Hero or Greedy American?
From Yahoo
Jessica Lynch Was Not Raped, Say Iraqi Doctors
By Rosalind Russell
NASSIRIYA, Iraq (Reuters) - Iraqi doctors who treated U.S. soldier Jessica Lynch dismissed on Monday allegations made in her biography that she was raped during her capture in Iraq (news - web sites), saying she had the best possible care.
Surgeons who treated Private Lynch for multiple injuries after her convoy was attacked near the southern city of Nassiriya in the initial days of the U.S.-led invasion in March said they were shocked and hurt by accusations that she was sexually assaulted.
In "I am a Soldier, Too: The Jessica Lynch Story" to be published on Tuesday, the author says U.S. military medical records indicated Lynch was raped and sodomized before she was evacuated from a Nassiriya hospital in a U.S. commando raid widely publicized through the world.
The ABC television network quoted Lynch, unconscious after her injuries, as saying she did not remember any sexual assault, adding: "Even just the thinking about that, that's too painful."
A rocket-propelled grenade attack on Lynch's Humvee military vehicle on March 23 left her with a broken leg, arm and ankle and a gash across her head. Eleven other soldiers were killed in the attack in which the Humvee crashed into another vehicle.
Dr Jamal Kadhim Shwail was the first doctor to examine Lynch when she was brought to Nassiriya's military hospital by Iraqi special police.
Shwail said Lynch was lying in the crowded reception of the hospital, unconscious and in shock from blood loss.
She was wearing her uniform including a flak jacket, military trousers and boots, none of her clothes had been unbuttoned or removed, as the book claims, he said.
"We only had a few minutes to save her life, we found a vein in her neck to give her fluids and blood," Shwail told Reuters at his home in Nassiriya.
A team of five doctors treated Lynch, who was given an anaesthetic to allow a 15-cm (six-inch) cut to her head to be stitched and her fractures realigned.
He said her flak jacket was removed and her clothes were cut away to expose the injured sites. The anesthetist cut away an area around her groin to insert a catheter to drain urine. "NO WAY"
Lynch, now 20, was the same age as his eldest daughter Noor, said Shwail. A copy of People magazine with the blonde soldier's smiling face on the cover lay on the couch beside him.
"She was a woman, young and alone in a strange country," he said. "It was our duty to look after her and we did. Now people are saying she was raped... it pains us."
Shwail said he saw no signs of rape but neither was he looking for them.
"The thought did not cross my mind. Her injuries were consistent with severe trauma, a car crash, nothing else. Her clothes were not torn, her boots had not been removed. There is no way (she could have been raped)."
Shortly afterwards Lynch was transferred to Saddam Hospital in Nassiriya, now renamed Nassiriya General.
There, Dr Mahdi Khafazji operated on her fractured right femur when her condition had stabilized. He said he cleaned her body before surgery and found no signs of a sexual assault.
"I examined her very carefully," he said at his private clinic in the center of Nassiriya. "I cleaned her body including her genitalia. She had no sign of raping or sodomizing."
"ASSAULT WOULD HAVE KILLED HER"
He said Lynch's injuries were so severe she would have died had she been sexually assaulted after she was wounded.
"If she had been raped there is no way she could have survived it. She was fighting for her life, her body was broken. What sort of an animal would even think of that?"
During the days Lynch was in hospital, Nassiriya was battered by fighting.
Hundreds of civilian casualties poured into the hospital, but a senior medical team assigned to Lynch made sure she had the best care the hospital could provide, and a female nurse was constantly at her bedside, said Dr Khudair al-Hazbar, then deputy director of the Saddam hospital.
"It was war, but we cared about her and we did everything we could for her," he said. "I spoke to her every day. She was frightened, but polite to us. I know she is grateful"
On April 1, after Iraqi forces had deserted the hospital, it was raided by U.S. commandos. The event was filmed by the U.S. military through a night-vision lens and Lynch was stretchered away.
"They attacked the hospital at night. There were explosions outside which broke the windows. The patients were terrified," he said. "The Americans knew the Iraqi military had gone so why they didn't come for her quietly, I don't know."
Hazbar, now hospital director, said he was shocked by the rape allegations.
"Who is saying this? In our culture, we protect women," he said. "Everyone was very sympathetic toward her. In our culture it is very unusual -- a woman, a soldier."
Publishers of the authorized biography by Rick Bragg stood by the anal rape claim.
"A doctor who treated Lynch (at a U.S. military base) and who was privy to all her medical records has reported that some of her injuries are consistent with an assault. What more verification do you need?" a spokesman said.
[COLOR=indigo]How exactly, is she a hero? Her humvee got hit by a rocket, she is one of the few (if not the only one) to survive, and she's a hero? Lucky maybe. Survivor, maybe. But hero? Why? Her biography said she was raped, the doctors say she wasn't. SO.... Hero or Greedy American?[/COLOR]
We all need a blond haired blue eyed "hero" to get all emotional over. If not, how would the american cattle keep finding reasons to believe in this action? From what I understand, she was turned down at evil wal-mart, so she joined the military.
I for one cannot find a speck of spite, sitting here on my ass in great comfort while others take such risks on my behalf.
on your behalf???? How so?
She was injured while in the service of the country of which I'm a citizen.
that's a pretty vague and complacent standpoint.
Yeah, she did serve for the country, but there's such an arrogance about her attitude. Her lack of modesty is definitely unattractive. She's profitting from her misfortune (bravery?), which is okay since it's a harrowing tale - but she's made no effort whatsoever to address the public as to why she agreed to the book/movie, and so soon after her rescue. It's mostly public perception, but I don't find her very respectable, especially if I'm supposed to view her as a heroine.
Originally posted by insoluble
that's a pretty vague and complacent standpoint.
How do you mean his comment is vague and complacent? I have a friend who's been activated and is heading to the Gulf, and my niece is a Blackhawk pilot hading to Korea. I imagine that she's going to be re-routed. :( Our own Tobiasly is there on the ground in Iraq right now.
We're in the damn country, right or wrong we've toppled the government there. I'm hoping that Bush has some kind of diplomatic rabbit he can pull out of his ass, and that Tobiasly, my friend, and my niece can help get us out.
This was about Lynch, wasn't it? Yeah. Poster child all the way. I don't think anyone will ever know, but I don't think it's beyond her to lie about her experience.
I've been meaning to start a thread about Lynch and her comrades, but I haven't got it together yet. I believe she is a hero, because:
1. Even though I don't support wars in general (and especially not this one), I have a great deal of respect and admiration for those who put their lives on the line for this country. And she really has been through hell.
2. And this is a big one, Jessica Lynch is now taking on the US government. It was reported last week that she made statements to Diane Sawyer that she feels her story was misrepresented by the US Military for propagandistic purposes (WHAT??? No! You don't say!) and that this was wrong. (This interview will be on Prime Time Live tomorrow night.)
