Uber

Where in hell is all this money coming from. Billions every year coming in from Banks? Rich people? Pension funds? Drug cartels? A billion and a half shares, five time the US population? :bonk:

I don't believe I have ever seen a Uber or a Lyft.
A website (going on mileage alone, I would guess) told me it would cost between $35 and $135 to take me to the library, 15 miles away.
Findings released yesterday say these services have increased the traffic in SF by 40%.

You won't see it, it's just people in regular cars.

Findings released yesterday say these services have increased the traffic in SF by 40%

Here's the study, 2016 versus 2010. To be precise, they say Uber and Lyft accounted for the traffic, but they haven't increased the traffic. The economic recovery increased the number of trips people wanted to make, the ride services facilitated them.

It's like, I didn't drive J to the airport last time, she got an Uber. If not for Uber, the trip would have still happened, but the car used would have been mine.

What's more, your car would have then returned to your house with no useful rider, as opposed to the Uber which almost certainly picked up someone else from the airport as soon as J got out.

A ten mile Uber trip might cost $15. Of that, Uber might take $5 or $8. A typical cost of driving ten miles would be greater than what the Federal Government let's you deduct - $5.80. So how much did that driver make in that half hour? Probably less than minimum wage.

How many have no idea how great their expenses and how trivial their profit margin? But then most without a grasp of the arithmetic only see cash. Cash flow rich and income poor. A common problem among those as arithmetically challenged as casino gamblers and consumers of lottery tickets.

How many have no idea how great their expenses and how trivial their profit margin?

I'm gonna guess under 20%. Why would you figure you know better than they do? They're the ones doing it, and if they do it for six months they will know an awful lot more than you.

I'm pretty sure tw is imagining that Uber drivers are a bunch of housewives and college students driving under 10 hours a week for "extra income." Typical driver in my experience is a male immigrant ages 30-50 driving 40-80 hours per week for a combination of Uber and Lyft customers. At least 30% don't speak English well or at all, and the rate is much higher in big tourist cities like Orlando. Some Spanish, but mostly Middle Eastern dudes.

Nowadays most also me their card as I get out, encouraging me to call them directly when I'm ready to go back and they will charge me less (i.e. cut Uber's percentage out of the equation.)

The last two times I had a physical therapist coming to my house for a few weeks, he was an uber driver on weekends. Single, college grad, lives 30 miles south but comes to the city to drive for Uber. He said his income has been cut in half over the last 5 years because of the increase in drivers.

I like using Uber even though it’s never cheap and the driver doesn’t always understand my directions.

My first Uber ride was in Feb 2016 and I’ve been using it pretty regularly while in the US. Most of my trips are 5 miles or less and cost $7-10.

The longest trip was Tampa to Tallahassee during that storm in 2017. Irma. The fare was $236 and the mileage was 234. Duration was 7hr 15min.

All flights out of Florida were over $1500 if you could book one. Uber took me out of the path of the storm, caught a bus to Atlanta and everything was fine.

It’s not cheap but it’s been very useful.

Uber gives me options if the weather is not great for biking and when carrying things on the bike is not practical.

Getting a drop off at a congested store is a great option in areas where parking space combat is a regular occurrence. Some areas are more likely than others that parking space conflict escalates to the cops arriving, as you would expect. It’s a mixed bag. The details are not relevant when an event shows up on your police record. Uber takes that possibility completely out.

Parking and securing a car is a non issue. At the cheap rented dump where I stay or anywhere else. Push the button, a car arrives. Easy.

