Dave just left
I've read the comments he left along with Toad's. I dont fully understand the problem but I'm sad to see him go. NicName had a similar problem and left too. Both of these guys were interesting and fun to have here.
What can one do? They are free to stop coming here (if they can beat the addiction).
what the fuck has been going on around here?
[just finished reading around]
what the fuck is going on around here?
[COLOR=indigo]I nearly did, but the addiction brought me back.[/COLOR]
Originally posted by OnyxCougar
[COLOR=indigo]I nearly did, but the addiction brought me back.[/COLOR]
IRONIC, NO?
Originally posted by lumberjim
dave got his feelings hurt, took his ball and left.
SEE http://cellar.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4421&perpage=15&pagenumber=18
On the contrary; Dave did NOT get his feelings hurt, and was trying to explain that to everyone. Maybe it's easier for me to understand the situation and the way he feels because I know him so well, but I think it's pretty evident what happened here, and I really think the whole thing is pretty dumb.
ok, jeni. whatever. I know he didn't get his feelings hurt about the eye. When I started this thread and the poll, I was dissapointed, and I was trying to egg him into returning. This seemed like such a little thing to quit over. I would have thought that someone who had as much time and supposed effort invested would be harder to shake. So he and syc had a problem. What about the other people he liked? To bail outlike that is cowardly. If he was just sick of the cellar, he should have said so instead of burrying sycamore by laying the blame at his feet.
Makes me think he's got hurt feelings. I don't know why I give a shit. When I first joined, I assumed he must be one of the moderators or maybe the admin, because he was treated like one. He was respected. THIS just makes him look childish. Like he just wants the attention. What a way to go.
I realize now, however, that even if he DID return, it wouldn't be the same. The damage is done.
I have lost respect for him, and his words wouldn't mean as much ( at least to me) [not that he should care about what I think] anyway. Too bad.
Whatever.
Originally posted by lumberjim
When I first joined, I assumed he must be one of the moderators or maybe the admin, because he was treated like one. He was respected.
Naw, it wasn't respect, Jim. Dave works for a Government contractor that works with the parts of the government that you don't hear about....and live. They can convince your mother, you never existed. Everyone was affraid Dave would have them nullified.
Oh...and he raised attack spiders too.:D
Originally posted by lumberjim
IRONIC, NO?
[COLOR=indigo]Let's not go there.[/COLOR]
So he and syc had a problem. What about the other people he liked? To bail outlike that is cowardly. If he was just sick of the cellar, he should have said so instead of burrying sycamore by laying the blame at his feet.
I happen to know a little bit more about this situation than he's explained in his goodbye post; it really isn't like that. At all. Knowing Dave, and having talked to him a bit about what happened, I know that this doesn't have anything to do with hurt feelings or being sick of the Cellar. He's certainly disappointed, yes... but this just happens to be the way he deals with certain things, and I am not at all surprised that this was the path he chose to take.
He always becomes increasingly abusive and then burns all his bridges and bolts?
How many friends does he have left, with such immature boorish behavior?
What binds you to attempt to defend this kind of stuff without being able to talk about it? Oh, OK, fine, it wasn't cowardly, it was some other form of unspeakable bullshit that permits him and only him to be a total ass.
I for one don't care much about the reason. The fact that it's supposed to be some deep dark secret says much more: it's pathetic game-playing, and the most pathetic thing of all is that the game is still going on and you've been brought into it and are playing it, days after the fact.
Cowardly behavior. As LJ says, pussy. Pussy pussy pussy.
Monday his forum is archived.
Originally posted by Undertoad
He always becomes increasingly abusive and then burns all his bridges and bolts?
How many friends does he have left, with such immature boorish behavior?
What binds you to attempt to defend this kind of stuff without being able to talk about it? Oh, OK, fine, it wasn't [b]cowardly, it was some other form of unspeakable bullshit that permits him and only him to be a total ass.
I for one don't care much about the reason. The fact that it's supposed to be some deep dark secret says much more: it's pathetic game-playing, and the most pathetic thing of all is that the game is still going on and you've been brought into it and are playing it, days after the fact.
Cowardly behavior. As LJ says, pussy. Pussy pussy pussy.
Monday his forum is archived. [/B]
You know, he explained all of this shit to you, and you're taking sides. Maybe it could have been handled differently on his part, but it's pretty pathetic that people he used to consider good friends are now turning on him and calling him names, when he would never have done this to you. THAT is fucking childish.
Edit: And to think, when I talked to Dave last night, he was near clueless about why you chose to end your friendship with him. Over a fucking forum? I mean, can't we let Dave and sycamore work this out without meddling in it? I think it's pretty funny that you are here bashing him, while when I talk to him, he's saying things like "I guess he just doesn't want to be friends anymore", and NOT acting like a complete child by calling you names, since this whole thing had next to nothing to do with you in the first place.
It's not some deep, dark secret. He doesn't want to drag it out on here because he realized that enough had been said, and he also realized that those who needed to know were those
in the know. Which is exactly why he chose to converse with you through email. If you wanted him to post it on here, I'm sure you could have asked, instead of saying this shit about him behind his back.
Look, I wasn't trying to defend everything he's done regarding this situation, because I honestly don't know all the details. However, I do know him well enough that I know it isn't as simple as him just running off with his tail tucked between his legs. And as jeni stated, it is not some deep dark secret, it just really isn't my place to be running my mouth about what I do know about what happened.
There is so much concern about name-calling and getting "personal". For some reason it's seen as off-limits and "morally reprehensible".
But there is also truth. When someone acts like a jerk, I feel like it's okay to say, "Hey, you're acting like a jerk. What's up with that?" For that person to then come back and say, "Oh, well, now you're getting personal!" is incomprehensible to me.
Also, to have good friends, you have to treat them with respect. That's the way it should be, anyway.
I can't imagine how those little pathetic exchanges led to a complete departure of the forum. I wouldn't have thought they represented an "explanation" of a "side".
I looked at the whole response and decided I wouldn't want a friend who operated that way. Or one who trolled everyone - insulting Juju's BABY? Mocking Syc for being on Unemployment? Where IS the line, anyway? I am not only not down with that kind of crap as a target, I'm against it as an innocent bystander.
To be fair, though, "pussy" is probably uncalled for.
(edit: that wasn't intended as a direct reply to the above comment, UT)
Originally posted by juju
There is so much concern about name-calling and getting "personal". For some reason it's seen as off-limits and "morally reprehensible".
But there is also truth. When someone acts like a jerk, I feel like it's okay to say, "Hey, you're acting like a jerk. What's up with that?" For that person to then come back and say, "Oh, well, now you're getting personal!" is incomprehensible to me.
Also, to have good friends, you have to treat them with respect. That's the way it should be, anyway.
I have no problem with name-calling, however, when one person is referring to another as a coward and a child, I find it rather amusing that said person is being quite cowardly and childish themself. I'm forced to sit here and say "Hi, you should talk."
Originally posted by Undertoad
I can't imagine how those little pathetic exchanges led to a complete departure of the forum. I wouldn't have thought they represented an "explanation" of a "side".
I looked at the whole response and decided I wouldn't want a friend who operated that way. Or one who trolled everyone - insulting Juju's BABY? Mocking Syc for being on Unemployment? Where IS the line, anyway? I am not only not down with that kind of crap as a target, I'm against it as an innocent bystander.
The baby thing was stupid. I'm not defending that. I can see David's point on the matter; however, I still think it was pretty dumb.
Are you
seriously bringing up the mocking of sycamore being unemployed? Give me a break, I've seen Dave and sycamore joke about that on here more than once. Just like they joke about looks and weight. Was it low of Dave to bring that up? Sure, just as low as it was of sycamore to bring up Dave's eye. Should it have ruined their friendship? No. Not in my opinion, and not in Dave's opinion either. Should friends act like adults and work through shit like this? Yes. They should.
As far as your knowledge on the matter goes, you chose not to ask questions. LIKE I SAID, if you had asked about it, I'm sure he would have been happy to explain. Since the whole thing had nothing to do with you personally, I would say that
your refusal to ask follow-up questions, and therefore the resulting ignorance of the situation, is your own fault.
It's really sweet how you defend your brother like that and feel so entitled to just flip blame around hoping to cause some kind of collateral damage.
He didn't get his way. He didn't get respect. And he got all pouty and took his football and ran home.
It ain't pretty, and neither are you defending it with your little complicated, invented additional drama.
Because I don't recall you being on the CC list on our little back and forth, so maybe you have no concept and should just shut the fuck up while you're ahead.
Originally posted by Undertoad
It's really sweet how you defend your brother like that and feel so entitled to just flip blame around hoping to cause some kind of collateral damage.
He didn't get his way. He didn't get respect. And he got all pouty and took his football and ran home.
It ain't pretty, and neither are you defending it with your little complicated, invented additional drama.
Because I don't recall you being on the CC list on our little back and forth, so maybe you have no concept and should just shut the fuck up while you're ahead.
I'm not defending my brother. The fact of the matter is that since I know what happened, and you are unwilling to learn, I know more about the situation from his point of view.
I think it's funny that you're completely willing to turn on him even though he did nothing to you. I think it's petty and childish of you, because you're a grown man. GROW THE FUCK UP.
Just like everyone else here, I am reading and posting my opinions. I'm not adding drama. I'm not getting into the business with sycamore and Dave, simply stating what I know to be true. I'm not taking sides. I've said not one thing to sycamore about the whole mess, because it's not my place to moderate...just like it's not your place to do so.
