Mr. Taylor’s behavior, and your theater’s loss of six individuals’ future business. If Troy and his immediate superior are willing to offer me a sincere, personal apology, then we will be willing to resume our patronage at your theaters in the future. Otherwise, my friends and I are perfectly willing to enjoy our movies at the theaters for competing chains. There are many theaters which are just as close to our home as that in the Provo Towne Center, and some in fact closer.
Whether or not your management decides to grant this apology, you should at least be aware of the shameful customer service exhibited by your theater’s manager, Troy Taylor, and realize that he is incompetent to the point that he has now driven several individuals’ future business away from your entire chain of theaters. Thank you for your attention.
Sincerely,
J. Alan Bellows
(phone number, address, etc)
Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
Too long.:(
It's just under three pages, printed. I wanted to recount the entire event so that I could not be accused of leaving out key details. Hopefully they'll read the whole thing, it's much easier to read in it's printed form.
On another note, my aunt still did not regain consciousness today... the doctors are now guessing that it will be a couple of days before she wakes up at all. Hopefully she WILL wake up.
I think it is complete, and its length shows your dutiful effort to be fair and accurate in your relation of the story. With all due respect worthy of his humanity and stature, I disagree with Bruce that it is overlong.
Please keep us posted on your aunt's status. Prayers going out for her and your family.
Good letter, HP. Even if they do nothing, you have made your position quite clear.
And sometimes, often when you least expect it, things DO change in response to customer complaints.
Hopefully you enjoyed the movie despite all the nonsense which preceded it.
And if you ever do return to Cinemark ... smuggle snacks.
Big purses are a GOOD thing.
Originally posted by wolf
smuggle snacks
"Snacks?" Hah! Wee little "snacks" are for sissies. My brother and I, on two occasions, have smuggled pairs of large pizzas into a movie, just for the sport of it. It's big fun, and you get some interesting reactions from fellow movie-goers when they smell pizza and see the bounty that has been secreted into the theater. Har!
IF the letter gets read passed the first page, it'll be by a bored secretary. Business executives won't read anything longer than 1 page, unless it comes from higher up.
Originally posted by OnyxCougar
[COLOR=indigo]I think there's too many bad vibes out there in the world this holdiay season.
[/COLOR]
I was thinking the same thing.
Three pages will be helpful when they fire him and he starts a lawsuit. They may not read all of it now but it'll be useful in the long run.
Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
IF the letter gets read passed the first page, it'll be by a bored secretary. Business executives won't read anything longer than 1 page, unless it comes from higher up.
[COLOR=indigo]Yes, but in MANY cases, that bored secretary will bring something written in a lucid, polite, and coherent manner to the attention of "da boss." I worked in the office of the president for a national credit card company for over a year, and the "You shitbags stole money from me" letter was ALWAYS given the standard response, while a letter like the one above garnered immediate "personal attention" of the President. It's like that at my present job, as well.
I will bend over backward to help someone who approaches me respectfully, and I'll stonewall those that curse and yell. Every time.[/COLOR]
Originally posted by hot_pastrami
"Snacks?" Hah! Wee little "snacks" are for sissies.
Pizza is a snack.
Good job.
Originally posted by hot_pastrami
"Snacks?" Hah! Wee little "snacks" are for sissies. My brother and I, on two occasions, have smuggled pairs of large pizzas into a movie, just for the sport of it. It's big fun, and you get some interesting reactions from fellow movie-goers when they smell pizza and see the bounty that has been secreted into the theater. Har!
Best I ever smuggled was a liter soda and a foot long hero with all the fix'ens. I do it on principle as I am offended by overpriced movie food.
I've also smuggled in White Castles, Big Macs, chicken parm sandwich, I make it a point to always walk in with some food.
But dammit, I never took in a whole pie! Now don't tell me how you did it, cuz I'm gunna figure it out and do it myself when I go see Return of the King!
If its not too late, I would change all the references to "Troy" to "Mr. Taylor" or "Troy Taylor". Good job. You could also shoot in something like ' I realize that this time of year can be stressful and that this particular evening was very busy. Still, these are no excuses for Mr. Taylor's rude, offensive, and unprofessional behavior." then you precut any whiney excuse Taylor could offer.:)
Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
IF the letter gets read passed the first page, it'll be by a bored secretary. Business executives won't read anything longer than 1 page, unless it comes from higher up.
On several occasions, I have been surprised at the effectiveness of a letter to a company, even a long one. For instance, my wife and I were treated rudely by a sales rep at the jewelry store where we bought her wedding ring... we had come back to ask some questions about the stone, there was some kind of marking which appeared on the outer surface which wouldn't wash off. The store manager there was rude and condescending, depite the fact that my wife and I had come in without complaint, only questions.
So I sent a 2-3 page letter (I forget how long exactly), and within a couple days the regional manager called, arranged to travel to Salt Lake to meet with us, and brought some new diamonds from which we could choose any to trade with my wife's main diamond. She was very apologetic, and very thorough, and gave us a box of some kick-ass cookies (I don't know if "Ben's Cookies" is a chain, but if you have one nearby, they're yummy).
So, one never knows. I have seen companies that go out of their way to help dissatisfied customers, and I have seen companies that don't give a rat's ass. We'll see which way Cinemark leans.
Originally posted by warch
If its not too late, I would change all the references to "Troy" to "Mr. Taylor" or "Troy Taylor". Good job. You could also shoot in something like ' I realize that this time of year can be stressful and that this particular evening was very busy. Still, these are no excuses for Mr. Taylor's rude, offensive, and unprofessional behavior." then you precut any whiney excuse Taylor could offer.:)
Good suggestions... I'll revise.
OK, I'll just slink off with my tail between my legs as I have been sounding overridden. Give 'em hell.:D
Personally, I hope they poke a scalding hot poker right into that fuckers eyeball...*sigh* A girl can dream...
At any rate, good luck with your letter, and blessings to your family.
:)
HP nice well thought out letter . That may work but if it doesn't there is always this ,
when writing one of those letters, my wife always seems to work, " I would rather shop naked at K-Mart than to patronize your business again" into it. It doesn't really fit into the context of your letter, but maybe as a title?
I'm beginning to think that she just really wants to shop naked at kmart.
take lots of pics dude :D :D
Sorry to hear about your aunts.
Good job on the movie business. Even if you don't get any response (and you probably will), there's something satisfying about just complaining.
Originally posted by OnyxCougar
[COLOR=indigo]Yes, but in MANY cases, that bored secretary will bring something written in a lucid, polite, and coherent manner to the attention of "da boss." I worked in the office of the president for a national credit card company for over a year, and the "You shitbags stole money from me" letter was ALWAYS given the standard response, while a letter like the one above garnered immediate "personal attention" of the President. It's like that at my present job, as well.
I will bend over backward to help someone who approaches me respectfully, and I'll stonewall those that curse and yell. Every time.[/COLOR]
I agree with Onyx - I get many letters and the ones that are polite, to the point and (even if they are lengthy) give me an accurate description of what is causing/caused the problem are much easier to read and deal with that the ones that just say "you fucking suck. You denied my claim. You bitch."
I worked in high-level Unix tech support for a while and even (especially?) in big-time IT departments, there were always both decent callers and terrible assholes.
From me, the decent people got all the good support. If they worked with me and not against me, I would work their problem as hard as possible. If they said something like "take your time, I don't need the answer right away," they got a fully-researched pro answer with every possible consideration of their problem faxed to them (this WAS 1992) by the end of the day.
