Flu shots?

jinx • Nov 19, 2003 10:21 am
http://www.cnn.com/2003/HEALTH/11/17/flu.season.ap/index.html

So who's getting one? Anyone get them every year?

How about for the kids - who thinks vaccinations are great and who's a quack conspiracy theorist?
FileNotFound • Nov 19, 2003 10:35 am
Already got one, they were free at work so why not?

Without shots I tend to get flu at least 3 times during the winter and miss at least 2 days of work. In the end I just saw no reason NOT to get a flu shot and some possible benifits from it.
dave • Nov 19, 2003 10:42 am
I'm stupid and don't get them. I probably should.
Dagney • Nov 19, 2003 10:44 am
Generally I don't do the flu shot thing (it's an aversion to needles) and I rarely catch the flu. I will catch the common colds that float around, but they're not preventable (for the most part).

But this year, with my mother doing intensive chemotherapy treatments and my being her primary caregiver, I'm seriously considering it, although I won't be doing the fluvent nasal treatment (because it is a live viral treatment), but instead do the stand by prick you in the arm flu shot of attenuated flu virus.

My biggest concern is the possibility that I'll be contagous for a few days afterwards. Mom was recently released from the hospital after a 7 day bout with Neutropenic Sepsis, and has a 'touchy' immune system at best at the moment. I'm not sure if it's worth the risk to her.
jinx • Nov 19, 2003 10:51 am
Originally posted by FileNotFound

Without shots I tend to get flu at least 3 times during the winter and miss at least 2 days of work. In the end I just saw no reason NOT to get a flu shot and some possible benifits from it.


Wow, you would get flu 3 times in one season? That must suck. Is your immune system suppressed or comprimised for some reason?
Undertoad • Nov 19, 2003 10:53 am
I avoid the flu by not interacting with other humans.
FileNotFound • Nov 19, 2003 11:07 am
Originally posted by jinx


Wow, you would get flu 3 times in one season? That must suck. Is your immune system suppressed or comprimised for some reason?


Actually I seem to get it when I'm really stressed out, stress for me really seems to kill my immune system. I can pretty much tell when I'm feeling stressed out enough that I'll get sick from something or other on the next week. The reason it's the flu is probably due to the number of people I see at work, college or on the train ride. There is always somebody sick with something around me.

Overall I know my immune system is alright but it's not some titanium shield. I used to have a lot of problems back in Russia with the flu, ear infections, stomach infections etc. The list goes on. The suggested treatment of the doctors was to stuff me full of antibiotics which really messed with my digestive system screwing me up further...

I don't see flu 3 times a season as terrible, I generaly recover in 3 days and only feel horrible 1 day. Plus I've never suffered from anything but the flu since I left Russia.
jinx • Nov 19, 2003 11:15 am
Stupid question then, but how do you know it's flu (which has symptoms generally lasting 7-10 days (fever >101F 3-4 days) with possible fatigue lasting 2-3 weeks)?
dave • Nov 19, 2003 11:16 am
He doesn't, and he's a fucking liar?

Just a guess.
jinx • Nov 19, 2003 11:18 am
Originally posted by dave
He doesn't, and he's a fucking liar?

Just a guess.


Or he's getting the flu shot to battle the common cold....
Beestie • Nov 19, 2003 11:18 am
BLECCCCCCCCHHHHHHHH! NEVER!

And I haven't gotten the flu in years.

Seems like the vaccine is only a guess anyway. I don't see why they can't just snuff out the flu altogether. Doesn't it come from a specific region in China (not unlike SARS)?

And, FnF, I didn't think you could get the flu three times. Is that not how the vaccine works - you "get" the flu (even tho not really - just through dead viruses) and thus build up an immunity? Unless there are three diff flus each season, you're getting the flu and then two other things.

[SIZE=1]edited to correct dumb spelling error - content unchanged[/SIZE]
april • Nov 19, 2003 11:22 am
I never get sick until Spring comes around. So I'm ok.
Dagney • Nov 19, 2003 11:29 am
Originally posted by Beestie

Seems like the vaccine is only a guess anyway. I don't see why they can't just snuff out the flu altogether. Doesn't it come from a specific region in China (not unlike SARS)?


From what I remember during a tour of Wyeth (During an interview long ago and far away) they do statistical studies of flu cases and try to determine the likelihood of certain strains getting to the US (or whatever region they're producing for) during that year's flu season.

This year's flu vaccine recipe was determined last year and put together this past spring. It's a pot shot, but for the most part, it seems to work.

And as always, this is not 'fact', just memory from a degree I got 10 years ago.

Dagney
bmgb • Nov 19, 2003 11:51 am
I've never gotten a shot and I don't ever get the flu. Now that I've said that, I've probably jinxed myself. Maybe "jinx" is trying to jinx us all. :D
wolf • Nov 19, 2003 11:55 am
Originally posted by Undertoad
I avoid the flu by not interacting with other humans.


I would genuinely love to avoid the flu in the same way, but this is not a valid option for me at this time.

I get the flu shot because I basically get exposed to everything. One of the big drawbacks of working in the hospital.

It seems to work, because in 10 years, the only sick days I've really taken were related to a broken toe (personal clumsiness), a broken hand (patient attack 1 year ago this week), and gall bladder removal.
lumberjim • Nov 19, 2003 2:31 pm
Originally posted by Dagney


From what I remember during a tour of Wyeth (During an interview long ago and far away) they do statistical studies of flu cases and try to determine the likelihood of certain strains getting to the US (or whatever region they're producing for) during that year's flu season.

This year's flu vaccine recipe was determined last year and put together this past spring. It's a pot shot, but for the most part, it seems to work.

And as always, this is not 'fact', just memory from a degree I got 10 years ago.

Dagney


didn't some news show just state that they think they missed the mark this year, and probably don't have the right virus in this year's shot? and then still reccomend that we get them? please.

just wash your hands a lot
elSicomoro • Nov 19, 2003 6:32 pm
I may try the nasal vaccine in the future, as I apparently have an allergy to one of the antibodies in the shot. Got one two years ago, started feeling all hot and cold, mouth tasted like aluminum, and my heart was racing. Damn, that was scary.
warch • Nov 19, 2003 6:59 pm
Got a free one at work. I too, cant avoid humans and tend to interact a lot with the small, nose-pickin', sticky ones.
richlevy • Nov 19, 2003 8:12 pm
Just got a free one at work today. Felt a little flush and nauseous a few hours later. I only keep aspirin in my desk and after reading the warning about the of Guillain-Barré syndrome as a remote possibility, I borrowed some acetomenaphin from a co-worker.

I remembered that aspirin and GB had been linked when taken for some diseases.
xoxoxoBruce • Nov 20, 2003 12:11 am
Got a monthly bulletin from my Health Care Provider that said *every* influenza originated in Chinese livestock.:(
wolf • Nov 20, 2003 1:58 am
Guess you're gonna have to give up that tryst with the milker from Nanking, then, eh Bruce?
warch • Nov 20, 2003 2:27 pm
There once was a milker from Nanking...
BrianR • Nov 20, 2003 4:09 pm
Who liked to pull on his thing...

NEXT!
lumberjim • Nov 20, 2003 4:47 pm
one day in the cellar
with sarah michelle gellar



ok someone finish it
dave • Nov 20, 2003 4:55 pm
left her face enameled and dripping.
Elspode • Nov 22, 2003 2:00 am
I must have mis-read this thread title. I thought it said *flu* shots...
lumberjim • Nov 22, 2003 2:10 am
There once was a milker from Nanking...
Who liked to pull on his thing...
one day in the cellar
with sarah michelle gellar
he left her face enameled and dripping.

elspode is my hero
xoxoxoBruce • Nov 22, 2003 8:27 am
Originally posted by wolf
Guess you're gonna have to give up that tryst with the milker from Nanking, then, eh Bruce?
I'd rather give the, Flu a shot.:p
Elspode • Nov 22, 2003 8:33 am
I have had exactly one flu shot in my entire life. I initiated a flu shot program for one of my previous employers, and I decided to get one myself as the prognostication for influenza was rather high that year.

