I'm a Birdbrain
And I have this picture to prove it. This colorful little guy is a kestrel named Falco. He is currently the ward of a terrific group of falconers who have become regular participants in various of our Pagan festivals over the past couple of years. It has been a rare and very groovy opportunity to become intimate (no, not that way, you filthy-minded dregs) with various raptors, including hawks of several species and, this weekend for the first time, their Gyr Falcon-Kestrel hybrid named Lisa.
While not Pagan, these falconers are extremely Pagan-friendly (in fact, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if they eventually became Pagan, so comfortable are they around all of us and our naked, partying, drumming, witchy ways.
They do great work rescuing and rehabilitating birds in need, and even, as in the cases of Lisa and Falco, adopting them and making a committment to care for them for the rest of their lives due to various maladies and/or Federal regulations (Lisa should live about another 38 years in captivity...that's a long committment!).
Anyway, all this just to say that I attended another great Fest this weekend, participating in Scottish Highland games in 105 degree weather. I sucked, but I felt pretty manly for a guy who is only two years post-bypass surgery. Made some new friends, caught up with some old ones, and generally acted like a Pagan. Doesn't get much better than this for me...
Such a cool looking bird. Very vocal, too...
This was the fun throw after the axe throwing competition. Normally, contestants throw a little tomahawk sort of thing at a giant log target, but after that's been settled, people break out the ridiculous toys, and we have a go with them...
There were two events that would have just been stupid for me to even attempt, and this is one of them. The Stone Carry, or what I prefer to call the BFR Carry...Big Fucking Rock. 185 pounds of solid stone, with rounded edges making it that much harder to grip. No way, Jose. Still, the winner carried it 515 feet in just under two minutes. Just for the record, the guy in the picture wasn't the winner.
I'm thinking those shoes are not OSHA friendly.
Man thats a beautiful bird. :thumb:
I did! I did see a puhdy tat! And I ate it, burp.
I guess you don't mention the skirt when he's got an axe like that.
I tried the caber toss......once. Great pics man, thanks
The caber toss event featured three different size cabers...12', 14' and 16'. I turned the 12', did not turn the 14', and was smart enough to not try to pick up the 16'.
I like the dude's kilt, though (I like kilts generally) ... I think that's one of the "utilikilts" which are made by a company over in Ardmore somewhere ... one of my friends has one, but he hasn't, as far as I know, had the courage to wear it in public as yet. I'll have to check with him.
The raptor pics are great also El, looks like you had a great time.
Preparation H is missing a good bet by not buying advertising space on the cabers.:(
Wolf, the camo job is indeed a utilikilt. There were fewer of those than usual this year for some reason. A lot of the Safety (i.e., Security with a kindler, gentler name) guys wear them at the big Fest we hold over Memorial Day, but most of them didn't participate at Tara this year due to the heat.
It was a blast, though. Lots of great drumming, and I got to play a little music with an old band partner and also with a friend who is a great native flute player.
OH...and in case it wasn't obvious from the subject line, that's my bloated, aging visage in the first pic with Falco on my head.
egad! I love to look at men's legs when they wear kilts. Oh, nice bird too.
Elspode.....I know this is a bit off the thread, but what exactly do you do as a pagan? I obviously live a somewhat sheltered life (raised Catholic, non-practicing now for the most part), but is this a religion for you (pagan def. according to Webster = same as heathen, one who has no religion) or is it a way of life for you? Are you a witch, or warlock rather? I thought you'd be Wicken (sp?) then. Your festival looks similar to a RenFair. Is that accurate? What's the difference? I'm not trying to grill you or anything, just curious. Maybe I should have sent you a PM with all my questions?
The birds are beautiful. You should feel lucky to have the opportunity to handle them:cool:
Well, I try not to adhere to Webster's idea of Paganism as I do in fact have a religion. I am Wiccan, and the preferred term for Wiccans is 'witch'. Warlock is more properly used for someone who has turned against his or her coven...translation for it is "oath breaker". Much of the information in the world regarding Paganism and other non-Christian paths is promulgated by Christians, who tend to have a very narrow view of spirituality and have very clearly stated that any path which is not Christian is wrong and damns one to hell.
The festival of which I posted photos is actually centered around a Scottish Highland Games, and it isn't overtly a Pagan festival, although in practice everyone who attends is Pagan as far as I can tell.
I am always happy to answer any questions anyone might have about my path or other Pagan paths of which I have any knowledge...education and community service are the primary missions of our coven.
On a lighter note, I think you would find Wiccan and other Goddess worship paths very familiar as Catholicism is practically goddess worship anyway...;) . In fact, of all the former Christian religions from which my Pagan friends and associates hail, Catholicism seems to be the most common...
There is one thing I can say about Pagans. I've met an awful lot of them in my time, and every damned one of them was really nice to me. I've never met a witch who was a mean-spirited jerk. I'm sure they must exist, but they must be pretty rare.
There are many religions that you most definitely can't say that about.
Originally posted by Elspode
Much of the information in the world regarding Paganism and other non-Christian paths is promulgated by Christians, who tend to have a very narrow view of spirituality and have very clearly stated that any path which is not Christian is wrong and damns one to hell.
I know what you mean here. That's part of the reason I'm "non-practicing". There are a lot of things I don't agree with in Catholicism and "if" there is a hell, I don't want to go just because I didn't believe some of their "stories".
Originally posted by Elspode
The festival of which I posted photos is actually centered around a Scottish Highland Games, and it isn't overtly a Pagan festival, although in practice everyone who attends is Pagan as far as I can tell.
That's funny. I would have never pictured a witch wearing a kilt.
Originally posted by Elspode
On a lighter note, I think you would find Wiccan and other Goddess worship paths very familiar as Catholicism is practically goddess worship anyway...;)
Maybe I'm missing your humor here, but if you consider the sacrificing of virgins to be Goddess worship I don't want any part of it.
I'm interested in persuing this conversation. I'm still curious. Watch for a PM if you don't mind. I'm having a heck of a time trying to make my post pretty. There must be a better way to respond to parts of a post without all the copying, pasting, and vB coding I'm doing. I realize I'm a computer dummy, but it shouldn't take an hour to reply to a post:confused:
LUVBUGZ -
There isn't a better what, but here's what I do.
First, use the quote function to start the quote. Delete all that you are not replying to.
(Secondly, I remove the bold tags, because I don't find them necessary, but this step is obviously optional.)
Third, respond.
Fourth, type in [quote] (or hit the Quote button, put a space in and then hit Ok to set up brackets automatically - this is smarter and easier, but I always type it out myself) and then paste in the next part you want to respond to. Don't worry about bolding it (if you're doing step 2) and that's one less step. When you're done, close the tag (I can't do it or it'll quote the text I've written) or, if you were smart, you don't need to, 'cause it's already been done.
GOTO Step 3.
It's more a pain in the ass than, say, taking a nap. But it's still pretty easy. If you respond to one post (or person) for each one of your posts, this makes everything very readable. If you want to respond to multiple people, then you have to deal with attributing whatever to whomever and it gets to be a headache (and you spend an hour doing a two minute job). It's all in the approach; you, too, can respond like a pro! Just work out ahead of time what your post will be like and then get to it!
I think it's easier to just copy and paste what I want to respond to. If the reader has been following the thread, they'll know who said it, if they care.:)
Don't take the discussion to PM, we're interested in your conversation. :(
Anyway, witches don't sacrifice virgins. That's just a myth spread around by Christians.
Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
I think it's easier to just copy and paste what I want to respond to. If the reader has been following the thread, they'll know who said it, if they care.:)
It's only safe to leave out their name if there are very few posts in between yours and theirs. Otherwise, it's very confusing for your readers, especially in long and active threads.
Dave,
Thanks for the info. I was hoping there was an easier way, but I guess I'll just have to deal:( Is this the dave that gave Anne a blast of :turd: for guestioning his pixel arranging capabilities? That was very entertaining. If you are the one, you went off dude! I can see your side, but I think Anne was just making a flip remark w/out really meaning to insult your intelligence or abilities. Anyway, I don't want to get those polemics started again. Needless to say I enjoyed it:biggrin: You seem nice enough to me, offering pearls of wisdom to Newbie such as myself:p
Originally posted by juju
Don't take the discussion to PM, we're interested in your conversation. :(
Ok, I just thought it might be easier to talk there where I wouldn't have to worry about quoting every other sentence. If Elspode is game, so am I. Maybe I'll ask one question at a time, although that could lead to a pretty long thread. Should I continue here or should a new "Pagan thread" be started? Not sure what forum protocol is:confused:
Anyway, witches don't sacrifice virgins. That's just a myth spread around by Christians.
Actually, I was refering to the Christians doing the sacrificing. I seem to remember something about that from the Bible (or maybe that was an Indiana Jones flic?):confused:
Anne made the ultimate mistake of posting what sounded to me like condescension, although it may have been unintentional. That's the one thing that most people won't tolerate. Everybody has a right to express their opinion. We're all equal so you can disagree with anyone, even UT. He owns the joint but he's the consummate gentleman. :)
Anyway, witches don't sacrifice virgins.
But the do sacrifice virginity.:p
Hey juju,
Now I remember why I assumed you were a girl aside from the semi-fem screen name. I remember during Dave's pixel ability debate that his byline read '...loves juju w/ all his heart'. Considering my possibly misguided Catholic background, I assumed you were a girl. Not even considering that you to may be "partners". Not that there's anything wrong w/ that, but I'm just curious.:)
Originally posted by LUVBUGZ
Ok, I just thought it might be easier to talk there where I wouldn't have to worry about quoting every other sentence. If Elspode is game, so am I. Maybe I'll ask one question at a time, although that could lead to a pretty long thread. Should I continue here or should a new "Pagan thread" be started? Not sure what forum protocol is
You could do either. We always drift from the original topic of threads here, so no one is going to object either way.
Anyway, it's no fun if only Elspode gets to know you. :)
juju and I engage in homosexual intercourse on a daily basis.
(Actually, we don't, and I've never met him. That was my user title for a while because of something a month or so ago where he was a weenie and I was real mean back. I actually think he's a pretty cool dude so I kinda put up the silly user title as a way of saying "he doesn't suck, I was just playin'." juju is married and is expecting his first child in the next nine months and I'm EBTR - Everything But The Ring - with my living partner [a female that posts here as jennofay].)
Yes, that's the same Dave. I am a beast, unleashed upon the masses to keep everyone playing nicely (and to tear their fucking throats out when they don't). Occasionally, I go off with very little provocation, but for the most part, if you don't give me a reason to be an asshole, I won't be.
Originally posted by LUVBUGZ
Now I remember why I assumed you were a girl aside from the semi-fem screen name. I remember during Dave's pixel ability debate that his byline read '...loves juju w/ all his heart'. Considering my possibly misguided Catholic background, I assumed you were a girl. Not even considering that you to may be "partners". Not that there's anything wrong w/ that, but I'm just curious.:)
Lol! Well, what can I say. He's just funny that way. Actually, though, I'm married and heterosexual.
What is this, you don't love me anymore??
Bitch.
By the way, the baby is actually due in 2 1/2 months now. Gettin' close! (I know, I know, doom and gloom, just wait you'll regret it, have fun now, enjoy the smell of crap, blah blah blah)
LOL Yeah I think we've pretty well worked you over on that topic.:D
Luvbugz, as stated before, I'm happy to engage in any sort of discussion about my particular path. However, Paganism encompasses a great many differing paths, and I'm by no means an expert on all of them. Like most endeavors, the moment you think you know all you need to know about your religion, you probably should immediately cease practicing it, because you'll be wrong.
Above all else, Wicca is an internal journey. All of the external trappings (lots of cool robes, magickal tools, graven images...all the stuff that the Bible says is bad) mean absolutely nothing in and of themselves. They are tools, just like any other tool, something you use in connection with your spiritual knowledge and efforts, to achieve a state of consciousness.
Wicca, as practiced by my coven, is a path that allows the practitioner much latitude in choice of deity, form of visualization, and source of energies from which to draw. However, like all religious paths, there is no one true form of Wicca. It has permutated since its codification in the early 50's since being brought into being by Gerald Gardner, and there are as many forms of the same basic religion now as there are of Christianity, as far as I can tell.
Most variations have a couple of things in common...first and foremost, Wicca is a religion of personal responsibility. You can't fuck up and blame someone else for it, and no one is going to forgive you. You have to make up for your wrongs. If you intentionally commit harm, you will expect that to be returned to you thrice over. Tends to keep one on the straight and narrow, if you accept that concept to be true.
Anyway, please feel free to throw questions my way. If you want to start a separate thread, please do shoot me a PM with the location and title as I sometimes have to browse The Cellar rather hurriedly, and I'd hate to overlook a topic in which I was supposed to be participating.