My interaction with law enforcement was consistent when I was driving because I’m always in a new place. With out of state plates, stickers, etc. Cops see this an opportunity to persuade you to convert all the registrations to their jurisdiction. I am a contract employee. There could be a much better paying job for me in another state tomorrow. Or the current contract could end without notice. That’s the world that I thrive in but changing over to your state, sir? Only to pay for it again with the next contract? Not going to happen. Sorry. Uber bypasses all this horse crap. My interaction with law enforcement is zero. Right where I like it. ;)

There are things that you can do to help your Uber driver too. The service is valuable to me so if there’s something I can do to make things smoother then I’ll probably do it. A tip helps as you might expect. Those brass colored dollar coins work great. Sacagawea coins. They aren’t commonly used and are a bit of a novelty to tip with.

This is my UBER rider identification light. Day or night it helps the driver find me to pick me up. It’s cheap and effective.

In the comment section for driver messages add “guy with the flashing red led bike light.” If the driver knows English, it’s easy.

Diaphone Jim;1032260 wrote:

I don't believe I have ever seen a Uber or a Lyft.

Undertoad;1032263 wrote:

You won't see it, it's just people in regular cars.

There were many Uber LED lights in Florida Not as helpful during the day but that seems to be the only symbol that is in that area of the windshield so still helpful ish.

Clodfobble;1032266 wrote:

What's more, your car would have then returned to your house with no useful rider, as opposed to the Uber which almost certainly picked up someone else from the airport as soon as J got out.

Someone told me that when a driver drops a passenger they need to get in queue at the airport. That might be long or short but you have to be managed as to who gets the next fare. Maybe to prevent a frenzy of drivers tearing after people coming out of the airport.

tw;1032268 wrote:

A ten mile Uber trip might cost $15. Of that, Uber might take $5 or $8. A typical cost of driving ten miles would be greater than what the Federal Government let's you deduct - $5.80. So how much did that driver make in that half hour? Probably less than minimum wage. .

In normal pricing, yes, a lot less. There are other drivers that do something else while waiting for a fare. This one driver was some type of life coach talking on the phone during the ride which is fine by me. Others are fiddling around with some kind of IPAD thing working on something else while they wait.

tw;1032268 wrote:

How many have no idea how great their expenses and how trivial their profit margin? But then most without a grasp of the arithmetic only see cash. Cash flow rich and income poor. A common problem among those as arithmetically challenged as casino gamblers and consumers of lottery tickets.

The much better paying rides are earned during local events. Drivers have reported ( but not under oath :eyebrow: ) making a few thousand bucks a weekend during events. It’s not every weekend that there’s a game of some type going on but when there is, there’s “surge” pricing. That might be 2-5 times the normal fare with very short gaps in between rides.

When surge pricing is in effect, the app notifies the rider. They have the option to accept or reject the ride with surge pricing. Sometimes waiting an hour makes a noticeable difference. Most of the time it doesn’t. It makes it even more expensive. Unless the fare with surge pricing is more than like $50, I just hit the accept knowing it’s not going to get cheaper.

There are some clues as to whether your Uber driver is making any money. When you accept the ride the details about that account are available including the number of rides and the year and model of the car. If the year of the car is the oldest eligible for Uber and the account has 13,000 rides, it’s a good guess that they are making money.

When that model year slips out of eligibility for Uber, they get one model year newer with the same account. Mileage and looks are not a big deal if you are in it for the money. Not a big deal to me as a rider either.

If your Uber driver is a young woman with a brand new car there’s a good chance the dealer probably fed her some horse crap about making the payments driving for Uber. If when hailing an Uber the rider had the choice to select the ride instead of the driver accepting the rider, a nice looking young woman might have some leverage in making more money.

If your driver shows up in an old shit box with a mis color matched replacement fender, probably making money.

If your driver shows up in an average car but he looks to be about 80, is wearing $5-10k in gold and expensive Revo sunglasses, it might not matter if he’s making money or not. A good number of those guys are very likable. Sure they’re doing it for the money, whatever that might be but also a chance to talk to someone new. Someone that remembers how to have a conversation without an electronic device.

You’ve heard of the single serving friend from Fight Club? Drivers get a lot of them.

