There's Lumberthing I don't want to tell you
Ripley committed suicide tonight.
It's to late at night to call my family and tell them this. You guys....
I don't fucking know
I don't know what to do.
I'm sorry
She's not going to get better. She's not sick. She was fine. Now she's dead.
She decided to die. To not be alive anymore. I saw her dead body. She drank sodium nitrate.
Why?
She was going to a concert. She showed us a video montage of her group of friends at college. We talked about her having those friends for years to come, and how awesome it was that she had this video to look back at when they got together. She...
I didn't know her well enough
Sorry. Give me a couple days
I'm going to sleep now. When I wake up, I want this to all be a bad dream.
It's still true this morning?
God
I don't know who Ripley is: your daughter?
Henry, she's his daughter.
Holy fucking shit. I'm so sorry, Jim. I'm so sorry.
yeah, I thought that was it...jeez, but this is a rough road for them
##
I'm gonna light a candle for you and yours, Jim.
Jim, are you going to be with your family today? Have you called them yet? You need to be somewhere where loved ones can hug you and you can hug them. Have you seen Spencer yet? I don't remember if he lives anywhere near you now.
God, man, I'm sobbing for you. I didn't know her, but I knew her, you know? This sucks so hard.
This is horrible. I am so sorry to hear of this. It's beyond words.
Please take care of yourself
I'm ok. Just calling my family and crushing them one by one
Spencer is with Shelby. Her sister is there I think.
She was fine. We just spent Sunday together. Spencer said her browser history and search history go back 2 weeks looking at sodium nitrate dosage. Forums for pro choice suicide shit.
Her decision. Not an impulse. No notes left other than I love you on a scrap of paper.
I can't fix it
dude im so so sorry to hear this ��
Oh my God Jim!
My heart breaks for you.
Please don't blame yourself - YOU ARE A GOOD PERSON!!!! The mind is unpredictable and even the top experts can't fix thoughts.
We humans are broken from the start, we can only do what we can do.
Shit fuck cry, we care too, mostly for you, but for Amanda, Shelby, Spenser, family, friends, classmates, dwellers, it ripples out, it hurts, it's not fair goddamnit, all we can do is cry and wonder why, if there's something we did or could have done, thoughts of my sister rush in, fuckfuckfuckfuck how to tell you how sorry I am can't doesn't help you anyway fuck
I know.
Thanks. I don't think I blame anyone really. She did this on purpose. She didn't leave any indication of why. So trying to figure that out is pure suffering. I'll try not to.
I'm in a fucking daze
i'm sorry, I don't know what to say.
Don't feel like you have to say anything, anyone. I know you guys care and feel for me. You're part of my tribe. Some of you feel like family. This is really rough shit.
I was just thinking life was going really well lately.
Monster just went through /is still going through this, and I felt helpless to help her. So don't. I'm ok. I'm going to be sad for a time. We all are. But the fucking sun will still rise.
The whole thing is just so unbelievable. Like it can't be possible.
She was.
And she was
And
And
And
So beautiful. Funny. Smart.
All that is gone
Gone
Oh Jim. How awful. There are no words. I lost my brother to suicide 14 years ago today. The love remains, but there are no new experiences to share. There is no bitterer loss than for a parent to outlive their child in such a way. But you are right, it was her decision. And UT is right, you are not to blame. You are a good person. X
Sent by magick
Sorry you have to endure this kind of pain Jim.
Damn man. I’ve lost cousins to suicide. You won’t ever forget her. The cousin I was close to lives in me and my family we still share the stories. I’m so sorry for your pain, this is too horrible.
You are a good person. X
Naw, he's a dickhead like the rest of us, bumbling through life like we all do. But you're certainly right in this tragedy is not his doing, he's one of the victims.
Nothing new to report. She's gone. I don't need to do anything. There's nothing I need help with.
Went to work today. Pretty hard to see the sympathy on people's faces. The inexplicable hand shakes. Hugs. Please don't hug me.
Hugging provides pocket picking opportunities with men, and hugging ladies is reward enough in itself. ;)
I can’t imagine the loss. Approach this the way you need too not how others seem to expect.
I can't either. It's like trying to comprehend how far away the sun is.
It all seems 1000 miles away. And then it rushes in and knocks me flat on my back.
Just can't think on it. But I feel like I should process it. To get a grip on it. Just not today. Not while I'm at work.
You will process it, in time. But don't "should" yourself.
Clod is right. There is no “should”. As you say, sometimes it’s a million miles away, as though it never happened. And sometimes it kicks you in the guts with literally physical force. Feel what you feel. Do what’s right for you. We’re all here for you, buddy. X
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My Mother said it took a year to sink in.
OMG, I'm so sorry, I've kind of been skimming recently and totally missed this.
You will process it, in time. But don't "should" yourself.
Clod is right. There is no “should”. As you say, sometimes it’s a million miles away, as though it never happened. And sometimes it kicks you in the guts with literally physical force. Feel what you feel. Do what’s right for you. We’re all here for you, buddy. X
These things.
I did not go through this, I had 2.5 years' warning and it wasn't my child. I can't even and don't want to imagine. But I am bereaved. If I can help in any way at any point now or in the future, LMK.