If they snapped at me without knowing who I was, they got the minimum necessary to complete the call. "Your problem is answered on page 56 of the administrative guide. If you need to know exactly which options to use, you should contact our consulting department for their hourly rates."
It was rare to get someone actually swearing at you, but a cow-orker of mine had a good response if they did: just hang up. Management respected the idea that someone would simply not tolerate that level of unprofessional behavior. Well, this WAS 1992.
i think it's a very good letter to send. good job!
still hoping the best for your aunt!
I got some really evil customers on the phone when I worked in a call center 2 years ago as a supervisor...the worst one I got was a guy from Seattle that wished I would have been in the World Trade Center towers on September 11...only 2 weeks after the attack.
I think I still have my response to that around here somewhere...ah
here it is.
The cliche "Kill 'em with kindness" sounds so fucking corny...but you know what? It works the majority of the time.
Well, my aunt's situation has worsened considerably... because she hasn't regained consciousness, they did an MRI on her, and discovered that she has some severe brain damage. They originally thought that she had only been without oxygen for 2-3 minutes before the paramedics arrived, but now they're guessing it was longer, resulting in the evident damage.
Her kids signed a Do Not Resuscitate for her yesterday, when the doctors told them that if their mom ever does recover and wake up, which is doubtful, her quality of life will be shit. Her doctors estimate that she's got about a week to live, or without the life-support equipment, considerably less.
Her son has been awesome, spending lengthy hours at the hospital and taking care of everything, but her daughter has been a shithead... the first thing she did when she heard what happened to her mother was to go to her mother's apartment and start rifling through things, putting dibbs on what she wanted for herself. Fucking vulture.
Sounds like my family when my grandmother died...it wound up causing a schism within the family that has only recently begun to subside.
We've had some similar crap here with my Mom on her way out. I may work up a public rant about it here at some point. Usually Petes side of the family goes insane this time of year, this year its mine.
I'm really sorry to hear about this. My mother's family went through something similar when her parents passed. She just stood back and let it all go on, stating that no material object was worth her relationship with her siblings.
I feel pretty much the same way. Stuff is just stuff. People are what's important.
Not that I don't like stuff...
My mother stood back also. Her 2 brothers divided up the estate and determined that the daughter (mom) should get 10% and the 2 sons should divide 90%. 50% to the elder and 40% to the younger. That's the way it had been done in the past. Of course the past was 1900.:(
this is completely innapropriate to say, but:
can you imagine how long it would take to divide up bruce's doodads when he kicks it? I don;t know if you have any kids, brucey, but you'd better start working on the will now. today.
[COLOR=indigo]Did you miss it in the doodads thread where we get to put dibbies on stuff we want?? What's my haul so far, Bruce?[/COLOR]
Originally posted by lumberjim
this is completely innapropriate to say, but:
can you imagine how long it would take to divide up bruce's doodads when he kicks it? I don;t know if you have any kids, brucey, but you'd better start working on the will now. today.
Forget it. When I kick my brother will back up a 40 yard Dumpster (or 2 :) ) and chuck everything. No sense of history, just current resale value.
griff quiet plans his first roll off hijacking
Hot P - this is my first time here and have to say I agree with your letter and I think you did a PERFECT explanation and detail of what took place that evening. :D
The sad thing about today's society is that we have forgotten what Customer Service is all about. I think that you handled the situation a LOT better than MR. TAYLOR did. I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall to this situation.... this would have been better to see than the movie itself! :boxers:
Well, my aunt lasted until Friday night, the funeral is tomorrow. Ugh. I hate funerals.
These recent deaths have my mind lingering on my own mortality. I think I'm going to stipulate in my will that my funeral should be an occasion to celebrate my life, not an unhappy, solemn gathering. I want music, drinking, laughter, lots of story-swapping, photos, my artwork, etc. I don't want a viewing, I think they're morbid. And after they remove anything useful from my body, I want to be buried in the cheapest pine box money can buy. My wife has similar wishes for her own end. We'll just add to the will that if the kids try to buy us expensive caskets and/or have a viewing, they'll forfeit their inheritance.
Originally posted by nanner2u
Hot P - this is my first time here and have to say I agree with your letter and I think you did a PERFECT explanation and detail of what took place that evening. :D
The sad thing about today's society is that we have forgotten what Customer Service is all about. I think that you handled the situation a LOT better than MR. TAYLOR did. I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall to this situation.... this would have been better to see than the movie itself! :boxers:
I knew that there was a steady decline in Customer Service over the past few years, but it seems that with the economy's sharp downturn came a similar downturn in customer service. Businesses just don't seem to give a shit about their customers, which will serve only to worsen their money problems. I have recently had several bad experiences which have required the attention of a manager (though the theater experience was the first negative-angry rather than negative-disappointed), and most managers offer nothing but a short, insincere, responsibility-skirting apology. It's disgraceful. Previously it was a rare thing for me to boycott companies out of principle, but it's proving to be an increasing trend.
Condolences on your aunt's passing.
Too few funerary services focus on the achievements of an individual's life. More often there is much mourning of the loss, but no honoring of the contributions of that individual. Of course, sometimes the deceased is an irascible son of a bitch, and there's really not much good you can come up with ...
The best services I have gone to have taken the tack of honoring the life which was. Those were Jewish and Native American. Catholic Funerals are a total downer.
Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
IF the letter gets read passed the first page, it'll be by a bored secretary. Business executives won't read anything longer than 1 page, unless it comes from higher up.
If it was me, I would send it to:
Theater execs.. RIGHT to the CEO's (online)
the Theater PR person
the BBB
the newspaper
and
Troy.
Let the execs know you're copying it to everyone.
I do that, and it gets IMMEDIATE results.
Last time I wrote some letters in a temper, I got an apology letter from the Virginia governor's office, among other things.
Originally posted by wolf
The best services I have gone to have taken the tack of honoring the life which was. Those were Jewish and Native American. Catholic Funerals are a total downer.
Mormon funerals are unbearable. They're among the most solemn, depressing events known to man. She's getting a Mormon funeral because her kids are Mormon-- she wasn't. I was greatly annoyed when I learned that her daughter planned to put her in a special white dress for the viewing/burial, a dress which is sacred to Mormons and used in temple ceremonies... in the 20+ years I've been close to Norma, not once
ever did I see her in a dress... and the fact that it's a sacred garment for a religoin she wasn't even a part of only makes it worse. Luckily my aunt's son put the brakes on that idea, though it resulted in a heated family debate.
My aunt's daughter is psychotic... as I mentioned earlier, as soon as she heard about her mother's heart attack she was at her mother's apartment going through her stuff, but in addition to that, she also took it upon herself to pour my aunt's appreciable variety of alcohols down the sink while she was at it. This was back when as far as anyone knew, my aunt could have recovered fully. Boy, I'll bet she felt righteous ridding the place of that evil alcohol... which my aunt used for cooking, and on a very, very rare occasion, for drinking in small quantities. Evil! You've got to love a psychotic, remorseless, devout Mormon with a personal agenda.
Sorry. I may be harboring some bitterness there.