There are some people out there that drive Uber solely for the single serving friends. It works both ways too. How long do you work at a job before you know everyone’s stories? They may be good or bad but you know what they are going to say before they say it. Mix it up, take an Uber.

Uber might also be a good lead/customer generator. How much does one pay for leads? How much does one pay for advertisement?

Uber could be both.

Undertoad;1032272 wrote:

I'm gonna guess under 20%. Why would you figure you know better than they do? They're the ones doing it, and if they do it for six months they will know an awful lot more than you.

They may know more about driving Uber than TW, but not until they get their first earnings statement. If a driver is new, less than 6 months experience they could not understand that they are losing money.

But that might not be a bad thing for them.

Clodfobble;1032274 wrote:

I'm pretty sure tw is imagining that Uber drivers are a bunch of housewives and college students driving under 10 hours a week for "extra income." Typical driver in my experience is a male immigrant ages 30-50 driving 40-80 hours per week for a combination of Uber and Lyft customers. At least 30% don't speak English well or at all, and the rate is much higher in big tourist cities like Orlando. Some Spanish, but mostly Middle Eastern dudes.

That sounds about right, say 50% English as a second language, just a few months in country. Those are the people that pick me up from 20 miles away at 3:40 am. Those people are awesome. They’re awkward and meek but they are doing what they have to in order to get their rating up. They’re always polite and more helpful than most other drivers.

The other 50% might be college students, retirees, housewives and people just looking to make extra money because they have no other options now days.

Uber is many different things to people.

Clodfobble;1032274 wrote:

Nowadays most also me their card as I get out, encouraging me to call them directly when I'm ready to go back and they will charge me less (i.e. cut Uber's percentage out of the equation.)

That might be a benefit of being Clodfobble. :) Sometimes I ask them but in following up they decline.

slang;1032288 wrote:

Someone told me that when a driver drops a passenger they need to get in queue at the airport. That might be long or short but you have to be managed as to who gets the next fare. Maybe to prevent a frenzy of drivers tearing after people coming out of the airport.

That's not right.

That's for the taxis?

The Ubers wait in a far away parking lot, then you have to find them. They can't find you. That surely came about in wrestling between the Ubers and taxis at the airport.

This is what the situation was like at the Atlanta airport. The nice people on the airport staff gave me directions to the Uber area but the signs directing you there did not have the word "Uber" in it.

There was a long walk involved. Took about 20 minutes for me to get there.

Traditionally we argue with tw not ourselves.

Undertoad;1032272 wrote:

They're the ones doing it, and if they do it for six months they will know an awful lot more than you.

Numbers ignored to make an emotional conclusion. Slang, on the othe rhand, posted logically. Surge pricing, for example, does make more money. And, ironically, surge pricing has made transportation much more available at those venues.

One can go for years with a large cash flow (believe they are making money) all while loosing money. Then many years later, expenses are incurred / realized. Another classic example of why finance numbers do not report reality until so many years later. So, as Slang noted, some do not care they are losing money.

Are they making money? Yes, if one can live and save at less than or around minimum wage. Why do professional taxis cost more? They are not burning their candles at both ends. They are charging based upon what it really costs to drive a mile. They know what the real profit margin is.

Many Uber drivers do not know how much each mile costs. And would not learn until many years later when expenses are finally incurred. Many Uber and Lyft drivers do not know how little money they are actually making. Since resulting costs only appear long later. As Slang notes, some do not care. Or it is the only job they currently can get.

Why do professional taxis cost more?

The biggest reason is licensing of taxi medallions. You can't drive a yellow cab in NYC if you don't have a few hundred thousand dollars for a medallion. It used to be over $1,000,000 for a single car, before Uber.

And then there's cost of sales, advertising, business insurance, liability, the real estate to warehouse all the cars, effects of regulation, cost of recruiting, hiring, and maintenance of personnel in a specific location, hiring people on a specific schedule where they may be idle, hiring managers as well as operators, having enough cars available for unpredictable conditions...

