Narcissistic Personality Disorder (a novella, sorry)
Hi Cellar! I've just ended a year and a half of employment where my boss suffered from narcissistic personality disorder.
Of all the personality disorders one might have, here is the one that you really don't want your boss to have. You are supposed to have five or more of these to qualify as NPD. He pretty much has them all.
-- Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
-- Requires excessive admiration
-- Has a very strong sense of entitlement, e.g., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
-- Is exploitative of others, e.g., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
-- Lacks empathy, e.g., is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
-- Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
-- Regularly shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes
-- Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
-- Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
He would routinely shock and amaze me with fratboy statements out of nowhere. He seemed to want to impress me with his incredible levels of sexism, or to include me in his unevolved shit. He once said he thinks women are useless, during a discussion of how he enjoyed the strippers they had at a golf outing. I was often left speechless by insane levels of douchebaggery.
When we would talk about my counterpart in Britain, he would inevitably point out that he was a fat ugly slob and could not get laid. My counterpart was a normal human being with a wife and teenage children. My boss was also married with younger children. I imagine they got laid at a similar rate. My boss had never met my support counterpart in person and had only seen pictures.
He has absolutely zero empathy for others. Makes no emotional connection with others. He once asked me why he couldn't teach people. His method was to ask people leading questions they didn't know the answer to, embarrassing them, and making them feel like shit. The implication is, here is something I know and you don't know. Why don't you know it? Fix yourself! It is the least effective method of teaching I've ever seen. He said that it was the best way anyone had ever taught HIM.
The dynamic of the office meant he had to teach everyone an awful lot in order for the office to be successful.
(continued below)
The workplace was a handful of people. A new hire found himself unable to make it to work in time in the morning. You know people who are simply late and unaccustomed to making a schedule. This was this young gent's first real job. Eventually he would be docked a day's pay for being late. My boss hated him for it. Meanwhile my boss would come in late, go out at lunch to work out and come back late, take entire days off for any personal needs, and leave early on a routine basis. I thought if timeliness was important, showing a good example would be the way to do that. But the rules were, he was the boss and got to set his own hours.
The office would only hire salespeople they thought/knew were losers. Why: it was important to think of them as losers, so boss would feel better about himself. He would complain bitterly about the people that he had decided to hire, and that they were such idiots they could not be developed. We'd be in his office, and a salesguy would come in and ask about something and not immediately understand; once they left he would say to me "You see what I have to deal with?"
He asked me why the Brit engineers were not interested in helping him, because I understand engineers. This led to an unrealistic escalation where he ended the conversation with "They can just get new jobs" if they don't like working with people like him. I didn't explain that even thinking the engineers should be fired is actually why they don't want to work with him. I didn't explain that I was his engineer, and that in casually dismissing people's engineering careers, he was casually dismissing mine.
Everyone else was always the reason he was not successful. In his mind, his own moves were fine and the actions of others were keeping him down. In every business there are issues and problems you have to deal with. In this one, these issues were taken personally.
He had a special hatred for gay people and would routinely say horrible things. When the news reported a center city attack of 14 douchebag high school students on two gay men, leaving them bloodied and hospitalized, he said the gay guys brought it upon themselves. I would say there is a 1/3 chance that he is gay and that this is part of the root of all of this.
I figured all this out very quickly and, for my own purposes, dealt with him extremely carefully, as if each statement was a mine in a minefield. When he asked why he couldn't reach certain people, I told him he was "intimidating" -- knowing this was not the real underlying cause, but that we couldn't discuss the real underlying cause. I figured he would take it as a compliment, and he did. Whenever he would bitch about things I would calmly take his side and agree with his ranting. This was a successful way to maintain.
When I announced I was leaving, he gave me wide berth the last two weeks. I suspect he took it as an insult, and one more way his people were making life hard for him.
But here's the thing!
I also sensed that he was this way because he was fundamentally broken. Deep in his heart, he is a ball of weird insecurities. All this harsh douchebaggery is really due to how he feels about himself. Every comment a weird reflection of crushing internal damage. Knowing this made it possible to work with him. I'd leave his office and think, how sad it is; how troubled he must be. This absolute jerk of a human being is that way because of human failings we all have. And I would concentrate on the good aspects of his personality and hope that his sociopathic charm would make us successful to buyers.
Had he known I felt that way, I think he would have considered me enemy number one. But it was the main thing that allowed me to work with him for so long.
This from you? I'm confused.
Ha! I understand. My own personality disorder is antisocial tendencies and a selfish starting point stemming from my upbringing as an only child without a father. It's not narcissism. I'm happy to discuss my own many horrible failings if that's how the thread goes. Do go on.