I witnessed a wonderful funeral. This beautiful woman died at age 72. She had cancer and entered hospice care and died peacefully there. Her daughter and granddaughter helped her along the way. Not overtly religious, the funeral was a celebration of her life, the Mom, the librarian, the free thinker, the traveler, the theater lover. She was well known in local theater circles and the most moving aspect of the gathering was an actor friend reading excerpts from the daughter's letters that the Mom had kept. The daughter had found these in her Mom's stuff and had forgotten she'd sent them long ago. They showed all the love and humor there. It was just beautiful. Flowers and pot luck. Mom collected goofy mugs from her travels, had hundreds of them. Everyone was welcome to take a mug on their way out. I aspire to that funeral.
Sorry. I may be harboring some bitterness there.
Yes you are and it's 100% justified. I'd bet a years pay the daughter posthumously baptises (or whatever they call it) her mother into the mormon faith. They encourage that.
I went to a friends funeral last summer. He was dressed in jeans, a journey tee shirt and Grateful Dead suspenders. In the casket were some snap-on wrenches, a yo-yo, a picture of his '55 Chevy, selected CD's and other "stuff" that defined his life. I'll bet there were some joints in his pocket.;)
Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
I'd bet a years pay the daughter posthumously baptises (or whatever they call it) her mother into the mormon faith. They encourage that.
Damn Bruce, you're good. I just discussed that very thing with my cousin (it's uncreatively called "baptism for the dead"), and he and I are estimating about a month before the daughter is making arrangements for that very thing. It would not come as a shock at all if I learned that she had already started the process.
Lots of dead people are victims of this unauthorized baptism-by-proxy. Not only that, but Mormons wear sacred, magical underwear. I'm a little embarrased that I used to sort of be one (though I was very young).
God bless the athiests!
[COLOR=indigo]Being an ex-mormon, I can say you're right about the "sacred underwear" and the "baptisms for the dead". I'm not surprised her daughter chucked all the alcohol. To NOT chuck it would be a horrible thing. Mormons believe that they are the only "enlightened" ones, and if they don't do anything and everything to convert the "wandering" ones, it's their sin.[/COLOR]
just in case you were wondering ...
There are masonic symbols of the square and the compass embroidered in various places on the "sacred chaps" or "jesus drawers" as they are apparently also known.
The two piece version is fairly new. The traditional garment has a step-in neckline, kind of like a leotard. There are also maternity and nursing versions available for the ladies.
Alan,
You are the second Mormon (ex mormon)I've ever met. The other one was at least as bitter as you seem to be. From what he told me, there is WAY too much organized prayer happening, and I don't remember what else. We did a little Amish bashing a while ago....care to take the hose to the Mormons? Or to defend them? I'm interested.
Ehh, let 'em have their fun.
That's like buying a ticket for a train that's already left the station.
Originally posted by wolf
just in case you were wondering ...
There are masonic symbols of the square and the compass embroidered in various places on the "sacred chaps" or "jesus drawers" as they are apparently also known.
I'll probably regret opening up a religion discussion [further], but...
what the heck do the masons have to do with the mormons?
Originally posted by OnyxCougar
[COLOR=indigo]Being an ex-mormon, I can say you're right about the "sacred underwear" [/COLOR]
Wait a minute. I thought you were an ex-english. what gives? are there english mormons? or did you just dally in it? mormon by marriage? married to the mormon. was that a movie? were you captured and forced to convert, then later rescued by a gang of good-guy Vigilantes? Or was that an episode of the A-team?
oh, and is Mormonic a word?
There was quite a bit of furor over the LDS baptism of the dead for
holocaust victims.Originally posted by SteveDallas
what the heck do the masons have to do with the mormons?
It's a secret society. They aren't allowed to tell.
i just gotta say (you americans!) that the mormon underwear fabric looks kinda freaky.
Originally posted by wolf
just in case you were wondering ...
There are masonic symbols of the square and the compass embroidered in various places on the "sacred chaps" or "jesus drawers" as they are apparently also known.
The two piece version is fairly new. The traditional garment has a step-in neckline, kind of like a leotard. There are also maternity and nursing versions available for the ladies.
So...is this then 'Mormon Porn'?
So...is this then 'Mormon Porn'?
morn?
pormon?
Originally posted by lumberjim
Wait a minute. I thought you were an ex-english. what gives? are there english mormons? or did you just dally in it? mormon by marriage? married to the mormon. was that a movie? were you captured and forced to convert, then later rescued by a gang of good-guy Vigilantes? Or was that an episode of the A-team?
oh, and is Mormonic a word?
[COLOR=indigo]I'm not ex-english. I'm still English. Yes, there are Brit Mormons, and Croatian mormons, and Russian mormons. And a bunch of other nationality-d mormons. Kelle was mormon, and she talked me into going, Mormonism was one of the Christian faiths I hadn't explored yet. I was baptised a few months later, THEN they told me all the other stuff that they hadn't told me before. Like about the Sacred Underwear and that you couldn't have non-Mormon's at your sealings.
Then I found some stuff online that they couldn't explain to my satisfaction, so I left.
So yeah, I'm not a mormon any more. Well, I guess technically, since I was baptised, I am a Mormon, just not a practicing one.[/COLOR]
Originally posted by OnyxCougar
[COLOR=indigo]So yeah, I'm not a mormon any more. Well, I guess technically, since I was baptised, I am a Mormon, just not a practicing one.[/COLOR]
Well, if you're not going to practice, how do you expect to get better at it?
My brother just returned from a trip to Honduras. Apparently the Mormon missionaries there build state-of-the-art sports centers, and then tell the kids they can't use them unless they convert.
Mormons: the original Scientologists.
OK, maybe not original, but definitely ancestors.
Originally posted by Happy Monkey
My brother just returned from a trip to Honduras. Apparently the Mormon missionaries there build state-of-the-art sports centers, and then tell the kids they can't use them unless they convert.
My god, that's just plain sick.:vomit:
I lived around a bunch of Mormons growing up...they were mostly medical students and their families from out West (Utah and Washington State, IIRC). Nice folks for the most part.
Having said that, they may be the most cult-like of the Christian religions...
Wolf, was it you that was telling me about the Hawaiian cultural center and its Mormon connection?
You would think that customer service would have improved over the past 3 years due to people trying to hang on to their jobs. It has, but not by much. Profit over customer service, it would seem...
Oh, Alan...my condolences regarding your aunt.
Originally posted by sycamore
IWolf, was it you that was telling me about the Hawaiian cultural center and its Mormon connection?
Yes, it was.
To recap for everybody else ... a friend of mine travelled to Hawaii, and came back telling exciting tales of a "Hawaiian and Polynesian Cultural Center" that she and her daughters had been to. In addition to showing me their own photographs of the place, she had the brochure. I flipped through to the back and saw the LDS info, and replied "Oh, so you went to a museum which shows element of the traditional culture that the Mormons are working so hard to eradicate?"
She had noticed the Mormon stuff, but never really made the connection. She's a good hearted woman, but not all that swift on the uptake. She was once astonished to find that before Jesus, pretty much everyone was pagan. Blew her mind.
Anyway ... here's an article on the Hawaiian Mormons:
http://www.mrm.org/multimedia/text/oahu.html
And here's what they have to say about themselves:
http://w3.byuh.edu/devotionals/media/2003/0924britsch.htmWell, someone from Cinemark got the letter, and e-mailed me this last Friday (Jan 11, 2004):
Dear Mr. Bellows,
I have received your written letter concerning your visit to the Cinemark Theatre in the Provo Towne Center on 12/20/03. First, let me apologize that the incident even happened. You have detailed the events out in which I totally understand your position and the unpleasant experience you had that night. Obviously this was not our goal and was a concern of mine after reading your letter.