Good morning Jim
I am far away, but you are continuously on my mind. I hope hour by hour you're OK, doing what you need to do and getting the love and support you need. I'm with you man.
I wish there was something I needed to do. Something to make those hours shorter. I've got the fukkitz bad. Wrecked the neck of the guitar I'm working on. I'll have to start over, but I just don't feel like it. Took 2 naps so far. Would have been a great day to ride, but fuck it. I don't feel safe as distracted as I am. I'm liable to zone out and get myself killed. So I'm smoking too much and not eating, so what. I want to help Shelby, but can't. Not that I could even if she'd talk to me. My son is with her and I talk to him.
They live in a bad place now, and I'm trying to get her to move away. To get out of the house where it happened. Her sister and family are with her, and I guess she's ok. Amanda is hurting too, and I feel bad for her because she feels so bad for me. It feeds back on itself.
Everyone is hurt, and everyone feels bad for me and I feel bad for them for it and the awkward things they say to me. The owner of the dealership came into my office and shook my fucking hand yesterday afternoon. Stood there a moment... And then asked me who found her.
Fuck, Alan. No.
I just shook my head and looked at my computer and said, I don't really want to talk about it. He just spun on his heel and left. He probably feels like shit. No one knows what to do or what to say. I sure as hell don't either.
It seems like this is going to take a long time to become real.
There is some silver lining. Her student loans should be discharged. And for whatever reason, through 2025 that is not considered taxable income. 33k. Would have been salt in the wound.
And I've lost 20 lbs.
… No one knows what to do or what to say. I sure as hell don't either.
It seems like this is going to take a long time to become real.
I knew what to say: [post=1032964]Graciously acknowledge your adversity.[/post]
I know what to do: [post=962222]Graciously celebrate elsewhere[/post] as this becomes real.
Sometimes all that's left for us to do is try to remain gracious in the face of adversity.
Easier said than done.
They live in a bad place now, and I'm trying to get her to move away. To get out of the house where it happened.
IMO don't do this. It's too early and they need to make this decision for themselves. The house might also contain good memories for them.
Perhaps you can sort through the pics you have online and pick the best for an album/montage -I see you've already started and if it's too hard, stop, but it might help you as well as other friends and relatives who want to remember.
Maybe volunteer somewhere that needs physical labor -digging community gardens or cleaning up riverbed or....? Something that gets you out, doing something, that will help you sleep (better) and give you just enough to concentrate on that your mind doesn't wander where you don't want it to go. Also, they won't mind if it does and you fuck up :)
I don't know, I'm sorry, I can't imagine. I've thought about pretty much nothing else all day :( I'm here if you need. I can also be there if you need. I know we've never met, but you're my friend. Just let me know.
I knew what to say: [post=1032964]Graciously acknowledge your adversity.[/post]
I know what to do: [post=962222]Graciously celebrate elsewhere[/post] as this becomes real.
Sometimes all that's left for us to do is try to remain gracious in the face of adversity.
Easier said than done.
Your links don't load for me, but bully for you. Glad you have the requisite training to deal with the effect this had on your life.
I want as few people to be hurt by this as can be. It's what hurts me most right now. The sympathy.
IMO don't do this. It's too early and they need to make this decision for themselves. The house might also contain good memories for them.
Perhaps you can sort through the pics you have online and pick the best for an album/montage -I see you've already started and if it's too hard, stop, but it might help you as well as other friends and relatives who want to remember.
Maybe volunteer somewhere that needs physical labor -digging community gardens or cleaning up riverbed or....? Something that gets you out, doing something, that will help you sleep (better) and give you just enough to concentrate on that your mind doesn't wander where you don't want it to go. Also, they won't mind if it does and you fuck up :)
I don't know, I'm sorry, I can't imagine. I've thought about pretty much nothing else all day :( I'm here if you need. I can also be there if you need. I know we've never met, but you're my friend. Just let me know.
There's more to it. She moved to Chester recently. Chester is not a nice place. She's on 11th st. That's not a nice part of that place.
She moved there because she could afford it, and they have a small yard for the dog. (Ripley 's dog).
Largely to be closer to Spencer who was attending Widener University. He dropped out 2 weeks after she signed a 2 year lease. Now he's just afloat and not working yet, deciding what to do next. Then this happened. She needs to get out of there as soon as she can. Ripley was only there for 3 weeks or so. She had been living on campus in Philly.
I'm not in direct communication with her, but can talk with her sister, Tara. I've offered to pay whatever it costs to break the lease and get into a safer home. I was only there twice. Once Saturday evening to pick Ripley up for our last visit, and again to drop her back off. I saw multiple cops interacting with skeevie looking people both times. It's like Compton.
Not safe.
As far as activities, I hear you. If I don't have something specific to occupy my mind, she rises up in my consciousness. And I lose my concentration very easily. That's how I ruined that neck. Twice. I just need time to go by. To have that first person who doesn't know yet ask me how the kids are... Fuck me. This is bad. I wouldn't recommend it.
11th in Chester? Jesus fucking Christ, has she lost her mind? :facepalm:
The way the support thing works is Shelby leans on Spencer (and others) Spencer leans on you (and others) you lean on Amanda (and us). And so on, in multiple directions. Each person's support network is further out.
Sent by magick
I'm so sorry to hear this.
Pete invited me to a party tonight, and we went. Cool party.