Two days after getting the shot, I came down with the worst case of the flu I've ever had, and was off work for a solid week.

I'm not saying the shot caused the flu, but it was damn strange.
lumberjim • Nov 22, 2003 9:51 am
Originally posted by Elspode
I have had exactly one flu shot in my entire life. I initiated a flu shot program for one of my previous employers, and I decided to get one myself as the prognostication for influenza was rather high that year.

Two days after getting the shot, I came down with the worst case of the flu I've ever had, and was off work for a solid week.

I'm not saying the shot caused the flu, but it was damn strange.


I"M saying the shot caused the flu.....c'mon. don't get me started about vaccines....I think i'll get jinx fired up and start a thread about vaccines......look in home base
jinx • Nov 22, 2003 6:12 pm
Can't make me:p :p
be-bop • Nov 22, 2003 6:31 pm
Hey check this out News.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3246619.stm
Just in case any one's coming to the UK for Xmas.

Since this hit the press there was just a slight increase for Flu Shots.
ladysycamore • Nov 23, 2003 2:53 pm
Haven't got flu shot in...I don't know how long. I'd say at least 3 years, maybe longer than that. I've been pretty lucky (knock wood), but my doctors keep reminding me to get a shot (important, they say, for diabetics and renal failure patients).
jinx • Nov 26, 2003 2:12 pm
SHOULD YOU GET THE FLU SHOT?
By Dr Sherri Tenpenny
www.nmaseminars.com

News reports have been flooding us with articles warning that the impending
flu season may be the worst in years. Even though it is difficult to
separate the facts from the hype, a close evaluation of the flu vaccine
will reveal that serious questions must be raised about the recommendations
that are routinely touted, namely high efficacy with little risk. Anyone
considering a flu shot should become informed about the substances coming
through that needle, and should be determined to investigate the safety and
efficacy issues that are still unresolved.

The vaccine virus
Each year, a new vaccine is developed that contains three different viruses
(one influenza B and two influenza A strains). CDC officials select the new
viruses based on which viruses were prevalent during the flu season in
China and Australia the previous year. The CDC admits that the viruses
selected for the new vaccine are chosen on the basis of an “educated
guess.” [i]

What’s in a flu shot?
The influenza virus is grown in “specific pathogen-free” (SPF) eggs. Eggs
are tested for a variety of agents—usually between 23 and 31—to confirm the
absence of those specific pathogens. Laboratories limit the number of
agents that are screened due to the shear abundance of potential viruses
and/or bacteria to choose from. In addition, screening for every potential
agent would be cost prohibitive.[ii] If none of the tested agents are
detected, the vaccine is reported as “pathogen free.”

However, it should be understood that there is a distinct difference
between “pathogen free” and “specific pathogen-free.” In its July 1996
report, the Institute of Medicine acknowledged that “although it is not
possible to produce a completely uncontaminated animal, it is possible to
produce an animal [or egg] certified to be free of specific
pathogens.”[iii] Viruses that are harmless to their animal host, however,
may be potentially harmful to humans.

During the manufacturing process, antibiotics (neomycin, polymyxin B and
gentamicin) are added to eliminate stray bacteria found in the mixture. The
final solution can contain the following additives in any combination:
Triton X-100 (a detergent); polysorbate 80 (a potential carcinogen);
gelatin; formaldehyde; and residual egg proteins. In addition, many of the
influenza vaccines still contain thimerosal as a preservative. Thimerosal
(mercury) is being investigated for its link to brain injury and autoimmune
disease.

Does the flu shot protect?
There are no guarantees that the influenza viruses selected for the vaccine
will be the identical strains circulating during a given flu season. In
fact, it has recently been announced that this year's flu vaccine does not
include the strain that is being reported by doctors in the community
called the “A Fujian” strain. Outbreaks have been reported in Texas,
Colorado and elsewhere[iv] that involve strains that do not match the
current flu vaccine. CDC tests have confirmed that more than 80 per cent of
the 55 strains of influenza virus isolated thus far are the A Fujian
strain. Even so, the CDC still maintains that the current vaccine could
provide cross-protection against the new variant, but the fact is, no one
knows for sure.

Moreover, the majority of illnesses characterized by fever, fatigue, cough
and aching muscles are not caused by the influenza virus. Non-influenza
viruses (e.g., rhinoviruses respiratory syncytial virus [RSV],
adenoviruses, and parainfluenza viruses) can cause symptoms referred to
influenza-like illnesses (ILI). Certain bacteria, such as Legionella spp.,
Chlamydia pneumoniae, Mycoplasma pneumoniae, and Streptococcus pneumoniae,
have been documented as the causes of ILI.[v]

Notably, these microbes are not part of the flu vaccine. Unless an
organism’s antigen is contained within the vaccine, there is no protection
conferred by the vaccine. It is estimated that most adults will average 1-3
episodes of ILI, and most children will average 3-6 episodes. The CDC also
admits that “many persons who have been vaccinated against influenza can
still get the flu”[vi]

Targeting the elderly
The flu vaccine is generally recommended for persons aged 65 and older, and
those with medical conditions who could experience serious complications
from the flu. Medical journals report broad differences in effectiveness
for the elderly, ranging from 0 to 85%.
The CDC states that 90% of deaths from influenza occur among the elderly.
Considering that nearly 65% of all deaths (from any cause) occur in this
age group, it is nearly impossible to prove that flu shots significantly
increase life expectancy in this group. The truth is that most people—young
and old—will weather a bout of the flu without hospitalization or
complications.

A serious concern: Alzheimer’s Disesase
Hugh Fudenberg, MD, an immunogeneticist and biologist with nearly 850
papers published in peer review journals, has reported that if an
individual had five consecutive flu shots between 1970 and 1980 (the years
studied), his/her chances of getting Alzheimer's Disease is ten times
higher than if they had zero, one, or two shots.[vii]

Dr. Boyd Haley, Professor and Chair of the Department of Chemistry at the
University of Kentucky, Lexington has done extensive research in the area
of mercury toxicity and the brain. Haley’s research has established a
likely connection between mercury toxicity and Alzheimer’s disease. [viii]
In a paper published in collaboration with researchers at University of
Calgary, Haley stated that “seven of the characteristic markers that we
look for to distinguish Alzheimer's disease can be produced in normal brain
tissues, or cultures of neurons, by the addition of extremely low levels of
mercury.”[ix]

Does this prove that the mercury contained in the influenza shot can be
directly linked to Alzheimer’s? No, absolutely not. But further research in
this area is critically needed because the absence of proof is not the
“proof of absence.”[x]

Flu vaccine now for children
The Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP) adopted a
resolution effective March 1, 2003 that expanded the use of the influenza
vaccine to include children aged 6-23 months. The recommendations also
included vaccinating those aged 2 to 18 years who live in households
containing children younger than 2 years of age.[xi]

The flu vaccine most commonly given to children is Fluzone>, a trivalent
vaccine grown in chicken eggs. Harvested with formaldehyde and containing
the recommended ratio of 15 ug of each of the three prototype viral
strains, each dose of Fluzone> also contains 25 ug of mercury.[xii] The new
CDC recommendations include giving the influenza vaccine to children
beginning at six months of age and then annually, for the rest of their
lives. Children less than age 9 receiving their first flu shot, two doses
of vaccine are recommended, with a minimum interval of one month between
the two doses. However, the CDC does not provide a direct reference to
substantiate this recommendation.[xiii]

On June 17, 2003, the FDA approved an intranasal influenza vaccine for use
in healthy persons aged 5–49 years. Flumist> is a live-virus vaccine that
can cause a litany of problems. (for further information on FluMist)

Alternatives?
If you choose not to receive the flu shot, have a discussion with your
doctor regarding other options. However, some simple and possibly quite
effective things you can do for yourself to prevent the flu include: 1)
avoid white sugar;[xiv] 2) exercise regularly; 3) get adequate sleep; 4)
eat a healthy diet, omitting trans-fats; 5) drink plenty of purified water
daily and 6) wash your hands. A common way people contract viral illnesses
is by rubbing their nose or their eyes after their hands have been
contaminated with a virus. The CDC states, “the most important thing you
can do to keep from getting sick is to wash your hands.”[xv]

We are so used to taking medications—for prevention and treatment—that it
is difficult to comprehend that these modest recommendations are really the
most powerful ways to minimize the likelihood of getting the flu.

