Wanted: A Gravedigger for NASA?

Now the Space Station has problems - that top management is ignoring?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3215-2003Oct22.html

NASA's decision to launch a fresh two-man crew to the International Space Station last weekend came over the strenuous objections of mid-level scientists and physicians who warned that deteriorating medical equipment and air and water monitoring devices aboard the orbiting laboratory posed increasing safety risks for the crew, according to space agency documents and interviews.

Two officials responsible for health and environmental conditions on the space station refused to approve the launch of the new crew, instead signing a dissent that warned about "the continued degradation" of the environmental monitoring and health maintenance systems and exercise equipment vital to the astronauts' well-being. ...

NASA's decision to launch a fresh two-man crew to the International Space Station last weekend came over the strenuous objections of mid-level scientists and physicians who warned that deteriorating medical equipment and air and water monitoring devices aboard the orbiting laboratory posed increasing safety risks for the crew, according to space agency documents and interviews.

The problems with monitoring environmental conditions aboard the space station have festered for more than a year, [even before Columbia] ... Space station astronauts have shown such symptoms as headaches, dizziness and "an inability to think clearly," ... The onboard sensors designed to provide real-time analysis of the air, water and radiation levels have been broken for months, which has made it impossible to determine at any given time whether there is a buildup of trace amounts of dangerous chemical compounds that could sicken the astronauts, or worse.

It really concerns me, the real time instrumentation for the parameters they're talking about, don't work. And haven't worked for a long time. Top management is afraid of losing momentum and public interest. And the Astronauts like most fighter pilots, are like a dog you just asked if they want to go for a walk.

We need a follow up to the Apollo program. The space shuttle is very pretty, and I had high hopes for it, but we need to move on. We need to get our act together and fix the space station to use it as a way point and not a destination. Southern polar region of the moon, anyone?

We need to put people with vision in charge of Nasa, get dreamers and tinkerers in there. Scaled Composites and Armadillo Aerospace come to mind. We need to get rid of those damned MBA's that are following the Peter Principle to the hilt.

Originally posted by Uryoces
We need a follow up to the Apollo program. The space shuttle is very pretty, and I had high hopes for it, but we need to move on. We need to get our act together and fix the space station to use it as a way point and not a destination. Southern polar region of the moon, anyone?

Why? What is the strategic objective? To put men on the southern moon only for the glory of man? That is the reasoning that got us into this Space Station fiasco in the first place. And the need to maintain a schedule on that fiasco resulted in rationalization best summarized as the Columbia disaster.

Doing things without good logic reasons is simply wrong. Originally it was either the Space Station or the Super Collider. Now the Space Station does no science and the quantum physics world will soon be leaving the US to continue their research where necessary equipment will be available - Cern. Why then continue so much money on many space flight that has little logical purpose?

BTW, what is necessary to continue Moore's Law. A Space Station or quantum physics? What made gigahertz disk drives possible? Quantum physics - not a rocket launch.

South Polar Atiken basin has a large concentration of water ice in the perpetual shadows there. The Clementine mission found it. Why? Moving out into the solar system. I could just as easily say that the supercollider is a waste of money in that it's pure estoeric science with no application whatsoever. A lunar colony is a fairly pragmatic thing; we'd be moving out into the solar system, not placing all of our eggs in one basket.

The quantum physics drving new, experimental compouter technology would function just fine without the supercollider. I say we do more with the technology we have before we start to create quantum computational systems that will suck even more power out of overloaded grids.

Originally posted by Uryoces
Why? Moving out into the solar system. I could just as easily say that the supercollider is a waste of money in that it's pure estoeric science with no application whatsoever.

Yes one could say that. But there is a difference between science and science fiction. Putting a few men on the moon struggling to survive while desperately mining for water is suppose to advance mankind? We are spending billions to keeping two men uselessly in space, only above the earth, doing nothing to advance mankind. Now a few starving earthlings on the southern pole of the moon would advance mankind? Only if using junk science reasoning.

We know superconductivity has massive potential for our future. Where is the knowledge to make superconductivity work? Quantum physics - not on a moon's southern pole. We know that newer materials and better production methods are necessary to advance mankind. Where is the knowledge? In learning how these materials are formed and better ways to make them. Quantum physics. Where is the future of memory, logic, and data storage. Already in science developed in quantum physics - without spending billions on two men in space. What makes our fundamental energy types work and interrelate. Wisdom from a man in the moon - or quantum physics? Where is the future in genetic research - the heart of future medical breakthroughs? In technology that is found in quantum physics - not the least of which is new computer components found in the principles of quantum physics. Where are the concepts of alternative energy sources such as fuel cells? We break up the atom into its quantum physic parts, each taking a different path. Its called quantum physics.

IOW quantum physics is involved with or fundamental to many technologies that appear to be our future. How do we get propulsion systems and newer lighter materials so that two men can beg for water on the moon's southern pole? Breakthoughs that probably are found in new technologies - based fully or in part on .... quantum physics.

Most of the breakthrough technologies that made latest computers possible were from the world of advanced physics - because the US has most of the worlds advance quantum physics tools. Quantum physics research are why transistor not are only single digit atoms thick. However a large sucking sound will begin soon as those world leading minds go where basic research is appreciated. Same place that the 'www' was created. Cern. Why? Too many Americans even in the Cellar cannot tell the difference between spending $billions to put two beggars on the moon's southern pole - verses where many new breakthrough technologies come from. Many of our previous advances were pioneered in work from predecessors of the super collider. But now a super collider does nothing? Only where people don't read science.

When science fiction is rationalization for big dollar science, then we have the ISS - which costs $billions - and produces nothing - no science. Did we not yet learn the lesson of science fiction to justify junk science?

When less money is spent, because it is what anti-junk scientists want, then we would have the super collider. But this assumes one has enough knowledge of science and the world to see the difference. A man scratching for water on the moon would be just another ISS or a liberation of people who don't want to be liberated. It does not advance mankind and does not even promise a single major breakthrough. Scratching for water on the moon is not even proposed for a single scientific reason. What is left? Junk science? Romance? Wild speculation? None of these justify a man on the moon - yet.

Putting a human on the moon's southern pole is advocated only for romantic reasons - the irrational exuberance that created our ISS and Iraq messes. A super collider is a critical tool so important to advance mankind and to advance many of America's money making industries. Beggars on the moon is how politicians get more bribes in exchange for junk science hype - and no science. And yet some cannot see the difference between nonsense (ISS or drilling for moon water) verses where science is really moving. Advocating well drillers on the moon so obviously does nothing to advance mankind - but is so romantic to science fiction advocates.

The rub, then, is that since it's public money, you're not allowed to use NASA-type money on anything that doesn't really strike the public's imagination.

I agree, in that I don't see the purpose of sending people to the moon or mars. But saying that the space program produces nothing is a little much. Tremendous strides in science and medicine have come from the space program. Of course they might have been developed at lower cost than with NASA's shotgun method of research.
After we spend billions of taxpayer dollars on the super collider, is the resultant technology the property of the Government? I'd assume it would be passed on to "private industry" like in the past. Then of course "private industry" would pass it along to their "global partners" just like Boeing did to China with our space technology. Now China has put a man in space, thanks to the Soviets and the US taxpayer.

Originally posted by Undertoad
The rub, then, is that since it's public money, you're not allowed to use NASA-type money on anything that doesn't really strike the public's imagination.

Like planes with morphing wings - another promising advancement in aircraft development. Or a new wing that reduced the sonic boom (and reduces fuel consumption) by 40%. Of the many spectacular planetary missions that even provides incite into how our weather works.