I have spoken with Troy Taylor about the incident as well and he is just as uncomfortable with the details. He feels really regrettable that the whole incident happened and especially the exchange in the auditorium. When speaking with him on the matter, I could tell that he was still trying to understand how it got to this point. Troy has been with Cinemark for 11 years and has managed many of our complexes with sound results. I feel he is capable of handling customer issues but it may be that in this case and the events of that night, there could have been a clearer way to handle the situation. I know that, when we have lines of people waiting for hours for a movie like this, if we don't have a solid crowd control process in place, those people who have been waiting start to question "why do they/she/he get to get in the front of the line". Troy may have been trying to do so and really didn’t understand your position with this even though you had mentioned to him that your wife and friends were already in line as you were earlier. I think Troy is wanting to convey his apologizes to you as well and should follow-up with a response.
At any rate, I'm sorry this took place. It appears you attend movies on a regular basis at this theatre. My hope is that, something like this hasn't happened to you in the past and will not happen in the future.
Kindest regards,
Kim D. Phillips
Rocky Mountain Region Leader
Hmm, I did ask specifically for a phone call, and not an e-mail, but we'll see how/if Troy decides to contact me. Two weeks isn't too bad a response time, either. What I suspect is that old Troy-Boy will e-mail a nice, sincere non-apology ("I regret that you misunderstood me," or "I'm sorry if you didn't understand.") We'll see.
[COLOR=indigo]Hmm. I'm not sure I'd be satisfied with this, I think a set of 2 movie passes is in order. But it doesn't look like you'll be getting that.
Question is: even if Troy emails/calls/whatever you with an apology, will that be enough for you? Will you return to this theatre?
[/COLOR]
you see, here's the problem:
He feels really regrettable
this person is Troy's boss.
Originally posted by OnyxCougar
Hmm. I'm not sure I'd be satisfied with this, I think a set of 2 movie passes is in order. But it doesn't look like you'll be getting that.
Question is: even if Troy emails/calls/whatever you with an apology, will that be enough for you? Will you return to this theatre?
Well, my primary motivation was for Troy's superiors to be aware of his shameful behavior, and I did get that. I also wanted to be a part of the mechanism of Karma, to teach our dear Mr. Taylor that being an ass has consequences. Like I said in the letter, I wasn't looking for movie passes, but a personal apology, by phone, from each individual.
I think I'll wait to reserve judgement until I hear what Troy has to say (assuming he ever does contact me). If he offers a half-hearted bullshit apology, I'll reply to the regional manager saying "Nice effort, but this failure to follow through on my request once again demonstrates your company's lack of customer service." If he seems to really feel "regrettable" (cough), then I'll probably resume my business there.
It's the nicest theater in town by a good margin, so I'd like to take my business back there, but I have to follow my principles, damnit.
I just got this e-mail:
Mr. Bellows:
Let me apologize for the incident that occured on 2/20/03. As Mr. Phillips stated it was a regrettable experience and I felt as such immediately afterwards.
I shouldn't have walked up in the middle of the conversation between you and my ushers because I obviously didn't know what exactly was going on. I didn't expect the exchange to get as out of control as it did and it threw me off.
I understand that you have attended here often and if you would like to reply with your address I can send you some passes for you, your wife and the other couple you were with so we can have another chance to offer a better movie-going experience.
Again, I'm sorry the situation occured and hope you have a better movie-going experience on future visits.
Sincerely,
Troy Taylor
General Manager
Pretty lame. "I'm sorry the situation occured" is a far cry from taking responsibility. At no point does he actually admit to any substantial fault, it's just fluffy bullshit. I was thinking I'd follow up with Region Leader, Mr. Phillips, and say that while I appreciate the response, it falls quite short of my original, simple request of a personal apology. What do you guys think?
[COLOR=indigo]well, he DID say:
I shouldn't have walked up in the middle of the conversation between you and my ushers because I obviously didn't know what exactly was going on.
That sounds like an admission to me.
[/COLOR]
Originally posted by lumberjim
let him up
Why do you think so? The man was a collosal ass, and offers little by way of apology. To say "I'm sorry the situation occured" is NOT the same thing as "I'm sorry for my behavior."
Originally posted by OnyxCougar
well, he DID say:
I shouldn't have walked up in the middle of the conversation between you and my ushers because I obviously didn't know what exactly was going on.
That sounds like an admission to me.
That wasn't the point at which he caused the problem though, that was just how he introduced himself into the problem. True, the problem would not have occurred if he hadn't walked up and asked what was going on, but he was well aware of the circumstances when he insinuated that I was lying to him. His "admission" implies that he was a victim of circumstance, not the wrong-doer.
Take the passes and a baseball bat.
Here Alan, let me translate it into Sycamore-speak for you:
Mr. Bellows:
I'm really sorry about what happened 12/20/03. Believe me, I feel bad...my boss ripped me a brand new asshole for Christmas.
I decided to be a jackass and stick my nose into a situation without knowing what was up. It wound up going straight into the shitter and I made myself look like a real jackass.
If you send me your address, I'll throw some free passes your way. It's hard enough doing business in the State of Utah, and the last thing I need is to be sitting in my trailer park collecting puny ass unemployment checks because I got a case of the stupids for one night.
Please come back...dear God, if you don't come back, I am so fucked.
Sincerely,
Troy Taylor
General Manager
On the one hand, I have to agree with you, HP. They haven't demonstrated that they understand in the least why you were angry.
On the other hand, how far do you want to take this. If you go back to Ms. Phillips and still don't get the apology you deserve, are you going to stop patronage?
At this point, maybe you'd do better to call the regional office and ask for Ms. Phillips? At least you'd know whether you're being blown off.
Yeah, take the tickets. You're not going to make the guy have a "holy shit, I'm an asshole!" epiphany.
Originally posted by hot_pastrami
Why do you think so? The man was a collosal ass, and offers little by way of apology. To say "I'm sorry the situation occured" is NOT the same thing as "I'm sorry for my behavior."
yeah. collossal ass. whatever. Do you think he cares if you come back? I'd BET he'd prefer you didn't. Who's losing out here? You say you like the theatre. Yet, you challenge the first two people that reccomend forgiveness. You're still mad. Try letting the other party that accompanies you choose the location. Don't take the tickets, though. And be sure to walk up to troy and greet him. THEN you'll get your apology. Albeit lame and noncommital.
he is probably completely humiliated, and is trying to save himself from a lifetime of viagra. his boss knows, someone else knows, he has to apologize like a child...good. he'll remember this wash of embarassment later. take the passes...get some for the rest of us, too. maybe in your return you could mention...creatively...that he didn't really take responsibility, but you know that's hard for a swaggering dick like him. that way you get the apology, the movie passes..and the last shot.
dar
Originally posted by sycamore
Here Alan, let me translate it into Sycamore-speak for you:
Mr. Bellows:
I'm really sorry about what happened 12/20/03. Believe me, I feel bad...my boss ripped me a brand new asshole for Christmas.
I decided to be a jackass and stick my nose into a situation without knowing what was up. It wound up going straight into the shitter and I made myself look like a real jackass.
