BIDEN - HARRIS 2020

BigV • Aug 11, 2020 4:31 pm
Biden has made his choice for his Vice Presidential running mate: Kamala Harris.

Biden was spoiled for choice and he made a good one. She's smart and savvy and capable.

Don't forget to vote!!!
Griff • Aug 11, 2020 4:42 pm
Gonna lose some progressives with what is essentially an old fashioned GOP ticket... Not Trump is a win.
BigV • Aug 11, 2020 4:47 pm
all of the people all of the time, etc.

Any voter who stays home because this ticket is too conventional is an idiot.
Griff • Aug 11, 2020 4:52 pm
2016 should remind us that idiot's votes count as well. They've decided to win without passion, maybe that reduces conflict, but it also reduces turnout.
BigV • Aug 11, 2020 5:15 pm
I agree that idiot votes count, both the ones cast and the ones withheld.

I would joyously celebrate a win without passion, or with passion, or passion and a bag of chips. Never Trump is a win, Biden-Harris is a win, a win is a win and I'll be happy to have one.

As for turnout, I think any pick he made would have been a mixed bag. If Biden had picked Warren, there would have been trade offs there too. Two old white people, same ol' same ol'. Abrams, no experience in higher office or national experience. Rice, the same complaint you lodge against Harris, doubling down on foreign relations experience, but what else? I think Duckworth would have been an excellent choice, but again risking disaffecting the progressives. I think her military background would be even more compelling than Harris' background as a prosecutor. Though both of them have that law and order vibe--crossover appeal to "law and order" voters. Again, abstention is tantamount to voting for more Trump.

Are you arguing for the progressive position? I find many of their ideas very appealing. But none of them will ever see the light of day unless their proponents are elected. To govern, one must first be elected.
Griff • Aug 11, 2020 5:44 pm
I want full blown national healthcare. This isn't the ticket that will deliver. I don't know about a full on progressive agenda sometimes they are as intolerant as Trumpets. We need good government which this ticket could deliver. Harris will appeal to cops and suburban voters but alienate BLM who have legit grievances.
Griff • Aug 11, 2020 5:54 pm
I'm told she did sign on to M4A so we'll see. We'll also have to see what the post Trump GOP morphs into. To be successful National Healthcare needs widespread support. Right now the GOP is about ruining government agencies and programs not keeping them efficient.
Flint • Aug 11, 2020 6:09 pm
It's a smart choice.

Not the best for progressives, but let's face it-- only full-blown lunatics are not voting "against" the incumbent administration.
This ticket will get a "pass" on ideological purity, to the maximum possible extent.

As for healthcare, Kamala was for whatever the person she was talking to was for, as far as I could tell.

Being a prosecutor is not a great background, she better get into criminal justice reform real quick.
Griff • Aug 11, 2020 6:19 pm
I'm gonna stay in line because Trump, but we could have had bold change in this moment.
sexobon • Aug 11, 2020 6:33 pm
Well, she's no Tushi Gabbard; but, I'm trying to keep an open mind. Put her on a surfboard in a bathing suit and we'll see.
sexobon • Aug 16, 2020 9:05 pm
Hmmm, it seems I've heard this before. Seems this could mean that Kamala Harris is expected to be Joe Biden's Dick Cheney.

[SIZE="3"]Barack Obama has privately voiced concerns that Joe Biden could 'f--- things up,' according to a report[/SIZE]

... According to Politico, Obama told an unnamed Democrat during the 2020 primary campaign, in which he declined to endorse any candidate: "Don't underestimate Joe's ability to f--k things up."

Obama has now backed Biden in the race to the November election against President Trump but is said privately to be concerned that Biden does not have an intimate connection with the electorate.

"And you know who really doesn't have it? Joe Biden," Obama told another Democratic Party candidate during the primary run, according to Politico, hitting out at his former Vice President's lack of an intimate bond with the Iowa electorate.

There reportedly have been tensions between the Biden and Obama camps over the former President's failure to back Biden White House bid strongly enough, which date from 2016 when Obama backed Hillary Clinton over Biden as his successor as 2016. ...

... Obama's support this year for Biden's presidential run was markedly qualified. "I believe Joe has all of the qualities we need in a president right now … and I know he will surround himself with good people," he said.

It contrasted with Obama's endorsement of Hillary Clinton in 2016 when he said: "I don't think there's ever been someone so qualified to hold this office." ...

[BOLD MINE]

We'll watch for Kamala Harris becoming a backseat driver during the campaign.
Urbane Guerrilla • Aug 16, 2020 11:48 pm
Mr. Biden is quite all right with taking your AR-15 away -- that you bought and paid for, and with which you keep genocide and rioting iconoclasts far from your door.