As far as the rape question goes, I don't know why her (US) doctors would lie about her being raped (remember, she never said she was raped. If it happened, she does not remember it.) Also, nobody knows whether her bones were broken in the humvee accident, or if her captors broke her bones, possibly after they raped her. She hasn't made any statement about the alleged rape other than telling Diane Sawyer that it's a painful thought. Basically, it's Iraqi doctors' word vs. our doctors.
I got the impression she's pretty meek. If the writer. Rick Bragg (what a name) took liberties with the story, I doubt if she would buck him.
Originally posted by Uryoces
I don't think it's beyond her to lie about her experience.
It's excellent that you're an expert on the subject! Please provide the evidence that led you to the conclusion that it's not "beyond her to lie about her experience". I understand that you were simply posting an opinion; I'd just like to know what makes you think she might be a liar. 'Cause I think that you really have no reason whatsoever to believe that other than your suspicions - in which case, I don't think it's beyond you to be a child molestor.
Originally posted by OnyxCougar
How exactly, is she a hero? Her humvee got hit by a rocket, she is one of the few (if not the only one) to survive, and she's a hero? Lucky maybe. Survivor, maybe. But hero? Why? Her biography said she was raped, the doctors say she wasn't. SO.... Hero or Greedy American?
Originally posted by insoluble
We all need a blond haired blue eyed "hero" to get all emotional over. If not, how would the american cattle keep finding reasons to believe in this action? From what I understand, she was turned down at evil wal-mart, so she joined the military.
I don't know that she's a hero, but I do know one thing: it takes a hell of a lot more guts to even end up in Iraq than it does to sit in your armchair and speculate, to criticize from afar. Is she a hero? I don't know. But I doubt the word could be twisted in such a manner to make it apply to you folks.
Originally posted by breakingnews
but she's made no effort whatsoever to address the public as to why she agreed to the book/movie, and so soon after her rescue.
What the fuck does she owe us again? I just checked and I came up with <b>nothing</b>.
You've made no effort whatsoever to address the public regarding concerns you may enjoy scat play. Whether or not you do is <b>your own fucking business</b>. Just like her decisions are hers. I don't imagine you'd enjoy people picking over your life and questioning every decision you made, so why does she deserve any different?
Why is everyone picking on this poor woman?
She was terribly injured in service to our country (i.e., both our sorry asses) and the Pentagon and the media decided to "manufacture" a hero. She does NOT impress me as a willing participant and has publicly contradicted Army accounts of the battle. Do you know how much GUTS it takes to publicly disagree with the Army?!?!?
Jessica is a hero - she suffered terribly for her country and she is debunking lies left and right. Nuff said.
The more I think about it, and the more I read about it, the more I think she probably wasn't raped. But this has nothing to do with her. She is not running around yelling, "I was raped! I was raped!"
All she has said about the Iraqi hospital, is that she thinks they treated her well. She says a nurse there used to sing to her. Though the Iraqi lawyer whose actions led to her rescue said he saw her slapped, she says she does not remember being slapped.
I also heard there was a story in the British media that the hospital had tried to turn her over to the US first, but the US military said, "No. Wait 'til tomorrow." (I presume they were waiting for the camera equipment.)
At this time, the Iraqi doctors seem more credible to me than the US Military doctors, because the military has already repeatedly lied and distorted what happened to Private Lynch. Luckily, there are people trying to tell the truth. And Jessica Lynch is one of them.
I understand that you were simply posting an opinion;
That's about all you understood. What the hell crawled up your ass? I simply stated that she could be lying. I don't know. I'm glad to see she wasn't another statistic.
Forget about the Brit media: the BBC alleged all kinds of things about the rescue, including a bunch of things that couldn't possibly be true and were later proven wrong, such as the notion that US Special Forces were shooting blanks in the operation.
Originally posted by Uryoces
That's about all you understood. What the hell crawled up your ass? I simply stated that she could be lying. I don't know. I'm glad to see she wasn't another statistic.
And I simply stated you could be a child molestor.
From MSN
Does Pfc. Jessica Lynch Own the Movie Rights to Her Life?
By Eugene Volokh
Posted Monday, April 14, 2003
NBC is planning to make a movie about Pfc. Jessica Lynch, the rescued American POW, even if it doesn't get her permission. Can the network do that? Doesn't NBC need to buy the movie rights to her life?
Yes, it can, and, no, it doesn't—so long as NBC sticks to the facts.
People don't own "movie rights" to their lives. Facts, even facts about particular people, are not exclusively owned by anyone. That's why newspapers may write about people without their permission, and why biographers may create "unauthorized" biographies. The term "movie rights" originally comes from copyright law, under which authors own the exclusive rights to authorize movies based on their works of fiction. But copyright law only protects creative expression, not facts.
The so-called "right of publicity" does give people a limited right to control commercial use of their names, likenesses, and identities. But the right doesn't extend to news reporting, biography, fiction, and most entertainment, or to the advertising of such works. Generally, the right of publicity applies only to commercial advertising of other products and to merchandising. So, NBC could make a movie about Lynch without her permission, but it probably couldn't sell Jessica Lynch action figures.
Likewise, the so-called "disclosure of private facts" tort (which is one of the several different legal theories that sometimes go by the label "right of privacy") lets people block publication of certain highly intimate facts about themselves. But this tort has been defined quite narrowly—largely for First Amendment reasons—and doesn't apply to any facts that courts conclude are "newsworthy." So even fairly private details of Lynch's captivity likely would be legal for NBC to report. That holds true even if Lynch is found to be a "private figure" rather than a "public figure." The law recognizes that newsworthy events can happen even to private figures, and that those events may legally be reported (or used as the basis for TV movies).
Why do we often hear of studios buying "movie rights" to people's lives? One reason is to get the subject's cooperation. Lynch doubtless knows lots of things about her captivity that others don't know (or aren't telling). So the NBC people might make a better movie if Lynch and her family were talking to them. NBC might also want to get Lynch to promise not to talk to any other networks so that it can hawk its movie as an "exclusive."
A second reason is that Lynch might be able to sue if NBC gets some facts wrong. If an error in the TV movie injures her reputation, she could sue for defamation; but even if the false claims reflect well on her, she might still be able to sue NBC for placing her in a "false light," so long as the error would be something that a reasonable person would find highly offensive. (For instance, if NBC exaggerates Lynch's heroism, she might be able to sue on the grounds that a reasonable person would find it highly offensive to get credit for heroic acts she didn't commit.) And it's quite possible that NBC will get some facts wrong. For instance, since the network doesn't know just how Lynch interacted with her captors, any dialogue or action they include in those scenes will necessarily be fictionalized, possibly to a substantial degree. By getting Lynch's cooperation, NBC could also get her to promise not to sue even if there are some inaccuracies. In this sense, "movie rights" really means "the right to make mistakes."