You're right, I wasn't on the CC list, but I have seen the emails. Therefore, I do have some concept of what went on, and like I said, I'm posting my opinion.
Also, don't fucking condescend to me.
Yo Hayward, there's a subtle difference between you and dave that perhaps you hadn't noticed. You have 46 posts of little but trolling crap. Dave has 2 years of thousands of postings of enormous substance. Therefore he is respected and you are not.
what a difference a few days make. I see sparks and smoke and slobber being flung about. A lot of people ranting with unusual vitriol. Passion and posturing by most everyone but Dave and Syc. Hmmmm, curiouser and curiouser.
Tony going off on Jeni out of frustration because he feels she's doing what Dave ought to be doing himself. At least that's my take on it, but I've been wrong before, once in 1967, but that's another story.
Dave, Mr in your face, over the top, throw an insult I'll throw back a grenade leaves in a snit?
Syc, drops a couple of turds and retreats to the high ground and suddenly has nothing to say. Even lets Rho use the computer for a change.
How in hell did April's thread stir up this kind of shit?
Is it my fault? If I apologized to hayward for calling her a lying cunt would that calm everyone down? Well if that's the case..... Fuck it, you can all leave.:p
So I don't know enough about what happened. All I know is what David told me, and the way it seems, I can understand why he felt prompted to do what he did. I just hope that all of this is worth losing a friendship over, and that's all.
I think it's funny that you're completely willing to turn on him even though he did nothing to you.
Turning...! He fuckin' LEFT, is THAT turning?
What WILL you do to throw blame anywhere else?
Yeah, I suspect I'm really at the bottom of this somehow, although I never asked to be or wanted to be, and it only serves to confirm why I'm an anti-social bastard.
I don't have many friends and I really really like it that way. Dave was not my "friend". He was some dude I know who lives 3 hours away. I have three friends that I treasure like gold and I would die for them. Everyone else, OUT OF THE GODDAMN POOL.
Also, this confirms to me why I don't like GTGs and didn't have any for a decade. And why I won't attend another one for a decade. Christ.
People: they fuckin' suck.
Originally posted by Undertoad
I don't have many friends and I really really like it that way. Dave was not my "friend". He was some dude I know who lives 3 hours away. I have three friends that I treasure like gold and I would die for them. Everyone else, OUT OF THE GODDAMN POOL.
Also, this confirms to me why I don't like GTGs and didn't have any for a decade. And why I won't attend another one for a decade. Christ.
People: they fuckin' suck.
Yes they sure do. But you know what? You don't have to let them get under your skin. The faster I learned that, the better off I was as a person, IMO. Quite frankly, my days of making friends are over (in other words, I'm not seeking 'new recruits', if you will). I have my "crew" back home in Baltimore that will
ALWAYS be my closest and dearest.
IF I happen to make more, then great. If not, then oh well, my life still goes on.
Please don't let this drama keep you from enjoying people that you
DO like and trust. It's not even worth it.
This had to be broken up due to size limits... my apologies in advance.
So, my email this holiday weekend has included a number of snippings from various posts here. That's disappointing, because it's compelled me to actually take time and respond.
Tony said the following: "The fact that it's supposed to be some deep dark secret says much more: it's pathetic game-playing". Those are some big words. Care to back them up?
You can't (they're opinion). The <b>fact</b> of the matter is that I chose to keep the details private out of respect for you and sycamore. I'm not sure about sycamore, but my respect for you was obviously very misplaced. So I'm opening it up, for everyone to see.
<b>The Eye</b>
The name calling with sycamore in the "Things you should do." thread started with my comment that, if you use standard viewing options, is at the very bottom of page 15. In it I stated: "I would think your number one goal, however, would be plastic surgery, you ugly bag of slop." He responded with "I'm there as soon as you get a new eye and a sparkling personality...", which is the <b>first</b> eye comment. I posted a frownie a few minutes later, one which I thought would convey humor (as I have previously stated in the aforementioned thread). It starts again a few posts later, when ladysycamore remarks "Not for all the money in the world!" regarding the idea of engaging in sexual intercourse with Ron Jeremy. I responded "And yet, you're with sycamore." - to which sycamore responded "And yet, Jenni's with you." Okay, nothing wrong here yet. We go back and forth for a little while longer. I said "And that being the case, earns the title 'Most Tolerant Person In The World'. (Rho gets the "Poorest Taste In The World" award. :P )", he said "That, or she's blinder than you.", making the <b>second</b> eye comment. I responded "I would think that would be quite obvious. (Incidentally, I'm the only one out of the four of us that doesn't wear glasses and has 20/10 vision. You fucking nerds.)" and he said "I may be a nerd, but how is your depth perception and peripheral vision?", making the <b>third</b> eye comment. We should note that up until this point, I haven't said anything about the eye.
My response is then "My peripheral vision is quite good. The depth perception obviously is non-existant. Neither have kept me from having a job while you were collecting unemployment these past few years. (What's it like to be a burden to the state?)", which, to me, continued along the same lines of "playful namecalling" that had been thriving in this thread. Nothing more of the eye is said until lumberjim says (on the fifth post on page 18) "no fair picking on a physical malady". I addressed this comment as follows:
As far as picking on me/joking about the eye... I would agree that it's a bit out of line, as far as the "in good nature" 'fighting' that sycamore and I do. Making fun of someone for something they can't change is... well, out of line. I call sycamore "ugly" or "stupid", neither of which he is. I don't joke about his weight either, 'cause it doesn't seem fun to make fun of him for an actual fault. It's definitely disappointing that he's not more creative in finding things to joke about, but I'm not losing any sleep over it either. Nothing anyone on the Cellar says about me actually bothers me. I've heard it all before. No matter what your insult or joke about my eye, someone has done worse. Like I said, it's more a disappointment than anything else.
sycamore's response is:
Of course, it usually helps if you tell someone that you'd prefer them not to joke about something...especially when they've laughed with you about it before. And of course, had he asked me to refrain, I would have been more than happy to...I would have even removed the posts with references to it.
Talk about disappointing...
We then continue like so:
Originally posted by dave
Like I said, it's not a huge deal. It's kind of like not winning the lottery.
I didn't care to make a big deal of it, 'cause it wasn't a big deal. You're a cool enough dude that it doesn't make our friendship a negative thing for me. Re-introducing me to Reverend Horton Heat (I hadn't really listened to much by him since I first heard of him when Toadies broke out), feeding me Philly cheesesteaks... there was something else cool about our friendship, wasn't there? Oh yeah, you're ugly.
Originally posted by sycamore
But enough of a deal to put it out here on Cellar?
Originally posted by sycamore
Well, the 2 times I was on unemployment were not due to any fault of my own (that I know of)--both were unavoidable situations. There wasn't anything I could do to change them (other than look for new jobs, which I did).
So, how would you explain the first comment? Was it said to "teach me a lesson", b/c I gave you shit about your eye?
At this point, I call him to task, because I am getting tired of this argument. It wasn't a big deal to me, and it apparently wasn't a big deal to him until I said something about <b>my own eye</b>.
Originally posted by dave
No, I was just fucking around with you. If I wanted to "teach you a lesson", I would have brought it up a long time ago. Like I said, it's not a huge deal.
I do consider being unemployed a situation that can generally be remedied if you work hard enough. I know that you were looking for a job, and it's all good. I didn't write it angry or anything. But "looking for a job" and "being so desperate to work that I was begging Steve's Prince of Steaks to hire me at minimum wage so I could have a paycheck" are two different things. I'm not saying you were a lazy bastard, but I seriously doubt you were scouring the city looking for any place that would take you. You were too busy posting on the Cellar. :)
I messaged sycamore that night on AOL Instant Messenger, trying to get a sense of whether or not he was actually upset. I asked him as much. He said something to the effect of "I think it was pretty shitty to bring it up on the Cellar". I asked "What, the eye thing?" and he said "Yes." Unfortunately, this is the only part of the whole ordeal that I don't have logs of, but the words were very close to what I have posted, if not exactly the same. I then indicated that I was only fucking around. "I'm glad you think this is funny" was his response. I told him that I was sorry that it upset him; he got offline without saying another word.
Now, unfortunately, I have not exchanged many words with sycamore since the incident, but I can only be left to believe that he's referring to my post in which I addressed lumberjim's comment (seeing as he said "Yes" when I asked if he was referring to the eye thing). As I have clearly demonstrated above, he first brought up my eye, and made <b>three</b> separate "mean-spirited" comments about it. I say "mean-spirited" because they weren't inquisitive like Bruce's. I don't mean to imply that he meant to hurt my feelings, only that the nature of the comments is not productive.
The next morning, the following has been posted by Undertoad in the same thread:
Originally posted by Undertoad
David, under the thread "things you should do" here is the thing you should not do:
You should not playfully start insulting people as a way of cementing your friendship if you have an invisible line they cannot cross.
This is inconsiderate at best, game-playing at worst. Suddenly you go from happily taunting to being hurt, and there is no way to know where that line is.
Either you have to drop the practice of insulting people as a way of being close to them, or you have to accept *anything* they hand back to you.
And by the way, just for future reference, I don't play that particular game; if you insult me as a way of getting closer to me, I will probably react poorly.
I felt he was <b>way</b> off base, and responded as follows:
Originally posted by dave
I never went to being hurt. The only thing I posted that in any way resembled that was the frownie, which I did because I thought it was funny. (Come on. Dave, He Who Hardly Ever Backs Down And Never Shuts Up, posting a single frownie. I thought it was funny.)