If you send me your address, I'll throw some free passes your way. It's hard enough doing business in the State of Utah, and the last thing I need is to be sitting in my trailer park collecting puny ass unemployment checks because I got a case of the stupids for one night.
Please come back...dear God, if you don't come back, I am so fucked.
Sincerely,
Troy Taylor
General Manager
syc....... this is perfect. :thumb: :thumb:
two thumbs way way up!!!!!!!
[COLOR=indigo]hehe.... way up which orifice??[/COLOR]
Tell me what you think of this, I was thinking I'd email it to Troy, and CC the regional manager:
Good morning, Mr. Taylor,
Thank you for your reply to my letter.
I hope that this experience has shown you that some people whom you may encounter as customers, such as myself, will react strongly when their integrity is questioned. To a man of principle, it is no small matter to be called a liar, whether the insult is insinuated or stated outright. Hence my negative reaction to your statements which indicated that you distrusted me, in a situation where you had no reason to believe I was lying.
When I told you my wife was waiting for me in line, you could have said "I'm sorry, I didn't realize that. You're welcome to go join her." The situation would have ended there without incident. Instead, you chose to be sarcastic and disrespectful to me, and openly indicate your suspicion that I was lying. You were then rude to my wife, who was confused and unaware of the situation, and that is the action which provoked me the most. If your only blunder had been your initial sarcastic comment, I would have become irritated, but the situation would have ended after I rejoined my wife. Instead, it was escalated to a very unpleasant exchange due to the way you treated her.
There is no need to send free movie passes; I was not motivated by a desire for free goods. I wished only to communicate my disappointment at the poor customer service displayed that evening. Your e-mail message, as well as the one from Mr. Phillips, shows that you appreciate how the situation might have been handled better, and therefore I feel I can resume my patronage at your theater. However, due to this blemish on your theater's reputation, I will no longer visit your theater exclusively, I will attend movies there only when it is most convenient for me. Customer loyalty is a difficult thing to win, but an easy thing to lose.
Take care,
Alan Bellows
Too harsh? Not harsh enough? I keep gauging my reaction against you guys because it still makes my blood boil to remember him being belligerent to my wife... so I want to make sure I'm not overreacting.
By the way... Very nice translation, Syc. Hilarious.
Originally posted by lumberjim
yeah. collossal ass. whatever.
If you witnessed the way he treated me, and my wife, you'd agree. He was rude to her, and she didn't even know what was going on. "Collossal ass" is a very apt description.
i'm not trying to belittle your reaction, alan. I'm just saying that it shouldn't matter to you that much. meaning that if you carry your anger about this, your load is heavier. I think you did the right thing in arguing with troy instead of being intimidated, and I also think it was wise to alert his superiors, but beyond that, you're just spinning your wheels. let it go...deep breaths......in....out.....in...out.
Originally posted by lumberjim
I'm just saying that it shouldn't matter to you that much.
Everybody has their hot button(s), mine just happens to be when someone questions my integrity. Sure, it may not bother
YOU so much, but I'm sure there are a few things which would bother you more than they would me. Whether it
should bother me so much is completely subjective. My only issue is that he seems to be representing himself as a victim of circumstance, but I want his superiors to be aware that he acted like a complete asshole under the circumstances. They should be aware of their employees' failings, and work to remedy them. I don't hate the man's guts, but he did toss down quite a a few seeds of spite, so I think I owe him a good part of the harvest.
Originally posted by lumberjim
deep breaths......in....out.....in...out.
Yeah, super. Didn't you just say you
weren't belittling my reaction?
Take the passes or not, one line max. I think no comment is the best tact. Another letter and Troy has fuel to show Mr. Kim that youre a "hot pastrami" and argumentative. unpleasable.
"See I tried to be nice and that guy is just nuts." No matter the circumstances, it'd look like that. Dont give Troy the out. Go high road.
Why is your integrity a hot button? I'm not being smart aleky, I have my buttons too and its interesting to look at the emotions behind them. Its good, I think, to be reminded that you know your value. Its not an emergency. What others say or think is really, truly, nothing to you.
Originally posted by warch
Why is your integrity a hot button?
That's a question with a truly complex answer. I'm not sure if I can answer effectively.
Some people say that they don't care what anybody thinks about them, but I think such people are fooling themselves. On some level, conscious or otherwise, they care about the opinions of others. One of the easiest, and most ironic, ways to prove this is to watch such a person defend their "I don't care what people think" attitude when you question it. They won't necessarily get emotional, but they will make a significant effort to make you believe them. Why try to convince anybody of anything if you don't care what they think?
Humans are social animals, and interaction with others is a necessity for survival, helpful for finding happiness, and obviously unavoidable in procreating. I assert that a healthy psyche MUST value the input of others, though the weight given to any outside opinion should vary depending on the source's trustworthiness, awareness of key facts, state of mind, etc. Society is the product of opinions, and society gives us a yardstick against which to measure our success, allowing us to strive for improvment. Everybody wants to have value.
So... I think one's hot buttons are tied to those personal traits which one holds most valueable, because for another person to question those traits is to risk losing one's perceived value. Basically, for the benefit of my own self-worth, it is important to me that I am trusted... so to question my integrity triggers a strong defense mechanism.
Another possibility... trust is a kind of power (not in a negative sense). If everyone trusts me, I have greater power, because my word is enough to get me much of I want and need. For someone to call my trustworthiness into question jeopardizes that hard-won power to some degree, so my reflex is to defend it with an equal but opposite intensity.
Too deep? Sorry.
Originally posted by hot_pastrami
Yeah, super. Didn't you just say you weren't belittling my reaction?
OK, MY BAD.
that part was just to lighten the post a little.
[sarcasm] maybe you could make this your personal mission and get the sonofabitch fired. I wonder if he has kids? If you can get me a little bit more info on him, I can help you trash his credit rating. Then maybe we could seduce his wife. oh, and how about getting the IRS to take a nice long look at him. I know someone there. he'll be suicidal in a matter of months. will you feel better then? [/sarcasm]
At this point, everyone who matters trusts your integrity, but some are becoming wary of your capacity for overreaction.
You have humiliated him multiple times, Pastrami-San. You have won. You need not gut him. Allow yourself the enjoyment of victory. Take in a nice film perhaps.
I dunno, UT. I just got of the phone with Troy and he said Allen Bellows is a big fat liar and he never went to troy's theater or wrote a letter.:eek: Just kidding, Pas. I agree with what Warch said, but I also know somethings you have to pursue peace of mind. Only you know what that entails.:)
Originally posted by Undertoad
You have humiliated him multiple times, Pastrami-San. You have won. You need not gut him. Allow yourself the enjoyment of victory. Take in a nice film perhaps.
Ok. I'm hearing Mr. Miyagi. Wax on. Wax off. Wax on. Wax off. :)
Originally posted by wolf
And here's what they have to say about themselves:
http://w3.byuh.edu/devotionals/media/2003/0924britsch.htm
excuse me sir, but if the VP is such a VIP shouldn't we keep the PC on the QT? otherwise it could leak out to the VC and he'd be listed an MIA and then we'd all be put on KP. - good morning vietnam:D
HP you've got the upper hand. take the free passes or don't take them. i like your reasoning that you will visit other theaters as well. as my boss used to say (and still does) "it only takes one 'aw shit' to fuck up a hundred 'atta-boys'"
Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
My god, that's just plain sick.:vomit:
Not as sick as the Europeans telling everyone everywhere to become Christians or die, though.