Making the decision
You may decide to consult a physician who is schooled in alternative
medicine to assess a variety of options for you and your family. What is
most important, in the end, is to become as informed as possible regarding
your options for keeping healthy and avoiding the flu.
jinx • Nov 26, 2003 2:14 pm
Sorry these didn't fit i the last message:

REFERENCES
[i] Sabin, Russel and Reynolds. Breakdowns Mar Flu Shot Program Production,
distribution delays raise fears of nation vulnerable to epidemic. San
Francisco Chronicle. Feb. 25, 2001
[ii] Charles River Laboratories, A Laboratory Animal Health Monitoring
Program: Rationale and Development,' (Winter 1990); Source: Internet address
[iii] Institute of Medicine Press Release: Federal Guidelines Needed to
Ensure Safety in Animal-to-Human Organ Transplants. July 17, 1996.
[iv]CBS: The Associated Press. CDC Says Flu Season Is Going Strong in Parts
of U.S., Vaccine Doesn't Match Strain Doctors See.
[v] MMWR. November 9, 2001 / 50(44);984-6
[vi] MMWR Nov. 9, 2001/50(44); 984-6
[vii] Hugh Fudenberg, MD, is Founder and Director of Research, Neurolmmuno
Therapeutic Research Foundation. Information from Dr. Hugh Fudenberg came
from transcribed notes of Dr. Fudenberg's speech at the NVIC International
Vaccine Conference, Arlington, VA September, 1997. Quoted with permission.
[viii] The Relationship of Toxic Effects of Mercury to Exacerbation of the
Medical Condition Classified as Alzheimer’s Disease by Boyd E. Haley, PhD.
[ix] NeuroReport, 12(4):733-737, 2001
[x] http://www.testfoundation.org/
[xi] MMWR. 2002;51[RR-3]:1-31
[xii] Package insert. Influenza Virus VaccineFluzone® 2003 – 2004 Formula
[xiii] MMWR. 2002: 51 [RR-3], pg. 19
[xiv] All forms of refined sugar depress white blood cells' ability to
destroy bacteria. See Sanchez A, et al. Role of sugars in human
neutrophilic phagocytosis. Am J Clin Nutr 1973;26:1180.
[xv]CDC—Handwashing: An ounce of prevention keeps the germs away.
--------------------------------------------------------
jinx • Oct 12, 2004 12:34 pm
FDA denies knowing of Chiron suspension.
Elspode • Oct 12, 2004 5:13 pm
I got a flu shot once. Two days later, I swear to the Gods that I got the worst case of the flu I've ever had.

I know they say it doesn't happen, but it sure happened to me big time. Heck of a coincidence.
tw • Oct 12, 2004 6:08 pm
American drug companies say that the domestic cost of drugs must be double and sometimes as much as quadruple the price of Canada so that we have better quality drugs. But look where the drugs are made - Ireland and in this case Britian. Chiron is not subject to direct American inspections when flu shots are made overseas. So it is better to get your flu shos and drugs in Canada where the same drugs are cheaper? No says George Jr who just passed laws making it illegal to get perscriptions fill in Canada. Canada, he says, does not have sufficient quality drugs. Explain Chiron and Viagra - made overseas and not subject to direct FDA inspections.

Another question is how long these Chiron vaccinations have been contaminated.
jinx • Oct 12, 2004 7:13 pm
tw wrote:
Chiron is not subject to direct American inspections when flu shots are made overseas.

American companies like Wyeth and Merk (where Dr. Offit works) don't have such hot safety records either;


Marietta, Pa.

Feb. 14, 2000

Less than three weeks later, Wyeth-Ayerst Laboratories, which produces more than a third of the nation's flu vaccine, dropped a bombshell: It was shutting down the last stages of production indefinitely.

The announcement came just three days before FDA investigators Marsha Major,

David Hafner and Jim Evans completed an exhaustive, three-month inspection of the company's vaccine manufacturing plant in Marietta, Pa.

Spelled out in arcane detail over 24 pages, their findings capped almost five years of sniping between agency regulators and the mammoth pharmaceutical firm.

The FDA had been pressing Wyeth since August 1995 to improve conditions at Marietta. Two warning letters were issued. A meeting between top regulators and Wyeth-Ayerst officials was held. And yet, company resistance to the agency's touchstone Current Good Manufacturing Practices persisted.

On Nov. 3, 1999, Major, Hafner and Evans began their inspection at the Marietta plant. In more than 40 visits, they uncovered scores of possible violations involving a variety of products, from suspect inspection reports on rotavirus vaccine to lax testing of smallpox vaccine.

They found that when vials containing the flu vaccine mysteriously cracked and exposed the contents to possible contamination, the company proceeded to ship vials that looked unbroken - even though, said the inspectors, the cracks could not always be discovered by sight and the problem had not yet been explained.

Batches of flu vaccine that initially failed certain tests were retested numerous times, said the FDA, and the results were averaged to obtain passing grades. Disinfectants used to kill germs in sterile areas were ineffective against even common bacteria, the agency noted. And when excessive "microorganisms" appeared in the plant's air, the company failed to investigate properly, according to the FDA's February 17 inspection report.
dar512 • Oct 13, 2004 10:46 am
I didn't realize this was a resurrection of an old thread so I read through from the beginning. I got a good chuckle out of it. Els. Look at your post #29 in this thread posted last November and #37 from yesterday. Must have been a really nasty flu to stick out in your mind like that.
Kitsune • Oct 13, 2004 10:59 am
Holy hell, did I just go through the worst "mini-flu" I've ever had. Its systematically spreading quickly in my area and is affecting everyone, but it only knocks most people out for about 30 hours, total. I had a fever set in that topped out at 103.5F (!) and stayed there for around five hours. In terms of aches and pains, I felt like someone had thrown me to the ground and kicked every inch of my body -- getting out of bed wasn't possible. I haven't had an illness that disabling in quite a number of years.

Still, one day of that was better than the three days of crappy-feeling I get from a usual flu shot.
wolf • Oct 13, 2004 11:11 pm
I am a healthcare worker.

Healthcare workers are on the CDC's "priority" list for receiving flu shots during this year's shortage.

The county health department is refusing to release doses to our hospital's infection control nurse.

The suggestion has been offered that we head down to one of the drug stores that's giving out shots for $20 each (the ones that are having the riots over people cutting in line), getting it there, and making sure we bring a receipt back to work so we can be reimbursed.

I have been advised to avoid the offers of "FluMist" like the plague that it is ... live flu virus is involved, so you do get sick from the administration.
Elspode • Oct 13, 2004 11:32 pm
dar512 wrote:
I didn't realize this was a resurrection of an old thread so I read through from the beginning. I got a good chuckle out of it. Els. Look at your post #29 in this thread posted last November and #37 from yesterday. Must have been a really nasty flu to stick out in your mind like that.