Ms. Harris is quite all right with taking your AR-15 away, ditto ditto.

She said so and so did Joe, that empty suit.

This is of course not at all smart nor savvy nor anything but fascist, and these un-Democrats don't even hide their tyrannous inclinations on this issue or any other issue.

Neither of these two has any part of me. That is because I am liberty-minded, and these two candidates are not, but minded to something other than liberty.
xoxoxoBruce • Aug 19, 2020 12:30 am
UG, don't forget to go to the eye color poll and check brown.
Griff • Aug 19, 2020 7:08 am
Reflecting on this ticket, I'm feeling better about it. I like Joe's personality, his nature will be to unify people and that is what we need, he is someone who believes in the Union not someone trying to break it. If his politics are slow moving maybe that gets people on board. I caught Gov. Kasich's endorsement, he said it better than I could.
Urbane Guerrilla • Aug 19, 2020 11:53 am
xoxoxoBruce;1056712 wrote:
UG, don't forget to go to the eye color poll and check brown.

Bruce, you need to become more devoted to human rights and civil liberties than you presently are. I am a good example for you. Remember you are careful not to be a good example for me.

I'm not here to steer you wrong -- and never have been.
Urbane Guerrilla • Aug 19, 2020 11:55 am
Griff, I know better than to take those people's word for their own value or their own goodness.
Griff • Aug 19, 2020 12:20 pm
Your commitment to unregulated force makes you an example I cannot follow.
Urbane Guerrilla • Aug 19, 2020 12:41 pm
Well, if it *were* a commitment to unregulated force, you'd have a point.

Where you'd stop with the regulation is another point needing examining.
Flint • Aug 19, 2020 3:26 pm
Griff;1056367 wrote:
I'm gonna stay in line because Trump, but we could have had bold change in this moment.


My depression about [the change that's needed / what we're actually doing] has been growing since 2016. I've been disillusioned so many times, and it stings even worse for the small glimmers of hope. I've gotten to the point that I don't watch or listen to the news, or go on social media, and I basically just listen to classical music.

the professor wrote:
When they turn the pages of history
When these days have passed long ago
Will they read of us with sadness
For the seeds that we let grow?
Ibby • Aug 19, 2020 6:07 pm
i would like to point out that 3D printed guns are extremely safe and effective now, and there's no putting that genie back in the bottle. Using some imagined scary left-wing boogieman of "they're coming to take our guns" is a fair enough reason, I guess, not to support the Democratic party, but it certainly doesn't excuse this fool defending actual literal obvious fascism or casting his lot in with the white-supremacist right. I know we all know that if UG gave even half a shit about liberty or freedom, he wouldn't be a such an obvious fascist bootlicker, but it's really important for the rest of us to remember that the left isn't uniformly anti-gun. I live in arguably the most left-wing state in the country and i could go buy another piece this afternoon on a whim. the left - the actual left, not liberal centrists - is generally pretty gun-positive. Go find your local John Brown Gun Club and make some new friends!
Urbane Guerrilla • Aug 20, 2020 9:54 pm
Ibby, you are hapless. Manifestly you wouldn't know a fascist if one broke your nose with a Hitler salute. I would expect *you* to try breaking my nose that way. The Black, Living Marxists and Antifa are the face of the left.

You have only to pay attention to the Democrat solons' statements about gun control to know how bitterly they despise an adult, competent -- and armed and therefore capable and unoppressible -- electorate. We can quote each candidate and some guest speakers, you know. Oh, that's right... you will suddenly behave like you're illiterate. Your worldview demands you do; I call it superstitious.

Armed society = civilized society. Democratic platform and selling points to yahoos = uncivilized society.

Ibby: not armed, not capable either, bait for tyrants, will lick boots and bootie.
Griff • Aug 21, 2020 7:31 am
UG, your fantasy is unhealthy and dangerous to democracy. Anticipating you getting nonsensical about republics, our Republic protected actual human slavery, let's be clear eyed while looking backwards. I would suggest that Ibby is armed because elements of the right wing of our culture find him unacceptable as a person and would use violence against him. I would also suggest that many of these same "very good people" would use violence to enforce other aspects of their backwards vision.
Undertoad • Aug 21, 2020 9:05 am
elements of the right wing of our culture find him unacceptable as a person and would use violence against him


Not a widespread issue, deadly violence against trans people has typically come from people they know and regular old violent crime that happens to everybody in the ghetto



