Why do White House support Taiwan joining the WHO
I heard from China CCTV news report. I don't know if Taiwan would join WHO. We hope to have a good relation with the US and support China to draw TW back. Don't let TW make troubles to two sides.
Originally posted by Billy
I heard from China CCTV news report. I don't know if Taiwan would join WHO. We hope to have a good relation with the US and support China to draw TW back. Don't let TW make troubles to two sides.
This Tiawan question is a charade - false pretense - fictional game. It is how the Chinese and Americans get around a fact they will never agree on while pretending to be in agreement. But the pragmatic reality is that mainland China and Tiawan are two separate countries and will remain so until and unless both countries agree to a reunion.
When mainland missiles threatened Tiawan, the US Seventh Fleet steamed through the straits to say bluntly - Tiawan is an independent country. That remains reality reagardless of what silly politicians claim.
Whether Tiawan becomes part of the WHO is a silly question for politicians. If Tiawan, not functioning as part of the WHO, is a threat to the health and safety of world people, then screw, impeach, or assissinate all politicians. When government officials do not work for the people, then they must be disposed of, with aggression if necessary. (A principle of the US and VietNam Declarations of Independence).
Sooner or later this nonsense idea of two countries / one nation will need to be eliminated. But that is a concept only for politician who cannot yet deal with realities. Whether Tiawan is or is not participating in the WHO is irrelevant to silly, pathetic politicans who have a funny habit of creating wars over nothing.
BTW, we saw some silly politicans try to do just that recently. In another crisis - a silly spy plane incident - some silly and anti-American politicans in the White House threatened war with mainland China over that silly plane. Yes, some government officials (in both countries) are so anti-world and anti-humanity as to advocate war over almost anything. Thank goodness for real Americans and real Chinese. Collin Powell finally put a stop to all that rhetoric from right wing extremist war mongers. But again, what we had are silly politicans trying to promote war because they are more interested in their silly politics than in world realities - pragmatism.
Honest people say it does not matter that Tiawan participates in the WHO. The WHO is about the health and well-being of the world. Honest people also say that that silly spy plane incident shows how anti-humanity some extremists in both the US and China can be. Don't worry about Tiawan. If it is in the interest of both China and Tiawan to be one country, then it will happen - when silly politicians stop playing mind games.
Well, if Taiwan can have an olympic team, I don't see why they shouldn't be part of the WHO.
(Personally, I think Taiwan should be treated as Hong Kong and Macau, though I don't see the Taiwanese agreeing with that.)
Are you stalking tw again? :cool:
The British gave you Hong Kong back, in the last major international crime of (last) century. Forget about Taiwan.
I've got news for you tw. If China ever wanted to take Taiwan back by force, America WOULDN'T DARE get involved militarily. There's not a chance in the world.
Billy, Taiwan is a separate country. You don't need it. If Taiwan disappeared from the face of the earth, it wouldn't make a bit of difference to China. The only reason Mao wanted Taiwan is because they were getting wealthy and living well when China was starving under communism. It made him look bad. Now China has moved toward socialism and developed a trade policy that will increase wealth and the standard of living for its' people. If China keeps that direction and opens up opportunities for more individual freedom then there's a possibility that it would become attractive to Taiwan to rejoin China. If you want them back then make it worth their while.
Taiwan has been part of China for 7,000 years. I don't know what makes you think it's a different country. It would be like saying the Island of Manhattan is no longer part of America, but worse. What do you think Ameirca would do if Manhattan said they didn't want to be part of America and China said they'd send their military here to defend it?
Taiwan has always been and will always be part of China and America won't do anything about it if China decides to spank thier child for disobeying.
And you call Bush a warmonger. Tsk, tsk:rolleyes:
He is a war monger and I am not. I am not in favor of STARTING any wars; especially unprovoked and unconstitutional wars of imperialistic terrorist aggression like Bush did.
As long as Taiwan doesn't try to break away from China and declare independence I don't anticipate a war. But if a war did happen, I can guarantee America would not take part in it. I think Taiwan should be able to declare their independence as America did from our tyrranical imperialist oppressors, however this is none of America's business and China like Iraq doesn't answer to America but unlike Iraq, China is strong enough so even a war monger like Bush wouldn't be stupid enough to start shit with them. Although I may be underestimating Bush's stupidity.
