My message

Why do you, cellar, have deleted my message about Iraq war? I think it was a respectful message.

Is here some type of censorship?

It was, but the registration message warns against posting something with a link in your first post because we have been overwhelmed with spam.

Well, unfortunately this is the war, the war that U.S. and U.K. government, with the Spanish President's support, have promoted, so I think there is a little cynicism when you don't watch what you are doing in Iraq.

Anyway, I repost my message here, whitout that links:


I'm writting to you from Spain. I believe the U.S.A. is a democratic country and that the american people, above all, believe in defending and protecting human rights. So I would appreciate it for you all to continue reading this humble message from an ordinary person and reflect on the Iraq war and what is really going on all over the world these days.

It is true that our President, Jose María Aznar, is supportting the war against Iraq, but against the wishes of 91% of Spanish population. Although we all condemn the horrible terrorist strike that you suffered on September 11th, we are against what we strongly believe is an illegal strike on the sovreign nation of Iraq, because of many reasons the principal ones being:

1.- We know there is no link between Al Qaeda and Iraq, and even less between Al Qaeda and the civilian people who are right now dying in that country as we every day can watch on T.V. and newspapers, including children, women and ¡babies! The proof and evidence that your State Secretary, Collin Powell presented to U.N.O. were false as himself admitted a few days after. Anyway, we do believe that this war is not the way to manage the end of international terrorism, and we are in the conviction that this war will only bring on us all worse effects.

2.- About the hypothetic Iraq's weapons of mass destruction: There are many countries which do posses these types of weapons and for many many years too, and nobody ever has attacked them. Anyway at this time Iraq has not used its so-called weapons of mass destruction. And, most of all, I really believe that the war can be a great pretext for other countries to get these types of weapons, so the world will be an increasingly unsafe place.

3.- I our opinion U.S.A. and United Kingdom, with our President's support, have violated international legality, and broken the purpose of U.N.O. because there is no a resolution which authorizes or which approve the strike to Iraq. And further more it is against the UN Charter.

These are some of the reasons, but the most important one is that a lot of people are dying in Iraq: by now more than 1.250 civilians (children included) and your soldiers too. Saddam Hussein is a monster, yes, he is a terrible dictator, but it doesn’t justify the strike to Iraq and all these deaths.

Also I think the U.S. people is not being informed about the war's consequences, because the self-censorship of T.V. and other media. So I ask you to find out by yourself about what is happening right now in Iraq. You can visit some Spanish web sites (http://www.noalaguerra.org, http://www.culturacontralaguerra.org, http://www.elpais.es, http://www.elmundo.es, http://www.cadenaser.com) and get real information about the war.

These links don't overwhelm, so I hope you don't delete them at this time.

I am gratefull for your time in reading this.

Kisses and Peace for all.

The fact that the same post has been re-posted, word for word, makes it look prepared - and spam-a-riffic.

Yeah, but this is the first time a spammer has hung around to check on the status of their message so you never know.

antibland stuck around. i think hes still lurking too.

~james

Oh yeah. Well that one was different because he wanted to have a contest. Well that's OK, readers are almost as valuable as writers, but if they really want their opinion to stick they have to stick around and talk to us and convince us.

Originally posted by Undertoad
Oh yeah. Well that one was different because he wanted to have a contest.

"She", Undertoad, "she": I'm a girl.

I don't like any type of violence, so I don't want to have a "writting-fighting" (I don't know if this word really exist, but I hope you understand me). I only wanted to give you all my modest opinion. Just that. Nothing else.

Originally posted by Rucita
"She", Undertoad, "she": I'm a girl.

but antibland was (is) a "he". :)

~james

Well Ru, you have chosen exactly the wrong moment in history for your message. At the very minute you sent it, this was happening.

Yes, Undertoad, I know and I feel happy for that. I hate Saddam, so I want freedom for iraqi people, but I want a real freedom for that nation. Once the war started I wanted the coalition to win, of course.

What I'm trying to tell you is that I believe we all could have avoided that war, so we all could have avoided a lot of unnecesary deaths. That's all.

