Let's talk about Israel and Palestine...
They haven't posted it to their UK site yet, either.
Were you able to finally look at that video?
There's also this:
http://thebea.st/1tuG6dZMy friend Maya (a Brooklyn-born Jew that now lives in Ontario) wrote this to accompany that Daily Beast article I posted...her words on this subject pretty much reflect my thoughts on Israel and Palestine...except I'm not Jewish:
I love Jon Stewart. I don't talk about Israel, because I always end up crying. There's no right answer and it's all so effed up. Hamas uses human shields and appropriates supplies meant for civilian infrastructure, and Israel ghettoises the Gazans and bombs them. It's very difficult to be Jewish and not approve of Israel, so please, don't tell me who is right and who is wrong. I've spent 20 years thinking about the situation all I am is disgusted by everyone. No matter what, though, the Gazans - the innocent civilians, the disproportionate number of children - have it worse. They are trapped on every side, and by the very group that pretends to fight for them.
Not yet, but I will catch up on Daily Show soon:)
Excellent article!
Well we wouldn't have this problem if Joshua had taken care of things like he should have (cherem). Maybe it is time for another Joshua??
Lessons from the Spanish Inquisition apply.
Kill them all. God will know his own. Religion makes things so much easier to understand.
Well, ISIS destroyed Jonah's grave today, so...maybe a whale can handle things?
i've seen the shrine before. i don't understand why isis would destroy a muslim holy site. maybe they are practicing cherem. once complete, it would leave everyone like minded
Here's what I've learned.
After WWI, the UN sanctioned British mandate made two states: Transjordan Palestine to the east of the Jordan River, for the Arabs, now called Jordan, and The Jewish Homeland, west of the Jordan River. In the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, Jordan occupied The West Bank, annexing it in 1950 (interestingly a move that was condemned by the Arab League), and Egypt occupied The Gaza Strip. Leading up to the war wealthy Arab Palestinians fled the Jewish Homeland. After Israel declared itself a state, almost 400,000 Arab Palestinians fled or were forced out. These refugees ended up in Gaza or the West Bank. Egypt purposely did not annex Gaza, leaving it a kind of non-entity.
In the 1967 Six Day War, Israel occupied a large amount of it's neighbors' territory. After the war Israel returned most of the land, but Gaza and the West Bank were not part of the returned land.
The argument that Israel is occupying "Palestinian land" is wrong. Gaza and the West Bank were originally part of the Jewish Mandate, which Israel took back in 1967.
I believe Israel would cease operations if Hamas stopped firing rockets into Israel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_for_Palestine_(legal_instrument)
There's more to it though, between WW1 and 1947.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Partition_PlanRealistically, I think both sides are going to have to make sacrifices, if lasting peace is to occur: Israel will have to withdraw from the West Bank, Hamas will need to strongly modify their stance, the Palestinian people will have to change their tactics to nonviolence and the Arab World will have to recognize the right of Israel to exist.
...and the Arab World will have to recognize the right of Israel to exist.
And maybe their obligation to the Arab Palestinians
That's something that has always stuck with me too...you have folks that have literally grown-up in refugee camps. What kind of life is that?
Neither one is our friend and we should stay out of it.
I'll post this again.
[VIMEO]50531435[/VIMEO]
I really don't understand why anyone would want that area as a homeland. I believed the Israelites should have negotiated a better deal about 3,500 years ago
"There is no school tomorrow; there are no children left in Gaza."
[YOUTUBE]h7qFACSfd_k[/YOUTUBE]
An Israeli army officer who repeatedly shot a 13-year-old Palestinian girl in Gaza dismissed a warning from another soldier that she was a child by saying he would have killed her even if she was three years old.
The officer, identified by the army only as Captain R, was charged this week with illegal use of his weapon, conduct unbecoming an officer and other relatively minor infractions after emptying all 10 bullets from his gun's magazine into Iman al-Hams when she walked into a "security area" on the edge of Rafah refugee camp last month.
The official account claimed that Iman was shot as she walked towards an army post with her schoolbag because soldiers feared she was carrying a bomb.
But the tape recording of the radio conversation between soldiers at the scene reveals that, from the beginning, she was identified as a child and at no point was a bomb spoken about nor was she described as a threat. Iman was also at least 100 yards from any soldier.