He once said he thinks women are useless, during a discussion of how he enjoyed the strippers they had at a golf outing.
To be fair, isn't that the way he feels about everyone? I'd love to engage his wife in conversation after she'd had a few drinks. You know, when she starts whispering the just between you and me dirt. :haha:
This from you? I'm confused.
What? You didn't know Dr Toad analyses everyone? The Cellar, for that matter the world, is his couch... not that there's anything wrong with that. :haha:
Actually trying to figure out peoples motivations, rather than just snap judging their actions, is a good way of coping with people, it shows empathy.
Remember the universal truth, people suck.
Of all the personality disorders one might have, here is the one that you really don't want your boss to have.
Nor your mother, trust me.
I do feel like I should add to this -- this is venting. This is the inevitable vomit at the end of a year and a half of being handcuffed to somebody. This is the rude situation of the office, where you spend MORE time with some people than with your loved ones.
He did an awful lot for me, in this period of getting my mojo back. So this is entirely unfair and I only get to do it because it's anonymous. I assume there is much fiercer ranting happening in his household, about my failings. Which are many. And horrible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWlkwEbMnLo&list=PL2822CA5F091EBAA4
Dr. Sam Vakanin. Self proclaimed Narcissist and author of Malignant Self Love
I work with someone who fits that description very well, btw. 11 years now.. It's exhausting at times
this is venting
I knew that. You put up with me, and others, for your own reasons. Often showing [strike] remarkable [/strike] unnecessary restraint in most post replies, when people who know you, know you don't suffer fools easily, and are capable of scathing dialog. :haha:
For that we loves ya, but makes me cringe a little when you're being diplomatic, but I suspect you would really like to breath fire.
I couldn't vent about you if we were handcuffed for ten years buddy. You make emotional connections with others, you have empathy, and it turns out that is the most important thing.
Nor your mother, trust me.
Nor your husband
...you have empathy, and it turns out that is the most important thing.
It is! And you have it:
I also sensed that he was this way because he was fundamentally broken. Deep in his heart, he is a ball of weird insecurities. All this harsh douchebaggery is really due to how he feels about himself. Every comment a weird reflection of crushing internal damage. Knowing this made it possible to work with him. I'd leave his office and think, how sad it is; how troubled he must be. This absolute jerk of a human being is that way because of human failings we all have. And I would concentrate on the good aspects of his personality and hope that his sociopathic charm would make us successful to buyers.
My question is, is it better to use the above as a starting place to help people like this, or is it more empathetic to assume that the broken simply cannot be fixed? On the one hand, they "deserve" help like we all do, but on the other hand, the extreme of empathy is to absolve them of all responsibility/hope to change.
I am down with the "there is a reason they are the way they are" mentality, but I struggle with my instinctive and permanent writing off of people that I see as being beyond help. I feel bad for them, but I also refuse to deal with them, and I'm not sure if that's more or less moral than hoping to fix them.
Q: How many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb?
A: Well, it only takes one psychologist; but, the lightbulb has to really want to change.
I cut my losses until they want to change; then, when they do I'm there for them. Life's too short to waste on some of the agonistic free wills out there.
...on the other hand, the extreme of empathy is to absolve them of all responsibility/hope to change.
I am down with the "there is a reason they are the way they are" mentality, but I struggle with my instinctive and permanent writing off of people that I see as being beyond help. I feel bad for them, but I also refuse to deal with them, and I'm not sure if that's more or less moral than hoping to fix them.
Empathy is good. Helping them is good. But self defense is also good. It isn't wise to jump in after someone who's drowning if you can't swim.
It doesn't help, it just adds drama, and complicates the situation. There will definitely be times you feel bad for them, but there's not a damn thing you can do without harming yourself, and times you just can't do a damn thing.
Oh, and if you believe in karma... they deserve it. :haha:
I also sensed that he was this way because he was fundamentally broken. Deep in his heart, he is a ball of weird insecurities. All this harsh douchebaggery is really due to how he feels about himself. Every comment a weird reflection of crushing internal damage. Knowing this made it possible to work with him. I'd leave his office and think, how sad it is; how troubled he must be. This absolute jerk of a human being is that way because of human failings we all have. And I would concentrate on the good aspects of his personality and hope that his sociopathic charm would make us successful to buyers.
Had he known I felt that way, I think he would have considered me enemy number one. But it was the main thing that allowed me to work with him for so long.
That's narcissistic injury, it's what people with NPD usually believe about themselves, and work so hard to shove the dangerous thought away, as well as anything that could link to it. Ironically, this usually ends up creating that which is "broken" with them in the first place, or rather - destructive.
