Seriousness That Changed You
I was going over the thread about Silliness, and it kicked off some thinking in the other direction. What serious, hideous or other decidedly not-funny incident or series of events first made you realize that life could really, really suck?
I suppose the question for some could cause the dredging up of old and awful memories, and if so, please only share within your comfort zones. It just seems to me that, if we are going to discuss the light side, we should also flip the duct tape over and see what lie's on the inverse.
For me, the first really distinctive memory that things were not all sweetness and light in the world, the first that I really grasped at all, was the assassination of JFK. Although I was too young to have had much of an opinion about him myself, the effect on all the adults around me was very impactful. The images of the funereal procession on TV was also profound. The Saturday AM cartoons it wasn't.
Still, it wasn't until I reached adulthood, married and had a kid that I really learned just how fucked up things can get, but that's where I reach my limit of desire to share further, so let's boot the ball over to you all.
Losing. They say when one door closes another opens. That may be so but it's usually not simultanious. That poignant pause is sometimes shattering. Losing jobs, lovers, friends, faith, etc.
I thought of a few stories of childhood disillusionment when I first read the thread but no full thoughts to type out. Then at the grocery store the other day I saw something that might qualify.
In the line in front of my daughter and I was a boy in the shopping cart. He was probably six or seven, but it was hard to say. He was beyond skinny, more like emaciated. His poorly formed bones stuck out through tightly pulled flesh. I'm not sure what the boys illness was, but he was clearly severely underdeveloped. For all this he looked out at the world with an odd blank interest, at first I thought he was mentally deficient as well. Then he looked me in the eye with what appeared to be shining intelligent eyes. It was weird, one moment he looked dazed but curious. The next he looked like someone that had just struck upon a new idea. He looked at me with clear recognition of a stranger in front of him. He expression changed, he smiled shyly, even nervously and raised a hand in a wave that was almost as underdeveloped as his body. It hurt a little to see his great optimism in what was likely to be a very short and painful life. I gave him a warm (hopefully even playful) smile and a little wave back.
About that time his mother, who was loading the items onto the conveyor to be rung up, seemed to realize someone was looking at her son. She turned almost to quickly for me to pretend to have been looking at something else all along. After she shot a severe look into my peripherals she wrote a check. As unobtrusively as possible, I studied the woman's face, she looked tired, beyond tired actually. Like she had been emotionally pushed to the breaking point everyday for years. The boys head had laid down on the hand grip. He clearly and sharply said the word "UP" and his mother reflexively raised his head back up straight. Apparently he could usually hold his head up but once it laid over, he needed help. This happened twice while we were there.
I thought about how hard his mom's life must be, and how tired she looked. Maybe in the dark corners of my mind I wondered if she resented the fact that she had been given a son that couldn't live a normal life. That would never be able to take care of himself. Then I noticed her purchase. An inflatable swimming pool and a float.
Most days I'll tell you I hate people. That people are largely and typically petty, deceitful, greedy and self-absorbed. Then I see a woman like this. Dutifully doing whatever she can to make her sons difficult and probably short life a happy one. Even if it killed her. Makes me wonder what people are really capable of deep down.
When we are faced with easing the pains of our children, I don't really know that there are any boundaries...at least, not within the hearts and minds of people who aren't hopelessly fucked up.
While my own son is nowhere near as incapacitated as the child you describe, he is also far from a normal young man. He will never drive, he will always have a seizure disorder, and his comprehensional and learning abilities are virtually fixed somewhere at a fourth grade level. He is 22 years old, but still relies on me and his stepmother for pretty much all of his transportation needs to work, the bank, the store, etc. He has few friends because he can't engage in many of the activities they enjoy...he can't drink because of the meds he takes, he is on a very limited income (SS disability and a meager part time menial job), and he simply doesn't have the same grasp of nuance and context that even the most feeble normal young adults have.
He is living mostly independently, but certain needs in his life will always be met by someone else. My wife and I have spent quite a lot of time over the past few years getting him to this point. We probably rushed him along a bit more than we should have, because we wanted to be able to see how he faired while we were still around to help him. After we are gone, he will likely be totally on his own, and believe me, he needs a lot of practice before that happens.
I'm not really bemoaning my lot in life...I could just as easily have lost the boy altogether 12 years back when his problems turned him from the smartest kid in class to the most fearful kid in special ed. Furthermore, any burden I have to bear in his name pales in comparison to the challenges he faces each and every day in a world filled with people who don't want to or are unable to grasp his limitations and handicaps. I guess all I'm trying to say is that, yes, it does wear one down, but I will have to be worn almost down to nothing before I could not find the strength in myself to do whatever it takes to see my son as safe, strong and happy as he can be given his abilities and limitations.
Love for one's children really doesn't allow any less.
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As a junior in high school, I met a young man named Steven. We started dating, and were on again, off again until I ended up "going out" with his best friend, Travis.
Got pregnant at 16, married Travis at the insistance of my mother. She kicked us out 2 weeks later, and now, homeless, we made the decision to give him up for adoption to Travis' aunt and uncle. I delivered at his aunt's house at age 17.
Divorced Travis after 2 years of emotional and physical abuse, got myself back together, started talking to Steven again while he was in the Navy. We had plans to get together when he came off west pac, but I didn't have a way to get to San Diego at the time, and wasn't home when he called. He never called back.
20 months later I had remarried and moved to England, got a phone call from a detective in Oregon. They had arrested Travis on murder charges. Steven had been reported missing Christmas of 91 by his grandma in Pennsilvania (he was from Erie), and in 1995 Travis (and his uncle, Ron) finally admitted to torturing him, killing him, dismembering him and spreading his parts across a half mile radius behind his house.
After giving me this information, they asked if I wanted Justin (my son) back, since they knew he didn't belong to Ron and his wife. I said yes, and went to Oregon to get him back. He was 7 then.
Talking to Steven's grandmother after the fact, she told me that he had called her told her he was leaving in 3 days to visit her, and was stopping by my house on the way to propose to me. He was cutting the ties to Travis' family, and wanted a fresh start with me. They killed him the day before he was to leave.
There's lots more to the story, but the point is that Steven's death is the point I realized that life sucks.
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Jebus H. Christ! I've got a million questions, but I'm not going to ask. :eek:
Wow.
I'm almost wish you hadn't posted that, because I can't respond to it with one of my usual stupid remarks.
How old is your son now? How much does he know?
Good lord that is fucked up. And I'm sorry to hear it.
Don't answer if you don't want to. I guess I don't want to force you to think about it. Then again, I don't know how you could avoid it.
OnyxCougar wins i think...
I hope the second marrige worked out ok well i think you deserve it...
You also silenced dave, that's impressive.
By the way, I don't mean fucked up as in "your life is fucked up"... but fucked up that human beings do that to each other. Kidnapping, torture, dismemberment... unbelievable. And awful.
Jesus, OC...I am *so* sorry. I tell myself every day that many people have borne far worse burdens than myself or my family, and you definitely qualify.
Here's to better days and better people.
This whole thing is making me feel like a real asshole, because I don't know how to respond. And I can't leave it alone. So...
I'm really very, very sorry to hear about that. It's one of those things that makes you wish humans didn't exist, because we're the only type of animals that does those sort of things to each other.
I really don't know how else to respond. I'm sorry.
[COLOR=indigo]Wow.
Over the years, I think I've become used to the fact that it happened, and I didn't expect the responses I got.
I had a big old long reply written, then I clicked on a link in my mail program and it used this window (of course) to go there and when I came back, it was all gone. :(
I'm happy to answer any questions, or expound, if you like. It's been a long 32 years for me, and as I like to say, "It's not the age, it's the mileage." So go ahead and ask. Didn't mean to hijack the thread, Elspode.
Justin is 15 now, and he knows the basics. I haven't given him all the details. I didn't even know the details, until one day, I was screwing around, bored at work, and did a search on Google for Steven's name.
Came up with this PDF file. (WARNING: It's textually graphic.)
The second marriage didn't do so well either, and now I'm single, living in Vegas, moving to Iowa August 1.
Yes, bad things happen. But how we deal with them and go on with our lives is what shapes us. I'm subscribing to the thread, so go ahead and ask away. :) Really.[/color]
[SIZE=1]edit: If I could type I could get a real job.[/SIZE]
How did you tell him? Or did he know from just being around it?
I guess I've kinda assumed that there was still some feeling between you and Steven; have you told Justin this? How does he feel toward his father?
And, uh... please tell me Travis is in jail for a long, long, LONG time.
[COLOR=indigo]
{back history} In high school, Travis and Steven were best friends. Steven's sister is Shannon, and Shannon and I became best friends. Travis and Shannon were on-again, off-again dating as well. So it was the four of us hanging out all the time.
Steven's dad was a prick, so Steve spent alot of time at Trav's house. Trav lived with Ron and Bobbie, his aunt and uncle. Ron and Bobbie pretty much adopted Steve into the family. Travis was always the blacksheep, so to speak, and it was pretty obvious that they liked Steve over Travis. When they kicked Travis out and we went to California, Steve moved in.{/back history}
Well, when we picked Justin up in Oregon and spirited him off to Washington in an attempt to secure an emergency passport (that went horribly wrong), I talked to him and tried to ascertain what he knew.
Keep in mind that up until the day before, he had thought his parents were Ron and Bobbie, and that he had 7 brothers and sisters. He thought Travis was his cousin.
I asked him what he knew about what was going on, and he said that his dad (Ron) had been arrested, and the kids at school were teasing all the kids about "Your dad cuts people up and puts them in garbage bags." and other things of that nature.
I told him that Ron and Travis were arrested for killing Steven. He remembered Steven from when he would go on leave from the Navy and visit "the family". He said that he had seen Carmen (Ron and Bobbie's oldest) showing off a hand to her friends. I don't know how true that is, but he said it. I was appropriately horrified.
In high school, Steven had proposed to me, I laughed at him. I didn't think he was serious. He was. Then I went off with Travis and he told me he'd always be there, waiting. When I left Travis, he was finishing up Navy training in Florida. I told him I was in Southern California and he was to be stationed in San Diego, so he was going to see me on his way to port.
He stopped in Oregon on the way, and they convinced him not to visit me. He went to San Diego and then went on West Pac. About a year later, I used the Navy locator and found him again, and we started writing back and forth. We were going to try again, and I was to meet him in San Diego, when his ship pulled in (January 91). I had managed to borrow a friends car, but didn't have enough money for gas, so I couldn't go. I wasn't home when he called. I know now that he had stayed in San Diego instead of taking leave like he was going to, and took the leave in July 91. He went to Oregon, and when they tried to talk him out of seeing me again, he decided to pack all his stuff and leave. I don't know if they knew he was going to propose to me or not.
The BS about Ron not knowing about Steve and Carmen is a complete lie. Ron knew about them years before. Bobbie had pulled Carmen out of Steve's bed several times. Steve had told me that he had broken up with Carmen months before he came back from West Pac. I think they killed him because they were the beneficiaries of his military insurance policy, they were using his car while he was gone, he was sending home money to help the family out, etc. Once he had enough of their BS and they found out he was leaving and taking all his stuff with him...well, the obvious. Ron put a bug in Travis' ear, and Travis, still pissed that I had "gone back" to Steve, did it.
Justin wants to meet Travis when he turns 18. Travis wants NOTHING to do with Justin. I think it's morbid curiosity on Justin's part. I've told him I don't think it's a good idea.
Travis is in Oregon State Penn, he got life, no possibility of parole. Ron got 20 years, and is trying to get out early. I think he's eligible for parole here soon.
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Whew! Iowa is farther than Las Vegas from Oregon. I hope it's far enough for you to look ahead and not behind. It sounds like you're coping and I wish you all the best. Both of you.
I liked your picture.:blush:
Bruce is a dirty, dirty old man.
Originally posted by Elspode
While my own son is nowhere near as incapacitated as the child you describe, he is also far from a normal young man. He will never drive, he will always have a seizure disorder, and his comprehensional and learning abilities are virtually fixed somewhere at a fourth grade level. He is 22 years old, but still relies on me and his stepmother for pretty much all of his transportation needs to work, the bank, the store, etc.
I have almost the exact same situation with my 18-year-old son. Here in Pennsylvania, there is a training course available in public transportation for disabled youths and adults.
Our biggest problem is that there is no public transportation here in Grandview. There is one bus stop, it runs mostly expresses downtown, and it is about five miles from his apartment. Even if he could be trained to ride the bus around town, there are so many places they don't go in the KC Metro area. Our public transportation system is probably among the worst in the world.
Originally posted by OnyxCougar
[Wow.
Didn't mean to hijack the thread, Elspode.
Good grief, please, think nothing of the sort. This is precisely the type of thing (not your specific case, of course, but the conept of discussing how and when our outlooks on life changed and why) when I started this thread. It certainly wasn't just to air my own miseries.
It does sound like you've come to grips with your experience, and that is the sign of a healthy individual, I think.
Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
I liked your picture.:blush:
Picture? What picture? I miss everything, damn it.
:blush:
Prolly should've posted something more...PG, huh?
No, we're (mostly) adults here. Fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck. Little kids should be out playing hide and go fuck themselves.
Prolly should've posted something more...PG, huh?
[SIZE=4]NO.[/SIZE]
Bruce is a dirty, dirty old man.
And your point is?;)
I can't say it better than I did the first time. :)
But you make it sound like a bad thing.;)
[COLOR=purple]I'm shaking as I write this.
I'm putting this here because it's directly related to my previous posts.
Bored at work, as usual, I was surfing around and found
this.
I'm not sure why I'm so upset. I think it's mostly because it doesn't sound to me like he's miserable in prison. It sounds to me like he's having a good old time getting boinked by bubba, piercing all his body parts and cybering with the internet ho's. He admitting to murdering a person, he shows no remorse, is in prison with no possibility of parole. Doesn't sound like much of a punishment if the website is any indication.
I'm angry. Angry that he killed Steven and now is internet capable, can contact people, and I'm frightened that he could concievably find me. He threatened me when I saw him in jail, (had to get the divorce decree amended to get Justin back, so he had to sign the new decree and he would only sign it after he spoke with me) he found out I was married to David (who is black) and said if I didn't take care of Justin he would sic the KKK after us. Now, I'm no longer married to David, but the fact is, this ia a person who tortured, murdered and dismembered a man (which I still feel partially responsible for), and I DON'T want him knowing where I am, or where any of my children are.
The Oregon prison system has let this monster be internet capable. What kind of punishment is this? [/color]
That is pretty fucked up. I would get on the horn with your lawyer ASAP and find out exactly what you can do about this. I can't believe there isn't some sort of internet equivalent of a restraining order. Maybe they only allow him access to a very restricted list of sites? I would think you should be able to sue the state of Oregon for endangering you and your family like this, if you want to take it that far.
If nothing else, I'm sure there is enough talent around here to fuck up that website of his. Maybe Undertoad also would be willing to block whatever IP range the prison is using, to prevent him from reaching the Cellar, although that isn't a foolproof method.
It says on the site that all e-mail responses will be slow, as e-mails must be be physically printed out and mailed to him. So, it sounds to me like someone made the website for him, and he just sent them a letter saying what to say. Charles Manson had a
website up at one time, too, via the same methods (outside help).
Unless you prevent him from sending letters or having visitors, I don't see how you can stop this.
[COLOR=indigo]After I calmed down a little I digged a little deeper, and the main domain, raven.codenamex.com, belongs to a woman who (apperantly) is a pen pal. She is probably the one sending him the mails and creating the webspace for him.
Now I'm left with no recourse. I can't stop him from writing people, I can't stop her from putting anything she wants on her own webpage, and I have no idea what she knows about him or the entire situation. I don't know if she would search for me on his behalf. I feel better that he doesn't have direct access, but I'm still troubled by the fact that he's got webspace through this woman who seems to be good intentioned, but more than likely misled.
Did a yahoo search on the email address referenced on the page, and they don't have a profile or any other reference. Probably something she created for him to facilitate the pen pal thing.
I'm still upset, but slightly mollified. I think the biggest thing was the shock of seeing it out of the blue. I don't know. I'm still shaken up and now I'm looking for me all over the internet to see if I can find me.
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Life, with no parole. Prison is not the place to be for a pretty, alpha, male. So he's building a fantasy world courtesy of some gullible bimbo. His real world is quite another matter. No matter how bad he is, there's always someone badder to make him do things he doesn't want to do.
There was a guy in these parts called the Mudman. He was bad. He was the baddest. Now he's dead because, lo and behold, there was someone even badder than he was. I don't think even his mother shed a tear.
The Lord works in mysterious ways, so fuck him and keep your life on track. The best revenge is living well.;)
[COLOR=indigo]I agree, and I've thought relatively little about him, until I was smacked in the face with his picture today. At this point I think I'm becoming ok with it, I'm fairly convinced he doesn't have direct access, and since I'm moving anyway, it's not as much of a deal.
I can't find me by name, and wasn't an internet geek when the whole Justin thing came down, so he doesn't know the OC name, or my Ham Radio callsigns, which are the only 2 ways I can find me. I'll just be more careful from here out. Perhaps this was just a rude but harmless awakeniing to the fact that I need to be more cautious.
:)[/COLOR]
OC, I did a bit more digging around, and it appears that you can probably have this website shut down if you want to.
The IP address for raven.codenamex.com is 24.221.72.75. A reverse DNS lookup reveals this net block belongs to a Sprint Broadband service, sprintbbd.net (specifically, cpe-24-221-72-75.mi.sprintbbd.net is the host name).
This service's Acceptable Use Policy is
here . Although it comes with 6MB of web space, this person is running a server directly from their Sprint broadband connection, which is prohibited under 1.1.21 of the Policy (emphasis mine):
When using the Service, you may not: ... run programs or servers that provide network services to others through the Services which <B>includes, but is not limited to, web hosting</B>, multi-user interactive forums, game servers, operating an internal mail/http/ftp/irc/dhcp server to serve external connections or support multi-user interactive forums
So, it's your call how far you want to take it; you may end up pissing them both off, even though there's (hopefully) no way they would either know it was you for sure, or be able to track you down. If you do decide to take action, you can get hold of Sprint
here .
She'll just put the website up on her 6 meg Sprint web space, or on a geocities account or something.
Aren't you guys for free speech?
Juju, I think the main issue here is that Onyx fears for her safety, as this guy is a bad dude. The rights of Onyx trump this turd's rights any day, given that he is in prison, therefore, he loses some of his rights. Plus, the initial issue was "Is this guy able to use the internet in prison?"
I dunno how I feel about prisoners being able to use the internet. While I feel it could be a valuable tool, there is the concern that prisoners could continue their "enterprise" behind bars.
Onyx, I know this guy is scum around the toilet bowl, but I would just let him carry on his delusion. He will never be back on the streets to threaten you and your family. He has yet to initiate any kind of contact with you (right?). And you've given yourself a low profile in case he does try to contact you. Not to mention, I suspect that if you do anything to try and have that site shut down, you'll be one of the first people suspected of it, and then he (or someone on his behalf) WILL try to look for you.
If anything, if you can somehow find it within you, laugh at that website. Laugh at his outright patheticness, chuckle at the fact that he'll never meet the transsexual of his dreams, howl at the fact that he'll never see the outside again.
You sound like you're on the right path with your life, Onyx. Let this situation be a mere roadside attraction that's not worth stopping to see.
[COLOR=indigo]Last month, my exhusband (Mark, the 3rd ex) called me and warned me a Private Investigator had contacted him and was looking for me on behalf of a lawyer, would was representing Travis (my first ex, subject of much discussion on this thread). Seems the last address I can be traced to is my first apartment after leaving Mark, in Vegas.
I created a yahoo address with a New Zealand domain and Mark gave it to the PI. The PI emailed me, and asked me if I knew about any sexual abuse in his childhood. I created a reply, emailed it to Mark, who in turn, logged into the NZ yahoo account, and pasted it, then sent it.
(I went through all that to make sure the header of the email would have the lv.cox.net address, indicating Las Vegas, and it was generated from a Las Vegas IP).
I received an email back from the PI thanking me, and I thought that was it.
Tonight, for shit's and giggles, I went back the that account and logged in, to find the following email in that box:
I'm the lawyer representing Travis that (the PI) referred to in his first email to you. Thanks for responding to (the PI's) email, and I don't think we will be needing any other information from you about that. I will not be passing on any contact information concerning you to Travis.
I was talking to Travis today, and he asked me to ask you if you would mind sending him information on how Justin is doing. He does not want Justin to have contact with him, because he does not think it would be good for Justin. However, Travis has been thinking about Justin and wondering how he was, both physically and mentally. He was wondering if Justin ever ended up
needing eye surgery, for instance. If you would mind even just
replying to this email, and giving me some information about Justin, and I would be happy to pass it on to Travis.
Thanks again for being kind enough to respond to us.
Sincerely,
(attorney's name)
This is the same man that, when I told him I was pregnant, said, "Is it too late for you to get an abortion?" The same person that ultimately pushed me to give Justin to Travis' aunt (we were homeless because he wouldn't work), and the same person that physically and emotionally abused me for over 2 years.
After I had returned to England with Justin, I sent him a picture of Justin and a picture of Stonehenge. He sent the picture of Justin back and said he didn't care about him, but would I send a few more of Stonehenge?