(Except for the millennial newspeak that speech is violence, which occasionally now is extended to lack of speech is violence; and the other newspeak that violence, in the form of rioting, is speech. Carry on)
Ibby • Aug 21, 2020 10:27 am
find her unacceptable, you mean, Griff.

but honestly I would wager that I am armed for the exact same reasons everyone else is. I'm more interested in community self-defense than personal self defense, but otherwise, i'm armed because, in no particular order: self-defense is important, the ability to resist violent fascism is important, the option to hunt for food is important, and, frankly, owning and shooting guns is fun. Any gun enthusiast who says they don't do it at least a little bit cause its fun is lying to you.

and ultimately, i'm armed cause i don't want violent fascists like UG, like the boog-ers, like the proud boys and patriot prayer, like the police, to be the only ones with guns.
tw • Aug 21, 2020 10:48 am
Urbane Guerrilla;1056798 wrote:
Ibby, you are hapless. Manifestly you wouldn't know a fascist if one broke your nose with a Hitler salute.

Exactly how a fascist (ie a Nazi) would reply. Also called a wacko extremist. Like the scumbag president that he adores, he posts insults. Not one fact. Nothing honest. His ego is proof of everything that he knows.

Narcissist personality disorder? 30 second attention spam? Characteristic of an extremist.

He is upset and now more nasty. A president he admires has been exposed for what he always was.

A vote for Trump is approval of Urban Guerrilla. And the KKK, Nazis, and White Supremacists praised by Trump and UG. Fascism is alive and well.
Diaphone Jim • Aug 21, 2020 6:02 pm
This brave lad was a good part of last evening's convention.
Picture Trump's mocking of the handicapped reporter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lZbOiktAh4

Pass it on, watch it twice.
tw • Aug 21, 2020 7:55 pm
Trump lies. Making him popular with extremist who said here they want to "wreck shit". Excellent examples include Urbane Guerrilla and henry quirk.

Urbane Guerrilla;1047338 wrote:
It should be noted, as I note, that he' s not stiffing contractors now, nor is he likely to start.
A Trump supporter lies just like a criminal that he admires.

Why U.S. Law Makes It Easy for Donald Trump To Stiff Contractors . Donald Trump appeared to admit that one of his business secrets is ... he stiffs his contractors.

Even the BBC now openly cites Trump lies - almost if not every day.

Picture Trump mocking a handicapped kid. Of course. Only deplorables would admire a man who can kill someone on Fifth Ave and still be elected president. Demonstrates why Nazis could even take over America. Many are so racist. Trump inspires those who hate.

Putin (we have recently learned) personally directed Russia's 2016 internet campaign to get The Donald elected. No wonder Trump praises Putin and Kim Jung Un. He has essentially given Kim a green light to continue nuclear weapons and intercontinental missile programs. By using incompetence. He even lied about making a good deal with Kim. Trump lied. No deal existed. Kim simply played on Trump's ego. Trump lied. Latest numbers put Trump at above 20,000 public lies since becoming president.

Of course he will deny it. It is the nature of his 30 second attention span - that nobody denies.

As so many former Trump advisers note, Trump concedes to other leaders in private meetings. They know how to play his narcissistic mentality. Trump even gave a Russian foreign minister and their ambassador a most sensitive British secret - in the Oval office. Why? Trump's nature is to impress another even at the expense of national security. In this case, to brag how much information he has access to.

Examples of why 'adults who are still children' love scumbags who promote hate. UG a prefect example.

How curious. Other right wingers here remain silent; do not defend that anti-America, racist, Nazi loving, scumbag. But may will vote for him anyway. Another behavior of adults who are still children. They will do what the Central Committee has ordered them to do. They cannot think for themselves. Same type people also brought a Nazi party to Germany.

Did Hitler have more than a 30 second attention span?
Griff • Aug 21, 2020 8:28 pm
Ibby;1056810 wrote:
find her unacceptable, you mean, Griff.

but honestly


My apologies.
BigV • Aug 21, 2020 11:30 pm
Urbane Guerrilla;1056798 wrote:
snip - -

Ibby: not armed, not capable either, bait for tyrants, will lick boots and bootie.


UG thinks Ibby's unarmed, lol. Typical misunderstanding of reality leading to predictably inappropriate responses.


BOO!


Ha ha, madeja flinch.
Ibby • Aug 21, 2020 11:51 pm
wanna hear a real funny one? which one of us do you think is more likely to shoot a fascist, as UG loves to say people need their guns for, and which of us is more likely to vote for one
Undertoad • Aug 22, 2020 10:13 am
You called UG a violent fascist just a half day ago, so it's not funny at all, really.