NASA's best work is done on almost no budget - virutally all of the productive stuff in less than 1%. Big budgets are where romantics promote nonsense such as a manned space station that sitll has no purpose. But then we graduate less technically trained people every year. How can the nation apprieciate what is really breakthrough science. No wonder so few see the critical importance of quantum physics to this nation's next technology wave. Too many only believed in bigger battleships (instead of aircraft carriers) because battleships were the big hype 20 years previous. Myopics would never appreciate a breakthrough technology until it was no longer revolutionary.

Much of the technologies in today's computers were based in that government research. Anyone doing advanced particle or plasma research once came to America where the big research tools were built (ie Stanford Linear Accelerator). Next year, there will be a mass migration to Cern. America now believes in investing in presidents, keeping human bodies doing plant maintenance in space, and in liberating countries that don't want to be liberated.

I believe I have been insulted, numerous times. Yea, verily I bleed.

My comment was to suggest that the shuttle's time is past. It's very pretty, but expensive in cost and lives. I remember following it's progress in grade school, and being very excited about the prospects of space travel. Dreams die hard. The Soviets have been using a tried and true 40-year old technology called Soyuz. At one time we had a program that was similar. With our adavances in materials and control systems today, we should be able to come up with something similar that makes more sense.

This makes the idea of a moonbase a realistic prospect. I won't go into how many advances came from the space program. Pure science needs to be done, and the Supercolider is important. However you weren't interested in finding out what I thought of it. Your Supercollider probably won't get done unless it's seen as a pork-barrel project that some state can reap the benefits from, and your billions of dollars wasted on it are somehow cleaner, and I won't hear you complain. Texas was the last state that would have had it constructed; Washington was beat out by superior politics I guess. How is creating a big magnetic ring in the dirt more important that two men scratching in the dirt on the moon? Will it help us create better fuel cells? Nope. The space program, and a company in Vancouver B.C. called Ballard Power Systems is seeing to that.

Planes with morphing wings? That seems to require advances in materials. Now, I wonder, which program is involved in materials like that? Will accelerating protons and antiprotons bring us any insight into this?

You're mixing your sciences together. The Supercollider won't tell us anything about superconductivity that can't be learned with out it. Indeed superconductivity is required for the larger accelerators, NOT the other way around.

All science exictes me, including the Supercollider, but you're not willing to find out, you jump to conclusions, and are ready to insult anyone that has a differing opinion.

You know the shuttle's external tank? It's a big shiny, aluminum tube.

Originally posted by Uryoces
How is creating a big magnetic ring in the dirt more important that two men scratching in the dirt on the moon? Will it help us create better fuel cells? Nope. The space program, and a company in Vancouver B.C. called Ballard Power Systems is seeing to that.

Planes with morphing wings? That seems to require advances in materials. Now, I wonder, which program is involved in materials like that? Will accelerating protons and antiprotons bring us any insight into this?

Uryoces really doesn't have insight into science. Ballard Power Systems is simply applying what had long since been learned by basic research so many decades previously.

Maybe I should step back and explain differences between basic research and application research. Bell Labs in its creative day was basic research. Application research was then conducted by Western Electric, et al to develop products based upon basic research. Classic science history - when basic and applied research is done simultaneously, then progress stops.

Ballard Power Systems is only application research. They are not doing the breakthrough research. They only made a major step forwared in fuel cell development (application research) AND are now being surpassed by other application research centers. None of this proves a super collider unnecessary.

Concepts of superconductivity apparently are not understood. We so little understand the inner workings of superconductivity that we cannot even predict what can and can not be a superconductor - and why. Major breakthroughs included the BCS theory that explained something called phonons (no not photons). But again, to understand how these forces work, we need data that only a super collider could have provided. Concepts including how strong forces, weak forces, etc all work, are interrelated, created, and controlled.

Again Uryoces confuses application science (application of known superconductors and their proven abilities) with basic research (learning how and why superconductivity works).

But this in his post I have not a clue. How will putting two men on the moon scratching for water make breakthroughs in fuel cell technology? What are they going to find - magic slippers? A geni?

Apparently Uryoces is using the myth that the space program resulted in numerous breakthrough technologies. In reality, the space program was only a consumer of products that were already marketed or developed for other purposes. If Uryoces was right, then the 8080 microprocessor was a direct result of the space program. In fact that propaganda was promoted in about 1970. Now for reality. The 8080 microprocessor was an existing technology also used by the space program and by other big budget programs such as the Minuteman missile program. What created the 8080 and it predecessors? Trying to make a calculator. There it is. Calculator development - not a space program - should be encouraged because it results in major technological breakthroughs.

If Uryoces was correct, then disk drives also were created by the Minuteman missile program. After all, critical to the guidance system was a big disk drive in the top of that nuclear missile. Therefore the cold war is responsible for creating disk drives.

Reality - a space program will not result in better fuel cells.

We cannot even get a launch every few months but a few hundred miles to the top of earth's atmosphere. How does Uryoces expect that we supply two men on the moon every month? We don't even have enough rocket power to maintain the ISS? Where is the massive extra power coming from to go to the moon every month - so that two men can scratch the moon for water? Even Soyus cannot supply enough material to keep two men alive in the ISS? Where is this rocket large enough to supply two men every month on the moon?

Uryoces - you were only insulted if you are emotionally attached to your conclusions. I read not one personal attack on you - not even close. Not a single reason to discuss blood. But the word blood says to me you are emotionally attached to your conclusions when you should be logically attached. I read a severe shortage of basic science knowledge in your posts. First learn how basic particle research applies to previously posted science breakthroughs. You have confused application research with sub-atomic particle research. You don't appreciate how important particle research has becoming even to new materials and technology tools. Even that head on the gigahertz disk drive comes from work in particle physics - things learned from smashing sub-atomic particles together.

Tell me about strained silicon - a new concept in IC development. Were these concepts developed from men trying to stay alive in the ISS - or from fundamental science learned from plasma and sub-atomic particle physics?

If we are to produce better fuel cells, the technology will come only from particle physics. Why platinum and paladium work as they do - sub-atomic physics. Things learn from smashing atoms into pieces. Creating a big magnetic ring in the dirt IS that important even to fuel cell research - as to superconductivity - as to faster computers (and I am not talking about quantum computers) - as to greater data storage - as to new materials that are faster, stronger, lighter, etc. No space station or men romantically scratching for moon water is going to discover those breakthrough technologies.

The ISS has no scientific reason to exist. It has no monetary reason to exist. It has become a big white elephant because it has lost its only reason to exist. And its existance comes at the expense of mankind advancements in basic research. Big bucks does not mean big results. But spending big bucks only because of romantic ideas can starve mankind of fundamental science breakthroughs. Without understanding even the difference between basic research and application research, then we, the public, permit enemies of science to control science. We needed that super collider. It got killed by the ISS whose price has since skyrocketed by a factor of 10. And I now suspect super collider also got killed because the common man did not have a clue as to it's importance.

And I now suspect super collider also got killed because the common man did not have a clue as to it's importance.

But you have decided the common man should pay for it?:confused:

[strike]Uryoces[/strike] tw really doesn't have insight into science.

Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
But you have decided the common man should pay for it?

The common man was going to pay for something. It was either $8billion for the super collider or $8billion for ISS. The super collider had scientific value. ISS did not. But ISS was an excellent platform to build a common trust between the US and Russia while teaching how the other thinks. American's approach scientific solutions is quite different from how the Russian do it. And getting both side to have their little people in direct communication and cooperation was right important to building trust.

Unfortunately, no one bothered to notice that the ISS budget of only $8billion was but a joke. Currently ISS has cost somewhere around $80billion - and still it will do no science. The basic super collider budget would have cost about what was budgeted - as demonstrated by other smaller and existing particle accelerators. AND the super collider would have been addressing serious fundamental science questions that currently are not answered by existing research tools.

So which do you want to pay for? $80+billion for the ISS that currently serves no purpose, or the super collider that would truly advance science and keep American in the forefront of breakthrough technologies? The latter costing about 1/10th the cost for many times more rewards.