I didn't say anything until lumberjim said "no fair picking on a physical malady", where I then explained that while it wasn't my favorite thing in the world, I wasn't bawling over it either.
I went from happily taunting to... happily taunting while explaining my reaction to certain happy taunting. I even made it clear that there really isn't anything someone could say here that would hurt my feelings.
Now you say "Either you have to drop the practice of insulting people as a way of being close to them, or you have to accept *anything* they hand back to you." -- which is exactly what I've done. I didn't ask him to stop, I didn't explode at him. He's done it a number of times, and his creativity in it at times is quite funny. So I let it slide, 'cause it's not a big deal. When I said it was "out of line", maybe those weren't the best words. What I meant to convey was that it seemed abnormal for the sycamore. Not that I was distressed by it.
For future reference, I know you don't play that particular game, which is why there are threads in my weblog dedicated only to kissing your ass and making you feel rosy. You're a cool dude, so is sycamore. I'm not mad at him, though I am kind of bewildered that this has turned into such a big deal. I just thought it was appropriate that lumberjim's comment was addressed, and as the night went on, I realized that I hadn't done a proper job of offering my whole view (bwahaha, NBN).
You know, I'm just going to put it here again, so there's no question about it:
sycamore cracking eye jokes is not my favorite thing in the world, because if I could change it, I would, and yeah, it's kind of a shitty thing that happened. It's sort of like making rape jokes to a rape victim - one of those things you normally don't do. So when he first did it (it doesn't really phase me any more, because I expect it), I was taken aback. Now, it's kinda like "oh well". Like I said before, I'm not losing any sleep over it. I think about it for probably about two or three seconds, and then I'm over it. sycamore is a pretty cool dude, and I like him. He's made eye jokes for a while now, and I haven't stopped liking him. No one need get upset at people taking cracks at me (I can handle them), especially playful ones.
If you don't want something discussed on the Cellar, <b>don't mention it on the Cellar</b>. It's not like I started a fucking thread "sycamore picks on me unfairly about my eye". He made a number of cracks about it, jim said something, and I offered my thoughts - 'cause, you know, it's <b>my fucking eye</b>.
Tony, I respect your opinion, but I do not agree. I hope this has clarified my position, and I will email you about some further issues so as not to "air dirty laundry" in front of the crowd.
I then followed up with an email, the contents of which are posted below:
In and email dated 11/26/2003 at 10:15 AM Dave wrote:
I'm sorry, but this is fucking bullshit. sycamore makes numerous cracks
about the eye, I don't say anything. lumberjim makes a comment, I address
it (perhaps poorly), sycamore gets bent out of shape. I try to apologize
to him last night, he is unreceptive. I *know* he talked to you, because
there's no fucking way that you misread the thread that bad. Then you post
in the Cellar. The issue is no longer my eye but sycamore's hurt feelings.
Me posting about topic in Cellar that directly relates to me but was
brought up by someone else: Bad (apparently)
You posting about topic in Cellar that indirectly relates to you (you own
the medium) but was not brought up in the Cellar (therefore you are making
the first post about it): OK
How the fuck? If sycamore has a problem, he can write about it himself or
send me a fucking email. I tried to talk to him last night and he didn't
want to fucking hear it. If you want to talk about it, you can write me a
fucking email. You're entitled to an opinion, but posting it in the Cellar
where I can't openly respond to it (because - hey - I don't air issues in
there unless they've been brought up there) pretty well fucking sucked. I
didn't bring up my eye, dude. I didn't go "Oh, look at me, I only have one
eye." He started fucking joking about it, and he posted what, three or
four of those on the Cellar? And it gets discussed there and it's some
fucking taboo? No, I'm sorry. It's not. He brought it up, I didn't say
shit. I saw lumberjim's comment and basically wanted to say "It's not a
big deal, dude." At the same time, I didn't want everyone to think "hey,
it's cool to pick on disabled people!" so I tried to make it clear that
normally it is *not cool*, but between sycamore and I, we're good enough
buddies that it's not a problem.
I don't know why the fuck he's so bent out of shape about it ('cause he,
uh, won't fucking tell me, 'cause he, uh, apparently doesn't like
resolving issues?) so I'm really left to sit here and wonder how the fuck
something so stupid evolved into this.
Tony responded as follows, in an email at 10:41 AM:
Syc did call me, but I was previously taken aback by your frowny face.
If this whole thing is an Issue, I am happy to butt out and not try to moderate it. I'm agree that Terry should address it directly. I'm extremely sorry I got involved. I'm not good at human relations anyway.
The fact I own the place has no bearing.
Right off the bat, the last thing he says, "The fact that I own the place has no bearing." removes <b>any</b> relation he has to the issue. So essentially he's admitting "It's none of my fucking business", which is backed up by what he says above that.
I responded with the following two emails, to which I received no response:
Well, that's the thing, it wasn't an issue to me until he was acting like
a fucking woman last night in not wanting to talk about it. I got the
feeling, after reading his "Talk about being disappointed" post, that he
was actually upset about this and maybe about the "job" comment, which was
all I really had to hit back with (he doesn't have a physical disability
to make fun of). So I message him and I'm like "Dude, I was just screwing
around. You're not actually upset, are you?" His response was "I'm glad
you think it's funny." Well, yeah, we were joking around, so I did think
it was funny. So I'm like "Man, I'm not really upset, I was just trying to
address lumberjim, blah blah blah." He says "I think it was kind of shitty
to bring it up on the Cellar". ??????? I tried to talk more and he got
offline without saying anything else. I'm trying to talk to him about it
and he's unreceptive. I didn't mean to fucking upset him. As far as I can
tell, the job thing didn't upset him, just the eye thing (but like I said,
I don't know, 'cause he isn't fucking talking). Well. What do you expect?
If you say something on the Cellar, yeah, someone might talk about it.
I don't mean to be shitty with you, but it was like "Okay, don't read
Dave's posts at all or try to understand exactly what's going on." He
doesn't want it on the Cellar. He PUT it on the Cellar. And I still didn't
take issue with it!
If your whole direction was steered by the frownie, then I'm sorry that
wasn't more obvious. To me, it was obvious. I thought sycamore would get
it too 'cause yes, I *have* laughed with him about it in the past, and to
me, the thought of Dave posting a single frownie is fucking absurd. Which
is why I did it. I laughed at it. I'm sorry not everyone got it.
And by the way, I don't mind that you're trying to help, because even when
I disagree with you, I know that your intentions are good. I might doubt
your words, but I believe in the Tone. But I just felt like... what the
fuck am I explaining this for if no one is going to read it?
At this point in time, I thought that things between Tony and I are okay, and he had given me no outward indication that would lead me to believe anything else.
<b>The Departure</b>
When I got home from work that evening, I messaged sycamore on AOL Instant Messenger. The conversation went as follows:
dave (11:48:50 PM): are we on not-speaking terms still?
sycamore (11:49:28 PM): beyond cellar, yes
dave (11:50:12 PM): that gonna wear off any time soon or no?
sycamore (11:50:59 PM): don't know
dave (11:51:11 PM): alright dude. have a good one.
I was pretty disappointed, because I had been trying to salvage the relationship and it didn't seem as though he wanted to do so. I was also still disappointed with Tony's handling of the situation, though I had (mistakenly, it turns out) believed it to be in good faith. That having been said, I didn't feel that the situation was workable for the Cellar. The whole time I have been there, sycamore and I have been friends, and I felt disgusted and disappointed enough with the whole situation to call it quits. I would salvage the friendships I had, leave the rest behind and get on with my life. I wrote my goodbye post and went to sleep.
As it turns out, things are not that simple!
I emailed Tony the next day. Twice. They said the following:
email to Tony, subject "so, by now you've read it"
And the question is, are we still cool, or is this an unrecoverable sin against you? I'll work with either but I vastly prefer the former. (I need someone to buy a freaking Xbox for.)
email to Tony, subject "since he brought you into it..."
here's the grand finale.
[ -- last conversation between sycamore and I, as posted above but with screennames complete -- ]
we both infiltrated basically every thread and i just don't see it working right with such a big schism. i'm dismayed, obviously, but that's life. someone(s) will fill my spot on the cellar, i might actually get something done at work, and life will go on.
thanks to you personally for hosting it, and for being a cool dude. i hope you and i are still cool, but i'll understand if we're not. have a good one.
dave
As is pretty clear, I'm trying to salvage whatever it is I have with Tony. He responds, and I'm going to copy this whole email right here into this post.
Tony's email to me, subject "Re: so, by now you've read it"
Good luck in the future.
We all know that he didn't actually mean "Good luck, dude!" - he meant "Fuck you." Which is fine. He's entitled to say whatever he wants.
I responded:
email to Tony, subject "Re: so, by now you've read it"[/i]
You too then, sir.
And that was that!
<b>lumberjim's thread</b>
lumberjim started this thread, and it's drawn a fair number of posts. A few different people have sent me portions of it, and I wasn't going to respond, but there are a few points I think that need to be brought up, and so I will do so.
lumberjim
dave got his feelings hurt, took his ball and left.
No. I left for reasons stated above and in my farewell post, which have been expanded upon in this thread by others. (Believe it or not, a couple of people actually <b>understand</b> why I left, and have said as such in email.)
lumberjim
ok, jeni. whatever. I know he didn't get his feelings hurt about the eye. When I started this thread and the poll, I was dissapointed, and I was trying to egg him into returning. This seemed like such a little thing to quit over. I would have thought that someone who had as much time and supposed effort invested would be harder to shake. So he and syc had a problem. What about the other people he liked? To bail outlike that is cowardly. If he was just sick of the cellar, he should have said so instead of burrying sycamore by laying the blame at his feet.