[youtube]ZzKVrYQM57c[/youtube]
Wouldn't have been invited, or gone if not for this horror.
Food for thought.
Have to chew on that.
I hope the neighbors were invited. :haha:
I just found out this past winter whenever HYJINX would come over to rehearse at my house my neighbors across the street on the hill would sit out on their patio with drinks and groove on the music. I only found that out indirectly.
Pete invited me to a party tonight, and we went. Cool party.
[youtube]ZzKVrYQM57c[/youtube]
Wouldn't have been invited, or gone if not for this horror.
Food for thought.
Cool folk doing cool stuff.
Reminded me a lot of the dead shows and rainbow family gatherings, but more sanitary and talented.
I just need time to go by. To have that first person who doesn't know yet ask me how the kids are.
Just had dad and 19yo daughter buying a car.
You have kids?
Yup.
Lied right to his face.
I just saw this - fucking hell. I can't fathom what this must be like for you Jim, for all of you
I'm glad you went to Pete's party. It sounds like it did you good.
It's ok to lie to strangers about it, right?
For now?
For a while yet?
Probably better than telling them it's none of there fucking business, although that might be better than telling them the truth.
I watched an autistic guy on America's got talent tonight.
He sang and played piano. I'm sure it was a mimic thing. But it was gorgeous. She missed it.
How do you leave such an interesting place?
Come back
Oh man. I am No fun to be around.
Just don't even say anything
Shush
Don't be, your thread you can say anything you damn well please.
It's ok to lie to strangers about it, right?
For now?
For a while yet?
It wasn't a lie . For several reasons. And certainly not as much as when you shook hands and they said "how are you?" and you didn't say "fucking shit actually"
It's ok to lie to strangers about it, right?
For now?
For a while yet?
It’s not a lie. I have two brothers. One killed himself, but that doesn’t stop him from being my brother. I always say I have two brothers.
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It’s not a lie. I have two brothers. One killed himself, but that doesn’t stop him from being my brother. I always say I have two brothers.
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I have a friend whose baby died a few hours after birth. (It was fully expected, but the deformity was discovered too late to terminate in her state, so she had to finish the pregnancy.) This was 11 years ago, but she still always says she has 4 kids, not 3.
But also and entirely separately, lie your face off anytime you damn well please. They're strangers and you don't owe them anything.
Not outwardly. Not at all. I hadn't seen her since Christmas before last Sunday. I was more concerned about the boy. Man. He dropped out of Widener and was in a funk. No one.. No. One. Saw this coming.
She had been visiting a forum that discussed how to do this. I can't bring myself to look at it. Don't remember the name of it. But my sister went through it. She had never posted. Another girl did the same exact thing the same day.
https://www.ydr.com/story/news/2019/05/29/did-pro-suicide-website-contribute-shawn-shatto-death-pennsylvania-family-thinks-so/1268146001/
They didn't know each other as far as I know. But the recipe is there. How much to drink, what to do in the days leading up. When to tell someone to call an ambulance so you don't actually die in the home, but too late to save you. To go and have good visits with those you love. Sick sick sick.
I wish to hell I had any clue of what was so bad about her life. But I never will.
I doubt there was anything objectively bad about her life Jim.
Look, I may be speaking out of turn here, and I don't know what was going on in someone else's head, but I can speak to a mindset that almost led me to a similar place when I was 16 or 17. The thing that tipped me was not that life was so terrible - it was a mindset. It was all the confusion and stuff people deal with when they're young, but for some reason, I just couldn't.
The world was different then though - there weren't any forums with expert advice on how to succeed, so I failed. It's only when you fail, that you can learn that wasn't really what you wanted.
Those forums are fucking poison. Every single one of them posting advice and expertise, holds a little piece of the blame for this. imo.
Jim. You're a good man.
Go through the process. Do you have a therapist? Please don't internalize this.
If there's anything I can possibly do from Oregon, I'm here for you.
I don't know if I've said this already, but I've had this kind of shock before, this loss. When Shelby asked me to move out. Not nearly as abrupt or painful, but kind of similar. I'll get through it. I'll lose a bunch of weight. I'll be sad unless I'm forcing myself to be happy... Until I'm happy again. I doubt I'll ever be pure happy again... There will always be this pain. But I'm ok. I'll see the sun rise again.
Thanks though.
[QUOTE=DanaC;1033195:
Those forums are fucking poison. Every single one of them posting advice and expertise, holds a little piece of the blame for this. /
Blame. Not sure how I feel about blame. I don't feel any. I am sure I did everything I could do with the cards I was dealt. I loved her and I treated her gently. Never raised my voice since she was 10. I don't blame Shelby. Not even a little.
Those people on that forum are accruing some scary karma, but I can't blame Them. They don't care about the people that use their sick fucking recipe. I'm going to hate that word from now on, by the way. Recipe.
Ripley had 18 years to learn to know better than to do that. I'm disappointed. I disagree with her decision. But I didn't get a vote. If anyone gets the blame, it's her. What the fuck do I know though. Who cares about blame? Doesn't change anything. It's just that there is information available for everything, and some things are really bad. She made the decision with a brain that I don't have, and therefore can't think with, so I'll never know the motive.
But even if I did. If I had a note she left with the reasons. ...
....
.