Source

[COLOR=indigo]The ISS is NOT a useless bit of money gobbling metal in orbit.

Yes, it's overpriced.

Yes, it's expensive to maintain.

Yes, a superconductor is essential to quantum physics. But quantum physics is NOT the be-all, end-all of science.

Some things the ISS is helpful for (emphasis mine):

Cells associate in complex, three-dimensional groupings—called lines—to form living tissue. When researchers try to replicate this natural growth in ground-based laboratories, they find that the cultivated cells form flat, thin specimens. Since these specimens do not accurately represent cell behavior, they are of limited use to researchers. On the other hand, cells grown in the microgravity of low Earth orbit grow three-dimensionally, more closely resembling cells found in living bodies. CBOSS provides the first on-Station hardware dedicated to cultivating cells: a Biotechnology Specimen Temperature Controller (BSTC), a Biotechnology Refrigerator (BTR), a Gas Supply Module (GSM), and two Biotechnology Cell Science Stowage (BCSS). BSTC's chamber will act as a non-rotating bioreactor, where the cells will be cultivated. The experiments grown during this mission will be used for the study of human diseases, such as cancer.

In dilute magnetorheological (MR) suspensions the dipolar particles aggregate to form long chains. More concentrated systems exhibit a rapid liquid to solid transition as chains cross-link, and are capable of supporting stresses perpendicular to the applied field. These unique properties have many possible technological applications, especially for actuator-type devices. While several studies have aimed to describe the rheological properties of MR fluids on a microstructural basis, we seek to investigate the fundamental particle motions of such systems in an effort to relate dynamics to changes in structure and interactions. Additionally, the ability to experimentally probe colloidal suspensions interacting through tunable anisotropic potentials is of fundamental interest.

Space is a punishing environment. Extreme temperatures, radiation, vacuum, and orbiting debris can damage and destroy building materials and hardware. MISSE will test the durability of hundreds of samples—ranging from lubricants and paints to solar cell technologies—by exposing them to the potential hazards of space. By flying these samples in one of nature's harshest environments, researchers will not only discover the strength and durability of the samples, but will also gain insight that will help them design and manufacture new materials that will last longer on Earth, in space, and on other planets.

Your posts, while mostly logical, are written with tunnel vision. To YOU, the superconductor was the better choice.

Personally, if it came down to a superconductor that already exists (or is already being built in Europe) or creating a living environment in space... I'll pick the space station. It can help us learn how to live long term in that environment, so that one day we can build spaceships at the ISS, opening a whole new realm of possibility of space travel.

There were already SC's underway, why recreate the wheel? So the US can say nyah nyah, we have our own? Let the scientists go to CERN. They'll still report the science.

The Reasearch Triangle, in Raleigh/Durham, NC has over 13% of the Top Scientists in the United States, and has a population with doctoral degrees of over 35%.

I don't think all of them are running off to CERN.

I'd rather cure cancer.

[/COLOR]

It can help us learn how to live long term in that environment, so that one day we can build spaceships at the ISS, opening a whole new realm of possibility of space travel.

Oh Boy! Cigarette butts and Kodak wrappers all the way to mars.:p :D

"Concepts of superconductivity apparently are not understood. We so little understand the inner workings of superconductivity that we cannot even predict what can and can not be a superconductor - and why. Major breakthroughs included the BCS theory that explained something called phonons (no not photons). But again, to understand how these forces work, we need data that only a supercollider could have provided. Concepts including how strong forces, weak forces, etc all work, are interrelated, created, and controlled."

A flicker of understanding from the original author. The original researchers into superconductivity joked that they were more like witches mixing potions; a little yttrium, a little cobalt, and a dash of copper oxide, and bake at 350 degrees until the toothpick comes out clean, etc. The concepts of the strong, weak, electromagnetic, and gravitic primary forces were conceived long before Fermi even thought of creating an atomic pile in a racquetball court. Supercolliders HAVE DONE NOTHING but to verify theories concerning basic, supermassive particles.

"Tell me about strained silicon - a new concept in IC development. Were these concepts developed from men trying to stay alive in the ISS - or from fundamental science learned from plasma and sub-atomic particle physics?"
"as to greater data storage - as to new materials that are faster, stronger, lighter, etc. "

Strained silicon, germanium, "doping" these and other elements to perform new unexpected tasks, and it's cousins from the field of molecular beam epitaxy have nothing to do with rings of magnets buried in the ground. Current plasma research was all that was required.

It seems as if the original author of this thread is making artificial distinctions between pure research and application research. Indeed, it can be said that any research into William Robert Grove's, 1838 discovery of the fuel cell and its principles is application research. It is a sometimes unfortunate fact that little separates pure and application research today; funders of such projects do expect some applications to be derived from the pure research aspects. However, anyone that does not have a favorable view on the so called "MBA" management style would have had insight enough to know this.

It can be noted with some irony that W. Grove's discovery had to wait 'til nearly the end of the 19th century for electrical research to reach a measure of fruition before the principles could be properly explored!

The morphing wings the author describe from his recent readings of Popular Mechanics is simply a rehash of the MAW, or Mission Adaptive Wing technology demonstrated on -- of all airplanes -- an F-111 bomber. The original author will no doubt delight in telling us of the cost overruns and miscalculations of McNamarra and his "whiz kids" over the F-111. Differing wing structures and their effects on sub, trans, and supersonic regimes can best be demonstrated by NASA's HiMat project. Boeing, and I am most certain Aribus, are working on differing airframe shapes to gain the best advantage of fuel savings and speed. My state is vying to be the primary assembler of Boeing's 7E7. To recap the concepts I've covered in this paragraph: The morphing wings described rely on application research, pure research by the "wrong" agency, and application research by a corporation. There are many MBA's employed at Boeing, which is a bit of a problem for Washington I must add with some amusement and chagrin.

"Why platinum and paladium[sic] work as they do - sub-atomic physics." Statements such as this sound dangerously like the quackery that brought Mssrs. Fleischmann and Pons into the limelight with their claims of so called "Cold Fusion". Platinum and Palladium are simply used as catalysts in the reactions the original author speaks of. To imagine they mystically but temporarily crack atoms into quarks is ludicrous. Ironically, in order to do such a thing as the author suggests, a supercollider is required, and the equivalent energies utilized by the United States in one year in the span of a second.

"Apparently Uryoces is using the myth that the space program resulted in numerous breakthrough technologies. In reality, the space program was only a consumer of products that were already marketed or developed for other purposes. If Uryoces was right, then the 8080 microprocessor was a direct result of the space program. In fact that propaganda was promoted in about 1970. Now for reality. The 8080 microprocessor was an existing technology also used by the space program and by other big budget programs such as the Minuteman missile program. What created the 8080 and it predecessors? Trying to make a calculator. There it is. Calculator development - not a space program - should be encouraged because it results in major technological breakthroughs."

This statement is so bizarre and snide, I don't have any comment.

"Uryoces - you were only insulted if you are emotionally attached to your conclusions. I read not one personal attack on you - not even close. Not a single reason to discuss blood. But the word blood says to me you are emotionally attached to your conclusions when you should be logically attached."

See my above statement. The original author of the article apparently has no sense of subtlety and wit; at least in this forum.

The common man needs to understand that the supercolliders ONLY purpose for existence is to confirm theories concerning basic, supermassive particles. Nothing that the original author of the thread has spoken of requires the Supercollider, or indeed any subatomic research.

I must point out here that the term "common man" sounds somewhat dirty and unflattering, as if such a person needs to have someone else's will forced upon them to shed their "commonness", as if they needed to pay attention to their betters. I reject this line of extremist thinking to which the original author subscribes.