Taiwan hasn't been part of China for 50 years.:p
Sure they have. They've never stopped being part of China.
If they're a part of China, then what the hell is everyone so upset about?
People are upset because Taiwan doesn't want to be part of China anymore but they don't have the strength to break away. America cares because the vast majority of our computer chips and other electronics are made there and we like the idea of having an ally so close to China.
Unfortunately for Taiwan China won't allow them to break away and America can't do anything about it. If America were to give them missles or other weapons, China would immediately attack and America doesn't want any part of that.
But if they already have their own separate government, then what's the definition of "breaking away"?
The state of California has a separate government but they are part of America. California isn't recognized as separate from America though. The same is true about Guam, Puerto Rico, etc. Taiwan is part of China and they haven't declared independence from China. If they do, they're dead meat. Mexico fought for their independence from Spain, America fought for our independence from England, etc. Taiwan has never declared or fought for their independence. Until they do, they are part of China.
It seems like a case of "Where reality collides with rhetoric" to me.
Taiwan SHOULD be able to declare themselves independent, but the REALITY of the situation is they can't or they'll be destroyed.
Juju, Taiwan has considered itself the "true" China since the Nationalists fled the mainland in 1949 (the official name of Taiwan is the Republic of China). Most of the world went along with this until the late 60s/early 70s (you may recall Nixon's big trip over there). The US position these days seems to be "let them work it out themselves."
The US position these days seems to be "let them work it out themselves."
This should be the U.S. position in all foreign conflicts, but in this case it
MUST be that way because we have no choice in the matter. If we get involved we can't handle the shit storm that will result.
Originally posted by russotto
Forget about Taiwan.
Most Taiwanese want to come back China mainland one day. They think the US can not give them a safe life, only their home town, mother, China. We are the same families.
Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
Taiwan hasn't been part of China for 50 years.
Just in 1990s a few people wanted go out China. GuoMin party still think TW is one part of China. They hope to recover China mainland again. Most of Chinese think TW is one part of China.
Originally posted by juju
If they're a part of China, then what the hell is everyone so upset about?
Now more and more Taiwanese come back Chian mainland to seek jobs. They live here ,work here,love here, think China is their real home. I hear few people who work in mainland think it is bad here. They earn much money and have a better life. Why it is hell??
I think what juju was saying, (and I certainly don't agree with him), is that the Communist party are devils and therefore China is like Hell. But I could be misinterpreting it as well.
They think the US can not give them a safe life,
Safe from what? The only one threatening them has been Red China.
Most of Chinese think TW is one part of China.
Most Chinese think Tibet is part of China except the native people.
more Taiwanese come back Chian mainland to seek jobs.
That's exactly what I suggested. If you want Taiwan to come back into the fold, make it worth their while. Instead of threatening to subdue them, make China a place they want to be.
Nobody wants to go "home" if mother is an axe murderer.;)
Originally posted by Billy
Why it is hell??
It's just an expression. :)
Originally posted by Billy
Why it is hell??
It's hell because the government tells every single person how to live every aspect of their lives. It's hell because the Chinese people don't know the meaning of the word Freedom. It's hell because Communism is pure evil. It's hell because the people of China have horrible living conditions, substandard healthcare, oppressive and evil government that violates the civil rights of everyone and asks the citizens to spy on each other and report their friends, neighbors, and relatives when they speak out against it, and for a host of other reasons.
Billy, he didn't say China is hell or it is hell is China. He said
then what the hell is everyone so upset about?
"what the hell" is just an expression than adds emphasis to his question.
Dave was being a wiseguy, I think?
And Radar, well he makes his position pretty clear. :eek:
These days the White House support Tibet to deviate from P.R. China. Tibet is one part of China. Whole the country help Tibet deleopment. I think the relation between China and the USA like neighbor.