This is literally the Nazi playbook: define your scapegoat in such a way that it's desirable to kill them.
BigV • Aug 22, 2020 10:22 am
Word to the wise: don't go shooting his mouth off, eh.
sexobon • Aug 22, 2020 2:38 pm
[SIZE="3"]Biden 'would shut [country down]' to stop spread of COVID-19[/SIZE]

Former Vice President Joe Biden said in an exclusive interview with ABC "World News Tonight" Anchor David Muir on Friday that as president, he would shut the country down to stop the spread of COVID-19 if the move was recommended to him by scientists.

“I would shut it down; I would listen to the scientists,” Biden told Muir Friday, alongside his running mate, Sen. Kamala Harris, D-Calif., during their first joint interview since officially becoming the Democratic Party’s presidential and vice presidential nominees. ...


This isn't going to go over very well with the business community. It also makes Biden look too reliant on some factions which may not yield balanced decisions. It's one thing to say he would've given more weight to scientists than Trump; but, another thing altogether saying he'll just go along with whatever the scientists say regardless of other consequences. I don't see this working to his advantage.
BigV • Aug 22, 2020 8:20 pm
Urbane Guerrilla;1056671 wrote:
snip-- taking your AR-15 away --

snip-- quite all right with taking your AR-15 away, ditto ditto.



[quote=our resident dittohead]ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto
ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto


(repeated for historical accuracy)--snip[/QUOTE]

Urbane Guerrilla;1056798 wrote:
snip-- (just the boring parts we've all seen a thousand times, ad hominem attacks, Johnny One Note, crystallized ideology)

Armed society = civilized society. Democratic platform and selling points to yahoos = uncivilized society. (<--- see?)

...


Urbane Guerrilla, I dedicate this video to you:


[YOUTUBEWIDE]7B8Ye0egABs[/YOUTUBEWIDE]
Urbane Guerrilla • Aug 27, 2020 2:44 pm
V, you have those rights you -- and me, and Undertoad, and so on -- can enforce. Since there are about three hundred and thirty million of us who can get equipped, a piece apiece, to do just that, the individual effort is still pretty light.

Now, who of the big boy candidates doesn't want that electorate enforcement capacity?

It is very clear. So very clear.
Urbane Guerrilla • Aug 27, 2020 2:52 pm
Griff;1056806 wrote:
UG, your fantasy is unhealthy and dangerous to democracy. Anticipating you getting nonsensical about republics, our Republic protected actual human slavery, let's be clear eyed while looking backwards.

For a cleareyed instance, note that the founding ideas of the Republic -- written where we can still read them today, into the bargain -- sowed the seeds of slavery's demise. Frederick Douglass -- who has one fewer statue now than once he did, thanks to iconoclastic morons with *no* history -- believed this, and was actuated by this belief.

Read. The Federalist Papers are a good choice, and too neglected nowadays.
Urbane Guerrilla • Aug 31, 2020 4:42 pm
Urbane Guerrilla;1056746 wrote:
Well, if it *were* a commitment to unregulated force, you'd have a point.

Where you'd stop with the regulation is another point needing examining.


And not yet getting that examination after this many days.
Griff • Sep 11, 2020 8:07 am
5th Biden sign stolen last night.
BigV • Sep 11, 2020 9:28 pm
Griff;1057878 wrote:
5th Biden sign stolen last night.


Don't you have a game / trail camera?

But then what would you do with it after you caught it? I think the rule is you can't slaughter it if it has a name.
Clodfobble • Sep 11, 2020 10:31 pm
I saw a video where someone electrified their Trump sign to prevent it from being stolen...
monster • Sep 12, 2020 12:10 am
Clodfobble;1057904 wrote:
I saw a video where someone electrified their Trump sign to prevent it from being stolen...


....so hoping someone does that and the straw-topped satsuma goes over to caress it......
Griff • Sep 12, 2020 7:48 am
I'm gonna put it up a tree.

There is a guy right on the border who to his misfortune has a billboard on the edge of his property. The Trumpets got the billboard so he hung a Biden banner next to his 'merica flag. The Biden banner was stolen off his front porch.

