American exceptionalism
There's no more insulting phrase to Europeans!
I think I've got it though. Why did America become so powerful from 1935-2000?
Was it the rules, or was it the people?
It was the combination. A culture of fiercely independent, highly diverse, motivated dreamers combines with a market-oriented system to produce very high levels of productivity.
This in turn created a system wherein everyone was motivated to maximize human output
Now, many times I hear from my fellow Merkins that the country is somehow "broken" and will not return to its greatness
I think partly we are adjusting from a world where everyone is poor, to a world where everyone is middle class
It was nice having to only compete with 50 million office workers. I'm not sure how I will compete with 1 billion office workers
It seems like this is true of Japan as well. But what we are seeing is our cultures come to a pinnacle in an era when the rest of the world is coming online, with the advances of a century, combined with the marvelous advantage of general world wide peace.
How much we might achieve, when we do not have to stop every 20-30 years to destroy each other.
This might be relevant. It's a fictional show but it has many moments where I feel it means something. This is the opening scene. Stick with it. Will McAvoy, the character, caught a lot of flack for this 'outburst.' But it paved the way for the show to show real news, based on real news, despite objections over ratings.
Jeff Daniels. Not just Dumb or Dumber anymore.
And if you like what it has to say, I recommend The Newsroom. I've only bought Season 1, but I found it to be quite brilliant. I can't speak for the subsequent seasons, yet.
[YOUTUBE]1zqOYBabXmA[/YOUTUBE]
Oh, sorry, it'll make you go to the real youtube to watch it. Do or don't. I think it's a great scene.
How much we might achieve, when we do not have to stop every 20-30 years to destroy each other.
Don't be so quick to discard the R&D and manufacturing capacity created by the World Wars, which certainly spurred growth, wealth, and brought women into the work force.
I think partly we are adjusting from a world where everyone is poor, to a world where everyone is middle class.
Everyone?
Yeah there were like 5 billion ppl a few decades back and like 4 billion were poor
...general world wide peace...
:eyebrow:
:eyebrow:
To ravage, to slaughter, to usurp under false titles, they call empire; and where they make a desert, they call it peace. - Tacitus
The rules or the people? I go with the general willingness to do violence while blinding ourselves to the human cost.
I don't know, man. You gotta figure there is always some one fucking over a populous somewhere in the world at all times. Nowadays, our information travels so fast and far that if you really want to know who what and where, you can find it.
Just 20 years ago, that wasn't really true.
So, generally speaking, there has been a relative peace here these last 5 to 10? years.
I don't know that it call it peace... But yeah
Because of news and headlines and whatnot, you all may not be aware that the numbers of wars and the numbers of deaths per person from wars is WAY off from the previous 5 CENTURIES.
And that there hasn't been any war between major world powers in over 60 years and this is an extremely unlikely turn of events. Major world powers in a state of war has been normal up until recently.
Kristof / NY Times:
“Today we may be living in the most peaceable era in our species’ existence,” [Steven] Pinker writes, and he describes this decline in violence as possibly “the most important thing that has ever happened in human history.”
He acknowledges: “In a century that began with 9/11, Iraq, and Darfur, the claim that we are living in an unusually peaceful time may strike you as somewhere between hallucinatory and obscene.”
Still, even in a 20th century notorious for world war and genocide, only around 3 percent of humans died from such man-made catastrophes. In contrast, a study of Native-American skeletons from hunter-gather societies found that some 13 percent had died of trauma. And in the 17th century, the Thirty Years’ War reduced Germany’s population by as much as one-third.
Fascinating.
I hate how the media never gives any perspective on this stuff as they breathlessly report the latest carnage.
Yeah and most deaths now are happening in civil wars, not inter-state wars. 180,000 dead in Syria.
here's no more insulting phrase to Europeans!
Really? I've never thought of it as an insulting phrase. I don't know many people who do.
That's surprising, Dana. I mean, is it that the idea doesn't bother you, or that you've never heard it as a phrase?
Over here, it doesn't just mean "exceptionalism that happens to be done by an American," is the idea that we as a country are inherently exceptional, due to the circumstances of our founding and the ideals of our society. It's a very arrogant concept, that most Americans would nonetheless agree with.
Oh I've heard it. But it isn't a phrase that people find 'insulting'. There's more of a tendency to roll our eyes at it :p
The concept of Americans believing themselves and their nation to be superior and somehow chosen by God can be insulting - insasmuch as it has been used to justify some fairly shitty stuff - but most empires have their equivalent. We did when we were a 'great power'.