Oh...and there *are* a lot of Pagan assholes...probably at least as many as there are in the mundane world, because, in the end, Pagans are people first, and Pagans second. However, *I* am one of the nice ones. :3eye:
From Juju:
Anyway, witches don't sacrifice virgins. That's just a myth spread around by Christians.
Good, a virgin is a terrible thing to waste.
Anyway, Ep, Goddess worship? I find this interesting. What is the role of the Deity if not to forgive or take away responsibility? Just to guide maybe? Also, what forms does 'worship' take? Other than attending what appear to be pretty damn cool festivals, I mean.
Goddess worship in general is an acknowledgement of the female power of creation. Historically, goddess worship was very common, if not prevalent, amongst ancient peoples. These people were very much attuned to the Earth and the cycles of the seasons, and so their practices centered around the events closest to their lives...the turning of the seasons, the cycles of birth (Spring), life (Summer), harvest (Fall) and death (Winter). From the ancient's point of view, plants and animals went through these cycles, as did the entire Earth.
For modern Pagans, these events are symbols, representations of a natural process of which we humans are a part. Our deities tend to be representations of some aspect of the natural world. For some, these deities are as literal as is Jehovah is to his adherents, but for most, these dieties are symbolic, a way to visualize the creative and motive forces of our corporeal existence, and a link to our spiritual selves as part of the greater whole of the universe.
I guess I would say that the purpose Pagan deities serve is pretty much the same as the purpose served by Jehovah or Allah, with the exception of divine forgiveness. Our dieties are the creators and incarnations of the elements of the universe, and we are a part of them...and they of us.
My particular coven practices goddess and god worship in equal measure...we believe in the inherent balance of male and female energies in all things...sort of a 'it takes two to tango' kind of thing. There are Pagan sects which practice goddess worship exclusively, but that's for another post.
As for the Wiccan form of worship, it is ritual like any other ritual. We form circle, or sacred space, entreat the embodiment of the elements of the four directions, and the god and goddess, to join and watch over our proceedings, and then conduct our meditations, spellwork, or whatever within this place 'apart and separate' from the real world. We then share bread and wine (a practice older than the Christian communion), and then dismiss the dieties and elements, and dissolve circle.
Another thing that sets Wicca and a lot of other Pagan paths apart from mainstream religious practices is the fact that we are *all* clergy, in a sense. Anyone can conduct a ritual proceeding, even without others present.
There's a lot more to this, obviously, but this is the basic theme.
El,
I want to preface this and future posts regarding this topic by saying...Please, do not at any time feel I am attacking you or your beliefs. I am asking/commenting because I am interested in learning more about it. My personal "style" is to basically say/ask what I feel which sometimes (often) is mistaken as argumentative, rude, or just plain bitchy. So, in advance, I apologize if I might happen to come across in this manner. Also, although I don't agree w/, buy into, or believe most of Catholicism, that is the only religion I have known and still find myself defending it at times. I know this is hypocritical, but old habits die hard (no pun intended...ya know nuns/habits;)). All this being said, my first issue is.....Wicca vs. Pagan. It may be a symantics thing, but I would consider you a Wiccan rather that a Pagan. For some reason Pagan just sounds 'bad' to me. I asked my dad what a Pagan is once and he said "Pagans where those Roman bastards who piliged, raped, and plundered." He by no means is an expert, but like I noted before good old Webster says a Pagan has NO religion. You also said you consider yourself as having a religion, Wicca. So, am I correct or is there some "New-Pagan" who does 'believe' in some type of religion?
The definition of the term 'Pagan' has, in relatively recent times, become an umbrella term for persons who are not Christian. At least, that's the way those of us who fall under the heading use it.
The terms Pagan and Heathen derive from ancient times, and were descriptive of indigenous peoples in parts of Europe. These peoples worshipped nature, and had their own gods and goddesses (which varied by culture and geographic location). Since the writers of the history books get to pick the terms, they were named Pagan (from paganus, or country-dweller) or Heathen (literally, dwellers on the heath, or countryside). Since those writing the definitions felt that their own religions were the proper, superior ones, these indigenous peoples were assumed to have no religion...well, none that anyone need be concerned with, anyway.;)
There are several modern dictionary definitions for the word Pagan, I submit to you the following from The American Heritage Dictionary online. Definition #1 is the predominant definition in our modern, politically correct world.
http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/p/p0011100.html
So, I guess it comes down to this...Wiccans are Pagans (because our practices are rooted in the practices of the indigenous peoples of Europe), but not all Pagans are Wiccans. I suppose I tend to call myself Pagan more often than Wiccan, and that probably boils down to 'safety in numbers' than anything else. If you only count yourself as Wiccan, the group is smaller, but if you consider yourself part of all the Pagan subgenres, it becomes a substantial number, and that is essentially how our community functions. There's a lot of overlap, and we tend to support each other's paths and rituals, and merge our community efforts and outreach as a group of differents, operating mostly as a group of people with a path in common. Does that help any?
You needn't worry about me being offended by your inquiries. I am generally able to differentiate between honest curiosity and outright attacks. :D
Above all else, Wicca is an internal journey. All of the external trappings (lots of cool robes, magickal tools, graven images...all the stuff that the Bible says is bad) mean absolutely nothing in and of themselves. They are tools, just like any other tool, something you use in connection with your spiritual knowledge and efforts, to achieve a state of consciousness.
I agree that 'external trappings' have no meaning on their own, but these (robes, magical tools, and graven images)
are used as 'symbols', correct? Therefore, they do have meaning and are obvioulsy associated w/ Wicca. I think these things are cool looking, but it's their symbolism that I'm not sure about. I think these objects are what may "scare" outsiders because they
don't know what their significance is and assume it's something bad/scary. So, what are these things used for? I'm sure there are way too many to explain them all, but just name and explain a few for me so I can get a feeling for their significance.
PS...I think I get it about the Pagan/Wicca thing, but I still consider you a Wiccan, if I may. Gee, I might even be a Pagan, I'm a country-dweller.:p
Webster says coven is a gathering or meeting of witches. What's your def.? Is this your particular group of fellow Wiccans, or is there more to it?
The definition of coven is essentially correct. Wiccans consider themselves witches, and our worship groups are called covens, for the most part. I do know of at least one group in our town that has recently formed a Wiccan church...
Ritual tools are indeed symbolic, and any "power" these items have is only that which is imbued by its owner and user. Interestingly, many of the ritual items used in Wicca are things which are commonly found in the homes and hearths of the common people originally.
The first time my son attended a Wiccan ceremony was when my wife and I got handfasted. Following the ceremony, he reported to his mother that people were walking around waving knives and saying things he didn't understand. As she is the product of mainstream Christianity, and not terribly open minded to begin with, she totally lost it. It has taken me literally years of explaining to get her to not actively fear that someone was going to sacrifice something. Now she just says we're all going to burn in hell...
There is a lot of information out there for anyone who cares to look which explains pretty much every aspect of Wicca and other Pagan paths, right down to use of ritual tools, but most people don't really care enough to learn. It is far easier to say "my god is better than your god", and leave it at that. There is nothing to fear from a true practitioner of Wicca, but that isn't to say there aren't Pagan freakos out there, because there are. But there are Christian, Buddist and Muslim freakos as well.
Excuse my ignorance, but what is...handfasted (married?)?
So what exactly were they doing waving knives around?
Not to get too personal, but with your beliefs differing so much from your wife's I would think this creates some strife in the marriage:( Her comment sounds exactly like something my dad (Mr. Catholic) would say.
Obviously, I care enough to learn or I wouldn't be asking, so if you could, would you direct me to some websites or other places to find out more about these rituals and tools? Preferably info. from the 'sane' Wiccans as opposed to the "freako" Pagans you refered to:) Thanks
I should have been more succinct. My son's mother is my *ex* wife. My current wife (to whom I was being handfasted at the time, but to whom I am now legally married as well) is a Wiccan High Priestess, so we tend to see eye to eye on most religious issues.
Ritual cutlery is extremely common in Wicca. A double-edged blade, preferably with a black handle, is referred to as an "athame" (pronunciations vary, but ah-thaa-may is fairly common), and is used in ritual to direct energy, basically the same as a wand. An athame is more appropriate when doing more difficult magickal work, whereas a wand might be preferable if you were doing something like, say, encouraging your plants to grow better, that sort of thing.
Athames are never used to cut *anything* except air. In fact, if you do draw blood, you must break and bury it. There are ritual uses for knives where cutting *is* involved (no, not cutting on any living beings, except possibly plants), and for that, you use a boline (bo lean), a single edged knife reserved for ritual purposes.
BTW, most athames aren't even sharpened, although they are pretty darn pointy.
To be honest, I don't really glean all that much info from the Web regarding Wicca, but there is plenty out there. Warning...not all of it is good, but I really haven't taken the time to evaluate it all. If you are into reading, see if you can locate a book called "The Truth About Witchcraft Today" by Scott Cunningham. Although it is becoming somewhat dated, it is really the standard for dispelling untruths about the modern practice of Wicca and witchcraft (further warning: not all witches are Wiccan, and therefore operate under different standards of ethics than we Wiccans do, so don't assume than any witch you meet is in fact Wiccan...they might not be). If you find anything online that you feel is informative, but you wonder about it, send me the link and I'll be happy to tell you just how flaky or reasonable it is, *from my point of view*. There's a lot of variety, even within Wicca, of practices and ideas.
Oh...and handfasting is an ancient coupling tradition in which a couple promises to be together for a year and a day. At the end of that time, they may either renew their vows, or go their separate ways. I chose to keep the lady I was handfasted with eight years ago, and actually married her outright five years ago. Not surprisingly, our anniversary is on October 31st. It is the highest of Wiccan holidays, and we call it Samhain. You probably know it as All Hallow's Eve, or Halloween. :D
I won't vouch for this site in its entirety, because I have only just brushed it over, but it seems to be fairly decent:
http://www.americanwicca.com/
As always, I am happy to elaborate, comment or otherwise add to any information you find, and answer any questions you may have about anythign you read or hear regarding Wicca, Paganism and alternative spiritualities...from my own point of view, as always.
I'm not always right about everything. It pisses me off, but darn it, that's just the way it is. I'm hoping to correct that sometime during this incarnation, though. :eek:
Hey Els, long time no see. Back to my questions. So, w/in your coven what deities to you "worship" and what do they symbolize?
Catholics say it is a sin to worship deities and you'll go to hell for doing so. I'm assuming they don't, but do witches believe in life after death and that they may spend that afterlife in hell if they sin in life? Or, do they believe they'll get the "thrice over" thing in life and when the body dies that's the end of the story?
My wife says that Catholics aren't considered Christians. Is that true? I thought that in order to be a Christian you just had to "accept Jesus Christ as your savior"?
Originally posted by LUVBUGZ
Hey Els, long time no see. Back to my questions. So, w/in your coven what deities to you "worship" and what do they symbolize?
We sort of pick 'em as we need 'em, I guess. Different deities symbolize different things, depending on their originating pantheon (i.e., Vulcan as God of the Forge...we use him when we want to boost creativity, or make something, be it physical or more evanescent; we choose Mercury if we want to improve communication, or Venus if we ask for assistance in becoming more loving). There is always the Goddess and the God, the male and the female creative and life forces, though, no matter what specific sort of spellwork we are doing. I guess the answer to your question is that we basically worship the Goddess and the God, in whichever form a person chooses to visualize that energy/force/deity.
Catholics say it is a sin to worship deities and you'll go to hell for doing so. I'm assuming they don't, but do witches believe in life after death and that they may spend that afterlife in hell if they sin in life? Or, do they believe they'll get the "thrice over" thing in life and when the body dies that's the end of the story? [/B]
Kind of odd for a religion with more saints than you can shake a censor at, isn't it? ;)
Reincarnation is central to the Wiccan faith. We believe that all things are cyclic...it is based on the notion of birth, death and rebirth that we see as the seasons change. Celtic religions believed in the Summerlands, a place where you went after death where your spirit would walk forever amidst green, sun and plenty. That would certainly have seemed like a big improvement over the cool, damp Northern European/British Isles climates during the periods from which these beliefs arise. Basically, we believe that all of existence is an endless cycle, our own physical bodies included. Our spirits, we believe (as do many other religions, in fact), are timeless.
As for Hell...that's a Christian concept, not a Wiccan one. We don't do Satan, Hell or any of the other permutated visions of damnation, evil and punishment that Christians have concocted out of older, less malign light/dark concepts. So, the "Law of Three" applies to this life, I guess...although I suppose there's nothing preventing you from getting your comeuppance in the next incarnation. :cool:
Originally posted by Elspode Kind of odd for a religion with more saints than you can shake a censor at, isn't it? ;)
Yea, they gots lots of Saints, but I think they pay homage to them as opposed to "worship" them.