I note with more irony the author and I both agree that the Superconducting Supercollider would be a worthwhile project. There is one method that WILL get it built. The goal and the method is to engage a person's imagination in the possibilities. The picture of the earth rising above the lunar surface taken by the crew of Apollo 8 showed that the world is indeed one single place, no convenient borders drawn across it. The Apollo moon landings have inspired the India, and China to develop new technological applications. The pure research has already been done by the United States and the ESA, if not for pure reasons. :)

Humanity will move out in to the solar system, sooner or later. The start is to make a sensible space program run with enthusiastic people of vision. To come back to the space shuttle, it's a very pretty ship that really couldn't pay its way. Designing and building a reasonable space program will allow the ISS to fulfill it's promise as a gateway. If we are able to launch several Apollo-type missions for the cost of one shuttle flight, we can keep humanity is space and learn the lessons that are needed to create successful lunar and Martian bases. The original author assumes I mean to send two (why two?) people there immediately. This is a strange assumption, and one of which I never spoke.

All of this requires belief, however. The original author has demonstrated that cynicism is a preferred mode of thought, to which I say cynicism is a tool, not a way of life.

"Oh Boy! Cigarette butts and Kodak wrappers all the way to mars. ":p :D

Sigh. You may be right on the money there...

Originally posted by Uryoces
"Why platinum and paladium[sic] work as they do - sub-atomic physics." Statements such as this sound dangerously like the quackery that brought Mssrs. Fleischmann and Pons into the limelight with their claims of so called "Cold Fusion". Platinum and Palladium are simply used as catalysts in the reactions the original author speaks of. To imagine they mystically but temporarily crack atoms into quarks is ludicrous. Ironically, in order to do such a thing as the author suggests, a supercollider is required, and the equivalent energies utilized by the United States in one year in the span of a second.

Fuel cells do not break atoms into quarks. And cold fusion has nothing to do with the process. Either Uryoces insults me with sarcasm or he really does not understand the subatomic operation of fuel cells. Platinum breaks and separates atoms into Leptons and Baryons; not into quarks. How is this accomplished? Fundamental to the process are interactions of strong, weak, and electromagnetic forces. What is the super collider a research tool for? To understand these basic forces. What don't we understand? How these forces operate; forces that explain everything from semiconductors and superconductivity to advanced materials.

Learning how these basic forces work is necessary to understand superconductivity, materials for morphing wings, strained silicon and other semiconductors, and yes - even cold fusion (not understood and yet has been reproduced in only some labs such as one by the US Navy). And yet one would outrightly deny sub atomic research is relevenat to any of this? Same scientific naiviety that also did not understand the difference between basic and application research.

Space exploration and a Mars landing is most likely in our future. However a Mars landing is not a fundamental science breakthrough. A Mars landing is only possible only after other major technological breakthroughs - in basic research followed by successfuly application research. We have a long way to go. I don't expect to see a human on Mars in my lifetime. We just have too much fundamental science to discover to make that journey possible.

Scientific advancement that would provide new application technologies to both make a moon occupation possible and to build a society that can support such an achievement simply do not currently exist. We need more knowledge from the promising basic research tools - not the least of which are the fundamental tools of quantum physics.

I don't know where references to cold fusion, McNamara's F-111 and Popular Mechanics (the application research is being conducted on an F-18; not an F-111), confusion between basic research by Grove verse application research by Ballard Power, or a need for subtlety comes from. These are totally irrelevent to sub-atomic research and the potential resulting products from appliaction research inspired by that basic research.

The one tool that most promised a significant return on investment would have been the $8billion super collider. Instead we spent $80billion on ISS. And we will be spending much more as this boondoogle gets into more trouble. And yet one would propose we solve this problem by putting some men on the moon scratching for water?

Once we solve some major scientific problems, then we will have the knowledge and resources to put men on the moon. We are a long way from that historical acheivement.

It would help if we stopped electing MBAs to the presidency and lawyers into Congress. Advance research has no hope went confronted by science fiction romance of a man in the moon. However that is what we have which is why such important research tools such as the super collider are shelved. And while an astronaut and cosmonaut try to maintain a space station that has no scientific purpose.

ISS is glorious and romantic; basic research be damned. Men scratching for water on the moon currently would be just as silly.

Mission Adaptive Wing and the F-111.
www.dfrc.nasa.gov/DTRS/1992/PDF/H-1855.pdf http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Gallery/Photo/F-111AFTI/HTML/EC86-33385-002.html

These are merely the first two (active) links that can be found on Google if the subject "Mission Adaptive Wing" is entered. This basic research occurred as early as 1992. I've mentioned the F-111, and reminded the original author of said airframe's origins. This is the platform that was forced upon the Army, Navy, and Air force by McNamarra and his "whiz kids" at the Pentagon, to less than satisfactory results. The current research into so called "morphing wing" technology can trace it's roots back to this initial research. Now that I think a bit further on this, Orville and Wilbur wright's control mechanism for their Flyer was warping the wings, a primitive but effective morphing technology.

The author mentioned Bell labs, and the basic research that was performed there. Bell was expecting that some application would come from the researcher's efforts there. The transistor is simply an application of that research to replace the vacuum tube. For all the advances that the transistor brought, and as great as it is, it was simply an evolutionary step.

Currently, Fuel cells rely on a Proton Exchange Membrane (Ballard's specialty and focus), which is simply a way to borrow an electron from a hydrogen atom. The hydrogen atom, in it's standard isotopic form is composed of one electron (lepton) and one proton (composed of two up quarks and one down quark). This is the proton from the aforementioned PEM. Grove demonstrated his fuel cell in 1838, long before atomic theory was understood, or we had the ability to temporarily disassociate quarks.

"Platinum breaks and separates atoms into Leptons and Baryons; not into quarks. How is this accomplished? Fundamental to the process are interactions of strong, weak, and electromagnetic forces. What is the super collider a research tool for? To understand these basic forces."

This statement was the source of my confusion. I don't believe the original author of this thread understands what a supercollider does. However, I can explain it's processes in basic terms. Protons and antiprotons are accelerated to relativistic speeds in opposite directions in a massively large toroidal magnetic field. When they have reached a significant enough velocity of c, their paths are allowed to cross in a special chamber of superconducting sensors that map the resultant explosion of subatomic particles. Supermassive particles are created in an instant and then decay over microseconds into more basic particles. One scientist likened it to smashing two pocket watches together, and Big Ben appearing for a split second and then disappearing again.

The above statement by the original author is somewhat garbled. The separation of the hydrogen atom into it's constituent particles (and here I must concede that my usage of "sub atomic" refers to the most fundamental particles, quarks and to a lesser extent electrons) takes place in the realm of electromagnetism. The strong and the weak force have absolutely nothing to do with this process; they are responsible for holding the nucleus of an atom together (strong), and for the sometimes spontaneous conversion of protons to neutrons (called "radiation" simply enough) and indicative of the weak force. Once again, for the original author's benefit, I must point out that basic fundamentals of quantum theory existed long before linear or toroidal accelerators. I would further point out that due to the simple nature of the most common isotope of hydrogen, one proton and one electron, that it's impossible for the strong force to play any part in the interaction. i.e. There are no other nuclear particles (in this term "of the nucleus of the atom") to interact with!

"Either Uryoces insults me with sarcasm or he really does not understand the subatomic operation of fuel cells. ... And yet one would outrightly deny sub atomic research is relevenat to any of this? Same scientific naiviety that also did not understand the difference between basic and application research." I would point out to the original author of the thread that this statement bears out that at least I am not insulting anyone. I have been known on many different occasions to insult with frivolity, jollity, and in a non-sequitor manner, but never with sarcasm.

"I don't know where references to cold fusion ... or a need for subtlety comes from. " Hmm. Disappointing, but fair enough; indeed expected at this point.

"It would help if we stopped electing MBAs to the presidency and lawyers into Congress." Absolutely; right on the money. I cannot agree with the original author more!