Rucita, this is totally off topic, but I have a question...

I have had debates before over the actual Spanish pronunciation of the word "Yo". I have been told, from those that supposedly know, that in Spain it is pronounced kind of like the english "Joe", maybe kind of with a "zh" sound like in "Asiago" - "Zho"... but a lot of people insist that it's just regular ol' "Yo"... settle it for me?

Originally posted by dave
Rucita, this is totally off topic, but I have a question...

I have had debates before over the actual Spanish pronunciation of the word "Yo". I have been told, from those that supposedly know, that in Spain it is pronounced kind of like the english "Joe", maybe kind of with a "zh" sound like in "Asiago" - "Zho"... but a lot of people insist that it's just regular ol' "Yo"... settle it for me?

Let's see. We, Spanish people, pronounce "yo" like English "Joe" (yes, I think is the most similar pronuntiation). But there is in the world a lot of people from other nation that speak Spanish too, and they pronounce some letter in a different way than us, for example Argentine people, who they, certainly, pronounce "yo" like "zho". ;)

Are you Dave studing Spanish?

I'm studing English by my own but you can see I'm not very good on that :(

Rucita, understand that I do not support this war. However, it is my opinion that your reasoning is flawed.

--You cited that 91% of your population is against the war, without providing a source. Hopefully, you do not put too much stock in those polls, as polls can be misleading.

--When did Powell say that his evidence was false? Could you provide a source for that?

--Yes, many nations have weapons of mass destruction; however, Iraq is required to get rid of theirs as a result of the 1991 Gulf War. You can look up the UN resolutions on their website.

--As far as the war being illegal, that depends on the lawyer you talk to. The Bush administration has cited not only 1441, but earlier UN resolutions as justification for war. It's all in the interpretation.

--It saddens me that civilians are being killed. That being said, the numbers are lower that I would have thought, and the Coalition must be given credit for keeping those casualties to a minimum. And besides...war kills innocent people. That should be expected.

--As far as the media, there are plenty of media outlets in the US that provide a wide variety of views. Just today on NPR, an Iranian-American was talking about how the crowds of Iraqis greeting Coalition forces were smaller than anticipated. And intelligent folks in this country don't rely on just one news source, and not necessarily on the American media.

At least you didn't try the "this is only about oil" or the "illegitimate US election" deal, which is good.

So again, understand, I don't support this war. But my problem is, I hear too many people try to use the same rationales in being against the war. This bothers me b/c people don't qualify themselves, thinking that they know facts, when it's merely their opinions...they say things that either simply aren't true, or cannot be confirmed. And it's disappointing quite frankly...but I guess it should be expected.

Originally posted by Rucita
Let's see. We, Spanish people, pronounce "yo" like English "Joe" (yes, I think is the most similar pronuntiation). But there is in the world a lot of people from other nation that speak Spanish too, and they pronounce some letter in a different way than us, for example Argentine people, who they, certainly, pronounce "yo" like "zho". ;)

Yes! A-ha! I am going to tell all the naysayers to go jump in a lake.

Are you Dave studing Spanish?

I took three years of Spanish in high school, and I was really in love with learning another language, but my teacher totally and completely turned me off from it. She made Spanish a horrible ordeal and by the end of my third year, I quit it. However, when I was studying, I tried to be as perfect at is as I could - working on my accent, grammar, etc. My teachers all thought I was going to be fluent by the end of five years, but like I said, I never got there.

Fortunately, in the last year or so I've rediscovered my love of language. I am not <b>currently</b> studying Spanish because I had a house fire just after I had bought a bunch of Spanish books and they were all destroyed. But in another month or so, I should be back on the right track.

It's funny, because I haven't sat down and thought about saying anything in Spanish in almost six years, but sometimes I'll just rattle something off in conversation without even thinking about it. I was particularly happy with myself when I ran into a girl at the Metro (I live near Washington, D.C.) and she needed money to make a phone call. She spoke zero English and was trying to communicate with me. I understood her Spanish perfectly and told her, in Spanish, that I had some change and she could have it, no need to give me a dollar for a few quarters. I don't even remember what I <b>said</b>, but I said it perfectly and she understood it like I <b>was</b> fluent. It was awesome.