Celtic religions believed in the Summerlands, a place where you went after death where your spirit would walk forever amidst green, sun and plenty.
Sounds kinda like "Heaven" to the Catholics, but w/out the hell.
Basically, we believe that all of existence is an endless cycle, our own physical bodies included. Our spirits, we believe (as do many other religions, in fact), are timeless.
I've always wondered about reincarnation. So, is there a set number of souls that just keep getting cycled through. If a baby is born is it a new soul or just one that has been reincarnated?
Originally posted by juju
My wife says that Catholics aren't considered Christians. Is that true? I thought that in order to be a Christian you just had to "accept Jesus Christ as your savior"?
I think Catholics are considered Christians, but for some reason I never liked that classification.
From Juju:
My wife says that Catholics aren't considered Christians. Is that true? I thought that in order to be a Christian you just had to "accept Jesus Christ as your savior"?
Actually, this is a Southern Baptist based misnomer. Catholics aren't
Protestant. However, most Southern Baptist will tell you they are Christian, not Protestant. This is incorrect, actually they are both. Don't see the connection yet? It works like this. Baptist is not Protestant, (at least many of them claim) it is THE Christian religion. If Catholics are neither Baptist nor Protestant they aren't Christian.
I know this sounds bizarre but I've had the arguments over it. One guy even linked Baptist's with John the Baptist as if he founded the branch. Didn't say it outright, just suggested it.
Originally posted by LUVBUGZ
I've always wondered about reincarnation. So, is there a set number of souls that just keep getting cycled through. If a baby is born is it a new soul or just one that has been reincarnated?
I suppose it depends on your personal beliefs. My favorite version of reincarnation is that new souls are created all the time (how else to explain the increase in population?), some are recycled, and some attain perfection and go on to join the All.
Originally posted by Whit
Actually, this is a Southern Baptist based misnomer. Catholics aren't Protestant. However, most Southern Baptist will tell you they are Christian, not Protestant. This is incorrect, actually they are both. Don't see the connection yet? It works like this. Baptist is not Protestant, (at least many of them claim) it is THE Christian religion. If Catholics are neither Baptist nor Protestant they aren't Christian.
I know this sounds bizarre but I've had the arguments over it. One guy even linked Baptist's with John the Baptist as if he founded the branch. Didn't say it outright, just suggested it.
Southern Baptists aren't alone in believing that their branch of Christianity is the *only* real way...but they are the most smug about it, or so it often seems to me. :D
Well, I don't know if 'smug' is the right word, but they do seem sure of themselves. Also they don't tend to take it well if you disagree with them about well anything. Doesn't sound like a problem? A mere difference of opinion? Heh, Southern Baptist friend of mine did joke that the possesion of a fire arm was required in order to join the church, and another assured me that the Gov should enforce 'morals' or let them do it. Their version of morals of course.
Originally posted by Whit
Actually, this is a Southern Baptist based misnomer. Catholics aren't Protestant. However, most Southern Baptist will tell you they are Christian, not Protestant. This is incorrect, actually they are both. Don't see the connection yet? It works like this. Baptist is not Protestant, (at least many of them claim) it is THE Christian religion. If Catholics are neither Baptist nor Protestant they aren't Christian.
I know this sounds bizarre but I've had the arguments over it. One guy even linked Baptist's with John the Baptist as if he founded the branch. Didn't say it outright, just suggested it.
Did I miss something? How the hell did Baptists and Protestants get in the convo.? I beg to differ w/ your logic here.
Christian =a believer in Jesus as the Christ, or in the religion based on the teachings of Jesus (Webster's def.)
Catholics fall under the def. of Christian, therefore Catholics are Christians. This has nothing to do w/ Baptists and Protestants.
Protestant = any Christian
not belonging to the Roman Catholic or Orthodox Eastern Church (Webster's def.)
Baptist = a member of a Protestant denomination practicing baptism of believers by immersion (Webster's def.)
Catholics, Protestants, and Baptists are all Christians.
Protestants and Baptists are NOT Catholics.
Originally posted by Elspode
I suppose it depends on your personal beliefs. My favorite version of reincarnation is that new souls are created all the time (how else to explain the increase in population?), some are recycled, and some attain perfection and go on to join the All.
That's what I was thinking, that new souls had to be created to explain the population increase. So, your soul keeps cycling through until it's perfect, then it no longer gets reincarnated. Isn't this like what the Hindu's or Buddhist's believe. I guess I could look it up.
What do you mean by going to join "the All"? What's "the All"? Or is that a typo?
The concept of The All, as I understand it, is that all things are inextricably intertwined. There are a lot of variations on the theme, but essentially, the universe itself is a kind of consciousness, a matrix upon which all energy flow is inscribed (I recommend reading the book "The Holographic Universe" for a very interesting and provocative treatment of this theory).
During corporal existence, our experiences and actions (which, let's face it, all involve the flow of energy) are imprinted upon that, but we have a separate identity (spirit? consciousness?) from The All. When we leave the physical plane of existence, our accumulated energies return to the "pool" of energies that is the universe, to either be returned for another shot at achieving "perfection" (whatever the hell that is), or at some point, to become integrated into that pool.
The notion of The All appeals to me on many levels, but I would really like an explanation of how our individual consciouness is extricated from the pool for our corporeal existences, then returned to the pool, then extricated again, and so on.
Again, I don't have the answers...just some thoughts.
[COLOR=indigo]Hey El, I was wondering about your opinion on whether or not "Ley Lines" exist, and your views on what they are.[/COLOR]
Originally posted by Elspode
The notion of The All appeals to me on many levels, but I would really like an explanation of how our individual consciouness is extricated from the pool for our corporeal existences, then returned to the pool, then extricated again, and so on.
Again, I don't have the answers...just some thoughts.
Yes, The All does sound interesting and a lot better than going to hell I might add.;) This concept might explain why some people "feel" or "sense" that they have lived on earth in another form. I mean like lived during another era, during another space in time. I have recently been watching a TV show called "Crossroads". I'm not sure if it airs where you live or if you have seen it, but this guy (can't remember his name) is a "medium" who validates messages sent from "the other side" to his guests who are on "this side". He gives them "a reading". I use to just click past this show thinking that it is a bunch of crap, a hoax if you will, but stopped one time to actually watch it. Of course it could be a huge hoax created for ratings, but if it isn't I find it quite interesting. Along w/ easing loved ones minds that their friends and family members are OK and are in a "safe place" now it seems to show that there *is* a "spiritual life" after death. I also find it interesting that none of these people who have passed appear to be "in hell". Now that could be all part of the hoax too, but if not it's nice to know your soul won't be burning in hell for eternity after your body has died. At the same time though there is no suggestion that these souls will be coming back, ie. reincarnated. Maybe only the "perfect" souls are able to come through and reveal themselves to "this side". These are all very interesting thoughts to ponder;)
Did I miss something? How the hell did Baptists and Protestants get in the convo.? I beg to differ w/ your logic here.
LuvBugz, if you go back you'll find that I was responding to something Juju said. Heck, I even quoted him. What his wife was saying, as I previously pointed out, is a common misconception among the Southern Baptists I've known. That's how they got involved.
I actually stated the idea to be incorrect in my post, even used the words misnomer, incorrect and bizzare. I assume you misunderstood me, and were seeking to inform instead of treating me like I'm stupid. Thanks for the definitions, but I was well aware of them. Please reread my post and notice what I said. This is not my logic, just some stupidity that I've argued over on many occasions. Also, I hate that particular misconception becasue it's based in ignorance about the origin of the religion these people follow.
So your soul gets recycled until it reaches perfection, then becomes part of "God". Like Syc.:D
Originally posted by Whit
LuvBugz, if you go back you'll find that I was responding to something Juju said. Heck, I even quoted him. What his wife was saying, as I previously pointed out, is a common misconception among the Southern Baptists I've known. That's how they got involved.
I actually stated the idea to be incorrect in my post, even used the words misnomer, incorrect and bizzare. I assume you misunderstood me, and were seeking to inform instead of treating me like I'm stupid. Thanks for the definitions, but I was well aware of them. Please reread my post and notice what I said. This is not my logic, just some stupidity that I've argued over on many occasions. Also, I hate that particular misconception becasue it's based in ignorance about the origin of the religion these people follow.
Whit, yes I realized you were responding to Juju's post, but I didn't understand the lack of logic in your reply and why Baptists and Protestants where being mentioned. I understand now that you were reiterating someone else's idea's to show how illogical they are and not your own. Just to make sure we're on the same page though....you do agree with my logical deduction that Catholics, along with Baptists and Protestants, are all Christians?
How do you know that Webster isn't the Devil?:eek:
Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
So your soul gets recycled until it reaches perfection, then becomes part of "God". Like Syc.
Yeah, and it only took 226 recyclings.
From LUVBUGZ
Just to make sure we're on the same page though....you do agree with my logical deduction that Catholics, along with Baptists and Protestants, are all Christians?
Oh, most certainly. In fact, I've tried to convince many Southern Baptist's of this. I think one or two may have actually listened to me.
Oh, by the by, I was speaking to a well traveled friend the on the subject and he says it isn't just a southern thing, he's heard it up north too. So maybe it's a Baptist, as opposed to Southern Baptist idea.
Syc, 226? Damn... I'm only on cycle 42...
Bruce, Webster the Devil? Could be, it would explain why he still looks like a 9 year old.
Hey Ep, about this "All" idea... I like the idea of reincarnation, but am I reading you right in thinking that the soul that comes out of the pool is the same one that went into it? Perhaps just reformatted for a new life?
Just curious 'cause I like the idea of getting to try again, but as an individualist I chafe at the idea of my mind/experiences getting mixed with those of others in some great metaphysical salad bowl.
Originally posted by LUVBUGZ
Hey Els, long time no see. Back to my questions. So, w/in your coven what deities to you "worship" and what do they symbolize?
Catholics say it is a sin to worship deities and you'll go to hell for doing so.
Els......remember this post I made? I mispoke here. I was thinking about "idols", but said "deities" instead. Hence, I asked what they symbolize to you. In Catholism, I think "God" is our deity, but idolatry is a sin. I still don't think Catholics consider the Saints as deities, more like I said before that they pay homage to them. I guess they 'worship' them, but they do not idolize them, but I may be incorrect in using the term 'worship'. I think I'm getting caught up in a semantics thing, but I do know for sure that IDOLS are NO,NO's. So, do Wiccans have idols that they worship? And, if so what do they symbolize to them?
Originally posted by LUVBUGZ
Els......remember this post I made? I mispoke here. I was thinking about "idols", but said "deities" instead. Hence, I asked what they symbolize to you. In Catholism, I think "God" is our deity, but idolatry is a sin. I still don't think Catholics consider the Saints as deities, more like I said before that they pay homage to them. I guess they 'worship' them, but they do not idolize them, but I may be incorrect in using the term 'worship'. I think I'm getting caught up in a semantics thing, but I do know for sure that IDOLS are NO,NO's. So, do Wiccans have idols that they worship? And, if so what do they symbolize to them?
Wiccans worship lots of idols...in my own coven, we pretty much use any god or goddess from any pantheon which suits our immediate need. I wouldn't term what we do as worship in the Christian sense. We are respectful to the icons when we ask for their participation, but since we aren't concerned about these deities/idols/etc screwing up our eternal souls, we don't worship in the normal sense. Our deities are a part of us, and we of them.
Does that answer your question? BTW, we have a spiffy collection of graven images in our coven room. I'll have to post a pic of them...
Originally posted by Whit
Hey Ep, about this "All" idea... I like the idea of reincarnation, but am I reading you right in thinking that the soul that comes out of the pool is the same one that went into it? Perhaps just reformatted for a new life?
Just curious 'cause I like the idea of getting to try again, but as an individualist I chafe at the idea of my mind/experiences getting mixed with those of others in some great metaphysical salad bowl.
Well, I'm no great authority. I'm only speaking from my own understanding/view of The All, but yeah, I think it is supposed to be the same soul. This supposedly explains past life experiences and such.
I'm rather puzzled about it all, too. It is the idea of coherent consciousness throughout that appeals to me as well. I think we all want to remain unique, ourselves, no matter what else happens.
I can't say that I have any past life memories, though. Then again, I haven't had any regressions or past life readings done, partially because so much of that kind of thing is flim-flam, and I am, above all, a logical sort of person.
Els, I'd love to see your pics. Post um when you get a chance, Please. My next question deals with spellwork and magic, which I note you spell differently than I do. So, what is this all about? These topics, along with the "external trappings" that we've discussed previously, are what most outsiders "fear" most about witchcraft. You know, people think that a spell was put on them and they are going to die or what not. So, what is spellwork and can you "put a spell" on a person so that bad things happen to them?