Makes me think he's got hurt feelings. I don't know why I give a shit. When I first joined, I assumed he must be one of the moderators or maybe the admin, because he was treated like one. He was respected. THIS just makes him look childish. Like he just wants the attention. What a way to go.
I realize now, however, that even if he DID return, it wouldn't be the same. The damage is done.
I have lost respect for him, and his words wouldn't mean as much ( at least to me) [not that he should care about what I think] anyway. Too bad.
Whatever.
I guess it's good that I don't answer to you or value your opinion on my life then, isn't it? It's not such a "little thing" (as I have said above and will demonstrate below). I tried to fix a problem, the other party was unreceptive, and I looked at the whole picture and made a choice. Angelus will be happy, others will be disappointed. They will get over it, and anyone that really cares to know me can private message me or email me.
I don't want attention, which is another one of the reasons I didn't make a huge deal about it and post everything when I left. As for it making me look "childish" - what, trying to resolve a conflict is childish? You say nothing of the other players here? Why, because one of them is so grown up as to call names behind someone's back? If your measure of what is childish and what is not was the one that mattered, then I think this world would be a much worse place than it is. Perhaps you should wonder why you feel yourself so qualified to write about something on which you are largely ignorant? Because until these posts, you didn't really have any fucking idea what happened here.
Undertoad
He always becomes increasingly abusive and then burns all his bridges and bolts?
How many friends does he have left, with such immature boorish behavior?
What binds you to attempt to defend this kind of stuff without being able to talk about it? Oh, OK, fine, it wasn't cowardly, it was some other form of unspeakable bullshit that permits him and only him to be a total ass.
I for one don't care much about the reason. The fact that it's supposed to be some deep dark secret says much more: it's pathetic game-playing, and the most pathetic thing of all is that the game is still going on and you've been brought into it and are playing it, days after the fact.
Cowardly behavior. As LJ says, pussy. Pussy pussy pussy.
Monday his forum is archived.
Er, where did I become increasingly abusive toward sycamore? He was calling me names and you said nothing. I respond, and you come in like the fucking savior. You then acknowledge privately that you're not very good at human relations. Now here you are, acting like an expert.
I have a number of very good friends, and the reason I am blessed as such is because they too <b>act like adults</b> when it's necessary. Fucking around is all well and good 95% of the time, but when relationships are on the line, sycamore and you are apparently incapable of acting your age. He is 28, and you just turned 40. This is what you're capable of? Taking to a public forum to discuss a private matter that you declined to discuss with me when you had the chance? Oh, what a big man you are! You are 40 going on 8.
Undertoad
I can't imagine how those little pathetic exchanges led to a complete departure of the forum. I wouldn't have thought they represented an "explanation" of a "side".
I looked at the whole response and decided I wouldn't want a friend who operated that way. Or one who trolled everyone - insulting Juju's BABY? Mocking Syc for being on Unemployment? Where IS the line, anyway? I am not only not down with that kind of crap as a target, I'm against it as an innocent bystander.
You don't want a friend who operates that way, and yet you're friends with sycamore? 'Cause he operates pretty much the same way. You know, with namecalling and all.
Here's where it gets even more absurd, folks! Talking about juju's baby or "Mocking Syc for being on Unemployment? Where IS the line, anyway?" - apparently not at making fun of people with disabilities, because <b>you didn't say a goddamn word about that!</b> Once when he was on the phone while in the TT on the way down here and <b>three</b> times in the "Things you should do" thread sycamore made a joke comment about my eye. Where were you then, standing up for decency?
The fact of the matter is, you're <b>not</b> against it, and <b>you're a liar for saying so</b>. On 09/28/2003 you posted the following to LUVBUGZ in the "MotherF#$%@*!!!!!!" thread: "I warned you not to share a thread with me, you worthless fucking attention whore." You're not only not against it, but you do it as well!
I made a habit of calling LUVBUGZ names, and you privately messaged me your approval:
Of LUVBUGZ, I said to you "See, as you recall, I asked you about her a month or so ago. 'Cause I knew then that she was a babbling retard. And she's proven me right. Good lord dumb people peeve me. Who allowed her to get a computer?" and you responded "True. It did take about 300 messages for it to be proven to be completely without any redeeming qualities whatsoever. But true."
After you and I were ripping into her on the forums, you messaged me the following:
"You're a cat person, and you don't live in the city, so I know you've seen when a cat catches some prey and brings it home and plays with it.
That's what we're basically doing."
You said, on 10/03/2003 in a private message: "Thinking about this another way, back in the day we used to put annoying users through an organized silent treatment that was absolutely effective. For LB, this treatment would be devastating. I mean I almost hesitate to suggest it because it's so harsh, but imagine what would happen if none of her posts resulted in so much as a "who cares" post in response?
For an <b>attention whore</b>, that's like torture."
The emphasis was mine, but the words are yours, and the hostility is undeniable when referenced against your posts and private messages.
I said to you, after an attack on LUVBUGZ, "JESUS CHRIST SHE IS STUPID." and you responded "Well yer doin' the good work these days. I can't right now, for some reason, but everyone knows and agrees with you and is happy to see it."
Of my picking on LUVBUGZ and in response to something Matt had said and I forwarded to you, you had the following to say: "Well either way, it's vital important work you're doing.. keep it up."
Does this sound like the type of person that is against the namecalling behavior? Not only not standing up to it (until I am gone) but <b>encouraging</b> it privately?
Undertoad
It's really sweet how you defend your brother like that and feel so entitled to just flip blame around hoping to cause some kind of collateral damage.
He didn't get his way. He didn't get respect. And he got all pouty and took his football and ran home.
It ain't pretty, and neither are you defending it with your little complicated, invented additional drama.
Because I don't recall you being on the CC list on our little back and forth, so maybe you have no concept and should just shut the fuck up while you're ahead.
You are smart, Tony, but you are in an indefensible position. Jen is calling you on it, and instead of addressing her points, you dismiss them with an ad hominem attack. As has been explored many times on the Cellar, all this does is make you look like a fool. (You've succeeded. I am supported quite strongly in private emails whose authors concur that you are way off base. I'm not going to post them so as to keep said persons from incurring your wrath, but from the show of public support, I would guess you have perhaps three people that agree with you.)
She's not flipping blame around; she's simply looked at all the facts (she's read all communications, including the ones I hadn't saved) and has made an opinion. Your attempt to discredit her is insulting only to <b>you</b>, because it shows that you don't have a leg to stand on in this argument and are forced to resort to ad hominem attacks to defend your indefensible position.
Undertoad on 11/24/2003
My impression was that any look of toughness built in to the dude (as is built in to most large-structured folks), is reduced in person by his genuine and pleasant demeanor. My considered opinion is that dave is not an asshole. I would even put that in writing and sign it.
This was <b>after</b> the baby comment. Yet somehow it works its way into this argument? The day before this whole thing broke, you and I were talking about our online gaming future together! We have talked multiple times about Jenni and I moving to Oaks to rent your spare rooms. Your considered opinion, just two days before this started, was "that dave is not an asshole. I would even put that in writing and sign it." All the quoted text in the first part of this was enough to change your mind?
Either way, you're an extremely poor judge of character (by making friendly when I'm a true asshole, or calling me a true asshole when I'm trying to be a friend). So what makes you think your opinion on this is valid <b>now</b>? Suddenly you're a good judge of character?
<b>Tony</b>
I think Tony identifies with sycamore's unemployment because Tony, too, has been unable to find work. It's my contention that my comment about sycamore's unemployment was one of the motivating factors for Tony to join the discussion and admonish me publicly. (Notice how he calls me "David" in his post to the "Things you should do" thread, as a parent would address a child, even though he has never called me "David" before.) He identifies with sycamore because they have known each other longer, and because sycamore called him and brought him into this. I should have been smart and recruited Tony, but I didn't think this was going to be a big deal. And hey, why not attack the guy that's not around to defend himself? You sure do look like a champion now.
So here we are, and you are acting like a child with hurt feelings. You say to Jen that she is trying to "flip blame around" - and you're acting like you and sycamore are blameless! I have <b>apologized</b> to sycamore for hurting his feelings, and <b>he did not want to hear it</b>. What makes a man more than being able to say "I was wrong, and I am sorry"? To you, it's apparently calling names behind someone's back.
What it all boils down to, Tony, is that you are a 40 year old <b>boy</b>. You are, for whatever reason, mentally immature. You're smart, and so most of the time you can pass yourself off. But when you get really called on it, you resort to personal attacks instead of meaningful rebuttals.
As someone that really cares about you, I want to raise one last idea before I'm gone for good. You're not a very introspective person. You have a hard time really diagnosing issues with yourself. Your mental immaturity is one of them. I hate to say it, but this is where having a male role model in your life would have helped. You have suffered without it. And it's sad, because I do want you to succeed and find happiness. If you don't believe this is real or affecting your life, I don't think you'll need to look farther than your "soon-to-be ex" for evidence. And if you think that had nothing to do with you, you need to think again. People don't fuckin' suck. Some are good, some are bad. Most are in between. Saying they suck is just an excuse for your inability to have a meaningful relationship with most of them.
What this has shown me is that, like most of us, you're struggling to make it through life. You've got a long ways to go, Tony. I hope that you can start acting like an adult and find that happiness.
I can only hope that you'll take this to heart. A week ago, you probably would have. I know that some things have changed since then, but a lot of things haven't. When you're ready to start acting like an adult, maybe the number of friends you have will exceed three.