To say that they are right about that deep down held belief - that they actually are fundamentally broken and thus develop NPD to cover it up - is a more problematic assertion. In order for something to be fundamentally broken or flawed there has to be a "way it's supposed to be" but isn't, or a use/meaning that it can't fulfill properly, which I don't think humans really come with.
Nor your husband
...Or your wife.
All of those. People in the first circle of those close to you, who get the chance over years and years to do real damage, and who do so with focus and deliberation.
It took years for me to learn that protecting myself doesn't mean I'm harming the narcissist. So far, among the narcissists I have had the misfortune to know/be related to, none have any intention of changing anything. So I keep my distance and try to fend off the FOG (fear-obligation-guilt) that wafts my way during attempts by these people to re-engage in old behavior patterns.
[YOUTUBE]j13oJajXx0M&start=52[/YOUTUBE]
All of those. People in the first circle of those close to you, who get the chance over years and years to do real damage, and who do so with focus and deliberation.
Doesn't it makes you wonder though?
Naturally there are going to be more people who have someone with NPD in their circles then people with NPD, but would the number of victims of narcissistic abuse still add up to a realistic number of people with NPD?
How much of this is attribution error or simply positional, resulting from their position, the dynamic you are in or your perspective on it, rather then inherit to who they are? Are they - in their own life bubble far far away - having the same conversation about you? Each a case of two people fighting and kicking each other but too blinded to see the bruises on the other to realize their own bruises are part of a larger picture they've become blind too?
What if we're all just part of the same endless forest of people who are too close to each other to see beyond their own treetops, everyone writing stories where they are the hero or the victim but never the bad guy, everyone been too self righteous to see their part in what they inflict on others or their own damaging behavior to see the other by the same standards?
[YOUTUBE]vYafR-6wNGE[/YOUTUBE]
So glad you've found a better gig, Toad. x
So glad you've found a better gig, Toad. x
Right there is the bottom line.
Thanks you guys. New gig begins today. You never know what you're gonna get.
~
This morning I was remembering what I mentioned to J about NPD: my ex had a touch of it too, although much less than this guy. She was a 7 where he was a 10.
One night my ex and I were walking down the Ocean City, MD boardwalk, a September night, filled with people; and she said to me,
I think I'm better than all these people.
I took it more as a statement about the averageness of the OC crowd, their habits and tastes, but it was really her own belief of her superiority as a human being.
You want there to be a hint of self-awareness and that's where the "I think" comes in; and the statement in and of itself. My boss would not have said it, just kept it in his head; and if he did say it, he wouldn't have said "I think".
And you want it to be a confession: "I think I'm better than all these people but I have come to the realization that I am pretty much the same, in the things that really matter." But it wasn't at all a confession.
And you want me to say to her some nugget of wisdom that frames the statement; but we are in our early 30s in this story, so there is no wisdom to be found. All I do is keep walking and think well maybe that is the case, she's very impressive and I am lucky to be married to someone very impressive.
And she is unable to make an emotional connection, that big NPD bullet point. Which in turn means she does not contain desire -- which in turn, leaves her with zero passion -- which in turn, means she was simply horrible in bed. Without having done the actual survey work, I'd say she was one of the worst lays on the Ocean City, MD boardwalk.
There's that nugget of wisdom.
Well that's a thread-killing observation eh?
Good, cos I ain't close to done.
Everybody's ex is whacko in one way or another. In your case, you're fortunate to understand what pigeon hole she should be in, but that didn't help much, except maybe keep you sane. Just be thankful she had great tits and you're now away from the crazy.
The thread pause is, we were waiting with abated breath, for reports from the new gig. The Champagne and tarts welcoming breakfast, the second day promotion, the incredible sexy personal secretary, stuff like that. ;)
Everybody's ex is whacko in one way or another. In your case, you're fortunate to understand what pigeon hole she should be in, but that didn't help much, except maybe keep you sane. Just be thankful she had great tits and you're now away from the crazy.
The thread pause is, we were waiting with abated breath, for reports from the new gig. The Champagne and tarts welcoming breakfast, the second day promotion, the incredible sexy personal secretary, stuff like that. ;)
this is not drift, this is sabotage. Let's keep talking about UT's situation, not mine, okey?
:wink:
Speaking of exes ... mine was planning on getting married on my birthday next year. When I discussed it with her, she simply said "Its just another day"
Um, OK - just another day I'm taking all the kids on a tropical vacation to Mexico. :)
Anyway - she went up got married yesterday - never told the kids (27, 25, 23). My daughter and I found out at the same time when she saw the post on BaseFook. My daughter was REALLY upset. Seriously, help me out here. WTF? She didn't even tell her own kids nor call them afterward? She has them see a fucking post on FB? Really? Is it me?