Originally posted by LUVBUGZ
Els, I'd love to see your pics. Post um when you get a chance, Please. My next question deals with spellwork and magic, which I note you spell differently than I do. So, what is this all about? These topics, along with the "external trappings" that we've discussed previously, are what most outsiders "fear" most about witchcraft. You know, people think that a spell was put on them and they are going to die or what not. So, what is spellwork and can you "put a spell" on a person so that bad things happen to them?
My own personal view of spellwork is that it is essentially the same thing as prayer, or the power of positive thought, etc. The path I follow specifically forbids me "putting a spell" on someone. I don't mess with anyone's anything unless I've been asked to do so. That being said, not
everyone who calls themselves witch follows this credo. Traditional witches do what they want, when they want. "And it harm none, do as ye will shall be the whole of the law" is a Wiccan precept, not a witchcraft precept. The Law of Three is similarly something which is not necessarily adhered to by anyone other than Wiccans.
So does that mean you should fear witches in general? Naw...not any more than you should fear anyone else. You, me, everyone - has the power to protect themselves from the actions of others, be those actions magickal or not. Be confident, be aware, stand by your own beliefs, and you'll be fine. Be hypocritical, be an asshole, etc...and bad things are going to happen to you, whether from a direct outside source or via Karma.
For me, everything is a choice. It is difficult to do *anything* without causing harm to *something*. It is something that we debate often in our community. In the end, it boils down to intent. Good intent is generally considered to better than bad intent. Intentional harm is bad, and you are going to get bad in return thrice over. Sometimes, one must judge the risks and do what they feel they have to do...but that is a very long and deep topic. Wiccan morality and ethics is a constantly evolving thing, I'm afraid.
I just like to sum it up by saying "I'm a good witch!"
I'll post pics of the ritual space when I have a little more time. Oh...and regarding the spelling difference between magic and magick...it is pretentious, first of all, and I admit that. In general, I think we use "magick" to differentiate between what we do in spellwork and those parlor tricks involving making ping pong balls disappear and women being sawed in half.
Quote by Elspode
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"And it harm none, do as ye will shall be the whole of the law" is a Wiccan precept, not a witchcraft precept. The Law of Three is similarly something which is not necessarily adhered to by anyone other than Wiccans.
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I guess I'm not sure the difference between Wicca and witchcraft. The "bad witches" for lack of a better term, if not Wiccan, then what are they? If I met someone who said they were a witch, how do I know if they are a "good" witch or a "bad" witch?
When you do spellwork is it like sitting in a circle and chanting/praying? Do you actually do specific spells? Sabrina comes to mind, looking in her big Spell Book, following some recipe for a spell she wants to perform.
And, if you know of any examples, what kind of spells do "bad" witches think they can perform?
If I met someone who said they were a witch, how do I know if they are a "good" witch or a "bad" witch?
That's easy, you can always tell by the dark sky and background music.:D
Check whether they appear in a puff of flame and red smoke or a pink bubble.
Funny guys (Bruce & Happy Monkey), but I'm asking the "good" witch, not you dorks:p
Everybody's got something to hide, 'cept me and monkey.:p
Originally posted by LUVBUGZ
I guess I'm not sure the difference between Wicca and witchcraft. The "bad witches" for lack of a better term, if not Wiccan, then what are they? If I met someone who said they were a witch, how do I know if they are a "good" witch or a "bad" witch?
Well, therein lies the rub. Wiccans are witches, but not all witches are Wiccan. Wicca is based upon ancient European belief systems and practices. Witchcraft existed a long time before Wicca. Wicca is a modern codification of older, indigenous religious practices and folk beliefs. How do you tell the difference between a good witch and a bad witch? The same way you tell the difference between a good person and a bad one, I suppose. If someone works some bad juju on you (no, not *you*, Juju), then you should assume they are bad. If they say they are Wiccan and have still worked some bad juju on you, then you might want to ask them to re-examine their path a bit. If you meet someone who says they are a witch, ask them if they are Wiccan. If not, that doesn't necessarily make them a "bad" witch, anyway. It just means they don't adhere to the same ethos as Wiccans. I know witches who aren't Wiccan and are spiffy fine folks.
When you do spellwork is it like sitting in a circle and chanting/praying? Do you actually do specific spells? Sabrina comes to mind, looking in her big Spell Book, following some recipe for a spell she wants to perform.
Sometimes we sit, sometimes we stand, sometimes you do spellwork alone, other times with the coven. Do we have spell books? Well, some of us, yes. We call it a Book of Shadows in our coven (you may sometimes hear it referred to as a Grimoire, although we tend to think of that as more like a recipe book), and it is simply the accumulation of rituals, spells, journaling, lessons, etc, that one accumulates in the course of being a witch. For us, our BOS is a personal item, not to be shared. We have a coven BOS which is a record of the rituals, spellwork, etc we've done as a coven.
Yes, we do specific spells...it is sort of difficult to do a general spell. That would be kind of like asking someone for something that will make you happy for your birthday...you *might* get something you want, but the chances are reduced.
And, if you know of any examples, what kind of spells do "bad" witches think they can perform?
Well, pretty much anything you can think of, I guess. I'm not aware of anyone having been turned into a toad or such, but I have known of people who did things which were not intended to enhance the lives of others. I guess "bad" witches probably think they can do a lot more than they actually can, overall. It is all relative. If, as I said, one is cognizant and takes reasonable care about one's own path and lives honorably, it is probably going to be pretty hard for a "bad" witch to screw with you very much in the first place. Let me try an example, here...Let's say you have a good witch working for you, and also a bad witch. Let's then say that neither of them like you very much (which is highly unlikely, I am sure .:) ) The good witch might do a spell to facilitate a promotion, so that they no longer have to work under you. A bad witch would work a spell intended to have you fired, become ill, or otherwise gotten out of their hair in some rather more nasty way.
It all comes down to intent and approach.
Originally posted by Elspode
Sometimes we sit, sometimes we stand, sometimes you do spellwork alone, other times with the coven. Do we have spell books? Well, some of us, yes. We call it a Book of Shadows in our coven (you may sometimes hear it referred to as a Grimoire, although we tend to think of that as more like a recipe book), and it is simply the accumulation of rituals, spells, journaling, lessons, etc, that one accumulates in the course of being a witch. For us, our BOS is a personal item, not to be shared. We have a coven BOS which is a record of the rituals, spellwork, etc we've done as a coven.
I want to make sure I'm reading this right. So aside from the coven BOS, each individual witch has a BOS that is private and kinda like a diary for them? So, what exactly is in the Grimoire Spell Book? I'm trying to figure out if you have a spell for specific things like say, becoming more beautiful. Where you go to the Grimoire and look up a potion for "how to beautify somebody", then make up some drink with Green tea, two drops of bat's blood, a pinch of virgin hair, and rose pedals; then drink it and "Poof" you're beautiful:confused: Kinda lame example, but I hope you get what I'm trying to ask:)
Originally posted by LUVBUGZ
I want to make sure I'm reading this right. So aside from the coven BOS, each individual witch has a BOS that is private and kinda like a diary for them? So, what exactly is in the Grimoire Spell Book? I'm trying to figure out if you have a spell for specific things like say, becoming more beautiful. Where you go to the Grimoire and look up a potion for "how to beautify somebody", then make up some drink with Green tea, two drops of bat's blood, a pinch of virgin hair, and rose pedals; then drink it and "Poof" you're beautiful:confused: Kinda lame example, but I hope you get what I'm trying to ask:)
Well, we are encouraged to have our own BOS, but not everyone keeps one. I personally do not have spells pre-written for varying purposes. When I have a desire or a need, I simply think about what I want/need (and why I think I want or need it) for awhile. Then, I start considering various aspects of spellwork, and how I can use the Elements, my magickal tools, candles, oils, herbs, moon phase, astrological portents, etc in some combination or combinations to further my spellwork.
It is really a bit too involved to go into in depth, because there are many, many angles and ways to approach spellwork. That's why we teach ourselves about so many different areas...well, one of the reasons, anyway.
I am woefully bad about creating specific spells and writing them out because, honestly, what works for me probably won't work for someone else. Spells are very personal, and it wouldn't do me any good to hand someone else a spell for a specific purpose...it probably wouldn't work for them at all. I just create spells as I need them. If there are any absolute, surefire spells that work for everyone who says the same words and uses the same substances, I haven't heard of them...and if anyone tells you otherwise, I'd be dubious.
When we do spellwork in coven, we discuss it all in advance and prepare each other for what we will be doing, things we will be visualizing, the herbs, etc, we will be using. In that way, we're all on the same page, working toward the same purpose. That sort of thing can't be accomplished by sending someone a bunch of words and instructions via email or something.
It is very common for young people to find their ways to witchcraft mailing lists, and ask people for specific spells. Usually, they'll get them, because, as I have consistently said, not everyone believes as I do or works as I do.
I have a friend who once was asked for a spell to change hair color (like in the movie "The Craft"...blech). His response? "First, light a candle that is as close to the same color as you want your hair to be. Concentrate on it with all your mind and soul. Then, get in the car, drive to Osco, pick up a hair dye kit of the appropriate color, and go home and make it happen."
The moral? *You* make things happen, and don't overlook the obvious and easy paths when they are right in front of you.
As for a grimoire, that would tend to contain things more along the lines of medicinal potions, or incense formulations, oil mixtures, candlemaking instructions, that sort of thing. Magickal potions tend to be concocted like spellwork (because without the spellwork, those things are just mixtures of stuff)...on an as needed basis, on a case by case basis. And, of course, this is only the way *I* do it. I'm sure someone, somewhere, has an extensive list of potions, spells, etc, and they'd be more than happy to give (or more likely *sell*) them to you. None of it will do you a bit of good, because the only way any of it works is by dint of your own will, your own intent, your own energies.
Hey Els, Dagney has started a new thread called Christianity and Paganism in the Philosophy forum and asked if we might continue our conversation over there. I think it's a good idea. Also, she has posted a letter there that pretty much touches on stuff we have been discussing here. It seems to me that whoever wrote this letter has basically the same spiritual views as you. I ask that you read it when you get a chance and make any comments you have about it. It has helped me a little with my understanding of Wicca and witches and I want to see if you agree with it and where you might have differing views about it:)
Hey Els, I'm back over here where it is safe. I just got my ass chewed over in the new Pagan Thread. It appears I have difficulty communicating w/ others. Funny, I didn't think *we* had any problem communicating. Oh well, goes to show how much I know. Anyway, I was curious how long have you been a witch? And, if any, what religion did you come from before Wicca? How often do you meet with your coven? Do you meet in the same place (like church, temple, etc.) or do you go to different places depending on what you want to "pray" about? I know you guys don't "pray", but you know what I mean.:)
Don't back off shy yet, LBZ...most of the folks here on The Cellar are pretty friendly...give 'em another chance.
I wasn't really anything before following my Wiccan path. I went to just about any and all churches in my younger days, trying to figure it all out. I found Christianity to be way too hypocritical and guilt-ridden, and just didn't ring true for me, so I drifted, not quite certain about anything except science for about twenty years. My best friend since HS (1974 grad) has been a witch for about twenty years now, and I was familiar with the path through her. I sort of slowly crept into the local Pagan community, and began writing for and editing the local Pagan publication that my friend published. She and I have also played music for over thirty years together, and a lot of that is traditional Celtic and Pagan-oriented stuff. I think I mostly woke up one day and said, "Hey...I think I'm Pagan."
Then I married a witch, and she started a coven after finishing her lengthy study under another high priestess, and so I've been working with my wife as her de-facto high priest for a few years now.
Our coven meets here at our house in a room in our basement set aside for just that purpose (go back to Philosophy and click on the link there for some pics). We meet every Sunday night (nothing odd in that, it was just the most convenient night, as it turned out). And we actually *do* pray, LBZ. Prayer is just a form of energy transfer, and it works. Doesn't matter to whom or what you pray, it is the *doing* that counts and causes things to change.
Anyway, go on back to Philosophy...no one is going to bite you, and if they do, I'll holler at 'em for you.
Originally posted by Elspode
I found Christianity to be way too hypocritical and guilt-ridden, and just didn't ring true for me, so I drifted, not quite certain about anything except science for about twenty years.