Do you have plans for a funeral/gathering of remembrance ...whatever word the kids are using these days?
That's been put on the back burner. Could be a couple weeks or more
Jim, I just got nothing. I'm so bereft for you. i want to... ... I don't know because there's nothing I can..... ......
I totally agree about blame ..even if you could figure out who or what to blame, it wouldn't help.
Right.
So it's Wednesday.
You're fortunate you know your job well enough to run on autopilot for a bit if you have to.
Your undercoating/Scotchguarding sales might slip a little but that's OK. :p:
Yeah, whatever. I won't get fired.
I've done it 21,000 times.
I'm sitting over here, not posting. Because what is there to say?
I think about you all often, and wish I could help make it better.
[QUOTE=DanaC;1033195:
Those forums are fucking poison. Every single one of them posting advice and expertise, holds a little piece of the blame for this. /
Blame. Not sure how I feel about blame. I don't feel any. I am sure I did everything I could do with the cards I was dealt. I loved her and I treated her gently. Never raised my voice since she was 10. I don't blame Shelby. Not even a little.
Those people on that forum are accruing some scary karma, but I can't blame Them. They don't care about the people that use their sick fucking recipe. I'm going to hate that word from now on, by the way. Recipe.
Ripley had 18 years to learn to know better than to do that. I'm disappointed. I disagree with her decision. But I didn't get a vote. If anyone gets the blame, it's her. What the fuck do I know though. Who cares about blame? Doesn't change anything. It's just that there is information available for everything, and some things are really bad. She made the decision with a brain that I don't have, and therefore can't think with, so I'll never know the motive.
But even if I did. If I had a note she left with the reasons. ...
....
.
[emoji175]
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I'm sitting over here, not posting. Because what is there to say?
I think about you all often, and wish I could help make it better.
thanks.
mornings are the hardest. such fukkitz, so very don't care. whatevs.
beautiful day. great.
Youre right about the blame. It's not helpful, really
spencer sent a copy of the note. it just says, "I'm sorry I'm so, so sorry. I love you so much"
on a postcard.
Oh Jim! How very sad! X
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My heart is breaking for you all. Again and again. <3
I would take some comfort knowing that she knew the pain she was causing, which means that she knew she was loved. And that she loved you.
It doesn't remotely explain why, but it's something.
I don't want to grasp for rationale. Or even comfort. It's been a week, and it's healing.
Seeing the note only gave me a visual of the scene. I feel so bad for my son who was there when she did it. Just the note gutted me.
But, my guts are all dry and frayed anyway, so.
I had posted the pic, but took it right down to spare y'all that reaction.
Getting through it.
"There" as in "in the house," right? I really hope he didn't (unknowingly) watch her ingest it... :(
It's ok to lie to strangers about it, right?
For now?
For a while yet?
hey Jim.
say what you like. tell them a lie, tell them the truth, shout "squirrel!". whatevz. Some people might welcome the truth and respond accordingly. I did, but I'm not a stranger.
My point is, help yourself. Take care of yourself. Let the reactions of other people belong to the other people.
Meanwhile, I'm here, we're here. For you.
"There" as in "in the house," right? I really hope he didn't (unknowingly) watch her ingest it... :(
No. He was down in his room in the basement. He came up when he heard yelling after Ripley told Shelby to call 911.
He also sent me a mock obituary she had done. Presumably for a college assignment. She was survived by her mother, her brother and her dog. Dated October 2028. Cause of death, falling into the grand canyon.
I must have been dead already by then.
This is eating my ass.
Jim.
Her mind was bent some way *already*. Look at the result.
Maybe you were forgotten and that's on her for forgetting. Maybe maybe maybe maybe..
My friend. Please. I'm not hugging you -- as you made clear.
However, please have a little mercy on yourself.
Other people's actions and reactions belong to the other people.
You're in charge of you.
I can't speak for her. I can't speak for you. I'll speak for myself, You. Are. Not. Forgotten.
No. He was down in his room in the basement. He came up when he heard yelling after Ripley told Shelby to call 911.
Holy Fucking Shit, I assumed they just found her after the event
He also sent me a mock obituary she had done. Presumably for a college assignment. She was survived by her mother, her brother and her dog. Dated October 2028. Cause of death, falling into the grand canyon.
I must have been dead already by then.
This is eating my ass.
DO NOT let this eat your ass. If it's mock and/or a college assignment, it's fiction.
My best friend in high school told every foreign language examiner that her mother was a pilot and her father was dead. Neither were true, but she got shorter exams with fewer unprepped questions than everyone else....
… I must have been dead already by then.
Or she just forgot me.
Or she just expediently listed those living under the same roof/registered at the same address 'cause it was just a college assignment (presumably). :eyebrow:
Cope however you feel is right for you. Push us away if you need room or just tell us to shut up. But please please please, don't push Amanda away, trust me, this is important.
Jim.
...
please have a little mercy on yourself.
Other people's actions and reactions belong to the other people.
You're in charge of you.
I can't speak for her. I can't speak for you. I'll speak for myself, You. Are. Not. Forgotten.
This.
And Bruce is right, too. Cope in the way you need to, and rely on Amanda.
What you describe is unimaginable.
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Help your peace of mind by keeping an open mind about whatever else comes to light, that Ripley has done, since Ripley can no longer explain them.