Instead, the tape shows that the soldiers swiftly identified her as a "girl of about 10" who was "scared to death".
The tape also reveals that the soldiers said Iman was headed eastwards, away from the army post and back into the refugee camp, when she was shot.
At that point, Captain R took the unusual decision to leave the post in pursuit of the girl. He shot her dead and then "confirmed the kill" by emptying his magazine into her body.
The soldier in the watchtower radioed his colleagues after he saw Iman: "It's a little girl. She's running defensively eastward."
Operations room: "Are we talking about a girl under the age of 10?"
Watchtower: "A girl of about 10, she's behind the embankment, scared to death."
A few minutes later, Iman is shot in the leg from one of the army posts.
The watchtower: "I think that one of the positions took her out."
The company commander then moves in as Iman lies wounded and helpless.
Captain R: "I and another soldier ... are going in a little nearer, forward, to confirm the kill ... Receive a situation report. We fired and killed her ... I also confirmed the kill. Over."
Witnesses described how the captain shot Iman twice in the head, walked away, turned back and fired a stream of bullets into her body. Doctors at Rafah's hospital said she had been shot at least 17 times.
On the tape, the company commander then "clarifies" why he killed Iman: "This is commander. Anything that's mobile, that moves in the zone, even if it's a three-year-old, needs to be killed. Over."
The army's original account of the killing said that the soldiers only identified Iman as a child after she was first shot. But the tape shows that they were aware just how young the small, slight girl was before any shots were fired.
A Palestinian child is worth less than nothing to some IDF soldiers.
Not for all though - bless the ones who object.
The case came to light after soldiers under the command of Captain R went to an Israeli newspaper to accuse the army of covering up the circumstances of the killing.
A subsequent investigation by the officer responsible for the Gaza strip, Major General Dan Harel, concluded that the captain had "not acted unethically".
However, the military police launched an investigation, which resulted in charges against the unit commander.
Veteran BBC reporter, and now an official for UNRWA, Chris Gunness tries to file a report from Gaza after the sixth attack on a UN facility where Palestinian refugees had taken shelter:
[YOUTUBE]cu3lYK6OmMI[/YOUTUBE]
This video from 2011 sets out very clearly what Israel's actual aims are for Gaza. It's also a brilliant insight into the experiences of IDF soldiers.
[YOUTUBE]_Pw8m4azLcg[/YOUTUBE]
We're going to do this? OK
Veteran BBC reporter, and now an official for UNRWA, Chris Gunness
Was BBC, now UNRWA Gaza, how does that even happen? No wait, don't need to ask, he had the perfect resume to get that job. You'd think they would be vastly different job descriptions, but it turns out peddling an emotional narrative is what both those positions are about.
Because what if UNRWA had been doing its job? There would be a lot less for Mr Guinness to weep about. If you're not offended by the emotional appeal maybe you missed this bit of news.
UNRWA investigating 20 rockets found in one of its vacant schools
The United Nations is investigating how 20 rockets ended up in one of its vacant schools in Gaza, which are closed for summer vacation.
The rockets were found on Tuesday during a regular inspection by the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestinian refugees of its facilities, but information about the find was only released Thursday.
'Israel has ample evidence that Hamas is using UNRWA schools for terrorist purposes'
They don't even need the IDF to produce dead kids:
Italian Journalist Defies Hamas: ‘Out of Gaza Far From Hamas Retaliation: Misfired Rocket Killed Children in Shati’
Italian journalist Gabriele Barbati said he was able to speak freely about witnessing a Hamas misfire that killed nine children at the Shati camp, confirming the Israel Defense Forces version of events, but only after leaving Gaza, “far from Hamas retaliation.”
On Twitter, Barbati, Jerusalem Correspondent for Radio Popolare Milano, and a former reporter for Sky Italia, in Beijing, said, “Out of #Gaza far from #Hamas retaliation: misfired rocket killed children yday [yesterday] in Shati. Witness: militants rushed and cleared debris.”
He said, “@IDFSpokesperson said truth in communique released yesterday about Shati camp massacre. It was not #Israel behind it.”
On Tuesday, the IDF released aerial photos showing how a rocket from Gaza targeting Israel hit the Shati camp, run by the UNRWA, and Al Shifa Hospital, which has become a de-facto Hamas headquarters, against international rules of war.