Not sure if I'm ready to enter the feeding frenzy over in Philosophy yet. I will for sure read anything you post over there though. I was just in the process of checking out your pics. Very interesting. Now I have tons of questions about all you're "graven" objects. After I finish looking at them I'll start asking, if you don't mind me doing so:)
About the quote above. This is exactly how I have felt about Catholicism. I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic school and the whole deal about being born a sinner, and everything I do is a sin and I'm going to hell, etc. basically made me feel like crap about myself. And I still feel like crap about myself even though I don't really practice the religion anymore. I finally broke away when I got old enough and brave enough to tell my dad I wasn't going to church anymore, which by the way wasn't all that long ago. My dad's the kind of guy you don't stand up to without expecting to get your ass kicked for doing so. For example, I feel weird even talking negatively about Catholicism, like God is going to cease my breathing when I go to bed tonight and I'll end up on like the ninth level in hell. I don't really know if you care to hear all this crap, I'm sure you have your own problems to deal with, but for some reason I feel confortable talking to a complete stranger about it, well you anyway, Els. Not sure why. Maybe because I know that you don't buy into all that stuff so I don't have to worry about you passing judgement on me for expressing my views. Well, before I totally spill my guts out, I'll wait to see if you don't mind me talking to you about this stuff. I'm going to go finish checking out your pics. Talk to ya later:)
Oh yea, when you say you didn't believe any anything but science for awhile, you mean science like experiments, not science like Scientology (sp) right?
You can run but you can't hide. Bwahahahahahahaha.
Yo, BUGZ. Don't take it personal, don't make it personal. You're not stupid, after all you bailed out of Catholicism which is smart.;)
Posting is like standing in front of the class. There will always be somebody throwing spitballs or trying to crack you up. If someone disagrees with your post, it's just their opinion. If they link to some source, it doesn't make it true either. That depends on the source.
There are no private conversations here. That would defeat the purpose of the site, to obtain as much input as possible for you to sort through and make up your own mind.
Me and God love you. Don't you, Syc.:haha:
I wasn't attacking you. I was actually trying to help out, believe it or not. Anyway, you can't escape me by going to another thread. I read them all.
I don't think anyone was trying to 'attack' her either. (I most certainly was not. )
However, I've come to the conclusion that it's probably a Mars thing. People are misunderstanding each other left and right.
Dagney
Well, I wasn't really trying to run and hide. I realize anything I post is open to public view or else I would just stop posting or send Els PM's instead. Yea, no one was attacking me, whatever.
I realize Juju that you have attempted to be the communication monitor in this and other threads and I appreciate you stepping in to try and help the flow of communication around here. I guess I am just more comfortable over here in the Birdbrain thread where not as many people know what were actually talking about.
Bruce, I thought we had a fairly decent communication thing going on in the Cellar and that you knew where I was coming from with my sarcasm and all. I don't know anymore maybe I was wrong.
All I can say is I realize that I have difficulty dealing with others and thought that by participating in the Cellar I could learn to do this more effectively due to the somewhat anonymous nature of a forum. If people don't like what I post then they don't have to read it and aren't forced to reply. So it boils down to the fact that I'll keep participating until UT decides that I've pissed off too many people and kicks me out.
LBZ, what I meant was Science, as in experiments and observations, yes. Scientology is a religion that is based on...well, Science Fiction, and that is just a little too poorly underpinned for my tastes. However, it is a perfectly valid path, as is any religious path. If I expect people to accept and tolerate my path, I must accept and tolerate theirs as well, even if that means those who worship aliens from Antares or Zebras from Zimbabwe...
As always, I'll do my best to answer any questions put to me regarding my point of view and my path, so fire away whenever you've got one.
And Dag, I agree...Mars retrograde is almost as bad as Mercury retrograde when it comes to screwing up the lines of communication.
I think you could probably piss on UT's lawn and he still wouldn't kick you out. He's a pretty nice guy. :)
The dogs, however, would be furious.
Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
Don't you, Syc.
Nah, I hate all of you for the most part.
I like most people on the Cellar...actually, I can only think of 2 that I really don't care for. LUVBUGZ has good potential...could win the Slang Award for Most Improved Poster if she pulls it together.
[COLOR=indigo]Maybe I'm just used to the folks here, but I didn't see anyone "yelling" or criticizing ya, Luv. You haven't been bitched at until Dave has taken a chunk out of your ass.[/COLOR]
And even Dave at his most furious is usually illuminating, if you can get past being pissed off about how it is said.
Now Radar, on the other hand...
I think that LB is a genuinely <i>good</i> writer. I know you probably think I'm just saying that to be nice, but I'm not. It seems like she gives up a lot of herself when she writes.
Actually Juju, I think that's the problem. She's so into whatever she's saying that any disagreement and she feels she's under attack. This leads to the round robin of "Quit attacking me!" "I'm not attacking you..." "Oh, sorry." That we've seen with Bugz in several threads. She'll be fun to have around once she lets us express our opinions without taking offense.
Kind of like when a christian friend tried to convert me, the conversation ended after she yelled, "No matter what you say you're not changing my faith!" To which I responded, "This isn't about your faith it's about mine." (Or lack thereof) She didn't speak to me for months after that and never tried to directly convert me again. Now before anyone thinks poorly of my friend, she knows that I am open to anyone who wants to convert me to their belief system. It just hasn't happened yet. Conversion I mean. But I digress.
What I'm saying is that Bugz needs some thicker skin. That way a lot of what has made her feel attacked would just bounce off. Other than Quzah I don't think anyone has been hard on her. And I don't think he was any harder on her than he'd be on anyone else.
Strange that passion can bring alienation, isolation and loneliness, usually self inflicted, because passion often spawns intolerance of those that don't share it.:(
Els, I've got my first round of questions. To start with, I see you have 4 areas for the 4 elements, I also note that you are using your air (yellow) area as your eastern corner due to lack of space. So, along w/ the 4 elements, you also have north, south, east, west represented too? If so, what types of things do you have there? Are the 4 seasons incorporated into the 4 elements, or do you have seperate areas for them as well? It seems you'd need a mansion to seperate all these things, if in fact you do?
I'm gonna space out my questions so maybe it will be easier for you to just copy my post and add in your answer right after each question. Just a thought:)
Starting with the air area:
What do you do in the black caldron? Is it for "special" potions?
What is the powdery stuff in the gold "bowl", what do you do with it?
What do the owls symbolize?
Is that the knife you cut air with? You may have already told me, but why do you cut air again?
What do you do with the stick, or does it represent something?
What is the medal hoop thingy?
What do you call the wood thing with the "star" on it, suffering from CRS=can't remember shit, what's the "star" called, pentagram? And, what do you use the wood thingy for?
Let me know if this is more detail than you want to get into? I'll move on to the next batch of questions after I hear from you. Thanks Els for you time and info.:biggrin:
Els, I've got my first round of questions. To start with, I see you have 4 areas for the 4 elements, I also note that you are using your air (yellow) area as your eastern corner due to lack of space. So, along w/ the 4 elements, you also have north, south, east, west represented too? If so, what types of things do you have there? Are the 4 seasons incorporated into the 4 elements, or do you have seperate areas for them as well? It seems you'd need a mansion to seperate all these things, if in fact you do?
***No, no mansion...just your basic suburban 1,000 square foot ranch home of the early 60's with a mostly finished basement. The four seasons are not represented specifically in the four corners, although you can infer relationships if you choose. The blue area represents Water (there's a bottle of water from the Gulf of Mexico brought back to us by a friend, a fossilized fish, a seashell, a small statue of two snowsuited children hanging the Moon, a blue candle in a crystal base and a blue battery-powered light to help us see in the darkened ritual room) the Red fire (a couple of red candles, a piece of purple granite, a Varga picture of a redheaded witchy gal, a rack of essential oils, a small crystal sculpture of a bear with a red heart, and an old pic of naked women)and the green, Earth (a large piece of gypsum crystal, a faux plant, a fossilized leaf, a crystal sphere).
Starting with the air area:
What do you do in the black caldron? Is it for "special" potions?
***The cauldron is just that...a cauldron. Cauldrons represent the womb, the vessel of creation. We use it for all kinds of things, including, sometimes, potions.
What is the powdery stuff in the gold "bowl", what do you do with it?
***Incense, which we make ourselves out of frankincense, myrrh and cinnamon. It is specifically for ritual purification. We make other incenses, including some for cleansing, healing, etc.
What do the owls symbolize?
***Owls are creatures of the air, and symbols of wisdom. The element of Air is associated with intellect, among other things.
Is that the knife you cut air with? You may have already told me, but why do you cut air again?
***Yes, that is my wife's athame. Cutting the air is not really what we do with it...it is just a saying we have to reassure people that our athames are not weapons. Athames work in much the same way as a wand, only with more emphasis. It directs our energies.
What do you do with the stick, or does it represent something?
***The stick is a wand.
What is the medal hoop thingy?
***That is called a Priestess Circlet. It is a headpiece sometimes worn by my wife during ritual symbolizing that she is the High Priestess of our coven.
What do you call the wood thing with the "star" on it, suffering from CRS=can't remember shit, what's the "star" called, pentagram? And, what do you use the wood thingy for?
***That is a pentacle, and we use it as the focal point on the altar for ritual processes. When we create the holy water and put the incense in the burner, we hold the vessel above the pentacle for a moment, then raise the vessel in honor of the God and Goddess.
Hope this has helped...
Thank You Els:) I really appreciate the time you take to answer all my "pesky" questions. I'll get my next batch ready;)
Els, I just read your eloquent and heart-felt tribute to Warren. I don't know who he is, but your words compel me to find out, and I love Tom Petty who you mentioned was a close friend of his. I do have a guestion though which didn't seem appropriate to post there as I didn't want to take attention away from Warren or your thread's purpose. When referring to his contribution's made before "meeting the Reaper face to face", I was wondering are you using that as just a common phrase, or as a witch do you believe that when we die we will all "meet the reaper"?
Originally posted by LUVBUGZ
I've always wondered about reincarnation. So, is there a set number of souls that just keep getting cycled through. If a baby is born is it a new soul or just one that has been reincarnated?
I believe that the typical though on reincarnation is that you may or may not come back as human. It's not a given. Thus, if you think about it, there really isn't any reason to create new souls.
Consider the number of animals, insects, humans, etc on the planet. Now give them each a soul. Ouch, I see all you cringing at that one. You don't like your food having a soul. Ok, ignore that, and consider this:
You die. An ant is hatched. An ant is squished. A bird cracks out of the shell. A school bus full of kids plunges into the river, killing all aboard. Not only is this horrible, but it's more newsworthy than if it had been a Greyhound full of elderly. That aside, a spider builds an egg sack...
Anyway, all digs aside, to try and put it logicly, that would work. There are tons of insects and such. Millions of things are born and die every day. You might be one of them. That's my genral understanding of how reincarnation works.
I can see where many will have a problem with this. I mean, not only does your food have a face, it has a soul. :D And I'm sure most people would be appalled at the thought of coming back as a slug.
Quzah.
Originally posted by LUVBUGZ
Els, I just read your eloquent and heart-felt tribute to Warren. I don't know who he is, but your words compel me to find out, and I love Tom Petty who you mentioned was a close friend of his. I do have a guestion though which didn't seem appropriate to post there as I didn't want to take attention away from Warren or your thread's purpose. When referring to his contribution's made before "meeting the Reaper face to face", I was wondering are you using that as just a common phrase, or as a witch do you believe that when we die we will all "meet the reaper"?
I was just coining a phrase. It is not a personal belief of mine. I'm not quite sure what to expect when we all make that change of state some day.
I recommend Warren Zevon's music highly. Although you don't know him, you might very well be familiar with the Linda Ronstadt song "Poor Pitiful Me", which was written by Warren.
Quzah you said a lot of things that don't make any sense to me whatsoever. I don't have any problem with the idea of my food having a soul. Why should that bother me?
For that matter if a slugs life would help a soul develop why would it be appaling?
Also, consider how much land has been paved over. Heck, consider how much the mosquito population suffered when New Orleans was built. A whole lot of swamp went away. I think as mankind has continued to build the numbers of critters has decreased dramaticaly. I'm just saying that sounds like a mighty big leap with that reincarnation theory. Of course it's also in the realm of pure speculation, so you can say toenail clippings contain the excess souls until they're needed and I can't say you're wrong.
By the by, I do eat meat and I kick spiders out of the house rather than kill them. In fact, I've got one spider right outside my door that I leave alone so that he can get the mosquitos before they get in. He does me a service, so I leave him be.
Originally posted by quzah
I believe that the typical though on reincarnation is that you may or may not come back as human. It's not a given. Thus, if you think about it, there really isn't any reason to create new souls.
Consider the number of animals, insects, humans, etc on the planet. Now give them each a soul. Ouch, I see all you cringing at that one. You don't like your food having a soul. Ok, ignore that, and consider this:
You die. An ant is hatched. An ant is squished. A bird cracks out of the shell. A school bus full of kids plunges into the river, killing all aboard. Not only is this horrible, but it's more newsworthy than if it had been a Greyhound full of elderly. That aside, a spider builds an egg sack...