My quandry is this:
This woman is an attorney. Should I send a letter (through Mark) to her, telling her Justin is just fine, thank you, or should I just ignore the letter altogether? My fear is that the attorney will become agressive ans start looking for Justin. Travis *IS* the boy's father, and I'm unclear about his rights, even though he's incarcerated for life, no possiblity of parole. Does he have a right to know where he is? His condition? Can the attorney pursue that? Wouldn't that put both of us in danger?
The easy answer is send a brief letter, but on the other hand, I don't want to start a precedent of giving him any information he asks for.
Help.
[/COLOR]
Tell him briefly how Justin is doing and leave it at that. Though your ex is a piece of shit, be a better human being than he is.
This is the same man that, when I told him I was pregnant, said, "Is it too late for you to get an abortion?" The same person that ultimately pushed me to give Justin to Travis' aunt (we were homeless because he wouldn't work), and the same person that physically and emotionally abused me for over 2 years.
After I had returned to England with Justin, I sent him a picture of Justin and a picture of Stonehenge. He sent the picture of Justin back and said he didn't care about him, but would I send a few more of Stonehenge?
I'd send that to the lawyer.
And how does a lifer pay a lawyer?
Geez...I've missed a lot since I started this thread.
This guy is seriously fucked up...more than I'd even been able to gather from your initial posts, if that is possible. Sometimes, I'm hopelessly naieve, even where murderers are concerned.
OC, I think I'd forward a message through the intermediary lawyer (since you are certain you have covered your tracks well enough), but at the end of that message I would make some sort of statement along the lines of "this is the last such inquiry I will answer, do not try to contact me again."
I think this poor excuse for human debris needs to be out of your mind forever. It is the quickest path to healing. You owe him *nothing*, and further contact with him can only be bad for both you and your son.
Good luck. You are a very strong person, and you should be very proud of how you've conducted yourself in light of the horrifying experiences you've had.
It just now occurred to me to ask...why did the PI want to know about sexual abuse in Travis' past? What possible bearing could this have on anything at this point? Is Travis suing someone?
This couldn't be background work for an appeal or anything, I hope?
[COLOR=indigo]Gods, I hope not.[/COLOR]
Onyx - I live in Oregon. I remember when this happend. OMFG. Sadly - enough I think - I know some people in the Oregon Penn. (They deserve to be there - not nearly as much as that son of bitch does - but they deserve it none the less) Oh my God. I don't know what else to say except that I prayed to the good spirits to protect you and give you strength when I read that post.
(And - as a side note on his link - I think he's butt ugly and I bet he's someone's bitch which is why he has that page to begin with - needs to think that he's a man. He's not. He's not even human.)
OC,
I just spent two hours reading this thread and am flabbergasted. Life has sure dealt you a shitty hand so far, except for your recent marriage :) . I hope for you this one is the real deal. I don't even really know what to say except that you seem like a strong, solid, healthy person now and I applaud you for that. When I hear such a horrific tale as this it makes my measly woes seem irrelevent in the scheme of things. By your overcoming and moving on, I feel hope that I can "not sweat the small stuff" and try to live life in a more positive manner. Please don't take my post as turning attention to me, but I just want to let you know that even though I don't know you personally you have impacted me by surviving such bad things and turning out to be such a good, caring, friendly person.
I'm curious, what did you end up doing? Did you get word to the lawyer that Justin is OK, did you not make any further contact? I really don't know what I would do in this situation. I think I would send the lawyer a note saying that you have no interest in relaying any info. about your child to the "shitbag" in prison and that if he wanted to know how his son was he should of thought of that 12 years ago. I'd add the part about..."This is the same man that, when I told him I was pregnant, said, "Is it too late for you to get an abortion?" The same person that ultimately pushed me to give Justin to Travis' aunt (we were homeless because he wouldn't work), and the same person that physically and emotionally abused me for over 2 years. After I had returned to England with Justin, I sent him a picture of Justin and a picture of Stonehenge. He sent the picture of Justin back and said he didn't care about him, but would I send a few more of Stonehenge?" for good measure. I really don't know though, something like this may just make "the asshole" more curious.
I was also curious (but if you'd rather not discuss it I would fully understand)...about Justin. Does he live with you now? Does he have any guilt feelings (for lack of better words) about what happened, I mean like feeling he was in some way responsible for his dad's (I can hardly bring myself to call this "sick-ass, murdering, piece of shit" someone's 'dad') behavior? Does he show any signs that he might consider himself a "bad seed" and think he might end up like "sperm donor"? I am in no way insinuating that this is likely to happen, but I remember seeing shows about children who are the product of a rape and when they learn of the circumstances of their conception they feel like they are not worthy human beings and other things along the "bad seed" line and go on to have mental and behavioral problems that affect their lives. I was just wondering if this might be true of a child whos parent commited a horrible crime like murder.
Originally posted by LUVBUGZ
irrelevent
That would be "irrelevant"...
whos
and "whose".
Nice quick correction. Rest assured that I saw it before you edited.
Originally posted by LUVBUGZ
Tkank you, Dave.
Just to reinforce, it's "Thank", not "Tkank".
Can't get anything past you can I? I took that reflex test that UT linked in the Cool site thing but couldn't post about my lacking reflexes because UT posted there. I digress. Needless to say, while you were faster than lightening I was slower that molasses in Jan., but don't assume slow physical reflexes equate to slow mental function. I know you think I'm am an idiot and to some extent I agree, but at the same time I'm not as dumb as you think I am. Although, I'll never be as smart (or smart-assed:rolleyes: ) as you Dave. That I'm confident you can count on. Does that make you feel better that I have bowed down in homage to your superiorness? FYI, in case you are unable to decipher my tone, I'm half serious, half joking with you. I'm thinking of not even re-reading my posts for spelling or grammatical errors anymore just so you'll have something to do other than give me an ass kicking about everything I write. I might even start to purposely add a few typos for your reading pleasure. I was truly touched by your sincere answer to my dial-up question in the Wolf computer thread. I knew you could do it. I just wish you could do it more often than not. Unlike some people here I actually appreciate your spelling/grammatical corrections. Keep up the good work:thumb: . I didn't even proofread this post so see what you can come up with.:p
"I know you think I'm am an idiot..."
Oh that was bad...I'm am...that's really bad.
Dave, you're slipping. I caught that before you did.
Originally posted by LUVBUGZ
(snip) in homage to your superiorness? (snip)
Superiority.
Ok, now what the hell is this? It's one thing when Dave is harassing someone. He's been around and we all know that it's harassment for his own amusement. No big deal. Now we get the C.C.C.?
Christ, unless C.C.C. works for the government this is just annoying. Especially since it's doubtful C.C.C. is actually a newbie as opposed to somebody just making a name to harass for fun, without having to be recognized as someone that does this. This is just thread pollutant.
Originally posted by LUVBUGZ
OC,
I just spent two hours reading this thread and am flabbergasted. Life has sure dealt you a shitty hand so far, except for your recent marriage :) .
[color=indigo]**smiles** I'm actually used to it by now. I've decided that for some reason, I had specific lessons to learn, or things to experience. All those bad things, the "shitty hand", made me a better, stronger person. Of course, I
do have this weird facial tick.....
[/color]
I hope for you this one is the real deal. I don't even really know what to say except that you seem like a strong, solid, healthy person now and I applaud you for that. When I hear such a horrific tale as this it makes my measly woes seem irrelevent in the scheme of things. By your overcoming and moving on, I feel hope that I can "not sweat the small stuff" and try to live life in a more positive manner.
[color=indigo] Well, if that's what my drama brings to you, I'm glad for it. I'd hate to think that I went through all that stuff for nothing. *smirk*[/color]
Please don't take my post as turning attention to me, but I just want to let you know that even though I don't know you personally you have impacted me by surviving such bad things and turning out to be such a good, caring, friendly person.
[color=indigo]Well, thanks. I suppose I could have let things get out of hand, mentally, and just given up and let myself be "the victim". Those are the kinds of things that make or break a person. I feel the same way about people who lose their children. It was bad to lose Steven, but it would be worse to lose one of my kids. I am thankful that, relatively speaking, I got off as easily as I did. My husband, Steve, lost his 3 day old daughter to Strep throat 12 years ago. My step mother lost her 21 year old daughter, a girl I went to high school with, when a train hit the car she was riding in. She gets crunchy at Christmastime every year, when it happened. There are people who have lost SO much MORE than I have. So while you look at me and say, "damn, she lost a fiancee." I look at me and say, "damn, if that's the worst that ever happens, I'm one of the lucky ones." It's all in the outlook. [/color]
I'm curious, what did you end up doing? Did you get word to the lawyer that Justin is OK, did you not make any further contact? I really don't know what I would do in this situation. I think I would send the lawyer a note saying that you have no interest in relaying any info. about your child to the "shitbag" in prison and that if he wanted to know how his son was he should of thought of that 12 years ago. I'd add the part about...[b]"This is the same man that, when I told him I was pregnant, said, "Is it too late for you to get an abortion?" The same person that ultimately pushed me to give Justin to Travis' aunt (we were homeless because he wouldn't work), and the same person that physically and emotionally abused me for over 2 years. After I had returned to England with Justin, I sent him a picture of Justin and a picture of Stonehenge. He sent the picture of Justin back and said he didn't care about him, but would I send a few more of Stonehenge?" for good measure. I really don't know though, something like this may just make "the asshole" more curious. [/b]
[color=indigo] I simply didn't reply. I figure if he wants to know so bad that he sets the state to looking for me, (and they find me) I can then tell the state I want all the back child support that I should have gotten from their ward. I have a feeling that I know Travis pretty well, tho, and he doesn't
really care, he is just trying to make himself look "fatherly" to the attorney for whatever he's trying to get away with this time.[/color]
I was also curious (but if you'd rather not discuss it I would fully understand)...about Justin. Does he live with you now?
[color=indigo]No, he lives with David, one of my ex's, and the father of my youngest. David is who I was with when we picked him up. Generally speaking, he's a stable, mature, very disciplined individual. Very responsible. When I couldn't make it in Vegas anymore, I asked him if he would take both the boys (he's had Piglet since we separated). He thought it over, and finally agreed. So all three of my babies are in Mississippi with him now. I think the boys really needed the father figure and the discipline in their lives at this stage. (ages 15 and 10). I will probably get them back next summer. Justin can't wait.
[/color]
Does he have any guilt feelings (for lack of better words) about what happened, I mean like feeling he was in some way responsible for his dad's (I can hardly bring myself to call this "sick-ass, murdering, piece of shit" someone's 'dad') behavior? Does he show any signs that he might consider himself a "bad seed" and think he might end up like "sperm donor"? I am in no way insinuating that this is likely to happen, but I remember seeing shows about children who are the product of a rape and when they learn of the circumstances of their conception they feel like they are not worthy human beings and other things along the "bad seed" line and go on to have mental and behavioral problems that affect their lives. I was just wondering if this might be true of a child whos parent commited a horrible crime like murder.
[color=indigo]I don't think he has any ideas like that, but I do know he has ALOT of anger issues. My mother and sister seem to think he hates women, although I don't see that. He looks EXACTLY like Travis, down to the way his teeth are sitting in his mouth, and it was difficult for me, at first, to accept him back into my life. He was incredibly traumatized.
The kids at school were teasing him about "your dad custs people up and puts them in hefty bags" and things of that nature. They were talking about Ron.
Justin didn't know Travis was his father. They never told him. (Of course, he was 7 at the time, and would NOT have understood, so I'm not mad about that.) I wanted to go with the police officers to Justin's school or have them go by his house and pick up clothes and say goodbye, but they wouldn't do it.
My first sight of him in over 5 years was when they brought him to the police station, and his teacher (who had come with him) bent over and said, "Now, see? That sure looks like your real mom!"
He went from a family of 8 kids (Bobbie had 7 total + Justin) in Oregon, to a 15 month old autistic brother with speech problems, and a very large, intimidating black man as his new father, a 6 foot 1 mother he never met, and got whisked away to England, of all places.
He was in second grade. Couldn't write, or even recognize his own name on paper. He had a birth defect I was not aware of, that, since it was left untreated, caused him to be blind in one of his eyes, and has sever nystagmus in both. Soon as we got him to England, we began patching treatment, and corrective surgery to straighten them out some, but the problem is with his optic nerve...and it cemented incorrectly over the 7 years they failed to get him treated. (That DOES piss me off.)
During one year of British school, he caught up a great deal, so we enrolled him in the same school the following year. (They group children by age there, not academic acheivement.) He entered 4th year there, and at the end of the year we came home and moved to Vegas. They tested him and placed him in 3rd grade. So he effectively lost 2 years. He's going to be 16 in December, and he's in 9th grade.
We took him to various psychologists over the years, both American and British, and he will not talk to them. It's a waste of time and effort, and he gets more pissed off at me for making him go. They recommend me trying every other year or so for 3 month periods, perhaps he'll open up.
He is alot like me. He picked up alot of my habits (which, glad to say are mostly benign). We had the same sense of humor. He does have a tendency to bully his little brother, and just like me, he does not play well with others at school. He's a loner. I remember going to the library every day during lunch to read. He can't read well, so he walks around the fence by himself. He doesn't fit in not only because his age, but because he has had to mature so much so soon.
He's not happy at David's, because he is so much more rigid then I am, but I guarantee his grades will be better, and he's already the manager of the football team. (If you can't play with em, lead em.)
I have never told him the specifics of what Travis did. I have told him that Travis has no interest in him. He still wants to go see him when he turns 18. I told him I'd go with him if he wants, he says, he'll think about whether or not he wants me to go. I think it's a growing up thing for him. I think he's hoping Travis will suddenly want to be his dad... He doesn't understand that even if he wanted to (he doesn't) he lost that chance a long time ago.
So I guess the short answer is, he's doing ok, with a few more issues than the normal 16 year old male... but I think he'll be fine.[/color]
My bad ass kids, 2 years ago
OC,
Thank you for sharing your story with me and for answering my questions. I have a couple more if you don't mind? So as of today does Justin now that Travis is his "real" father? Do you plan on getting all three of your kids back, or just Justin? Does Justin hold any resentment towards you for leaving him with Ron and Bobbie? or, for leaving him with David? I was wondering if this has anything to do with his possible dislike of women. I can see where Justin may be confused and angry with the whole situation/s. I hope when you get him back some of your strength will rub off on him and I hope he does well in life. Is his vision OK now, or is he still blind in one eye? What is nystagmus? Does new hubby have kids? Do they live with you? How does he feel about adding your three?
PS---OC,
The pic of your kids didn't show up on my pooter. Not sure if it's a problem on my end or not?
[COLOR=indigo]They show up for me at work (where I posted them) but not at home. So I dunno.[/COLOR]
Originally posted by LUVBUGZ
OC,
Thank you for sharing your story with me and for answering my questions. I have a couple more if you don't mind? So as of today does Justin now that Travis is his "real" father?
[color=indigo]Yes. He knew the first day we had him.[/color]
Do you plan on getting all three of your kids back, or just Justin?
[color=indigo]I'll be getting the boys back. David keeps Piggy.[/color]
Does Justin hold any resentment towards you for leaving him with Ron and Bobbie? or, for leaving him with David?
[color=indigo]I think he did at first. My mother had said we could live with her if we got married. So off to Las Vegas, where she had to sign for me since I was 17 years old at the time. Two weeks later, she kicked us out.
So we were homeless, I was 8.5 months pregnant, couldn't get a job, Travis didn't want to work, but had no choice, so every other day or so he'd work for the guy who serviced the pool at my mom's apartment complex, and bring home $20.
Once I explained to Justin that giving him to someone who could take care of him properly, and the circumstances, he understood why we gave him to Bobbie.
He's not happy to be with Dave right now, but that's because Dave is alot stricter than I am and really makes him knuckle down with his school work. [/color]
I was wondering if this has anything to do with his possible dislike of women. I can see where Justin may be confused and angry with the whole situation/s. I hope when you get him back some of your strength will rub off on him and I hope he does well in life. Is his vision OK now, or is he still blind in one eye? What is nystagmus?
[color=indigo]He will always be blind in that eye, and as a matter of fact, his good eye is starting to deteriorate. The doctor told me he will most likely be blind completely before he's 30. There isn't anything that we can do, because it's not a problem with his eye itself, its the optic nerve and how it's wired into his brain.
http://www.nystagmus.org/aboutn.html for facts about nystagmus. They explain it better than I ever could.
[/color]
Does new hubby have kids? Do they live with you? How does he feel about adding your three?
[color=indigo] Steve has two girls that live with his ex in Atlanta. He is excited about the boys moving in next year. We're still adjusting to the fact we have 5 kids. He's got boys now, and I have 3 beautiful little girls to spoil now instead of 1. We can't wait to meet each other's kids. [/color]
It's a Geocities thing, I think. Try just attaching the image. Or you could just link to a copy of the picture on a non-geocities site.
OC, the pic comes through on your last post:) . I hope you don't take this as being too nosey, but if I may ask, who is the father of your younger boy? I know Justin is from Travis and your girl is from David. Also, I was wondering if David re-married or has a girlfriend, and if so, how do the kids get along with her?
[COLOR=indigo]Bryan is my younger son, I was engaged to his father (the guitarist in the band I was in) and found out I was pregnant. Had Bryan and then realized that his father was an alcoholic, so I gave him a choice: us or the booze. He picked the booze. I moved in with my friend, and then got my own apt. and started college full time. Now that Dave has Bryan, this is the first time I've not been with him. David is the only father he's ever known, so he's completely comfortable with him. (I married Dave when Bryan was 15 months old.)
A couple of years ago, Dave had a roommate, named Bambi. She had two kids, but only Piggy was there at the time, and she was about 4 so she didn't really mind. He doesn't have a girlfriend or anything now.
[/COLOR]
I'm curious. Is it really a good idea to hang a handle like piggy on a kid. I wonder if other kids would seize that and tease her. Also for a little kid it's cute but at what age does it become a liability. I have no clue so I wonder what you think. :confused:
[COLOR=indigo]Well, only 3 people call her Piggy. Me, and her brothers. She advised her father once, "Daddy, my name is Victoria." I tried to call her Victoria and was quickly advised, "Mama, you call me Piglet." I think she's got a handle on it.[/COLOR]
My own girl-child did something similar when she was four, I think. I called her by name and she, in an accusatory voice, said, "Daddy, you're supposed to call me 'Daughter'." So it's been ever since, she's either 'Daughter' or 'girl-child'.
Once her mom asked if she was also supposed to call the kid 'Daughter' and the girl says, "No, only my Daddy has to call me that."
She did relent and tell her mom she could call her 'Daughter' if she really wanted to. I think she was just being kind because her mom acted a bit taken back by her response though.
Kids have their own take on things. I read today where a second grader asked the teacher if she could use the phone to call her Mom. Questioning by the teacher revealed the girl had forgotten her coat at school the day before. The mother told the kid that morning to find her coat and not to come home without it. She couldn't find the coat and wanted to call her Mom and ask where she should go. :)
[COLOR=indigo]Found a more recent pic of the kids. It's a great one of the kids, but I look horrible. Or maybe I really look like this and I just have to accept that. Anyway, here it is.[/COLOR]
God you guys are so cute. And Onyx - I think you look beautiful!
[COLOR=indigo]*blush* thanks. If there is one thing in this world I did well, I made good lookin babies.[/COLOR]
You are good looking yourself!!! Give yourself some credit girl!!!
Actually - I have a friend that could be your twin. Its kinda eerie.
[COLOR=indigo]I'm posting this here because it's directly related.
[background]
I work at a major Cable Company and live in a largely rural portion of a Southern State. If you were a subscriber on a particular plan, you got 4 channels of HBO, 2 channels of Cinemax and 1 channel of Showtime for $19.95 a month + cost of the analog box ($2.00).
In November, we sent out a flyer that told the customers that we were removing 2 of the HBO channels and 1 of the Cinemax channels from the analog lineup to make room for 17 new digital channels, and offered a month of free service if they upgraded to Digital. If they kept the same premiums, they'd get 8 channels of HBO, 7 channels of Cinemax and 7 channels of Showtime for $5.95 more a month, plus they'd get the digital services like 45 music channels, 32 PPV channels and the interactive program guide and a free "Christian" Tier for free until the end of January.
The change took place last Wednesday.[/background]
Last call of the night. Female customer calls in to inquire why she wasn't getting three of her package channels. I explained the above. After looking at her account, I noticed she already has digital on one TV, and two additional analog boxes, which lost the 3 channels.
She asked if we were reducing her bill, and I explained no, because HBO charges us per subscriber, not per screen, and for $11.50 a month, she was getting 8 HBO channels on digital and 2 on each of her analog boxes. I explained that if she wanted all 8 HBO channels, she would have to pay for the additional digital boxes, which, after she turns in her analog boxes, comes out to $3.95 more each box per month. So for $7.90 a month, she'll net about 38 channels on her digital service, not to mention she gets all the other digital channels SHE'S ALREADY PAYING FOR on all three of her TV's for that same $7.90 more.
She asked me if I liked being a rapist.
The question stopped me cold. I said, "What?" She said, "How can you look at yourself in the mirror at night knowing that you're helping [company] rape people?" I told her that is NOT the case, and she said, "Oh yes it is. You're forcing me to upgrade my analog boxes to digital if I want those 2 channels of HBO that you took. Those boxes aren't free."
I said, "We're not forcing you to do anything. If you want to upgrade those boxes to digital, you can. If you don't want to, you don't have to. You get those channels on the digital box you already have."