China is one having big park, poor, peaceful, quiet family. The USA is one powerful, strong, rich, greedy family. The US family hope China family in confusion so they can snatch our fortune, beautiful girls, domain. They export capitalism to China. The Chinese just hope to have a peaceful and quiet life, not war and confusion. No one can save us, only ourselves. We should protect ourselves, not invade and occupy other family.
America started when it fought England for independence. The people of America are not like other countries because they come from everywhere else in the world. There are Americans from China, Africa, India, every European country. Even if someone comes from another country, if they are American citizens we say they are American.
We do not snatch the fortune of other countries. We found out how to become rich and we are happy to give the secrets to everyone who asks. We gave the secrets to South Korea and they are becoming rich too. We do not want their land or their women. We want them to be happy trade partners so we can become rich together.
Because we became America when we fought to separate from England, we like to help small countries if they want to be independent. The American culture wants to protect the victims.
Originally posted by Billy
Most Taiwanese want to come back China mainland one day. They think the US can not give them a safe life, only their home town, mother, China. We are the same families.
Even if so, China is an abusive mother and it's a dysfunctional family.
BTW, I'm guessing most Taiwanese today were born in Taiwan, so there is no "coming back".
Last time I looked, Taiwan considered mainland China as part of Taiwan. China simply a (larger) renegade part of the country. More silly political rhetoric. They are separate countries and will remain so until both countries agree otherwise - from one who never had much tolerance for compromises that don't solve problems.
China does know one fact that has been expressed by every previous president. If China attacks Taiwan, they will find themselves in direct conflict with the US. That has been stated specifically - sometimes by openly, publically, and agressively parading US aircraft carrier task forces in the Formosa Straits.
Don't be silly, TW.
RADAR said that can't happen.:rolleyes:
Originally posted by Billy
The US family hope China family in confusion so they can snatch our fortune, beautiful girls, domain.
Nah, we don't want your girls. We prefer to get those from Vietnam, the Philippines, and Eastern Europe.
We do want your babies though. We have plenty of children for adoption here, but nobody really wants a black baby or an older child. A yellow baby is considered a good compromise for some white folks.
Now there's a language/cultural reference Billy won't appreciate: "yellow" babies.
I'm not sure I understand it myself.
I was going to note that it was crude Sycamore-American humor, but that would have taken away from the original post. So, I'll say it here.
Billy, my comments were rather cynical and sarcastic. Though they were somewhat true, I tend to have a bizarre sense of humor, so my apologies in advance.
(He did seem to get the bra remark though.)
Some people like Chinese. I like you, not see one people as his skin color.
China does know one fact that has been expressed by every previous president. If China attacks Taiwan, they will find themselves in direct conflict with the US. That has been stated specifically - sometimes by openly, publically, and agressively parading US aircraft carrier task forces in the Formosa Straits
That is absolutely false. America will not take part in any conflict between Taiwan and China. Our government has already stated this and the reason America won't do it is because we know it would be something we couldn't handle. The last thing in the world America wants to do is have more than a billion Chinese people fighting us.
China is the only country left that can keep America's imperialistic military intervention in check. Russia comes close too. I can absolutely guarantee without any doubt what-so-ever that if China and Taiwan got into a military conflict, America WOULD NOT take part in it at all. Not even as part of a U.N. force.
Only very foolish people have no doubt.
America WOULD NOT take part in it at all.
See, I told you so.:p
Only very foolish people have no doubt.
No, only those who aren't sure because they've been wrong so many times in the past. I have no doubt because I know it to be true for a fact. I know 2+2=4 and I have no doubt about it. I know America wouldn't take part with no less certainty.
Then you, sir, are an idiot.
Billy, an interesting note about the crux of this thread, from the US Department of State:
Maintaining diplomatic relations with the P.R.C. has been recognized to be in the long-term interest of the United States by six consecutive administrations; however, maintaining strong, unofficial relations with Taiwan also is in the U.S. interest. The United States is committed to these efforts because they are important for America's global position and for peace and stability in Asia. In keeping with its one-China policy, the U.S. does not support Taiwan independence. The U.S. supports Taiwan's membership in appropriate international organizations, such as the WTO, APEC forum, and the Asian Development Bank, where statehood is not a requirement for membership. In addition, the U.S. supports appropriate opportunities for Taiwan's voice to be heard in organizations where its membership is not possible.