Almost a year ago...I'd totally forgotten! Yeah, it was nasty. The worst ever, seriously.
skysidhe • Oct 29, 2006 7:43 am
Elspode wrote:
I have had exactly one flu shot in my entire life. I~snip
Two days after getting the shot, I came down with the worst case of the flu I've ever had, and was off work for a solid week.

I'm not saying the shot caused the flu, but it was damn strange.



I've had two shots years apart. Both times I got deathly ill. People say 'oh that means you already were getting it' Or "the flu was already in there". yadda yadda....


As far as I am concerned those germs can just stay asleep in there. I'd rather take my chances with my bodys filtration of germs or what not rather than to inject myself with 'who knows what' and get sicker than I ever get otherwise.

My suggestion is no body should get a flu vaccine. I am not so sure a vaccine didn't cause my kids autism either. I guess I am a 'closet quack conspiracy theorist'
Ibby • Oct 29, 2006 9:16 am
Well that was sure some resurrection...
JayMcGee • Oct 29, 2006 8:50 pm
Guess she was bored....
9th Engineer • Oct 29, 2006 9:19 pm
Just pray no one takes her seriously, don't get me started on it causing autism, but there's a reason people take them and it has nothing to do with conspiracy theory. If you are a healthy adult then you shouldn't get one, it's for people with compromised immune systems (very young, very old, sickly).
lhatcher • Oct 30, 2006 2:38 pm
Call me paranoid.. I just don't like the idea of ling up with everyone else to get injected because we're told to. I've seen too many movies I guess. When the bad guys take over, blamo.. the very young and the very old are wiped out. I'd rather risk the flu
9th Engineer • Oct 30, 2006 11:04 pm
:whofart: ooooookkkkkkaaaayyyyy....you do that then, no one's stopping you
JayMcGee • Oct 31, 2006 7:49 pm
mmmmm.....

is there a doctor in the house? (actually . there are probally many... I've always felt The Cellar was way overqualified for a simple bulletin board)...but
here Im talkin' MD's.......

my local GP practise has called me up for the 'flu jab... should I go be pricked or no?
lhatcher • Nov 1, 2006 9:01 am
I know, I know.. I've seen too many conspiracy movies. No need for sarcasm 9th. Most of the healthy adults I know get annual flu shots and I just think people should think about it first and not automatically roll up their sleeves because someone says to. If you decide you need one, go get one, but make an educated decision not a lemming jump.
9th Engineer • Nov 1, 2006 4:09 pm
Sorry, I've actually encountered people who truly thought that flu shots and immunizations were just a conspiracy to boost health care 'profits' though.
Shawnee123 • Nov 1, 2006 4:25 pm
I asked the nurse at work about flu shots...she's totally for them. I am wary. She says it just builds your immunity year after year. I think we are making the flu strains that do survive stronger. I asked her how the bird flu was coming along ( I still think it's the same thing as Killer Bees) and it sounds like it's "still on its way" yet the current flu shot does not protect against it. They can't possibly cover all strains. I don't see the point.

I'm with 9th on this aspect: the very old, the sick. I never get one.
bbro • Nov 1, 2006 4:36 pm
I get one every year because of my doctor. I would rather get a prick than end up with pneumonia. (I have asthma) The funny thing is that I have never had the flu. When I was younger, I remember taking care of my mother while she was in bed with the flu after school and I still never got it.
Shawnee123 • Nov 1, 2006 4:39 pm
Not afraid of the shot...just don't think it's necessary for me (I'm used to "pricks".) :p

I had no idea flu shots covered pneumonia!
bbro • Nov 1, 2006 4:42 pm
They don't but asthmatics are more likely to have the virus settle in their lungs, then onto the hospital for breathing treatments (happened to my mom once or twice)

There is actually a shot specifically for pneumonia. I think it lasts like 10 years or something. Another one my doctor made me get
Shawnee123 • Nov 1, 2006 5:00 pm
I see. I have a buddy with asthma...it sends him to the hospital every year or so. Scary stuff.

Keep yourself well! :)
bbro • Nov 1, 2006 5:14 pm
I try, thanks :D

You know, I actually described what an asthma attack felt like to a friend, not thinking it too big a deal. I mean it sucks and you have to be careful, but the look of horror on her face was like I was talking about cutting off my own arm. I guess I am so used to it between my mother and me that if it isn't happening, no big deal. I only worry when it is happening, ya know?
Shawnee123 • Nov 1, 2006 5:18 pm
I can't imagine not being able to breathe like that. You must also have to be able to control the panicky feeling, probably something you learned very early on.

Thanks for teaching me something today! :)
skysidhe • Nov 2, 2006 12:17 am
9th Engineer wrote:
Just pray no one takes her seriously, don't get me started on it causing autism, but there's a reason people take them and it has nothing to do with conspiracy theory. If you are a healthy adult then you shouldn't get one, it's for people with compromised immune systems (very young, very old, sickly).



hey, don't be a jerk. Is it too much to ask if you would address a point directly instead of talking ABOUT it as if a person wasn't there.

That goes for Jay too.

ASK ME ..... if I believe kids should be given vaccines and my answer would be yes.
skysidhe • Nov 2, 2006 12:29 am
Besides. Using poisons like mercury and chrion in vaccines isn't a conspiracy theory. It is fact.
JayMcGee • Nov 2, 2006 7:43 pm
you ressurect a two year old thread and then moan 'cos I suspect you might have been bored?

Ok, you'e not bored.... just barking.....
9th Engineer • Nov 3, 2006 5:28 pm
skysidhe wrote:
My suggestion is no body should get a flu vaccine. I am not so sure a vaccine didn't cause my kids autism either.

Jerk? Perhaps, although it was still not uncalled for. The first part is a bit of an eyebrow raiser without your reasoning provided, but I probably wouldn't have commented if you had stopped there. The second part was what made you sound more than a little nutty, how in the world would you be able to make a statement like that and have anything to back it up?
Griff • Nov 3, 2006 7:55 pm
How much time have you spent with children on the spectrum? The vaccine issue may not be all its made out to be BUT the Fed Gov is working pretty hard not to release all the information they have on these mandated shots. Something is very wrong.
wolf • Nov 3, 2006 7:57 pm
Shawnee123 wrote:
I had no idea flu shots covered pneumonia!


They don't. You have to get a one-time shot of Pneumovax for that.

A bout of flu, though, will weaken the immune system to the point where other infections, such as pneumonia, become more likely.
wolf • Nov 3, 2006 7:59 pm
9th Engineer wrote:
Just pray no one takes her seriously, don't get me started on it causing autism, but there's a reason people take them and it has nothing to do with conspiracy theory. If you are a healthy adult then you shouldn't get one, it's for people with compromised immune systems (very young, very old, sickly).


You left out healthcare workers ... one of the greatest dangers of any epidemic is when the care providers start to get sick.
skysidhe • Nov 9, 2006 11:12 am
@ 9th and griff

http://www.mercola.com/2005/sep/20/new_flu_vaccine_is_loaded_with_mercury.htm

Dr. Mercola's Comment:


It has been six years since the American Academy of Pediatrics and the U.S. Public Health Service joined forces in requesting the removal of all mercury-containing preservative thimerosal from vaccines.

A quick surf on the net easily reveals that this new vaccine indeed contains mercury.

How is it possible that they can approve vaccines that have a preservative that has been outlawed for six years? Last year I ran an article that documented that flu vaccines still contain mercury. How can the US federal government justify this morally reprehensible behavior and expose your children and you to this well documented neurotoxic poison?