The hospital was a de-facto Hamas HQ. Hamas bombed it. Reporters were on hand to cry. Narrative complete. Dead Gazans are Hamas' stock in trade and you are the consumer. Don't fall for it because you'll only produce more dead Gazans.
The first two links are from the Jerusalem Post. Hardly an unbiased source.
The third, with the Italian Journalist gives one story - other reporters on the ground give other stories. The Italian journalist's main evidence appears to be that militia fighters scrambled to clear debris. he claimed it was a hamas rocket. Others say they have cleared Israeli shrapnel from the site.
The IDF and Hamas both put out misinformation on a regular basis.
If you really think a BBC reporter would be automatically biased towards the Gazans then you don't watch much BBC. It is and has been for years, pro-Israel.
And just as an aside: if Hamas rockets have been found in UN facilities - that doesn't stop it being a war crime when the IDF deliberately target it whilst it is full of refugees. Hamas using civilians as human shields is appalling. Firing on the humans that make up that shield is also appalling.
that doesn't stop it being a war crime when the IDF deliberately target it whilst it is full of refugees
You (plural) can't convince me you're all that concerned with "war crimes" when you apply them so hard to one side. It's just a stick to beat Israel with. But it has a real result: actual war crimes are forgotten. It's all just playing politics now.
I'll post this again.
I watched it both times. It's well done.
It's got a strong point of view, and as an outsider, I identify with it a lot. But I don't know how much it helps resolve the current situation. Not that anything else does.
It seems that there's going to be a 72 hour ceasefire beginning at 8:00 a.m. local time Friday morning. We'll have to remember that, offer them 72 of something and they'll go for it.
The officer, identified by the army only as Captain R, was charged this week with illegal use of his weapon, conduct unbecoming an officer and other relatively minor infractions after emptying all 10 bullets from his gun's magazine into Iman al-Hams when she walked into a "security area" on the edge of Rafah refugee camp last month.
...and other relatively minor infractions
or. ...and other, relatively minor infractions...?
I got stuck there.
That Guardian piece,
Gaza: how international law [COLOR="Purple"]could[/COLOR] work to punish war crimes
We see this kind of theorizing often, in both traditional and electronic media.
But the key is the word "could", which means it's possible but everyone, including the author, knows it won't.
For shits and giggles let's say the ICC investigates, ruminates, and castigates.
Israel says fuck you.
Now what, send an officer of the court to handcuff Israel and bring them to justice? Tell them to pick up bread, milk, and Putin on their way back. :rolleyes:
Despite all the civilized trappings like the U.N., ICC, and various international do-gooder groups, the reality remains, what you're powerful enough to take and hold, is yours. Maybe even more so today with most people wary of starting WW III
Oh, the humanity ... must've stepped on the edge of a tunnel ... launch another offensive!
A
newspaper article published in Saudi Arabia by a writer with ties to the Saudi royals, spells out why the Saudis want peace between Israel and Gaza.
The growing power of the Shiite axis is threatening the kingdom and its Sunni allies. After 1,300 years of Muslim history in which the Sunnis controlled the Shiites, this balance is about to change.
The Shiite axis of Iran, Iraq (the al-Maliki government, Syria (the Alawites) and Lebanon (Hezbollah) is maintaining its strength. In addition, the Shiite-Zaydi tribes of the Khotis in Yemen are threatening the Saudi Arabia's huge southern border and are also supported by Iran. The worst threat to the Saudis is the Iranian nuclear race which could destroy them.
The strangest of bedfellows, indeed. :eyebrow:
We're going to do this? OK
Three years ago I'd have been all-in. These days I just can't do it. I don't know where my disinterest in the argument has come from. I don't even know if that's a good thing.
Is it because it's just so boring? The same old bullshit in the Middle East?
Terrorists are terrorists and Israel is reacting justly, but overreacting yet again. Bastards kill one of ours, and we kill 100 of theirs.
They both suck.
In the latest round with Lebanon, Israel didn't crush Hezbollah, so Hezbollah counted that as a victory. Now Israel is doing the same thing with Hamas. Is Hamas going to consider this a victory?
What was Israel's goal? Did they find all the tunnels? Did they seize all the rockets? Did they assassinate all the Hamas leaders? Is the mission accomplished yet? One thing they did for sure is drive home the lesson in another generation of Palestinian youths that Israel is the enemy.