I'm really amazed that so little I've posted results in a shitstorm so large.
But I would like to take back the notion that you're a good guy. It's true, you are right - I was wrong. I admit it, I'm a terribly poor judge of people, and it turns out that my original opinion was wrong: you're a complete and total ass.
I definitely made the right decision not getting closer to you. You treat the people who are close to you like shit because it solves your own needs. Have a nice life.
"Not very introspective" funny. It is to laugh. You don't know me at all.
So wait, is dave back or not?
See, having read the above several times ... I still don't fucking get it.
And I'm the one here that actually has people skills. Okay, so they're primarily crazy-people skills, but you know what I mean.
Originally posted by wolf
So wait, is dave back or not?
See, having read the above several times ... [b]I still don't fucking get it.
And I'm the one here that actually has people skills. Okay, so they're primarily crazy-people skills, but you know what I mean. [/B]
Yeah..I also did a :confused: when I saw it...
Dude sure does talk a lot for somebody who's not here.
Ah yes, and one more thing:
And the question is, are we still cool, or is this an unrecoverable sin against you?
Presenting this A-B as a "choice" is just more games I don't play.
I guess it's good that I don't answer to you or value your opinion on my life then, isn't it? It's not such a "little thing" (as I have said above and will demonstrate below). I tried to fix a problem, the other party was unreceptive, and I looked at the whole picture and made a choice. Angelus will be happy, others will be disappointed. They will get over it, and anyone that really cares to know me can private message me or email me.
I don't want attention, which is another one of the reasons I didn't make a huge deal about it and post everything when I left. As for it making me look "childish" - what, trying to resolve a conflict is childish? You say nothing of the other players here? Why, because one of them is so grown up as to call names behind someone's back? If your measure of what is childish and what is not was the one that mattered, then I think this world would be a much worse place than it is. Perhaps you should wonder why you feel yourself so qualified to write about something on which you are largely ignorant? Because until these posts, you didn't really have any fucking idea what happened here.
I just call them like I see them, Nancy. And FYI, i roughed syc up pretty good on IM for not letting you up. And who gives a shit what i do and dont know about you and the vaunted past. What i know is what I see. You acting like a sissy, syc ignoring the problem, and toad flippin his lid.
the bottom line is this:
YOU quit
They're still here.
come back and stop being a cunt ( bruce told me to say that) ;)
Fuck damn shit. Crap. Fart bitch ass hell. This shit is giving me fucking Tourette's.
I'll resist the "you two are both cool so make nicey-nice." But I have some observations to share. Ignore them if you like.
Tony: I think you may need to remind yourself that though you mean to participate in discussions as an equal here, you are the Cellar Master. For one to publicly side against you is akin to siding against the community, so keep that in mind when doling out damning judgements against the people here. To declare a long-time, much-enjoyed Cellar contributor a "complete and total ass," seemingly in response to a single thread that didn't involve you directly, and seemingly as a complete 180 from your previous opinion, seems heavy-handed and misguided. If there is more to it than what is publicly visible, then you might consider making it all public, or keeping it all private... otherwise nobody knows quite what to make of it, and members here may learn to fear your judgement as irrational and unpredictable. And if you are dismissive of the previous statement, then you trivialize this community, which you built. Here, your comments weigh in heavier than everyone's else's. And they always will.
I respect the hell out of you Tony, not only for your insight and intellect, but for many of your actions which I have observed indirectly on the Cellar. I strongly disagree with some of the things you have posted regarding this whole mess, but it's worth noting that I do not intend to stop respecting you just because I strongly disagree with something you posted. If it started happening consistently, maybe. But when someone I respect and/or care about behaves in a way that troubles me, my first reaction is not to projectile-vomit the person from my life, but to say "What the hell, dude?" and try to understand where he/she is coming from. If it turns out that I am uncomfortable with where he/she is coming from, THEN the relationship is in trouble. But perhaps I'll learn in listening that I didn't have all the information, or was failing to see the situation from the other's point of view. But that's just me.
So... what the hell, dude?
Also, your comment of "Either you have to drop the practice of insulting people as a way of being close to them, or you have to accept *anything* they hand back to you" would have been best directed at both Dave and Syc... both use this practice. To insinuate that Dave is the only one of the pair doing ths misrepresents the situation. In fact, many would argue that Syc's initial comments about Dave's eye were much worse than Dave's later comments about Syc's unemployment... and Dave didn't even get offended about Syc's comments, as he explained later.
Dave: I can understand, if not condone, your reasons for leaving... from what I can see, it was a poor solution to a complicated problem. I saw the humor in the frowny face thing, but I can why others didn't. I was perplexed when some seemed to view your jabs at joblessness as worse than Syc's comments about your eye. Sometimes the "I can see both sides" position is a shitty place to be.
Yeah, I know you don't care if I condone your reasons for leaving. Nor should you... it was your choice to make and you know more about it than I do. But I think Red put it best... "the place you live is that much more drab and empty that they're gone."
I can't fucking believe it's not butter.
Originally posted by hot_pastrami
To declare a long-time, much-enjoyed Cellar contributor a "complete and total ass,"
Dave was behaving like Dave ... this is why I'm having trouble seeing the point of contention, I guess.
(It's really about the lack of motherfucking pad gai, isn't it?)
It doesn't matter who's right or wrong.
This whole thing is a case of bullshit getting blown WAY out of proportion and the three idiots involved being too damn stupid to realize what a fuss they were making over nothing.
Instead you retards would say "I don't believe he's so upset over just a few lines" and then you're proceed to rant on and on and on about how he's practically the modern day antichrist.
Yeah I don't know any of you and I've only been on this board for a few weeks. Well maybe that’s exactly what gives me the clear view of this idiotic mess.
Dave:
You're a fucktard. Learn when to shut up. You don't have to have the last say in everything and it's alright if somebody wrongs you just once. Let this shit go. You don't need your apology accepted today. Can't you just let the guy sleep on it for a week maybe?
Also, you can't leave a community on a bad note and expect people to speak kindly of you. Don't come back just to post your "But I was right!" posts. As said previously. You don't always need to have a last say in everything. So come back or STFU.
Sycamore:
You're a fucktard. Dave claims that you two were 'friends' for years? Well fuck that. What kind of a friend doesn't accept a sincere apology? And over what? A bad joke? Big fucking deal. Friends are supposed to joke about each other without being insulted much. If the line is crossed, you say so and accept the apology. You don't make a huge deal out of it. That’s retarded. You don't go calling up your other friends and getting them invovled in the shit. That shows how immature you are and unable to deal with problems you managed to get yourself involved in. Next time somebody makes a joke you don't like, say so and let it go at that, otherwise you'll run out of friends damn fast.
Tony:
What the fuck? Next time you get called, tell them to work it out themselves. Anyone with half a working brain could tell that it was not their place to get involved. So Sycamore called...so what? Maybe he just needed to talk. You didn't have to get the whip out and lash Dave into submission with it. Dave's an asshole. I'm an asshole. Big deal. So Dave's being an asshole to Sycamore...whoopdie doo... Wasn't much of a big deal when he was being an ass to me. I didn't have much of a problem with him calling my gf stupid. That’s what assholes do. You expect that online when dealing with assholes. It's not a big deal. It's not taken seriously. The shit about Juju's baby was also fucked up. Who gives a shit about online insults/jokes especially when you know that they do not carry any real substance?
So here you have the case of 3 idiots blowing a stupid joke/insult way out of proportion. You can blame dave for leaving all you want...but fuck if he hadn't I bet you'd rant about who was right or wrong till the end of time.
Retards.
I've always deeply resented that "Cellar Master" situation and for a while I posted anonymously to try to get around it.
Perhaps I will again.
Beestie's Rx:
MF Pad Gai (a good start);
Hash brownies (mellow out the hard feelings);
Bud Light (crank up the "I love you, mannnnnn"); and
Respect (don't let it happen again)
I'm just sensing that the merciless knife-twisting as a means of coaxing everyone back to the table is (to say the least) less than effective so if everyone who has chosen to participate has gotten all the bile out of their system, maybe we can try something else.
Just one interested bystander's observation.
For the record...
I did not ask Toad or anyone else to say or do anything regarding the matter between myself and Mr. Ham.
Last week, I called El Sapo about hosting my website (which Dave hosted until I pulled it from his server last week). He asked why I wanted to move it, and only then did I say anything about the situation with Dave and me.
The bottom line is this: Based on various factors, I have decided that I should not be friends with Dave, and I've communicated to him as much. Initially, I wasn't ready to communicate with him after the blowup with his eye b/c well, quite frankly, I was really pissed off at him. Sometimes, you have to let the anger work through you.
I know that some people may not understand why I reacted the way I did to that or why I've made what some might consider an irrational decision...sometimes, people just don't see things on the same wavelength. But I can tell you that I've given it a lot of thought and have discussed it with a few peeps, and I think I've made the right decision.
This is all I'm saying about it here on Cellar. If you really care to know more, you're welcome to PM me and I'll give you the summary version. Other than that, I think it's time to let this shit go and move on.
Originally posted by Undertoad
I've always deeply resented that "Cellar Master" situation and for a while I posted anonymously to try to get around it.
Perhaps I will again.
would you like any help selecting a name??? I could talk to slang for you.....
....or would that defeat the purpose?
beestie, what else would you suggest? pumping sunshine up their asses? whining? threats? reward based coersion?
Or should we just accept that dave is gone and move on?