Finally, a third reason: Though the rules Explainer describes above are pretty well-established, their precise boundaries aren't always completely clear, which leaves room for (expensive) legal debate. Studios may therefore sometimes pay off the subject to prevent the risk of a lawsuit that—even if it ultimately loses—could possibly delay a multimillion dollar production.
Originally posted by dave
I don't know that she's a hero, but I do know one thing: it takes a hell of a lot more guts to even end up in Iraq than it does to sit in your armchair and speculate, to criticize from afar. Is she a hero? I don't know. But I doubt the word could be twisted in such a manner to make it apply to you folks.
[COLOR=indigo]And you don't know shit about me either, Dave. I could have saved peoples lives in a fire, or been in the Air Force, or done things that proclaimed me as a hero. I didn't say she wasn't brave, I didn't say she wasn't a hero.
I have more than a few relatives and friends over there RIGHT NOW. To even imply that I don't hold respect for every single one of the men and women that serve in our Armed Forces, whether they're in Iraq, Afghanistan, England, Saudi Arabia, Camp Pendleton, Camp Lejeune, Mississippi, Nevada or Kuwait or any where else is completely out of line. So because I bring up a point of discussion there's no way the word hero could be twisted to apply to me? Fuck You. [/COLOR]
To me I say "GREEDY AMERICAN" just trying to get on TV like the rest of them. No hero at all.
Originally posted by OnyxCougar
I could have saved peoples lives in a fire, or been in the Air Force, or done things that proclaimed me as a hero. I didn't say she wasn't brave, I didn't say she wasn't a hero.
But you didn't.
I have more than a few relatives and friends over there RIGHT NOW. To even imply that I don't hold respect for every single one of the men and women that serve in our Armed Forces, whether they're in Iraq, Afghanistan, England, Saudi Arabia, Camp Pendleton, Camp Lejeune, Mississippi, Nevada or Kuwait or any where else is completely out of line.
No it's not. You made that abundantly clear when you questioned whether or not she was a "Greedy American". Such a question does not show respect.
So because I bring up a point of discussion there's no way the word hero could be twisted to apply to me? Fuck You.
WOAH, YOU REALLY TOOK IT TO ME!
Heroes don't sit back and question whether or not someone who still can't walk due to injuries sustained in the service of their country is a "Greedy American".
I stand by my original analysis that the word couldn't be perverted enough to make it accurately describe those that would sit back and say such things.
Originally posted by r9703410
To me I say "GREEDY AMERICAN" just trying to get on TV like the rest of them. No hero at all.
<i>"We must recognise that we have a great inheritance in our possession, which represents the prolonged achievement of the centuries; that there is not one of our simple uncounted rights today for which better men than we are have not died on the scaffold or the battlefield. We have not only a great treasure; we have a great cause. Are we taking every measure within our power to defend that cause?"</i>
Sigh...
Look if you want to bitch and moan and analyze "The Fake Hero's of Our Century" why don't you look at sports stars?
Come one, I'm seeing magazines with front covers like "Strugle of Kobe Bryant" and commentary from people "He was my hero, my role model. I don't believe he could've ever done these things!"
Hero or not, she deserves the fame and respect far more than most "heros" of today. Who cares if she was raped or not? I don't know about you but I'd be pretty upset if I were to find myself battered and broken boned in an Iraqi hospital in one of the hotspots. Hero? Maybe not, but certainly worthy of some respect.
[COLOR=indigo]Agreed, FnF. Certainly worthy of respect.
But to me, her service to our country does not instantly make her a hero.
If you consider a hero to be one that survived a horrific situation that nearly kills them, then yes, she is a hero. And using that definition, so am I. So are any of us that have had a brush with death and lived.
It comes down to your definition of hero. Is a hero someone that saves someones life? To me, yes. Firemen, Policemen, Joe Guy on the street that puts his life in danger to save another. That is a hero.
And while PFC Lynch deserves respect and gratitude for serving her country in time of war, and, I believe, qualifies for the purple heart (being wounded in wartime), that does not automatically define her as a hero. Courageous, brave, survivor, yes.
The only fact we know for sure is that she survived a terrible thing. Something no one should have to go through. But a hero, to me, means more than that.
So to some, like dave, she could be a hero. And that's fine. It seems his definition of hero is different than mine.
And by the way....respect does not mean above question.
[/COLOR]
[size=1]Edit: tried to clarify my thoughts a little more.[/size]
I don't think she's a hero, per se. I just think she deserves more than having her name dragged through the mud.
(To clarify: your original question is "Hero or Greedy American?" It is not "Is she one of these two things?" - it is "She is either one or the other - which is it?" Your standpoint is that she is not a hero, and so the insinuation is that she is a greedy American.
I disagree with this viewpoint because she hasn't been hawking her story to the world. The "hero" figure is a creation of the military and the media. Her involvement in the whole ordeal was simply being the person upon whom the image was projected.
I don't look at her as a hero, but I surely don't look at her as a "Greedy American" either. The notion that the latter is an accurate description is baseless when facts are considered.
She's just starting her recovery process, one that will take a long time. The possibility of her being raped will put a question in her head that will poke and prod her for the rest of her life. She deserves a little more than namecalling.)
[COLOR=indigo]Agreed. But the media doesn't care what really happened, the author of the so called "biography" doesn't give a shit if people think she was raped. And the bitch of the whole thing is that ultimately, the only one it hurts in the end is PFC Lynch.
Because people, in general, being the stupid things they are, will believe what's fed to them, and now this 19 year old from small town West Virginia has to live the rest of her life being known as "rape victim" and "hero" and whatever else, even if she wasn't. She hasn't gone public, I think, in part because she doesn't remember much, and partly because she doesn't want all this BS to begin with. I remember an interview with her parents, when she called them from Germany, and they said, "She doesn't consider herself a hero." Well, she is whatever the media says she is.
Regardless of whether or not she has "gone public" with her story, people are going to wonder why she "sold out" because her "story" (that isn't her story) was sold to the networks. So tell me there aren't people out there, especially in other countries, who think she's nothing but another Greedy American cash cow.
[size=1] I was writing this as you were writing yours, above. And to many, it comes down to one or the other. If you're paying attention, (and I know you are), you realize I don't put my viewpoint in on the first post, I just throw the question out there. And it has bitten me in the ass on occasion. You, more than most here, understand the value of "throw it out there and see what you get". I hope my posts have clarified my position on this one.[/size][/COLOR]
We care about their opinion?
Greedy American? Good Hell. A greedy person would be milking sympathy from this experience for all it was worth, and exaggerating her own bravery. She is doing the exact opposite... to the point that she is taking the US military to task for exaggerating her heroism. This shows incredible strength of character, much more than your average person. And despite this, you suggest that she may just be a "Greedy American." What has she done that is worthy of a "hero" label?
1) She joined the US military, knowingly placing her life and safety in potential danger for the sake of her country (and therefore, indirectly, for you).