The "Mad Hatter" from Alice in Wonderland wasn't just an idle fancy. In fact, hatters in England went insane with astonishing frequency a couple of hundred years ago, until "mad hatter" became a cliché. Why? Mercury salts were used to make felt for fancy hats.

Mercury exposure can cause a devastating array of problems, including:
Multiple Sclerosis
Central Nervous System Disorders
Autism
Alzheimer's Disease

Is this really something you want injected into yourself, and your children?

Other ways to avoid getting the flu without taking dangerous shots include:
Eating a healthy diet by eliminating sugar
Exercising
Getting enough rest
Eating garlic regularly
Not letting stress become overwhelming
Washing your hands


To learn more about the dangers of flu vaccines, you might want to consider calling into our telephone clinic on the subject, where you will hear a live discussion I will conduct with my top vaccine advisor, Dr. Sherri Tenpenny, who is widely regarded as one of the most knowledgeable and outspoken physicians regarding the impact that vaccines can have on health.


There is alot of supporting facts for anyone who wants to research via a simple google search. Childhood vaccines are important. I think the benefit outweigh the risk.However as a mother presented with the facts the thought has crossed my mind as to 'if' this was the cause. I don't expect anyone to understand who dosn't have a child with a disability. One would wonder where it came from but that and my experience isn't anyones business. The facts on the poisons in vaccines which include flu vaccine is a fact and I would appreciate my critics to use facts of their own instead of flammable language and irrelevant personal questions. Thank you:(


vaccine registrys and phone numbers

http://www.whale.to/vaccines/ingredients1.html

http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/thi-table.htm
Griff • Nov 9, 2006 4:35 pm
I'm definitely with you skysidhe.
skysidhe • Nov 10, 2006 1:37 am
:comfort: I see that now. Thank you griff !
jinx • Nov 13, 2006 8:31 pm
"Abnormal Behavior" warning added to Tamiflu.

FDA said it had received 103 reports, mostly from Japan, of injury and delirium among the millions of flu patients treated with Tamiflu. The changes bring the U.S. label more in line with the Japanese one, which already warned such abnormal behavior could occur. The previous FDA-approved label mentioned "seizure and confusion" seen in some patients.
xoxoxoBruce • Nov 13, 2006 8:50 pm
Not disputing the danger, one iota,....... but when they say "103 reports, mostly from Japan, of injury and delirium among the millions of flu patients treated with Tamiflu", I think 103 could just be nuts before they got there, or could be freaked by getting any shot.
I also think of all those wacky Asian IOtDs. :lol:
jinx • Oct 21, 2008 11:53 am
NJ flu-shot mandate for pre-schoolers draws outcry.

Gee, I can't imagine why...
[B]
Influenza vaccine effectiveness among children 6 to 59 months of age during 2 influenza seasons: a case-cohort study.

[/B]
CONCLUSION: In 2 seasons with suboptimal antigenic match between vaccines and circulating strains, we could not demonstrate VE in preventing influenza-related inpatient/ED or outpatient visits in children younger than 5 years. Further study is needed during years with good vaccine match.


Line up your little guinea pigs folks...
Cicero • Oct 21, 2008 12:06 pm
They were handing them out for free at Albertson's the other day. I don't even have to guess at what kind of flu shot it was. Here's some, screw you up for no reason, for free. Oh gee, gimme some of that. I love free. I didn't see many people lining up for one. I think there was one guy there.
glatt • Oct 21, 2008 12:11 pm
Cicero;495883 wrote:
I don't even have to guess at what kind of flu shot it was.


What kind of flu shot was it?


Nobody should be required by the state to get a flu shot, let alone pre-school aged kids. What business does the State have to regulate who can attend a private pre-school?

If there is a wide spread epidemic killing millions of people, then we can talk about the government coming in and forcing people to get shots. But absent an emergency, it's not right.
Cicero • Oct 21, 2008 12:14 pm
Thimerosal. Because it's cheap enough to give to the public for free. To request it without the Mercury is an upgrade. I doubt they even had any on hand for the requests.
Sundae • Oct 21, 2008 12:20 pm
I got the flu shot every year when I worked in the NHS.
If I was offered it now I'd take it too.

Never had a single problem.

HM gets it because he's asthmatic.
He claimed it stopped him getting colds too. He would not accept my argument as to why this was emphatically not the case.
Then again he also claimed virtuous living as the reason he didn't get colds, and predicted his brother's early death practically every time he talked about him (also Alan Parker, who will be dead before next summer apparently, because he's put on weight).
jinx • Oct 21, 2008 12:22 pm
The difference between offered and mandated is the issue... as some people have had problems.
Cicero • Oct 21, 2008 12:34 pm
I don't even like it "offered" to the naive.
It's not like they say, "hey this has mercury in it". "Do you still want it?"

The fact that it is mandated really screws me up. Like, in the head. Utter complete bullshit.

If you want your child to be healthy that is your choice. Letting your kid have a strong immune system is part of that choice.
wolf • Oct 21, 2008 1:11 pm
The Infection Control Practitioner delivered mine to my office last week. I didn't even have to go upstairs and stand in a big line, which is how they usually dispense the shots. Downside is that because she was mobile, she didn't bring the bag of lollipops with her.

I've never had any problems with the shot, but my cow orker who tends toward hypochondria started having hot flashes and general malaise almost immediately, which then lasted for the next three days.
glatt • Oct 21, 2008 1:12 pm
I'm getting mine in early November. They come to work and it's free for me.
Clodfobble • Oct 21, 2008 3:27 pm
I just turned down the one at Minifobette's 6-month checkup (at our doctor they do make a point to mention that it's optional--but recommended--when they're going through all the other vaccines.) I told the pediatrician, "Nah, I'm not worried about it, we don't really get sick."

Of course, just two days later we all got a cold. :lol: Minifob got it first though, and I'm certain he picked it up in the waiting room, playing around the other sick kiddos.
Griff • Oct 21, 2008 5:53 pm
I refused a free one at work today. I'd rather just get the flu.
Aliantha • Oct 21, 2008 6:26 pm
I've never had a flu shot. Don't intend to ever get one either.
Elspode • Oct 21, 2008 6:32 pm
We're paying for employees at work to have them on Thursday. I got one the last two years. 2006, I got sick three days later, for three days...with the flu. Last year, all was well.
Sundae • Oct 21, 2008 7:09 pm
Griff;495990 wrote:
I refused a free one at work today. I'd rather just get the flu.

You know this is a vaccine against influenza don't you? Not just a cold, which people call "the flu".

Flu lays you low for 3-5 days (I mean really, not soldiering through it, actually needing to be looked after for this amount of time). The after effects can last for weeks.

And as it's airbourne and you can be infected without symptoms for up to 24 hours, you might be passing it on to vulnerable people.

I'm not saying everyone should have the vaccination, and of course it should be by choice. I'm just explaining why many people take it when offered.

And yes I know the above from personal experience because I've had influenza, and it's as different from any other cold as a migraine is from a headache. [COLOR="Silver"][SIZE="1"]And also because I worked for the Medicines Management Team of course.[/SIZE][/COLOR]
Cicero • Oct 21, 2008 7:24 pm
lol!! And all this time I thought flu shots were given for syphilis...That would suck. To have syfluenza....lol!

So you guys aren't going to have your kids vaccinated against the flu? Well don't come crying to me when they turn into flesh eating zombies.....:) lol!
Griff • Oct 21, 2008 7:40 pm
in[COLOR="Red"]flu[/COLOR]enza

Um, no shit really. :eyeroll:

cdc

Thiomersal (INN) (C9H9HgNaO2S), commonly known in the United States as thimerosal, is an organomercury compound (approximately 49% mercury by weight) used as an antiseptic and antifungal agent.