I'd really like to see him stay. I like him. So I'm doing what I can to force the little bitch to come back.....:)
Originally posted by Undertoad
I've always deeply resented that "Cellar Master" situation and for a while I posted anonymously to try to get around it.
Perhaps I will again.
Aaugggh!! Not MORE dummy accounts! Oh, where does it end?
Besides, I'll know it's you. The posts will be from 1-3 sentences, with extremely compact, witty insight.
Originally posted by juju
Aaugggh!! Not MORE dummy accounts! Oh, where does it end?
Besides, I'll know it's you. The posts will be from 1-3 sentences, with extremely compact, witty insight.
that could describe bruce.....
....unless......
Utoad has really been bruce all along.....????
has anyone ever seen them together in the same place at the same time.....?????
Originally posted by lumberjim
that could describe bruce.....
....unless......
Utoad has really been bruce all along.....????
has anyone ever seen them together in the same place at the same time.....?????
Now that you mention it, UT wears glasses, and Bruce is always wearing that cape and blue tights....
[size=1](NOTE: I don't know if UT really wears glasses)[/size]
Originally posted by lumberjim
has anyone ever seen them together in the same place at the same time.....?????
Yes.
Unless you want to go to full conspiracy mode and posit that UT hired someone to play bruce! :D
I've stayed out of the current train derailment because I don't know anybody involved well enough to have an opinion.
But I will say that I've hardly ever seen a sysop (if you'll pardon the archaism) who throws his weight around as little as UT has over the years. If he thinks somebody's being an ass (whether that opinion is or is not justified), I for one don't think he should restrain himself from expressing that opinion because he's afraid some people might feel he's lording it over us as The Cellar Master[size=1](tm)[/size].
Originally posted by hot_pastrami
Now that you mention it, UT wears glasses, and Bruce is always wearing that cape and blue tights....
[size=1](NOTE: I don't know if UT really wears glasses)[/size]
You never, never, ever, have or will see me in tights. Ever. :p
Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
You never, never, ever, have or will see me in tights. Ever. :p
Promises, promises. That's what you said about pink legwarmers, too... and how long did THAT last? A week?
But I thought YOU wore the pink legwarmers. You said they were a nice contrast to the Camaro.
Originally posted by sycamore
But I thought YOU wore the pink legwarmers. You said they were a nice contrast to the Camaro.
Well you know, I'd be
lying if I said I haven't worn pink legwarmers. Today. But if it makes you feel any better, I don't know how to finish this sentence.
Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
You never, never, ever, have or will see me in tights. Ever. :p
"Let's go get out of these women's clothes, and back into our tights."
--
Robin Hood: Men in TightsOriginally posted by juju
Besides, I'll know it's you. The posts will be from 1-3 sentences, with extremely compact, witty insight.
hahahahahaha. good. lord.
Bruce and UT have been in the same place at the same time in separate bodies. We have pictures.
(and I know it wasn't a fake UT, since I met him many years ago.)
thanks for clearing that up, wolf. I was beginning to worry.
Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
You never, never, ever, have or will see me in tights. Ever. :p
Not even if I ask really, really nicely and bat my eyelashes?
[SIZE=1]
Edited for grammar.[/SIZE]
Although it's true that no one person makes The Cellar™ I will miss Dave's ability to kick it up a notch (yeah, I'm comparing him to Emeril). I wish him nothing but the best.
Originally posted by wolf
Bruce and UT have been in the same place at the same time in separate bodies. We have pictures.
(and I know it wasn't a fake UT, since I met him many years ago.)
Sorry, UT, but I discovered your little ruse
long ago. I won't be fooled again!
Originally posted by wolf
Not even if I ask really, really nicely and bat my eyelashes?
[SIZE=1]Edited for grammar.[/SIZE]
Please don't make me do it in public.:blush:
On the subject of the whole Dave/Syc/UT thing: Feh. That is all.
Now on the subject of Master Toad, the Cellar God: bullshit. I realize I only post now and again based purely on my amount of free time, not quite a regular as much as an irregular, so to speak. But I've been here for a while. I'll admit the first time I had a real disagreement with UT I was a little nervous. Know what? There no negative repercussions. None whatsoever. I maybe even got more respect because I posted my point of view intelligently enough for serious discussion, against a guy that is known to be quite intelligent.
My point is that having UT as mod and regular poster is part of what makes the Cellar what it is. You don't have to worry about a thunderbolt crashing from heaven here. If UT has a problem with you, he'll kick your ass in the forums same as anyone else. He made his extreme dislike of Lovebugz pretty public, but didn't kick her, just tried to chase her off using mundane means available to anyone. Much like the anti-April campaign that is running currently. Point is, fear of Mod UT is misplaced, and jokes aside, another dummy account is not what we need right now
Oh, I disagree. What about that initial apprehension? It's not meaningless. Some people will never post because of that initial apprehension. Some people will still have it every time they post.
And even if you personally don't have those kinds of feelings, it's pretty obvious that some other people do, and that it affects the community.
Plus, this is subtle, but notice how all this stuff happened after moderator UT actually did institute harsher moderation and actually disabled some accounts from posting. I may have missed something in all my reading but I think some of this stuff even happened in the same thread where this became apparent.
I think that a whole lot of the fear of going against UT isn't about his ownership status. He might run the place but most lurk before they ever post and should know he doesn't kick people easily. More, I think going against UT can be a bit daunting because his arguements tend to be solid, researched and well thought out. This doesn't mean he's always right, but it does mean that if you disagree you better be prepared with solid reasoning. But there are several people on the board of similar standing as far as that goes.
What's more, I think having THE Mod in regular discussions makes the site less formal. UT less overlordish, if you will. I can see your point Dag, but consider the cost of a mysterious Mod that only steps in when decisions have to be made. It dehumanizes him, and through him the board. As far as people being intimidated, I think the stronger and smarter ones won't back down, even if they fear being kicked. Speaking for myself, those are the people I most want here anyway.
As far as the harsher moding goes, it was formally called for, (by Dave actually) and generally approved beforehand. Dummy accounts were getting out of hand, a response was called for. If you don't like the response, then forgive UT for being human and doing the best he can. Overall though, I'd say the response was called for, by those of us that use the board, not some heavy-handed slapping down of rules from above.
I've followed this ordeal and have gone back several times to re-read the matter at hand, and I still don't know why everyone's got their panties in a bunch. IMO, dave is being a pussy, sycamore didn't do anything out of his ordinary, but got way pissed at the fallout, and UT got dragged into it b/c it's his board. Other than that, this whole thing is rather petty and sophomoric. If dave wants to leave, freakin let him, I have a feeling he'll miss this place a whole lot more than it will him.
Keep on keepin on.
GBA
DNK
Oh, I disagree. What about that initial apprehension? It's not meaningless. Some people will never post because of that initial apprehension. Some people will still have it every time they post.
And even if you personally don't have those kinds of feelings, it's pretty obvious that some other people do, and that it affects the community.
Plus, this is subtle, but notice how all this stuff happened after moderator UT actually did institute harsher moderation and actually disabled some accounts from posting. I may have missed something in all my reading but I think some of this stuff even happened in the same thread where this became apparent.
wait a minute.
Toad knows when to get heavy. I like it that he participates in discussions, has opinions, regrets, concerns, feelings. Just like if he was a real person. I came on this site thru the image of the day, but the thread that KEPT me here (I'll assume for the sake of argument that the fact that I AM here is a positive) was toad's emotional distance thread. I instantly cared about him, and the other people obviously do too. I understand that he got a little wacky with the antisocial comments he made regarding his and dave's friendship unravelling, but I don't believe that that is the way he REALLY feels .....at least most of the time. He is an important contributor to the discussions and most of the time the fact that he IS the MOD doesn't come into the equation. If you are afraid that what you might have to say would irk tony, just read some of these other fuckers' posts, and settle down, beavis. he doesn't break balls or flex. wtf?
Originally posted by juju
There is so much concern about name-calling and getting "personal". For some reason it's seen as off-limits and "morally reprehensible".
But there is also truth. When someone acts like a jerk, I feel like it's okay to say, "Hey, you're acting like a jerk. What's up with that?" For that person to then come back and say, "Oh, well, now you're getting personal!" is incomprehensible to me.
Also, to have good friends, you have to treat them with respect. That's the way it should be, anyway.
And part of that respect is being able to tell someone that they're buttheads....and allowing them the same freedom. ju, that's something that we've had........... but we work it out. (although, this time you've gone too far...)
ya know... i know you guys are all cyberpeople and none of you are real... but there's a half a dozen or so of you cyberpeople that i really like...syc, UT, dave. give a little room for crisis, and let everyone feel maligned..and then cut it out.
keep peace in the family, as my mother would say.
dar
Originally posted by FileNotFound
It doesn't matter who's right or wrong.
This whole thing is a case of bullshit getting blown WAY out of proportion and the three [b] idiots involved being too damn stupid to realize what a fuss they were making over nothing.
So here you have the case of 3 idiots blowing a stupid joke/insult way out of proportion. You can blame dave for leaving all you want...but fuck if he hadn't I bet you'd rant about who was right or wrong till the end of time.
Retards. [/B]
ya know............. this is the perfect response.
now -- let's have some chocolate and play nice again.
or...you guys play nice again, and i'll have the chocolate.
or..... play anyway you want, and i'll be over here with a box of godiva.
Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
You never, never, ever, have or will see me in tights. Ever. :p
rats.
DNK, I've been finding myself saying in IM's and PM's to various people that I believe the stress predates the eye/unemployment thing. Thing is, since the relationship between these three was only partially on the board we won't catch it all. Missing details if you will. I also still say that what is on the board shows problems before this.