2) She is telling the truth where it would be much easier and more self-serving to quietly allow the lies to be left undisturbed.
I suggest that she IS a hero, if only in her strength character. A hero isn't always someone who laughs at the face of danger, sometimes it's just someone brave enough to make the difficult chioices, like telling your country the truth when lies are more convenient.
In contrast, you haven't even admitted that you're an ass for questioning her character despite her incredible display of moral conviction.
[COLOR=indigo]Questioning anything doesn't make me an ass.
There is nothing - no idea, no character, no person, no country, no law, no God, no concept, no thought that I would consider myself an ass for questioning.
It's when I stop questioning things...stop investigating, stop asking, stop exploring, stop learning... that's when I'm an ass.[/COLOR]
I know this was a controversy not highlighted by too many news sources. I won't comment; decide for yourself.
Lynch informant makes first trip to West Virginia
By BRETT DUNLAP
CHARLESTON - When Mohammed Odeh al-Rehaief first saw Jessica Lynch in an Iraqi hospital, he did not see an enemy soldier or an invader. He saw ''a child of God'' who needed his help.
The Iraqi lawyer, whose information helped lead U.S. soldiers to rescue the captured Wirt County resident, was in Charleston Friday during his first trip to the Mountain State to see the area where Lynch was from. He is scheduled to visit Wirt County Monday.
(AP on day of visit)
Al-Rehaief, his wife and young daughter wrapped up a four-day stay in West Virginia on Monday with a trip to Wirt County that included a stop at the Palestine Post Office, where a peace garden was planted in his honor last spring. ...
Al-Rehaief was given a plastic-wrapped commemorative envelope with a Purple Heart stamp issued earlier this year by the U.S. Postal Service. Similar envelopes, with the stamp's cancellation saying, "Jessica Lynch Station, Palestine, WV," were sold during Lynch's homecoming in July.
He also was given a souvenir crock and a jar of homemade apple butter. ...
Al-Rehaief next visited the high school, Lynch's alma mater, where he was named an honorary West Virginian. However, al-Rehaief did not meet with Lynch during the trip. [!]
"I hope to meet her soon, but to meet you is enough for me," he told the crowd.
The Lynch family's attorney, Stephen Goodwin, said Friday that the 20-year-old former Army supply clerk was too busy to meet with al-Rehaief because she is still going to rehabilitation five days a week and is dealing with commitments related to her book's upcoming release.
[COLOR=indigo]Interesting.[/COLOR]
Keep in mind the visit happened Oct. 24.
Even in her hometown of Palestine, WV, there are those who question the Jessica craze. Just over a week ago, Mohammed al-Rehaief, the doctor who risked his life to tell US soldiers where they could find Miss Lynch, visited Palestine to meet Jessica Lynch, but she claimed she was too busy to see him. "A lot of people thought that was disrespectful," said one Palestine local to reporter Julian Coman. "She should have found the time. Some people think this whole experience might have changed her."
Originally posted by OnyxCougar
[COLOR=indigo]There is nothing - no idea, no character, no person, no country, no law, no God, no concept, no thought that I would consider myself an ass for questioning. [/COLOR]
I agree wholeheartedly.
Originally posted by OnyxCougar
[COLOR=indigo]It's when I stop questioning things...stop investigating, stop asking, stop exploring, stop learning... that's when I'm an ass.[/COLOR]
Yes, but there is a distinct difference between questioning someone privately, and questioning them publicly. You have publicly suggested that this person, who has shown incredible strength of character, is motivated only by greed. You then offered only ambiguous commentary on your own views. Such questioning is akin to outright accusation, and if you don't appreciate that, then you don't quite grasp some important concepts of communication.
This is true in the same manner that I would be an ass if I asked "Was Hitler evil, or just a misunderstood savior?" Not to the same degree, obviously, but I exaggerate to illustrate the point. Publicly posing a question contrary to the common view suggests that I hold that contrary opinion, unless of course I state otherwise. Hitler
was evil, and publicly suggesting otherwise would make me an ass. Jessica Lynch
is not behaving like a greedy person, and suggesting otherwise makes you an ass.
For the record, I appreciate the irony in the fact that I am being an ass while suggesting that you are an ass. But that doesn't make me wrong.
...Also for the record, I acknowledge that it is your right to hold opinions that cause me to think you are being an ass. There's obviously no absolute right or wrong here.
Originally posted by hot_pastrami
Yes, but there is a distinct difference between questioning someone privately, and questioning them publicly. You have publicly suggested that this person, who has shown incredible strength of character, is motivated only by greed. You then offered only ambiguous commentary on your own views.
[color=indigo]
Let me restate for clarity. I don't think she's a hero. I'm still undecided whether or not she's a Greedy American. I think she's somewhere in between. I'm still questioning it. And to be honest, what I think of her doesn't make a damn bit of difference. I brought the point up for discussion.
And by the way, I don't see how your opinion on whether I'm an ass or not contributes to the discussion, other than you namecalling. I think it weakens the point, because then I'm only responding to your namecalling. Whether I'm an ass or not is irrelevant to the point.[/color]
I don't hate her. But I do hate celebrities. Someone pointed out something about sports stars them being fake and all that yeah thats true. I don't see the point of her name being EVERY WHERE! Ok she was POW leave it alone. If they made a story about every POW that would take forever. I think they did it just because shes a girl.
Not a hero, not greedy, just a victim trying to get something out of a very raw deal.
Originally posted by OnyxCougar
Let me restate for clarity. I don't think she's a hero. I'm still undecided whether or not she's a Greedy American. I think she's somewhere in between. I'm still questioning it. And to be honest, what I think of her doesn't make a damn bit of difference. I brought the point up for discussion.
What you think of her makes every bit of difference to the discussion. Discussion is largely about sharing opinions. If all we did was toss around facts and no opinions, discussions would be about as interesting as Barry Manilow on Valium.
Originally posted by OnyxCougar
And by the way, I don't see how your opinion on whether I'm an ass or not contributes to the discussion, other than you namecalling. I think it weakens the point, because then I'm only responding to your namecalling. Whether I'm an ass or not is irrelevant to the point.
If you re-read my original post, you might note that the fact that I thought you were being an ass was very much a seondary point to the rest of the comment. It just so happens that you chose to respond only to that secondary point. You never responded to the main thrust of my post. Besides, it is an opinion, and opinions definitely contribute to the discussion. I shared the Ass comment as a device to indicate how powerfully I disagreed with the stance which it appeared that you were taking.
Incidentally, I don't think that you, as a person, are an ass; but in suggesting what you did, your behavior was ass-like (in my opinion). I know from previous posts you've made that you are thoughful and intelligent, but I also know that everyone is capable of being an ass from time to time, even if by accident. I demonstrate this ability frequently.
Originally posted by r9703410
I think they did it just because shes a girl.
And white, and anglo, and pretty.