Is it me?
I'll assume that's a rhetorical question, because you've known the answer to that one for a very long time. ;)
The new gig is going great so far -- and to keep it on topic, I'm so attuned to that NPD personality type, that I can say for certain after only two days that nobody at the new place has it.
It's a relief. When NPD guy was away from the office, the whole place was happier. People would discreetly share information on when he was going to be away. ("Is it Thursday and Friday, or is it just Friday?") For me he's now "away" permanently and that feeling lasts.
It's so strange... not only are the new peeps simply of a different personality type, but they seem concerned that the new hire process is working, that there's nothing they're leaving out, etc. etc. a whole different way of working which values the new person, and it all feels warm and fuzzy. This in turn makes me want to do a great job for them, and I hope that is the point.
I'll go on, because who knows how long this stuff will be fresh on my mind.
I remember thinking this might be a tough ride during the first week. One day two I heard NPD guy yelling, on the phone, at a customer service person for his bank.
He was pulling out all the stops, "Well would they like it if I came down there and took all my money out of my accounts??" and other such really bullshit things angry people say to customer service people over the phone.
But maybe he was having a bad day himself. No, he's just that way. He doesn't need to treat others as human beings. They are just tools to get what he wants.
~
A few days later he asked if I had an eBay account, and could I get two of our office phones. He gave me the company credit card. I bid on and won the phones, but only then figured out that I couldn't pay with someone else's card, only my own. This was bad because I was broke; and furthermore the company was notoriously bad at reimbursements for our office, being on another continent. I had committed to spending over $100 I didn't have. I hadn't even gotten a paycheck yet.
I explained this to NPD guy and he told me to just not go through with the deal. I said "Well then the seller will give me a negative, and I have a 100% rating." "Well now it'll be 99%," he replied, walking away.
I wound up buying the phones and selling them back out.
And quickly learned to watch this guy, better to know right away, without getting beat up too bad. Go Toad. :thumb:
Okay, who wants to be the bad guy here...?
Anyone? (Bueller?)
Anyone?
Nope.
Me then.
I don't have a Narcissistic Personality Disorder, although sometimes I pretend on here to be more about me me me than I really am. It's a pressure valve, you know?
But I do have a personality disorder. And the addiction issues and dangerous behavioural impulses that tag along with it.
I'm really really hard work. Y'all are okay behind your screens because I can't get to you.
I burn through people very quickly by being too needy, demanding and downright appalling.
I hurt very good people. I did this with my ex husband and I doubt I will ever have a "romantic" relationship again, even though I think I'm in love. I don't know if that decision makes me a better person, or just makes me more of a drama queen, but I've held firm on that for nearly two decades now.
All I'm saying is that people can be nasty, be awful, cruel and unkind and show no empathy. But there are also people out there who can't help their own f*cked up heads, and try their best afterwards to make amends because they were actually raised right and do feel it.
No help to you if you're the one they've steamrollered.
But I'm a rollercoaster ride. Hop on and try.
Borderline I'm supposing?
The online version of you is moderated, and pleasant to be around.
Yes I'm borderline.
And yes, the mods help me here.
I burn through people very quickly by being too needy, demanding and downright appalling.
Fine one night stand without breakfast, though. :blush:
All I'm saying is that people can be nasty, be awful, cruel and unkind and show no empathy.
Hey, I represent that.
If you know you have a personality disorder, I think you are a little ahead of the game. Regardless of whether you can do anything about it without therapy.
I don't think NPD guy realizes his situation. I believe it is self-defeating in his case and will probably lead to a general downfall. The websites that discuss it, say that NPDs eventually wind up depressed or otherwise dysfunctional. What other outcome could there be, if they believe they are designed for success, and then the personality that tells them that makes it impossible. You can't be the boss if people don't want to work for you.
I think we can only escape our personality quirks, however we want to describe them, through years of therapy where we're actively working on it, or medications that slowly retrain our brains to different patterns. Someone who is PTSD has had their brain trained to react to repeated stresses - but over time it can be retrained to not react that way.
If you know you have a personality disorder, I think you are a little ahead of the game. Regardless of whether you can do anything about it without therapy.
Sure, you're ahead of the game knowing whom you insulted/annoyed/pissed off. You can avoid them, or watch your back, if nothing else. ;)
What if you were an unmitigated success as an NPD personality. Alec Baldwin. David Hasselhoff. Are they happy?
Fine one night stand without breakfast, though.