I guess it isn't just us, apparently it's all over rural PA. They aren't shooting us yet though.
sexobon • Sep 12, 2020 8:42 am
The Chinese would like to help you by providing affordable signage:

[SIZE="3"]2020 Joe Biden for President Garden Flag 30*45cm yard lawn sign Hot[/SIZE]

The ad says these signs are "Hot"; so, they could be selling yours back to you!
Griff • Sep 12, 2020 12:44 pm
Thanks China! /s
xoxoxoBruce • Sep 13, 2020 1:08 am
I don't think the trail cam is a given without some hard thinking.
You may not want to know who it is.
Just be thankful there are closet Biden fans who cherish the banner but can't be seen buying one. ;)
Griff • Sep 13, 2020 9:40 am
Pete was walking to the mailbox yesterday when a shiny black pickup full of white males in their early twenties wearing football jerseys started yelling at her and apparently trying to moon her. They turned around and came back through yelling out the wrong window. I guess that's where we are harassing middle-aged white women...
Diaphone Jim • Sep 13, 2020 12:34 pm
I'm beginning to think that the only way to explain supporting Trump is that it is a form of mental illness.
Griff • Sep 13, 2020 3:38 pm
Yeah, a shared psychosis like the Hutu's against the Tutsi's. We all know how that went.
sexobon • Sep 13, 2020 6:16 pm
Griff;1057977 wrote:
Pete was walking to the mailbox yesterday when a shiny black pickup full of white males in their early twenties wearing football jerseys started yelling at her and apparently trying to moon her. ...

Did you offer those peaceful demonstrators some refreshments? A little kindness goes a long way towards better understanding.
Griff • Sep 13, 2020 7:04 pm
They bravely ran away so no exchange of ideas.
sexobon • Sep 13, 2020 8:30 pm
They probably heard about all those violent Biden supporters rioting in other cities and withdrew deciding that discretion is the better part of valor.

Or they thought that Pete might kick their asses.
Ibby • Sep 20, 2020 5:34 pm
Forbes: Trump Threatens To Issue Executive Order Preventing Biden From Being Elected President

In a wide-ranging speech at a campaign rally Saturday night, President Donald Trump ramped up attacks against his opponent, Joe Biden, calling Biden the "dumbest of all candidates," and went so far as to declare, "maybe I'll sign an executive order that you cannot have him as your president."


just having a completely normal one over here
sexobon • Sep 20, 2020 5:51 pm
No worse than when Stephanopoulos asked Pelosi if she would impeach Trump just to stop his SCOTUS nomination and Pelosi replied that Democrats will 'use every arrow in our quiver' to block Trump's Supreme Court nominee.

They're all nuts.
Ibby • Sep 20, 2020 5:54 pm
yes, because "I will decide what candidates are allowed to run against me" and "we will [pretend to] consider prosecuting the president for breaking the law" are definitely equivalent
Undertoad • Sep 20, 2020 6:02 pm
it's an obvious joke, and to underline this, i offer you $1000 to your $20 that he doesn't attempt it

that's 50:1 odds

(we will have to rigidly define "attempt"; i say it means he signs it, whether or not he believes it is constitutional)
Ibby • Sep 20, 2020 6:03 pm
of course he won't attempt it, but its still absolutely astonishing that he would "joke" about it
Undertoad • Sep 20, 2020 6:05 pm
let me get my smelling salts
Ibby • Sep 20, 2020 6:10 pm
[ATTACH]71564[/ATTACH]
sexobon • Sep 20, 2020 6:13 pm
Trump presenting a SCOTUS nominee isn't breaking the law. If there's to be an impeachment on other grounds, it was unconscionable to wait until something like undermining a SCOTUS nomination came up.

Your "[pretend to]" interpretation holds no water in light of the previous impeachment without conviction.

Tragedy tomorrow, comedy tonight.
Ibby • Sep 20, 2020 6:14 pm
cmon, even pelosi isn't dumb enough to actually impeach him six weeks before the election
sexobon • Sep 20, 2020 6:18 pm
You missed your calling as a stand-up comedian.
monster • Sep 20, 2020 7:52 pm
Ibby;1058351 wrote:
of course he won't attempt it, but its still absolutely astonishing that he would "joke" about it


not really. He has zero sense of humor, just doesn't get it, but has realized it's kind of essential for public office and general bonhomie, so is trying to fake it...... but in true spirit can't help but try and exploit the concept at the same time. Now he's figured out people -especially those who are natural jokers- sometimes pass off outrageous comments that didn't go down well as "jokes" it's Donny open season and he's trying hard to establish a reputation as a "joker" to help with that.
Undertoad • Sep 20, 2020 9:02 pm
It's a specific type of persuasion which causes everyone everywhere to think and speak of him every minute of every day. This is the game. I point this out at least once a year. It's a specific tactic to attract attention and suck the air out of the room for anything else. It is trolling. The media falls for it 24x7. And in this thread we are suckers once again. We do his bidding.
sexobon • Sep 20, 2020 9:41 pm
Well sure, it's the only way we can get to see more of Ivanka...

and maybe a pardon if we ever need one.
BigV • Sep 20, 2020 9:51 pm
The words of the President of the United States matter.