Insert Foot's video here.
Maybe. But maybe it's more of a general thing. My bosses are slightly political at work and I don't lean in exactly the same direction they do, and I just want to figure out a way to get along and still earn their favor.
Also it seems to me that, in life, nobody has asked my opinion about much of this stuff, so maybe I should not be so gung-ho about spouting it. I dunno.
in life, nobody has asked my opinion about much of this stuff
Exactly, and when the butcher, baker, or candlestick maker spouts off on this stuff, I exit as quickly as possible.
... What was Israel's goal? Did they find all the tunnels? Did they seize all the rockets? Did they assassinate all the Hamas leaders? Is the mission accomplished yet? One thing they did for sure is drive home the lesson in another generation of Palestinian youths that Israel is the enemy. ...
If Israel was a person, it would be classified as a professional victim. There can be good money and, more importantly to some, fame in being a professional victim. It's a trade that can be plied for generations even though the capability to extricate itself exists.
"it would be classified as a professional victim"
Agreed.
Israel shoulda 'got up early and went and killed them first'.
Interesting comment piece in today's Guardian (US edition)
Late last week, the White House decried Israel’s attack on a UN school in Gaza as “totally unacceptable” and “totally indefensible”, then proceeded to approve $225m in funding for its Iron Dome. On Monday, the US state department went further, calling the airstrikes upon a UN school “disgraceful” – and yet America provides Israel with more than $3.1bn every year, restocking the ability of the Israel Defense Force (IDF) to hit more schools, and to wage total war against an imprisoned people, because of their nationality.
American taxpayers should not be paying for this. And the western world should stop rejecting serious inquiries about Israel’s moral inconsistencies, or allow it to benefit from cognitive dissonance and information overload amid the current crisis in Gaza.
There is a land grab going on. The Israeli prime minister, Binjamin Netanyahu, has shrunk Gaza’s habitable land mass by 44%, with an edict establishing a 3km (1.8-mile) buffer zone, a “no-go” zone for Palestinians – and that’s quite significant, because a good part of Gaza is only 3 to 4 miles wide. Over 250,000 Palestinians within this zone must leave their homes, or be bombed. As their territorial space collapses, 1.8m Gazans now living in 147 square miles will be compressed into 82 square miles.
Gaza’s entire social and physical infrastructure of housing, hospitals, places of worship, more than 130 of its schools, plus markets, water systems, sewer systems and roads are being destroyed. Under constant attack, without access to water, sanitary facilities, food and medical care, Gazans face an IDF-scripted apocalypse.
With Gaza’s land mass shrinking due to Israeli military action, it’s about time someone asked: What is the end game? Three weeks ago, Moshe Feiglin, deputy speaker of the Knesset, called for Gaza to “become part of sovereign Israel and will be populated by Jews. This will also serve to ease the housing crisis in Israel.”
Israel has a housing crisis? After the “no-go” buffer zone is evacuated, there will be 21,951 Palestinians per square mile in Gaza, while Israel’s population density stands at 964 persons per square mile.
Deputy Speaker Feiglin wants the Palestinians in Gaza to lose all of their land. One must not assume that Mr Feiglin or his Likud faction speak for the main government actors like Prime Minister Netanyahu. After all, Knesset politics are complex and divergent. But since Gaza has just lost control of that 44% of its land, it may also be time to ask: does the establishment of that 3km zone represent the unfolding of a larger plan? Is that the end game?
Read the rest here:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/05/gaza-buffer-zone-dennis-kucinichSo if the general understanding is that no one really has a legitimate claim to the land, as illustrated in foot's video, then the traditional rule is whoever can hold it keeps it. Let them go at it.
If you still live in Gaza, you're an idiot who deserves to die. If you think that living in Jerusalem near the West Bank is better than living in New York City, where there are almost twice as many Jews as there are in Jerusalem anyway, you're an idiot who deserves to die. Anyone intelligent would move themselves and their family the fuck away from that part of the world. Anyone who is still there at this point is driven purely by ideology, on both sides, and they can all kill each other for all I care.
And frankly, yes, if we're going to support one side or the other, I'd vote for supporting the side that doesn't also hate the Great Satan America. We've had--currently have, in fact--far worse bedfellows. I'll reserve my outrage for when actual innocents die, which includes no one over there. (And yes, the children on both sides are in theory innocent, but stupid parents have always gotten their children killed. Better for the gene pool that way.)