So anyway, I guess there's some left under the surface, and I just need to awaken it.

(I am also studying German - I love languages, and plan to spend the rest of my life learning as many of them as possible.)

I'm studing English by my own but you can see I'm not very good on that :(

Nonsense! Your English is actually very good. I wouldn't mistake you for someone who has spent their life studying the language, but I certainly wouldn't mistake you for someone who's only been studying a few months either. If you and I were face to face, I would have absolutely no trouble understanding you. Living where I do, I know a <b>lot</b> of people for whom English is a second (or seventh) language, and a vast majority of them are much worse with it than you.

If you want any help with English, let me know. I'm perfectly happy to show you what's correct and tell you why. (I think everyone should be multilingual, and to those that are making an effort to learn my native language, I offer nothing but assistance. Multiculturalism should be encouraged.)

Originally posted by sycamore

--You cited that 91% of your population is against the war, without providing a source. Hopefully, you do not put too much stock in those polls, as polls can be misleading.

http://www.cis.es/baros/mar2481.doc
question # 19, (20.8 + 70.0= 90.8%)

http://www.cadenaser.com/PaginasASP/especiales_ser.asp?pagina=pulsometro/030224/index.htm
Go down until read “Ataque a Irak” and the read #1: El 94% de los españoles, en contra de un ataque a Irak. Cerca del 80% no respaldaría la intervención aunque tuviera el respaldo de la ONU (translate: 94% Sapanish population against the war in Iraq. About 80% are against the military operation even with U.N.O. support)


I’m a lawyer and I’ve read the N.U. resolutions, all them. My interpretation is that the war is absolutly illegal. But most of all I’m afraid this war will bring us more September 11th’s and I don’t want it. I hate terrorism. We in Spain have been suffered for 25 years and still suffer terrorist strikes from a terrorist group called ETA and by all this years we have observed that our own violence can’t stop ETA. I think there is no way to stop terrorism for all but education and politness (well, as John said, “you may say I’m a dreamer”... but I know I’m not the only one). I’d rather be gullible and believe that another world is possible and do as much as I can, as be in my hand to make the world a better place.

By other way the N.U. Inspectors have said that in the last month, before the war started, Iraq was begining to destroy its weapons of mass destruction, so why suddenly such a hurry? I’ve already read an interview to Hans Blix (in Spanish newspaper “El Pais”) and Blix said: “We could have taken control to the threat of Saddam with the inspections”. By the way, where are the weapons of mass destruction?

I really think we could have avoided the war.

Originally posted by dave

If you want any help with English, let me know. I'm perfectly happy to show you what's correct and tell you why. (I think everyone should be multilingual, and to those that are making an effort to learn my native language, I offer nothing but assistance. Multiculturalism should be encouraged.)

I think like you too. Thanks very much for your helping, I sure really need it :D And I tell to you the same: if you need some help just call me ;)

“Naturally, current people do not want the war, but really those are the leaders of a country that determine the policy, and to drag the people is one of the simplest things, or in a democracy, a facist dictatorship, a parliament or a communist dictatorship. With or without voice, always it is possible to put to people to the orders of the leaders. It is simple. The only thing that must do is to say that they are being attacked and to denounce to the pacifists by lack of patriotism and to put to its country in danger. It works equal in any country”.

Hermann Goering, Marshal of the Third Reich of Hitler
:rolleyes:

Rucita, that has already been posted and commented on here.

What was that about us being uninformed?

In reading and posting to our Spanish peeps' website, one thing that concerns me is that many of these folks really don't seem to think that we "know the truth." Which is why they came here, I suppose...to bring "it" to us.

I discussed the media and our own biases in the war diary 2 weeks ago, but in reading the posts on CCLG, I'd say some of those folks are as biased as some in the pro-war crowd. We also touched on this in another thread that I'm too lazy to look for...

No, I want the Spaniards to see it...aqui.

The truth is somewhere between the two extremes. You're right. I'm right. You're wrong. I'm wrong. Fuck it, I'm gonna go get a beer...you want one?