I generally say no thank you when offered brain poisons even in light doses. As a child I wasn't given a choice, now I'll exercise mine.
Sundae • Oct 21, 2008 7:46 pm
Sorry, I was making a point - just rather heavy-handedly.
I should simply have asked if you've ever suffered from the flu.
Cicero • Oct 21, 2008 7:49 pm
lol! You know you were referring to syfluenza admit it. :)

Here's another little fyi...Pork comes from pigs! I know you thought pork came from cows......but it doesn't....Isn't that why you weren't eating pork?

lol! Sorry Sundae. That was pretty far fetched...gotta give you "the business" for that one. lol!

Aaah that made me laugh....thnx.
Sundae • Oct 21, 2008 7:52 pm
Meh - I get tired of people self diagnosing very minor illnesses with more serious names.
I forget that when I come here I am dealing with people at least twice as intelligent (not sarcasm)
My bad :blush:
Cicero • Oct 21, 2008 7:54 pm
lol!! Still laughing.....You sounded so serious. lol!! Love it..
Griff • Oct 21, 2008 7:58 pm
You're okay Sundae, I'm just getting warmed up for Merc explaining why we should give babies a cocktail vaccine for measles mumps ruebella chicken pox herpes and various inflenzas marinated in mercury.
Aliantha • Oct 21, 2008 8:00 pm
There isn't a vaccine for herpes. If there were I'd suggest everyone get it before they become sexually active.
Griff • Oct 21, 2008 8:16 pm
Sorry, how about including HPV or whatever the next wonder vaccine is that's mandated for the betterment of Merck's stockholders er sorry humanity.
Aliantha • Oct 21, 2008 8:18 pm
I can see HPV ending up on the standard list of vaccines along with Rubella for teenage girls.
Griff • Oct 21, 2008 8:20 pm
It may not be a bad idea, but I hate that my kids are in the age group that would be the test subjects and they wouldn't admitt a problem if there was one.
Aliantha • Oct 21, 2008 8:22 pm
I don't think medical companies get away with faulty drugs for very long these days. There's just too much information sharing...and lots and lots of whistle blowers.

I certainly understand your concerns though.
jinx • Oct 21, 2008 8:23 pm
At least if it's mandated, mercury free (single dose vials) options will be made available... eventually - although not to the people getting it free from the company bucket... Personally, I'm also not too keen on aluminum, formaldehyde, and genetically engineered virii myself...
Griff • Oct 21, 2008 8:26 pm
Ruebella is mandated before school here, unfortunately they usually try to give it in a cocktail to little ones not teens, so you get a lot of high temps, the occasional death, and some say autism or compromised immune systems.
jinx • Oct 21, 2008 8:27 pm
And it wears off just in time for the girls to hit child bearing age - brilliant I tell ya...
Aliantha • Oct 21, 2008 8:28 pm
Over here, Rubella is offered usually in the first or second year of high school. I remember I had mine at school. It's not compulsory though. Well it wasn't then. Like everywhere else though, some private schools require immunisation against everything.
footfootfoot • Oct 21, 2008 8:30 pm
May I tell my herpes joke at this point?
Aliantha • Oct 21, 2008 8:31 pm
jinx;496040 wrote:
And it wears off just in time for the girls to hit child bearing age - brilliant I tell ya...


Not in all cases. In any case, there are booster shots available for those who are serious about immunisation.

Pretty similar to tetanus really.
Griff • Oct 21, 2008 8:34 pm
footfootfoot;496042 wrote:
May I tell my herpes joke at this point?


please do
Aliantha • Oct 21, 2008 8:36 pm
If one in seven sexually active people have herpes, that means quite a number of our regulars must have it.
Griff • Oct 21, 2008 8:36 pm
not it!
Aliantha • Oct 21, 2008 8:37 pm
lol...would it matter if you did have it?
Griff • Oct 21, 2008 8:40 pm
Too late to vaccinate.
Griff • Oct 21, 2008 8:41 pm
I like that phrase sing it out long and strong! "Too late to vaccinate!"
Aliantha • Oct 21, 2008 8:41 pm
Yes well, generally there's not much point in vaccination once you've got the disease. Unfortunately for some.

It's interesting what social stigma is attached to herpes though.
Griff • Oct 21, 2008 8:45 pm
I would think it depends on your circle. I don't think its a biggie.
Aliantha • Oct 21, 2008 8:48 pm
So why do you think it is that no one on this site has owned up to having herpes if it's no biggie? People seem to talk about all their other deep dark secrets.
footfootfoot • Oct 21, 2008 8:54 pm
Three women arrive at SAINT Pete's gate and ask to be let into heaven.
St. Pete asks the first how she died. "The big C. I died of the big C."
"What's the big C?" he asks.
"Cancer, fool. Wha'd you think it was?"
"OH sorry, sure right.Well step right in."
"And what did you die from?" He asks the next woman.
"I died of the big T."
"The big T?" he asks
"Tuberculosis, what is wrong with you? The drug resistant kind."
"Oh Yes, sure of course, sorry, come on in."
St. Pete turns to the last woman and asks what did her in,
"The big H."
"The big H?"
"Herpes. Ain't you ever heard of Herpes?"
"You don't die from herpes." St. Pete says.
"You do when you give it to Leroy."
Griff • Oct 21, 2008 8:56 pm
Give them time to find the thread... assuming we haven't put a bullet in it's brain pan yet. :)
Aliantha • Oct 21, 2008 8:57 pm
I'll bet you no one owns up to having herpes although I'm sure when Jimbo reads the first part of my statement he'll say he got it on 9/11.
footfootfoot • Oct 21, 2008 9:02 pm
Aliantha;496069 wrote:
I'll bet you no one owns up to having herpes although I'm sure when Jimbo reads the first part of my statement he'll say he got it on 9/11.

I not only have it I'm having a scorching outbreak right now. In fact you should go wash your hands after you read this post.
footfootfoot • Oct 21, 2008 9:03 pm
Do you know about the latest avian virus? Chirpies. The saddest part is it's un tweetable.
Aliantha • Oct 21, 2008 9:04 pm
You know it's brought on by stress and poor diet and not enough sleep (and poor personal hygiene isn't helpful either). Maybe you should go wash your boy bits? ;)
Aliantha • Oct 21, 2008 9:04 pm
footfootfoot;496076 wrote:
Do you know about the latest avian virus? Chirpies. The saddest part is it's un tweetable.


That was a funny one. At last! :)
footfootfoot • Oct 21, 2008 9:06 pm
Aliantha;496077 wrote:
You know it's brought on by stress and poor diet and not enough sleep (and poor personal hygiene isn't helpful either). Maybe you should go wash your boy bits? ;)

I've had it for 20 something years, I can tell you a lot more about it than you'd care to know. infact, you can bring about an outbreak by washing your boy bits too vigorously, if you get my drift. and FWIW, I'm a virgo and we keep our special purposes scrupulously clean.
Griff • Oct 21, 2008 9:07 pm
Speaking of constant hand washing, I've been hanging around a pink eye outbreak for the last 3 weeks. I bet it hits me tomorrow since I have to run a training I've been organizing.
Aliantha • Oct 21, 2008 9:09 pm
So you weren't just being a smarty pants then?

And you couldn't tell me too much I don't know about it. Remember, you're not the only one. I got it the first time I ever had sex, and do you know what the arsehole said to me? Now you can't ever leave me. I believed him at first...but then I grew up.
Griff • Oct 21, 2008 9:11 pm
Wow, that was cold.
Aliantha • Oct 21, 2008 9:12 pm
Sometimes I think it's a wonder I that I had enough faith left in love and men to ever find the wonderful man I have now. I've been very lucky in my life.
footfootfoot • Oct 21, 2008 9:16 pm
whoa, I missed that post Ali. Funny thing, while my GF didn't say that in so many words, there was definitely the expectation afterward. There is a part of me that feels it was intentional. As far as I know the buck stopped here.
Aliantha • Oct 21, 2008 9:19 pm
I'm almost certain it was intentional. I don't think he cared that much even that he'd given me something I'd have to live with forever.