Then you, sir, are an idiot.
Take a look in the mirror juju. And when you're done read what sycamore just posted. And pay particularly close attention to the part that says...
In keeping with its one-China policy, the U.S. does not support Taiwan independence.
The USA is certainly not above the rhetoric.
But alas, rhetoric is not reality.:)
The China government announced that we use peaceful way to resolve this problem. We would attack Taiwan if the US, Japan or other countryarm inrade Taiwan. We hope the twoside people communicate and stregthen cooperate.
Originally posted by Billy
The China government announced that we use peaceful way to resolve this problem. We would attack Taiwan if the US, Japan or other countryarm inrade Taiwan. We hope the twoside people communicate and stregthen cooperate.
Well, you certainly don't have to worry about Japan. They were neutered after World War II.
If China wanted Taiwan back bad enough, they could have already taken it by now. This has been going on for over 50 years now. Of course, most of Taiwan's weapons were bought from the US.
About one month ago one Japan student who study in China say diry on China. He said in one radio that the Japan is one small country and China is large. Japanese should kill all the Chinese to have more resource. He thought they would invaded China again soon. Whole of China become angray at this.
Do you think we still let Japanese kill us?
Whole of China become angray at this.
And they have every right to be. Just don't forget, you're talking about one asshole running his mouth and not the people or country of Japan.
Do you think we still let Japanese kill us?
I think if Japan attacked China nobody would ever have to worry about the Japanese again. Ever!:eek:
We still worry about Japan. Some Japanese still like war.
Some Japanese still like war.
Well, I like young girls too, but that ain't going to happen either.
I can understand your distrust of the Japanese given their past history but I don't think they're stupid enough to attack China today.
Originally posted by Billy
We still worry about Japan. Some Japanese still like war.
Rather silly to worry about Japan. Their military abilities are dominately defensive. Japan has no offensive military capacity.
However I would more worry about N Korea. Reasons for war include fear. North Korean military leadership fears invasion. They fear the world. They even fear letting their own people emmigrate.
I would worry about mainland China having attempted an invasion of VietNam, Kashmir, and Tibet. Having claimed that almost the entire South China sea up to the beaches of Viet Nam, Malaysia, and Philippines belongs to China. Having already fought a military battle on the Spratley Islands for possession of those islands located closest to Phillippines.
I would worry about the US under its current leadership that would advocate the invasion and occupation of another nation using lies about 'weapons of mass destruction' (WMD). Even US Assistant Secratary of Defense Wolfovich acknowledged today those WMD did not exist (lies that are now causing serious political problems for Tony Blair in UK). I would worry about a nation that has turned so militaristic in the past three years that its college kids openly advocate military actions as a solution to any world problem - a severe change from a pre-2001 USA. A nation that last was so militaristic when it unilaterally attacked N Viet Nam for same mythical reasons.
I would worry more about India and Pakistan whose governments are now dominated by the most conservative and militaristic leaders in generations AND who were but days from a nuclear exchange. Two countries that have so little fear of nuclear war as to openly advocate such an engagment with millions of troops already in the field of battle.
Where does Japan come any where near to being as dangerous as these other openly aggressive war powers? With so many antagonists, no wonder Japan must maintain such a strong defensive military. Japan is a far from being a threat to China is one has any post World War II historical knowledge AND knowledge of who has what weapons. To worry about Japan is to worry without first learning basic facts.
Don't undersetimate the Japanese. They may not have an offense now, but I bet it wouldn't take them long to put one together if we let them. Remeber, that little country has kicked China's ass in the past. The Japanese don't do anything half-way.
When Japan invaded China last, it wasn't a country but loosely confederated groups. Now China is a nation of significant strength. The army and leadership are truly national and coordinated. Japans attack on China was a sneak attack as were their attacks on Korea, Russia and of course the USA. I don't see how they could possibly think they could be successful. ;)
Billy, I can understand why the Chinese are wary of the Japanese, given that they had a field day in Korea and China in the first half of the 20th century.