"But if I want those channels on my other box, I have to go digital."
"That's right."
"So you're forcing me to do something against my will. That's rape."
At this point, I started to get upset. I've been raped, and let me tell you, this is not what being raped is. I said, "Ma'am, no one is FORCING you to have Cable Television. You choose to have Cable, you choose to have HBO, you choose to have this service. This is what we have, I'm sorry if it's changed, it's in every paper you signed and every bill you get that we can change service without notice. If you don't like our service, or don't feel the value of our service is worth the money, cancel."
What I wanted to say was, "Look bitch. If you want to feel what "raped" is, I can see if a man will come over to your house, tie you up to your bed and fuck you repeatedly with a K-bar knife and leave you for dead. And I won't even make you pay for it."
But I didn't.
I signed out, and went home and cried in my husband's arms instead.
[/COLOR]
I you feel frustrated how do you think we(subscribers) feel. They keep raising the rates and adding bullshit while taking away things we want. Actually they use the increases to stifle competition. :(
[COLOR=indigo]I understand how they feel, but regardless of what the company does or the policies it makes, it's NOT ok to call the person on the phone a rapist.[/COLOR]
I thought about this story all morning. It really bugs me.
I don't know the right answer and I don't think there is one. I think we are in a fractured, broken society in many ways.
This is what bugged me about dave, because he saw fit to be harsh on people and felt it was playful. No, it's only playful if the person on the receiving end thinks it is, and sometimes you can't tell.
I think we have less and less in common as people, and so we have fewer taboos, fewer lines that aren't to be crossed and we don't see how that affects us.
The bitch was out of line, purely. I can understand her frustration and confusion, but things change, and you gotta change with them or do without them.
Our cable bill is astronomical, because we have *everything* they offer. RoadRunner, all digital services, a digital box on four TVs and a DVR/cable box on another, and all premium channels. But no one forced us to do that. We did it because we love and use the services. We have five people in our home right now, and it takes a lot of diversity (and a lot of bandwidth) to satisfy everyone. We pay for that, and we know it.
If I *did* have a complaint, though, I'd never resort to calling a customer service person names, especially not those referring to them as violent criminals.
The word "rape" is so vulgar and ugly to me, that I could only use it in certain connotations/situations.
Getting screwed by the cable company? Absolutely. Taking it up the ass from the cable company? Sure. Raped? Nah...it ain't THAT bad. You don't like your cable, go with a dish or go without.
[COLOR=indigo]Because I kind of think of this as "my" thread, I'm posting this here.
About two or three years ago, I was playing a MUD (text only online RPG) and got romantically involved with one of the players (Jon). I flew to Iowa for the weekend, and Jon's best friend (Miah) and his gf (Sindy) and her dad (Bruce) came to pick me up at the airport and tooled me around Cedar Rapids and hung out with me until Jon got off work. So that's how I met them.
Now....Jon turned out to be just a fling, and I kept in touch with Miah, Bruce and Sindy through the MUD and Dark Age. Bruce had a "thing" for me.
So a year and a half later, Miah and the gang decide they want to move to San Diego, and ask me if they can stay at my place for a few days, to do the tourist thing in Vegas. Well of course they can.
So Miah, Sindy, Bruce and Sindy's son Jase decend on my apt, where I was living with my boys.
They stayed 2 months. Sindy got on food stamps, and they helped with food, and Sindy did alot of cleaning, but it was still 7 people in a 2 bedroom apartment.
They eventually moved into an apartment in the same complex. After almost a year, Bruce was working out of town, Sindy had her second child (Jasmine) and since Miah refused to get a job, they couldn't afford to live in Vegas, so her parents flew to Vegas, rented a UHaul and took them home.
In the process of moving they had a nice living room set, a blue couch, loveseat and chair (not recliner). Miah said if they didn't give it to me they were just gonna chuck it, since they couldn't pack it in the truck. He said that it was worth $2000 when they got it, and would I give them $500 for it. I said, sure.
Not long after, I decided to move out of Vegas. I didn't really care where, just not there. I had 3 options: Maine (to work for a seasonal resort), Iowa (and stay with Miah til I get on my feet), or North Carolina.
I didn't get the seasonal job in ME, so that option was gone. That left Iowa and NC. (Some of you may remember the posts.) Well, I really wanted to go to Iowa, but right about that time, Miah and Sindy fell off the face of the earth... I left messages on the MUD and on DarkAge. I left him email. Told him to call me, write me, anything, because I needed confirmation that it was good to go.
Nothing.
So, I figured, NC was the last option and I took it. I couldn't afford a Uhaul so I packed my car (and the roof carrier) and we drove. I left the couches behind with most of the rest of my material possessions.
[/backstory]
Today, I logged into Dark Age, and got a tell from Miah: "You're a hard person to get ahold of." He then makes small talk and asks how I am, where I'm working, if my husband is working, and where I am, then says that he hopes I havent forgotten about my debt, he's down on his luck right now, and was wondering if I could pay some of that debt.
I told him I remembered the debt, but that I felt like when he flaked out on me when it came time to help me, and he completely disappeared for 8 months, knowing I needed help.
He said he got kicked out of his mom's place and had no phone or internet access. I told him that I had checked on the mud, and he had logged into it several times during that period, so he at LEAST had net access, he could have sent me an email. Not only that, but when he did have access and started playing Dark Age again, he didn't try to contact me then, either. My email addresses didn't change.
Now out of the blue he wants his money.
I'm of two minds. The "good" side of me wants to pay him, and make good on my word. I told him I'd pay him.
On the other hand, when it came time to help ME out, he's nowhere to be found, (even tho he says he wasn't able to get online and I can prove he was.) and doesn't have the courtesy to contact me when he does get back online, UNTIL he wants his money. Now it's all about "how are you?". Not only that, but he was gonna throw them out anyway, but that's really nitpicking.
But I don't feel like I should pay him anything, because he severed the ties.
So what do you guys think? Pay him or not?
[/COLOR]
I'd come back with "Geez, I thought you had dropped off the face of the earth too. Well I can't just up and pay you immediately, I'm so broke. I mean you can't expect me to suddenly find a big ball of dough. How about $50 a month?"
Nobody with any good intention left would turn that down. Then just pay the first month immediately, the second a month later (in ratty-looking cash to make it physically look like a hardship), and then progressively forget until she finds it too much trouble to re-contact you every time for what is diminishing returns, only $50 quickly and then less and less principal each time.
This is the passive-aggressive approach but these people have never had your concerns in mind. In general, my guiding principle in life is "be kind to everyone", but in this case you did that and they only took advantage of you.
Originally posted by Elspode
I was going over the thread about Silliness, and it kicked off some thinking in the other direction. What serious, hideous or other decidedly not-funny incident or series of events first made you realize that life could really, really suck?
That's easy: June, 2001. The month that I found out that my life would change due to kidney failure. I was already type 2 diabetic since 1993, and I thought I was handling that ok. But, to have someone tell you that something in your body is failing, and that you now have to go on dialysis for pretty much the rest of your life...that's pretty mind boggling.
It didn't hit me fully until later on that year when I actually started on hemodialysis. That meant getting a Permacath in my neck (which was uncomfortable). I was fine with it for a bit, but I had to start off by going to the clinic at 6am. I'm not an early morning person, so I asked if they had a later schedule. Not so at that particular clinic, so I had to go to another one in the system (Belmont Court Dialysis). That was a nightmare. I got a catheter infection twice while I was there, and the techs were not as good as at the first clinic. So, I had to switch places for a third time (which was the charm). However, while on hemo, I couldn't work, so I switched to
Peritoneal Dialysis. This way, I could do my treatments at night while I slept, and return to work during the day.
That was May of 2002. The first year was ok, but going into the second, things started to change. I started to gain weight (the LAST thing I needed, considering I was already way overweight to begin with), my sugars were not stable, my skin and hair changed...I was a hot mess. In addition, my electrolytes are out of wack, and certain hormones have been depleted (haven't had my monthy in well over a year...not that I'm complaining!!). But, all that reeks havoc over one's overall well being, and three weeks ago, I agreed to see a psychiatrist that specializes in chronic illnesses to help me deal better with this "new" way of life, which in many ways, stills sucks.
I'm not going to lie: I'm not one of those people who is "brave" and "I'm going to fight this with every fiber of my being!" and all that. I'm not a natural born fighter, IMO. When things go wrong, the first thing I want to do is curl up in a ball and hope things work out. Getting better with that though. But, IMO, this isn't about bravery, but getting by the best way I know how. The old cliche, "One day at a time" is very true. But, I'm not going about this with a big grin on my face, and fake cheerfulness because I'm grateful that I am alive. I AM glad that I'm alive, but that doesn't mean that I'm not mad/angry/upset about this turn of events. It's hard to let go of the old me, and the things that I was able to do a lot more easier than I can do now. For instance, I'm leery about traveling now, because I have to lug a big ass machine and supplies with me. which is no picnic. I've heard that some people have had trouble at airport security checkpoints, because they are not familiar with the machine (some have even been told to set up the whole machine to prove that it's not a bomb!). I also have a lot of aches and pains due to an elevated parathyroid hormone level (basically, it depletes calcium from your bones...not good), which makes it hard to get around (as Jim and Jinx witnessed at the car show in January). I'm still having trouble getting work the "regular" way, so I'm checking out a program that Social Security has that helps disabled people in obtaining work.
This is not easy to totally accept. Not that I'm in denial, but I don't want to feel like I'm giving in to this. I'm young, and I feel that I have a lot more to do in life, and I would love to be able to have the piece of mind to say that I *can* and *will* experience it...but I can't...realistically. Even with a transplant, my life isn't guaranteed (no one's life IS, but I know that my mortality rate is much lower than the "average" healthy person). I don't know anyone's transplanted kidney that lasted more than 20 years. Sure, that's 20 years, but damn, that would mean my organ would last me until my 50s, and then I'd have to go back on dialysis (and hopefully, not back on hemo!). And I know how I am...I'd be pissed to all hell to have to do that.
These are just the many issues that I constantly have to deal with, and work out with the professional in the coming weeks.
Life doesn't suck as much as I thought it did about a year ago, but certain aspects of it still "really, really, sucks". :( :mad:
*just keeping it real*
[COLOR=indigo]I met a boy in 5th grade named Eddie Kammert. He wore hearing aids and was very serious. He had a hereditary disease (which I could never remember the name of) that meant the females carried the gene, and the males actually contracted the disease.
It started with hearing loss, then kidney failure, then heart failure. One way or the other, it killed you early.
I kept in touch with him over the years, (had a brief relationship in 1990) and he and his brother Matthew both decided to be childfree, just because (1)they wouldn't be around long enough to raise their children and (2) they refused to propagate the disease.
Once, Eddie showed me how all the dialysis worked, how it all worked together, and I very clearly remember he did NOT want me to "feel sorry" for him. He had the attitude of this happened, and there is nothing I can do about it, so why be mad or upset? He didn't have a "fighting" mentality, either, but he faced his condition with humor and a serious demeanor that belied his years. He crammed a whole life into the 26 years he was here.
Just from your posts here, Rho, I know that while you might not be a "stand up and fight" it person, you are definitely a "not going to lay down and die" person, either.
I'm glad you're getting help with the long term mental effects. Something like that has _got_ to be stressful, and wear you down. At least you have a good man to stand by you, and give you the much needed mental and emotional support.
Sending good thoughts out to you, and wishes for strength, peace, and courage to face what lies ahead. :) [/COLOR]
Originally posted by OnyxCougar
[COLOR=indigo]I met a boy in 5th grade named Eddie Kammert. He wore hearing aids and was very serious. He had a hereditary disease (which I could never remember the name of) that meant the females carried the gene, and the males actually contracted the disease.
It started with hearing loss, then kidney failure, then heart failure. One way or the other, it killed you early.
It sounds a little like
Tay-Sachs , except for the male-female component. Then again, there are more than a few recesssive diseases out there.
On a public policy front, I think requiring blood tests for couples seeking marriage is not a bad idea. Just letting future parents know if they are carriers of recessive diseases would help to prevent Tay-Sachs and sickle cell anemia.
Just from your posts here, Rho, I know that while you might not be a "stand up and fight" it person, you are definitely a "not going to lay down and die" person, either.
I'm glad you're getting help with the long term mental effects. Something like that has _got_ to be stressful, and wear you down. At least you have a good man to stand by you, and give you the much needed mental and emotional support.
Sending good thoughts out to you, and wishes for strength, peace, and courage to face what lies ahead. :)
*blurry monitor moment* :)
Thanks for the words of encouragement. Yep, it's hard, but it's getting better, bit by bit.
And you're right...I am not a 'lay down and die' type. It just seems like people with chronic illnesses are supposed to act "brave" and be this strong, fighter type, which I can not claim to be 100%, and that's just me keeping it real. It's like if you dare to complain, then you are ungrateful for being alive and having the health that you
DO have. That's not the case at all. It's just that for me, I feel that it's best to be truthful about how I feel about all of this, instead of keeping it all inside and then blowing up all at once later on. That's not good for me, or for Syc. (hehe)
I feel bad because I did forget to mention Syc in my rant, about how he's been my rock and my anchor in all of this. :joylove:
The one thing that I am proud of at this point is being a co-administrator for a dialysis board which allows patients to vent whenever they feel the need, but we also provide support and possible options in regards to patient and caregiver issues. There is also a fair amount of research, meaning many websites are posted for people to surf that may help them in their treatment and care. I try to encourage dialogue and to be more pro-active in individual care, because fear and ignorance is the worse thing for chronically ill patients.
Originally posted by richlevy
It sounds a little like Tay-Sachs , except for the male-female component. Then again, there are more than a few recesssive diseases out there.
On a public policy front, I think requiring blood tests for couples seeking marriage is not a bad idea. Just letting future parents know if they are carriers of recessive diseases would help to prevent Tay-Sachs and sickle cell anemia.
Perhaps something along the lines of this:
Understanding Gene TestingOriginally posted by Elspode
When we are faced with easing the pains of our children, I don't really know that there are any boundaries...at least, not within the hearts and minds of people who aren't hopelessly fucked up.
While my own son is nowhere near as incapacitated as the child you describe, he is also far from a normal young man. He will never drive, he will always have a seizure disorder, and his comprehensional and learning abilities are virtually fixed somewhere at a fourth grade level. He is 22 years old, but still relies on me and his stepmother for pretty much all of his transportation needs to work, the bank, the store, etc. He has few friends because he can't engage in many of the activities they enjoy...he can't drink because of the meds he takes, he is on a very limited income (SS disability and a meager part time menial job), and he simply doesn't have the same grasp of nuance and context that even the most feeble normal young adults have.
My son is almost 20 and autistic. He goes to school and has been job training at the same job for a few years. He has wanted to drive a car ever since his brother got his license. As far as we can tell, his physical health is fine. My greatest hope is that he can acheive some form of independence.
The thing about autism is that it is still more of a symptom than a disease. Noone has found a clear genetic component yet. It could be hereditary, environmental, or some combination. Not knowing still bothers me, although finding out that I might have passed this onto him would also be a terrible discovery.
I once got into a discussion with a distant cousin. We were comparing notes on our children. His oldest son does not appear to have any impairment in intelligence, but has a severe behavior disorder. He is scarred from self-inflicted scratches and cuts. He has been thrown out of schools and institutions. However, he has 'normal' speech and intelligence and can communicate with his father, even if they yell at each other.
So my cousin and I were talking about all of this and trying to figure out who had it worse, the man with the son who is semi-independent but who disappears and reappears, and who may one day turn up missing or dead, or the man whose son lives at home and is relatively well-behaved, but who cannot communicate with his father at an adult level.
Unless there is some dramatic change, I will always speak to my son as if he is a young child. I do get to see him happy, and we do get to do things together, but I will never know him as a man. My goal is for him to be in some kind of group home arrangement, and I hope that his training will allow him to reach that point. But if that happens, it will still not seem real to me. It will still seem like visiting a child at camp and not an independent person in his home.
My son goes to a school for autistic children. A while ago, he was in a much larger special school, which had a group of children with a larger range of disabilities. I remember the graduation there years ago when I watched children with very mild to unbelievably severe disabilities as they graduated. In Pennsylvania, special education students are in school until age 21. I could imagine the parents of these children, and even back then, when my son was 11 or 12, I could imagine the future, when it would be my son graduating.
That future is two years away.
I can remember being deliberately cynical as a kid. Really I figured the world was a pretty messed up place. The age we were living in seemed to teem with danger and disarray....But really I felt all of that against the backdrop of a very sheltered and actually quite rosie view of my immediate little bit of the world...Apart from a chronic illness which I dont need to bore ya with here ( nothing serious enough to be lifethreatening or permanently injurous, just enough to fuck up my schooling and spend waaaay too much time reading ;P) The world had really presnted me with a lot of good vibes. Even when my mum was injured at work and had to give up her career, she rode it out with reasonable equanimity as she did most things....
Dogs came and eventually went. Relatives mainly got along with a few lost to illness and injury along the way...None of this really made me see the world as the fucked up place it is; always has been and always will be.
I threw myself into my teenage years, experimented with drugs, drink, depression and radical left politics......dropped out of my education and went off with my equally leftwing boyfriend to live in a bedsit and plan the revolution whilst also marching against racism and other unpleasant stuff....Mainly what I saw there started to clue me in a little that some elements of society were perhaps not as innocent in intent as i had always kind of assumed....
Thatchers Britain (1990) on the front lines of a large demo looking at a row of very heavily armoured policemen none of whome were wearing their identity numbers on their epaulets....I'll leave the rest to your imagination, suffice it to say it was one helluva ruck....But even then when the dark underbelly of the capitalist system showed itself briefly to me, it was lightened somewhat by the other less agressive bobbys who were doing their damnedest to make sure the quarter of a million pissed off citizens who were exercising their right to be peacefully kicked in by mounted police got safely back to their coaches and vans afterwards, despite the rather tempestous riot that had erupted all around them....again I saw a great deal that showed me the strength and bravery of humans so even that didnt really sink my optimism.
Living in a poor northern milltown whose industry had long since fled, my fell and I eked out our days and saw whole regions die under the tories and the country felt tired. Sleaze corruption and degradation, the nation talked much of the changes that needed to come. The measures got crueller the lot of the poor darker and then the nation that heaved such a heavy sigh elected the same discredited government to another four years.....I was devastated. I could not believe that it had happened. Right up til the exit polls they were predicting a change of government and then......But...I picked myself up ....after a couple of years I could even talk about it without twitching.
Genocide and destruction rages in our world. A million dead Rwandans a million displaced Sudanese.....a hundred thousand fleeing conscripts massacred on the road to Basra....All of this horror and yet the world is as its ever been. We see it now as it happens, we even may care. But the world is as it has always been. Genocide and racial hatred, wars of conquest and malevalent occupiers. In a hundred years all the things that anger me in the news will be articles in history books and the world will be much as it is now.
A few years ago my fella was running down some stone steps and slipped...reached his hand out on instinct and fell with such force his hand gripped the rail in reflex and the whole weight was taken by his arm, dislocating his shoulder in a really nasty way.
We didnt know it was dislocated straight off. He was in a lot of pain though. It was such forceful dislocation that even ater it had been put back in it was strapped up for weeks and for 6 months it looked like he may have paralysed his right arm.
This completely threw me. The noise I had heard him make when I thought he had just taken a fall and banged his shoulder is still clear in my mind. We'd just had a row so when I heard that sound( which was strangely muted for a yell of agony)I was halfway between irritated and concerned thinking it a pissed off response to a minor fall.....Funny how these things stay with you. ....I waited with him at the emergency room for hours with him nearly blacking out with the pain and doing that guy thing of being really angry and prickly seeming when in severe distress.....
That day and night and the months of painful physio I realised how fucked up life could really feel. Such a helpless feeling. And all the what ifs....This fall the shoulder. What if it had been his neck?
All the horror of the world, all the pain of a sickly childhood and the disappointments of adulthood didnt really rock my equanimity but when the steps of my backyard became dangerous, so did my world.
Bingo! Excellent point, Dana. The reason we're ruminating about the global implosion, is that our own little worlds are relatively safe.
If there is a tornado in the area, you tune in the local weather, not the world news. ;)
For those of you who remember this thread and the stuff I brought up here (as well as the website from prison entries...) you may remember that I told you his lawyer contacted me in regards to whether or not he was sexually abused as a child, and I told her no, but he abused his cousins. I wondered aloud (here) what he was up to.
I found out:
This is edited for content....
FILED: February 21, 2001
IN THE COURT OF APPEALS OF THE STATE OF OREGON
TRAVIS D. PETERSEN,
Appellant,
v.
JOAN PALMATEER,
Superintendent,
Oregon State Penitentiary,
Respondent.
(97C-12551; CA A108297)
Appeal from Circuit Court, Marion County.
Don A. Dickey, Judge.
Argued and submitted December 7, 2000.
---
Petitioner appeals from a judgment denying his claims for post-conviction relief. He asserts that the post-conviction trial court erred in receiving evidence, consisting of his former attorney's affidavit and indigent defense billing records, that was shielded from disclosure by the attorney-client privilege. (1) We review for errors of law, ORS 138.220, and affirm.