"Advance research has no hope went confronted by science fiction romance of a man in the moon. However that is what we have which is why such important research tools such as the super collider are shelved. And while an astronaut and cosmonaut try to maintain a space station that has no scientific purpose."

I point out to the original author that the "science fiction romance of a man in the moon" has been the inspiration for much advanced plasma research, i.e. the VASIMIR and ion drives. The basic principles behind the VASIMIR and ion drive is being used for atomic deposition of carbon for the creation of new materials. Many have called the coming age of research and its applications the "Diamond Age" because of the carbon deposition (specifically Carbon 60, or C^60) research.

"ISS is glorious and romantic; basic research be damned. Men scratching for water on the moon currently would be just as silly."

This semi-formed paragraph is very strange, indeed. No statement has been made that basic research should not be done, rather I have been attempting to show that artificial divisions of basic and application research simply don't exist outside of dictionary definitions. Further, I have been suggesting that we retire our tired workhorse shuttle fleet and replace it with a more sensible program of a manned (humanitied? :) ) presence in space. This would enable the ISS to be much more cost efficient, and fulfill it's intended purpose. There is no need to swear, or become agitated.

Let me, if you would, describe what the "scratchings on the moon" would entail. Any colony, any life will need shelter and water. The highly successful Clementine mission sponsored by DARPA found large concentrations of water in the shadows of the craters in southern lunar Aitken basin. There are areas in that region that receive nearly continuous sunshine. This would be needed for power generation and plant growth. All that would be required is the water. Which will be provided by the aforementioned sources of water ice. The lunar surface soil is composed of Silicon, Oxygen, and Aluminum. The lunar soil in it's basic form can be compacted into dense lunarcrete for structures. Silicone can be produced as a sealant if needed. I needn't go into too much detail what the Aluminum can be used for; use your imagination: Wiring, structural members, mirrored surfaces to collect sunlight for solar furnaces. The silicon can be used for solar panels. Further, the silicone can be used for transparent panels and domes if desired; we needn't live in caves. I am not thinking of two people; I am thinking in terms of dozens; friends and colleagues from around the world manning a research station that doubles as a fuel depot. Fuel? Hydrogen and oxygen from water and further sources of oxygen from the soil.

This would require several robotic missions for proof of concept. Indeed, a settlement could be built and ready for habitation remotely.

This sensible and reachable vision of the future will take time and money, and I do not suggest that it can start tomorrow, nor have I ever. I fear I may be damned to repeat this until it is clearly understood.

Furthermore, I am forced to repeatedly state that I find the idea of the Superconducting Supercollider a good, sound idea; I fear this may never be understood by the original author of this thread...

Originally posted by tw

The one tool that most promised a significant return on investment would have been the $8billion super collider. Instead we spent $80billion on ISS. And we will be spending much more as this boondoogle gets into more trouble. And yet one would propose we solve this problem by putting some men on the moon scratching for water?

**

ISS is glorious and romantic; basic research be damned. Men scratching for water on the moon currently would be just as silly.

[COLOR=indigo]What is your obsession with this "scratching for water on the moon"?? There is going to be a WHOLE lot more going on than that. Can't you come up with something else? EVERY post you've made is "scratching for water on the Moon."

You're upset we spent all the money on the ISS, but then seem to assume that was done FOR THE SOLE purpose of putting men on the moon. At least, that is your only overused example. As I pointed out earlier in the thread (and to which you never responded) the ISS is doing much more than that. Your supercollider doesn't help us cure cancer. The ISS is.

Pure research is fine, quantum physics IS a science we need to learn more about, but CERN is there... a supercollider IS there. Why spend $8 billion for something that already exists? You didn't answer that, either. [/COLOR]

Originally posted by OnyxCougar
What is your obsession with this "scratching for water on the moon"?? There is going to be a WHOLE lot more going on than that. ...

You're upset we spent all the money on the ISS, but then seem to assume that was done FOR THE SOLE purpose of putting men on the moon. At least, that is your only overused example. As I pointed out earlier in the thread (and to which you never responded) the ISS is doing much more than that.

ISS currently has no scientific pupose. No emotion. Just a blunt fact that for some reasons others don't believe. Some still believe a myth that ISS is doing science research? Why?

Almost no science is performed on ISS. That is fact. That 'no science on ISS' is why the Columbia, which was suppose to be retired, was instead refurbished - so that NASA had something that could do space science. Columbia disintegrated carrying its science payload. It was never modified to mate to ISS and therefore was kept from retirement because NASA needed a platform to do science. Without Columbia, NASA had no platform to perform basic space science. No emotion. Blunt fact.

The first three ISS occupants just perform maintenance. Almost no human time is available for science. Why then maintain ISS? And why assume ISS is a science platform? Because science was the original purpose of ISS. Something got lost. Not enough money to maintain ISS AND perform science. ISS is that over budget.

Congress had to chose - super collider or ISS. They were told either would cost $8billion. They chose $8billion ISS on a promise that it would be a science platform. Super collider that would answer fundamental science questions was scrapped. In the meantime, ISS now costs $80billion - ten times more, cannot perform research, and now has no purpose.

Why not remove occupants and temporarily put ISS to sleep? Russians strongly oppose that because of their previous experience. ISS requires so much human maintenance that ISS may be lost. What Russia had to do just to reoccupy Mir was considered a major human achievement. Mir was almost lost because humans were not on board to constantly fix it. ISS has same problems. Put it to sleep and ISS may be lost - because it requires constant maintenace.

Show me where ISS advances mankind? And show me where putting men on the moon's southern pole would currently have any productive advantage? Only reasons given were for the greater glory - reasons of romance - not one basic scientific reason provided.

There are some long term reasons why we might eventually want humans on the moon. One is to provide earth with energy directed to earthborne receivers using microwaves. Just another reason why eventually man will find productive uses for the moon. But currently we have nothing to gain from lunar residents. That is simply blunt fact as demonstrated by a shortage of ideas in this thread.

Some of the world's most promising science have questions whose answers are found in tools that smash sub-atomic particles. Only a fool would think that Ballard Power is going to solve these fundamental science questions. Many breakthrough technologies called American products exist because previous research was performed mostly in the US at American particle smashers. However those advantages will be moving overseas because we chose to waste $80+billion on ISS, many times more to keep some lunar occupants alive, and chose not to build the super collider. Romance makes more sense than basic research? Men on the moon and ISS come at the elimination of other and more promising science.

What are the fundamental science questions to be answered by keeping two men on the moon? Same as being answered by three men on ISS. Virtually nothing.

Most space research is performed by robot satellites (ie probes to Mars, Hubble, Soho, etc). They cost little and produce so much science. Putting men in space costs so much and consumes massive resources only to keep those men alive not doing science. It even comes at the expense of other robot reseach platforms. Fundamental - there is almost no science ongoing on ISS. Those astronauts and cosmonauts spend almost all productive hours maintaining the station. That is the dirty little secret about ISS. When it became too expensive, the first function eliminated were science experiments.

Bottom line - not one good reasons justifies ISS - let alone some humans on the moon. Only provided are romantic ideas that if men live on the moon, then automatically major science breakthroughs will occur. Nonsensical scientific fiction. Current science is still struggling to find reasons to go to the moon. Eventually some good reasons will be discovered. But today we should be learning the science that will make that journey possible. That knowledge is found in basic research tools such as the super collider and not in romantic 'man in space' journeys. Nothing romantic or emotional about it. Just blunt fact. Why do so many here love boondoogles such as ISS?

Originally posted by Uryoces
The author mentioned Bell labs, and the basic research that was performed there. Bell was expecting that some application would come from the researcher's efforts there. The transistor is simply an application of that research to replace the vacuum tube. For all the advances that the transistor brought, and as great as it is, it was simply an evolutionary step.