Dar, it may be a bit late for that. Um... the playing part. The chocolates and tights part is still open....
Originally posted by Whit
I realize I only post now and again based purely on my amount of free time, not quite a regular as much as an irregular, so to speak.
With over 800 posts to your name, I think it's fair to say that you're a regular.
Originally posted by Whit
DNK, I've been finding myself saying in IM's and PM's to various people that I believe the stress predates the eye/unemployment thing. Thing is, since the relationship between these three was only partially on the board we won't catch it all. Missing details if you will. I also still say that what is on the board shows problems before this.
I'm sure you are right, with the pre-exisitng conditions of the said three, but I'm a little confused as to why so many people give such a large fuck about it. I suppose my ignorance can be written off as a somewhat newbie, only being around for about 6 months, but it still amazes me the amout of effort being shown. Again, petty and sophomoric.
But thanks for addressing my semi-rant.
GBA
DNK
DNK, no problem. I don't know if you realize this, but most of the regular posters are from the philly. Important 'cause most of them have gathered a few times. They aren't just faceless names to each other. They're real people that have spoken and hung out. So it can be more personnal than if they just knew each other by screen name.
Also, you hang here a while and the "community" you so often hear about around here becomes more real. You get to know peoples styles and have a sense of their personality. These are three of the biggest posters around. Plus they were friends on the side.
The Cellar will be just fine. But it definately changed for those of us in for the long haul. That's what the big deal is.
Dar, for you mesh pantyhose but not tights.:D
Whit, You've been spot on in the last few posts. UT is an awesome adversary on the boards. I posted one time my admiration of his resourses and ability and my trepidation at going up against him in an argument. But when the time came that I disagreed (WalMart) I really didn't fear repercussions because I'd seen him always fight fair. I think sometimes he bends over backwards to be fair and that's got to lead to some frustration for him.
So we've witnessed a great pissing contest and everyone got wet. Since there are no winners in any pissing contest I guess we all lost. I'll miss Dave, I thought he was an asset, but the Cellar will continue to evolve. So lets get back to arguing about stuff and not people (except pols). :cool:
Originally posted by juju
Besides, I'll know it's you. The posts will be from 1-3 sentences, with extremely compact, witty insight.
Originally posted by Dagnabit
Oh, I disagree. What about that initial apprehension? It's not meaningless. Some people will never post because of that initial apprehension. Some people will still have it every time they post.
And even if you personally don't have those kinds of feelings, it's pretty obvious that some other people do, and that it affects the community.
Plus, this is subtle, but notice how all this stuff happened after moderator UT actually did institute harsher moderation and actually disabled some accounts from posting. I may have missed something in all my reading but I think some of this stuff even happened in the same thread where this became apparent.
Sorry, UT, but you will have to try harder than that to fool me.
Originally posted by Whit
DNK, no problem. I don't know if you realize this, but most of the regular posters are from the philly.
No, I didn't realize this. And yes, I see how this complicates the situation.
Originally posted by Whit
Also, you hang here a while and the "community" you so often hear about around here becomes more real. You get to know peoples styles and have a sense of their personality. These are three of the biggest posters around. Plus they were friends on the side.
I'm recognize the 'community', but I didn't realize it was taken so seriously. I mean, I have real life issues that FAR outweigh anything done here, as I'm sure most do, but since they were "friends" on the side, this crossed over.
Originally posted by Whit
& The Cellar will be just fine. But it definately changed for those of us in for the long haul. That's what the big deal is.
Well, whatever. I'm not losing sleep, just time at work. Hee heee.
GBA
DNK
Originally posted by DNK
I'm recognize the 'community', but I didn't realize it was taken so seriously. I mean, I have real life issues that FAR outweigh anything done here, as I'm sure most do, but since they were "friends" on the side, this crossed over.
Well, naturally we all have real-life problems that outweigh the happenings here. But that doesn't preclude us from being concerned and affected by what happens here.
I guess it's kinda like reading a series of books you enjoy, only to find that the author takes the plot and characters someplace you don't want it to go, and you stop enjoying the story as much. Big deal? No, it's a freakin' book. But that doesn't mean the author's Lucasizing* of the story it won't bother you a little.
I enjoy this community, and so anything that deteriorates from it is troubling, though not in any life-altering way.
[size=1]* - Lu-ca-size:
v To destroy a good thing by diluting it's quality, particularly in an attempt to increase marketing opportunities or for the sake of "political correctness."[/size]
Originally posted by hot_pastrami
I guess it's kinda like reading a series of books you enjoy, only to find that the author takes the plot and characters someplace you don't want it to go, and you stop enjoying the story as much. Big deal? No, it's a freakin' book. But that doesn't mean the author's Lucasizing* of the story it won't bother you a little.
Excellent parallel. I overstand.
GBA
DNK
Originally posted by SteveDallas
Yes.
Unless you want to go to full conspiracy mode and posit that UT hired someone to play bruce! :D
[COLOR=indigo]I've never met the person we call UT, but I have met Bruce...unless Bruce is actually Tony, then I've met Tony and not Bruce.... In which case, all the posts about UT's house and servers and stuff are lies. And all Tony's posts (as Bruce) are true.
Shit. Now I need a scorecard and the man I thought I loved is a sham!!
I feel so used!!![/COLOR]
Originally posted by OnyxCougar
[COLOR=indigo]
I feel so used!!![/COLOR]
Actually, I, Tony, operate the entire system. All of the posts under all of the usernames are written by me. I find it very entertaining to put together all the different personalities.
And even though it's been lots of fun just writing everything for myself, I have lived in hope that one day some unsuspecting soul would stumble across the place and join me and my several thousand alter egos. And it finally happened! So thanks, OnyxCougar, and I hope you're enjoying your time in my little universe.
Ah, shit...now I'm really confused. Does this mean UT is suffering from Multiple Personality Disorder, or does it mean that *I* am?
(this post was edited to correct the psychological malady identified herein before Wolf took me to task for making a common misstatement)
Dave's gone?
Has anyone volunteered to start calling people assholes and morons yet? We're gonna need those bases covered, I think.
Dave was almost always a dickhead with a point to make. That's why I liked him. If you could read through the troll-like form of expression, you could see that he was being rather satirical with it all. Now, most people who do that end up making instant enemies, but with Dave, it was usually handled pretty damn well. That takes special talent, and I give him high marks for having done so well for so long with it before a pooch finally got screwed, for whatever reason.
You could, however, knock me down with a feather that it was with Sycamore on the other end. That, I would have bet money against.
.
From Elspode:
Does this mean UT is suffering from Multiple Personality Disorder, or does it mean that *I* am?
It means we are Ep. I'm happy to clear that up for you as I'm the sane personality
Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
Please don't make me do it in public.:blush:
Only if you displease me sufficiently that it becomes necessary to make you do so.
Originally posted by Elspode
Ah, shit...now I'm really confused. Does this mean UT is suffering from Multiple Personality Disorder*, or does it mean that *I* am?
(this post was edited to correct the psychological malady identified herein before Wolf took me to task for making a common misstatement)
Don't sweat it, dude.
Thoroughly fucked up is still thoroughly fucked up, no matter how you spell it ... ;)
* Just in case you thought I wasn't paying attention ... as of DSM-IV the name was changed to "Dissociative Identity Disorder". The exact reasoning behind that is unclear, but my own personal opinion was that unscrupulous therapists who were milking the cash-cow of treating people with FAKE MPD needed a new name to explain themselves and hide their unethical treatment practices.
Originally posted by Elspode
Dave's gone?
Has anyone volunteered to start calling people assholes and morons yet? We're gonna need those bases covered, I think.
Dave was almost always a dickhead with a point to make. That's why I liked him. If you could read through the troll-like form of expression, you could see that he was being rather satirical with it all. Now, most people who do that end up making instant enemies, but with Dave, it was usually handled pretty damn well. That takes special talent, and I give him high marks for having done so well for so long with it before a pooch finally got screwed, for whatever reason.
You could, however, knock me down with a feather that it was with Sycamore on the other end. That, I would have bet money against.
It might "take a villiage"
I'll volunteer to be the part that sees through to the heart of the matter, and presents it upside down with a backhand. You do all of the lengthy fillibusterish diatribes. FnF will be the jerk off asshat.(whether or not he is aware of this conglomeration):) Slang, can you do the research that no one wants to argue with because it would involve reading all of the shit you just based your argument on?
OK, so we need a nitpicker to correct spelling and grammar. xoBruce? can we count on you?
and then we'll need a nerd that is addicted to video games...volunteers? cougar? no? you don't want any part of this? ok, fine. anyone else? what have i forgotten?
oh, and we'll need a name to log in under, and a way of communicating with each other. I suggest short wave radio spoken in the cherokee tongue. or possibly passing notes.
oh, and spode, what the fuck does " a pooch finally got screwed" mean exactly. Is this a KC-ism?
I guess you never saw The Right Stuff, jim. It's an expression referring to an extreme faux pas ... with the implication that you did so all by your lonesome.
thanks. i never DID see that movie.
You have to. Excitement, just the right amount of humor (if you don't laugh your ass off during the Alan Sheppard waiting for the launch scene there is something wrong with you), and a buncha really good actors.
Originally posted by lumberjim
OK, so we need a nitpicker to correct spelling and grammar. xoBruce? can we count on you?
I'd lik to hep butt I'm unwurthie.
Actually, I think Zippy is perfect for the role.
Thats zippyT butthead !!