In 1995, petitioner was charged with aggravated murder and several other offenses arising from a 1992 homicide. Under a plea agreement, petitioner pleaded guilty to one count of aggravated murder and was sentenced to life imprisonment without the possibility of parole. ORS 163.105. After his conviction, petitioner filed this petition for post-conviction relief, alleging that his trial counsel (counsel) provided him with constitutionally inadequate representation. Among other claims, petitioner alleged that counsel (1) did not conduct an adequate investigation because he failed to ascertain the facts and circumstances surrounding the incident and failed to determine if petitioner suffered from a mental disease or defect, which would have been a defense to the crimes with which petitioner originally was charged; (2) allowed petitioner to approve an illegal sentence in the plea agreement; (3) failed to inform petitioner that, as a consequence of his guilty plea, he could not appeal his conviction; (4) failed to ensure that all of the conditions of the plea agreement were put into writing, specifically an alleged agreement whereby the district attorney's office agreed not to prosecute petitioner's spouse in exchange for petitioner's guilty plea; and (5) coerced petitioner into a guilty plea that was not freely, voluntarily, and intelligently made.
---
The short version is that they tested him, he's not crazy, and his lawyer did a well enough job, and so they denied his appeal.
So that little letter from the lawyer was to help establish he was mental. What bullshit. They wanted me, the person he beat and raped and abused, to give them information to help him get out of prison?????
You gotta be kidding me.
Just keeping you updated. :)
Google works.
Dickhead's brother, we'll call him Shaun, has PM'd me. His wife found me from this thread. While this is somewhat alarming, it's not wholly unexpected. I'm still not sure how I feel about this. Shaun is on the dickhead's mother's side of the family, and that's the side of the family that had the (now) 17 year old.
Shaun is asking about the 17 year old. Through my cautious inquiries he has sent pics of himself (which went a long way toward making sure this was him and not somebody I don't want to be dealing with) and his wife, told me where he was, and where other members of the family are.
I have not told him where I am, although it's possible to narrow me down to one state from my posts here.
I'm very very wary, but at the same time, the 17 year old is an adult in less than 6 months, and while I don't want to "throw him to the wolves", my part in this is nearly ended. I've shielded him from as much backlash and influence as I could, and especially now that he is going to the ex, perhaps my role in that is over.
What do you guys think?
I'm confused... Shaun is his brother, but is "on dickhead's mother's side of the family?" Wouldn't a brother be on both sides of the family, just like Dickhead?
I'd ask the 17 year old. He probably remembers at least something of these people who raised him for awhile, and may feel very strongly one way or the other about whether he wants to be reunited with them. This is all assuming the 17 year old knows the whole story about Dickhead?
Well, I should have said closer to the mother's side. He hsn't mentioned much about the dad's side, but the dad's side I'm not really worried about anyway, since the dad's side had nothing to do with the 17 year old.
He knows the story, not the details. Due to all the drama right now, I'm not sure he is in a place emotionally to make a decision like that. I don't know. *sigh*
well maybe i can clear a few things up here i am as yall call him lol dickheads brother and as nikki has said i will go by shaun as for my "brother" well i am not wanting to have a damn thing to do with him and as far as i am concerened he can rot in jail and i hope like hell he does yes i am very bitter towards him and i have very good reasons that i will not go into detail about at this time i will just saay that there was alot of "stuff" that happened to me at dickheads hands but i want to claer a couple of things up here i am dickheads full brother (mom and dad divorced before i was born)i try and stay in contace with my dad and such as much as i can but it was my mother that raised me and that is the info that i have been giving to cougar and if she wants more all she has toi do is ask and she knows this as i have told her i do not want to cause anytrouble with her and my nephew i just want to get o know him if at all possiable and i have left the ball in cougars court and she will do as she sees fit and i would have it no other way i do however what the folks that have been folowing this thread and know about what is going on that i mean noone any harm i am nothing like dickhead and i know this sounds rather cheesy but i am pretty much the complete oppisite of him thankfully if yall have any questions i will answer as best i can i have nothing to hide and i wont do so all ya got to do is ask i will give you an answer weather you like that answer or not is another question lol ok i will close for now and let yall see this lol and see how many folks "gang up " on me lol just kidding chatch yall later :D
Not trying to gang up on you, I promise... but the occasional period or comma would be really helpful. ;)
reminds me of my three year old neice: "and then and then and then giggle giggle giggle and then and then and then........."
[QUOTE]
i have left the ball in cougars court and she will do as she sees fit [/QUOTE
Tymebomb28 - So if she asks you to go away quitely and stay away you'll do that? You should, you know, if that's what she thinks is best. - for her and the nephew.
yea i know my puction sucks lol i never got a good grade in english so sue me lol. <<<< is that better
well ,, dude not realy , and the folks here can tell you that if'n I am saying something about it , it must be REAL BAD !!!!
The seriousness that changed my life was a doctor appointment for my sixteen month old daughter. She was vomiting and had diahrrea. When the doc felt her abdomen and ordered a blood sample and cat scan I started freaking. Two days later she was diagnosed with a childhood cancer - stage 4 neuroblastoma and given a 20% chance to live. (primary tumor started in left kidney, cancer spread to lymph nodes, spine and skull bones.) After two surgeries, chemo and an autologous (no donor involvement)bone marrow transplant, she became an angel at the age of 2 1/2.
When someone asks how my day is (on a bad one), I always reply "I've had worse." Thinking of her with her diaper area too blistered from radiation to wear a diaper and her spitting out blood and tissue for a week from radiation burns inside makes any problems seem petty. But.....also I have to admit that at my lowest times during that 13 months, I did meet people who actually were worse off than I. There are worse things in life than dying.
And - it always makes me feel good - feel better about the people in this world - when I read about the parents in this forum who have disabled kids and the tremendous jobs they are doing helping the kids lead happy productive lives. They are my heros! They don't complain, they're always positive instead of negative. I know they have to get tired, but they don't let that hold them up from the demanding job they have been chosen to do. I always think of the poem about planning a trip to Paris and ending up in Holland instead........
and yes bretts honey i will quitely dissappear i wont like it but i will do it. lol i am not a stalker by any means
I don't think I want him to "go away", I just don't know how to handle it.
I told the 17 year old about it, and he's curious, but also wondering what to do. The first thing he asked is "Do they know where we are?"
I think I'll just keep in email contact with Shaun and when the 17 year old asks, I'll give him the address. That way I can get a little comfortability with Shaun over time and we can tackle this. I want the 17 year old to know the other part of his family, but due to circumstances it will be on his terms. *shrug* That's all I can do.
well couger that is all that i ask is keep an open mind to it all and go with the flow shall we say. i am glad that you are keeping an open mind so far and as i have told you i mean yall no harm and i definitly dont want to cause you any stress. like i have said i only want to get to know my nephew more than i did when he was a kid :D
well ,, dude not realy , and the folks here can tell you that if'n I am saying something about it , it must be REAL BAD !!!!
Zippyt, Man that is funny. And here I've been feelin' bad for busting on your spelling, but I see you laugh at it too.
Getting
sick earlier this year was the best thing to ever happen to me. God works in strange ways, sometimes.
like i have said i only want to get to know my nephew more than i did when he was a kid :D
If that's the case, I can certainly respect that. I have a nephew that I've never met, and two half brothers I haven't seen in over twenty years, so I understand. It can't be real easy for you, OC, you obviously just have your son's best interests in mind - good for you!
I've got my own domain now, so I'm checking my pages for broken links, and found a link to the ex was broken, so I dogpile'd him to get the new one and found this:
http://www.meet-an-inmate.com/male/travis-1895.htm
What I'm trippin on is the release date, 2015. It was my understanding he was in for life, no possibility of parole. Is there a way I can check for sure with authorities instead of a compulsive psychotic liar?
Tyme, do you know the skinny on this?
Christ, from reading that link, I'd marry him. :thepain3:
They call that being in jail? Let them stay a few days in the red river parish in LA. Boy what a ride.
Holy fuck!
I've read this thread from start to finish, and now seeing the link to the ex just freaked me out!!
That is just wrong. I'm sorry you ever had to be in the same space as this person.
Thanks, Seak.
Oregon doesn't have an online database, so I emailed them and just got a reply this morning:
Inst admission date... 10/11/1995
Earliest release date. No parole
So there you go. I was pretty sure he was lying, but wanted verification, just to make myself feel better. :) Carry on...
(And by the way, Bruce, he HATES bubblebaths, and wouldn't wash my hair if I begged him, but then, prison changes a man.....)
He probably just listed the stuff he remembered you wanting him to do, so he'd seem more sensitive.
I think he was just looking for opportunities to say things like "ride bareback" and "tending bushes."
He doesn't really seem like a horticulturalist.
That man hated to go outside. He watches too much TV in medium security prison.
What you don't have in prison is often what you want most.
I read that whole link/article as a complete joke. I mean, he's obviously kidding (lying would be the more accurate word) about everything. He likes chick flicks and wants to cuddle? The woman who would fall for that line of shit probably deserves what she gets.
And, for what it's worth, I think he looks like a low-life greaser white-trash wannabe who finally found the weight room. Um, er, gross.
He doesn't really seem like a horticulturalist.
Unless he's thinking of the old joke: You can lead a horticulture, but you can't make her think.
He probably just listed the stuff he remembered you wanting him to do, so he'd seem more sensitive.
You can learn to like anything once you've been made to do it often enough... :mg:
Unless he's thinking of the old joke: You can lead a horticulture, but you can't make her think.
Geez, I haven't heard that one in years.
What I don't get is why bother to put the ad up in the first place? He's not going anywhere soon, so what does he get out of it?
What I don't get is why bother to put the ad up in the first place? He's not going anywhere soon, so what does he get out of it?
Sociopaths love the thrill of the hunt. He's hunting to play mind games with someone. He set the trap and now he's waiting to see who falls in.
They need to have a spot for customer response.
They need to have a spot for customer response.
*giggles hysterically*
oh, that WOULD be rich, wouldn't it???
I can't even begin to think about what I'd write.
What I don't get is why bother to put the ad up in the first place? He's not going anywhere soon, so what does he get out of it?
Mail....and maybe money or a cake with a file in it. ;)
I'm not sure what all I've updated in the last 18 months, so if some of this is repeat, I apologize in advance.
The Boy, at age 17, (April 2005 ish) finally discovered girls. Which was a good thing, I was getting worried. I knew that as soon as he found girls, he would start to change. I was hoping that change would be a good thing, that he would mature. I was really excited, since this is when, I felt, I would excel as a parent. I had told him of the mistakes I had made as a teenager, he was smart enough to understand what I went through, and he would come out of things on the "he did better than me because of my experiences".
Boy, what a bunch of crap that turned out to be.
So Miss Thang was in ROTC with him. I never had a problem with her, but as soon as they started dating, he turned into a belligerent, disrespectful asshole, for lack of a better description.
The highlights:
We didn't have a land line, only cell phones, and on Easter break that year, ran up my cell phone bill to $600 talking to her. When there was a computer RIGHT THERE for him to IM her on. For free.
My phones got turned off, so I made him get a job to pay for my cell phone bill. He worked at Sonic down the road and talked to Miss Thang on IM.
She is a "Wiccan" (more in the "Witchcraft is like Charmed" sense than in the sense of what Wicca actually is), and made him a necklace out of paperclips, which he wore, but didn't have the slightest idea what it represented.
The beginning of the end what when during teh summer between Junior and Senior year of high school, over IM while I'm at work, he tells me that he's been downloading pictures of demons and now they are moving. I became alarmed, and asked him to take off the necklace, since I don't know what she was putting into it, and felt that it MAY be drawing bad things to him. He outright refused, and I told him that if he could tell me what it was, what the symbol represented, he can wear it (after I had it for a few hours). He said he didn't care what it represented, because Miss Thang gave it to him, and he was NOT taking it off.
This was the point it became defiance. I told him I didn't want to take it from him, he can have it in his pocket if he wished, but I didn't want him to wear it until he knew what it represented. He was again defiant. I told him that I would not accept this from him, that I had made a reasonable request, and that if he did not comply, I considered it defiant and disrespectful. He said he didn't care. So I asked him if he realized that I will not tolerate him living in my home, eating my food, etc, if he is going to disrespect me. He said, fine, I'll leave. I said, fine, put your key on the counter and take all your shit with you, because you're not coming back.
When I got home, his key was on the counter, and I didn't like it, but I sighed and accepted it. (I found the back door that we never used was unlocked, he unlocked it and was hoping I wouldn't notice. Sneaky shit.)
Next day, I get a call from Miss Thang's parents. He's at their house. The father is on the phone with me, and basically says "do you know that since he's under 18 you're legally responsible for him?" I said, "Do you know that in this state, harboring a runaway is a felony?" Basically, he had told her parents about how much of an ogre I was, and how I was "so mean". At the end of the day, I allowed him to come back. I told my husband that he now had "free reign" to do as he pleased with The Boy, because I was done. He had broken my heart, and I didn't want anything to do with him. He was only coming back because I was legally responsible.
Husband put him on "lockdown", meaning, you stay in your room, no TV, no radio, no games, for a week. And Husband demanded The Boy apologize to me. For every day The Boy didn't apologize, Husband would add a week of lockdown.
At three weeks of lockdown, I tell Husband I don't want a forced apology. He relents, but the three weeks stayed in effect. Since one of MY conditions was that he no longer used my computer ever, I went in and basically formatted/reinstalled, to wipe all that demon crap off the machine.
My best friend and her husband were staying with us at the time, and the husband was at the house (We were at work), when The Boy came out of the room to eat lunch, and attempted to get on MY computer to "print some stuff" from Miss Thang. When he realized I had formatted, reinstalled, and everything from Miss Thang was gone, he went insane. He called me a bunch of names, but the highlight was Mother Fucking Bitch.
Oh, no you didn't.
Huband tells my friend, and my friend tells me.
I walk in the front door and tell my husband to come get me before I kill this child and proceed into his room. What followed I'm not proud of, but suffice to say I told him to say it to my face. He wouldn't, so I told him if he can say it behind my back, but can't say it to my face, he's a pussy. If he's going to talk like a man, he better be able to back it up like a man. My husband pulled me out of the room, and my final words were, "Don't go to sleep."
He ran away again, but I didn't know it until the next morning. This time I called the police and reported him as a runaway. I found out that he had left the house that night, and had walked/run about 40 miles throughout the night/part of the day to the town that Miss Thang was vacationing at. He called her Stepmom and she went and picked him up, and took him to her house (where he went before). And no one called me. She had to drive by my house twice to get him and bring him back, and it didn't occur to her to bring him by.
I find this out at 6pm, so instead of dealing with them, I just went to the police station, gave them the parents names and address, and a Sgt. went out there and picked him up, and brought him back to the police station. This accomplished two things. One, hopefully scared the parents that the police were showing up to get my kid, maybe they need to not let him in/see their daughter/whatever, and two, impress upon The Boy that I wasn't playing anymore.
In this state, if you runaway twice, you are considered an "Undisciplined Juvenile" and the state takes the child out of the home and into foster care until the child is 21 years old. Not 18. I knew that, and the Sgt. told The Boy that. Sgt asked me and Husband what was going on, I told him, and he told The Boy that it sounded like he needed to get his head together and hang in for 6 months, until he was 18. I took him back only because of the cops.
I had been emailing the ex (David, Piggy's father) about The Boy and I told the ex it was either he took him or foster care, because The Boy was not going to listen, and would most likely runaway again. David decided to take the boy in, and threw in some jabs about what a shitty parent I was since I obviously didn't have control over my own son. He had come back from Iraq the month before and taken Piggy back, and had Bryan (my autistic son) with him for a vacation. He was supposed to return Bryan on July 23, so I proposed that we meet in Atlanta on that day (halfway between us), and swap children, Bryan for The Boy. He agreed.
Then, 4 days from then, he emails me and tells me he's no longer willing to make the drive, and he'll return Bryan when it's "financially convenient". So if I wanted him to take The Boy, and I wanted Bryan back, I had to make the full 18 hour each way trip.
So I did.
continued in part 2....
part 2....
I had told The Boy that if he wanted a relationship with me, that he had to start from scratch. He said he would.
I didn't hear a word from him until right before Christmas, when he started making nice so I would let him come for Christmas break. Everyone knew it wasn't because he wanted to see me. He wanted to see Miss Thang, who he had kept a long distance relationship with. I don't think so. He turned 18 right after Christmas.
Most of 2006 came and went, and I saw him once for a few minutes when Dave would bring Piggy by for visitation. I'd get sporadic phone calls, Miss Thang broke up with me, I'm dating some new girl, graduating in December, going to cooking school, etc. OK, good for you, hope it all works out.
Dave goes to Afghanistan in June, leaving The Boy in the house. Alone. Mostly because I refuse to take him back. Not that Dave asked, just that he already knew I wouldn't. The Boy has a job at McDonalds, Dave sets up the electric bill and the rent and all on auto draft, so all The Boy has to buy is food. He works at McDonalds, for shits sake, and gets food 1/2 off. What a deal for an 18 year old.
In October, he calls me and tells me that some girl he's been seeing, we'll call her Sam, thinks she is pregnant. She JUST turned 17. *sigh* Well, has she taken a pregnancy test? No, she "feels" she is pregnant. OK, how far along could she be here? Well, we just had sex last week.
....
Um, did you use a condom? No. But you had sex for the first time last week? Yes. And she "feels" she is pregnant. Yes, her period is 2 days late.
....
Well, first of all, go take a pregnancy test, and find out for sure.
If she is pregnant, oh crap.
But if she isn't pregnant, and I suspect she isn't, then #1 she's administering "The Test" to you, basically, "what will he do if I tell him I'm pregnant?" to determine what kind of man you are and #2 for shit's sake, use a condom!!
Ok, we'll get a test. Ok. Two weeks later, I get a phone call, she's not pregnant, and we're getting married next year when she turns 18. Her parents are hillbillys, and Christians, and hick farmers, blah blah blah. I talk to her and she sounds about as smart as a rock. She promises to send pictures. I reiterate to The Boy to use condoms, the last thing you need is to knock this girl up.
You can see where this is going.
He quits his job at McDonald's because it is unsafe, but he friend's dad works at Applebees and can get him a job there.
In November, The Boy's high school calls Dave in Afghanistan and tells him that The Boy has made some threats in school (like "I'ma going to bring one of my Dad's guns to school and kill all you sons a bitches" type threats), and has been expelled.
Dave calls him best friend in New Mexico, and he comes to the house, finds out that The Boy has let 4 of his friends move in, and has been having sex with Sam on Dave's bed. Like we didn't know that was going to happen. So on orders from Dave, the friend throws all The Boy's crap on the lawn and changes the locks, takes the key from The Boy, and leaves.
Understand I am getting all this information through my Mother, who is the only person David will talk to. No one has called me and told me anything except her. David has called to speak to Piggy, but hasn't said a word about it. Still hasn't to this day.
At this point, this is all I know. I call my sister, and advise that if The Boy contacts her to let us (me and Mom) know, because as far as we know, the Boy is now homeless in the Winter. And so much for graduation in December.
I discuss the situation with my husband, and we decide we can't take him in, because of the extremely adverse reaction it would have on my autistic son. We've just got him to the point that he's getting better, he's learning, and through training, we have real hope that he'll be able to make it on his own by the time he's 25. We don't want to now bring The Boy's destructive behavior and compulsive lying back into our home to influence Bryan. The Boy is 18, going to be 19 next month (at the time), whereas Bryan is 13. We have to protect Bryan now. The Boy had his shot, he blew it.
My mother will also not take The Boy in, because of my nephew. He turned out ok, but there was a while there he was living with my mom, and he put her through some crap. So he ruined it for The Boy.
My Sister was never asked, but I doubt she would. I could prolly guilt her into it, since I took my nephew in at one point, but I wasn't going to do that. My opinion is that The Boy screwed up a good thing, and he needs to learn that choices have consequences. Obviously he hadn't learned it from me, maybe he would learn it from Dave.
A month passes, it's now a few weeks before Christmas. The Boy calls me out of the blue and leaves a voice mail. "I'm fine, staying with Sam's parents, you're going to be a grandma, give me a call."
Dave returns home from Afghanistan. He calls my mother and tells her that the police got a search warrant after The Boy made threats, and searched his home while he was away, and thank God he was so meticulous about putting his guns in a locked safe, or shit would have hit the fan. A black man in a very southern state with the arsenal he has would NOT look good.
So I call The Boy back, and Sam is, he says, in fact, pregnant, and is due in August. Her parents have kicked him out when Dave got home, thinking Dave would take him back in, but there is no way, Dave says, after what you've done. So The Boy goes back to the parents house. So I tell him get a job, so you can get the money to move out of there, etc.
A week later, he calls me again, Sam's exboyfriend, Josh, who is in the Army, and stationed in Germany, is on leave and visiting. She has broken up with The Boy and tells him she is going to take the baby to Germany in October, when she turns 18, and live with Josh.
So apparently the wedding is off.
The parents have not kicked him out, and at this point I'm pissed. We have no proof this baby is his, #1. #2, obviously she's mental and he's going to have to get his shit together. I make references to her being a ho and that "If these hicks" (as HE called them) "are going to kick you out, you need money to get a place." I told him if the baby isn't his, he needs to cut and run. As usual, he didn't listen.
He calls me back the next day, and is pissed that I called her a ho and her parents hicks, and proceeds to tell me that "the monster [I] married and divorced [David] told him to do the same thing [cut and run], so since [we] said the same thing, what does that make [me]?"