The transistor was not developed because Bell expected some application to result. It was not an attempt to replace the vacuum tube - even though it did so. The transistor was simply basic research to learn if and how semiconductors would works as electronic valves. Bell could not find an early purpose for transistors!

Along comes Akio Morita who signs a licensing agreement for the concept called transistor. During paper signing, Bell executives are so curious. Why was Morita interested in transistors? Morita says he planned to develop transistor radios - application development. Bell executives were amazed. Western Electric had tried and failed to do that. The rest of that history (Sony) is common knowledge.

Bell Labs is fundamental research as defined by the legendary Mervin Kelly in 1950:

[best industrial researchers] must be given freedoms that are equivalent to those of the research man in the university. It is most important for the scientists to confine their efforts to the area of research. If they extend the area of their efforts even to that of fundamental development [the area of work that immediately follows research], they tend to lose contact with the forefront of their field of scientific interest. In time, a considerable fraction will lose their productivity in research.

Bell Labs in its heyday expected no products from basic research performed there. As a result, it got tremendously successful knowledge from the Labs that resulted in so many famous products.

I am only demonstrating again the difference between basic research and application development. Something that MBAs don't understand and therefore destroyed some famous sources of American productivity - ie Sarnoff Labs, Bendix Research Labs, and the post 1995 diffussion of Bell Labs. In IBM, Gerstner was about to do same to IBM Labs when he was convinced otherwise. He later admitted that not having sold off their Labs was one of the most successful decisions he ever made. IBM Labs do basic research such as moving Argon atoms to spell out "IBM". No product. But that basic research is necessary to make application development possible. That is well understood by those who come from science. The separation between basic research and application development is essential in the advancement of science.

Bell did not expect any products to come from the Labs. They only expected basic research to happen as defined by Mervin Kelly starting in 1936. What were some of the early products that were created by basic research in quantum theory? The thermal, electrical, and magnetic properties of crystals. Breakthrough quantum research that later created products found on WWII battlefields. Funny how tools used in quantum research eventually result in amazing new products. But then that is why fundamental research and application development are two separate functions. It is why the super collider would have been so productive for America - instead of Europe.

Originally posted by tw
ISS currently has no scientific pupose. No emotion. Just a blunt fact that for some reasons others don't believe. Some still believe a myth that ISS is doing science research? Why?

Almost no science is performed on ISS. That is fact.

[COLOR=indigo]Then explain all the experiments currently running in the ISS. Please review my first post, for the website showing the experiments.

It's not a blunt fact, because it's not a fact at all.

AND there already IS a supercollider in CERN. Why create a duplicate of that when we could have something new?
[/COLOR]

More reasons why we prefer spending science money on boondoogles:

from NY Times of 11 Nov 2003
"Isn't it incredible that you have so much fundamentalism, retreating back to so much ignorance?" remarked Dr. George A. Keyworth II, President Ronald Reagan's science adviser.

The disaffection can be gauged in recent opinion surveys. Last month, a Harris poll found that the percentage of Americans who saw scientists as having "very great prestige" had declined nine percentage points in the last quarter-century, down to 57 from 66 percent. Another recent Harris poll found that most Americans believe in miracles, while half believe in ghosts and a third in astrology ...

In this atmosphere of ambivalence, research priorities have become increasingly politicized,...

The main exceptions to the downward trend in the federal science budget are for health and weapons. This year, spending on military research hit $58 billion, higher in fixed dollars than during the cold war.

Meanwhile, other countries are spending more on research, taking some of the glory that America once monopolized. Japan, Taiwan and South Korea now account for more than a quarter of all American industrial patents, according to CHI Research. Europe is working on what will be the world's most powerful atom smasher. ...

... latest numbers show that 90 percent of adult Americans say they are very or moderately interested in science discoveries. Even so, only half the survey respondents knew that the Earth takes a year to go around the Sun. ...

... about two-thirds of the public believe that alternatives to Darwin's theory of evolution should be taught in public schools alongside this bedrock concept of biology itself. ...

The leading foes of Darwin espouse a theory called "intelligent design," which holds that purely random natural processes could never have produced humans. [since it sounds 'intelligent', then it must be right - reality be damned]. ....

By 1999, according to the latest figures from the National Science Foundation, the number of foreign students in full-time engineering programs had soared so high that it exceeded, for the first time, the steeply declining number of Americans. ...

How many noticed that ISS does no science - that list of experiments would never be done except that the ISS is desperately seeking something "scientific" to justify its existence. And the amount of science being done is so trivial as to be Zero. The problem lies with us.

Take computer experts as an example. How many programmers can perform logic minimization? IOW most programmers don't even have basic logic training. How many computer "builders" can list tasks performed by a power supply. They don't need no electrical knowledge. They fix computers because they are experts - they own a screwdriver.

Ignorance of science is so widespread that some never learned the diffference between fundamental research and application research; and why it must remain separate. Some think Ballard Power Systems can do sub-atomic research necessary for major breakthroughs in fuel cells. Or that practical superconductivity, a sub-atomic concept, will be understood without smashing atoms. Or that GM crops will destroy the world. Or that the Bible tells us everything we need know.

We are entering a period of scientific hearasy as demonstrated by the big bucks put into ISS and the total naviety about what a super collider could have accomplished. No wonder more than 50% of all Master's Degrees are now in business - a philosophy similar to communism.

[COLOR=indigo]But there's already a supercollider.

Why build another one of those and have two of the same thing, when they can build it, and we can build the ISS? Then we have one of each.

See, tw, I *do* see the need for a supercollider. I understand it's important to science. But they're building it. So why is it so important that the US spent $8 billion on something someone has already built? Why not spend that money on something different?
[/COLOR]

Originally posted by OnyxCougar
[COLOR=indigo]But there's already a supercollider.

Why build another one of those and have two of the same thing, when they can build it, and we can build the ISS? Then we have one of each.[/COLOR]

*They* are the Europeans who, as the NY Times article notes, will be prospering at the expense of America. Second, they are not building Cern. Cern is a smaller existing ring being converted because America is cutting back on science (where did the World Wide Web came from?) Many types of colliders are possible. I have forgotten the two most promising particles that could be collided. But Cern is being converted to smash the same type of particles that the super collider should have been smashing years ago. Furthermore, the TX supercollider was to have energy levels necessary to meet current science experiments; energy levels that will not be available at Cern.

IOW we had the option of remaining the world leaders in fundamental particle research and therefore the first potential beneficary of those breakthrough technologies. Instead we paid 10+ times more for an ISS that does no science. Therein lies the problem. As the NY Times article notes, America is becoming so scientifically naive as to not even understand what the super collider could have accomplished AND what the ISS really does (nothing).

I would suspect that many here only just learned what happens inside a fuel cell in this thread - the breakdown of an atom into leptons and baryons. Fuel cells, supercondutivity, and yes even the recent Intel press release about a breakthrough in high-K materials to replace sillicon dioxide - all involve sub atomic concepts.

But ISS must be more valuable? After all that is outer space! .... Doing what? It's not doing any science which is why the Columbia was not be retired. Only manned research being done in space were in those science modules put inside the space shuttle. And the more productive science is found in unmanned space craft such as Hubble, Soho, Pioneer, Mars Landers, Venus flybys, etc. Again, too many instead have the science knowledge found in a Leno piece called "Jay Walking".

[COLOR=indigo]I don't watch Jay Leno.

But..you keep saying that the ISS isn't doing any science. I posted a link to the ISS science experimentation page and posted information from that page in this thread.

It may not be what you consider useful science, it may not be alot of science, it may not be what you consider relevant science, but it *is* science. And the experiments change with every set of astro/cosmonauts that go up there, so it's use is flexible.