Late last week, the White House decried Israel’s attack on a UN school in Gaza as “totally unacceptable” and “totally indefensible”, then proceeded to approve $225m in funding for its Iron Dome. On Monday, the US state department went further, calling the airstrikes upon a UN school “disgraceful” – and yet America provides Israel with more than $3.1bn every year, restocking the ability of the Israel Defense Force (IDF) to hit more schools, and to wage total war against an imprisoned people, because of their nationality.
Dana, Iron Dome is anti-missile missiles to intercept Hamas rockets. The rest is indefensible, Israel is using the US, and has been since day one.
Yeah, I know about Iron Dome. I thought it was a really useful thing and might give Israel some breathing space to engage in other methods than wholesale slaughter. With the Iron Dome system in place, Hamas is effectively almost neutralized as a threat to Israeli citizens. Three weeks and thousands of rocket attacks and only three civilian deaths - more people die from road traffic accidents.
It's one of the reasons I find their current actions so deplorable and incomprehensible. They don't have to do this to defend their people. When Hamas joined with Fatah and agreed that they could live with a two state solution that no longer called for the destruction of Israel - the time was ripe for a real solution.
Hamas is a toothless enemy. They are the knight in Monty Python's Holy Grail - on the floor with no arms or legs, shouting at their opponent to fight them and threatening to bite their ankles.
I have friends who have spent time in Gaza and the West Bank (and Israel as it happens). There is a lot of misinformation on both sides. But there is also an undeniable truth: what is happening in Gaza is a massacre. Whatever Israel's right to self defence I do not believe it extends to the slaughter of thousands of civilians, the displacement of hundreds of thousands more and the effective imprisonment of the entire Gazan population.
And @ Clod: as for the idea that anybody who stays in Gaza deserves to die: they cannot leave. That's why people have started referring to it as an open air prison. They have no choice but to stay. They are boxed in by land, air and sea.
I wasn't going to come in here again. But I saw you'd (bruce) responded and I usually find that you have a very balanced view of these things. I feel much better for having read your post. I'm probably going to stay out of here though from now. It just makes me feel like crying.
[youtube]nqS2Cqcp6r8[/youtube]
Yeah, I know about Iron Dome. I thought it was a really useful thing and might give Israel some breathing space to engage in other methods than wholesale slaughter.
If Israel wanted to engage in wholesale slaughter in Gaza there would be no Gazans. (And they would be using much different tools for the job.)
With the Iron Dome system in place, Hamas is effectively almost neutralized as a threat to Israeli citizens.
It's not Hamas. It's the people sending missiles to Hamas.
And the current level of defense works, I mean, as long as you're fine getting shot at as long as the bullets don't kill you. But it'll only work until better missiles get there. Of course one could prevent better missiles from entering Gaza and in fact
the sea blockade has prevented much more serious munitions from getting through.
Oh, but you are against the blockade!!
Do you think more Gazans are gonna not die if Tel Aviv loses 10 city blocks? Do you want actual wholesale slaughter of Gazans? Because that's how you get actual wholesale slaughter of Gazans. Not to mention worldwide economic upheaval, which in effect kills millions.
Iran is giving Hamas munitions. Why, if Hamas is so ineffective as you say? Well the Shiite world is projecting its international power by giving money, power, and arms to the locals. Are you cool with that?
Not asking if you're cool with arming the locals, everybody does that. I mean would you prefer to live in a Shiite world? At the very least you would be required, Inquisition-style, to convert.
And @ Clod: as for the idea that anybody who stays in Gaza deserves to die: they cannot leave. That's why people have started referring to it as an open air prison. They have no choice but to stay. They are boxed in by land, air and sea.
They're surrounded! On all three sides... out of... four.
I wasn't going to come in here again. I'm probably going to stay out of here though from now.
I won't have it. You get right back in here and argue with me young lady.
They're surrounded! On all three sides... out of... four.
Yeah but the fourth is down and the Israelis got real pissy about the Pals digging. :haha:
Do you think more Gazans are gonna not die if Tel Aviv loses 10 city blocks?