(In his warped butchering of the language, he was trying to call me a monster without calling me a monster. He learned what happens when he calls me names out right.)
Sam gets on the phone and wants to know where I get off calling her a ho, when I "abandoned [The Boy] thousands of miles away. What kind of mother are you?"
I try to explain first of all, that The Boy is no longer her boyfriend, so why the hell is she talking to me, and then try to explain that the place he is in now is the result of his choices, and that hey, if you're pregnant by your boyfriend, then leave him to screw your exboyfriend, IMO, you're a ho. I calls em like I sees em.
The phones broke up, and after 3 dropped calls during this conversation, I finally give up. He hasn't called since.
Then I get this email last week.
Hello i dont know if this is your address still but i
think ill give it a shot any way i dont know what is
true and what is not any more so im going with what i
know and what i think now tell me if im rong. you plan
to take my ex to court and take my child away from her
and me. thats what im told i dont know so i could be
rong. what has happend so far is she has left me you
know this she is also playing a game with my head
trying to make me take her back to only probly leave
me again when he comes back i know this so im not
realy falling for it i hope he comes back drunk off
his ass and beats the mess out of her but thats just
me she has picked up some drug use which i dont know
what kind but i do know that what she is doing when
she is pregnent is also considerd in LA as Child
niglect and cruilty so i tell her docter he takes a
sampal puts it on her fial she is a drug user she has
the baby hoping there is not much rong with it from
her dumb ass drug useing she goes to jail i get the
kid i lafe play and have a marry old time dad knows
this he tells me to wait and see what happens good
thinking but the long i wait the more drugs she puts
in her sistem and the more fucked up in the head my
kid is going to be so thats what i got on my plate so
far and theres more to come from the bad messy life of
justin Jackson cus im joining the army almost there
just need 2 things but the main point of this hole
email is to find out if you are in deed going to try
and take me to court to get my kid cus if you are i
need to start thinking cus i do admit that in a game
like this playing with ppls minds and fucking them
over whith out much knowing you are a vary good
aponent and as soon as you tell me your trying to take
my kid the game begins as you would put it. Now i dont
mean to sound like a dick rood or come off thretaning
or pushy i just want a fast answer and to be for wornd
of what is going to happen.
I didn't touch that at all, that's how he writes.
My reply:
Who told you I was going to try to take you to court
to get the baby away from you?
I'll respond to the rest of this when you answer that.
part 3....
I dont see how that is your biz thats what i was told
from a consernd person who knowes you and has spoken
to you that person told me to watch my ass cus you
were up to somthing and from the questions you asked
me last time we spoke i have reson to beleave that
court may be your chosen cors of action in this matter
cus from what i know you think im not responibal enuff
to have a kid and you think the childs mother is a
slut who sleeps around so i think you think you have
grounds to do this and its somthing i think you might
try and do it dont matter were i hurd it or who i hurd
it from what matters is i hurd it so im coming to the
person its about to get a strait forwerd adult answer
if you dont want to answer the quest thats fine ill
assume the worst and start to take the steps to keep
my child from the mother and you becuse i dont think
its right for you to try and raise my child in the way
you like to raise children i want my child raised my
way and that is a way you and the mother will not like
you would like it more then the mother but you would
still not like it cus its a few things you did not do
with me and i see i would have come out better if you
would to do theis things the mother does not agree
with the way i have planed to rais my kid so i will
have to take the child from her and her parents by
legal force and if i must to keep you out of this and
to stop you from trying to get in all of this bull
shit drama i will do what i think is needed to keep
you the farthest away from my kid cus right now the
mother is a less thret to me then you cus i already
have her ass in the frying pan but to keep you out of
this will be a bit harder now im not saying you wont
see it i am not saying it wont know of you but i will
not let it get any were near the bull shit between me
and you and any thing we have and still do disagree on
i have spoken with dad he is not realy happy about any
of this but if i mind my Ps and Qs i think he might be
willing to help me with this if i ask it of him cus he
has already given me advise about this.so my question
still stands. Are you trying or going to try to take
me to court for the custudy of my child? If you fear
that the mother is going to be a problem trust me she
wont be cus i have many aces up my sleave that no one
knowes of i have spoken with her doc and i have spoken
with her family i know every thing she does and i have
every thing she does on recorder and on legal
documentation to with my word I fuck her life over to
a point of she will never have my kid less i give
consent and i wont so now this is between me and you
and if you are as involved in this as i think you want
to be then i now have somthing to start planing and
conter act what ever you might throw at me now i love
you your my mommy do we get along real well NO you say
stuff that makes me mad and i say stuff that makes you
T Totaly pissed but there is comen ground some were
and it just needs to be found and i dont think it will
be in any of my relation ships my love life or my
socel life so what i think we need to do is find some
comen ground and start from there. Im geting off
topice " Dont change the subject just answer the
fucken question" LOL any way im at the library and i
got like 5 min left on this computer so ill check my
mail saterday see if you got this by then ill talk to
ya later By the way if its a Boy his name will be
Alexander Lee if its a Girl it will be Elizabith Rose.
Love YA talk to Ya later Peace out
My reply:
If someone is saying something about me, it's my biz.
The fact that you won't name names means you're lying.
When you choose to answer my question, I'll answer yours.
Mom.
Then I got this, the last one so far.
Fine you want names it was Sam the girl you spoke to
the night i called you at the wedding when she hung up
after talking to you the first thing she told me is
your mom said she is going to try and take every one
to court and take the baby now being that this info is
coming from her i dont know what to beleave she could
have twisted your words so this is my reason for
coming to you with this cus then i can get a strait
answer and know for sure being that its from her she
could just be trying to make me draw all my atention
to you knowing we dont get along now do i realy care
that you take her to court for what ever right now i
dont realy give a flying fuck but if you want my kid
im telling ya now lock on your horns good and hard cus
we guna but heads and being this is my child i wont
give in i wont give it to you i will not let it go
throw a shit life full of lies betrail and abandenment
like i have i will not alow my child to be raised in
any way shap or form like i was my child will always
know his real family my child will have contact with
who he/she wants and nothing family wise will be with
held from him/her you do not know of what is taking
place down here so in my mind you will lie to it make
up storys and the child will grow to beleave you are
right and it will grow to hate the parents like i have
grown to hate my father from you and your storys for
over 10 years you have poisend my mind from your own
hate and iscust for people i refuse to allow my child
to come in to this world with out some one will stand
by it for ever and eternity and you have shown me
threw your own acts that when things get bad you
abanden the problem or run from it you dont solve any
problems you leave them and hope your life gets better
i wont let you do it to my kid i have taken the first
few steps on to a new road there is no turning back
there is no runing from my problems now my question is
what do you do and were do you stand in this behind me
watching or in my way making me have to fight you and
every one else. my list of freands grows thin thats
what i was looking for when i called you last and what
i got was rood arigent bitching from the one person i
thought would be abel to help the most cus you were in
a simelar situation but still not the same all i get
is shes a hoe leave her and run go far far away and
dont look back if that is your addvise then im telling
you now im not taking it i did not run when every one
who could hurt me was told i did not run when she left
i did not run when i finaly saw that not one damn
person on this planet is on my side i stand alone
going agenst many and now when i look like i have
already lost when i stand alone i will fight for what
i see to right and no one can stop me i wont let any
thing stand in my way so help me or leave me and if
you leave dont be shocked when i dont look back.
Well, The Boy knows how to push my buttons.
Now, you guys know what his father did, from the previous posts, and I never lied to the boy, ever.
I haven't replied to this email, because I don't even know where to start.
No, I haven't handled things as I would have liked to all the time, but still, ... just.... ugh.
So. Am I crazy? A bad mother? Completely wrong? How should I respond? Should I respond at all? Suggestions?
The Boy is working himself up into a fine froth by thinking you really intend to go to court and try to get custody of his child. If you don't (I assume Sam is lying 100% here) I would reply simply with that fact.
Ignore the rest of it for the time being, come back to it bit by bit when it is less raw. If you start answering hurtful things he has written as if they are reasonable statements/ questions the situation will be escalated even further.
There's no advice I can give. But I'm never complaining about my life ever again.
If I read this correctly, this whole thing started when you got freaked out that a Charmed-style "wiccan" was casting paperclip spells, and threw him out of the house for wearing a necklace?
I don't think you should be surprised if he finds it easy to believe that you may act irrationally.
No, I threw him out of the house because he was being openly defiant and disrespectful. He knew through many many times of me telling him before hand, "I will not tolerate disrespect or defiance in my home, from you or anyone else. If you want to live here, you live by my rules. Period." He understood that, and chose to directly defy me.
(I don't think I was being unreasonable by asking him to know what the symbol on the necklace meant before displaying it. It's like someone wearing a cross but not knowing what it stands for. I didn't hve a problem with him wearing it IF he understood what it meant.)
In the IM logs (which I still have), I tell him again, "Do you understand that you cannot live in my home if you are being defiant, and that this act of refusing to learn about the necklace or take it off is considered being defiant?" "yes"
I don't think that's me being irrational.
Being so freaked out about a necklace that you throw a child out of home is irrational.
I'm with Sunday Girl on this one. When a small fire flares up, stamp it out immediately. Don't throw gasoline on it. Your son was told a lie (I'm assuming it's a lie from the context) that you wanted to take his child away from him. You should tell him that it's a lie right away. If you don't, your silence makes him think it is true. If you had told him in the beginning that it was a lie, he wouldn't have responded with that hurtful e-mail. He still thinks you are planning on taking his child from him. Ignore the hurtful e-mail for now, and tell your son that he has been misinformed. You have no intention of taking his child.
It also might help if you referred to him as your "son," not "The Boy." Labels like that will build a bigger wall between the two of you.
...this act of refusing to learn about the necklace or take it off is considered being defiant...
Still, this might be a "pick your battles" thing.
As a learn-by-example behavior, note that "defiant" can parallel "abritrarily stubborn".
OC- good to hear from you, too bad it isn't under better circumstances...
You need to maintain your level of trust with him, by continuing to not lie to him.
#1, tell him that you do not plan to take the child away from him/them.
#2, when the child is born, a paternity test is needed before anyone should make any moves regarding the future of that child. When is it due?
#3 Your son right now seems to be willing to do what it takes to be a good parent. Let him know what that is going to entail. Reliable income, reliable housing etc. He needs to get his ducks in a row before his [SIZE="1"](potentially)[/SIZE] child arrives. If he can prove he is prepared for fatherhood better than the mother is, it may help him should custody issues arise. <-- but that may be getting ahead of yourself.
My mother has advised him in a telephone conversation a few nights ago that I have no intention to take the child (I won't say his until I see DNA results, and I told him that.)
If he would have come at me with "Sam told me....." from the beginning, this would have been a very different email from my end. He's trying to be hurtful on purpose. I don't have to take this from anyone, let alone a child.
At this point, I'm so angry that I haven't responded. I know me. If I respond when I'm angry, it will not be coherent, it will be meant to hurt him back. He knows where my buttons are, but I also know where his are. And right now I want to hurt him back, so I'm just going to leave it alone for awhile; try to take the "high road".
He has been made aware that I don't want the child, and during the course of that conversation with my mother, he revealed that David took him back in three weeks ago.
Please also understand (I don't know if this was made clear earlier) the child is a pathological liar. If he told me the sky was blue I'd have to go check.
There is a very real possibility, and I mean this in all seriousness, that this girlfriend may not be pregnant at all, and he's trying to goad me. He feels like I abandoned him when I took him to David's, so he's going to "get back at me" the only way he knows how...by hurting me with his words. This hypothesis (or some form similar) has been proposed by my mother, my sister, my husband, and my best friend.
IF there is a child, and IF it turns out to be his, I've already given him the best advise I can: get a job now, get a place to live now, and position yourself into a position where you look like a more responsible person than this girl who lives with her "Pillar of the Community Christian" parents.
As if.
And as far as calling him my son rather than The Boy, well, I don't feel very maternal toward him right now. I know that I'm a very emotional person, but due to the circumstances with his early childhood (mentioned a few pages back), I never really bonded with him in the first place. Honestly, it wouldn't be hard for me to completely cut him out of my life at this point. I would be disappointed for awhile, but really, it may be for my greater mental health in the long run.
I don't know. Right now I'm just waiting to see what the next move is. I take all he says with a huge grain of salt. I guess we'll see how it pans out.
First off, for you newer Cellarites, OC has been around the block a time or two, and she knows from magick, and those who use it. *You* don't have to believe in it if those involved do. That said, if OC thought the necklace was having an adverse affect on The Boy (try to remember that he thought computer pictures were becoming living demons, apparently), then she, knowing what she knows and believing what she believes, was well within her rights as a custodial parent and mother to make The Boy remove said item.
When The Boy refused to do so, he was essentially throwing off the yoke of parental restraint. At this point, he has accepted responsbility for himself, and whatever comes afterward. Had he understood one single thing *about* Wicca, he would have known this first off, because self-responsibility and self-determination are basic, fundamental tenets of the path, well before you ever start mucking around with magick.
The Boy told her to go stuff herself, and in a couple of different, disrespectful ways. No apologies seem to be forthcoming, and his subsequent contacts seem designed to either provoke, defend or mine for information...none of it intended to reconcile between them. In the meantime, The Boy has continued to screw up his life, and he's managed to find a girl who is more than happy to help him maximize the drama in all of this, probably because it makes her that much more the center of *everyone's* attentions. You know the old saying, "Don't feed the troll"? HickHo is looking to be fed, folks.
OC - I know it hurts, I know you're going to be asking yourself if what you've done was right, and I know you feel like a shitty mother. Raising kids is easy; building grownups is not. The Boy is now in the process of becoming The Man. You've been down this path before in your own life, and The Boy is uninterested in what you learned through so much pain along the way. Therefore, let him learn his own lessons, take his own responsibility, and...if he survives the experience...be able to look back someday and realize that he could have saved a lot of trouble if he'd listened. Perhaps he will then be able to impart those lessons to his own progeny.
Hang in there.
Jackie is currently housing a girl whose parents threw her out for not accepting Jesus Christ as her Lord and Savior.
Of course she was 18 and there were no necklaces involved.
You want to parent that way, don't come lookin' to me for advice. Jackie knows how I support the strong single moms with button-pushin' boys, but only the ones who take kids in, not the ones who throw 'em out as a parenting method.
Lemme see if I've got this right. This is the boy who you gave up for adoption and didn't see till he was 7 after his father murdered someone, dismembered the body and spread parts all over, right?
Then, after a whole bunch of bullshit between YOUR SON and you, he reached out in a time of need - as immature and insane seeming as it may have been and you are not responding because of a necklace his girlfriend gave him that he chose not to take off as a teenager (18 I think).
Just trying to get things straight here before I consider offering any input.
Lemme see if I've got this right. This is the boy who you gave up for adoption and didn't see till he was 7 after his father murdered someone, dismembered the body and spread parts all over, right?
Essentially, yes.
Then, after a whole bunch of bullshit between YOUR SON and you, he reached out in a time of need - as immature and insane seeming as it may have been and you are not responding because of a necklace his girlfriend gave him that he chose not to take off as a teenager (18 I think).
No.
After a whole bunch of bullshit between us, when he did nothing but disrespect me and call me names in my own home while he was completely dependant upon me for his care, shelter and other, it became (since he was going to run away again) a choice of either watch him go into foster care (mandated by the state since he is by law considered an undisciplined juvenile) or send him to David's house.
David was kind enough and cares enough about him to take him into his home. When this happened, he not ONCE made an effort to "rebuild our relationship", apologize for ANYTHING he'd done, or even accept responsibility for ANY choices he made.
The incident of the necklace 18 months ago was simply the proverbial straw, when his passive-aggressive defiance that I had been dealing with for some time finally became open rebellion.
And I'm not responding because *I know* I'm too hurt and pissed off to do anything constructive right now. If I were to respond at this point, it would be a bad thing. I'm not ruling out responding later. Just that I don't think I should do it right now.
Just trying to get things straight here before I consider offering any input.
I appreciate that.
Jackie is currently housing a girl whose parents threw her out for not accepting Jesus Christ as her Lord and Savior.
Justin chose not to do that either, but that's not why I kicked him out.
Of course she was 18 and there were no necklaces involved.
I really don't undertand why everyone is focused on the necklace and is completely ignoring everything else.
You want to parent that way, don't come lookin' to me for advice.
Parent what way, exactly? Demanding a minimum of respect? Not tolerating him cursing me out? Letting him go to Dave's as opposed to foster care?
Jackie knows how I support the strong single moms with button-pushin' boys, but only the ones who take kids in, not the ones who throw 'em out as a parenting method.
I didn't throw him out as a parenting method, it was that or foster care. Living with the man he'd called dad for 12 years or going to the home of complete strangers until he was 21 years old (4 years at the time). Hmmmmm..
I really don't undertand why everyone is focused on the necklace and is completely ignoring everything else.
Because in your telling of the tale the paper-clip necklace plays a pivotal role in the story.
I can't speak for the others, but your reported behavior in relation to this particular incident paints you a tad, with all due respect, bat-shit insane.
If he was seeing things that weren't there (schizophrenia, or schizo-type personality disorder?), that seems like it might've been time to send him for some therapy.
Also, you seem to see things in a very black and white way. Instead of being tolerant it seems like your modus-operandi is to cut deep and hard.
The kid didn't reach out to mend your relationship (not that the burden should fall to hard on someone who is still very young and probably doesn't understand how deeply he may regret the past)? He sounds damaged enough to not know how.
(This is all based on the last couple of OC's posts. I really am not sure I want to post it, but here it goes despite the misgivings.)
You gave him a my-way-or-leave-the-house ultimatum over a necklace when he was 17.
When he chose to leave you took it as stupidly sneaky for him to provide his own way back in. (Not "a boy in trouble is still asking, in his own way, for my support")
You irrationally hated his girlfriend, disrespected her belief systems, and called her defiling names because of his changes in behavior.
You called him a pussy for not being directly confrontational with you. You called him worse when he *was* confrontational. And now you wonder why he's passive-aggressive?? That's a classic response to "You're gonna get it if you do -- and you're gonna get it worse if you don't." His only way to control the situation is to do withdraw.
First off, for you newer Cellarites, OC has been around the block a time or two, and she knows from magick, and those who use it. *You* don't have to believe in it if those involved do. That said, if OC thought the necklace was having an adverse affect on The Boy (try to remember that he thought computer pictures were becoming living demons, apparently), then she, knowing what she knows and believing what she believes, was well within her rights as a custodial parent and mother to make The Boy remove said item.
And only until he learned what it meant and how it could be used, in an effort to teach him how to keep himself safe from the things he was *not* safe from. All he had to do was ask Miss Thang, and she would have told him her answer, and I probably would have accepted it enough to let him wear it, while giving him further education.
When The Boy refused to do so, he was essentially throwing off the yoke of parental restraint. At this point, he has accepted responsbility for himself, and whatever comes afterward. Had he understood one single thing *about* Wicca, he would have known this first off, because self-responsibility and self-determination are basic, fundamental tenets of the path, well before you ever start mucking around with magick.
He straight up told me that he didn't care about Wicca, didn't want to hear about Christianity. I told him if he didn't care about Wicca, he needs to remove a Wiccan religious symbol from his neck. It's the equivalent of blaspheme. Why would you even want to wear it if you're not a believer in that religion?
The Boy told her to go stuff herself, and in a couple of different, disrespectful ways. No apologies seem to be forthcoming, and his subsequent contacts seem designed to either provoke, defend or mine for information...none of it intended to reconcile between them. In the meantime, The Boy has continued to screw up his life, and he's managed to find a girl who is more than happy to help him maximize the drama in all of this, probably because it makes her that much more the center of *everyone's* attentions. You know the old saying, "Don't feed the troll"? HickHo is looking to be fed, folks.
Thank you for noticing that. It was a crucial thing for me that nobody else seems to recognize.
OC - I know it hurts, I know you're going to be asking yourself if what you've done was right, and I know you feel like a shitty mother.
I do. And David telling me for years that I am isn't helping. One small triumph, my mother was talking to him a few weeks ago and said something along the lines of, "Now do you see why she sent him to you?" and he said, "yes, now I understand." this man, who has propped himself up on being the more mature one, more responsible one, better caretaker, better parent, was not able to do better than I did. It may seem like a petty thing, but it was a vindication for me.
Raising kids is easy; building grownups is not. The Boy is now in the process of becoming The Man. You've been down this path before in your own life, and The Boy is uninterested in what you learned through so much pain along the way.
If you only knew how I agonized over what to tell him when, how to tell him, what effect it would have on him. It's not an easy thing to tell your son his father is a murderer and is never getting out of prison. It's worse when you have to tell him that he killed the man I was going to marry. Even worse, how he did it. And that he isn't sorry. And doesn't even want to see his son. Ever.
Therefore, let him learn his own lessons, take his own responsibility, and...if he survives the experience...be able to look back someday and realize that he could have saved a lot of trouble if he'd listened. Perhaps he will then be able to impart those lessons to his own progeny.
It's so hard. It's hard because it's obvious that he isn't learning from anything I told him. Oh, he took it in, then discarded it.
I suppose there are very few of us that actually listened to our parents and didn't think our way was better, easier, faster. It's just that he's doing it on such a monumental scale.
And that's why I'm having a hard time giving him advice yet again. I *know* he's not going to do what I tell him he needs to do, because I already have, and he hasn't done it. His grandmother has told him to do the same thing, he hasn't done it. Dave tells him the same thing, and he hasn't done it.