Okay. I'm not
quite that bad.
I can make it through breakfast.
And you'll get a BJ if you serve a Bloody Mary.
I don't think NPD guy realizes his situation.
That's a scary thought. So how can any of us know if we have NPD? Maybe I have NPD and don't realize it. But by asking that question, am I demonstrating that I don't have NPD?
Also, how can somebody with NPD get into a position of power? Who gave him the boss job and why? Surely they knew he was a tool?
It is scary - it's almost like - if there was a thread like this about you, would you read it? Wouldn't it be both devastating and the most helpful thing ever?
~
His young dream was to become James Bond of America, but was turned down by the Secret Service (but not before buying his own Walther PPK, because that's what you do)
He was unsuccessful in the real world for a while (with anger management issues)
But he then went to work for his dad, and was successful at sales. Sales is where a lot of these cats will end up, because that's where it works: they are extremely confident, which is attractive in a salesperson. And they are able to flat-out lie, or play chess games when necessary. The parent company bought their sales company when they wanted a US sales office.
But by asking that question, am I demonstrating that I don't have NPD?
It shows you care, which is probably a good indication you don't.
...(but not before buying his own Walther PPK, because that's what you do)
Shows he was completely out of touch with reality, and probably would instead of taking a bullet for the prez, would choose someone else to. :rolleyes:
...
Also, how can somebody with NPD get into a position of power?
Who gave him the boss job and why? Surely they knew he was a tool?
OK - Do NOT take me too seriously here, but... it's largely power and point of view...
First, pretend for the moment you are a young Black American male.
Got it ? ... but instead of just one year, think of a lifetime
Now, read the bullet points defining NPD in UT's OP
here
Who comes to mind ?
.
I'm not sure where you are trying to lead me? Is it a cops thing?
I'm not sure where you are trying to lead me? Is it a cops thing?
NPD may be a legitimate diagnosis of a mental defect, I don't know.
But it doesn't surprise me that a simple change in POV engendered the "cop thing".
It was just a simple way to show "...it's largely power and point of view"
To present certain behaviors as a specific "defect" distorts the continuum of power we all see daily,
and which becomes less bearable the further down we are on a given power-scale.
Speaking of exes ... mine was planning on getting married on my birthday next year. When I discussed it with her, she simply said "Its just another day"
Um, OK - just another day I'm taking all the kids on a tropical vacation to Mexico. :)
Anyway - she went up got married yesterday - never told the kids (27, 25, 23). My daughter and I found out at the same time when she saw the post on BaseFook. My daughter was REALLY upset. Seriously, help me out here. WTF? She didn't even tell her own kids nor call them afterward? She has them see a fucking post on FB? Really? Is it me?
My mom did this too. No facebook in those days, turned up on the doorstep with a slice of wedding cake "for us" with new husband waiting in car. I was maybe 11. Some people are just....
Everybody's ex is whacko in one way or another.
...Are there people with ex's who aren't themselves people's ex's? Doesn't that just mean everyone is a whacko? If not innately, then at least after a relationship...
Personally, at least one of my ex's
can be so sane and reasonable most of the time that it's almost a form of insanity on it's own right.
As far as the other one goes - I sometimes wish she was a psychopath. A psychopath will stab you once because you are in their way, a narcissist will then stab you again and again for bleeding offensively in a way that implies they could ever stab someone in the first place, then bury you alive but bleeding to muffle the noises.
I say "can" for a reason though - she can also be far from it - but there is nothing within the realm of sanity that is deprived of her. However, "can be sane" can not be said of the other one - There are fundamental human emotional capacities she is not really capable of. It took me a long time to acknowledge it about her, and when I did I still used to fantasize that any moment she'd rise to the occasion and prove it all wrong and make it all go away. Obviously, that never happened.
I think "can" is a good measuring stick - kind of like the difference between the concepts of positive liberty and negative liberty, but for sanity. This is part of why I cringe whenever someone argues in favor of trigger words for PTSD - I've been diagnosed with PTSD with a 1st and 2nd opinion agreeing obnoxiously, but I just learned to treat panic attacks and flashbacks as part of life, the idea that I should run away from it and let it handicap me... I hate that approach.
P.S.
I am counting 7 possible discussion drifting direction points above, hopefully they'll cancel each other out. Quick, someone say something positively supporting and encouraging to Toad. Or I'll do it.. With the power of emotes.
*LOOKS AT TOAD*
*ENCOURAGE*
*ENCOURAGE*
*ENCOURAGE*
*ENCOURAGE*
Did that work?
That's a scary thought. So how can any of us know if we have NPD? Maybe I have NPD and don't realize it.