Now, whether or not the ISS is overpriced or over funded or whatever is not what I'm discussing here. If you wanna get pissed, be pissed at the govt. for turning up it's nose a $8 billion for the collider, then spending god knows how much on "rebuilding" a country we should have pulled out of months ago that obviously doesn't want us in there. See, I'd much rather spend the money on 2 super colliders than on that. But that's for another thread.

BUT! You quoted the NYT:

Meanwhile, other countries are spending more on research, taking some of the glory that America once monopolized. Japan, Taiwan and South Korea now account for more than a quarter of all American industrial patents, according to CHI Research. Europe is working on what will be the world's most powerful atom smasher. ...

Oh, come on, now. Taking some of the glory that America once monopolized? That is so much "tug at the emotion" propaganda.... SO WHAT if we don't hold a monopoly on glory? The US is the only one allowed to have glory now? SO WHAT if Japan has more patents then us? Please explain to me how this is so horrific a thing, because I am missing something here. And please...please for the love of all that's good in the world, please...don't get personal and call me retarded or an imbecile. Please. Keep it friendly. I'm just trying to understand what you're saying and I'm asking for clarification.
[/COLOR]

Originally posted by OnyxCougar
[COLOR=indigo]I don't watch Jay Leno.

But..you keep saying that the ISS isn't doing any science. I posted a link to the ISS science experimentation page and posted information from that page in this thread. [/COLOR]

I too could perform an experiment in space to see if I can make grass grow straight up in space. That is not science. And yet that is how desperate most of the 'so called' science is on the ISS. Useless nonsense that could not be cost justified anywhere else - except that ISS needs something to justify the $80+ billion.

I periodically get NASA tech breifs - a summary of new inventions and technologies. I have yet to read one from an ISS experiment. Many from space lab - on the shuttle. Nothing from ISS. And most done down here on earth. IOW the amount of science being done on ISS is - rounded to the nearest third significant digit - is Zero.

In the meantime, whether you watch Leno is completely irrelevant. Only posted to diffuse the issue. The issue is what is portrayed on "Jay Walking" - and not what OnyxCougar watches on TV.

Originally posted by OnyxCougar
[COLOR=indigo]SO WHAT if we don't hold a monopoly on glory? The US is the only one allowed to have glory now? SO WHAT if Japan has more patents then us? Please explain to me how this is so horrific a thing, because I am missing something here. And please...please for the love of all that's good in the world, please...don't get personal and call me retarded or an imbecile. Please. Keep it friendly. I'm just trying to understand what you're saying and I'm asking for clarification.
[/COLOR]

Do you know what has happened to the American economy? We don't make things. Our income is based almost entirely on innovation and measured by the number of patents and copyrights. Have you been watching what is happening to Tiawan? They too are moving up into businesses that require knowledge. Most every business report shows the rows of Tiawan factories shut down and moved to mainland China. The rest of the world now makes things - and should be growing our crops (and direct reference to the recent Cancum conference that I need not define because it was well reported in decent newspapers).

More than ever, we must keep moving up the food chain - stay ahead of Tiawan - which means even more of the world's innovations must come from America - or else we too suffer deprecession, downsizing, and bankruptcies.

To maintain an income, that income comes mostly from the intellecutal value found only in innovation. But if less patents come from the US, then you must take a severe pay cut - because we innovate less. Pay cuts are usually instituted by inflation, drop of the dollar on world markets, corporate bankruptcy (complete with golden parachutes), and layoffs. Pay cuts and job losses come directly from a loss of innovation - as indicated by a reduction in US patents.

This nation would not be a world leader without the greater CA region - OR, WA, AZ, CO, TX - where most innovations and therefore patents come from. Only a person without basic economic knowledge would associate patents with glory. We don't produce. We invent - innovate. Why the US has been so prosperous since 1992. Rather scary that you don't understand significance of that decrease in patents since it takes us back to the recession of 1990 - and even worse to the terrible times called the 1970s - when an engineer could not get a job to save his soul - except in the greater CA area.

The patents and copyrights we don't produce today means no jobs in four years. Only the ill informed would associate patents with glory. When there is no innovation, then we have identified anti-American industries (ie. big steel that George Jr protects at the expense of American jobs).

George Jr also does not understand why number of patents is a precursor to serious economic problems- a leading indicator of future diminished economic growth. George Jr is an MBA meaning he would not comprehend the importance of that last sentence. Value of a patents cannot be mesured on spread sheets or by a technically ignorant president. Please don't associate yourself with a mental midget president. Appreciate the serious future problem indicated by a serious drop in US patents - as has already been demonstrated in 1990 and the 1970s.

[color=indigo]
Well, understand that I asked because I know virtually nothing about economics (which is obvious) and therefore don't have a basic grasp of how all this works together. (Econ is one of the classes I have to take in the next 3 semesters. I've been putting it off.) So let me see if I grasp the fundamentals, one at a time, as you presented them:

(1) We are not a country that creates it's wealth through production of items, we make our money through new ideas, innovations, patents, etc, and then the production countries like China and Korea are actually paying us to use those ideas and then they make the products. Then stores in the US buy those products back, and sells them to Americans, thus our money is ultimately going overseas.

Is that the basic idea?

It seems to me that we better be getting more from selling the patents than we send back in buying the products, or we lose.

Is that right?
[/color]

Originally posted by OnyxCougar
[B][color=indigo]
It seems to me that we better be getting more from selling the patents than we send back in buying the products, or we lose.

Is that right?[/color]

Some income comes from selling rights to patents. Some comes from other sources of innovation. For example, let's take that computer.

Intel limits their manufacturing to the more complex parts of a computer - where their superior work in atomic and sub-atomic physics results in massive innovation. Intel once made (and created all the original types of) memory and all the peripheral chips. But there is not enough innovation in memory and peripherals to justify Intel's involvement in that less innovative part of the business. Intel makes the CPU. Intel then tells other companies (ie Tiawan) what is required from memory, chip sets, and peripherals. Intel even defines what must be in the power supply AND how PC traces must be laid out on the computer board.

Other countries make all the computers. They purchase rights and other innovative (and intellectual property) from the US to make computers. They learn how to lay out those PC traces. The more advanced countries learn what is required in those simple chip sets (other ICs that support the Intel computer chip) and make those chip sets per American requirements.

We don't make computers in America. But we earn substancial money by defining what must be in those computers and how to make them work. That is how the American economy has changed and is changing.

But if America is not being so innovative; if Japan, Korea, Tiawan, Germany, France, Britian, etc are now doing more patents; then America's future 4 to 10 years from now will be threatened.

This is exactly why the US suffered so much in the 1970s. The domestic auto industry is a classic example of what happens when innovation dies. Look at history in the 1950s and 1960s. Every year, a new auto innovation would appear - automatic transmission, power steering, safety brakes, McPherson strut suspension, stratefied charge engine, better combustion methods (ie. Chryslers CAP system). American cars were even exported everywhere. But in the 1970s, American innovations were being stifled by those who did not even have driver's licenses - and were therefore top auto executives.

There was no unfair Japanese competition. There were too many American MBA educated executives who followed the concepts of the Harvard Business School and therefore stifled or gave away innovation. Lost profits because they could not measure those innovation on spread sheets. They only understood what spread sheets could report. Innovation appears on no spread sheets until after the innovation appears in products.

Who was making major profits on automobiles sold in America? Japanese and Europeans. Why? Honda was the two best selling American vehicle in 1980s America - because they used innovations pioneered in America and that were kept out of America by Henry Ford. The stratefied charge engine was called the CVCC in Honda. Honda's would start every time, pollute less, got better gas mileage, and required much less platinum because Honda used American innovations that American stifled or gave away.

Japan is famous for the transistor radio. They paid AT&T for transistor rights because AT&T executives had no idea of the value of their invention. Sony is what resulted. When Americans do not understand the value of a technology, then other countries have prospered emmensely from myopic American management. Who created the VCR? Not Japan. But the American company (Ampex) was so technically nieve as to all but give away the VCR to Japan.