He told me he wanted me to be happy for him.
I've always been honest with him. I asked him what part I was supposed to be happy about. the fact he was there at all and not living with me? Can't be happy about that. The fact that he had sex with this girl unmarried? I can't be happy about that. The fact that he let his mouth ramble at school so he got expelled and now has a much harder road to pave? Can't be happy about that. The fact that after the initial scare and all my warnings, his grandmother's warnings, and basic common freaking sense, he has unprotected sex with this 16 year old girl when he's 18? Can't be happy about ANY of that. The fact that she got pregnant? Are you kidding me? The fact that she's now broken up with him and going to take (what could be) his child to Germany with her ex boyfriend?
Now I find out she's doing drugs while pregnant with (what could be) his child?
What part of this is supposed to make me happy? What part of that can I, as a parent, be happy about?
Every parent makes mistakes. I've certainly made my fair share, not just as a parent, but in life. But I have ALWAYS paid for them. He doesn't even want to accept the responsibility for even the reasons he went to Dave's.
It's not like I had alot of rules, people. Clean your room, go to school, do your homework, clean up after yourself, do your own laundry. Whenever he went out, he took the phone so if he needed a ride home, he could call me. One of his friend's dads owned a beer bar downtown, and his friend was the DJ. I let him hang out with his friend (behind the DJ cage) until 3am, when his friend would bring him home. I let him see Miss Thang whenever he wanted, as long as his chores were done and he was keeping up on his job and school. He got to keep his WHOLE paycheck (after paying me back for the phone bill he ran up.) She would come over on the weekends, and he would cook for us, since he loves cooking. He was in ROTC and went to camps and events out of state. It's not like I was this huge ogre.
Until he got disrespectful. Ditching school. Telling me he's going to work and turns out he was at Miss Things house. Lying about where he was going, coming back late. Picking on his little brother (the autistic one) and I don't mean like how brothers pick on brothers, I mean he would have bruises.
Let me give you another example. By this time, I was logging his MSN. I didn't read them until I had a reason, but I wanted to have them just in case I did have a reason. When he lied about going to work when he was actually at Miss Thangs house, I finally started reading them. He told her, "Yeah, I told my mom to kiss my white ass when she told me I couldn't come see you because it was a school night. She cried and stuff and I just walked out. Like she's going to do anything to me." (that's a paraphrase)
Now, I understand the boy is going to try to make himself look big and bad to his girlfriend, but this was, in my mind, completely over the top. I didn't say anything to him, because I didn't want him to know I was logging, or that I had read it. It was shortly after this that the necklace thing happened.
I'm rambling. I don't even remember what the point I was trying to make is anymore. I suppose I need to be ready for the people that think I'm some monster for the way I reacted. But really, read the WHOLE thread first, then try to put yourself into my shoes before you comment.
Hang in there.
[cuddle] Thanks, Patrick. I've missed you and Bruce the most while I was gone. I hope things are going well for you and Mrs. 'Spode and your family. Bryan is really gaining progress, and we have him in regular classes now. The doctors are testing him in February to see if they want to upgrade him from Autistic to formally calling him an Asperger's. (We knew for years he was displaying Asperger's symptoms, but they're going to see if they want to change his "label".) Keep your fingers crossed for us. :)
You gave him a my-way-or-leave-the-house ultimatum over a necklace when he was 17.
No. I gave him a my way or the highway over him being openly disrespectful and defiant of me, my rules, in MY home.
When he chose to leave you took it as stupidly sneaky for him to provide his own way back in. (Not "a boy in trouble is still asking, in his own way, for my support")
No, he did it strictly so that he could come back while I was at work at get the rest of his stuff that he didn't take when he left the first time. He told my husband as much when he DID come back the first time.
You irrationally hated his girlfriend, disrespected her belief systems, and called her defiling names because of his changes in behavior.
I never hated her. I hated how my son behaved when he was with her. (I'm assuming you mean the one here, not the pregnant one down there.) I never disrespected her belief systems. I used to be a high priestess in her belief system. In fact, she once asked me to teach her about her belief system. I told her I no longer practiced, and why, and she was fine with that.
You called him a pussy for not being directly confrontational with you. You called him worse when he *was* confrontational. And now you wonder why he's passive-aggressive?? That's a classic response to "You're gonna get it if you do -- and you're gonna get it worse if you don't." His only way to control the situation is to do withdraw.
I'm not proud of how I handled that. I lost my cool and yes, I overreacted. I was stressed out from all of the stuff that had happened, and all of this going on while I've got my other kids to worry about, my friend and her husband and newborn baby staying with us, shit going down at work, and basically life in general. It's not like all these events happened in a vaccuum. I told you all that in an effort to be as fair and balanced in my posts as I can. I don't "wonder why he's passive aggressive". He's got way more reasons to be passive-aggressive than me calling him a pussy when he won't back up his mouth.
As I said, everything was fine until he started dating Miss Thang and the dick took over day to day functions. I don't like the dick, and after REPEATED requests for him to fall in line, and HOURS of talking and trying to reason with him, he did it anyway. I had lost positive control and it was literally a matter of foster care or Dave's house.
Which would you have had me do?
Because in your telling of the tale the paper-clip necklace plays a pivotal role in the story.
It's pivotal in the sense that it was an open, in your face rebellion on his part. A rebellion he knew the consequences of before he started down that road. He made the choice to defy me, knowing what my reaction would be. It was this decision that set him on this path.
I can't speak for the others, but your reported behavior in relation to this particular incident paints you a tad, with all due respect, bat-shit insane.
I don't see it. I had told him and told him and he KNEW how I would react, he KNEW it meant he would have to leave. I told him that RIGHT before he made his decision! Am I supposed to then say, oh, well, I guess I shouldn't do what I've told you time and time I again I would do in this situation. I'm sorry, I would not, and IMO, should not have relented and accepted this openly hostile, disrespectful behavior.
If I tell you every day that if you press the blue button I will slap you, and one day you press the button, if I'm consistant, I need to slap you. What happens if I don't slap you? You can't trust my word, and then ANYTHING I've said up to that point, and anything after is nullified.
He pressed the button. I slapped him.
If he was seeing things that weren't there (schizophrenia, or schizo-type personality disorder?), that seems like it might've been time to send him for some therapy.
Two things here.... One, I had tried to send him for therapy twice before, for the whole back story purposes, and he lied so much to the therapists that they told me not to bother to waste my money, because he didn't want help and until he did there was nothing they could do.
Two, because of my prior beliefs, and the beliefs held by the person that made the necklace, I was pretty sure that a mental disorder was not the case here. Demons exist, whether you believe it or not. Been there, seen that, and know how to fix it. Can't fix it unless the person involved wants it fixed, too.
Also, you seem to see things in a very black and white way. Instead of being tolerant it seems like your modus-operandi is to cut deep and hard.
This is pretty accurate. I tend to see things in those terms. I do see in grey in things, but generally it's on a spectrum, and on one side of the middle line or the other. It's been a hard life, with hard experiences that not many people (God willing) will have to endure. (If you didn't read the whole thread, you're missing that part of the story.) Life is hard, and you get bitch slapped when you make the wrong decisions. I learned it early, and I tried, God knows I tried, to warn him. To tell him when I screwed up. To show him the potholes in an effort to get him to go around them. But he didn't believe me.
The kid didn't reach out to mend your relationship (not that the burden should fall to hard on someone who is still very young and probably doesn't understand how deeply he may regret the past)? He sounds damaged enough to not know how.
First, I don't consider 17.5 to be "very young". My duaghter is 9, she is very young. He was man enough to call me a mother fucking bitch in my house, he can be man enough to at least apologize. (Which to this day he's never done, even when my husband and mother told him it might help.) He's man enough to have a child and he's willing (see emails) to go toe to toe to keep it. But he's not man enough to send me an email to let me know how he's doing? I have a problem with your assertion.
(This is all based on the last couple of OC's posts. I really am not sure I want to post it, but here it goes despite the misgivings.)
It just occurred to me that I'm doing alot of defending myself. I asked for opinion, and I got it, and now I feel like I'm arguing. In the great big scheme of things I guess I was looking for more Els and less UT. My main worry here is that you don't understand everything that was going on. The necklace wasn't the ONLY thing, it was the LAST of a long line of things, and the FIRST time he was openly defiant.
I guess what I really wanted suggestion on was the email portion of the posts, not "Gee, you sure fucked up by letting it get to this point." I figured that part out for myself, my question is, knowing what you know, what course do I take now?
I don't see it. I had told him and told him and he KNEW how I would react, he KNEW it meant he would have to leave. I told him that RIGHT before he made his decision!
That's part of the insanity. You told him that if he wore a necklace his girlfriend made for him, you would kick him out of the house.
The part you don't want to hear [SIZE="1"]might[/SIZE] be important. Advice (that you've asked for!) is another thing that doesn't exist in a vacuum.
For starts Jackie's lad is 19 and has as many if not more issues as an ADHD sufferer with a dad who, unfortunately, survived and thrived to turn the kids against her systematically and provide no support. So I have seen it. I have seen the boy screaming at the top of his lungs that he hates her, in the back of my vehicle, and resisted the urge to stop the truck right there and then and toss him out in the middle of nowhere. Because even though he's 19, he's a boy, and he's confused. This is what ADHD boys with father issues are. (Plus, it's not my business)
Of course my best parenting decision ever was not to become one. So what do I know? Nothing. That said,
= I would stop putting control issues into "man/not-a-man/pussy" terms at all. You don't do the lad any favors by accidentally or on-purpose emasculating him in the middle of trying to figure it all out. And you're not a man, if I may be so bold, and so you really have no idea. So neither does he.
= You don't like each other. You press each other's buttons. When was that license for you to indignantly give up before the job of parenting was done? Wasn't it harder because he needed you more than you thought? Wasn't that need fulfilling to you in some way? Isn't that the root of what it is to be a parent?
= If you were given the terms of living with someone for free but under their bizarre and strict rules, including determining the nature and extent of your relationships... or just leaving for whichever way the four winds blew... wouldn't you pick the latter? Wouldn't the bright, adventurous, young person always take the latter? Wouldn't you think much less of a young person who chose the safe but rule-laden route?
The necklace isn't important in itself. It just happened to be subject at hand when the struggle, that had been going on since he met "Miss Thang", came to a head.
Sure, the boy has issues. It would be expected, considering his childhood, but his behavior since he hooked up with this girl is absolutely unacceptable. She seems to have bolstered his ego, his confidence that he could assert himself, which is really funny considering she played him like a violin.
Apparently he thought he could win her respect and adulation by playing the tough guy when in truth he was just talking shit and being more sneaky and dishonest than ever. I'm thinking of things you didn't cover in this "update", but posted elsewhere, that happened leading up to the necklace showdown.
That's why I say the necklace wasn't important, it could have happened over a pizza, it was just time.
I think you made a mistake not letting your husband share in handling the boy from the start. You could have at least played the good parent/bad parent double team routine, and when he was pushing hard, hand off and cool off. But that's water over the dam, now.
This business of "I'll answer your question when you answer my question" is a risky tact when you're toe to toe. It may be possible on IM, but I doubt it without the visual clues. By email, especially when access is limited (library), it just makes matters worse. It gives both parties too much time to supply their own imagined answers to their questions and imagine a whole worst case scenario conversation. So by the time they do get an answer, it either reinforces what they've already decided the answer is... or you're lying.
In emails, talk straight, be honest and to the point, because innuendo, inflection, hints, irony and subtlety don't work.
It's a shame it's come to this but you two have been making each other nuts for a very, very long time. I'd have killed the fucker years ago. The way it went down is soap opera bizarre, but your whole life has been that bizarre, so I'm not really surprised.
All in all its just another brick in the wall. :sniff:
That's part of the insanity. You told him that if he wore a necklace his girlfriend made for him, you would kick him out of the house.
I feel like this is a gross oversimplification. The issue, in the end, is not the necklace, it is the defiance of parental authority. The subject matter is largely irrelevant. If her son chose to tell her to stuff it, then he is, defacto, accepting the consequences of what comes after.
I've been down to this point countless times with my kids...I think something should be one way, and they want it another way, and so we arrive at the "Where you gonna live and whatcha gonna eat?" point. Move out, and do what you wish, and I'll wish you the best. Stay here, and I have the final say. This is non-neogtiable. If you don't have that line with your older children, you *will* get used, walked on, abused, swindled and generally compromised - not because your kids don't love you, but because they have not yet learned about give and take, mutual backscratching, and all the other social niceties that adults have experienced.
Kids are used to being supported, cared for, taking a free ride. So, when they finally think they are old enough to do what they want, they tend to not remember that there's countless other responsibilities that go along with that freedom. All they know is what the child learned, and that doesn't include not having mommy or daddy fix their screwups, tend their booboos, give them allowance money.
It is a difficult transition for everyone involved. Could OC have handled things a little better? Sure. We all can. But her standing on principles of respect and obedience to a child living under her roof is not at all out of line.
So many adages might fit here, if I had an opinion, which I don't:
Apples don't fall far from trees
We reap what we sow
Having said that, I would never speak to my parents like that because I was raised not to speak to my parents like that. In return, my parents gave me discipline that was shielded in respect.
Just a small viewpoint in a huge issue.
Apples don't fall far from trees
= He has a lot of his bio-dad (I just can't call him a father, sorry) in him. Both genetically and mentally. What the hell happened to this poor kid during years 1 thru 7???? I hate to even try to imagine.
We reap what we sow
=And partially what his bio-dad sowed. This is not all your fault, but it is true that the first few years are, by far, the most important in childrearing. I think its safe to assume that your son got none of that for far too long. Perhaps the damage was already done, more like highly probable.
I would never speak to my parents like that because I was raised not to speak to my parents like that. In return, my parents gave me discipline that was shielded in respect.
My mom would have bitch-slapped me across the room if I ever said anything even remotely close to what your son said to you. Although again imagine what his first seven years were like and how HE was treated. All the abuse he probably endured both mentally and physically - perhaps even sexually. I am not a doctor, but this outrageous behavior sounds an awful lot like it may have been caused from some sort of abuse.
I don't think you were inn a position to really "succeed" as a mother. but that said this kid has NO IDEA how to reach out to, love or trust you or anyone else for that matter. He probably related to "Miss Thang" because she was the closest thing to his bio-dad that he found. All he was (probably) taught at a very young age was hate, negativity and abuse.
Oh, and where was he prior to and during the whole murder thing? Any chance he knew this was happening or overheard his bio-dad
planning it or feels somehow responsible for his bio-dad killing the man you were to marry? Or responsible that his father killed him period? Ruining "everyone's" lives. Thats a hell of a burden to put on a kid.
Last thing a 17 1/2 yr old is a KID. I've got three of my own 18, 16, 14 and their ages have less to do with their maturity level than the sum of their life experiences.
Sorry so long - I just went off on you and I don't mean it to come across that way. :(
Compassionate hugs to you I'm really sorry for your troubles.
Stuff like this is why I am glad our kids are grown and gone , and I FEAR haveing grandkids .
I Have found that I am WAY less tollarant of small children , and bratty kids , I just want to SMACK them , but that just makes things worse ,
I had a nepheu liveing with us for a few months a few years ago , he is gone and NOT welcome in my house AGAIN !!! That kid would push every button he could just to do it then not understand when we got mad !! " Ughh dude why are you throwing that throwing star into the side of the garage ?? " " Uhh , what throwing star , thats not mine ( Carol took it out of his hand )" "Where did you get it " get what ? " the trhowing star that I just took out of your hand " Thats not mine " etc,,,,,,,,,,,,,
AHHHHHHHHHHHHH !!!!!!!
I know what you're talking about, Zip. I've never had a lot of tolerance for brats. Kids, through inexperience and lack of understanding are going to screw up. They all do, we all did. I can handle that, but deliberate, malicious, button pushing I can't tolerate.
I've been told, they have to do that to learn how far they can go, testing limits and learning consequences. Hey, I'll help them learn the consequences. What happens when they pull that shit in the real world.
I'm told it's different when they are your own spawn. I chose not to take that risk because the SPCA won't take 'em, ya know.
They claim it's all on the parents, the nurturing and affection. That doesn't explain why a couple will have several kids and one turns out to be a clinker, though. I've seen it several times, where one of the brood is a monster, among normal siblings. There has to be more to it than the nurturing.:confused:
There has to be more to it than the nurturing.:confused:
Nature via Nurture
We've all got biological limitations but the way we are or are not nurtured alters our performance within those parameters.
The question to ask is why is the child pushing buttons? I'd argue that it is a form of communication developed because of limitations enforced by the childs biology and/or his environment. OC's looks like a perfect storm. The child is obviously limited in capacity but when he does ask a question clearly he gets pounded for it. When I was in high school one of my friends ran away from home. He landed at our house, because while my folks were tough, they were also predictable and fair. OC, as hard as it is to hear, you are running an unpredictable house where communication isn't taking place through normal channels. Please do not pursue the adoption of another child.
I would never speak to my parents like that because I was raised not to speak to my parents like that. In return, my parents gave me discipline that was shielded in respect.
I am making the assumption here that at some point growing up you said something that was disrespectful to your parents, and they punished/disciplined you.
1) How did they do so, if you remember.
2) What would they have done if that hadn't corrected your behavior?
3) What would they have done if #2 didn't correct your behavior?
Repeat until your parents are at their wits end, and have run out of ideas.
We are all doing the best with what tools we have.
I am making the assumption here that at some point growing up you said something that was disrespectful to your parents, and they punished/disciplined you.
1) How did they do so, if you remember.
2) What would they have done if that hadn't corrected your behavior?
3) What would they have done if #2 didn't correct your behavior?
Repeat until your parents are at their wits end, and have run out of ideas.
We are all doing the best with what tools we have.
I understand that it doesn't always work. But, I was raised to respect them, and I felt bad if I disappointed them. Does this mean I was BORN with an innate goodness that just radiated forth, and my kind and loving parents simply shoo-shooed me and I meekly obeyed? Not by a long shot.
I find it funny that so many defend drama drama drama from one person who loves it, and bans others who are drama drama drama but for some reason everyone is like "awwwwwww, they can't help the way things are." Think marichiko.
Just sayin'
I don't buy it. It's like small dogs in tall grass jumping up to see what all the other dogs are doing, and following suit.
You missed my point.
[FONT="Arial Black"][COLOR="Red"][SIZE="3"]1[/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT]...I was raised to respect them, and [COLOR="red"][FONT="Arial Black"][COLOR="red"][SIZE="3"]2[/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT] I felt bad if I disappointed them[/COLOR]. Does this mean I was BORN with an innate goodness that just radiated forth, and my kind and loving parents simply shoo-shooed me and I meekly obeyed? Not by a long shot.
[FONT="Arial Black"]1[/FONT] How were you raised to be this way??
[FONT="Arial Black"]2[/FONT] You may have had more of a conscience [SIZE="1"](sp),[/SIZE] so that a little discipline went a long way. What if you
didn't feel bad dissapointing them??
Then what?
We tend to learn from what we are exposed to as children. I find myself treating my daughter the way I was treated as a child. I turned into my mom, if you will. Some things I am proud of, some not. I do this unconsciously.
My brother was raised in the same household, by the same parents. I have a master's degree and an excellent career. He dropped out of high school and has a criminal record.
I think a main difference between us is that I felt bad when I 'got in trouble'. He didn't care so much, and thus our different life paths. I didn't get more punishment, it just hurt me more. Thus, I tended to not do things that would get me into it [SIZE="1"](or got better at not getting caught, heh heh). [/SIZE]
Am I better than him? No, I definately have faults. But I am a much more productive member of society.
being raised in the same house doesn't mean you were raised the same way. parents treat kids differently. it's just a hard goddamned fact of life.
LJ, for example, was an abused child. He was forced to watch reruns of Andy Griffith while his siblings were treated to more enlightening PBS fare. :D
It's true that kids are treated differently. Starting with just the blatantly obvious, our firstborn had our undivided attention for 3 years. Much of that was anxiety ridden and 1st time parent paranoia filled. Our second born didn't get the same amount of attention, and we have been much more laid back. The two have different personalities. Not sure if it's because they have been treated different or they are wired different or both. Our first born is a pleaser and our second born is a strong-headed rebel. Both are great.
yep. i'm a middle child. my sister is burdened with constantly feeling like she has to live up to expectations of others, resents it, rebels against it, etc. my brother who is 6 years younger, had an entirely different environment to deal with. my
Dude, that is awesome. Easily worth a thousand words, and precisely on topic. My feelings exactly.
Easily worth a thousand words, and precisely on topic.
That picture makes it abundantly clear that no amount of advice or wishful thinking is going to help the situation.
Maybe it's time to fire up the power-shovel and crane, and get to work?
When the time comes for the youngster to leave the nest, they go.
Conflict can arise from many sources, especially if one of the parties is not ready when it happens. The bigger the difference, the bigger the potential for conflict. On top of that, each side, the parent and the child can be
internally conflicted too. "I want to go, I'm scared to go, I can't stand it here, I don't know how I'll handle it out there..." round and round and round.
Talk is all we got to smooth over these inevitable transitions. If the talk is harsh, the transition, already tense, becomes a conflict.
You can't keep them. They can't stay past some point. And the worst part is KNOWING there will be pain. There WILL be mistakes. As a parent, it takes unimaginable courage to deliberately send your precious child into harm's way, that big old mean old world. It may be some small comfort knowing that that course is at least safer than permitting them to stay home with the
tigers.