You can actually just go to a good psychiatrist.
I am serious btw. Some of them just try to subscribe meds, but others are extremely cautious and will look for a more complete diagnosis. It was one of the things she tested me for - among many others - through a series of sessions, though without me knowing until after the fact. If you'll ask once she has done her summary and if she is willing to give you the time and explain things - what various conditions and causes she looked for and what canceled them out - you wont only come out knowing what you do have, you'll also come out knowing a bunch of what you probably don't.
Drift away sir, I don't know that I have much more to say about NPD guy.
...Are there people with ex's who aren't themselves people's ex's? Doesn't that just mean everyone is a whacko? If not innately, then at least after a relationship...
Yes.
You can actually just go to a good psychiatrist.
Sadly, I've never met one.
There was the one who told me I wasn't depressed, but beyond that (in our only-ever and five minute appointment) told me nothing else.
There was the one who didn't want me to spend Christmas with my family last year, despite the fact he'd never met me before and I certainly had not indicated that there was an issue with my family apart from me missing them.
And there was the one who gave me my official diagnosis on the basis of two (lucky me - TWO this time!) meetings. Then despite one of my issues being a problem with dealing with any kind of change except the jingly sort, told me I was leaving the nuthouse that day. I don't expect everyone to understand my problems, and I don't really expect people to make allowances for them. But the one place where you'd hope for a little understanding of mental health is a mental health facility.
My mom did this too. ~~. Some people are just....
Thanks ... still shaking my head and trying to clean up the mess with the kids.
OK, Done hijacking this thread - Sorry UT.
They do have tests that will tell you if you're NPD. I took one. Jinx had me pretty convinced that I was AFU.... and maybe I am... but I don't have NPD. I hit a couple points on that list in the OP, but not enough to be diagnosed as damaged. And I'm actually a pretty nice person. I DO have empathy. Sometimes I don't have much Sympathy... but that's because people are assholes.
Just for a few seconds diversion...
[YOUTUBE]mr6XHJ7qcSE[/YOUTUBE]
glatt - by jewography laws I am guessing you are probably related to quite a few people around here, one way or another.
If you ever have a trip planned that includes staying in the north of Israel long enough (You could just make it condensed daily sessions - that's what I did), I can look up her contact information.
They do have tests that will tell you if you're NPD. I took one. Jinx had me pretty convinced that I was AFU.... and maybe I am... but I don't have NPD. I hit a couple points on that list in the OP, but not enough to be diagnosed as damaged. And I'm actually a pretty nice person. I DO have empathy. Sometimes I don't have much Sympathy... but that's because people are assholes.
You mean online tests?
From those I've seen they don't test for narcissism the personality disorder, they test for narcissism the fictionalized trope.
The problem is that those are not the same thing. People with NPD can be narcissistic - it is a possible indication because it's a great strategy for gaining narcissistic supply - but they are just as likely to be covert narcissists, or even be neither but still have narcissistic injury, be incapable of seen themselves and act on narcissistic rage when something in life indirectly suggests the narcissistic injury could be true. On the other hand, you can also just be an arrogant asshole without having any of those.
glatt - by jewography laws I am guessing you are probably related to quite a few people around here, one way or another.
If you ever have a trip planned that includes staying in the north of Israel long enough (You could just make it condensed daily sessions - that's what I did), I can look up her contact information.
Thanks! I don't foresee any trips to Israel soon. Not that I'm opposed to the idea, it's just not anything that I've ever seriously considered.
My handle, by the way, comes from an old nickname that's a play on my real name. It wasn't until years after I got this nickname that I learned that it's also a Jewish thing. I'm not Jewish.
My handle, by the way, comes from an old nickname that's a play on my real name. It wasn't until years after I got this nickname that I learned that it's also a Jewish thing. I'm not Jewish.
[YOUTUBE]zn425KBIwvg[/YOUTUBE]
You mean online tests?
From those I've seen they don't test for narcissism the personality disorder, they test for narcissism the fictionalized trope.
The problem is that those are not the same thing. People with NPD can be narcissistic - it is a possible indication because it's a great strategy for gaining narcissistic supply - but they are just as likely to be covert narcissists, or even be neither but still have narcissistic injury, be incapable of seen themselves and act on narcissistic rage when something in life indirectly suggests the narcissistic injury could be true. On the other hand, you can also just be an arrogant asshole without having any of those.
No, I don't mean online tests. I mean I took the MMPI 2.
I took an online IQ test once though, and I have an IQ of 142. That's pretty good right? And if I was a car, I would be a Ford Mustang. And I should live in Denver.