You can remind yourself to do this by remembering that you put your own daughter's death announcement in a forum titled Nothingland: Something about nothing - ... time-wasters, for the whole internet connected world to see. Would it be fair for the world to judge how you felt about your daughter on nothing more than that?
It just added a layer of regret that I wasn't more involved in her daily. Spencer said she thought I'd be dead by then. Because I smoke and drink and don't eat healthy.
Tara texted to tell me that the cremation is compete. I went to reply and swype brought up the word, Ashley. Ash-ley. Ripley is ashes now.
Really gone.
Because I smoke and drink and don't eat healthy.
Turns out, that is the crazy default human condition, which we all share:
We don't care for ourselves, and we don't take care of ourselves, even under penalty of shame, pain, and death. And nobody, it seems, can make us do that. Even our loved ones.
We don't believe we are valuable. The idea that Ripley is not valuable is a laughable idea. Her potential, unmistakable. But we all have a light that we can't see for ourselves. We are all beautiful and important, every one of us.
My friend decided not to treat her cancer, that was the same thing. She had such a bright light, but she couldn't see it. You and I treat ourselves poorly, that is the same goddamn thing.
Couple of months ago J had chest pains -- and fought tooth and nail going to the ER. I had to force her to go. Her family has a history of heart trouble.
But we all have a light that we can't see for ourselves.
I think we all have an inner light only we can see. Others can't see it, or more importantly see when it goes out.
… I went to reply and swype brought up the word, Ashley. Ash-ley. Ripley is ashes now.
Really gone.
RIP-ley, a little gentler.
Every song has a line that hurts me right now. Spencer made a playlist of songs they both like. She had relatively shit taste in music, thank fuck. Or a lot of my songs would be wrecked for me.
This one almost caught me at work tonight.
[youtube]exUzeu35Lyo[/youtube]
because of these lines.:
Old stars, filling up my throat
You gave 'em to me when I was born
Now they're coming out
Laying there on the hospital bed
eyes narrow, blue and red
Took a draw of breath and said to me
"You saw the masterpiece
She looks a lot like me
Wrapping my left arm around your right
Ready to walk you through the night"
The lyric sites say, 'as an arrow blue and red'
But it's clearly, 'your eyes were narrow, blue and red'
Her eyes were brown. But her eyelids were blue and her eyes were bloodshot and slightly open. And half her left tit was exposed.
When I got to the hospital, Shelby was alone in the doorway. She said only, "she died"
My head swam. Felt like I was going to fall down.
I had to walk through the place with all eyes on me as I went around the desk area and to a blue curtain. There was a body on the table. Her hair.
I came into the room from behind her right shoulder. I don't remember how I got to the other side. Her head was tilted left, away from me. Did I walk around her feet or head? I put my hand on her brow. She was warm.
Then a small female doctor was at my left elbow. I was bewildered. She said, she drank a poison that bonds to red blood cells. No oxygen can attach.
She offered a chair. Maybe I swooned. I declined. Said something stupid about it just being another Thursday to them. It was Wednesday.
That's something that stuck with me from a TV show. Tuesday.
That line in that song.brought these images back.
Then Shelby came in. She pulled the blanket over her boob and layed across her. I didn't have any idea what to do. None. I couldn't hold either of them. Ripley was wearing the scarab earrings Amanda had just given her. Amanda was ghost white. We left Shelby with her and went to find Spencer. He was sitting on the curb outside. He said something disturbing like, she didn't change her mind. She never said she didn't want to die.
I haven't seen him since. Talk to him nearly every day, but he's fine. He is grieving alone.
When Shelby came back out, I tried to apologize for some stupid text about our cats. Then tried to offer help relocating. Ridiculous. Asshole.
She hitd her face and told me to shut up. So I hugged my boy and told him not to do this. Then I drove home. Hadn't shed a tear yet. Until I touched my doorknob. No. I touched the lavender Ripley had just planted
Then sobs and tripping feet took me to the kitchen sink. I cry ugly. Not good at it.
I'm writing this here so I can remember the surreal feeling. Don't know if I'm getting it. I'm feeling very sorry for myself. And guilty for that. I cried in the car on the way home listening to that song. And when Amanda greeted me she knew. And I fled to the bathroom and let some more snot bubbles out of my nose. Then I went up to my bed and laid down. Thought I had got my shit together, but when I came back down, the pain on her face chased me to the porch. Where the phone rang in my pocket at 10:45 that night.
There's nowhere to hide from it. Just have to keep going through it. I can tell myself lots of smart things. I'm very good at that. Bullshit talk.
My Forte.
I've been wondering how you are doing. Your description is very vivid and certainly catches the surreality, for me at least.
Don't beat yourself up about stuff.
Sent by magick
Oh Jim - I can't even...
What Limes said, be as kind as you can to yourself, hon.
Seems like every other night I let it through my guard. Last night was longer but less intense sadness. Saturday night it hit me out of nowhere, I don't remember what triggered it, but I suddenly found myself welling up. Felt lost and helpless and not up to the task of grieving her.
It's a pill I have to swallow one jagged shard at a time. Seems like the pill is about the size of my house. But pointier.
I haven't had any dreams about her yet. Day 13.