And are you aware of "surge pricing" where ride sharing can be more expensive than professional taxis, but professional taxis are nowhere to be found?

Thanks for bringing that up, UT. So I didn't have to.:D

NY hot dog stands are no better...





:2cents::

Ten years ago in my humble little town, an eight mile ride in a taxi was $17. And ya had to tip the guy. It's a small town, you're getting that same driver next time. No tip this time? What do you think the chances are he'll be on time next time?:eyebrow:

Undertoad;1032303 wrote:

The biggest reason is [I][B]licensing of taxi medallions.

Profession cab companies around here have no medallions and still cost more. They know what their costs are. To obfuscate the issue, you confuse NYC cabbies with others who have no medallions. These still cost more because they charge based on actual costs.

Once we include everything you have said correctly, then you really agree with everything I have said. Thank you.

Meanwhile, Uber drivers often make far less than they realize. $5 profit for a half hour fare is profitable? Yes. It explains so much dissension among Uber and Lyft drivers. Of course, the business model makes it almost impossible for them to Unionize. So is it really a business - or a hobby?

But in smaller markets where there are no medallions, the cost of sales is higher and concentration of business is lower leading to reverse economies of scale.

Another aspect of this is: which experience is better? They're not equivalent experiences.

tw wrote:

$5 profit for a half hour fare is profitable?

Assuming you pick up a second fare, that's a wage of $10 per hour. Are there costs hidden in the long-term car damage that a driver won't necessarily have to deal with until later? Sure. But the same applies to pizza delivery drivers, who make an average of $8.08 per hour.

Fun fact: there is also the opposite of "surge pricing," in which both Uber and Lyft pay bonuses for drivers who cover less popular areas and times of day, because it is in the company's best interest to provide 100% coverage even if the margins are sometimes slimmer. One driver told me she got twice the usual rate for picking me up in a suburb at 9:00 AM--which it turns out she also lives in. She just logs herself in every morning then goes back to sleep. If a ride request comes in, she puts on some pants and does the gig.

No one is getting rich being an Uber driver. But not every worker's desire is to get rich and climb the career ladder 1950s style.

Griff;1032291 wrote:

Traditionally we argue with tw not ourselves.

Sorry for breaking format. I knew it just didn't seem right. :D

No use of the word "texas" or references to any firearms in those posts. I'm in recovery.

Clodfobble;1032351 wrote:

No one is getting rich being an Uber driver.

That clearly was the point that UT ignored to argue. They see cash flow. Then mistakenly confuse that with income. Nobody can live on $8 an hour. Even in the 1960s, minimum wage was (in today's money) $12.

An Uber driver that gets $5 for a half hour almost never has a new fare one minute later. He is paid nothing to drive to his next fare. And again, the point. Uber drivers really do not know how little they are actually earning.

The Uber model would have been ideal for professional taxis. But those companies operate on razor thin margins. An Uber business model works when its drivers do not realize how little they are actually making.

I ignored they don't get rich? :lol:

Another aspect of this is: which experience is better? They're not equivalent experiences.

My very worst Uber ride so far is better than an average taxi ride. The average taxi rides are for shit*, and everybody knows this. Cab smells bad, driver smells bad, entertainment is some tiny asian nation's top 40, driving is erratic, communication impossible. On Uber, that doesn't last long; it's reviewed right out of the system.

I doubt tw has been in an Uber, don't you all? Tell us your ride-sharing experiences, tw. Tell us about the drivers you've spoken with. Actual experience goes a long way to understanding things... as opposed to making things up in your tiny little head after reading the news.




*except in Vegas.

Undertoad;1032378 wrote:

...My very worst Uber ride so far is better than an average taxi ride..

:thumb:

Cost of Uber is less. They care more about your ride experience.