I think most Europeans are more concerned with what the US does, than they are with how Americans refer to themselves. Especially given tat most Europeans also have a fairly inflated sense of their nation's specialness and quite a lot look down on the US as brash and a bit full of its own importance.
but no -
There's no more insulting phrase to Europeans!
not even close.
snip--
I think most Europeans are more concerned with what the US does, --snip.
like when an American tells Europeans, and everyone else, what is most insulting to Europeans? :rolleyes:
All I know is when England got knocked out of the World Cup by Bitey, nobody at my company would switch to supporting the USA team. Even with me in the office asking them to. It was all "No I would never do that! Ha Ha!" I'm like what - we are you! Flag's red white and blue even! But no.
All I know is when England got knocked out of the World Cup by Bitey, nobody at my company would switch to supporting the USA team. Even with me in the office asking them to. It was all "No I would never do that! Ha Ha!" I'm like what - we are you! Flag's red white and blue even! But no.
*slight shrug*
Ok. Not sure what that has to do with American exceptionalism though...
Neither do I. :confused:
Switching allegiance after a defeat of your team is very bad form.
Neither do I. :confused:
Switching allegiance after a defeat of your team is very bad form.
Well - not so much that - I mean, once England's been knocked out fans usually choose another team to cheer for, in fairness. Sometimes it's one of the other British or Irish teams. Sometimes it's one of the African nations. Sometimes it
is America. It's kind of necessary really, given we usually get knocked out fairly fast :P It is rarely a team that we've played against though.
There is definitely a sort of *thinks* not anti-American attitude that's far too strong a way to put it - but a feeling among some that America is too full of its own sense of importance in the world that might play into UT's experience. But more likely when it comes to football I think there's a bit of an attitude of: oh so now you want to play proper football in a world contest do you? Having pretty much shunned it as a 'girl's/kids' game for most of the lifetime of the contest, whilst you superbowled between yourselves.
I think quite a lot of Europeans kind of look down on Americans a bit. Some Brits too. Silly really. I think for some there's a sense of Americans as not as sophisticated, and a bit brash and unpolished compared to the older cultures that you sprang from :p
But I don't ever recall anybody being 'offended' by the phrase (or even notion) of 'American exceptionalism'. It's not like you say it to us....it's the narrative you tell yourselves.
Right, importance. I figured the lack of support was due to that sort of "you lot became so big and powerful and we're tired of that and tired of the arrogance, now here's one thing the rest of the world has, to show you can't dominate everything."
But I must admit, I said nobody, that was a lie. On the day the US only lost to Germany 1-0 and went through (1-0 loss being an honor, especially after the Brazil creaming), one software engineer wore an impressive US flag shirt. One supporter out of about 50... but there was the one.
After the US, I support England in the Cup and would be very happy if they were successful in it. Perhaps when FIFA are honest brokers and England can host again. England 2166!
In the context of your work colleagues though: it is also equally likely they were taking the piss :P
Seriously, UT, you can't put youself into a Europeans shoes...mindset? Really? Just can't?
I know Pico! I have so many ridiculous human failings. I'm kind of a joke of a person.
What I really need is to have some broad around to sarcastically point out my many issues in the middle of a simple, enjoyable conversation with friends. Haven't had that since my divorce. Thanks for bringing it back.
Ha. Really? You went with the 'c' word? Your testosterone must be dipping pretty low, UT.
CUNT CUNT YOU'RE BEING A CUNT
I removed it after a few minutes of consideration, cunt
And if I wasn't a broad, how would you have taken my comment?
whilst you superbowled between yourselves.
This phrase amused me greatly. Thank you. :)
And if I wasn't a broad, how would you have taken my comment?
I'd be surprised that a man was acting all cunty. Then he would address his beef with me directly, as real men do, we would deal with it, and then we would go out and have beers.
Hmmmm....you still haven' t actually responded to the point of my comment. Instead you are still all butt hurt. Who is the cunt here?
I'm wondering where BigC is. I mean Big V. Aren't you going to come to the rescue of pico?
Not going to call Tony an asshole?
Huh.
There's nothing to address. I can't put myself into a Europeans shoes... mindset. I suck. You got me. Well played or whatever.
Actually I can, if I were in a Europeans shoes mindset, I would say, "Look at me, my numbers are bigger than all other shoe size numbers because oui oui paree had to have even bigger numbers than our metric system."
Well - not so much that - I mean, once England's been knocked out fans usually choose another team to cheer for, in fairness. Sometimes it's one of the other British or Irish teams. Sometimes it's one of the African nations. Sometimes it is America. It's kind of necessary really, given we usually get knocked out fairly fast :P It is rarely a team that we've played against though.
What the hell? Fair weather fans. Good grief, that's shameful. Do they buy shirts they can turn inside out with another team on the inside?