Anyway, all digs aside, to try and put it logicly, that would work. There are tons of insects and such. Millions of things are born and die every day. You might be one of them. That's my genral understanding of how reincarnation works.
I can see where many will have a problem with this. I mean, not only does your food have a face, it has a soul. :D And I'm sure most people would be appalled at the thought of coming back as a slug.
Quzah.
Hey Quzah, I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm.....well......kinda, maybe......almost..... glad to see you're back. I sure got an ass-kicking while you were gone. I hadn't thought that there would be so many willing to step in where you left off:p. Of course, no one was "attacking" me, they were helping:rolleyes:, bless their souls. I love how you get in all the little digs, wish I could do that without getting a lecture on how to properly communicate in a forum, yadda, yadda, yadda. Anyhoo, I *personally* do not cringe at the thought of animals (fuzzy or otherwise) having souls. I sure hope they do. But, I seem to remember something in Hindu or Buddhism that each time you're reincarnated you move up the proverbial "food chain" so to speak. No offense ment towards you, you Vegan fool:p. That was sarcasim, not a personal attack on Quzah:rolleyes:. So, my point being that since we, you and me, are already at the human level I don't think we would come back as a slug. I like slugs, but I would hope I'm passed the slug level, assuming reincarnation exists. Oh, wait, actually I think I remember something about if you are "bad" as a human, then next time around you *do* go down a level or two depending on how "bad" you were. I really don't know if this is what reincarnationists think, but maybe someone else can shed some light on that.
Originally posted by Elspode
I was just coining a phrase. It is not a personal belief of mine. I'm not quite sure what to expect when we all make that change of state some day.
I recommend Warren Zevon's music highly. Although you don't know him, you might very well be familiar with the Linda Ronstadt song "Poor Pitiful Me", which was written by Warren.
Yes, I know that song, and I read Dave's post over there about "Werewolf in London". I know that one too, I love singing along to it. So I guess I do kinda know of him, but not about him or probably not too many other song of his. I have it on my to do list:)
Originally posted by Whit
Of course it's also in the realm of pure speculation, so you can say toenail clippings contain the excess souls until they're needed and I can't say you're wrong.
:::confused::: ... but that's not poetic ...
Originally posted by Whit
Quzah you said a lot of things that don't make any sense to me whatsoever. I don't have any problem with the idea of my food having a soul. Why should that bother me?
For that matter if a slugs life would help a soul develop why would it be appaling?
A number of beliefs only grant the ability to have a sould to humans. To even consider something as "lowly" as a slug posessing said item would be unthinkable.
Furthremore, if you give the ability to have a soul to everything, then it seems like you'd at least pause for a moment to consider the effect your actions are having.
Unless of course, you feel that "lower life forms", even when given a soul, are less worthy of life than you are, in which case you'd just continue on merrily as you do now.
But what do I know. I just speculate.
Quzah.
I was just pointing out that you seem to make a lot of odd assumptions. Like just 'cause I like burgers you seem to think I kill anything that crawls into my house. Plus slugs are kinda neat, never put salt on a single one of them. Wouldn't do that, it's not in me. My point is you really are preachy as hell no matter what you claim. You've made it perfectly clear that us meat eaters are heartless bastards on a murderous rampage. That's cool though. Just thought you should know it. Preach to me, if you make a good enough arguement I'll stop eating meat. It better be a mind blowing awesome reasoning though. I like cow.
By the by, I figure if I'm eating it, and since I don't eat anything still alive, it's soul would've moved on by the time I'm munching away.
pause for a moment to consider the effect your actions are having.
I think that's a good idea when we make alterations to the planet and its environment.
But when it comes to food, worms & fish, gazelles & lions and animals & I, will be on the same footing. :)
Originally posted by Whit
I was just pointing out that you seem to make a lot of odd assumptions. Like just 'cause I like burgers you seem to think I kill anything that crawls into my house. Plus slugs are kinda neat, never put salt on a single one of them. Wouldn't do that, it's not in me. My point is you really are preachy as hell no matter what you claim. You've made it perfectly clear that us meat eaters are heartless bastards on a murderous rampage. That's cool though. Just thought you should know it. Preach to me, if you make a good enough arguement I'll stop eating meat. It better be a mind blowing awesome reasoning though. I like cow.
By the by, I figure if I'm eating it, and since I don't eat anything still alive, it's soul would've moved on by the time I'm munching away.
There's a difference between
preaching[2] and recruitng. You can do whatever you like. It has no effect on me. I don't try and convince you that my way is better, rather, I treat you like an idiot^H^H^H^Her...you get the idea. ;)
I tend to generalize most comments.
Most people immediately try and justify their lifestyle upon learning I don't eat meat. (Because that's usually how the conversation starts. Me saying something like, "No, I don't eat meat.") If it's not that, then it's commonly something along the lines of "Well how can you possibly get enough protien?".
Because let's face it,
most people don't have a clue when it comes to what you actually need for nutrition. Want me to back up my claim? That's easy. Look at
most Americans. Would you like me to Super Size(TM) that?
Also consider that
most people have no qualms about squashing an insect. It isn't even something they think about. Really, you get bit by a mosquito, what happens? You smack it. It's almost reflex. No thought involved other than "ouch, you bastard".
That really is the problem. No one even considers what they're doing. It's just done out of habbit. Not all habbits are good, for you, for the enviornment, for whatever.
Quzah.
[Edit]Fixed the double-preaching typo.[/Edit]
Most people immediately try and justify their lifestyle upon learning I don't eat meat. (Because that's usually how the conversation starts. Me saying something like, "No, I don't eat meat.") If it's not that, then it's commonly something along the lines of "Well how can you possibly get enough protien?".
Kind of funny, I get the same type of response when I tell people I'm not christian. The only difference is that it's more like, "Aren't you worried about burning in hell?" God, people are stupid. I think we, at least, agree on that...
As far as treating me like an idiot goes, why not? I'll lift an Orange Juice in you honor. Later.
It seems to me that we value the life of other humans so that we'll get the same consideration in return if we're ever in a time of need. Given that, what possible benefit would I get from valuing the life of a mosquito or cow? I don't expect either of them is likely to rescue me from a burning building.
No, a cow won't save you from a fire. It does taste pretty good after it's been over a fire though. Thus, we do value a cow and take care of them and raise them. We don't eat mosquitos though. I guess that's why we gas them to death.
Originally posted by juju
It seems to me that we value the life of other humans so that we'll get the same consideration in return if we're ever in a time of need. Given that, what possible benefit would I get from valuing the life of a mosquito or cow? I don't expect either of them is likely to rescue me from a burning building.
So you only value something if it gives you something in return? Interesting. I suppose that is the whole concept of value though, isn't it? If you don't get anything out of it, it's worthless? I get nothing other than an armfull of poison from mosquitos, yet I acknowledge their right to exist. Furthermore, I must have assigned some value to it, for I got out of my way to avoid smashing them or what not. (IE: The spider example, I catch and release rather than just squash them.)
I get nothing from the spiders, other than the occasional bite while I sleep, or a nifty web to look at, and yet, I let them go.
I often wonder if people had to kill their own food if they'd all be so eager to wolf down a burger. I doubt it. Oh sure, there are some who it wouldn't phase. Some probably who would even enjoy it. However, I bet a number of them would change their eating habbits.
I don't eat animals because there is no need, and because I have attributed value to their existance. It is not my place to tell them they don't have the right to live or to be used for my advantage.
Quzah.
I think the more annoying factor would be the extra work involved in feeding the cow while it's alive and processing the meat after it's dead. But people used to have to do that, didn't they? Back on farms? And they still ate meat.
Originally posted by quzah
...change their eating habbits...
Quzah, can't help but point out that there is only one "B" in habits. Since this is the third time you have mispelled it, I'm assuming it's not a typo:)
Originally posted by Whit
By the by, I figure if I'm eating it, and since I don't eat anything still alive, it's soul would've moved on by the time I'm munching away.
I tend to agree with this point, Whit. It kinda lends credence to my position against animal abuse/cruelty. Example: Assume the cow has a soul. Shoot, after thinking this out it isn't actually logical. I was going to say as long as the cow is alive and we don't hurt/abuse it, we are not harming it's soul. I was going to jump from there to say so it's OK to eat it after it is dead and the soul has left, but this is just wrong because in order to eat it *someone* must kill it, hence "kill" it's soul. Even if *I'm* not the one doing the killing, *someone* is and since I enjoy the benefits of the dead, soul-less cow, I am in effect also responsible for the "killing" of it's soul. Looks like I might have just scored one for the Vegans. I eat meat, but I have to agree with Quzah, if I had to kill it myself, I'd become a vegetarian real quick. That's *me* though. I know lot's of peeps who love hunting and would probably rather kill their own "meat", rather that get it from the grocery store.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by quzah to juju
So you only value something if it gives you something in return? Interesting. I suppose that is the whole concept of value though, isn't it? If you don't get anything out of it, it's worthless? I get nothing other than an armfull of poison from mosquitos, yet I acknowledge their right to exist. Furthermore, I must have assigned some value to it, for I got out of my way to avoid smashing them or what not. (IE: The spider example, I catch and release rather than just squash them.)
[color=red]I don't get much out of people, I guess maybe that's why I don't value most of them too much, but at the same time I don't kill any of them either. I, sometimes begrudgingly, acknowledge their right to exist.
Quzah, mosquitos don't inject "poison" into you. They release an anticoagulant to stop your blood from clotting, then they feed by sucking your blood. However, they can transmit disease during this process (ex. West Niles virus). I'm not suggesting you start killing mosquitos, but be aware that they do pose a risk to your health.[/color]
I get nothing from the spiders, other than the occasional bite while I sleep, or a nifty web to look at, and yet, I let them go.
[color=red]Most times I don't even bother moving the spiders outside, they just hang out in the corners.[/color]
I often wonder if people had to kill their own food if they'd all be so eager to wolf down a burger. I doubt it. Oh sure, there are some who it wouldn't phase. Some probably who would even enjoy it. However, I bet a number of them would change their eating habbits.
[color=red]As a meat eater and an animal lover, I've thought about this many times. Those two terms seem to be diametrically opposed and at times I find some issues difficult to deal with. I do agree with you on this and I fully acknowledge the fact that if I had to kill my own food, I'd quickly become a vegetarian, or vegan rather.[/color]
I get nothing from the spiders, other than the occasional bite while I sleep, or a nifty web to look at, and yet, I let them go.
Not true, those spiders eat a tremendous amount of biting insects that carry disease. That spider could save your life.:eek:
[COLOR=indigo]OooOo now I'm mad...had a whole long reply and went to submit it and got a "page can't be displayed". Dammit.
To sum up one of my better posts:
If each individual had to raise/innoculate/feed/slaughter/clean their own cow/chicken/pig to eat meat or raise/water/harvest their own grain in order to eat vegan, we'd have alot of starving folks in the country, and culture would be vastly different.
If every family had to maintain their own farm in order to eat, there would be no metropoli, no urban sprawl. Dad wouldn't be able to go to the city and be a technology advisor or broker or anything else, because he'd be too busy fixing the tractor or doing TB tests on the animals.
If it came down to it, would I kill a cow to eat it's meat? Most Definitely. Do I want to? No. Am I going to go to the butcher tonight and pick up a package of steak? Absolutely. Am I an animal lover? Yes I am.
Being an animal lover does necessarily mean not eating meat.
[/COLOR]
From Bugz:
...in order to eat it *someone* must kill it, hence "kill" it's soul.
I think you mispoke here. You wouldn't be "killing" the soul, just releasing it. Liberating the soul, if you will. Viva la liberation!
Agreed, Whit...if indeed 'soul' does exist, then by definition, it is a separate entity from the body which houses it while on this plane.
Originally posted by LUVBUGZ
Quzah, can't help but point out that there is only one "B" in habits. Since this is the third time you have mispelled it, I'm assuming it's not a typo:)
Originally posted by LUVBUGZ
Quzah, mosquitos don't inject "poison" into you. They release an anticoagulant to stop your blood from clotting, then they feed by sucking your blood. However, they can transmit disease during this process (ex. West Niles virus). I'm not suggesting you start killing mosquitos, but be aware that they do pose a risk to your health.
Thank you Queen Anal. I acknowledge your nit-picks.
The fact of the matter is, a mosquito bite itches. A spider bite itches. Thus, they are similar. It's much simpler to say you're poisoned by a mosquito than it is to say "I had an anticoagulant injected into me through the mosquito's proboscis, and as a result, I have a swolen bump on my arm that itches like a spider bite would."
Now run along and play.
Quzah.
Originally posted by Whit
I think you mispoke here. You wouldn't be "killing" the soul, just releasing it. Liberating the soul, if you will. Viva la liberation!