Look at what happened to her buddies
Lori Piestewa and
Shoshana Johnson.
You have publicly suggested that this person, who has shown incredible strength of character, is motivated only by greed.
Greedy American? Good Hell. A greedy person would be milking sympathy from this experience for all it was worth, and exaggerating her own bravery. She is doing the exact opposite... to the point that she is taking the US military to task for exaggerating her heroism. This shows incredible strength of character, much more than your average person. And despite this, you suggest that she may just be a "Greedy American."
[color=indigo]
She may be taking the military to task, but is she taking NBC to task? She can't make time to visit the guy that ultimately was responsible for saving her life because she has commitments to her book? Please. I don't see strength of character there.[/color]
What has she done that is worthy of a "hero" label?
1) She joined the US military, knowingly placing her life and safety in potential danger for the sake of her country (and therefore, indirectly, for you).
[color=indigo]
While I appreciate that she joined the military, and that she put her ass on the line for her country (and indirectly me), that does not automatically equal hero.
The guy that threw a grenade into his CO's tent was in the military, too. Is he a hero?
That bacon from the other thread...he was in the military too. That make him a hero?
Dubya was in the military. That make him a hero?
My exhusband has been in the military for damn near 20 years. That make him a hero?
My nephew is in the Marines and was in one of the units that entered Baghdad that day. He was in one of the units that Oliver North was embedded in. Is my nephew a hero?
No.
[/color]
2) She is telling the truth where it would be much easier and more self-serving to quietly allow the lies to be left undisturbed.
I suggest that she IS a hero, if only in her strength character. A hero isn't always someone who laughs at the face of danger, sometimes it's just someone brave enough to make the difficult chioices, like telling your country the truth when lies are more convenient.
[color=indigo]
The best she can come up with is "I don't remember." She's not out there on CNN saying, "You know Bill, I'm not a hero, and to be honest, I don't want the attention. I want to go home, do my physical therapy, walk again, and live the rest of my life in peace in West Virginia. I'm no different than any other man or woman that was over there."
If she was doing that, I'd have no problems with her. But she's not. She's busy with her new book. The one, presumably, that says she was raped. When all the doctors say she wasn't. She has a lawyer. Why isn't she issuing statements through him? Why isn't she prosecuting the jerk that said she was raped? She isn't out there defending her ...I don't know what to call it... non-hero-ness. Where's the strength in character in that? To stand up and say to the world, "I'm not a hero. I wasn't raped. I wish this would all end." THAT is character. But she's not doing that. Bet she'll be at the book signing, tho.
Look. I respect she got injured in a war waged by our country. She may not be a Greedy American, I'm still not convinced. But to me, she CERTAINLY isn't a hero.[/color]
[size=1] Edit: I'm interested in her statements to Diane Sawyer. We'll see what she says and what kind of character she shows. I'd sincerely like to be able to say, "PFC Lynch is not taking advantage of her horrible ordeal." I really would. [/size]
Originally posted by OnyxCougar
The best she can come up with is "I don't remember."
What if she, gasp, <b>can't fucking remember?</b> I love all you people that second guess everyone to sound all fucking smart. Look, take a fucking hike. You and a few other assholes have next to nothing good to say, while slinging allegations that she's a liar or that "I don't remember" isn't good enough. Doctors have explained that the chances of her remembering are not very good, and that's not good enough for you. Okay. It was fun having you. Find another board.
She's not out there on CNN saying, "You know Bill, I'm not a hero, and to be honest, I don't want the attention. I want to go home, do my physical therapy, walk again, and live the rest of my life in peace in West Virginia. I'm no different than any other man or woman that was over there."
Again, I fail to see how she's obligated to do <b>any</b> of this.
If she was doing that, I'd have no problems with her. But she's not. She's busy with her new book. The one, presumably, that says she was raped. When all the doctors say she wasn't.
Not <b>all</b> the doctors. Some doctors. That weren't looking for signs of sexual abuse. They can't possibly know what did or did not happen to her before she got there. I have no idea whether or not she was raped; I just know that, right now, it's impossible to say either way. In other words, stuff it.
She has a lawyer. Why isn't she issuing statements through him? Why isn't she prosecuting the jerk that said she was raped? She isn't out there defending her ...I don't know what to call it... non-hero-ness. Where's the strength in character in that? To stand up and say to the world, "I'm not a hero. I wasn't raped. I wish this would all end."
Why dontcha try reading some time? She's said that she doesn't consider herself a hero, that other people who have risked their lives are the actual heroes. She can't say for sure whether or not she was raped, so why the fuck would she say that she wasn't? She hasn't been out there saying "I was raped" either. Are you fucking retarded? Do you read anything other than the bullshit that other retards are spewing?
Originally posted by OnyxCougar
[color=indigo]
She's not out there on CNN saying, "You know Bill, I'm not a hero, and to be honest, I don't want the attention. I want to go home, do my physical therapy, walk again, and live the rest of my life in peace in West Virginia. I'm no different than any other man or woman that was over there."
If she was doing that, I'd have no problems with her. But she's not. [/color]
What? This is practically ALL she is saying. Did you miss the headlines that said, "Jessica Lynch: I Am Not A Hero"?
She says she's not a hero, she didn't shoot or kill or even fight.
"My weapon did jam and I did not shoot, not a round, nothing," Lynch tells Sawyer. "I'm not about to take credit for ... something that I didn't do. But that may have been Lori (Piestewa) that fought fiercely till her death. You know, that may have been her. But that wasn't me, and I'm not taking credit for it.''
And meanwhile her
gung-ho brother is being shipped out, but she says:
We went and we did our job, and that was to go to war, but I wish I hadn't done it - I wish it had never happened.
... if it had never happened, Lori would be alive and all the rest of the soldiers would be alive. And none of this would have happened.
[COLOR=indigo]For shit's sake, Dave, calm down. You're going to have a stroke or something.
To be honest, I don't give a rats' ass if she was raped or if she wasn't, in fact I hope she can't remember it if she was, because it's NOT FUN.
I didn't say she was a liar. Not once. And you know what? It doesn't matter if she's a liar or not. She's a hero to America whether she was raped or not, whather she remembers or not, or whether she disputes it or not. The media has decided she is, so she is.
I don't care if she got a 15 million dollar movie deal. And she's NOT obligated to contest anything the media has said about her. You're absolutely right. But HP made the point about strength of character, and I replied with my opinion about what that means to me. So deal with it.
I don't CARE about PFC Lynch. She doesn't pay my rent, she's not in my family, I never met her. If she lived or died in Iraq, it would be another number to me in the big picture. She doesn't affect me one bit.
Did she get a raw deal? Yes. She surely did. I posted the article to spur discussion, and then gave my opinion.
If you don't like it, too fucking bad.
*I* didn't see any of her statements to that effect, so *I* can't comment on them. And no, I'm not fucking retarded.
It's just an opinion, Dave, so don't bust a vessel or anything.