They are worthy of our attention, by virtue of the office from which the President speaks.

That President Trump has corrupted this valuable and potent aspect of the office of the President of the United States is a testament to his shame. That he has disgraced this office by his words and actions, my office, my public servant, is a black mark against him, his responsibility for his words and actions. I am offended by his behavior, even if some characterize his behavior as "jokes". Even if his behavior is "trolling". I have higher standards. This country and the office of the Presidency has higher standards.

I'm not perfect, I'm a regular person. I don't consider his "jokes", his "trolling", his actions to put his name and words and face in my headspace, appropriate to the standards of the office to which he's been elected. This, *obviously*, is not an isolated or even uncommon example. It is pure, plain Trump. It is demonstrable, repeated, documented evidence of his unfitness for the office he currently holds.

Let me ask you, do you tell rape jokes? Do you casually, "just joking", talk about using your legally owned weapons to "do something" about his opponents? Do you jokingly talk about any of the factually ridiculous suggestions President Trump has repeatedly made? Would you accept without comment reports that your son has talked about "grabbing them by the pussy".

He does live in my head, but not rent-free. There's a cost, and it's accumulating, though I don't expect to collect until he's out of office. He is a troll. He is unfit for office. His actions do not have a viable path forward.
Ibby • Sep 20, 2020 10:54 pm
and jokes matter. the rise of the internet neo-nazi is built on the power of "jokes" to normalize atrocious behavior and to give plausible deniability. its all just jokes except when it isnt. its all just jokes, except when it's violent fascist rhetoric meant to fan the flames of unrest and violence under the thin veneer of "just joking" when the "libs get triggered" or whatever. thats just as true when the president does it as when pepefan1488 the channer nazi does it.
sexobon • Sep 20, 2020 10:59 pm
The People disgraced the office of the President long before Trump ever got there. People have been treating the office of President like it's a throne to be handed down by political royals like the Kennedys (Camelot), Bushes, Clintons, and there was even talk of the Obamas. People are so easily lulled into letting an elite class make all their decisions for them. The prominence of the office needed to be taken down a few notches to discourage that kind of thinking by abating the conformity to political correctness that faux royalty demands. Trump served that purpose. Whether or not it will be successful, only time will tell. Let the would-be royalists fall by the wayside.
Ibby • Sep 20, 2020 11:18 pm
i hate to like, have to agree with sexobon, but yeah, the office of the president was never special and never anything but the place for the most ambitious and most corrupt to aspire to. i have a little hope that this whole national ordeal will maybe help some people see why maybe having a political structure that depends on our leaders not abusing it is a mistake and why The Presidency Is Bad but we've got a long way to go to get to that
Undertoad • Sep 20, 2020 11:35 pm
weak people are easily trolled and trolls and shitposters understand and depend on this

so ~ stop being weak ~

buck up, enough with all this self-generated misery, resentment and paranoia

and jokes are essential. and btw nobody wants to spend time around someone who is humorless

and that's for good reason
Ibby • Sep 20, 2020 11:50 pm
"if you have a problem with a fascist politician employing fascist rhetoric to inflame violence and rally support, you're weak, and its all just your problem, also you're no fun and have no sense of humor" isn't as compelling an argument as you seem to think is it. if there's anything they depend on its people who would never call themselves fascists, defending them the way you are now.
Undertoad • Sep 21, 2020 12:36 am
define fascist
Ibby • Sep 21, 2020 12:52 am
a short answer would be "a political position or form of government characterized by nationalism, authoritarianism, racial/ethnic hierarchy (white supremacy), and a perception of a state of constant struggle between races/'nations' in which the strong not just will, but must, win in conflict against other 'nations'.", but since no short answer won't get a smug reply from you,
I tend to think that Umberto Eco's essay on Ur-Fascism is pretty comprehensive. it's a long essay, but i'm going to quote liberally from it here.

But in spite of this fuzziness, I think it is possible to outline a list of features that are
typical of what I would like to call Ur-Fascism, or Eternal Fascism. These features cannot
be organized into a system; many of them contradict each other, and are also typical of
other kinds of despotism or fanaticism. But it is enough that one of them be present to
allow fascism to coagulate around it.