Well, since my last post was obviously waaayyyy too far away from the part I was quoting to even make any sense, I should probably try to get on topic (I mean the most recent topic in this rather versatile thread...and HP, many condolences on your Aunt's passing. I trust she is on the other side, smiling down on all of us, especially you).
Anyway, if you aren't satisfied with what the two corporate drones said, then by all means, carry on. The reason that their messages admit no personal responsibility is that they aren't allowed to admit that. It might open the door for some sort of legal action, so no one is going to openly admit any dereliction of duty, aggression or anything else that might even remotely be able to be construed as actionable. Remember, we award millions of dollars to people who are too stupid to know that hot coffee is hot these days. Who's to say some jury who had also been mistreated while standing in line for a film wouldn't give you a few thou just to get even?
Bottom line is that 'service' business no longer provide services. They herd cattle, extracting cash from their hides at every opportunity. Where you go to see a movie is immaterial to them, because you are merely one of the herd. Very few movie theaters go out of business because they treat people poorly. They go out of business because the demographic of the area they are in changes, or their technology and accoutrements are superceded by other, newer facilities. Therefore, you simply don't matter to them, and the fact that you got any letters at all is pretty remarkable.
I was also extremely impressed by the literacy level of the boss. Christ, I'll be he makes $200k+, and he can't even express himself. His minimum wage secretary was probably out for the day or something. I used to work for a guy who was a millionaire, yet couldn't spell correctly any word over five letters long.
Keep nailing them...go over the boss guy's head. Leave Vibram sole prints on his scalp. Bitch until *you* feel vindicated.
Originally posted by Undertoad
At this point, everyone who matters trusts your integrity, but some are becoming wary of your capacity for overreaction.
You have humiliated him multiple times, Pastrami-San. You have won. You need not gut him. Allow yourself the enjoyment of victory. Take in a nice film perhaps.
Perhaps you're right. But I don't want to be guilty of underreacting, either. I feel that the part where he called me a liar is pretty much satisfied, but his treatment of my wife still bugs me.
I don't think you can accurately judge whether I'm overreacting, though.... Keep in mind that you got the nice, filtered, third-person perspective of what happened... you didn't have to see that smug, superior sonuvabitch basically call you a liar to your face. You didn't have him standing over your wife in a movie theater, threatening to throw you out if you don't apologize, when
he was the one who wronged first, and refuses to apologize himself, denying that he'd done anything wrong. All this a few days before Christmas.
ljim, I know you were being sarcastic, but maybe the shithead
should lose his job. Maybe he pulls this shit all the time. I'm not going to try to get him fired, but I will persue this to my satisfaction, and if that results in him losing his job, then so be it. If I treated a customer like he treated me, I'd deserve to get fired. That's just the way business works when it comes to customer service.
I haven't decided how to reply exactly, if at all, but I do intend to refuse the tickets. My principles can't be bought off.
Originally posted by hot_pastrami
...but maybe the shithead should lose his job.
Of course that would give him 24-7 for a nut job revenge scenerio...
Looking in, I think you got your pound of flesh. If he does it again, the paper trail exists for a firing. You've done your part, if this was out of character for him, he's been warned. If this is normal behavior, they'll get rid of him.
but his treatment of my wife still bugs me.
If it doesn't bug her, the problem remains solved.
In fact the only problem that remains is in your mind, and it continues to do terrible damage there, far beyond the initial disrespect which is now well in the past.
ya know, this is the kind of thing that used to get settled by a good ole fashioned fist fight. But for SOME reason, that kind of behavior is FROWNED upon nowadays. go figger
Originally posted by lumberjim
ya know, this is the kind of thing that used to get settled by a good ole fashioned fist fight.
That sort of thing works if both guys are about the same build. Really nothing gets decided, but they both get their agression worked out.
But I'm on the small side. Odds are against me in a fistfight.
Hey, maybe you could challenge him to a Quakefest and frag him into slag.
Originally posted by Elspode
Remember, we award millions of dollars to people who are too stupid to know that hot coffee is hot these days. .
That poor woman. All she wanted was a cup of coffee, and now she's a pariah.
Originally posted by jinx
That poor woman. All she wanted was a cup of coffee, and now she's a pariah.
That "poor" woman sued because she spilled coffee on herself.
She deserves to be a pariah - she is a symbol of a new social phenomenon whereby the responsibility of the irresponsible is transferred to the nearest deep pocket by 12 neanderthal jurors and unethical attorneys.
I don't blame the woman for spilling coffee in her lap. I do it all the time. I do, however, blame her, her attorney and a broken legal system (that the trial lawyers want to stay broke) for basically stealing three million dollars in plain sight.
And I'm supposed to feel
sorry for her? How's that? :confused:
I don't know that you're supposed to feel sorry for - I feel sorry for her though. I'd feel bad for anyone that spent a week in the hospital and had to have skin grafts on their nether regions because they got some coffee at the drive thru. That would just really suck.
But it was still as a consequence of her own stupidity.
The situation evokes some measure of pity, but no genuine sympathy. And, because of goddamned Stella, I can't get a decently hot cup of coffee anywhere.
I also don't feel bad for the shithead who lost his fingers because he failed to follow the instructions for clearing clogged, wet grass from his lawnmower blade.
"Turn the fucking thing off" is not rocket science, nor is "don't stick your hand near the sharp thing."
having worked in restaurants, i happen to know WHY McDonalds coffee used to be so hot.. the hotter the water, the less grounds you need to extract the same flavor level. breing coffee at 180 deg, is a corner cutting tactic, and it bit them.....now, in order to provide the same flavor with 140 deg water, they need more grounds/cup. i dont, however think 3mil was appropriate. maybe 1/2 mil? they should have asked me.
Aside from going to McD's in the first place, I don't see what she did that was so stupid. Everyone spills their drink occasionally, that's klutz not supid isn't it?
Klutz stupid is sitting in the passenger seat with the cup of blazingly hot coffee, which is known and expected to be blazingly hot, clutched in between one's thighs.
THAT is how stella injured herself.
She might as well have sued the vehicle manufacturer over the lack of cupholders.
It WAS all Stella's fault.
Originally posted by Beestie
Originally posted by jinx
I don't blame the woman for spilling coffee in her lap. I do it all the time. I do, however, blame her, her attorney and a broken legal system (that the trial lawyers want to stay broke) for basically stealing three million dollars in plain sight.
The original jury award of 2.7 million in punative damages was appealed and reduced to $480,000.
Originally posted by Undertoad
If it doesn't bug her, the problem remains solved.
So does it follow that if it
does still bug her, that the problem remains unsolved? She still feels some lingering annoyance as a result of that evening, and she too felt that his letter was an unsatisfying non-apology.
It's no matter now though... I sent an e-mail declining the passes and telling them that I'd resume my patronage at their theater, though no longer exclusively. It's basically over.
Originally posted by Undertoad
In fact the only problem that remains is in your mind, and it continues to do terrible damage there, far beyond the initial disrespect which is now well in the past.
Judging by the reactions like this one, I think that I have done an inadequate job of illustrating how big an asshole Troy was that evening. I find it hard to believe that this was an isolated incident due to a bad night, because he was being so vindictive about it. He had several opportunities to resolve the situation, but instead he compounded the problem, and pursued it to the point that other people in the theater-- strangers-- were literally shouting at him to leave us alone.