[/COLOR]
Originally posted by bmgb
[COLOR=indigo]As I've stated, no, I didn't see that.[/COLOR]
Your argument intentionally overlooks some very important details:
Originally posted by OnyxCougar
She can't make time to visit the guy that ultimately was responsible for saving her life because she has commitments to her book?
1) I wouldn't say that he ultimately saved her life... the article says "The Iraqi lawyer, whose
information helped lead U.S. soldiers to rescue the captured Wirt County resident..." (emphasis mine). So, he told somebody that she was there, and that information
helped lead US soldiers to her. Helpful? Yes. Ultimately responsible for saving her life? No. That honor goes to the soldiers who actually went in and got her out.
2) It's not only her book commitments, but her 5-days-a-week physical therapy. So the woman doesn't use some of her very limited free time to meet with an Iraqi citizen? Gasp!
Originally posted by OnyxCougar
While I appreciate that she joined the military, and that she put her ass on the line for her country (and indirectly me), that does not automatically equal hero.
The guy that threw a grenade into his CO's tent was in the military, too. Is he a hero?
That bacon from the other thread...he was in the military too. That make him a hero?
Dubya was in the military. That make him a hero?
My exhusband has been in the military for damn near 20 years. That make him a hero?
My nephew is in the Marines and was in one of the units that entered Baghdad that day. He was in one of the units that Oliver North was embedded in. Is my nephew a hero?
No.
Well, you have a point. Joining the military isn't going to automatically make anyone a hero. But if that person was already a decent, honest person, and that person put herself in physical danger and risked her life for her country, it makes her something closer to a hero than most of the population, probably including you.
Originally posted by OnyxCougar
The best she can come up with is "I don't remember."
Untrue. She has stated many times that the stories of her fighting heroically just before her capture are completely unfounded. She is spreading the truth of her story in the face of lies and propaganda.
Originally posted by OnyxCougar
The one, presumably, that says she was raped. When all the doctors say she wasn't.
The only doctors saying she wasn't raped are
Iraqi doctors, who also admit that they weren't looking for evidence of rape.
I wonder, what must a person do before they may have the honor of being considered a hero to you? Save a life? She was there in Iraq trying to save many lives. Tell the truth? She does so where most people would lack the moral conviction to do the same.
NOTE: I was still typing this when dave posted his stuff.
Originally posted by OnyxCougar
To be honest, I don't give a rats' ass if she was raped or if she wasn't
Wow. That speaks volumes.
Originally posted by hot_pastrami
Wow. That speaks volumes.
[COLOR=indigo]Bad things happen to good people. It's a sad, sorry fact of life. Lots of women have been raped through history. Whether she was raped or not has no bearing on her heroism.[/COLOR]
Originally posted by OnyxCougar
Bad things happen to good people. It's a sad, sorry fact of life. Lots of women have been raped through history. Whether she was raped or not has no bearing on her heroism.
And if you'd said something like "whether she was raped has no relevance to whether or not she is a hero," it wouldn't bother me. But to say that you don't give a rat's ass whether it happened to her... that is
cold.Originally posted by OnyxCougar
Bad things happen to good people. It's a sad, sorry fact of life. Lots of women have been raped through history. Whether she was raped or not has no bearing on her heroism.
...besides, I don't think anybody here suggested that being raped has anything to do with her heroism. The heroic part is that she has medical evidence that says she
was raped, but instead of trying to use that evidence for personal gain, she is honestly saying that she remembers no such thing.
Originally posted by hot_pastrami
The only doctors saying she wasn't raped are Iraqi doctors, who also admit that they weren't looking for evidence of rape.
[color=indigo] True.[/color]
I wonder, what must a person do before they may have the honor of being considered a hero to you? Save a life? She was there in Iraq trying to save many lives. Tell the truth? She does so where most people would lack the moral conviction to do the same.
[color=indigo]
I don't have a set of predefined notions what a hero is. It's not like I go down a checklist. But yes, to me, a person that saves lives or even one life is a hero of sorts. Telling the truth does not make you a hero. It makes you honest.
I'm not saying she's not a good person. All I'm saying is to me she is not a hero. Again, I don't know if she's a greedy american or not. But to me, she's not a hero. Why is that so hard to accept? I'm not saying in ANY way that I am better than her. I'm not saying she's not brave. I'm not saying she's not courageous. I'm not calling her a liar. I'm not saying she fronting. From what I have seen with my own eyes, the stories that I have read (and apperantly it's not all of them), I'm not convinced she is not profiting from her misfortune. And by the way, that's not to make a judgement on whether that is right or wrong. Simply my opinion at this time. Again, I'm open to changing my ideas on this. It's just an opinion that with
REASONABLE
arguement (and less personal attacks) is open to change. Open mind, people. Keep an open mind.
[/color]
Originally posted by hot_pastrami
And if you'd said something like "whether she was raped has no relevance to whether or not she is a hero," it wouldn't bother me. But to say that you don't give a rat's ass whether it happened to her... that is cold.
[color=indigo]Dave has a way of irritating me with personal attacks. And he does it on purpose because he knows I fall for it every time.
Yes. It's cold to say I don't give a rat's ass. It really is. And I'd hand her a tissue at a group therapy session. No woman should ever be brutalized that way. In a general sense, yeah, I feel bad for her. Like I feel bad about all of Henry the eighth's wives that were killed for no damn reason. It sucks. But I don't lose sleep over it. [/color]
Originally posted by OnyxCougar
To be honest, I don't give a rats' ass if she was raped or if she wasn't, in fact I hope she can't remember it if she was, because it's NOT FUN.
I didn't say she was a liar. Not once. And you know what? It doesn't matter if she's a liar or not. She's a hero to America whether she was raped or not, whather she remembers or not, or whether she disputes it or not. The media has decided she is, so she is.
I agree completely. And so this thread missing the point. Lynch is simply the central topic of something far larger. They lied. The same top political leaders who lied about so many other things also lied about Jessica Lynch. That is the most important point.
Who did the lying? Why did they lie? They knew they were lying because they did not have the facts to say what they did. That is the Jessica Lynch story. They lied.
They disparaged Jessica Lynch. Made her into something she was not. I hope she makes a $million. She deserves it because of what top government officials did. But here is the real story. We are not blaming anyone who did the lying. They are not being punished as demonstrated by approve poll numbers. IOW we too are conspriing to protect the guilty by worrying only about the symptom - Jessica Lynch. Her character is irrelevant. What happened to her is only important as far as who in top government intentionally lied.
The real story about Jessic Lynch is the lying that has become standard procedure among the highest officials. Whether she meets someone credited with her rescue is silly. What a liar would have us argue about so that we forget one thing - they lied. Stick to important facts - not a human interest story with is broadcast for trivial minds. Important fact is they lied. Only the lies are important.
Originally posted by OnyxCougar
Open mind, people. Keep an open mind.