But dammit, somebody's got to be the adult. The only question is, who's the best one for that job?
Kids learn what they see.
From reading this story, I see in OC's son, a child who has been rejected, abandoned, discarded, shuffled around, and generally taught that he is a burden, rather than a joy and a pleasure. He has most likely seen and been a target of abuse (the man raising him did not go from a responsible, kind, loving person to an axe murderer with no stops in between). My perception is that this child has been been taught to manipulate, disrespect, and to use hostility in an attempt to control his surroundings and those he is in contact with.
No where in this story do I see where this child was nurtured, taught to reason and discuss, given stability or a healthy role model to learn from. Does anyone love him? Respect him and his choices? Teach him to respect and love himself?
Calling his girlfriend Ms Thang is highly disrespectful and contemptous. Dismissing her due to her upbringing and background is pretty snotty and pretentious, given that none of us are perfect. OC has not done a very good job of making wise choices, so it doesn't seem to me that she has any room to condemn another person for theirs. Calling him Boy is depersonalizing and humiliating. He is not a piece of furniture to be dropped off at Uncle Jack's when your life has no room for him. Or discarded when you think he isn't filling YOUR needs adequately.
This kid didn't ask to be brought into the world. OC made that choice. Once she made that choice, she was responsible for him. OC could have chosen to give him up for adoption, ensuring a better chance at a healthy, functional life, but no...she chose to dump him at someone's house who had no ties to him...a person with no motivation to adequately care for him and raise him lovingly and responsibly.
I am simply amazed that he has turned out as well as he has. He must be one very tough cookie to have survived the life he has been subjected to (but did NOT deserve).
At 18, a young man probably doesn't know all the reasons he is attracted to the things he is. OC had the perfect opportunity to bond a little and have a reasonable discussion about the origins and meaning behind the necklace, but she chose instead to attempt to control her son's choices through verbal violence and manipulation. I am completely unsurprised at his response. If that incident is representative of the interaction between the two of them, both are probably better off without being in each others lives. I can only hope that the legacy that this child has been given does not get passed on to the next generation.
In case anyone is wondering where I am coming from with all this, I had a son out of wedlock, 18 years ago. His father never had anything to do with him, or me after conception. I knew that I was responsible for this human being and how his life turned out. I dropped out of college, worked two jobs for many years to support us, and gave up many personal desires and goals in order to be the very best mother that I could be. We've been through a lot together, he and I, but I'll tell you one thing...he has never doubted that I love him deeply and will always be there for him, no matter how much I disapprove of his choices. I have always treated him with dignity and respect and in return, he treats me the same. I've taken in teenagers whose families have thrown them out because they were 'uncontrollable'. Guess what? They don't need forceful control, they need respect and dignity. I give it to them and they respond in kind.
And if my son came home wearing a gf's Wiccan necklace, I would not force him to take it off, even if it meant nothing whatsoever to him. He is 18 and I would never dream of trying to control his personal choices to such a degree.
Violence breeds violence. Hostility breeds hostility. Disrespect breeds disrespect. This child learned all of that from his family of origin.
Stormie
"Be kind, for everyone you know is fighting a great/hard battle."
-- Philo of Alexandria
No where in this story do I see where this child was nurtured, taught to reason and discuss, given stability or a healthy role model to learn from. Does anyone love him? Respect him and his choices? Teach him to respect and love himself?
Point taken. There is, in fact, nothing about the positives in the child's upbringing contained in the OC's description of the crisis she's going through.
Tell me, the last time someone broke your heart and abused you badly, was your first response to talk about how well they were raised, or did you pour out your hurt and anger first?
Just because the girl didn't tell us the good stuff does *not* defacto mean there was none.
His father never had anything to do with him, or me after conception.
OC was not that fortunate. She had no choice, that she was aware of, at that time. She was completely manipulated and when she finally did make a choice, her choice was murdered. She's probably quite fortunate she was not..... he came close.
Since that time she's made plenty of bad choices. I've a hunch much of it was because she never learned how to make good choices.... too much living day to day with no discernible path to anything or anywhere. living like that tends to push you to people that are similar which is the last thing you need. It makes for a very deep rut where forward and back are the only options visible.
Put, being completely controlled and not developing decision skills, together and you get a person that is always looking for answers or rules to live by. Instructions, user's manual for life.
Many religions are more than happy to provide that. Politics is harder, you can't just find the "right party" and do what they tell you. No party is going to be able to do that without conflicting with something you believe, or believe in, along the way. No party is consistent enough to always follow a certain philosophy. Religions are better at it but still waver at times.
Stormie, you made the wrong choice which resulted in pregnancy and being on your own.
It would appear you made mostly the right choices after that.
How did you know how to make those choices?
How did you know what to do and how to treat the kid?
Reading books? Asking friends? Emulating your mother?
Probably mostly the latter, in that you just raised the kid the way you remembered being raised.
But what if you hadn't been raised that way? :smack:
Not to hijack or anything, just wanted to share something I've been thinking about recently.
As some of you may remember my uncle has fairly advanced Alzheimer's. I posted about this awhile ago asking for some advice. Since then, he has deteriorated significantly and only keeps sliding downhill. As some background information, he is 75 and born in Manchester, England. And long story short, he is the closest thing my mother ever had to a father. She lived with in San Diego, CA with him and her sister, whom he was married to until 2001 when she died of cancer. My uncle and my mom's sister never had children, so when my aunt died he was alone. At that time we had just moved to Ohio. My uncle then started to show signs of Alzheimer's a year or so after that and my mother was basically the one in place to take care of him (also helps that she is an RN). She has been doing so since, making more and more frequent flights out there to take care of him and his needs as he declines even more. This brings us to the present.
My uncle got to the point this past fall where he could just not live on his own anymore. We had caretakers staying with him 24/7, and at overlapping hours during the day, but he realized in a moment of clarity that he does much better with everyday life when my mom is around. Thus, we had a family meeting and decided that my uncle would come live with us in Ohio. He is at this moment sleeping in my older brother's room and his cat is quarantined in the basement so that it doesn't get torn to shreds by our two older male cats. For those of you that have little knowledge about Alzheimer's, my uncle is basically like a 3 year old mentally. Physically, he is in amazing shape for his age. But he can't do things like realize when he needs to have a bowel movement, comprehend changing tv channels, know how to get in a car, forgets that his dinner plate full of food is in front of him, forgets where he is even while sitting in the same room for an hour, and he hallucinates things like these little snowmen we have around the house he sees as actual people, same with his reflection. He thinks his reflection in any bathroom mirror is this same guy who lives and works on the bathroom. So far he has been able to remember everyone in the family, but it is only a matter of time before that too fades away.
The "seriousness that changed me" in all of this is how I am not super close with my uncle. We have had the usual holiday and summer gatherings of family and meetings when we would fly out from TN or Ohio, phones calls and the like too. But I never really got to know him. And now that he has become a huge part of me and my family's life, I have heard about his background and history a bit from my mother. I never knew before that this giant painting of a ship hanging in his house is actually a painting of the ship that he and his older brother came over to the US in during WW2. It was a ship full of children that were escaping the bombings of England's major cities. I also never knew he was in the US air force and was stationed at an early warning radar station in Alaska during the Cold War. This man has so much history and so many experiences in his mind that he just cannot share anymore, and now I am too late to ever get to hear it.
Where I am going with this is that for as long as I can remember I have enjoyed being by myself more than being with others. I loved just sitting outside reading a book and and having maybe 3 or 4 close friends and thats it. Now, I have realized the importance of developing relationships with people, because you never know what you may be missing out on. The person sitting next to you may know something that can change your life, but you will never know until you initiate a relationship with them.
Stormie, you made the wrong choice which resulted in pregnancy and being on your own.
It would appear you made mostly the right choices after that.
How did you know how to make those choices?
How did you know what to do and how to treat the kid?
Reading books? Asking friends? Emulating your mother?
Probably mostly the latter, in that you just raised the kid the way you remembered being raised.
But what if you hadn't been raised that way? :smack:
Oh noooo...my upbringing was horrific and I have made some terrible choices in my life. I do not condemn anyone for making mistakes, but I do believe you have to take responsibility for them. In particular, children are innocents and I feel strongly that a parent who keeps screwing up cannot turn around and blame the child for the way they turn out. Do as I say and not as I do doesn't cut it for kids.
I was a result of an affair by my bio mother and given up for adoption. My adoptive parents beat me and my adoptive father sexually molested me. My father also beat my mother and nearly killed her once. They divorced when I was 12. When I was 16, my mother traded me to my father for a Honda Civic.
I married the first man who asked and true to form (violence breeds violence), he beat me also. Broke my nose, dislocated my jaw, strangled me and kept me prisoner for several years in a foreign country. After I escaped that mess, I started college and was trying to get my life straight, when along came my son. I made the choice to bring him into the world...he had no say in the matter. I could have gotten an abortion or given him up, but I decided to keep him and raise him myself.
8 years later, I got married again. I was thinking that a male role model, a two-parent household, and a real house with a picket fence would be great for my son. Except I picked another abuser (that's all I knew). So 8 years later, after subjecting my son to an abusive step-father and a violent household, I divorced him also. Very bad choices I made..1-by not recognizing the abuser red flags and 2-by staying for much too long. During the marriage we had a daughter together. Near the end of the marriage, I was drinking heavily to numb out. By the time I left, my son was suicidal and that is what finally lit a fire under my ass. I
brought him into this world and it was my responsiblity to provide stability and love. That was 7 years ago.
I got myself into counseling to figure out WHY I was making lousy choices. I quit drinking. I didn't date until I was sure I knew how to spot emotionally healthy individuals (it took 2 years of hard work on myself to get to that point). My 11 yr old daughter still has to deal with her abusive father via visitation and she is not turning out well. She is defiant, difficult, rude, and downright disobediant. Is that her fault? No...it is mine (and her father's). But I will not turn my back on her. I will keep trying to be a positive role model and I will always make sure she knows I love her (if not her behavior). I don't bully, manipulate, threaten or disrespect her because those are behaviors I will not tolerate personally, so what gives me the right to treat HER in a way that I will not accept?
I understand that OC has had a hard life and some devastating losses. My high school sweetheart was stabbed to death in our homeroom. I've been down her road. What I am attempting to address is that is isn't really fair to blame the child for how he turned out when he learned how to behave from the people in his life. There may be missing pieces to this story but I'm going by what has been written here.
I don't blame other people for my bad choices, I made them and I have to live with the consequences...as do my children. The best I can do is try not to repeat them and teach my children how to make better decisions. And love them...consistantly.
Stormie
Where I am going with this is that for as long as I can remember I have enjoyed being by myself more than being with others. I loved just sitting outside reading a book and and having maybe 3 or 4 close friends and thats it. Now, I have realized the importance of developing relationships with people, because you never know what you may be missing out on. The person sitting next to you may know something that can change your life, but you will never know until you initiate a relationship with them.
Absolutely Bullitt. Also never judge a book by it's cover because inside might be the most amazing story you've ever discovered.
Also never judge a book by it's cover because inside might be the most amazing story you've ever discovered.
Or a bunch of pages with words on them.
(sorry)
OC, as hard as it is to hear, you are running an unpredictable house where communication isn't taking place through normal channels. Please do not pursue the adoption of another child.
..... I don't even know how to respond to that.....
Kids learn what they see.
From reading this story, I see in OC's son, a child who has been rejected, abandoned, discarded, shuffled around, and generally taught that he is a burden, rather than a joy and a pleasure. He has most likely seen and been a target of abuse (the man raising him did not go from a responsible, kind, loving person to an axe murderer with no stops in between). My perception is that this child has been been taught to manipulate, disrespect, and to use hostility in an attempt to control his surroundings and those he is in contact with.
First, let me state that I didn't have him for the first 7 years. I got pregnant, was forced to get married, and *I* knew I couldn't (1) cope and (2) afford to raise a child. He was given to my husband's family, in my attempt to give him a better life, and *not* pay for my mistakes.
When the indictments were made, they said I could come get him or he would go into foster care. By this time, I was married to a capable, stable, responsible man. I was fully intending on being married to this man forever. This man, who had never seen this child, came home early from TDY in Turkey, got a loan, and took me and my other son (the autistic one) who was 15 months old back to the US (we were living in England at the time) and hired an attorney to get this boy back.
Those seven years, he did not live with his bio-unit. He thought his bio-unit was his cousin, and that his great aunt and uncle were his parents. He didn't know who I was until the police brought him to me.
As it turned out, the people I trusted to raise this little boy were not a good choice. They had issues and were involved in a murder. Had I known this, OBVIOUSLY I would have taken steps to get him legally adopted via an agency or something, then this whole mess would never have happened.
No where in this story do I see where this child was nurtured, taught to reason and discuss, given stability or a healthy role model to learn from. Does anyone love him? Respect him and his choices? Teach him to respect and love himself?
From day one, he was treated with respect and love, and was loved and nurtured JUST AS MUCH as Bryan was. I told him that day (I'll never forget it) that I would never lie to him, but there would be times when I would feel like he wasn't ready for information, so I would tell him, "I'm not going to answer that". I stayed true to my word.
We had a GREAT relationship, an open relationship, to the point he was comfortable talking to me about sex and drugs. He had never been disrepectful (other than occasionally going over the top trying to be funny, but I chalked that up to him discovering and refining his sense of humor). I was NOT prepared for what happened. And it was so freakin fast....
Calling his girlfriend Ms Thang is highly disrespectful and contemptous.
I don't think so. This is how people talk where I live (where he lived). And I didn't want to use her real name, since this is a public forum.
Dismissing her due to her upbringing and background is pretty snotty and pretentious, given that none of us are perfect.
I think you're confusing Miss Thang (giver of the necklace) and Sam (the one that's pregnant). Two different girlfriends.
Miss Thang I liked. She seemed to have her head screwed on pretty straight for the most part, had a plan, and was intent on sticking to it.
Sam I don't care for. I've spoken to her on the phone twice, and both times she's come off as dumb as a brick. Her decisions have been as dumb or dumber than my more stupid ones. *HE* is the one that called her parents hicks, I merely parroted that back to him. I also mentioned that these "hicks" were kind enough to give him a home and feed him when they didn't have to. That bit never made it through.
OC has not done a very good job of making wise choices,
I have made some pretty stupid decisions, that's true. And I've paid dearly, and accepted responsibility for those decisions.
so it doesn't seem to me that she has any room to condemn another person for theirs.
Well, first, condemnation is defined as:to express an unfavorable or adverse judgment on; indicate strong disapproval of.
And as he is my son, I have absolute room to condemn him. If we're talking about Joey down the road, you're right, I don't.
And SINCE I made those mistakes, and since he KNEW about those mistakes and SAW firsthand consequences of them, I thought he would know better than to put himself in a similar position. (meaning the whole pregnancy thing.)
I think one of the main problems here is that many of you are talking about why he went to Dave's in the first place, and I'm more concerned with what happened once he got there.
Calling him Boy is depersonalizing and humiliating. He is not a piece of furniture to be dropped off at Uncle Jack's when your life has no room for him.
If I considered him as valuable as a piece of furniture, I wouldn't worry about him, or have posted any of this at all. Why would you even make that analogy??
Or discarded when you think he isn't filling YOUR needs adequately.
It's not, nor has it EVER been about him fulfilling MY needs. Please quote where I said that "he didn't fulfill my needs as a mother, so I took him to David's house."
This kid didn't ask to be brought into the world. OC made that choice. Once she made that choice, she was responsible for him. OC could have chosen to give him up for adoption, ensuring a better chance at a healthy, functional life, but no...she chose to dump him at someone's house who had no ties to him...a person with no motivation to adequately care for him and raise him lovingly and responsibly.
This is just plain wrong. It's obvious you haven't read the whole thread. Why are you making judgements against me?
I am simply amazed that he has turned out as well as he has. He must be one very tough cookie to have survived the life he has been subjected to (but did NOT deserve).
Tough, yes. He's had a hard road to hoe. He's a survivor, like I am. Probably the only thing he's running on right now.
At 18, a young man probably doesn't know all the reasons he is attracted to the things he is. OC had the perfect opportunity to bond a little and have a reasonable discussion about the origins and meaning behind the necklace, but she chose instead to attempt to control her son's choices through verbal violence and manipulation.
Man. You really have no idea what you're talking about.
I am completely unsurprised at his response. If that incident is representative of the interaction between the two of them, both are probably better off without being in each others lives. I can only hope that the legacy that this child has been given does not get passed on to the next generation.
It will. The curse works.
In case anyone is wondering where I am coming from with all this, I had a son out of wedlock, 18 years ago. His father never had anything to do with him, or me after conception. I knew that I was responsible for this human being and how his life turned out. I dropped out of college, worked two jobs for many years to support us, and gave up many personal desires and goals in order to be the very best mother that I could be. We've been through a lot together, he and I, but I'll tell you one thing...he has never doubted that I love him deeply and will always be there for him, no matter how much I disapprove of his choices. I have always treated him with dignity and respect and in return, he treats me the same. I've taken in teenagers whose families have thrown them out because they were 'uncontrollable'. Guess what? They don't need forceful control, they need respect and dignity. I give it to them and they respond in kind.
Goody?
And if my son came home wearing a gf's Wiccan necklace, I would not force him to take it off, even if it meant nothing whatsoever to him. He is 18 and I would never dream of trying to control his personal choices to such a degree.
Well my son was 17, and I was well within my rights as (1) his mother and (2) the person paying his rent/utilities/food/clothing/healcthcare/ROTC trips/uniforms/school functions/phone bills/internet bills/etc to make a REASONABLE REQUEST and expect it to be (1) immediately complied with, and if he doesn't like it, (2) have a discussion about it AFTER he complied with it.
That's how I was raised, and it's how I've raised all three of my children.
Violence breeds violence. Hostility breeds hostility. Disrespect breeds disrespect. This child learned all of that from his family of origin.
Stormie
How....cliche of you to say so. Unfortunately, as a few people have already stated, not all children raised in the same perfect household turn out bright and shiny members of society. So you ASSUME that it's my bad parenting that's caused all of this "poor boy's" problems. Nice. Are you always this judgemental and clueless or only when posting on forums?
Here is the discussion on IM about the necklace. Edited for names, text color changed for emphasis.
Mom says: you're drawing that stuff to you and then wondering why you're having a hard time with things
[COLOR="Blue"]Boy says: like that matters i dont beleve in any of it [/COLOR]Mom says: well you should, because its real, not just in a christian god and devil sense, but in a wiccan/pagan sense as well. you run around with a pagan star on, but dont believe it? that makes you a hypocrite
Boy says: i dont run round with a pagen star on
Mom says: your necklace, gimboid
Boy says: its a star made out of paper clips
Mom says: it's a pagan star.
Boy says: mm k, is that bad
Mom says: dont mmkay me, it's not bad if you know how to use it but you shouldn't be wearing it if you don't know what it is or how to use it
Boy says: hmmm
Mom says: that star identifies you as a pagan, just like a cross identifies you as a christian.
Boy says: mmm well i dont know right now right now im dont care
Mom says: then take it off, because i care
Boy says: u want me to take off my star
Mom says: if you dont care about it, dont care what it represents, dont know what it's for, then yeah, i want you to take it off
Boy says: well i like it so im guna keep it
[COLOR="blue"]Mom says: i dont care if you keep it, just dont wear it. OR if you want to wear it then make an effort to find out what is stands for, what it's used for, and how to use it. until that time, dont wear it [/COLOR]
Boy says: well i did look it up i got web sight on my favorits and i dont get it and im not guna and so im nut guna read more on it
Mom says: then dont wear it
Boy says: im guna its part of the nekless im guna keep it on till it falls off or (Miss Thang) takes it to chang it
[COLOR="blue"]Mom says: take it off or learn what it's for. those are your options.[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkRed"]Boy says: so what if i dont do ither [/COLOR]
Mom says: then I will take it off you when I get home and take it. dont push this. I'm serious.
Boy says: so am i i want to keep it and when i feal it nessisary to look in on it i will
Mom says: then take off the necklace until then.
Boy says: sorry but no (Miss Thang) gave it to me (Miss Thang) takes it form she she changes it and she will when she wants to
Mom says: let me put it to you this way. there is no arguement here. if i see it on you i will snatch the shit off. I will not tolerate arguement here. if you wont learn what it's for, you wont wear it. period.
Boy says: im not arguing im saying im not taking it off, dont know y u so mad about it u have yet to have a problem with it till now
Mom says: because I thought you knew what it was for. it never occured to me you'd be wearing a religious symbol and not know what it is
Boy says: well i am and ill look in to it when im ready cus at this point in my life god and all that junk ant on my top 10 things to do in my life. and u should know this i have told u more then 1 one time so [COLOR="darkred"]i ant taking it off i like it were it is [/COLOR]and i like it even more cus (Miss Thang) gaveit to me and it is somthingdear and near to her and so it means even more ot me
Mom says: I am telling you. Take it off or I will. This is one I will not back down from.
Boy says: ok
Mom says: I will giveyou alot of room to do your thing, son, but this is not one of those things. I understand (Miss Thang) gave it to you, and I understand (Miss Thang) knows what it is for but you don't. and she shouldn't have given to you without teaching you what it is, what it represents and how to use it. that was wrong of her.