But surely you would not disagree with me on this: The Japanese have been a non-threat for over 50 years. They would have to alter their constitution (specifically
Article 9) in order to go into serious attack mode.
Sure, some in Japan might like war. So do some in the US. And China. I would imagine there are quite a few people in your country that would like nothing more than to crush Taiwan like a bug. For that matter, I imagine many Chinese wanted Hong Kong and Macau back before 1997.
In the end, if a country really wants something, they'll go for it. And you'll probably see it building up before it happens. I'd say you're safe for now.
Like German, they say sorry to the world, but the Japanese Gorvernment still visit their war leaders. The action make the asian people feel sad. We cna forgive them but they don't say say sorry to us. Many Japanese still ignore the Second World War in their history. I don't hate Japanese, only to hate the war-lovers and bad Japan government.
I think that the S and N Korea would become one in the future. i don't know why the NK save so many weapon rather than bulid their economy. We still have a good relations with them. I think they are not a big problem for China, but we must resolve it ASAP. They hope to get many free money from the US.
i don't know why the NK save so many weapon rather than bulid their economy.
They are in the grip of bad people who are more worried about remaining in control than the starvation of their people.:(
Originally posted by Billy
i don't know why the NK save so many weapon rather than bulid their economy.
NK is not saving weapons. They are an exporter of weapons. Something like 25% of their international income is from weapons exports. How to wean a nation off of weapons when that is but the few successful industry they have?
It will be difficult. But weaning them off of weapons exporting is what Carter started when he negotiated an agreement that led to South Korea's Sunshine policy.
Need a missile? If US and Britian will not sell them AND will deny anyone else an opportunity to make the sale? Then go to North Korea. They make good missiles and will sell to anyone.
Goes even farther. To be a world exporter of better weapons, North Korea and Pakistan executed a secret agreement of technology trade. If the US was more honest, then Pakistan would also be on George Jr's list called the 'Axis of Evil' - that includes Iran and Iraq.
North Korea is a major weapons manufacturer. Therefore is evil. Pakistan did even worse. Took the world to brink of nuclear war and shared nuclear weapons technology with N Korea. So why is North Korea considered so dangerous but Pakistan is a close US friend? Ironic.
The USA is still the large weapon manufacturer. Your weapon manufacturers use high advanced teachnology. Then that make the world more dangerous. The world would come better if we all don't make so many weapon. I like the USA action movies with weapon, but I fear the real weapon. I have no safety sense when I see them.
Your weapon manufacturers use high advanced teachnology.
High tech is better then the old weapons. Now we can take out the bad guy sitting next to you leaving you unharmed.:D
Originally posted by Billy
The USA is still the large weapon manufacturer. Your weapon manufacturers use high advanced teachnology. Then that make the world more dangerous. The world would come better if we all don't make so many weapon.
France, Russia, Britian and US all export far more weapons than N Korea. But that misses the point. N Korea will literally export to anyone, anytime, anywhere because their economy is dependent too much on weapons sales. Those other listed nations can refuse to sell weapons based upon other considerations such as world stability.
For example, the US does not sell it most advanced weapons to Tiawan. Tiawan does not need long range stategic bombers. Even if Tiawan asks for a B-2 bomber, the US would not make that most profitable sale - because the US can operate more in the world's interests.
The US, France, Britian, etc consider more than just the sale. How that sale affects the entire world can also be considered. But N Korea must make the sale. Weapons sales are essential to an economy that has few other exportable products.
N Korea needs exportable products. But if the government is dominated by military types, then what hope do other industries have in N Korea? Little.
Long term peaceful solution is to wean N Korea off of weapons sales and into other necessary industries - be it mineral production, food production, shipbuilding, or what ever. But a nation that is mostly a weapons exporter will have great difficulty being a cooperative and peaceful member of a world community.
A military that controls most international exports has too much reason to encourage war. A country whose most powerful industries are not military is more interested in being a productive member of the world. That is N Korea's problem. Currently the wrong type of people have too much power - in part because the country is too dependent on weapons sales.