How many women have you dated that dumped you once they found out you had it? Only happened a couple of times to me. Most blokes were ok about it, but the couple of times it did happen it was gutting. And it brought back all the anger I was too naive to feel at the time.
footfootfoot • Oct 21, 2008 9:26 pm
none of them dumped me since I was upfront, but also I don't think it was ever an issue w/ any of them.
Aliantha • Oct 21, 2008 9:29 pm
I was always upfront, but sometimes I think it's the difference between men and women. I think often it was the stage when I found out who just wanted a fuck and who actually cared about me as a person.

I guess the ones that just wanted a fuck missed out, even if that's all it was ever going to be. ;)
footfootfoot • Oct 21, 2008 9:34 pm
good point, but there are days when I wish I had said to her "let's just be friends"
Aliantha • Oct 21, 2008 9:35 pm
I wish I'd listened to my parents when they told me he was no good.
TheMercenary • Oct 22, 2008 5:12 am
Griff;496028 wrote:
You're okay Sundae, I'm just getting warmed up for Merc explaining why we should give babies a cocktail vaccine for measles mumps ruebella chicken pox herpes and various inflenzas marinated in mercury.

Hey man, you don't think kids should get vaccinated?
Sundae • Oct 22, 2008 10:38 am
I've never had herpes, but I've been tested for a couple of STDs at least 3 times. So I've been in risky situations and it's luck that I don't have it.

A friend of a friend caught Hepatitis C from her first partner. He was a drug user and although she claims she didn't inject it is apparently unusual to catch through sexual contact. So although I was luckier than you, she was unluckier than any of us I guess.
Griff • Oct 23, 2008 6:39 am
TheMercenary;496157 wrote:
Hey man, you don't think kids should get vaccinated?


I don't think infants and toddlers should be getting cocktails of multiple vaccines and those vaccines should not be using mercury as a preservative especially for small bodies and developing brains. I know the public health (or socialistic) reasons why the group is more important than the stray kid so you can save your breathe. I worked with boys with severe autism for a couple years (chilling with a couple milds these days) and while officially vaccines have nothing to do with the onset, despite the suspicious timing, it can be assumed that a perfect storm of genetics and multiple environmental factors comes into play. Responsible parents control what can be controlled. Silly mandated vaccines like chicken pox are completely beyond the pale.

Ruebella is done young in the US to keep pregnant Moms from contracting the diease from their school age kids...
TheMercenary • Oct 23, 2008 3:35 pm
Well same for chicken pox if you want to look deep into it. People who are exposed to it as adults, from children, can get very ill, esp if you are a prego female. I know it is a personal choice. And I know that there has been a long held belief that it is tied to autism. But I also know that the types, causes, and severity of autism in children are far and wide as well as poorly understood, esp the familial connections.
Pie • Oct 23, 2008 4:47 pm
All the years my father was immunocompromised, I was very grateful to have access to the flu vaccine. The more people around him that were vaccinated, the less chance he would die of it.
Sometimes, it's not all about you.
Griff • Oct 23, 2008 9:34 pm
Nice parting shot. I'm a bad person for questioning.
Pie • Oct 23, 2008 9:47 pm
It wasn't directed at you.
Cicero • Oct 24, 2008 5:47 pm
I wonder if this is gonna work in New Jersey?

http://www.vaclib.org/exemption.htm

I found it from the vaccinationnation.net site. I wonder if it is connected to shaken baby stuff? Oooh all questions and no answers, I hate that.
jinx • Mar 26, 2009 11:26 am
Oops! link link
Flu vaccines contaminated with H5N1

The contaminated product, a mix of H3N2 seasonal flu viruses and unlabelled H5N1 viruses, was supplied to an Austrian research company. The Austrian firm, Avir Green Hills Biotechnology, then sent portions of it to sub-contractors in the Czech Republic, Slovenia and Germany.
The contamination incident, which is being investigated by the four European countries, came to light when the subcontractor in the Czech Republic inoculated ferrets with the product and they died. Ferrets shouldn't die from exposure to human H3N2 flu viruses.
Public health authorities concerned about what has been described as a "serious error" on Baxter's part have assumed the death of the ferrets meant the H5N1 virus in the product was live. But the company, Baxter International Inc., has been parsimonious about the amount of information it has released about the event.
On Friday, the company's director of global bioscience communications confirmed what scientists have suspected.
"It was live," Christopher Bona said in an email.


A skeptical person might point out that reassortment, or the mixing of 2 virus strains, would be a great way to finally get that bird flu pandemic they've been threatening us with going. Is that a more frightening though than "human error" in the lab creating this bio-weapon?

the incident is being described as "a serious error" on the part of Baxter, which is on the brink of securing a European licence for an H5N1 vaccine.


Huh. They would have made a bunch of money if they had infected people I guess...
lumberjim • Mar 26, 2009 11:42 pm
so...if the LIVE bird flu and the regular flu vaccine had been injected as a vaccine into a human host ....'intended' to be a vaccine... but actually as an inevitable (statistically) hybrid of the two......a bridge between the fatal avian flu and the fast spreading human influenza........there would have been a HUUUUUGE demand for the vaccine against that particular pandemic. the company that held the patent of that vaccine would have been in a favorable position in the old supply and demand equation, neh?
Shawnee123 • Mar 26, 2009 11:46 pm
I know. Wow. This is why I don't go for flu shots. At some point, someone is making money or else they're making the "other" strains stronger. No. Way. It's even more convoluted than I could have imagined.
Undertoad • Mar 27, 2009 8:29 am
Flu vaccines contaminated with H5N1


Turns out this statement is false. Read the stories carefully. The vaccines are produced in an entirely different country from where the contamination happened.

Christopher Bona, Baxter's director of global bioscience communications, said the liquid virus product was not a vaccine and was developed for testing purposes only.
jinx • Mar 27, 2009 11:25 am
Yes sorry, I just copied the headline from the first story I read which was from a fairly biased site.

Was hard to find info on, apparently wasn't big enough news for US outlets.
glatt • Mar 27, 2009 11:41 am
Still, it's crazy that Baxter is so sloppy with their procedures that they mixed the two viruses and exposed their own workers to it. If you are working with a virus that is as potentially dangerous as H5N1 you should be careful.
Pie • Mar 27, 2009 12:40 pm
glatt;550053 wrote:
Still, it's crazy that Baxter is so sloppy with their procedures that they mixed the two viruses and exposed their own workers to it. If you are working with a virus that is as potentially dangerous as H5N1 you should be careful.

You should see what they do with nuke secrets over at los alamos...
sugarpop • Mar 28, 2009 8:50 pm
I never get flu shots. Ever. they scare me.
jinx • Apr 8, 2010 11:40 am
Influenza vaccination for healthcare workers who work with the elderly.


BACKGROUND: Healthcare workers' (HCWs) influenza rates are unknown, but may be similar to the general public and they may transmit influenza to patients. OBJECTIVES: To identify studies of vaccinating HCWs and the incidence of influenza, its complications and influenza-like illness (ILI) in individuals >/= 60 in long-term care facilities (LTCFs).


AUTHORS' CONCLUSIONS: No effect was shown for specific outcomes: laboratory-proven influenza, pneumonia and death from pneumonia. An effect was shown for the non-specific outcomes of ILI, GP consultations for ILI and all-cause mortality in individuals >/= 60. These non-specific outcomes are difficult to interpret because ILI includes many pathogens, and winter influenza contributes < 10% to all-cause mortality in individuals >/= 60. The key interest is preventing laboratory-proven influenza in individuals >/= 60, pneumonia and deaths from pneumonia, and we cannot draw such conclusions.