That is hyperemotional reasoning. Hamas tiny rockets are lucky to even find the Tel Aviv border let alone take out 10 blocks. Only reason Israelis are not massacring Palestinians is world reaction. Israel fears delegitimisation. Israel (Likud - not Israel in general) is killing as many Palestinians as they can get away with.
They took out all Gaza electrical supplies. They destroyed water desalination plants. How to kill as many Palestinians as possible without completely destroying Israel's international credibility? Create a slow death that can be blamed on failed plants.
Throughout the world, condemnation of Israel has increased. As expected of a country run by extremists. In the 1960s, American news services did not even have any news bureaus in Arab countries. Peter Jennings was one of the first to correct that glaring mistake. Slowly Americans are learning the other side of this story. It was never about Jews verse Palestinians. Story includes wacko extremist Likud, Hamas, and many more moderate and disempowered groups.
It was no accident that Likud called for the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin because he participated in the Oslo Accords. Zionism could not accept peace that would undermine their theft of the West Bank. Zionism labels all Palestinians as evil since that creates hate to empower extremists.
70% of America's 7 million Jews now support an Israeli-Palestinian two state solution. While Likud has moved even more right wing extremists to belligerently oppose it. American Jews are increasingly critical of Israel's rising religious extremist nationalism. Due to extremists such as Likud, politics is now driven by a lie that says God gave this land to the Jews.
Most in Gaza are not Hamas. Most are Fatah. However wacko extremist Hamas holds the power. Likud, another wacko extremist organization, assumes anyone in Gaza must be evil and murdered. The UN notes examples of Hamas violating UN safe zones. But most criticism has been strongest, more often, and directed at Israel for intentionally shelling and bombing what Israel knew to be UN safe zones. Israelis did a similar murder of UN observers from Austria, China, Finland and Canada on the Lebanon border - knowing full well where these UN observers were located. The observation post had ten foot letters UN. Israeli army still shelled that observation post *accidentally* 14 separate times in one day. Same country also accidentally attacked the USS Liberty with bombers and then with torpedo boats.
Slowly even liberal Jews in America are withdrawing support for Israel. Because Likud’s open contempt of Arabs is increasing. A recent BBC global poll (before Gaza) reported that negative views of Israel are now twice as large as positive views.
And still, some in the US refuse to admit the problem. A recent NBC News report detailed the air attack and murder of four Palestinians kids playing on a beach. Little different from what Americans did from helicopters by firing on Vietnamese farmers just for fun. NBC management disliked the report and reassigned their reporter. However a major social media campaign against NBC got this NBC reporter reinstated. We still have problems getting the full story due to some in network management.
Hamas is not any better. A Saudi foreign minister defined it best. Just ignore Hamas. Hamas is empowered when someone foolishly attacks all other Palestinians. Had Israel used trade and interchange with the majority of moderate Palestinians, then Hamas would be powerless. But Likud assumes all Gazans are Hamas. Even the murder of four kids while playing football on a beach is considered acceptable. Extremists (ie Hamas) increase power when enemy extremists (Likud) empower them.
Hamas has almost no friends in the Arab world. Egypt has no love of Hamas extremists who even attacked Egyptian troops in the Sinai. Saudis also have no love for Hamas. But Likud empowers Hamas by exercising contempt for and harming a majority (Fatah) in Gaza.
An extremist Knesset even banned its only Arab representative for representing the minority view and advocating civil rights.
An increasing anti-extremist movement among Israeli Jews is demanding civil rights for all non-Jews. Likud considers this a strategic threat to Israel. Their contempt for civil rights creates Likud's greatest fear - delegitimisation. A problem becoming obvious when the World Conference on Racism in 2001 defined Zionism as racism. We know what Zionism wants - the West bank. Send Palestinians back where they came from - an extremist Israeli view similar to 1960s American racism.
Europe is well ahead of America in acknowledging this Likud problem. Especially when Israel (Likud) summoned all European ambassadors to protect Jews in their countries. Then an extremist and former head of Shin Bet (Israel's intelligent agency) warned that Israeli force would be used to protect expatriate Jews. Only N Korea would consider that acceptable behavior.
This is not a nation of moderates. As Israel moves more extremist right, the world is learning how contemptuous Israel is even for civil rights.
Had Israel been lead by moderates, then Hamas would have been powerless. Most Arab nations also want that. Hamas has support only because Israel has been so right wing Likud extremist.