I wouldn't say I mispoke, I just couldn't put into words what I was really trying to say, that's why I put it in quotes, I was trying to say something like kinda killing it, but not really which makes no sense at all. I know the soul wouldn't be killed, but it seems like if your killing the soul's vessel that in some way you would be at least "harming" the soul. That doesn't really sound right either, but if I put it a different way, you might kinda get what I'm trying to say. New version: So, if killing the cow is simply releasing the soul and not "harming" it, then why would it NOT be OK for me to kill a person and say well I was simply liberating their soul?
Originally posted by quzah
Thank you Queen Anal. I acknowledge your nit-picks.
The fact of the matter is, a mosquito bite itches. A spider bite itches. Thus, they are similar. It's much simpler to say you're poisoned by a mosquito than it is to say "I had an anticoagulant injected into me through the mosquito's proboscis, and as a result, I have a swolen bump on my arm that itches like a spider bite would."
Now run along and play.
Quzah.
Hey I really like the "Queen Anal" title, that's the closest I'll ever get to royality, may I use it as my new tag line? Re: mosquito bites......OK, Quzah, no need for hostilities. I was only trying to edify you, not moronize you (don't bother dictionary.com-ing this one I just made it up:biggrin: ). BTY, swollen has two L's:p
Originally posted by LUVBUGZ
New version: So, if killing the cow is simply releasing the soul and not "harming" it, then why would it NOT be OK for me to kill a person and say well I was simply liberating their soul?
Well spoken. That's exactly the point I was attempting to make. If everything has a soul, then the only difference in killing a person versus a mosquito is the value attached to the person versus the value attached to the mosquito.
Thus, if I don't value you at all, it there should be no penalty for me killing you. I mean really, that's exactly what people do every day. You assign a lesser value to indirectly killing a ___ and eating its 'product' than you do 'suffering' the inconvenience of going without.
Quzah.
From Bugz:
So, if killing the cow is simply releasing the soul and not "harming" it, then why would it NOT be OK for me to kill a person and say well I was simply liberating their soul?
Because it's illegal ya big silly. Actually, it's illegal to kill the cow too except in specific circumstances.
In the mosquito example, the mesquito's family won't hunt your ass down and kill you in return. A little fact of life now boy and girl, we are animals. We're just on top of the food chain. We eat, we shit, and we die, just like they do. You're both so busy being holier-than-thou that you forget the only reason we don't live in caves and hide from carnivors is we got smart enough to kill their asses. What's more, we will continue to do so, as a part of nature. Not because we are better than them, as your arrogant asses suggest, but because we are them. We just kill better.
This goes up too, and includes killing our own when they don't follow pack rules. So go ahead. Kill someone to prove it's no different. See ya on deathrow.
Originally posted by Whit
We're just on top of the food chain. We eat, we shit, and we die, just like they do. You're both so busy being holier-than-thou that you forget the only reason we don't live in caves and hide from carnivors is we got smart enough to kill their asses. What's more, we will continue to do so, as a part of nature. Not because we are better than them, as your arrogant asses suggest, but because we are them. We just kill better.
Thanks for reminding me that I need to type as if I'm speaking to the narrow-minded masses. Let me state this slowly and plainly so you can understand, since you've obviously missed the vein of this thread.
You can have it one of two ways, not both.
First, the "soul" view of things, as it's been discussed in this thread.
1) We are assuming or granting all things souls.
2) We were speaking of reincarnation, in that, you may possibly be coming back as
anything.
3) We've determined that the only difference in killing a human as opposed to any other animal is the personal value placed on it.
Now, if that is given, then it would be stupid to kill anything, since they would all have the same value. Killing a mosquito would be like killing your brother.
You can modify this slightly, and give everything a soul, but give them different "levels" of souls. Thus, when you reincarnate, you either move up a level or down. Here again it would seem foolish to go around killing things, since this may affect how your soul evolves.
You can modify this even more, and remove souls from everything except humans. In which case, what does it matter if I go and kill your dog? I'll pay you the $300 bucks he cost and we'll call it even. I mean, it's just a soul-less piece of flesh. I was hungry. No big loss. And hell, if it was a pound-puppy, you made a few bucks off my meal.
You can modify this more, and remove souls from humans, in which case we're just "smart animals". In which case, who gives a shit what I kill. They're all equal. Seriously, if we're all just animals, then what of "morality"? There is no point, since we're all just beasts. It's survival of the fittest. Thus, if I have better firepower, I can simply terminate all of you and it'll make me leader of the pack, if I so choose to leave any of you alive.
Basicly we as people just pick whatever one we we think fits best. Take your pick.
Quzah.
Originally posted by Whit
Because it's illegal ya big silly. Actually, it's illegal to kill the cow too except in specific circumstances.
In the mosquito example, the mesquito's family won't hunt your ass down and kill you in return. A little fact of life now boy and girl, we are animals. We're just on top of the food chain. We eat, we shit, and we die, just like they do. You're both so busy being holier-than-thou that you forget the only reason we don't live in caves and hide from carnivors is we got smart enough to kill their asses. What's more, we will continue to do so, as a part of nature. Not because we are better than them, as your arrogant asses suggest, but because we are them. We just kill better.
This goes up too, and includes killing our own when they don't follow pack rules. So go ahead. Kill someone to prove it's no different. See ya on deathrow.
Fuckin' A Whit, I thought we were past the name calling and all the other BS you and others have been on my ass about. Here I am replying to your post, clarifying my point for you in a civil, calm manner, not "attacking" in any way and look at the response I get from *you*. You condescendingly refer to me as a "girl", which I am not, I'm probably older that you are. Trying to enlighten me with the revelation that "we" are animals too, when I have made this point numerously in the Big Pig abortion. You call me an "arrogant ass", which I might point out is completely uncalled for and IS most definitely beyond any reasonable doubt a PERSONAL ATTACK on me. And talk about "holier-than-thou", just because we (you and I) have a slightly differing view on a issue, which I thought we were disscussing in an adult manner, you now seem to be recanting your earlier claim that *you *, so rightous and moral, believing that all humans deserve the right to live, who would NEVER suggest that I deserve to die on a collapsing bridge would now find glee in me being sent to DEATHrow for simply disagreeing with your ideas on a particular issue. Did you just have another long, stressful day at work or are your true colors just oozing out onto the page:confused: I do believe you have taken my example and twisted it to what you wish I meant so that you could then use it to justify your rude behavior towards me. I was simply throwing the thought out there in an attempt to convey my idea that...assuming both cow and human have a soul (which was the premise of this discussion), and in killing either of them the soul is neither harmed nor killed, but rather simply liberated it from it's earthly vessel (which was your idea, not mine), then how is killing the cow any different from killing the human? I'm not saying it is or isn't, I'm simply posing the question? Relax Whit, calm down and take a deep breath. No one is attacking you, I'm trying to help you, you seem to be so set in your ideas that you are unwilling to accept that some else views things differently than you do. I mean isn't that the whole point of a public forum? To maybe look at things in a different way than you have been. Everyone has a right to their opinion and were are all there to discuss, debate, maybe learn something, or to think about things in a way we have never thought to view them before.
Hey Quzah, you never said if it was OK for me to use the "Queen Anal" thing? I really like it, it fits me perfectly;)
Originally posted by LUVBUGZ
Hey Quzah, you never said if it was OK for me to use the "Queen Anal" thing? I really like it, it fits me perfectly;)
Whatever floats your boat. Or to be on topic, whatever frees your soul. :blunt:
Quzah.
Originally posted by LUVBUGZ
So, if killing the cow is simply releasing the soul and not "harming" it, then why would it NOT be OK for me to kill a person and say well I was simply liberating their soul?
Because, most people like humans more than they like cows. They've designed their laws and morality appropriately.
Yeah, I'd say you misspoke.
From Quzah:
3) We've determined that the only difference in killing a human as opposed to any other animal is the personal value placed on it.
Quzah, first off you put forth this notion. Nobody except Bugz actually excepted it. Hasn't really been discussed. Sorry, if you didn't read the thread.
Also, one more time, I'm fine with the idea of eating the cow that housed my brothers soul. I've already said I don't see where that would matter. It's you that decided that this would be a problem. That's fine if it's a problem for you, but I don't care. You seem to think you made a perfect point here but ya didn't. You see, if someone did believe in reincarnation then, would likely believe that person is meant to live as a cow, and even die as one. Before you bring up the Hindu's not eating cows for an example you need to look in to it, there's more to it than that. End of story. It was my brothers turn to develop the steak on mytable and I'll enjoy it and appreciate him for it.
Bugz, as far as the "arrogant ass" and "girl" thing go, I also forgot you are the only one allowed to joke with others. I was actually chuckling after I wrote that. But you what? you can take it as an attack. You take being asked how the weather is as an attack. Whatever. I've tried to be cool with you Bugz, I really have. Seems to me that you can't be joked with and you can't discuss opinions without getting upset. See, I don't care though. Get upset, but try to make a valid point once in a while. Let's see what you've had to say today...
Trying to enlighten me with the revelation that "we" are animals too, when I have made this point numerously in the Big Pig abortion.
Then why didn't you listen to yourself?
Hmmm, now we have more of the "I've been responded too, I'm under attack!" stuff we all expect out of all your posts...
From Bugz:
NEVER suggest that I deserve to die on a collapsing bridge would now find glee in me being sent to DEATHrow for simply disagreeing with your ideas
Actually, I suggested you would be sent to deathrow for
killing a human being, sorry if you didn't read you own post.
then how is killing the cow any different from killing the human?
Sigh, have you ever read a post before responding? Clearly not this time. Here, I'll repost it for ya so you don't have to go back.
From me:
This goes up too, and includes killing our own when they don't follow pack rules.
So you see, I'm suggesting the difference is that you will go to deathrow. Lot's of luck actually reading this post this time.
By the by, you have changed my opinions. I really hadn't thought about it before, but you and Quzah have convinced me that eating animals is natural and right. It should be done, I am now convinced. So thanks.
Quzah, are you saying that without souls, there is no morality?
Originally posted by juju
Because, most people like humans more than they like cows. They've designed their laws and morality appropriately.
Yeah, I'd say you misspoke.
Say what you will juju, but do not believe I misspoke, I was simply conveying my idea.
Well Whit if what you wrote was humor, I'm sorry that I didn't find it funny. So now I can't read or communitcate, great. I never said I fully except Quzah's notions, but at least I can discuss them without resorting to your level. As I've said before I eat meat too, so it's not like I'm defending Quzah and his vegan view of things, but I'm simply writing out my thoughts and in doing so am able to see where my own logic has flaws. At least I can accept that my thinking isn't perfect and continue discussing issues to try and mold my ideas, where as you are set in your ideas and are unwilling to even consider that they may be flawed as well. BTY, I'm glad I have solidified your idea that eating animals is natural and right. That's what were all here for, to put our views to the test and decide through discussion and communication whether we still believe in them or if we have decided to alter them a bit after seeing what others ideas are and the basis for their differing views.
I just want to say, once again, that everyone needs to listen to The Arrogant Worms'
"Carrot Juice is Murder", and get a little perspective. Then, afterward, eat whatever the hell you want and let everyone else eat what they want.
How do we know that vegetables don't have feelings? What about all that stuff about plants having an energy field, and responding to music, and kind words?
Maybe we should all just starve and die in moral perfection
Is eating animals natural and right? IMO probably not, and certainly not for me personally. (Although I recently dated a guy who is allergic to beans and had to chuckle at the irony of that.)
Is it necessary? Not at all to the extent that it's done.
Do one's eating habits depend simply on the value they attribute to other lifeforms? Abso-fucking-lutely.
It is all about values. People eat meat because they like it and they value their desire for over the life of the animal. That's pretty much the conclusion that
this thread came to.
Originally posted by LUVBUGZ
Say what you will juju, but do not believe I misspoke, I was simply conveying my idea.
merriam-webster.com defines misspoke as:<blockquote><i> to express (oneself) imperfectly or incorrectly</i></blockquote>Even you agreed that what you actually said makes no sense and is not what you meant. Given the mind-numbing train of thought you subjected us to when trying to think through your own words, I think it's pretty safe to say you misspoke.
It's okay, though. I personally do it all the time.
Originally posted by Whit
Quzah, first off you put forth this notion. Nobody except Bugz actually excepted it. Hasn't really been discussed. Sorry, if you didn't read the thread.
Yeah god forbid I actaully stick to my own theory in a single thread. Perhaps I should just change my mind with every post. I mean really, why bother thinking about any ideas over any length of time? Let's all just completely change our train of thought from post to post. That way no one will have a clue as to what the fuck is going on.
Quzah.