I think the N Korea would be the next Iraq if the USA would deal with this problem. It is not lucky for China and Russa. We don't hope that the USA round us and control all our neighbouring counties. Or we would have more pressure to protect our island.
Originally posted by Billy
I think the N Korea would be the next Iraq if the USA would deal with this problem. It is not lucky for China and Russa. We don't hope that the USA round us and control all our neighbouring counties. Or we would have more pressure to protect our island.
To understand this current American government, read everything about the 40 charter members of the "Project for a New American Century". A group that decided we must attack Iraq before even George Jr was elected president. A groups that decided they wanted to recruit George Jr for US president. They advocate an international policy well beyond and different from what any previous American government advocates. This same mentality is also why the US government was talking about military action against China over the silly spy plane incident.
What American government advocates in foreign policy is not consistent with what most Americans advocated. However opinion has sharply changed among younger people since the WTC disaster. Younger public who have no idea about VietNam.
They have become a caldron for "military solutions". This is dangerous for other nations such as N Korea, Iran, Syria, France, Turkey, Pakistan, India, Malaysia, Indonesia, Philllippines, Nato, Russia, and even China. This administration has no qualms about attacking today and then asking if we were threatened tomorrow. But since George Jr will be up for relection in just over 1 year, the US military will be silent until after that election.
To understand the problem, the current administration had no knowledge of weapons of mass destuction (WMD) in Iraq. Today's Department of Defense documents make it even more obvious that this right wing, hawkish (militaristic) administration uses political rhetoric rather than international facts to justify its actions. This government is out to fix the world - whether the world wants to be fixed or not.
No American ally, with spies in Iraq, could report WMD in Iraq. We now know that even the Asst Secretary of Defense admits no such information existed. Today's Defense Department documents shows how little to zero information existed on any WMD. But younger Americans are now hyped in military fever. War will now solve any problem - an Ameircan public opinion not seen since 1960s and VietNam.
To understand where all this comes from, read about the 40 right wing extremists who founded the Project for a New American Century. That is where one will understand why American foreign relations have changed so sharply militaristic in but a few years.
N Korea has much to worry about.
Billy, never forget what you read here is opinions. Opinions of the person writing that may or may not be true.;)
tw, I recall you predicting war with China, in the mid-90s or so?
I don't all believe what you say, but I would think it over. What you say has your reasons. You only get one apple if you exchange it with other one; you would get two thoughts if you exchange it with other.
Originally posted by tw
To understand the problem, [color=red]the current administration had no knowledge of weapons of mass destuction (WMD) in Iraq.[/color] Today's Department of Defense documents make it even more obvious that this right wing, hawkish (militaristic) administration uses political rhetoric rather than international facts to justify its actions. This government is out to fix the world - whether the world wants to be fixed or not.
Has anyone said the magic word yet? The word for the day is [color=red]impeachment[/color]. If, by some fluke, the Dems were to gain control of Congress, it would be payback time.
Would that include the Dems who sat on the intelligence committee and voted for military action?
The Dems are completely capable of playing both sides of the fence. Both sides can play the secret evidence game.
Valid or not, I'd like to see Congress assert itself against the imperial presidencey. I also enjoy watching the parties discredit each other. Impeachments are always about power politics, not truth seeking, but if the truth came out as a by-product it'd be to the good.
Oh Griff, you just want to see a cat fight.:D
Originally posted by Undertoad
tw, I recall you predicting war with China, in the mid-90s or so?
A prediction of war is misrepresented. A serious potential confrontation among others over ownership of the Spratley Islands was posted; including a small, largely unreported, battle. Since then, interest in unproven oil reserves has become an irrelevant event. Since then, China has taken a more serious interest in oil of the Central Asian 'stans.
I made no prediction of war. Furthermore, a potential for war was with other regional countries; not the US.
Spratley Islands were posted as an example of myopic American news reporting where even that Sprately Island confrontation was not reported. No prediction - even implied - was made of a 1990s war between China and the US. Demonstrated was a myopia in US news reports.
Originally posted by Griff
Has anyone said the magic word yet? The word for the day is impeachment.