She's the first person I really loved that has died. Not to say I didn't love Biff or my grandparents, but they were more like acquaintances to be honest. Only saw them once a year or less. This is my little girl. My Smoochie.
Ippy. My phone knows that word.
I'm considering getting a tattoo. She had this beetle on her shoulder.
That or, "Goodnight, Smoochie". Or something. I saw where you can have ashes infused into tattoo ink. Creepy. I won't do that. Just something small where I can see it. I was hoping to find out who the artist that did her beetle was and go there.
The weather is so nice lately. Feeling at peace in this moment.. Sitting on my porch with coffee.
I'm sad she's missing this live air and bird song, but it doesn't lessen the beauty. Gentle breeze, flowers surrounding me. Clear cool air.
Future Jim, stay in the present. Quit fucking around with remorse. If you feed it, it will become stronger than you and eat your soul. Pull it back to the now. Use both hands.
See? Smart bullshit talk.
True, but I'm feeling like I need to feel this pain fully so I can start healing. This big chunk that's been bitten out of my life. It's raw and it saps my strength. But. In this moment, what is lacking? She wouldn't be sitting here with me anyway. I wouldn't have thought to reach out to her over just another pretty morning. Just normal life.
I think I'll get working on the present tense focus again. Maybe listen to that book again.
Love you all, and thank you for all the kind words. And sorry to bring this rain into your lives. It's a huge help to me to be able to cry and scream and blubber and wail and sob and reflect and regret and put these thoughts down to get them out of my head.
I found a MSWord Doc on my PC, I wrote at the end of a long day where I left Cape Cod, went to my mother's funeral, and came home. I remember how it helped to get my head straight after a jumble of thoughts on the 5 hour drive home after the funeral. Didn't change anything, just putting it down in writing forced me to sort it all out. Maybe because I'm a hunt and peck typer, writing things down I tend to filter out extraneous bullshit and get to the point sooner.
Jim, you're turning to your friends. And we're here for you. It's what friends do. Corny as that sounds, it works.
I find I am thinking about it regularly, and caring regularly.
It is a feeling of powerlessness, less than a tiny fraction of the size of your own feeling of powerlessness.
I'm sure. And thank you. And you
And you.
I did spend the remainder of the morning listening to mr Tolle. He has a new tome called Practicing the Power of Now. It's a more direct instruction on keeping your awareness in the moment. I had goose bumps several times as I visualized the techniques. The man is on point.
Big help. I'm actually in a good mood today. Holy shit.
It's a huge help to me to be able to cry and scream and blubber and wail and sob and reflect and regret and put these thoughts down to get them out of my head.
Yeah. That's what we're here for. It's what we can do.
Every man is embarrassed by his crying, because it's not like the movies where the man, lit by the sunset or campfire, has a tear run down his cheek at a respectable rate. Not too fast like a girly man, but not too slow like an insensitive lout.
The movies will never show the blubbering, snot bubbles, trembling of real life.:headshake
I don't have anything good to add, except that I'm reading, and I'll keep reading whatever you write about her.
Though I think you already have, I advise finding a private place and cry unrestrainedly, without reserve.
Wail, scream, sob until your eyes blur and burn and your throat hurts.
An hour, two or more is not too long.
And again and again is not too many.
It has helped me in such times.
Though I think you already have, I advise finding a private place and cry unrestrainedly, without reserve.
Wail, scream, sob until your eyes blur and burn and your throat hurts.
An hour, two or more is not too long.
And again and again is not too many.
It has helped me in such times.
Yeah. Me too.
I wrote a little thing so I'd be ready when people decide they want a service for her. Spencer says he would not attend, doesn't need it. From what I'm hearing, Shelby is ambivalent and is deferring to his choice. Her sister deferring to her, etc. So if there is to be a service, I may have to instigate it.
And I'm torn. I had been feeling like I was waiting for some kind of closure, so I could move on. But since I've been re learning to take shelter in the present moment, that feeling has dissolved.
I know my family is expecting some kind of thing... And there is a picnic planned at the end of this month. So, I'm feeling like if we haven't done it by then, that could turn into it. And I really don't want to ruin that event.
I just don't want to push her mother and my son.
I guess it's not that big a deal.
A commemorative event can be held at any time.
For my brother we had a humanist service, where friends and relatives spoke, at the time of his cremation. And then quite a while later we scattered his ashes in his favourite place and that too, involved friends and relatives, and had a very different vibe to it.
I do understand you not wanting to push Shelby or Spencer, but you must look after yourself and what you need, too.
I'm content as is. I'm looking forward to having Spencer over Saturday night. I'll let him talk about it if he wants, but won't ask questions or try to pry into his head. He's super stubborn. Usually goes contrary to what i advise. kids.
As I re listen to the power of now, I'm realizing that the huge pill of grief analogy is quite wrong.
That mountain of grief I felt I needed to process one shard at a time. No. Just seeing it as external is the beginning of realizing that it is not me. Looking into the future with dread, how long will I grieve? Will I forever be the guy whose daughter killed herself? Daunting.
But the truth is, I'm just me. In this moment, I'm calm and safe. If my mind slides back to memories or forward to dread, there's the pain. Separate from who I am. It's as easy as recognizing that those concerns are not myself. I'm the observer of those feelings. Insulated at will by the mere observation of the pain. As soon as I see it, it evaporates. There is no pill. Unless I feed the pain.