Originally posted by Elspode
How do we know that vegetables don't have feelings? What about all that stuff about plants having an energy field, and responding to music, and kind words?
Maybe we should all just starve and die in moral perfection
So eat fruit. Problem solved. Gee that was tough.
Quzah.
Originally posted by bmgb
Is eating animals natural and right? IMO probably not, and certainly not for me personally. (Although I recently dated a guy who is allergic to beans and had to chuckle at the irony of that.)
Is it necessary? Not at all to the extent that it's done.
Do one's eating habits depend simply on the value they attribute to other lifeforms? Abso-fucking-lutely.
It is all about values. People eat meat because they like it and they value their desire for over the life of the animal. That's pretty much the conclusion that this thread came to.
Well at least some one other than myself knows what the fuck is happening in this thread.
Quzah.
Most of the animals we eat would not exist in the first place if we didn't want to eat them.;)
Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
Most of the animals we eat would not exist in the first place if we didn't want to eat them.;)
So everything is better of existing than to have never been created? I'm afraid I must disagree.
Quzah.
Originally posted by quzah
So eat fruit. Problem solved. Gee that was tough.
Quzah.
What, fruit isn't a part of plants? What if that is the moral equivalent of just eating a little bit of the cow and letting it go on living as an amputee?
In case it isn't clear, I'm not taking this thread at all seriously. If I was, I would say something in agreement with the omnivore thing, and that soul doesn't enter into the whole thing. Humans are animals. I think we prove that every day. Animals have to eat. If animals have souls, then they go where they are supposed to and do what they should, whether we eat them, they die of old age, or end up sticking out of the grille of a Buick.
We as humans are supposed to be above animals, because we are rational beings...hah! War is rational? Mass consumption of natural resources while spewing pollution into our own environment is rational? I could go on, but why? We aren't even as smart *as* most animals when it comes to trying to live in balance with our world, and they eat each other all the time.
Therefore, since animals are smarter than I am anyway, who am I to try and behave differently? (back to not taking it seriously again).
Originally posted by Elspode
What, fruit isn't a part of plants?
Yeah...isn't eating fruit the equivalent of stealing a child?
Oh...and, before I forget...Quzah, thanks for the response redolent of sarcasm, and containing the obvious inference that you are intellectually and morally superior to the rest of us. I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say that being put in our places by you is both entertaining AND enlightening! :D
[COLOR=indigo]OK, So let's go one more step:
Our vegan (and lesser vegetarian) friends believe it's wrong to eat meat. Perhaps one reason is because the animal in question has a soul.
Therefore, they choose to eat vegetables, fruits, legumes, and other non-meat products of the plant variety and source.
I submit to you that plants have souls too.
Now extend your argument. Is it still ok to eat plants?
Now what do you eat?
[/COLOR]
I was told by a very smart anthropologist professor that fruit co-evolved with primates as a seed-dispersal mechanism. Plants help us, we help them, and everybody's happy.
Originally posted by juju
merriam-webster.com defines misspoke as:<blockquote><i> to express (oneself) imperfectly or incorrectly</i></blockquote>Even you agreed that what you actually said makes no sense and is not what you meant. Given the mind-numbing train of thought you subjected us to when trying to think through your own words, I think it's pretty safe to say you misspoke.
It's okay, though. I personally do it all the time.
Thank you for the def. juju, it appears I misspoke after all:)
Originally posted by juju
I was told by a very smart anthropologist professor that fruit co-evolved with primates as a seed-dispersal mechanism. Plants help us, we help them, and everybody's happy.
This is a good point, juju. I agree.:)
So, as man evolved in harmony with nature, before becoming civilized, we became carnivorous, and helped nature by thinning the herd.
Now that we are no longer in ecological balance with the planet, we must develop and maintain our own herds, much as we must plant our own orchards and fields of vegetables.
Again, a sort of harmony, no?
Originally posted by quzah
So everything is better of existing than to have never been created? I'm afraid I must disagree.
Quzah.
Huh??:confused:
I think Quzah is saying that perhaps never having been born at all is preferable to having been born and subsequently eaten.
Oh, "better OFF existing".
Naw, we'll have to disagree on that. I think that cow is content with a couple years since it's not cognizent of any alternatives.
BTW Els, did you know 150 odd posts back there's a bird on your head?;)
Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
Oh, "better OFF existing".
Naw, we'll have to disagree on that. I think that cow is content with a couple years since it's not cognizent of any alternatives.
BTW Els, did you know 150 odd posts back there's a bird on your head?;)
And yet, you could inflict enough pain on someone for them to wish they'd never been born. At which point in time, in their mind, it would be better to have never been born.
Quzah.
That only applies to people. If cows think that way, they've never told me.
For the record Quzah, a couple of pages back my point was that you had made the list for all of us. You were the only one that was in on that idea, so it shouldn't have made the list.
To catch up now.
From Quzah:
...you could inflict enough pain on someone for them to wish they'd never been born.
I agree with the statement as it stands, but are you suggesting that the cows are being put through that level of torment?
Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
That only applies to people. If cows think that way, they've never told me.
That's absurd. You're telling me you can't imagine an animal in so much pain that it would rather not be alive? Yes, this is slightly different than "not being born", but the end result is the same.
Originally posted by Whit
I agree with the statement as it stands, but are you suggesting that the cows are being put through that level of torment?
I didn't say they're being tormented. However, since you mention it; actually it's not worth the trouble. You're kidding yourself if you think slaughter houses and farms care that their animals are "happy".
The both of you are so intentionaly closed minded it's absurd. You justify whatever you need to. I really don't care.
Quzah.
Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
BTW Els, did you know 150 odd posts back there's a bird on your head?;)
Yup, and it is a meat-eating bird at that...
Dude, first off, we've been no more insulting to you than you have been to us. That's the norm for the cellar. You've been here long enough to know that and deal with it. It's late so I'm just gong to assume you're tired.
Now, no you didn't say tormented. You did suggested that they would "have enough pain inflicted to wish they'd never been born." I didn't say slaughter houses were happy places. I just don't think they take the time and effort to inflict the kind of pain you're talking about. It's much easier to kill an animal quickly and painlessly. Especially when they are as big as a cow.
By the by, I lived by a dairy as a child, the man that owned the place made a point of keeping the cattle healthy with plenty of pature to roam and food to eat. What more does a cow need to be happy? Oh yeah, they had a couple of places to go for shelter against inclement weather, though they never did, not even in a hail storm. They really did seem, well content.
Closed mind only to your fantasy. Reality is always considered. You keep trying to convince me 1+1=3, and it's just not so.:)
[COLOR=indigo]And here I thought you guys would jump all over the "plants have souls" post.
How disappointing that the only one to respond was Elspode, who was looking forward to the discussion, too.[/COLOR]
Originally posted by OnyxCougar
[COLOR=indigo]And here I thought you guys would jump all over the "plants have souls" post.
[/COLOR]
I guess, as has been said here many times, it's all speculation. I myself don't have any solid beliefs about whether humans or other animals (or plants for that matter) have souls. I WANT to believe, though. ;)
I eat what I need to survive. If plants have souls, then I am very sorry. I'm not going to curl up and die because because plants have souls. (And I don't know about that fruitarian business, maybe I'll read up on it.)
And a lot of people will not stop eating meat on the speculation that animals might have souls.
I believe that I keep my soul healthy by feeding it with the souls of others.
Ah Ha! I knew it. UT has stolen our souls.
Did they taste like chicken?:confused:
Originally posted by Undertoad
I believe that I keep my soul healthy by feeding it with the souls of others.
Dr. Van Helsing, paging Dr. Van Helsing... please report to the Cellar immediately! I just wanted to say that I put this sig line up before this discussion floated anywhere near souls...
Quzah said
That's absurd. You're telling me you can't imagine an animal in so much pain that it would rather not be alive? Yes, this is slightly different than "not being born", but the end result is the same.
What I'm telling you is I can imagine an animal in so much pain they would rather not be. The concept of alive and dead means nothing to them. All they know is being eaten or not being eaten.
When a lion chases the herd, they all try to avoid him. But once the lion brings one down, what does the rest of the herd do? They stop, watch for a minute to make sure the lion is done chasing, then business as usual. They're not being eaten so they eat. They don't have a memorial service for their fallen comrade.
They really don't care about anything but the moment. There is no past or future in their conscious thought. They have memory of routes and food sources but you'll never convince me they can't wait to get back to XYZ because it was pretty there.
Domestic animals don't even have the lion to keep them on their toes.
The basic domestic cow is never threatened or in real danger short of lightning or a motor vehicle and they aren't aware of that till it's too late. The lead pretty bucolic lives until we eat them.
Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
The concept of alive and dead means nothing to them. All they know is being eaten or not being eaten.
What are you fucking stupid all of this sudden? They have no concept of death and dying? Get real. That's got to be the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Animals have no concept of dying... You truely boggle the mind.
So much for that whole survival instinct theory huh?
Give me a hit of whatever it is you're smoking.
Quzah.
Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
What I'm telling you is I can imagine an animal in so much pain they would rather not be. The concept of alive and dead means nothing to them. All they know is being eaten or not being eaten.
When a lion chases the herd, they all try to avoid him. But once the lion brings one down, what does the rest of the herd do? They stop, watch for a minute to make sure the lion is done chasing, then business as usual. They're not being eaten so they eat. They don't have a memorial service for their fallen comrade.
They really don't care about anything but the moment. There is no past or future in their conscious thought. They have memory of routes and food sources but you'll never convince me they can't wait to get back to XYZ because it was pretty there.
Domestic animals don't even have the lion to keep them on their toes.
The basic domestic cow is never threatened or in real danger short of lightning or a motor vehicle and they aren't aware of that till it's too late. The lead pretty bucolic lives until we eat them.
I don't agree with you here, Bruce. I have seen video of lions trying to kill a baby elephant and the entire elephant herd forms a circle around the baby in an attempt to prevent the lions from killing it. I've also seen where a mother elk/caribou/moose will defend her young from predators by trying to gore them and kick them. Also, if a member of a wolf pack is killed or dies the rest of the pack is very agitated, revisits the dead body, and mourns their loss by howling. As far as domestic animals, one of my cats sat meowing on the sidewalk where one of her adult daughters was hit by a car and lay dying. I was gone at the time and found her doing this when I got home several hours later. My neighbors saw her much earlier in the morning doing the same thing. After I removed her lifeless body, the mama kitty still stayed at the sidewalk looking for her daughter. I don't know if you'd call this a memorial service, but she sure seemed sad and upset that her daughter was killed. I think you're wrong in saying that animals don't care what happens to one of their own. I think they do care, but in some instances they are helpless in trying to defend against predator attacks.
Originally posted by quzah
What are you fucking stupid all of this sudden? They have no concept of death and dying? Get real. That's got to be the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Animals have no concept of dying... You truely boggle the mind.
So much for that whole survival instinct theory huh?
Give me a hit of whatever it is you're smoking.
Quzah.
Gosh 'o golly, how am I to respond to such an eloquent post. :haha:
Bugz, yes some animals stand and fight especially mothers defending there young. I know elephants mourn and probably primates. I simplified it to the type of animals we domesticate and raise for food.
I think we should just sum it up succinctly and all of us admit that we're fucking stupid.
That oughta settle the discussion once and for all...
Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
I know elephants mourn and probably primates. I simplified it to the type of animals we domesticate and raise for food.
You simplified it because you don't want to give admirable traits to your food. It's ok, I know you won't admit there's more to your food than you think there is. You're stubborn and in denial, that's fine. Now that we've crossed that bridge, let's move along shall we? But please, since you're the one who mentioned "reality", try to join the rest of us, ok?
Quzah.
Next time I eat a cow I'll wonder if it pondered its navel, its mortality and other "admirable" traits.:D
Oh, and Els. I'm not fuckin' stupid. I'm not fuckin' anybody.:p
I'm not fuckin' stupid. I'm not fuckin' anybody.
We're all glad to know you take a break from it to post Bruce.
You know, I was just sitting here, thinking how serene and noble deer are. The mothers protecting the young the adult males protecting the group, even with their own lives at times. And so graceful, yet powerful. They taste great too. Deer chili freakin' rocks.
You misunderstand, Whit. I don't do it, I just talk about it. ;)
Enjoy your chili.
Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
You misunderstand, Whit. I don't do it, I just talk about it. ;)
And the truth reveals it's ugly head. Bruce isn't *really* a dirty old man, he just plays one in the Cellar:p
It's not truths, it's my ugly head that slows me down. :3eye:
Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
It's not truths, it's my ugly head that slows me down. :3eye:
Which "head"?:p
I AM THE RESORECTOUR (sp?)!!!
I'm pretty sure I fucked that up.
Well if I brought you out of the woodwork it can't be good.