Personally, I let things stew in my mind until I am satisfied with the result, or until enough time has passed that the edge has worn off. "Forgive and forget" is a nice theory, but it discourages consequences.
Imagine if you were having a pleasant evening walk with your significant other, and a well-dressed man approaches you and asks for some money. You refuse. A few minutes later, he appears from behind, and tries to make off with your wife/girlfriend's purse. After a tug-of-war, you manage to get it back. The police are nearby, and stop the perpetrator. A few minutes later, an officer comes over and says, "Well, he feels bad about what happened, and he says that if you'd only given him some money, he wouldn't have had to try to steal her purse. He doesn't understand how it got to that point. He says his wealthy father will send you $20 if you just forget the whole thing."
Would you press charges?
Originally posted by jinx
No. I don't agree.
That's cool.
Phew!
It's interesting though, that the 'admit no liability' tactic that was just being discussed seemed to have hurt McD's in the eyes of the jurors;
"The testimony of Mr. Appleton, the McDonald's executive, didn't help the company, jurors said later. He testified that McDonald's knew its coffee sometimes caused serious burns, but hadn't consulted burn experts about it. He also testified that McDonald's had decided not to warn customers about the possibility of severe burns, even though most people wouldn't think it possible. Finally, he testified that McDonald's didn't intend to change any of its coffee policies or procedures, saying, "There are more serious dangers in restaurants."
Mr. Elliott, the juror, says he began to realize that the case was about "callous disregard for the safety of the people."
Next for the defense came P. Robert Knaff, a human-factors engineer who earned $15,000 in fees from the case and who, several jurors said later, didn't help McDonald's either. Dr. Knaff told the jury that hot-coffee burns were statistically insignificant when compared to the billion cups of coffee McDonald's sells annually.
To jurors, Dr. Knaff seemed to be saying that the graphic photos they had seen of Mrs. Liebeck's burns didn't matter because they were rare. "There was a person behind every number and I don't think the corporation was attaching enough importance to that," says juror Betty Farnham.
When the panel reached the jury room, it swiftly arrived at the conclusion that McDonald's was liable. "The facts were so overwhelmingly against the company," says Ms. Farnham. "They were not taking care of their consumers."
Then the six men and six women decided on compensatory damages of $200,000, which they reduced to $160,000 after determining that 20% of the fault belonged with Mrs. Liebeck for spilling the coffee."
http://www.vanfirm.com/mcdonalds-coffee-lawsuit.htmI don't think you're overreacting.
But there is one important thing to remember, which I believe I have the experience to impart, based on my 7 years of service in retail.
The employees at the theater don't care about you. They will never care about you, or your petty problems, and you can't make them. They're minumum wage workers who don't get any extra money by giving you good service. There's simply nothing in it for them. There's nothing you can do to change this.
I, of course, sympathise with you completely. But I know from experience that there are just so damned many customers, that employees typically just dehumanize them and see them as sheep.
So, I think your rage is completely justified. But realize that after a certain point, your efforts are fairly pointless.
Well then, clearly revenge is the only answer.
Determine when he's in the place, and then write another customer service letter, in an entirely different style, from someone other than you, with misspellings, a different address (use a friend's), and with a story based on the time of his shift.
Creativity is encouraged, but make it believeable.
The next reaming will be one he doesn't expect.
Originally posted by Undertoad
Well then, clearly revenge is the only answer.
Determine when he's in the place, and then write another customer service letter, in an entirely different style, from someone other than you, with misspellings, a different address (use a friend's), and with a story based on the time of his shift.
Creativity is encouraged, but make it believeable.
The next reaming will be one he doesn't expect.
So... to exact my revenge upon Troy for (among other things) questioning my integrity, I should... sacrifice my integrity? I hope you were trying to use irony to make a point there, but if so, I still disagree with the point. You seem to be attaching false motives to my actions. Troy took some really nasty actions, and I want his employer to have an equal but opposite reaction. That's
justice, or
karma...not revenge. Some people don't make a distinction, but there is one, and it's important.
I don't want to ruin the guy's life, but I want him to face the consequences for his actions. From what I've seen, I doubt he got chewed out about this, he probably just got a mention of it from his boss. If I'm right, then perhaps providing more details to his boss would result in the justified chewing-out. If I'm wong, if he DID get chewed out, they're not going to chew him out again over the same incident.
But it sounds like you've already decided unwaveringly that I'm overreacting, based on incomplete, third-party information. And that's OK, I'll just continue to disagree. But like I said, It's over anyway.
Originally posted by juju
The employees at the theater don't care about you. They will never care about you, or your petty problems, and you can't make them. They're minumum wage workers who don't get any extra money by giving you good service. There's simply nothing in it for them. There's nothing you can do to change this.
I too have some experience in customer service, from several different jobs, and my experience has shown me that in most companies,
somebody cares how the customers are treated, the trick is to find who that person is, and impart your experience to them.
So, what DO you want, HP? were you hoping we'd all just say " you did the right thing, good job" ?
What would have to happen for you to be appeased?
Originally posted by lumberjim
So, what[b] DO you want, HP? were you hoping we'd all just say " you did the right thing, good job" ?
What would have to happen for you to be appeased? [/B]
Obviously some will disagree with me, and that's good... it provides different perspectives. If
everyone disagreed with me
strongly, I'd be worried. But as I expected, I'm getting mixed results. But in the end, I will do what I think is right, whether advice here swayed my views or not.
What do I want? I just want Troy's superior to know what Troy did, and respond in whatever way he deems appropriate. I sent the letter to get their attention, and they responded, so I sent a last, brief reply to Troy and his superior, including the text of Troy's e-mail in case his superior wasn't BCC'd on it. I also turned down the free passes, to illustrate that I was not motivated by a desire for free shit. I am now pretty confident that his superior is aware of what happened, so I let it rest there. Like I said several posts ago... it's done, it's over. That is, unless
they decide to follow up on it or something, which I doubt.
If your question is meant to explore why I still seem irritated about the events, it is because although Troy grossly mistreated my wife and I-- loyal customers-- I suspect he got little more than a hand-slapping over this. He got away with being an asshole in a profession which shouldn't tolerate that, and in the end, my wife and I had to eat the shit sandwich. Maybe I'm wong, maybe he's been written up and is now on probation or something, but I suspect not. Either way, I've ended my efforts, as I stated.
I'm interested in this depth.
I assert that a healthy psyche MUST value the input of others, though the weight given to any outside opinion should vary depending on the source's trustworthiness, awareness of key facts, state of mind, etc. Society is the product of opinions, and society gives us a yardstick against which to measure our success, allowing us to strive for improvment. Everybody wants to have value.
I think a healthy psyche has to first and foremost be solid in the inalieable constant of it own value, by virtue of being alive, regardless of outside opinion. And I'm finding that the outside opinions and yardsticks, no matter how trustworthy or loving, are never going to ever give me a reading I find meaningful, really, truly.
I think one's hot buttons are tied to those personal traits which one holds most valueable, because for another person to question those traits is to risk losing one's perceived value. Basically, for the benefit of my own self-worth, it is important to me that I am trusted... so to question my integrity triggers a strong defense mechanism.
I'm finding that my hot buttons are tied to ideas or actions that threaten my secure sense of myself. They threaten to expose a deep fear or reveal some emotion that can be uncomfortable to deal with. Sounds corny, but for me, its growing past the protective defense reflexes learned as a kid. I'm tougher than that now.