And i must respectfuly decline as my work schedual is not verry reliable , and my spelling , grammer and diction is wholey inadaquit .
Thanks for the nomination though .
I've only been posting to the Cellar for about a decade, so I'll throw in a few words...
There are parts of this involving offline relationships between our protagonists, and since I don't know the whole story there (i.e. all I know is what I've been told and what I've seen posted, and the Rashomon effect applies), I'm staying out of that mess as much as I can.
It's obvious that the issues go far beyond the eye-joke/unemployment chatter that started this mess, because I've read the threads a few times, and it's _chatter_. It's the old back-of-the-bus gotcha-last stuff where the next target's the mother of whoever laughs loudest. Certain people are reacting like someone's pouring hot sand in their urethras, and untrained observers like myself don't and won't get it.
Originally posted by Undertoad
Also, this confirms to me why I don't like GTGs and didn't have any for a decade. And why I won't attend another one for a decade. Christ.
Honestly, I agree with this. I've been a Cellar denizen for at least ten years (I remember being in Ruthie's fantasy baseball league in '94), including back when it was strictly a Philly-area dialup BBS. In that time, I've interacted with several members outside of the Cellar itself; I've traded games with one or two, shared a hacked newsreader binary with one, had one hook me up with a job interview, and received an old EPROM burner as a gift from yet another. No regrets, and many benefits.
However, I have yet to meet a Cellar member face-to-face (despite GTGs, a dinner invitation many years ago, and similar things), and call me shallow if you like, but I haven't lost any sleep over that.
It's not that I'm actively avoiding human contact; I'm not the Unabomber v2.0. If my wife hadn't been having surgery the week of Tony's birthday GTG (nothing life-threatening, but I still had my hands full), I would've considered making an appearance. In ten+ years, I've killfiled exactly one person (and it wasn't April, Barak or Mike Smith, rather someone many wouldn't have expected from the BBS days), and can't think of anyone that I'd have a problem being around for a while.
Part of it is that I'm naturally like that; I make friendly acquaintances easily, but I'm a wallflower by nature, and it can take effort and a crowbar to drag me out into parties and social events. (If I go somewhere, it's generally because I have a reason to go there, not just to hang out and kibitz.)
Part of it is that I don't dive headlong into every thread like many do; when I have something to say, I pop up and say it, and when that conversation dies off, I disappear until the next time.
And part of it is that I prefer to keep a small amount of distance, just to avoid situations like the one that this thread is about. I keep coming back to the Cellar because it's full of diverse and interesting people with working brains, most of whom refuse to take themselves too seriously (and who have no compunctions about puncturing the egos of those who do). I'd miss it if it went away, as it has at least once. But I don't invest a ton of emotion towards anyone here in particular, because people come and people go and people disappear for a while and shit happens. I've played the "If X is going to be there, then I won't be" social bullshit game with an ex-gf, and it sucks monkey rocks -- and hanging back a little helps ensure that if problems ever do arise between me and someone else here, that emotions won't run deep enough to reach that point where I wouldn't feel comfortable sticking around.
But that's me. Maybe I'm just strung out on cough syrup or something.
Getting close to people always comes with a risk. Not getting close to people in order to avoid the potential pitfalls is defintitely <b>a</b> solution. But I like to think that experiencing the positive is worth the risk of the potiential negative.
vsp, after you said you don't like multiplayer gaming I don't trust you at all and would not invite you over. Even if you needed a favor of some soldering for a car stereo purchase that I recommended.
(Actually, dave was the biggest multiplayer gamer of them all, so maybe this is not a good metric)
Multiplayer gaming? LAN party? Philly area? :)
Um let's just say I have the ideal space for such a thing, a completely networked single house in the burbs with a T1 and no wife and tons of parking and garage load-in and three cases of beer I can't finish myself, and leave it at that because we were talking about never ever getting together again. ?
Hmm I like lan parties. Going to one on the 20th in West Chester...
Been trying to find a COOP game to play to avoid the whining that happens when one side gets raped. (We always make 2 teams).
BTW if you're in the mood for an asskicking I could dig up some directions to the place for you..
Originally posted by Undertoad
vsp, after you said you don't like multiplayer gaming I don't trust you at all and would not invite you over.
Dang, I don't even like
single-player gaming that much... should I pack my virtual bags?? ;)
Originally posted by Undertoad
vsp, after you said you don't like multiplayer gaming I don't trust you at all and would not invite you over. Even if you needed a favor of some soldering for a car stereo purchase that I recommended.
(Actually, dave was the biggest multiplayer gamer of them all, so maybe this is not a good metric)
Heh. I'm not ANTI-multiplayer; I'm sure I've bored you and others by pimping netrek before, which was an Internet game I was known to play in dave-esque proportions when I was in college (i.e. end the session, see the clock reading "6:00", and not know for sure whether it's AM or PM).
But I stand by my usual stance. A single-player game is as good as the designers make it; a multi-player game is as good as the players allow it to be. For me to really get into a multiplayer game, it'd have to meet a handful of criteria:
1) The game has to be sufficiently fun that even when I'm losing, I'm doing things that entertain me or are productive in a losing cause. That alone is a pretty big hurdle.
2) Pickup games with reasonably coherent opposition have to be plentiful. It only takes one too many BIFF!!1!11!s (or one cheater) to ruin an online experience.
3) There has to be a "clued" community where once I've spent enough time in pickups to play the game well and know how it _should_ be played, that I can join games with people who are equally serious about it.
4) There has to be a point to the game beyond simple socialization. I never got into noncombat MUDs or chat rooms for precisely that reason.
5) The game has to be one where you don't have to spend eight hours a day, seven days a week at it to either (a) acquire sufficient skill to hang with typical opponents or (b) build up enough rank/stats/levels/money/allies/etc. to do anything meaningful. (I'm looking at YOU, Evercrack.)
6) I will pay for this game no more than once. Monthly fee == sayonara.
Netrek _used to_ meet all of these criteria, but with the passage of time, #2 and #3 are harder and harder to meet. I go back to it once in a blue moon, but that's about it.
I may be getting old, but multiplayer FPS games have evolved far past my capabilities. I read people talking about stunts like shooting down incoming rockets, pinpoint railgun accuracy, super-speed jumping by blowing yourself sky-high with rockets, and I'm thinking "Holy shit, I'm still trying to draw a bead on somebody and they're doing that?" I feel like a beer-league softball player preparing to take on the Yankees, and I can't spend the time necessary to build up that skill level.
(On the flip side, I'll play single-player FPS'es. I grabbed Serious Sam recently and loved it.)
Ultima Online, Evercrack, Dark Age of Camelot et al. are all in the monthly-fee, sign-up-and-socialize, can't-advance-unless-you-spend-hours-waiting-for-monster-respawns-with-a-heavily-armed-guild-backing-you-up category. Next!
I've heard too many nightmares about player-killing and cheating and hacking in the Diablo family. Next! (Caveat: I like PSX Diablo, which does have co-op, and I actually found its interface to be more intuitive than the PC version.)
There is an online adapter for my PS2, but I haven't found a game that uses it yet that I'd be interested in.
Although I _am_ toying with the notion of <a href="http://cube.ign.com/articles/440/440372p1.html">this</a> little gem...
You know...my most played online game of all time is Subspace (now known as Continium).
Look it up on Google. It's the most fun you can have in an MP game online even if you only have 5 free minutes.
(Play on either Trench Wars or Extreme Games servers).
Oh and its' 100% free. (abandonware)
I've been in it since the Beta when that was I forget..still HS though...
Well that's why I always advocated Ghost Recon, because there is no stupid elite trick stuff; it's all about using your brain.
Let's see, one guy is down the alley and one guy is on top of the embassy roof. If I stand up here, the guy on the roof will see me, and if I don't see him first, I die quick. But if I provide cover fire maybe my teammate can climb the stairs and get him from the other direction. But I better lay a sensor in case the guy in the alley decides to take a run for it...
Ghost Recon is a tough as hell game to just sit down and play.
Thing is we tend to NOT know what game we'll play till we get together...so it has to be fairly basic.
I think we tried Rogue Spear and while I was godlike at that game, most people were not. Most of the time our "coop" games turned into everyone watching me finish off the AI...
Originally posted by vsp
Although I _am_ toying with the notion of <a href="http://cube.ign.com/articles/440/440372p1.html">this</a> little gem...
I don't get it. I never thought PacMan was that cool when it was in the arcades ... is it that much better to play the ghosts?
Originally posted by wolf
I don't get it. I never thought PacMan was that cool when it was in the arcades ... is it that much better to play the ghosts?
When you're playing as the ghosts AGAINST someone playing Pac-Man, that's something new and untried, particularly if you can drag a third or a fourth into it.
It's the perfect party game -- EVERYBODY knows Pac-Man, so they can learn what's different about this version in fifteen seconds. You trade off the GBA (control of Pac-Man) whenever he gets caught, so everyone gets to play different roles. Extra mazes. If you could keep Mario from providing color commentary, it'd be perfect.
Miyamoto designed it. What was the last bad game he did?
Hey, I always liked Frogger... maybe they could make a new version where you can be the alligator, or maybe one of the trucks!!!
Shhhhh... Hasbro and Konami have already been busy raping the Frogger brand name for all it's worth. (Actually, Hasbro's second attempt (Frogger 2: Swampy's Revenge) wasn't all that bad, but the first one was drizzling shit, and Frogger: The Great Quest? An anthropomorphic walking-on-two-feet Frogger trying to save a princess? Death to all involved.)