1. The first feature of Ur-Fascism is the cult of tradition. [...]
2. Traditionalism implies the rejection of modernism.[...] In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.
3. Irrationalism also depends on the cult of action for action's sake.[...]
4. No syncretistic faith can withstand analytical criticism. The critical spirit makes
distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific
community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge. For Ur-Fascism,
disagreement is treason.
5. Besides, disagreement is a sign of diversity. Ur-Fascism grows up and seeks for
consensus by exploiting and exacerbating the natural fear of difference. [...]
6. Ur-Fascism derives from individual or social frustration. That is why one of the most
typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class[...]
7. To people who feel deprived of a clear social identity, Ur-Fascism says that their only
privilege is the most common one, to be born in the same country. This is the origin of
nationalism. Besides, the only ones who can provide an identity to the nation are its
enemies. Thus at the root of the Ur-Fascist psychology there is the obsession with a plot,
possibly an international one.
[...]
9. For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle. Thus
pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. It is bad because life is permanent warfare. [...]
10. Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology, insofar as it is fundamentally
aristocratic, and aristocratic and militaristic elitism cruelly implies contempt for the weak.
Ur-Fascism can only advocate a popular elitism.
[...]
13. Ur-Fascism is based upon a selective populism, a qualitative populism, one might say. [...]
Ibby • Sep 21, 2020 12:53 am
oh, actually, wikipedia has a really good short definition that it attributes to Stanley G Payne:
1. the "fascist negations": anti-liberalism, anti-communism, and anti-conservatism;
2. "fascist goals": the creation of a nationalist dictatorship to regulate economic structure and to transform social relations within a modern, self-determined culture, and the expansion of the nation into an empire; and
3. "fascist style": a political aesthetic of romantic symbolism, mass mobilization, a positive view of violence, and promotion of masculinity, youth, and charismatic authoritarian leadership
Undertoad • Sep 21, 2020 1:07 am
well gosh and you suggest i have defended such a thing
Ibby • Sep 21, 2020 1:11 am
i suggested trump wants (small-l) liberals to defend his fascist rhetoric as meaningless, unimportant jokes that are actually not as bad as the people who care that he said them, yeah
Ibby • Sep 21, 2020 1:13 am
(i guess you'd prefer the term moderate or centrist to liberal, there - i dont mean liberal as in "not conservative" i mean it in the like, sense of classical liberalism)
Undertoad • Sep 21, 2020 1:21 am
let's say 1990s liberal or maybe pre-2014 liberal

i didn't say not as bad, i think the triggered are slightly less at fault than the trollers

so what do you figure is the most fascist thing dear leader has ever done
Ibby • Sep 21, 2020 1:22 am
what does that even mean
Undertoad • Sep 21, 2020 1:58 am
fascist rhetoric leads to fascist actions. what is the action which is not rhetoric that dear leader has taken that matches the definition of fascism most closely? there are many to choose from. clearing out legit protesters for a photo-op for example would match the definition. it is anti-liberalism and seeks to transform social relations within a modern, self-determined culture, with a positive view of violence. go
Ibby • Sep 21, 2020 2:41 am
I dunno what "most closely matches the definition of" means here really. most egregious? most common to all fascists? most beloved by fascists? my gut instinct is to say probably expanding Obama's concentration camps into full-fledged spraying-people-with-poison, mass-sterilization, torture camps?
Undertoad • Sep 21, 2020 9:34 am
i would say that this wild overstatement and redefinition of terms is a much worse form of rhetoric than jokes, and gives much greater cover and "normalization" to actual fascists

and i'm pretty sure it causes more people to be inclined to vote for him
Ibby • Sep 21, 2020 9:47 am
calling concentration camps concentration camps is NOT worse than running concentration camps what are you TALKING ABOUT
Undertoad • Sep 21, 2020 10:11 am
20 alleged hysterectomies* over six years is "mass sterilization"

because you want the gravitas of calling it that, in order to "win" the argument

this little game is everywhere now, and it's gross

3.5 million people are in actual concentration camps in north korea and china being "reeducated" and/or killed. you are giving cover to this by defining the term down