Yours being a stunning example. No, really. I was being serious. Really. No, I'm not kidding. No, I'm not being sarcastic. Yes. Just like yours. Honestly. For real. I swear. Yes, I'm telling the truth. No, I'm smiling because I thought of something funny. It was a duck. Quacking. Yes. But seriously. Yours is a stunning example of said trait. Really.
[COLOR=indigo]tw agrees with me completely?
*sigh* Now I know I need to stop posting....
*wink at tw* just kidding, sweetie.
[/COLOR]
Originally posted by OnyxCougar
Telling the truth does not make you a hero. It makes you honest.
True. I'm a very honest person myself (honest!). It makes me
very uncomfortable to lie, so I don't do it. And that does not make me a hero.
But frankly, most "honest" people are probably too weak to be as honest as she has been under the circumstances. If she weren't so vocal about getting the truth out there, the world would still believe that she was captured in a heroic, blazing firefight, defending her fellow soldiers to her last bullet. Enough to make her a hero by itself? Perhaps not... but a moving display of honesty it is.
I like to think that I'd be strong enough to be so honest under such cirmstances, I certainly hope so... but no one can
really know until they are in the moment.
Originally posted by OnyxCougar
I'm not calling her a liar. I'm not saying she fronting.
But, you
did imply that she was a liar,
and fronting:
Originally posted by OnyxCougar
She's busy with her new book. The one, presumably, that says she was raped. When all the doctors say she wasn't.
Originally posted by OnyxCougar
Again, I'm open to changing my ideas on this. It's just an opinion that with
REASONABLE
arguement (and less personal attacks) is open to change. Open mind, people. Keep an open mind.
And with that, you patronizingly imply that all of the statements contrary to yours are unreasonable. Open mind indeed.
Originally posted by dave
Yours being a stunning example. No, really. I was being serious. Really. No, I'm not kidding. No, I'm not being sarcastic. Yes. Just like yours. Honestly. For real. I swear. Yes, I'm telling the truth. No, I'm smiling because I thought of something funny. It was a duck. Quacking. Yes. But seriously. Yours is a stunning example of said trait. Really.
[COLOR=indigo]*blink* OK. :confused:[/COLOR]
I've stated it many times before, but apparently certain people have reading comprehension issues (don't they hold you back for that?). So here goes, one more time...
I'm not busting a vessel. I never get un-calm. The only time my heartrate rises when reading the Cellar is when I start laughing at the utterly ridiculous things that roll off the fingers of some of our regulars. You're projecting your own excitement onto me. You assume that since you get furious and incensed over these things, I must too. I've got many people that frequent this place that are around me when I write, and they can tell you, this never happens.
What I <b>am</b> guilty of, however, is calling out an imbecile when I see one trying to act smart.
[COLOR=indigo]True. I can't see you at your computer, so I don't know that you aren't frothing at the mouth when you spew personal insults.
My frustration at you making personal insults when it has nothing to do with the topic at hand reflect in what I post.
So forgive me if I project my opinion of your state of mind on your posts.
I wouldn't know about what consistutes holding someone back, as I've never been held back. What does that have to do with Jessica Lynch?
And I have seen you call out imbeciles before. But you don't have to get on a personal level with a person that disagrees with you, Dave.
And Alan, when I said reasonable, I meant not personally insulting, I didn't mean to imply that everyone else's arguments were unreasonable. However, I am full out saying that anything with a personal insult *is* unreasonable.
[/COLOR]
Originally posted by OnyxCougar
But you don't have to get on a personal level with a person that disagrees with you, Dave.
Read signature.
I've got a friend in the Gulf, and my niece is probably going to get redirected there. But dave, you didn't hear any of that. You heard me say Pvt. Lynch might be lying. Hell, I don't know; I've been trying to ignore it, but this story gets short-stroked all over. You are a really sensitive guy, and I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings.
"Molestor" is spelled "molester".
I agree with tw on this one.
Originally posted by Uryoces
I've got a friend in the Gulf, and my niece is probably going to get redirected there. But dave, you didn't hear any of that.
No, I simply didn't take issue with any of that. I made it extremely clear that it was my belief that you had no evidence to support an accusation of lying, and so therefore there was no reason for you to say she wasn't beyond lying except for your own suspicions.
You haven't offended me; I just think your comment is typical of a fucking retard. I don't think you to be a fucking retard, but you're providing me with more and more evidence - or maybe you folks are just incapable of reading. Regardless, when I finally do think you're a fucking retard, it will be because I have read and witnessed a number of pieces of evidence which have led me to the conclusion - not just because I suspect you might be one.
Originally posted by Griff
Not a hero, not greedy, just a victim trying to get something out of a very raw deal.
Bingo! Give that man a cigar. Victim and hero seem to be interchangable these days and they shouldn't be.:cool:
Quote Hot Pastrami
1) I wouldn't say that he ultimately saved her life... the article says "The Iraqi lawyer, whose information helped lead U.S. soldiers to rescue the captured Wirt County resident..." (emphasis mine). So, he told somebody that she was there, and that information helped lead US soldiers to her. Helpful? Yes. Ultimately
There is more to his actions than that. Walking 20 odd miles through the American lines at night to tell us where she was. Walking back to the hospital to draw diagrams of the layout, where she was and the guard setup. Getting that info back to us. Getting a Doctor friend to interceed when they scheduled her for surgery that would coinside with the rescue. Risking the lives of his whole family if he'd been found out. I think he was proactive enough to be called a legitimate hero. The Bath's had already taken his car and shot up his house for something minor.
Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
There is more to his actions than that.
Well, I didn't know all of that stuff. I was basing my comments on the information contained in the pasted article. So I was underinformed on one point, but of course it wasn't the main point of my comment.
Damn cool of him to do all that, though. Hero, yes.
Originally posted by hot_pastrami
Well, I didn't know all of that stuff. I was basing my comments on the information contained in the pasted article. So I was underinformed on one point, but of course it wasn't the main point of my comment.
Damn cool of him to do all that, though. Hero, yes.
In Lynch's interview tonight, the Iraqi doctors said the troops could have just walked in the door and picked her up - the hostile forces had already evacuated the place days before. Of course U.S. military wouldn't have any idea about this; analysts/critics, however, insinuated that the rescue was staged for dramatic effect.
Sounds like the Iraqi informant was the key player here - his story (available on the newswires) is pretty cool.
Originally posted by dave
No, I simply didn't take issue with any of that. I made it extremely clear that it was my belief that you had no evidence to support an accusation of lying, and so therefore there was no reason for you to say she wasn't beyond lying except for your own suspicions.
You haven't offended me; I just think your comment is typical of a fucking retard. I don't think you to be a fucking retard, but you're providing me with more and more evidence - or maybe you folks are just incapable of reading. Regardless, when I finally do think you're a fucking retard, it will be because I have read and witnessed a number of pieces of evidence which have led me to the conclusion - not just because I suspect you might be one.