Hamas tiny rockets are lucky to even find the Tel Aviv border let alone take out 10 blocks.
Did you read the article I linked? Iran was shipping them missiles that have a 125 mile range.
...soldiers carried out a preliminary inspection of the ship and found several dozen advanced Syrian M-302 missiles, with a range of up to 200 kilometers (125 miles) and a payload of up to 170 kilograms (375 pounds). The missiles were hidden in shipping containers also carrying sacks of concrete.
Did you read the article I linked? Iran was shipping them missiles that have a 125 mile range.
And have trouble hitting their targets.
In D-Day, nine ships launched rockets at the beaches. Not one single rocket hit its target. Rockets without a sophisticated guidance system hit the wide spans of nothing. So many rockets. Near zero Israeli deaths. She posted the damning fact. Those rockets are mostly a nuisance. Worry more about deaths by out of control automobile drivers. At least they can hit something.
Global poll from the BBC. Likud violence means twice as many in the world now think negatively about Israel. The wor;d did not prmote hate. Likud did - so much as to even call for and get the assassination of Rabin. And the useless war against Hezbollah in Lebanon. Likud did everything possible to even restart Intafada 2. Since hate even justifies the occupation of the West Bank - stealing of land.
UT was talking about rockets that were intercepted before they reached Hamas.
tw is talking about rockets they all ready have and rockets in WW II.
:rolleyes:
An article about the very small opposition to the war within Israel, from the Guardian:
Gideon Levy doesn't want to meet in a coffee bar in Tel Aviv. He is fed up with being hassled in public and spat at, with people not willing to share the table next to him in restaurants. And now he is fed up with the constant presence of his bodyguards, not least because they too have started giving him a hard time about his political views. So he doesn't go out much any more and we sit in the calm of his living room, a few hundred yards from the Yitzhak Rabin Centre. Rabin's assassination by a rightwing Orthodox Jew in 1995 is itself a sobering reminder of the personal cost of peacemaking in Israel.
In his column in Haaretz, Levy has long since banged the drum for greater Israeli empathy towards the suffering of the Palestinians. He is a well known commentator on the left, and one of the few prepared to stick his head above the parapet. Consequently, he is no stranger to opposition from the right. But this time it is different. Yariv Levin, coalition chairman of the Likud-Beytenu faction in the Knesset, recently called for him to be put on trial for treason – a crime which, during wartime, is punishable by death.
"It is time we stop regarding despicable phenomena like this with tolerance," Levin said of Levy. Soon after that interview Eldad Yaniv, a former political adviser to ex-prime minister Ehud Barack, wrote on his Facebook page: "The late Gideon Levy. Get used to it."
Read the rest here, it's really interesting.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/06/gaza-israel-movement-that-dare-not-speak-its-nameQuestions...
How long has Israel been in-conflict with its enemies/neighbors/etc.?
How long has Israel (or Israel's opposition) held the capacity/capability to decisively, irrevocably, end conflict (by way of, for example, turning an area into glassy, radioactive, desert)?
Why hasn't Israel (or Israel's opposition) ended (the) conflict?
Answers:
on and off since 1948
Classified
Israel has attempted to make peace with her neighbors many times. Israel has made one concession after another while their enemies have made NONE and only use cease-fires and peace agreements to rearm and redeploy before attacking anew.
...I'll be direct.
If this...
"Israel has attempted to make peace with her neighbors many times. Israel has made one concession after another while their enemies have made NONE and only use cease-fires and peace agreements to rearm and redeploy before attacking anew."
...is the case, then why doesn't Israel decisively, irrevocably, end the conflict when *"according to the Natural Resources Defense Council and the Federation of American Scientists, Israel likely possesses around 75–200 nuclear weapons."?
*from wiki
They would get in trouble.
Plus, as a practical matter, the Gaza strip is only 8 miles wide at its widest, so how are you going to nuke that without nuking your own bordering country, and the winds from the Gaza strip blow across Israel.
It would be like NYC nuking Hoboken.
you say that like it's a bad thing.
"They would get in trouble."
Already are and have been for a looooong time, it seems.
#
"Plus, as a practical matter, the Gaza strip is only 8 miles wide at its widest, so how are you going to nuke that without nuking your own bordering country, and the winds from the Gaza strip blow across Israel."