and i'm pretty sure it causes more people to be inclined to vote for him




*if it was for mass sterilization they could have gotten much further just tying tubes. or using norplant, ffs, then big pharma would have gotten a cut
Ibby • Sep 21, 2020 10:17 am
you heard it here first folks. calling a concentration camp a concentration camp is actually just supporting other concentration camps in other places. being outraged over Dr. "Uterus Collector" and more confirmation of the medical abuse of prisoners in the camps is a little game to win an argument.
how many women have to be forcibly and unnecessarily sterilized by the state before i'm allowed to call it 'mass'?
Clodfobble • Sep 21, 2020 10:23 am
Here's the thing about the hysterectomies, though--all those procedures were done by one doctor, who has been charged and convicted in the past with performing unnecessary procedures (including hysterectomies, and on white women) for the Medicaid payments. The guy's evil, and I think there's something to be said for the state having higher standards than hiring the guy who can't get work in private practice anymore--but he wasn't instructed by the state to sterilize the folks in his care. If anything, the state would rather let them die of whatever small thing brought them into the obgyn clinic in the first place, because it's cheaper. And the guy would rather do the most extreme solution, because it's more expensive. This one's all about money and nothing more, IMHO.
Undertoad • Sep 21, 2020 10:47 am
how can you get masses of people to vote for you, well, one way is to get the opposition to claim you are treating illegal immigrants as harshly as possible when they cross the border to compete for those voters' jobs

then get all the free media and everyone on message boards to share that idea without having to buy a single ad

omg he is putting them in concentration camps...! awesome

you are helping him and you can't even see it
Ibby • Sep 21, 2020 11:00 am
"calling them concentration camps will make people who like concentration camps vote for the guy who likes concentration camps" is a scathing indictment of the system (and an illustration of how fascism is the thing that kills democracies) but not an argument to ignore or downplay them.
Undertoad • Sep 21, 2020 11:20 am
calling them concentration camps will help people who like to have jobs vote for the guy FTFY. Those folks don't believe they are actually concentration camps

the only winning strategy, electorally or in life, is to describe everything accurately

ETA, not insulting the electorate helps too
xoxoxoBruce • Sep 22, 2020 10:35 pm
1. The first feature of Ur-Fascism is the cult of tradition.
footfootfoot • Oct 8, 2020 11:25 pm
The spoor decided, tonight, that Biden could drive to Texas in a Chevy pickup truck, shoot half the game in the state, taxiderm them all himself, buy everyone a new truck, take the Proud Boys and their families out to Barbecue and beer, lynch a black man and he still would lose to Trump in the election.
BigV • Oct 9, 2020 8:15 pm
I don't know what spores the spoor has partaken, but for me--hard pass.

Wow.

+10 on political involvement tho.
sexobon • Oct 16, 2020 5:53 am
Don't you just love it when a plan comes together...

sexobon;1053390 wrote:
Trump is mostly expendable now. ...

... For those of us playing the long game, any Republican would have done in the last election: it just happened to end up being Trump. The strategic objective was to elect whoever could get a conservative majority on the US Supreme court. That keeps liberal justices from appeasing simple majorities by reinterpreting (spinning) the US Constitution to effect change; thus, bypassing the 2/3 majority needed to effect change by changing the Constitution....
Luce • Oct 21, 2020 11:40 am
*shrug*

So the courts get packed.
tw • Oct 21, 2020 12:13 pm
Luce;1060945 wrote:
So the courts get packed.

And gerrymandering disenfranchises voters. And American allies are mocked and disparaged. And Kim is all but told he is permitted to build all the nuclear weapons and intercontinental weapons he wants. While American soldiers are told they no longer need to and are not allowed to train. And American withdrawals all over the world has, for example, permitted China to now become the dominate economic power in Africa. War in Taiwan, and most of east Asia has become likely - ie Sparately and Parcel Islands. American economic stagnation (to be followed four years later by massive job losses) is coming. All environmental protections (that create economic growth) are being removed. Science (the entire source of American strength) is now routinely mocked. The greatest source of American innovation (immigrants) are now being driven out. Hate now so rampant in the streets with KKK, White Supremacists, misogynists, and Nazis now publicly praises. Proving that everyone now needs AK-47s and 105mm howitzers. International economic alliances canceled. Racism inceasing. Nuclear non-proliferation canceled. Nations now producing nerve gases and other weapons of mass destruction - not condemned and even praised. American intelligence community called liars. Promised jobs in steel and coal - never happened. Hundreds of thousands dead because leaders are corrupt. Prosecutors replaced with political hacks to protect corrupt leaders. Corporations now permitted to purchase all the politician they want since corporations are now people. The world being taught by America that democracy does not work. An an increasing Gini index as more Americans continue to become poverty stricken. American companies now selling themselves off, piece by piece, to maintain profits - so that innovation and resulting jobs need not happen. Extremists and Russia now openly promoting disinformation that corrupt leaders say is good.

Don't worry. Be happy. We have a president who lies so much that we need not worry.