We conclude there is no evidence that vaccinating HCWs prevents influenza in elderly residents in LTCFs.
TheMercenary • Apr 8, 2010 2:05 pm
My experience is that HCW get sick a lot less than the general public. I still get the regular flu shot each year, I did not however get the most recent swine flu shot.
classicman • Apr 8, 2010 4:03 pm
Where is the study to see if HCW get sick less because the have better immune systems from being around sick people more than those who try to live in bubbles.
TheMercenary • Apr 8, 2010 8:03 pm
classicman;647146 wrote:
Where is the study to see if HCW get sick less because the have better immune systems from being around sick people more than those who try to live in bubbles.


Purely my experience. Find your own studies.
jinx • Apr 8, 2010 8:24 pm
This study isn't about health care workers getting or not getting sick, it's about the effectiveness of vaccinating the healthy/strong to protect the weak who are exposed to them.

"It is the terrain, milieu or environment that determines health or disease, NOT the pathogen." - Bechamp
TheMercenary • Apr 8, 2010 9:10 pm
I understood that, was just pointing out an observation and making a comment.
classicman • Apr 8, 2010 9:36 pm
classicman;647146 wrote:
Where is the study to see if HCW get sick less because the have better immune systems from being around sick people more than those who try to live in bubbles.


TheMercenary;647215 wrote:
Purely my experience. Find your own studies.

Don't be a dick. I was agreeing with you.
jinx;647222 wrote:
This study isn't about health care workers getting or not getting sick, it's about the effectiveness of vaccinating the healthy/strong to protect the weak who are exposed to them.

Oh I got that - was adding my 2 cents on a somewhat related tangent. I'll be over here - carry on.
skysidhe • Apr 9, 2010 10:57 am
sugarpop;550519 wrote:
I never get flu shots. Ever. they scare me.


I do not either. They make me terribly ill. More ill than if I just let nature take its course, which then,my symptoms are mild. I don't buy the reasoning that I already had the flu when I got the flu shot. I've had two flu shots several years apart and with the same result.

I did get the pneumonia shot because my lungs had been compromised for about a year. I think respiratory failure is the real threat.
Shawnee123 • Apr 9, 2010 11:03 am
I've never had a flu shot. If I can avoid it, I never will.
skysidhe • Apr 9, 2010 11:09 am
I've read a few articles about the link between the surge in Alzheimer's and the flu shot. It's not THE sole cause but it certainly can be a contributing factor perhaps.
Shawnee123 • Apr 9, 2010 11:12 am
I guess I'm just not that afraid of the flu. I understand that for people with compromised immune systems it might be a good idea, but I don't see the need for me to get one. How would I know if it worked, if I rarely get full-blown flu anyway?

Then when the swine thing hit and I said, from the get-go, it was a big bunch of hooey. I am so pissed people weren't dropping like flies a la The Stand.

Now, it's like the little boy who cried pandemic flu...I just can't get excited about it.
Undertoad • Apr 9, 2010 11:24 am
skysidhe;647400 wrote:
I've read a few articles about the link between the surge in Alzheimer's and the flu shot. It's not THE sole cause but it certainly can be a contributing factor perhaps.


via the Alzheimer's Association:

Myth 6: Flu shots increase risk of Alzheimer&#8217;s disease
Reality: A theory linking flu shots to a greatly increased risk of Alzheimer&#8217;s disease has been proposed by a U.S. doctor whose license was suspended by the South Carolina Board of Medical Examiners. Several mainstream studies link flu shots and other vaccinations to a reduced risk of Alzheimer's disease and overall better health.

A Nov. 27, 2001, Canadian Medical Journal report suggests older adults who were vaccinated against diphtheria or tetanus, polio, and influenza seemed to have a lower risk of developing Alzheimer&#8217;s disease than those not receiving these vaccinations. The full text of this report is posted on the journal&#8217;s Web site.

A report in the Nov. 3, 2004, JAMA found that annual flu shots for older adults were associated with a reduced risk of death from all causes. The abstract of that report is posted on PubMed.
skysidhe • Apr 9, 2010 9:56 pm
Hey I don't remember posting that! j/k

Ok I went trying to find medical evidence to support my claim besides squidoo although what I found is sited by squidoo too.

Google search results the same sources mainly DR. Fudenberg and John Hopkins. I only found one instance of DR. Haley as being used as a supporting claim.

This is what I found.

Dr. Fudenberg at the NVIC International Vaccine Conference, Arlington, VA September, 1997. Quoted with permission.
A serious concern: Alzheimer's Disesase
Hugh Fudenberg, MD, an immunogeneticist and biologist with nearly 850 papers published in peer review journals, has reported that if an individual had five consecutive flu shots between 1970 and 1980 (the years studied), his/her chances of getting Alzheimer's Disease is ten times higher than if they had zero, one, or two shots.[vii]


Dr. Boyd Haley, Professor and Chair of the Department of Chemistry at the University of Kentucky, Lexington has done extensive research in the area of mercury toxicity and the brain. Haley's research has established a likely connection between mercury toxicity and Alzheimer's disease. [viii] In a paper published in collaboration with researchers at University of Calgary, Haley stated that "seven of the characteristic markers that we look for to distinguish Alzheimer's disease can be produced in normal brain tissues, or cultures of neurons, by the addition of extremely low levels of mercury."[ix]



John's Hopkins Newsletter Nov 1998.

I could not find the Newsletter from John Hopkins although it has been sited as a source. If I have some time later I would love to try to find it but I am very busy. John Hopkins has a website and I searched for awhile but must give it up to get some work done.

I think John Hopkins has a good reputation but I don't know about the other two doctors.
jinx • May 15, 2010 11:54 am
In Aussie news...

Flu vaccination ban goes national after fever, convulsions in children


Seasonal flu vaccinations across Australia for children under five have been suspended after 23 children in Western Australia were admitted to hospital with convulsions following their injections.
One child, aged 1, remains in a coma in a Perth hospital.



Parents hammer hotline as 250 adverse flu jab reactions reported

MORE than 250 adverse flu jab reactions have now been reported in under-fives. Australia's adverse events hotline says its phones are "running hot" with calls from parents, and the scare has spread to New Zealand, with the Health Ministry saying it had recorded at least three cases of febrile convulsions following vaccination.
In Western Australia, where a potential spike in cases was first spotted, the number of children under five who have suffered fevers after being immunised has now risen to 251, The Australian reports.
wolf • May 15, 2010 5:27 pm
Somehow after skipping the flu shot this year, I also skipped on the flu.
jinx • Jun 24, 2010 10:44 am
WHO swine flu experts 'linked' with drug companies


Key scientists behind World Health Organization advice on stockpiling of pandemic flu drugs had financial ties with companies which stood to profit, an investigation has found.
The British Medical Journal says the scientists had openly declared these interests in other publications yet WHO made no mention of the links.
Conflicts of Interest
WHO and the pandemic flu "conspiracies"


A joint investigation by the BMJ and the Bureau of Investigative Journalism has uncovered evidence that raises troubling questions about how WHO managed conflicts of interest among the scientists who advised its pandemic planning, and about the transparency of the science underlying its advice to governments.
TheMercenary • Jun 24, 2010 10:50 am
How much of this do we (the public) have to be told about these relationships between government and the business of medicine before people wake up?
jinx • Jun 24, 2010 10:57 am
What can people do, once they're awake, to change the way things are done?
TheMercenary • Jun 24, 2010 11:26 am
jinx;666027 wrote:
What can people do, once they're awake, to change the way things are done?


Just keep spreading the word and exposing them. But it is really hard to get the mainstream media to pick up on this stuff.