On a tangent,

This morning Alexa told me the news about Amazon looking for more delivery drivers. They apparently want Amazon Prime to provide one day delivery service. Amazon is encouraging their employees to quit … and go into business for themselves as deliverers. Amazon will put up to $10,000 into a start-up and give three months separation pay to the employee. It sounded rather Uberish. I wonder if anyone will end up doing both Amazon and Uber.

... only to be replaced by self-driving delivery trucks? I wonder if their delivery contracts will be exclusive? The whole thing puts me in mind of what Purdue does to chicken farmers. I guess we're all share-croppers now? /poorly considered but you see where I'm going with this.

The car can drive to your house but it cannot yet pick up the package, carry it over uncertain terrain, put it on your doorstep and knock on the door. That will take an additional 10 years as machine learning will take that long to learn to interpret every doorstep.

I'm surprised the Amazon locker system hasn't been expanded more for deliveries, instead of just returns. They're constantly offering me things like a $5 credit on Amazon Pantry (which I don't want) if I'll delay delivery by a few days, but never have they offered me $1 off or whatever if I'll go get my package at the closest locker (about 8 blocks from my house, and right on my route in and out of the neighborhood) which I would totally do.

They ordered 2o,000 Mercedes Sprinter vans without self driving or alt fuel.

tw;1032268 wrote:

A ten mile Uber trip might cost $15. Of that, Uber might take $5 or $8. A typical cost of driving ten miles would be greater than what the Federal Government let's you deduct - $5.80. So how much did that driver make in that half hour? Probably less than minimum wage.

I just found out what almost all rideshare drivers already understand:

The driver deducts that $5.80!!

The car is being used for business purposes!!

NOW how much did the driver make?

A tax deduction doesn't do much in a low tax bracket.

Who says they are in a low bracket?

AND gets a deduction on the car payment

AND the car insurance

AND the mobile phone AND its wireless plan

NOW how much did the driver make?

On the other hand, his insurance will be higher if he admits he's driving for commercial purposes...

Did you read about all the drivers for both Uber and Lyft in the waiting lot at the airport turning off their phones at the same time for 2 minutes as a plane arrives? It drives the price of their next ride up as much as $19 over a standard fare.

Undertoad;1033375 wrote:

Who says they are in a low bracket?

I'll say it. Who would say otherwise? I'm sure there are outliers, but most won't go past the 12% bracket. And you only benefit from tax deductions by the amount they exceed the standard deduction of $12000-$24000.


So take the total business deductions listed above, subtract $12,000, multiply by 0.12, and divide by the number of hours worked, and that's how much the deductions affected the wage.

It's $38k to make middle class bracket. Indeed's yearly says $33,268 per year.

But the Indeed numbers are off. Below the yearly figure, where it says "Salaries are also available in..." click on "daily". Indeed reports $207 per day. There are 261 working days in the 2019 year. That translates to $54,027 if you work every working day.

The monthly figure translates to $45k, the hourly figure translates to 36k, the weekly figure translates to 26k. I suppose people answer Indeed's survey and are given the choice of which way to report their income. That would mean the yearly includes people who worked less than 40 hours for 261 days... and people who worked more.

Nevertheless it would put about 30-40% of people's income just from Uber into the middle bracket. But my SWAG guess based on the drivers I've met is that half of them have income from other sources/jobs. People have all kinds of motivations to do this thing.

So I'ma SWAG about half of Uber drivers are middle bracket or above.

Undertoad;1033399 wrote:

But the Indeed numbers are off. Below the yearly figure, where it says "Salaries are also available in..." click on "daily". Indeed reports $207 per day. There are 261 working days in the 2019 year. That translates to $54,027 if you work every working day.

Not if you work every day; if you make $207 every day. That's why I went with "yearly", to get the least jumpy number.


But in any case, even for those who do make it to the 22% bracket, it just replaces the 0.12 with .22. And probably the $12,000 with $24,000, but you still might have trouble getting to $12,000 unless you've got a pretty expensive car.