Boy says: well u can takw it i know how to make it again
[COLOR="darkred"]Mom says: I dont care if you have it, keep it in your pocket if you want.You will not display it. [/COLOR]
Boy says: u take it i make a nother and replace it
[COLOR="darkred"]Mom says: I don't want to take it. [/COLOR]
Boy says: so dont
Mom says: I just don't want you wearing it. Your attitude is seriously pissing me off. This is your only warning.
Boy says: i didnt know i had a attitude i dont know y u think i do cus im actualy happy and all cheer. im sorry didnt mean to but im not taking it off
Mom says: then I'll take it off you.
Boy says: ok ill just make more to replace it
[COLOR="darkred"]Mom says: *shrugs* as long as I don't see it on you, I dont' care. [/COLOR]
Boy says: well u might cus i run round with my shirt off all the time
[COLOR="darkred"]Mom says: in addition, I consider this an act of defiance.
Boy says: ok
Boy says: well it kinda is u telling me to do somthing and im telling u no so it is [/COLOR]
Mom says: ok. I suggest you walk to the store and make arrangements for someplace to sleep. [COLOR="darkred"]you will not defy me and live in my house. not going to happen.
Boy says: ok
Mom says: i will not tolerate disrespect.
Boy says: i know
Mom says: [COLOR="Red"]so you choose to move out. [/COLOR]
Boy says: [COLOR="red"]if u dont want me to defi u and i cant live here if i do then i cant do what i want how i wnat it i cant wear what i wnat how i want [/COLOR][/COLOR]
Mom says: ok. pack your shit, leave your key on the counter. computer stays with me
Boy says: can i come back in a few weeks to get the rest of my stuff
Mom says: nope no coming back. you leave me, you leave for good
Boy says: nope so icant come get my close dad got me
Mom says: better pack a big bag.
Boy says: mm k
Now, at the same time, the following conversation was happening in his other IM window with Miss Thang:
Boy: mom is bitching about teh star on the nekless
Pretty: ? why?
Boy: says i should studdy it or take it off
Pretty: umm no becuas eit's mine. and you're wearing it as a representation of me. and if she has a problem with it she can take it up with me whenever I come back over. and I'll tell her what I tell every one else. it's mine. my choice. I'm not makeing you wear it
Boy: Boy says: sorry but no (Miss Thang) gave it to me (Miss Thang) takes it form she she changes it and she will when she wants to
Pretty: that's really confusing
Boy: she telling me to take it off thats what i told her
Pretty: I know. but you're statement was confusing.
Boy: mm
Pretty: like...(Miss Thang) takes it form she she changes it and she will when she wants to. that part
Boy: mmm
....6 minutes later....
Boy: moms bithcign at me its kinda fun
Pretty: what about?
Boy: let me vent
Pretty: what about?
Boy: the star
Pretty: what about now?
Pretty: *about it*
Boy: same thing i dont know what it reperesenc so i should not display it
Pretty: I do and you're wearing it as a representation of me. I give gifts to my friends and they have no clue what parts of them are. cus it's somethign incorporating a protection rune or sigil. they just know it looks cool and wear it like I tell them to. or keep it where I tell them to. black is the color of the crone, the color of supposedly death. but I don't think so. it's the color of abscence and secrecy. but becuase it's tied to teh crone I tie it also to wisdom. old wisdom.
Boy: hmmm
Pretty: this why I have it as part of the twining. silver is the feminine color. the pentegram can be considered a representation of the five elements. becuase it is tied to the base of our world the combination of it and the black and the silver to me represent a tie to the base of our world. and it represents I'm showing a want for the base wisdom, the stuff that really matters. the stuff you learn the hard way and through life. if you let it teach you. so I skimped a little bit when I told you it was my reprisentation of my body and the physical relm. that's another aspect of it's being there
Boy: hmm i got to go hon
Pretty: but not th emajor one
Pretty: okay baby
As I said, all I wanted him to do was take it off UNTIL he could tell me what it meant. His girlfriend was FEEDING him the information, in pretty simplied terms. All he had to do was so, ok Mom, I'll take it off and when I tell you what it means, can I put it back on? Yes. Problem solved.
Again, this was the last straw in a very long list of smaller defiances that I had warned him about but didn't take (what I consider) action on. I told him time and time again, and I'm not the only one, mind you. My best friend (who the kids consdered an aunt) and my husband and my mother ALL tried to tell him before it got to this point, Dude, just hang in 6 more months.
Hopefully now we can stop focusing on the necklace and actually get to the main reason I wrote all this stuff in the first place.... what now?
He is aware I'm not after his kid. He's also aware that he's deeply hurt me with the emails he sent. He's also never apologized for any of his actions, and still insists on foisting all of the responsibility for his decisions (not only the ones forcing him to move to Dave's but also the ones since he's been down there and I've had absolutely nothing to do with) off on me.
i only have one question......[COLOR=navy]why aren't you posting in indigo?[/COLOR]
Hopefully now we can stop focusing on the necklace and actually get to the main reason I wrote all this stuff in the first place...
If we do talk about it, is it an act of defiance?
I know you pushed each others' buttons, but it seems like your button was big and red and ten feet tall in the living room.
Give a teenage boy a wall with a sign that says "wet paint" and 99 times out of 100 he will touch it.
Give a teenage boy an ultimatum, and 9 times out of 10 he will violate it.
Give a teenage boy a wall with a sign that says "wet paint" and 99 times out of 100 he will touch it.
and the other time he'll pee on it.
[SIZE="1"]sorry, as you were......[/SIZE]
What do you do from here?
Wipe the slate clean. Demonstrate forgiveness and love. Explain, don't argue. Help him protect and keep his child. Seems to me that all you have to lose is pride.
...start communicating in real time, in person. Go see him, call him, take him for a beer/whatever is legal there.
Give a teenage boy an ultimatum, and 9 times out of 10 he will violate it.
Not in my fathers house. :headshake
Kids learn what they see.
From reading this story, I see in OC's son, a child who has been rejected, abandoned, discarded, shuffled around, and generally taught that he is a burden, rather than a joy and a pleasure. He has most likely seen and been a target of abuse (the man raising him did not go from a responsible, kind, loving person to an axe murderer with no stops in between). My perception is that this child has been been taught to manipulate, disrespect, and to use hostility in an attempt to control his surroundings and those he is in contact with.
No where in this story do I see where this child was nurtured, taught to reason and discuss, given stability or a healthy role model to learn from. Does anyone love him? Respect him and his choices? Teach him to respect and love himself?
Calling his girlfriend Ms Thang is highly disrespectful and contemptous. Dismissing her due to her upbringing and background is pretty snotty and pretentious, given that none of us are perfect. OC has not done a very good job of making wise choices, so it doesn't seem to me that she has any room to condemn another person for theirs. Calling him Boy is depersonalizing and humiliating. He is not a piece of furniture to be dropped off at Uncle Jack's when your life has no room for him. Or discarded when you think he isn't filling YOUR needs adequately.
This kid didn't ask to be brought into the world. OC made that choice. Once she made that choice, she was responsible for him. OC could have chosen to give him up for adoption, ensuring a better chance at a healthy, functional life, but no...she chose to dump him at someone's house who had no ties to him...a person with no motivation to adequately care for him and raise him lovingly and responsibly.
I am simply amazed that he has turned out as well as he has. He must be one very tough cookie to have survived the life he has been subjected to (but did NOT deserve).
At 18, a young man probably doesn't know all the reasons he is attracted to the things he is. OC had the perfect opportunity to bond a little and have a reasonable discussion about the origins and meaning behind the necklace, but she chose instead to attempt to control her son's choices through verbal violence and manipulation. I am completely unsurprised at his response. If that incident is representative of the interaction between the two of them, both are probably better off without being in each others lives. I can only hope that the legacy that this child has been given does not get passed on to the next generation.
In case anyone is wondering where I am coming from with all this, I had a son out of wedlock, 18 years ago. His father never had anything to do with him, or me after conception. I knew that I was responsible for this human being and how his life turned out. I dropped out of college, worked two jobs for many years to support us, and gave up many personal desires and goals in order to be the very best mother that I could be. We've been through a lot together, he and I, but I'll tell you one thing...he has never doubted that I love him deeply and will always be there for him, no matter how much I disapprove of his choices. I have always treated him with dignity and respect and in return, he treats me the same. I've taken in teenagers whose families have thrown them out because they were 'uncontrollable'. Guess what? They don't need forceful control, they need respect and dignity. I give it to them and they respond in kind.
And if my son came home wearing a gf's Wiccan necklace, I would not force him to take it off, even if it meant nothing whatsoever to him. He is 18 and I would never dream of trying to control his personal choices to such a degree.
Violence breeds violence. Hostility breeds hostility. Disrespect breeds disrespect. This child learned all of that from his family of origin.
Stormie
Which is why we will never hit my child. My family is having a hard time with it.
A pentagram is an early Christian symbol. Many flowers and fruits are considered holy because of it. The five wounds of Christ are symbolized by it.
..... I don't even know how to respond to that.....
If I've misread the situation, I apologize. I know it is impossible to paint the complete picture with words.
"Be kind, for everyone you know is fighting a great/hard battle."
-- Philo of Alexandria
Well put, grant.
Well put, grant.
Thanks, I'm such a quote whore.
Thanks, I'm such a quote whore.
I wouldn't classify myself in those terms, but I do collect aphorisms. I have pages and pages of them. I'm not a specialist, though; I like proverbs, quotes, aphorisms, rhymes, etc. If the content of the passage has personal meaning to me, I collect it. I like the one referenced above. Good one.
i'm a middle child. my brother who is 6 years younger, had an entirely different environment to deal with.
our firstborn had our undivided attention for 3 years. Our second born didn't get the same amount of attention, and we have been much more laid back. The two have different personalities.
being raised in the same house doesn't mean you were raised the same way. parents treat kids differently. it's just a hard goddamned fact of life.
I agree, but also contend that there are inherent differences in each child also.
I let a bit of frustration at my brother's lack of caring for anything but himself cloud my judgement there. I view him as a total loser, and most I know who have met us both agree. There is bad blood there and I apologise for not being more unbiased(?)
Carry on.
I agree, but also contend that there are inherent differences in each child also.
I let a bit of frustration at my brother's lack of caring for anything but himself cloud my judgement there. I view him as a total loser, and most I know who have met us both agree.
I'm in almost the exact same situation, LabRat. Everyone who has ever met my brother and me has marveled that the same parents could have somehow raised both of us. It's actually made me a little terrified that one or more of my children will manage to turn out like him despite our best efforts.
People say the same about my parents raising me... I am opposite from both of them, in different ways.
While we're talking about relative differences --
My brother and I are two sides of a coin. He's the face and I'm the tail.
I look like my father, he looks like my mother. I act like my mother, he acts like my father. He's outgoing, I'm not; he's a creature of outward focus, I'm a creature of inward focus.
We have so much shared life context that we can talk for hours, and you won't understand most of it.
Even though we're 6 years different in age we're as close as twins.
A few events that really changed me were when my parents were divorced when I was almost 11. One day I came home from school and half of my family's belongings were gone. My mother had a moving company come in that day and take all of her stuff, including the bed and our TV. I remember standing in the kitchen and crying with my father for reasons I didn't fully understand at the time. As the next six months passed and I had to explain what happened to my younger cousins and inquiring minds at school I only began to understand why.
The second most serious change in my life occurred a few years later when my older brother punched me in the nose for the first time. When he joined the Marines a year and a half ago I can't say I was surprised. He used me to learn how to inflict pain upon others so it's the perfect calling for him. I wish him luck.
The third was on September 11th. All of my remaining innocence was lost that morning when in first period physics the teacher in the room next door came in and told us to turn on the radio. For the rest of the day in my three remaining classes all we did was listen to the conflicting newsreports that were mostly conjecture.
The fourth was on a trip to Switzerland a year later when a table of Swiss people my age grilled me on my political stance about the United States' foreign policy, especially regarding Afghanistan, our relations with Israel and many other subjects. They were more educated about the U.S. than I was. I had no answer to almost all of their questions; it was the most embarassing experience of my life and even to this day I wish I've done more to educate myself on our policies. Needless to say, I've learned quite a bit from reading some of the posts on this forum.
Now that that's off my chest, I really like these forums. Probably not the place to say it as Ibram will probably remark, but I don't care. I've enjoyed myself thus far.
Oh... I have no memory of most of my childhood.
My heart goes out to Richlevy and Elspode. I understand the heartache involved for wanting for them so much. It is a grieving process.
I don't think this is the heart ache that changed me because my internal hope always sees me through.
I think anyone that has been in an abusive relationship in person or on the internet can say it must be the most seriously negative thing to happen.
I am grieving again over the same loss as I have grieved before. With a difference, now.
For those who have been involved with this thread, The Boy (now 24 years old) moved from his baby-mama's (which was never confirmed) to Texas, to stay with the family that raised him the first 7 years. 2 years later, he called me and asked me to come home. After much discussion, I said he could come home and stay rent free for 2 months, then if he chose to stay in my home he'd have to either go to college or pay rent. He came home, we got along great. After flirting with the idea of dating Miss Thang again, met a new girl, and they have since gotten married.
The Boy has ever been the Troll. He says things just to get a rise out of them. If he knows you, he knows where to hit you to hurt you the most. He's a sniper. He posted some trollish shit on his FB and I took the bait, then realized it was Trolling and decided that before the situation escalated out of control I should just unfriend him to prevent more drama. My mistake was posting a note to my FB about why I defriended him, when I should have left it the hell alone. He saw it, and lost his fucking mind. I got an extremely shitty letter filled with straight out lies, disrespect and sniping. He ended it by disowning me, my mother, my sister and his cousins. I haven't spoken to him since Sep 12. Email, phone or otherwise. I have no intention of ever speaking to him again. Ever. His wife told my mother that even if he and I reconciled, SHE would tell any children they may have that their grandmother died before they were born, and I would surely never see them. This is not a decision I made lightly. And I noticed that once I excised him from my life, the majority of my personal drama went away. It was the calm before the storm.
Two nights ago he shows up at my home with two police reports, dated 1995 about Travis. He says that Raven, the woman who has the website with Travis' picture on it, contacted him through Shaun's FB page and she knows my name, the names of my children, and God knows what else. The Boy described her as Travis' "girlfriend", and said that she has printed pictures of his (the Boy's) wedding and given them to Travis. The Boy did not make his FB private until after he had disowned me, so I wouldn't be able to see his FB stuff.
He says he is in contact with Raven now, and she emailed him these police reports, and he knew I'd wanted them since the event took place. He said he has more at his home and could bring them over if I wanted. I told him I'd think about it, I thanked him for bringing them over. He left.
I had been told by the detectives that Travis had lured Steve away, that Travis had made hundreds of little cuts all over Steve's body and put salt and lemon juice ont he wounds. That Travis had cut Steve's leg off at the knee and he bled to death. That was the story I had heard and believed for a little under 20 years now.
That wasn't the whole story.
I did not get the warning from my son that I am about to give you. The following link is to a page of the police report he gave me, last names redacted (R= Travis' cellmate relating what Travis told them. P = Travis, and N = Steve SD=Travis' wife at the time). It is graphic, it is disturbing, and it has ripped open wide a wound I thought long healed. You will not be able to un-read
this and
page2.
I haven't slept more than a few hours at a time since. I burst into tears at the slightest thing. I'm a mess. I don't know what to do. I mean, there's nothing I *can* do, but I think I'm starting to really go batshit crazy. Like, time to visit Wolf at work crazy. How do I assimilate this information into the grieving I've already done? My husband keeps saying that Steve didn't die twice, that the only thing that's changed is how it happened, and logically, I get that. Emotionally, I'm going to need a padded room. Preferably one that doesn't smell like urine or vomet. That'd be great, thanks.
I find it hard to believe a person could remain conscious, no less quiet, through all that. You're husband is right, nothing has changed, the past never does. Get some help, pro help.
Tried that. More than twice, with different therapists just to make sure I didn't get a crappy one. Nothing happened. It's not that I'm not facing my issues. I know what they are, and I'm aware they are there and I've been given grief and victims' counseling as well. As I said, I was doing really well (considering) with all of this until this new stuff came out.
Not until you are ready to let go of the drama. Its a choice.
Right. I guess PTSD is a choice as well, then right? Because people who've lived with incredible traumas in their lives can just choose to let go of the drama. You should write a book. Make millions. "How to let go of the drama: a veteran's guide". You've single-handedly cured millions of suffering people with that astounding insight. Choose to let go of the drama. Why hasn't anyone mentioned this to me sooner? Astonishing.
She's right, therapists, drugs, counseling, they are all designed to help you let go. But in the end that's what has to happen, we both know that.
What am I supposed to let go of, exactly?
That he's dead? I've gone through that process already. Again, I was fine Tuesday morning. I don't think about him every day, I don't google the event or the people any more, I don't keep his picture in my wallet or his obituary at my desk. I moved on.
That he was tortured? I came to terms with the story I was told back in 95. This is new information that I'm really struggling to deal with.
That it was my ex-husband that did that sick shit? I've even gotten over all of that, and I thank my God that I wasn't involved with that and that I wasn't hurt more badly than I endured while I was with him. I'm ok with all of that.
My problem now is that I have these images in my head of the shit Travis did to him and I can't get them out of my head. I lay down to sleep and they play over and over, and get embellished in my vivid fucking imagination that I can't turn off.
What I'm extracting from your posts is that you're saying that if this new information bothers me, I haven't "let go" of his death. So then, that means if I've moved on with my life you're saying it shouldn't bother me in the slightest? Really? Because the other three people in my Real Life (as opposed to virtual life here) who've read that account say it's the single most disturbing thing they've ever read, and the fact that both of the people involved were people I knew and loved makes it that much worse.
So I don't think I'm too off base to be more than a little freaked out right about now, even having moved on and "let go".
Or you know, maybe we have different definitions of "let go".
"Let go" indeed.
Then I guess you'll just have to figure it out on your own.
Onyx, I'll admit up front that I didn't read the links, because if it's worse than cuts with lemon juice and cutting off a leg to bleed to death, then I don't want to read it.
I know you're in a painful place, so please don't think I'm judging you for your reaction to this. But it seems pretty cut and dried from here: what you need to do (that is, turn off the nonstop images of suffering in your mind) is something you can't seem to do. No one is saying it's wrong or unreasonable for you to be unable to do that right now, but the fact remains that it's what would help you feel better, and what you want to have happen. You've got to find a way to do it--but that doesn't mean you have to magically flip that switch on your own.
You need to seek professional help. Anyone who had gone through what you've gone through would. You are insulted at the suggestion that you should choose to get over it--yet that is exactly what you are attempting to do, when you avoid seeking professional help. If therapy alone hasn't helped in the past, perhaps it's time for a combination of therapy and medication, at least until you are past this fresh grief. Like you say, it's not drama, it's PTSD. And people with PTSD need professional help.
finding the right therapist can be a lifetime job. Keep trying until you find the one that works for you.
Onxy, I know about letting go. And I know how hard it is to do. It does not come naturally or easy...it has to be learned. But the learning doesn't happen unless you ask for it. And then the process itself is tough. It seems so cold and loney and scary. But the benefits are worth the struggle.
I would be worried about the son and the high dysfunction that keeps this coming back to you.
You can't change the past but you can change the relationship with your son. You can try to change the future. In a positive way, be more real than the website lady and the man behind bars.
Then I guess you'll just have to figure it out on your own.
You're right. How silly of me to expect otherwise.
I would be worried about the son and the high dysfunction that keeps this coming back to you.
You can't change the past but you can change the relationship with your son. You can try to change the future. In a positive way, be more real than the website lady and the man behind bars.
I have changed it. I am no longer speaking to him. He told me before his wedding to fuck off and i did the whole forgiveness and understanding thing but i also told him that if it happened again that it wasnt going to end the same way. He purposely told me in the letter to fuck off again precisely for that reason. He's 24 years old now and i no longer have to deal with his bullshit. The time between sep 12 and last week was the most drama free in years. I dont like drama, despite the shit thst keeps happening. He disowned me and truly, at least for now, i'm better off because of it. Hebrought that shit over to me unannounced and more importantly, didnt prepare me for what i was about to read. He can fuck off as far as i'm concerned. How's THAT for letting go?
Im on my itouch so i cant quote n stuff like i want to.
I have tried therapy. I have tried medication. I'm not i sulted at the suggestion of therapy or professional help, but i'm telling y'all it doesnt work. I've been fucking with therapists heads since i was 9 years old. Now after all these psycjology classes, i know what they will twll me. I know the strategies. I know what to say to get exactly the medication i want. I get that professional help works for most people, but im not most people.
And you're right, clod, i know i need to get over this and bruce is right as well, i need to figure it out on my own. I also am sorry for going off on you, pico, but really, telling me its a simple matter of choice was exactly the wrong thing to say to me, like that, at the time, whether right wrong or indifferent. I appreciate the effort, though (weak smile).
I dont think there is a right answer here. This isnt something that anton should have to deal with in the first damn place. I've gottem some sleep finally and i start my third to last semester of college for my aa tomorrow. I have three classes that are going to need quite a bit of my attention so o'll have no time to go moaning about stuff that happened 20 years ago. Art history in particular is going to kick my ass, i think.
Thanks to everyone for the input, even if I am a bitch about it. Thanks for putting up with me. Sorry for the continued drama.
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