Why did the US economy take off starting in the late 1980s? Enough American businesses (startups without MBA domination) understood the value of their innovations as to make profits from those innovations. The most stunning example of those resulting profits are found in the American electonics industry of the greater California region (Intel, HP, Cisco, Seagate, etc).

Cisco does not manufacturer or even touch most of their products. Cisco defines what their product must do and has third party companies manufacturer their products. Most Cisco products are shipped direct from that third party manufacturer to the customer. Cisco does not even touch many of the products they sell. Intellectual value is what Cisco sells. Others make the product.

How did Microsoft make so many profits at the expense of IBM? Microsoft's people were programmers. IBM's were MBAs. Microsoft did the high tech parts of DOS, Windows 9x, OS/2, etc. IBM did the 'third world' programming. When it came to getting paid, IBM ended up paying Microsoft for the important parts of OS/2 because Microsoft did then what America must do today. The smart parts must be innovated in America so as to be manufactured overseas. The dumb programming work must now be done in India. It is a world economy.

Originally posted by tw

We don't make computers in America. But we earn substancial money by defining what must be in those computers and how to make them work. That is how the American economy has changed and is changing.

[COLOR=indigo]ok, I think I understand what you're saying, but I disagree on the above statement. We do make computers in America. My sister used to work at Hughes aircraft putting microchips together for computers. We do build computer components here. Now, on a larger scale, I don't know where Dell, Gateway, etc. get their parts, but I do know there are some computer components made in the US.

That being said, (and I know it's nit picky, but I did want to point it out), I have a little better understanding of economics, and from that understanding, I think I'm more isolationist than before, isolationist meaning:

If Americans were to produce the stuff, in addition to the innovation, not only would there be less unemployment, but also more of American's money would remain in the US. Doesn't that strengthen the economy even more?

I realize this is elementary stuff to most of you, and I apologize for my huge lack of knowledge on the subject.[/COLOR]

Originally posted by OnyxCougar
[COLOR=indigo]ok, I think I understand what you're saying, but I disagree on the above statement. We do make computers in America. My sister used to work at Hughes aircraft putting microchips together for computers. We do build computer components here. Now, on a larger scale, I don't know where Dell, Gateway, etc. get their parts, but I do know there are some computer components made in the US.
[/COLOR]

If we make 10 computers here and 10,000 there, then we make zero computers here. Its about perspective. Any number after the second or third signficant digit becomes irrelevant.

Now if those Hughes computers are something special, then we make those unique computers here even though we make virtually no PC in America.

Almost all laptops for IBM, Dell, and HP are made by the same Tiawan manufacturer - name long since forgotten. He builds them. We define how he must build them.

I too still build a computer from time to time. But when talking about economies, we still make no computers because I don't make enough.

More places that $80billion could have been spent:

from the NY Times of 13 Nov 2003
Alvin, the submersible that for decades led the American effort to probe the depths of the seas, illuminating such things as the rusting hulk of the Titanic and bizarre ecosystems lush with tube worms, should be upgraded, replaced or joined by a new vehicle that can take people even deeper,...

Launched almost 40 years ago, Alvin began a global revolution in deep exploration but, despite regular upgrades, has become increasingly outdated and limited compared with the diving craft of other nations. Today, two Russian vehicles and a French one can dive about 3.75 miles, and the Japanese hold the world record with a craft that can go down 4 miles.

Alvin was built in a time when science was not so micromanaged by those without science backgrounds.

Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
Oh Boy! Cigarette butts and Kodak wrappers all the way to mars.

from NY Times of 9 Dec2003
Mars Mission's Invisible Enemy: Radiation

In a new $34 million NASA laboratory here, part of Brookhaven National Laboratory, scientists are using subatomic particles accelerated to nearly the speed of light to slam into materials that could be used in a spaceship, and tissue samples and small animals. Using tools like PET and M.R.I. scans and DNA sequencing, they hope to shed light on ways that radiation damages biological tissue, and what can be done about it.

Demonstrated again, fundamental sub-atomic research even is necessary before humans can explore of Mars. We still don't have much of the basic technology necessary. Anyone interested in Mars exploration should understand why knowledge gained from the 'not built' super collider and other basic research is still required before we can even consider a Mars mission. Observe the problem of years in space when outside the earth's magnetosphere as exampled in this article. And then there remains other problems such as propulsion which we really have not solved.

But instead we built the ISS.

Cisco does not manufacturer or even touch most of their products. Cisco defines what their product must do and has third party companies manufacturer their products. Most Cisco products are shipped direct from that third party manufacturer to the customer. Cisco does not even touch many of the products they sell. Intellectual value is what Cisco sells. Others make the product.

So this puts a nifty income into the pockets of relatively few Americans. That won't keep the US economy from going to hell. The millions of good paying jobs that have been exported do more damage than 100 Ciscos could counteract.

Originally posted by tw

*snip*
Anyone interested in Mars exploration should understand why knowledge gained from the 'not built' super collider and other basic research is still required before we can even consider a Mars mission. Observe the problem of years in space when outside the earth's magnetosphere as exampled in this article.
*snip*
But instead we built the ISS.

[COLOR=indigo]And CERN is being built. We still get to use it. It's not like there isn't one available to American science.

oooo post 666.....[/COLOR]

Originally posted by OnyxCougar
And CERN is being built. We still get to use it. It's not like there isn't one available to American science.

Cern was built long ago. It is simply being upgraded to attempt some of what a super collider was suppose to have accomplished long ago. But then I made that point previously. Who profits from all that research, new products, and the motion of best minds to where the tools are? That is European profit at the expense of America.

The Manhatten Project demonstrated what happened to science in the mid 20th Century. So many important people were immigrants or refugees from Hitler. Back then the mathematics centers were Paris, Oslo, and Goeinburg (I know the spelling of that Purssian city is wrong but the town was razed by the Russian almost completely and is now their major Baltic Naval base). Center of the world for advanced Physics was Oslo and some other European towns. US became the world science leader because science had to flee to the US to work (and survive).

IEEE is noting a serious problem in America's future. Something like a 20% drop in applicants for doctorates in the US because Office of Fatherland Security built a bureacracy (rather than address why the WTC happened). Major conferences on technology are being forced out of the US because of this new bureacracy (that does not solve the original security problem). Why is Intel and Cisco doing their conference on mesh networking in Canada? Good technical people are being denied access to the US by Fatherland Security. Other science, such as advanced particle physics will be moving to Cern where "they" will profit from the new products. Where does IBM labs do advanced atomic and subatomics research? The work that makes new faster, smarter, smaller semiconductors possible? In Switzerland just down the road from Cern.

The original point is not this above. The original point is that we have so much more to learn (so much more work to do) here on earth before we can ever consider a manned spaceflight to Mars. We also don't even possess the technology to make it happen. Noted earlier in this thread is how the US is becoming third even in deep sea exploration - a more promising environment than space for man's next 100 years. All this decision making should not be dependant on policitians. And yet even Fatherland Security now routinely makes science more difficult - and not just with access to conferences.


More good science resources are wasted on boondoggles such as the anti-ballistic missile system - so that we can run up debts and destroy international treaties to enrich the wrong people. We need science decisions based upon science - and not by an MBA administration. For advanced sub-atomic particle research that makes supeconducitivity and new materials possible - move to Europe. US instead wants to spend money on invading other nations for things like oil and building useless anti-ballistic missile systems.

A manned flight to Mars is at least, many decades away. We still have just too much science to learn - and a government that now spends more on war then the entire world combined. War does not create new science. But war, such as VietNam, contributed to the thinning of the Science and Technology Index in libraries. Take a look. During VietNam, the US Science and Technology Index decreased resulting in a 70's and early 80's recession. Just more examples of why politicians are the worst people to make science decisions; ISS being only another example.