Originally posted by sycamore
Fuck it, I'm gonna go get a beer...you want one?

Do you even have to ask?

Hermann always had such a way with words, nicht war?

Originally posted by Griff
Do you even have to ask?

I had yours poured already, bro.

Two inspectors of the equipment of Blix say that Powell lay before the Council of the UN

They deny that the photos presented/displayed by the North American Secretary of State proved that Iraq had arms of massive destruction
14/04/03

Two inspectors - a German and a Norwegian who comprised of the equipment of Hans Blix in Iraq blame the United States (the U.S.A.) to have sent numerous deceptions in relation to the supposed existence of arms of massive destruction.

In a news article that will tonight emit the first public television network German "ARD", the experts mention like example of that campaign of disinformation some of the details presented/displayed by the Secretary of State, Colin Powell, in their intervention before the Security Council of the UN the past day 5 of February.

In that meeting, that the U.S.A. used like definitive test that Sadam Husein continued having arms of massive destruction, Powell taught photos taken from a satellite in which supposedly Iraqian trucks of decontamination could be seen.

As much the German inspector, an expert in computer science that he prefers to remain in the anonymity, like his colleague Norwegian, Joern Siljeholm, that works in the Institute of Technology of Massachusetts, assures that the vehicles that were seen in the images they were tankers or cars of firemen.

"the decontamination trucks are a good example of a refuted testimony. It is not that we had not found the trucks, we found them, but they were not special vehicles but of storage of water or cars of fireman. In no case one was decontamination trucks, no matter how much the company says to it ", affirms Siljeholm in the mentioned news article.

Also the systems of ventilation in the tile roofs of factories that, according to the U.S.A., allowed to deduce that there chemical arms made, they turned out to be inoffensive, and in the buildings at issue armament of that type did not take place, assures the inspector.

After the experience lived on the land, Siljeholm reaches the conclusion that the speech of Powell before the Security Council was "false" and "deceptive".

"I believe that if the testimonies were analyzed, one would reach the conclusion that they were totally false", concludes the Norwegian expert.

Transaltion: google.com

Font: http://www.cadenaser.es/PaginasASP/Noticia.asp?Id_Portal=10000038&Id_hojaPadre=home_ser.asp&Id_Noticias=10045801

Originally posted by wolf
Hermann always had such a way with words, nicht war?

Ahem...

Ja, das ist <b>wahr</b>.

So, you agree with me in the lies of Collin Powell?

No.

Sorry, I've asked dave.

Rucita - not really, but it doesn't really matter. I wasn't a war supporter anyway. I was sitting on the fence.

Now that it's underway though, I think it needs to get finished, and I think we need to win pretty decisively and, yes, set up a government that will do well by the Iraqi people.

My argument is not necessarily that the war should have happened for the reasons presented by the administration, but rather, now that it's underway, is it really so bad, what with so many people gaining their freedom?

Now it's underway it's not really so bad that some people gain their freedom, if they really gain it. It would be the smaller evil. I mean if I have to be happy about something on war is just about that, no more else. We could be mistaken, but our feeling here in Spain is that Iraqi people has gone out of a dictatorship to go into a new type of dictatorship, because they are going to be under and to depend on U.S.A.

Off topic, there are too much people, american but not U.S. people (like Argentine, Mexican, Canadian, etc.), that want you to don't name yourself Americans, because in the whole American continent there are so much countries than U.S.A. What do you guys think about it?

I've thought about this before, but hey... it's tradition, it's easiest to say, etc. Everyone calls us "Americans" and so it just kinda stuck. I agree though, it's kind of dumb. But what else can we be? "USAers"? "United States-ians"? Nothing else is easy. :) For Spain it's "Spaniards"... Mexicans, Canadians... that's all easy. We have a funny name for a country. :)

Off topic, there are too much people, american but not U.S. people (like Argentine, Mexican, Canadian, etc.), that want you to don't name yourself Americans, because in the whole American continent there are so much countries than U.S.A. What do you guys think about it?

It's like the war. It's a fact and there is no going back.