First Democrats must have a political agenda. That missing Democratic strategic objective contributes to loss of Democratic Congressional power.
There is no doubt that right wing Republican power brokers had a specific agenda - which included the silly, continuous investigations of Clinton. Sam Dash, assistant to Ken Starr, demonstrated the problem when he reviewed every case against Clinton from Whitewater on; recommending that every investigation be dropped for lack of any credible evidence. Investigations of Clinton were part of that political agenda.
Of course all that nonsense against Clinton was dropped after Clinton was no longer president. Clinton investigations were no longer required by right wing Republican party agenda.
To impeach George Jr, the Democrats must first define a specific political agenda. Democrats and moderate Republicans have been more interested in the nation's business and self serving legislation than to exercise a political agenda. No outright coveting of power (except by right wing Republicans) makes a George Jr impeachment all but impossible.
We have known this all along. There was no smoking gun. No reasons to justify an attack on Iraq. There was not then. And even worse, there was no evidence to even imply a smoking gun existed. This was even exposed by Sen Graham (FL) when he forced the CIA director to admit same - in weeks before Geroge Jr's UN speech last year and before the Iraq attack. Today we know the CIA direction was telling the truth. Even the CIA director conceded there was no solid evidence for WMD in Iraq. But we attacked anyway.
Two separate reasons why an attack on Iraq was unprovoked. No smoking gun - which every patriotic American demands before conceeding to war. And no evidence that those WMD even existed. So many reasons why the Iraq attack was not justified that one MUST understand the agenda of "Project for The New American Century". That agenda defines America's new opinion of all other nations. An agenda that even encouraged all those silly Clinton investigations. An agenda must also exist in the Democratic party before any George Jr impeachment is suggested. Democrats have no such agenda.
The American people currently feel that we can attack anyone we 'feel' may be a threat - an agenda promoted by the "Project for The New American Century" that should disturb Billy and his countryman. Democrats have no equivalent agenda which is why a George Jr impeachment is impossible.
No reasons to justify an attack on Iraq.
None? Your getting pretty far out there.
Kagan in today's Washington Post:
Finally, there's former president Bill Clinton. In a February 1998 speech, Clinton described Iraq's "offensive biological warfare capability, notably 5,000 gallons of botulinum, which causes botulism; 2,000 gallons of anthrax; 25 biological-filled Scud warheads; and 157 aerial bombs." Clinton accurately reported the view of U.N. weapons inspectors "that Iraq still has stockpiles of chemical and biological munitions, a small force of Scud-type missiles, and the capacity to restart quickly its production program and build many, many more weapons." That was as unequivocal and unqualified a statement as any made by George W. Bush.
Clinton went on to insist, in words now poignant, that the world had to address the "kind of threat Iraq poses . . . a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction, ready to use them or provide them to terrorists . . . who travel the world among us unnoticed."
Oh well, impeachment was a lovely fantasy while it lasted. Strange, though, how it's an anti-right-wing fantasy here in the US, while in the UK it's an anti-left-wing fantasy.
Meanwhile, paraphrasing Christopher Hitchens on Hardball tonight: "If there truly are no WMDs then it would appear that Hussein is, by whatever process, disarmed... which he wasn't in 1998... and some people seem to be unhappy about that fact."
Originally posted by Undertoad
Oh well, impeachment was a lovely fantasy while it lasted. Strange, though, how it's an anti-right-wing fantasy here in the US, while in the UK it's an anti-left-wing fantasy.
Meanwhile, paraphrasing Christopher Hitchens on Hardball tonight: "If there truly are no WMDs then it would appear that Hussein is, by whatever process, disarmed... which he wasn't in 1998... and some people seem to be unhappy about that fact."
Chris intentionally misses the whole point. If Hussein had the weapons, where are they now? Did Bush's war just make the world a lot more dangerous? We reportedly had one nut controlling WMDs. If he had significant quantities, I would suggest that the materials are now in unknown hands. Nice job George a regional problem just went global.