I've felt the pain of the loss, felt the dread of days to come with her removed. I've cried and fallen down. Do I want more pain? No.
My pain wants more pain. I am not my pain.
I'm just me.
My pain wants more pain.
This is very real and true. I'm not sure if I'm me separate from my pain, necessarily, but I have certainly observed the spiraling tendency of pain to beget more pain. Today's pain doesn't have to determine tomorrow's pain, and no good comes out of imagining and obsessing over tomorrow's pain just so today's pain can feel even worse.
I guess that's why your dread of well meaning handshakes and hugs, forcing you and the pain together.
Forgive us, we know not what we do. :o
This is very real and true. I'm not sure if I'm me separate from my pain, necessarily, but I have certainly observed the spiraling tendency of pain to beget more pain. Today's pain doesn't have to determine tomorrow's pain, and no good comes out of imagining and obsessing over tomorrow's pain just so today's pain can feel even worse.
But you are separate from your pain. Use it to alert you that you are dwelling in time other than the present. See it, suss it, and release it. Stop thinking in words for a moment. Focus on where you are and what you are doing with all of your attention. If you only get 3 minutes of peace, then that's 3 good minutes. It is hard to do, but like anything, you get better at it. You'll have longer gaps in the pain.
Oh, Jim. I've just found this thread and my heart is breaking for you and your family. :sniff:
From you latest posts, I can tell that you're working hard to process and accept what is, and I'm glad for that. Just remember that we all grieve in our own way - there is no right or wrong - and sometimes what helps you today won't work tomorrow. Do what you must for yourself, minute by minute. Lean on others if/when you need to, or push them away if that feels better.
:(
Thanks Glinda, sorry to bum you out. I give this advice all the time, and taking it myself has been a boon. Acceptance, surrender to it, peace with it.
I wish I could help others do it without being annoying about it.
Her friend posted this
http://youtu.be/2WIOoeAfyQM… I wish I could help others do it without being annoying about it. ...
That's done by remembering it's not everyone's cup of tea. There will be things that work for you and things that don't work for you. Likewise for others. It's fine to make others aware; but, your "helping" them may not be welcome:
10. Express what works for you.
Find your voice, and share with others what you’re thinking and feeling in a rational way. If you continue to communicate with others what works for you and doesn’t work for you, you’ll no longer bottle up your emotions. Expressing yourself is an important part of feeling good about yourself and your relationships.
My psych evals for high intensity military assignments indicate that I'm one of the most emotionally stable people anyone will ever meet; yet, I don't make the conscious effort along the lines that you're doing. Other techniques work for me.
You're so fucking awesome. How do you stand yourself?
Consider what you are doing.
My comment was reactionary. I apologize. I know you have no ill intent.
If you have a list that gets you through all life situations, and it gives you comfort or reassurance that you're doing it right, then God bless.
Jim, know that if there was something I could do to change this for you, I would.
known.
all I can change is how it affects me. and try to help my son and ex. and mom, and sister, and dad, and ex mother n law, sister in law, etc etc. Amanda not on that list because she's right there with me at this point.
I will not identify with this tragedy, as some folks are wont to do. it's humbling, certainly, but I'll take what positive can be taken, and try not to allow it to impair my ability to experience joy, or love for others.
I also think this calm has come much faster than I expected. Maybe I'm in the 'you're fucking kidding your self' stage of grief.... and I assume there will be moments where I am caught off guard and the tears will come again. for ever i guess?
it's all OK.
As long as you've got Amanda by your side you'll be OK. :thumb:
My concern over my son's state of mind has been assuaged. I didn't know it, but he's been studying philosophy on his own for 2+ years. Listening to a Podcast called philosophize this.
He draws from Stoicism (taken with a grain of salt) and Socrates, and Foucault. Anyway, I'm satisfied that he's not just blocking out the loss. He's just well equipped to accept it.
Still some concern for Shelby, but she has her own support network and doesn't welcome my concern. This is ok too. Her mother is taking it hard, identifying and dwelling in the grief. I spoke on the phone with her for about an hour and a half yesterday, and think I may have cracked the door to helping her surrender to the reality of her loss. I hope. I will follow up.
Just checking in with you guys, really. To let you know that I've turned the corner and the wound is closing. Still itches some, but I can deal with that.
One Moment, Please.
He draws from Stoicism (taken with a grain of salt)
That's wonderful! It should really help.
and Socrates,
Of course! The foundation.
and Foucault.
Aw shit. Well two out of three. :D (grin like i know what i'm talking about)
but she has her own support network and doesn't welcome my concern
Totally unfair followup: does she have concern for you?
Not to my knowledge. I am no longer a source of income for her. Pretty sure she'd rather I were pushing up daisies myself.
That no longer hurts to say. After all this time, and in this circumstance, even her mother and sister are at a loss to explain the hatred she holds on to. The only thing I can think is that she must love me very much to carry this hatred for so long.
That doesn't hurt either.
I wish her the best.
Well, they do say hatred and love are two sides of the same coin.
After all this time, and in this circumstance, even her mother and sister are at a loss to explain the hatred she holds on to. The only thing I can think is that she must love me very much to carry this hatred for so long.