As for being an arrogant asshole.... Well.... Aren't these non clinical terms for NPD?
As for being an arrogant asshole.... Well.... Aren't these non clinical terms for NPD?
Not really - the diagnosis expanded and drifted apart over time
In current psychology NPD is a very specific condition about what is causing various problems that can include arrogant assholeness among them. Imagine a Venn diagram with NPD and the other with traits from the narccisstic character archetype (or arrogant asshole for short) , neither circles engulf each other.
There are plenty of people in the NPD circle who aren't outwardly arrogant assholes, but still suffer from narcissistic injury and still go out of their way to protect their sense of identity from unfortunate implications that in the back of their minds reinforces that injury, just by using different - often more covert - strategies.
There are people within the cross section, Undertoad's boss sounds like he might be a good example of that. But this is a very specific strategy of building narcissistic supply - putting people down and trying to force people to fear or revere you - as a defense mechanism to protect the injury.
Then the are people who behave that way, but aren't using it for the same end, which is easy enough to tell - They can generally take criticism, they can be emphatic and caring beyond the question of whether they are liked by others, including viewing themselves negatively from the perspective of others when empathy includes that, capable of forming strong emotional bonds, etc.
Basically narcissism got demoted to one possible symptom of NPD, not the defining trait.
They do have tests that will tell you if you're NPD.
Pshaw, nobody is qualified to test me, mere mortals can't appreciate how awesome I am.
:haha:
Sometimes I don't have much Sympathy... but that's because people are assholes.
That seems like a fair statement most of the time, but I wonder if it's I don't notice the people who aren't, or just have a different set of values/standards than the majority?
You'll never know since you can't be tested.
Just have to test all of them. :eyeball:
I DO have empathy. Sometimes I don't have much Sympathy... but that's because people are assholes.
Isn't it their lack of sympathy that enables them to be assholes in the first place?
The Niceness Prisoner's Dilemma... Wrong NPD but unavoidably related, that pun has potential.
That seems like a fair statement most of the time, but I wonder if it's I don't notice the people who aren't, or just have a different set of values/standards than the majority?
Is it really a fair statement?
I get what you mean by different set of values, I mean with some of the conversations right here I end up wondering if my understanding of ethics seems
like blue and orange morality from the perspectives of others here.
But the question of whether most people are assholes is kind of fundemental to any set of values, because it invokes asking what makes someone into an asshole.
I've more or less come to the conclusion that I don't believe in bad intentions, or at the very least the extent to which they exist doesn't come close to the frequency in which people use them to explain other people. People generally want to be good - when presented with clear cut easy to understand options almost everyone chooses what is presented as good. Think about this: People seek ethical structures from the moment they can grasp them. We are genetically evolved to live within large tribes, to the point that small children instinctively try to look to their authority figures and use them to form ideas about right and wrong - what is ok or not ok to do - and do so by manner of following body language and tone of voice before even having a well equipped vocabulary to reason through those notions. Think what it says about us as a species that people who don't do this or who actually seek to cause harm for harm's sake are actually considered mentally ill.
But that doesn't mean that people are particularly good at being good people. And the existence of malevolence as a concept is prime example of why. Malevolence is more of a narrative tool in the stories people tell themselves then a characteristic humans embody, because when everything revolves around you, people become assholes by virtue of imagining that their intentions revolve around how what they are doing or not doing effects you in the first place, while they in turn are just as focused on their own perspective in life and perceive their choices and actions within their own reasons, which equally revolve around themselves, and if you in turn showcase or act upon the assumption that they are assholes (whether you say it or not), you are the one devaluing them, because just like you their world revolves how things effect them and they don't perceive it from your reasons (you thinking they are assholes) but from your effect on them (you making them feel like shit about themselves).
So how does it work? we're all great people in our own little bubbles and consequentially horrible on the outside? IMO the answer is that it works in the world of skulls. For ethics to have any meaning at all other then making you feel good about yourself, it has to include someone other then yourself, it has to include a shared medium in which they and their perspectives exist as much as yours does. You make a gamble on an objective reality, and in making that gamble you acknowledge that by it's nature you have no editorial authority. Emotional effects are real, physical phenomena, feeling of harm and pain or loss are real physical phenomena, happening within the skulls of other human beings just like you. You judge people for their actions and what the consequences of those are from all perspectives available to you.
And this is where personal agency becomes key - not in their own perspective of their own actions within their own little view of the world, but in the choices of how to shape the view in the first place and their willingness and capacity to ingulf the views of others into themselves, to reach out and understand perspectives different from our own and take what they mean as part of our own, most importantly in regards to their own actions and choices. To be willing to take stories where you are not the hero or the victim or the good guy or even particularly relevant, and accept your role in that story as something you've actually done in life, out there, in the world of skulls. Or in other words, sympathy.