My impeachment fantasy is this- If an administration comes into power with plans to use the lives of American servicemen and the treasure of the American people to satisfy their own empire building madness, the knowlege that Congress has the stones to impeach could be an effective deterent. It is not enough that we change tyrants every 4 or 8 years, the office must be reduced. I had high hopes when the Reps were whoopin up on Clinton but they attacked the man not the office. Unfortunately, Bush hasn't had an effective opposition either. That flag is practically painted on and the Democrats, loving the power that they have given the Executive, are afraid to apply the necessary solvent.
Kagan makes an interesting point but lets not pretend that he has no stake in this arguement, since he is a major player in
The Project for the New American Century.
Originally posted by tw
First Democrats must have a political agenda.
It wouldn't be popular so I don't expect it, but the Dems could stand for a reasonable foreign policy.
Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
...you just want to see a cat fight.
Guilty as charged. :)
Kagan's point isn't changed one bit by any memberships.
WMD shipped to more dangerous hands: if this is an allowable speculation POST-war, then it's an allowable speculation PRE-war, and the war makes the world safer by preventing more and larger WMD from being produced and ending up in those hands. Also, more dangerous than... Hussein? He does remain one of the few guys who ever used these weapons on his enemies.
Originally posted by Undertoad
Kagan's point isn't changed one bit by any memberships.
WMD shipped to more dangerous hands: if this is an allowable speculation POST-war, then it's an allowable speculation PRE-war, and the war makes the world safer by preventing more and larger WMD from being produced and ending up in those hands. Also, more dangerous than... Hussein? He does remain one of the few guys who ever used these weapons on his enemies.
Point taken on the amount of WMD in existence.
There are two key differences.
Before the war, Hussein had his little sandbox which folks against the war maintain would have been endangered by working with Islamic extremists thought to be his natural enemies. Ending sanctions and moving on could have frozen the situation in place. When it became obvious that he would no longer have that sandbox, I assume revenge became his primary urge. If we knew he had WMD, why would we wage a war whose most logical outcome would be to distribute whatever stocks are in existence?
My house of cards is "not being used to for the purposes of evil" the administrations most definitely was. Mine is being used to make an arguement. Bush used his to make a war that somehow a goodly number of Americans have connected to 911. They won, they got the war they somehow forgot to mention in all the talk about humble foreign policy during the election cycle and now everyone else gets to pay for it.
[sarcasm]
Everybody and his mother have used WMD, Hussein isn't even the
first in Iraq. WW1 which made the world safe for democracy had more than a few chemical exchanges. WW2 which protected the Poles and Chechs from tyranny ended with a pair of WMD bangs as well.[/sarcasm]
I am now pulling the nails from my soapbox and stacking the wood in my kindling pile, since further speculation on my part is really pointless at least until the next preemptive invasion. My big complaint with the whole mess is the assumption that the world needs a new style empire and it is being brought about by the advocates of limited government.
I would suggest that the materials are now in unknown hands.
This does bother me. Why wasn't a bigger effort made to stop the export of these things.
Also why wasn't the Pakistani border sealed when we invaded Afganistan?:confused:
Billy,
this bothers us in the west very much.:(
XOXO. I have never heard that. I don't think so. There must be other reasons, not that. We support public clubs.
Originally posted by Billy
I have never heard that. I don't think so. There must be other reasons, not that. We support public clubs.
Intolerance in government is universal. Created by what I call "living too long in the ethersphere". Clearly there is no danger from clubs using names such a German, French, etc. But then some in power will fear. Clearly the only threat to studying "the China Fishing Association" comes from learning how that organization openly lied about how much fish were being taken from the oceans - contributing to a collapsing stock of ocean fish. Government would fear people learn about a fishing association because people would then uncover fraud.
Same fear of change is found in the US as noted in a previous recent discussion. Some US government leaders so fear that laws even make some sex illegal between consenting, married, adults in the confines of their private abode. How silly those government leaders. Never doubt that government so fears new ideas as to even make safe materials illegal; even mandating jail sentences equivalent to those for murder only because government leaders fear change. They do this due to ignorance and fear of change.
The China Fishing Association is a hobby freshwater fishing group.
Billy, have you heard about
this? :(
I don't know it.I will check it for you later.