It gets even weirder when they don't act like they hate you anymore-- acting as everything is "back to normal" after eviscerating you, setting up a fail-proof scheme to literally ruin your life and reputation with everyone in your 10,000-person town.
I wouldn't know. Seems strange. I've only been in 3 committed relationships. I'm still in one, and the previous 2 ended with compete cessation of communication. Well... 4, but 2 were with the same girl. The first time I walked away, she did the second time.
It does make me scratch my head and wonder what it is about me that makes women end things so abruptly. Maybe just life prepping me for what just happened. It doesn't get any more abrupt than that shit.
I doubt it's anything about you. Some people are just like that - they love and then they hate. I've known a few people like that. It's like ...after a breakup you expect someone to bitch about their ex a bit - usually, most people in my experience kinda wobble between anger or hatred and affection or need - sometimes just the anger or hate, but even then it usually loses its fire after a bit.
I've known a few people that just don't move past the hate.
Could be I guess. I was thinking that because I'm kind of persuasive and logical when I speak, they didn't trust themselves to hold to their decision to end things. I recall Shelby saying that I bent reality when I talked in my calm voice....or something like that. Like I distorted things so subtly that it altered her view of things. Heather behaved in a way that indicated the same effect. We would be fine while I was with her, but communication via text or email always devolved into drama.
Might sound different if you say it to yourself. :D
You're strong and physically imposing, you're intelligent, you have spent your life talking people into believing you, and you have resources. That adds up to a formidable opponent.
Oh, and you're one of those Harley Biker terrorists. :haha:
If Spenser is that stoic I wonder what he knew in advance. <no question mark.
He was as shocked as everyone. He'd had 2.5 weeks to sort through it by the time i saw him again. She had small scars on her upper thigh from cutting when she was 14. Told me they were stretch marks. There were only 3 or 4, so I let it be. They looked old. I think she was 16 when I saw them. Figured she was aping some emo shit she saw.
Her college roommate said she'd been seeing the school therapist. None of us knew that.
My youngest niece went through a phase of cutting herself. Worries me - her sister wears her heart on her sleeve - but Soph is very contained. Don't know something is up until it's past tense and she's already dealt with it.
Give her that book. Today. Can only help her.
I think her mum has already given her a library of mindfulness books.
I do think she's okay, but I also know that doesn't mean very much.
[eta] one of her combined honours at uni is psychology and I think that's plugged her into some useful stuff.
I learned recently from Spencer, who had just found out, that Ripley had made one previous attempt 3 years ago. And that she had been taking anti depressants at that time. I don't know for how long or if she still was. I never saw it on the health insurance bills, her mother must have paid cash for the pills to keep it all secret.
I'm going to have to forgive her for that. She made that decision at that time with the info and brain that she had. Not understanding her policy of not communicating with me prevents me from understanding why she kept that from me. But then, she didn't tell Spencer either. He says she's feeling very guilty still.
I don't know if I could have done anything to help back then, but it would have been on my radar at least. Who knows. Finding out after, has opened the questions again. Both why she did this, and why her mother acts the way she does. Both unanswerable.
I just keep coming back to the fact that it isn't changeable, so being angry or guilty isn't useful going forward. I hope she can forgive herself. I really do. It's a lot to process for me, so she must be tormenting herself. I'm still a bit angry. But I'm also sympathetic to her situation.
Kind of a weird place to be in.
Since Ripley didn't tell you later either, I can easily imagine jinx went along with Ripley's wishers, regarding her privacy, so as not to alienate her daughter. That relationship may have been what enabled her to get your daughter into treatment. Ripley was at an age where other people's opinions of her may have been paramount and she didn't want to risk a mental health stigma changing her relationships. She might not have gone for; or, cooperated with treatment otherwise.
Your son wasn't old enough to be responsible for intervention. It probably wouldn't have been fair to dump that knowledge on him since he didn't stumble across anything that caused him to become suspicious. Knowing could have been an unnecessary impediment in his development and it wasn't likely to have changed the outcome since Ripley had learned how to conceal things by then. Radar doesn't work so well against stealth technology.
Sexobon said pretty much what I came here to say.
Once you're a teenager, you are afforded increasing amounts of privacy -as it should be- including not telling your parents about non-life-threatening things. BUT, if you need anything other than an office visit with your regular doc, all that is blown out of the water because it's all on the billing. Including contraception, mental health..... just the sort of things teenagers don't want their parents to ask them about -especially teenage girls with their dads. Beest was the most progressive and open dad there could be, but I know he was taken aback when he saw billing for teendaughter's contraception.
Yet more evidence of reform being needed in the healthcare insurance field.
There is NOTHING abnormal and most likely nothing malicious in this being kept from you. The only thing to come to terms with here is your daughter was no longer a little girl and when that happens, you no longer get to be party to everything. Neither does mom, but when parent is required, it's almost always easier for a girl to grit her teeth and talk to mom, regardless of which parent (if any) she is closer too, because chances are, mom was once in that situation too.
Yup. I don't know enough to understand the why.
Antidepressants are cheap, out of pocket is not a financial strain, and it only takes a visit to a GP to get them with at most an appointment to follow up in six months. Been there, done that.
yeah, Thunderboi's don't go through the insurance because it's cheaper to pay in full than their minimum copay, now I think about it.