Originally posted by wolf
But it was still as a consequence of her own stupidity.
[rant]That's the weird part of this case to me. McDs was not in a position to judge her competence to handle a hot cup of coffee (of course they'd be sued for descrimination if they refused to serve anyone). However, the driver of the car who ordered and handed the coffee to her and allowed her to put the coffee in her lap rather than in a cup holder (if available) would seem to carry most of the blame... Knowing the way our society has turned from individual responsibility, McDs law dept should have prevented the whole thing by making them sell cool coffee in the first place. Who at the Arches made the final call on coffee temp? If McDs is liable (big if) then the individual who made the call is responsible, but its not about responsibility, its about money. Well, at least Jonathon Edwards will never be POTUS.[/rant]
Originally posted by lumberjim
i'm not trying to belittle your reaction, alan. I'm just saying that it shouldn't matter to you that much. meaning that if you carry your anger about this, your load is heavier. I think you did the right thing in arguing with troy instead of being intimidated, and I also think it was wise to alert his superiors, but beyond that, you're just spinning your wheels. let it go...deep breaths......in....out.....in...out.
nope. it SHOULD MATTER. that's the problem with us. we've grown into this culture of rudeness, disrespect, hateful humanity doesn't matter any more. it SHOULD MATTER. alan is doing exactly what EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US should do....standing up, being firm, saying, NO! i will not go gentle.
go, alan.
Originally posted by Beestie
Originally posted by jinx
And I'm supposed to feel sorry for her? How's that? :confused:
yeah...she has a body part that she wasn't even USING anymore, and now she has three million dollars to buy it jewelry.
hell, she should feel sorry for ME.
Originally posted by juju
I don't think you're overreacting.
But there is one important thing to remember, which I believe I have the experience to impart, based on my 7 years of service in retail.
The employees at the theater don't care about you. They will never care about you, or your petty problems, and you can't make them.
So, I think your rage is completely justified. But realize that after a certain point, your efforts are fairly pointless.
unless you BRING something with a point to the theater.
Originally posted by darclauz
nope. it SHOULD MATTER. that's the problem with us. we've grown into this culture of rudeness, disrespect, hateful humanity doesn't matter any more. it SHOULD MATTER. alan is doing exactly what EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US should do....standing up, being firm, saying, NO! i will not go gentle.
go, alan.
Alan did what he should have done by standing up to the bastard on the spot, then writing to his superiors to alert them to his behavior. i was saying that beyond that, his efforts seemed fruitless or worse.
oh, and the old lady only wound up with 480K after the appeal.
Originally posted by lumberjim
Alan did what he should have done by standing up to the bastard on the spot, then writing to his superiors to alert them to his behavior. i was saying that beyond that, his efforts seemed fruitless or worse.
oh, and the old lady only wound up with 480K after the appeal.
I didn't get one red cent. And don't call me an old lady. :D
Originally posted by lumberjim
oh, and the old lady only wound up with 480K after the appeal.
yeah, well, 480K would still change MY life......... or am i the only one on the cellar that feels this way?
would you rather have your health or $480K and what's behind curtain #1:
McFact No. 3: The woman involved in this infamous case suffered very serious injuries - third degree burns on her groin, thighs and buttocks that required skin grafts and a seven-day hospital stay.
Reports also indicate that McDonald's consistently keeps its coffee at 185 degrees, still approximately 20 degrees hotter than at other restaurants. Third degree burns occur at this temperature in just two to seven seconds, requiring skin grafting, debridement and whirlpool treatments that cost tens of thousands of dollars and result in permanent disfigurement, extreme pain and disability to the victims for many months, and in some cases, years.
What if she used the cup holder J -- because then, if the coffee spilled, the people who sold her the car could be included in the suit.
She didn't get as far as the cup holder. She wasn't driving. The car wasn't in motion.
She was handed a cup of coffe and she was attempting to put cream and sugar in it - as provided. She was using the product correctly and it burned her twat off.
ok, now you're just egging me. but, I'll bite anyway.
IF the cupholder was defective, and IF the court was to award for that defect, it would be the MANUFACTURER, not the poor, abused car salesman who was just trying to feed his family when he sold her the car at practically no profit, and almost lost his job over the deal he gave her.
UNLESS the only reason that she purchased the car was the saleman's promotion OF the cupholder particularlly, which he went so far as to describe as "spillproof" ... verbally warranting what the manufacturer does not.
It's all the salesman's fault.
Originally posted by jinx
She didn't get as far as the cup holder. She wasn't driving. The car wasn't in motion.
She was handed a cup of coffe and she was attempting to put cream and sugar in it - as provided. She was using the product correctly and it[color=red] burned her twat off.[/color]
aaahhh, that thing prolly looked like an old wallet anyway.
Originally posted by wolf
UNLESS the only reason that she purchased the car was the saleman's promotion OF the cupholder particularlly, which he went so far as to describe as "spillproof" ... verbally warranting what the manufacturer does not.
It's all the salesman's fault.
wolf,
based on this and previous posts wherein you've described your auto purchasing experiences, I am afraid I'll have to ban you from purchasing at Family Chrysler Jeep in lovely, historic Chadds Ford, Pa 888-jeep-111
www.familychryslerjeep.com
"it's a great day to buy a Jeep!"
please provide your real name, so that I may enter you into our database of blacklisted customers. This list is checked by every dealer in the tri state area when we are in the little back room "preparing your quote"
:D
Originally posted by lumberjim
aaahhh, that thing prolly looked like an old wallet anyway.
I bet it didn't look as cool as
this walletOriginally posted by jinx
I bet it didn't look as cool as this wallet
that's it......you have WAY too much free time......GO DO MY LAUNDRY! AND COOK THAT ROAST, GODDAMMIT!!!!
Roast fer dinner? Mmm! What time?
aw, shit, toad, you miss her cooking don;t you?
what time? ( and you're welcome anytime, btw....)
that;s the bad part.......10 ish
jinx has been making mashed potatoes out of califlower lately.....it's surprisingly yummy.
I can't make it tonight, with this snow. I need a vehicle that can give me Peace of Mind. But where could I find such a thing?
Originally posted by lumberjim
that's it......you have WAY too much free time......GO DO MY LAUNDRY! AND COOK THAT ROAST, GODDAMMIT!!!!
I already told you I don't know how to cook the bastard. Besides, it's been living in the fridge so long I thought you were planning to claim it as a dependant this year...
Originally posted by Undertoad
I can't make it tonight, with this snow. I need a vehicle that can give me Peace of Mind. But where could I find such a thing?
[SIZE=1]SCROLL UP A BIT[/SIZE]
I'll put you on the "inside deal" list
Ya da man LJ but I'm just kiddin' really. Next year though...
Originally posted by jinx
I already told you I don't know how to cook the bastard. Besides, it's been living in the fridge so long I thought you were planning to claim it as a dependant this year...
c'mon....i'm hungry......Originally posted by Undertoad
Ya da man LJ but I'm just kiddin' really. Next year though...
Whatever you do - DON'T put any money down...
Originally posted by jinx
Whatever you do - DON'T put any money down...
jeez, you make a few people's down payments dissapear, and your wife will hold it against you forever. where's the love?
Originally posted by lumberjim
jinx has been making mashed potatoes out of califlower lately.....it's surprisingly yummy.
Somebody's doin' South Beach ...