*shrugs* It's less that we switch 'support' - and more that, if you're going to watch a match it makes it more fun if you're cheering on one of the teams. If your team is no longer in the competition and there are still X number matches left - then you cheer on someone else's team.
The alternative would be to lose interest in the competition once your team is knocked out .
I sort of figured this thread may not go well, but i didnt think it'd end up with the yanks duking it out. Haha. I guess we all live and learn.
Even with me in the office asking them to..
Therein lies your problem
late to the party but I find the phrase/concept amusing rather than insulting. But I'm barely European any more, I'm told
Right, importance. I figured the lack of support was due to that sort of "you lot became so big and powerful and we're tired of that and tired of the arrogance, now here's one thing the rest of the world has, to show you can't dominate everything."
Again, it isn't that you
have become so big and powerful - it's that you think of yourselves as so important. It's the whole idea that America is just a bit too full of itself - a cardinal crime for the British. *
Like Monster says though - it's more of an amused eyeroll than offence.
Therein lies your problem
Absolutely. I don't know what American office culture is like, but British office culture, like the rest of British culture is founded primarily on piss taking. If you'd never let on that you wanted them to cheer for America, some of them probably would have.
* worth noting of course that alongside that is our own conviction that we are both much less cool and much naffer than America, but at the same time far superior to any other nation ;p
I'm wondering where BigC is. I mean Big V. Aren't you going to come to the rescue of pico?
Not going to call Tony an asshole?
Huh.
Well don't invoke it! Sheesh, you might as well stand in front of a mirror and say "Bloody Mary" three times!
Draw me like one of your French shoes.
Yabbut doesn't every nation feel it is Exceptional?
Yes, in some way or ways. But we more gooder at everything. :haha:
I think we just smell better.
Joining very late, with only a thought about Europeans and others despising North Americans ... yes, they do. Justified or not, they do. When in Canada, my son's Chinese friends were not allowed to visit/hang out with him because we were white NAms. And my MIL despised me as a NAm until the day she died.
I think every nation, every population with a sense of identity, sooner or later despises those who are 'other'. No actual knowledge is required. It's a hardwired human tendency. Some of us think we should try to rewire. It's not a job for the faint of heart.
My opinion is that the world is full of exceptionally stupid people. Even the US doesn't hold the patent on that formula.
Human populations ebb and flow. America is on the far side of its golden years. Cling to it if you must. Or embrace the rise of new world domination. Whatever floats your boat. I'll just hang about here being a dumb Aussie. ;)
Joining very late, with only a thought about Europeans and others despising North Americans ... yes, they do. Justified or not, they do. When in Canada, my son's Chinese friends were not allowed to visit/hang out with him because we were white NAms. And my MIL despised me as a NAm until the day she died.
I think every nation, every population with a sense of identity, sooner or later despises those who are 'other'. No actual knowledge is required. It's a hardwired human tendency. Some of us think we should try to rewire. It's not a job for the faint of heart.
How does the attitude of your son's Chinese friends having a problem with him as a white North American stand as proof of Europeans despising North Americans?
Sorry - but that just wouldn't happen with a European or Brit. you've just lumped us all together as 'Europeans and others' and then offered a highly culturally specific example of Chinese racism. Chinese people in the UK are notoriously cliquey.
My opinion is that the world is full of exceptionally stupid people. Even the US doesn't hold the patent on that formula.
Human populations ebb and flow. America is on the far side of its golden years. Cling to it if you must. Or embrace the rise of new world domination. Whatever floats your boat. I'll just hang about here being a dumb Aussie. ;)
[post=902839]
Right Said Ali[/post]
Right
said Ali
I'll just hang about being Aussie
While human populations ebb and flow
America's past its prime. new world domination's on the rise
The world is full of exceptionally stupid people
And so
We'll have another cupcake
Right
said Ali
I'll just hang about being Aussie
While human populations ebb and flow
Cling to it if you must, whatever floats your boat
The US doesn't hold the patent
And so
We'll have another cupcake ...
How does the attitude of your son's Chinese friends having a problem with him as a white North American stand as proof of Europeans despising North Americans?
Sorry - but that just wouldn't happen with a European or Brit. you've just lumped us all together as 'Europeans and others' and then offered a highly culturally specific example of Chinese racism. Chinese people in the UK are notoriously cliquey.
Sorry, I wasn't clear. The example of my son's Chinese friends wasn't meant to say anything about Europeans. My MIL was European (south, Mediterranean) and she despised NAms. It was common in her ethnic/cultural community. However, I've never met a Brit who looked down on North Americans.
All of that means little to nothing anyway; it's just one person's experience. I didn't mean to offend you, Dani. You're an inspiration when it comes to reason and nonjudgmental ethos.