The problem with narcissism is that it's very nature prevents doing just that. They are so terrified of that injury deep down - that thought there is something fundamentally wrong with who they are - that they can't view themselves in a negative light that for them indirectly implies that it's true.
When people imagine a narcissist they imagine someone so disgustingly douchey you'd never want to hang around, someone like toad's boss. Actually they can be very nice people, down right charming, they can care a great deal about making sure other people like them and being nice and appearing like a caring person is a fantastic strategy for that, and they'll generally believe it themselves to be pure angels, or with very concentrated points of guilt which "blame themselves" in much the same way a backhanded compliment compliments.
This is why - while I don't believe in bad intentions - I don't really believe in good people either. If you are a human adult, you've lived long enough to make not causing harm to others incredibly improbable. Good people aren't good people because of what they do, they are good people regardless of what they do.
It is the rest of us who are stuck with sympathy to the perspective of others we impacted in all the times we realized we were doing, have done or - once we become a bit competent at predicting the patterns - what we were momentarily going to do but realized before doing it, we were actually being massive assholes.
Meaning.. Yes, we are all assholes. And that's absolutely fantastic - we become assholes within our own narratives by virtue of having sympathy and empathy to all the perspectives from which we can be seen as assholes. When reality is telling you that you are been an asshole, and you are willing to listen to it. We are all assholes, and there is no better reason then this to be sympathetic.
[youtube]18y6vteoaQY&start=105[/youtube]
Fortunately, the cure for NPD was found a long time ago.
[youtube]18y6vteoaQY&start=105[/youtube]
Yes,
exactly.
Also - I didn't know time stamps work for embedded videos now. Cool.
The cure for assholeness is self evident.
Jim .. no, you don't have it. Not by a fucking long shot. I'm an asshole and you've always been helpful and nice to me. Well there was that one time... seriously. You're just a smart observant good person who deals with too much of the public on a daily basis.
People are assholes
absolutely, the vast majority are, but there are some good peeps too and you're one of them. Now fuck off.
Bah, you're all assholes, you hear me, all of ye.
Hmm... all of ye?... all of we?... all of me?... whatever.
Do you know the difference between an asshole and a prick? Well I'm going to tell you. Assholes are born that way, can't help it that is just the way they are. Pricks are the way they are, because they get off on it.
I'm an insufferable prick.
Well said, classic.
Agreed! :)
Agreed - he is amazing. [SIZE="1"][COLOR="white"]And anyone who doesn't text him back can't handle how amazing he is.[/COLOR][/SIZE]
I did not keep in contact with anyone at my old workplace, but I've heard through the grapevine that the narcissist has told someone he has decided not to renew his contract with the company.
I am 100% certain that this is narcissist code for: the company did not renew HIS contract. He has a chronic inability to admit any level of failure or weakness...
And his office, where I worked, will surely now close. Bullet dodged, for me I guess, but a handful of other people are going to lose jobs. Here is where the narcissist wreaks havoc, even if s/he is not directly impacting you. S/he's impacting other people. Pissing people off, playing games, doing things that are ultimately unproductive.
~
My current boss is a 6 out of 10 on the scale - maybe a 7, and it's annoying but you can work around it. It's funny, I was unable to see that 6-7 because my previous employer relationship was with a 10. I am disgusted with tech entrepreneurs and their narcissism and my next job I will most carefully vet for this very serious problem.
I hope.
Is there a standard scale with tells, or are you rating 1 to 10 of your perception of narcissism? I wonder how your fellow office dwellers would rate this guy from their perception? Or maybe don't recognize it for what it is, and just say he's an asshole.
It's just my own perception, s'true but I'm trying to go by the list on the first post of the thread.
But a cow-orker said narcissist about the guy, and I objected. This gent doesn't have a genuine personality disorder. He's just a little less emotionally connected. This is typical of high level tech people and certainly not a limit to success in the field (see Gates, Bill).
I would like my next boss to be something different, though. I'm exhausted.
Like Steve Jobs.
You'll have to be boss next time. Make 'em work in an open office while you patrol from the catwalk, and pick out slackers for whipping. :lol2:
Or hire all ladies. :blush:
Working with narcissists is really bad. What's really annoying is that they can be really good actors and love to get attention, which usually makes them climb the coorporate ladder quickly. The best is really to try to engage as little as possible and to never start a war with them, because they will use every (unethical) trick of the book to destroy you completely.