You're acting like a complete ass, dave. I'm puzzled by your reaction to my opinion. The Jessica Lynch thing is something I've been trying to avoid. Like I said before, I try and avoid any news, so my comments are pretty much my opinion, and they may or may not be wrong. This is really a hot button issue for you, one you can't handle in a rational manner. Hell, everyone is going nuts over this.
Because you say it does not make it so. What have I said which was irrational? My opinions have been based on evidence, where yours are based on suspicion - and I am the one called irrational. I have taken the time to explain my opinions, where you have stated them with no qualifications or backing whatsoever - and I am the one that is irrational. I have stated plainly that I do not believe she fits either of the extremes and I am the one that is called irrational. I take your hurtful and baseless statement (of her perhaps lying) and turn it into another hurtful and baseless statement (of you perhaps being a child molester), and it apparently doesn't occur to you that, "gee, he's doing the same thing I was doing to make a point to me that it's not cool" - and your word for me is "irrational". Yes, you sure do make a lot of sense.
Jessica Lynch is not a hot button issue; I react the same to many things, large and small. The "hot button" issue for me is fucking retards posting away without taking the time to <b>think</b> about what they are saying. That is why I react strongly. My words may sting, but I have at least <b>thought</b> about them. I can at least support them. That's more than a few of the people involved in this discussion can say.
And finally, I always act like a complete ass, Uryoces - when others are acting like fucking retards. I only fire with the ammunition I'm given. People like OnyxCougar and LUVBUGZ and now you, apparently, give me plenty of ammunition. If you don't want me to act like a complete ass, remove my reasons for doing so - post thought-out and reasoned comments.
Just think of it this way OnyxCouger, not everyone is going to agree with you no matter waht you say. Don't get so worked up over one person(this part is to EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
After watching the report last night, I have a question.
After the hummer crashed, at least two if not three of the occupants were taken to the hospital: Jessica, her friend (the native American female) and, maybe, one other.
Jessica's friend passed away some days before the rescue.
When the troops stormed the hospital to rescue Jessica, there was no word of also rescuing her friend. So, my question is: how did the troops know that Jessica was the only one left alive?
It has been established that the troops were tipped off as to her whereabouts. Fine, makes sense. It is also asserted by the military that the reason for the raid (as opposed to taking the elevator up) was a fear of the Fedeyeen that were based in the basement. Whoever tipped them about Jessica surely also tipped them about the fact the Fedeyeen had "left the building" and no longer posed a counterstrike threat.
So, given all that, why was there no discussion of rescuing the other two (or at least one) soldiers? Did the troops simply accept the word of the informant about Jessica being the only one left alive but disbelieve the informant about the Fedeyeen having evacuated? If they didn't believe the informant about the Fedeyeen having left, then why did they assume that the other soldiers in the hospital were dead and not being held and interrogated?
The story last night never even acknowledged that the rescue had any goal other than Jessica Lynch (..."the soldiers kept screaming: 'Where's Jessica? Where's Jessica'").
Something is fishy about all that. If I had to draw a conclusion I would guess that the rescue troops knew exactly what the hell was going on and staged the entire rescue knowing full well that Jessica was the only one left alive and that there was a ZERO chance of meeting resistance.
Just one idiot's opinion, tho.
Your assumption is based on the following flawed logic:
Originally posted by Beestie
Whoever tipped them about Jessica surely also tipped them about the fact the Fedeyeen had "left the building" and no longer posed a counterstrike threat.
There is no way to be sure that the informant knew this. We know who the informant was, and he's spoken to the media, and what he's basically said is "I knew where she was, and I decided that I would help get her out." He might not have had any clue that the Fedayeen had left the hospital. He might have. Who knows? But we can't say he "surely also tipped them" about that.
It was known that Lori Piestewa (the indian soldier) was dead. I don't remember exactly how, but they had that intelligence beforehand. If I recall correctly, they evacuated bodies that night as well, so one could probably safely assume that the rescue mission did indeed have other goals - the retrieval of all Americans, alive or dead. (Remember - U.S. military creed is "Leave no [wo]man behind.") So even if they didn't know she was dead, they found out pretty quickly.
Also remember that the Iraqi informant drew up maps of where the guards were stationed, so I would imagine it's quite likely that the forces conducting the raid did actually believe that they would meet resistance.
Your assumption is based on the following flawed logic:
That's what I get for trying to understand something by watching Diane Sawyer talk about it. :confused:
:)
Well, otherwise you were very reasonable, but I just don't think we can make that assumption based upon the data given. It may or may not be true, but we really can't know. You know?
Wowww! So much hype and emotion over something so irrelevant. So much emotion that I am not even sure what the argument is about.
Who cares if Jessica lied. It does not matter what the military knew when a masssive assualt force was sent in. Does it really matter whether the lawyer really talked to Jessica (although he is a lawyer meaning lies come naturally)? Does it matter that Jessica never saw him? There is only one fact that is indeed important. The bottom line. What is clearly not in dispute. And that is become situation normal over these past few years.
Top government official lied about Jessica - repeatedly. And when they knew beyond a doubt that they had been lying, then they made no effort to correct their lies. It was not a mistake. They intentionally knew they had no facts to make those claims. They lied. And they lied again.
Jessica is a victim of our government that sees nothing wrong with lying about people - or nations. She is honest. She did not fire any weapon. She did nothing heroic as lying government officials even in the White House would have you believe. She just tried to survive. Period. Which means they lied.
That means the people we must trust most, instead, outrightly lied, boldfaced and repeatedly, to us. They could not even be honest about Jessica Lynch - becausing lying is that normal. We have not seen White House residents lie this much since Richard Nixon. That is the story about Jessica Lynch. Our government intentionally and repeatedly lies - which is why Jessica now has celebrity status.
Was there not another Jessica who became a celebrity because another persons of trust - Rev Jim Baker - also lied as prolifically?
I didn't watch the show you're talking about but I would assume from your comments the it was "all" about Jessica.
The lawyer that tipped us and drew the maps, did tell them the Fedeyeen had left but because of the time lag between his last report and the actual mission, things could have changed so they were being cautious.
The lawyers wife was a nurse at the hospital and I think (but not sure) she was the one that knew where the dead were buried on the hospital grounds.
They did a thorough search of the facility, recovered the bodies and interogated everyone before they left the hospital. Of course this was all after Ms Lynch was moved.
The time lag thing also, as I mentioned in my previous post, was why the lawyer had to get a doctor friend to delay the surgery scheduled for Ms Lynch so she wasn't in surgery when the troops arrived.
All that said, I had the feeling at the time and haven't seen anything to change my mind, that the Army knew a great PR story when it fell in their laps. But the fact that they played it to the max for PR, doesn't diminish the bravery and hard work of all involved.
The line between heros and victims is surely at it's most nebulous on the battlefield.