Low yield, kiloton-rated, atomics...yeah, you get cancer in 20 years, but mebbe that twenty years is relatively peaceful...mebbe you wouldn't need to retreat to a bunker every other day.
#
"It would be like NYC nuking Hoboken."
"you say that like it's a bad thing."
HA!
The unwritten rule is you can only be a nuclear nation if you only use the weapon as a deterrent against other nukes. Nobody will stand for it any other way.
Incredible, absolutely incredible, the nature of some of the commentary on this topic. Some of you need to reflect a little on your thoughts before you post. OK, this is an emotive subject, but the suggestion that a people who have no passports and who are blockaded into an ever narrowing strip of land should leave or die is ludicrous. So is the idea that any form of nuclear solution is either conceivable or justifiable.
It takes a very small amount of internet searching to see what the latest Israeli incursion is doing. Wiping out tunnels? So there are tunnels under farms are there, as farms and orchards have been been decimated through Israeli bombing? The economy and fundamental infrastructure that supports nearly 2 million people herded into an ever decreasing and already small area of land is being is being systematically destroyed - homes, utilities, services, everything.
If we had to rely purely Israeli reporting to reach our conclusions I could maybe possibly understand the severity of some of the comments being made. But the web gives us the opportunity to view from many sides. Not everything that comes from another source is propaganda. We are given too many reports to draw that conclusion. Western governments commenting that the situation is 'unacceptable' do nothing to convince the people of Gaza, and obviously Hamas, that we care - certainly not when this is backed up by million dollar and ongoing military support for Israel.
No innocent person deserves to die - this should be the fundamental driver behind anything the West decides to do to help resolve a situation that it is abundantly clear the two factions directly involved cannot. Take this as your foundation and then ensure that everything else you do observes this overriding instruction.
It may be helpful to keep in mind that 1.) I also said every Israeli who has decided to stay there deserves to die, and 2.) I am, for better or worse, not consulted on matters of national policy, nor do I think I should be. I'm just expressing why I, and many others, find it impossible to give a damn about that part of the world anymore.
Noted, but I disagree with your views. And your last remark in particular saddens me, but I'll be objective in my response. If you and many others don't give a damn, then why do you show no concern that such a large trenche of the money your government takes from you in taxes is given over to military support for Israel? Why give millions of dollars to a cause you don't give a damn about? Surely, that expenditure should be given to something you do care about, shouldn't it?
Sure. But my government spends money in tons of ways I don't agree with. I actually believe that it's all the high-stakes caring that forces us to continue to pick a side. If more people felt as I do, the American government might not feel compelled to weigh in after all.
blockaded into an ever narrowing strip of land should leave or die is ludicrous
We can try to talk about this topic. I hope we can. But nobody has really said what you said they said so it's not a conversation yet.
Is it your understanding that this blockade is meant to keep things and people
in?
Do you have a take on the blockade preventing long-range missiles from Gaza? Do you believe that happened? Would you permit that?
It takes a very small amount of internet searching to see what the latest Israeli incursion is doing. Wiping out tunnels? So there are tunnels under farms are there, as farms and orchards have been been decimated through Israeli bombing?
Too bad they don't have any greenhouses!
If we had to rely purely Israeli reporting to reach our conclusions I could maybe possibly understand the severity of some of the comments being made. But the web gives us the opportunity to view from many sides. Not everything that comes from another source is propaganda.
Oh, guess what: not everything out of Israel either. I mean unless the Times, the Guardian, the Sun and the Mail are all identical in some form in their reporting on British issues. You may safely read the Jerusalem Post from time to time without getting some form of infection. It's a major newspaper written by a sophisticated, cultured, western people who think like us. There's even debate about what to do, as Israeli opinion is not uniform.
But you're suggesting ignorance is the cause of our disagreement. What do we do when people disagree with us? #1, we think they are ignorant of the facts. #2, we think they are idiots. #3, we think they are evil.
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I'm glad you are only expressing #1. If tell you that I've studied the matter in great detail and have collected a ton of facts, please do not move on to #2 where I don't have the intellectual capacity to interpret them. That's a bad time for me.
No innocent person deserves to die - this should be the fundamental driver behind anything the West decides to do to help resolve a situation that it is abundantly clear the two factions directly involved cannot.
Were you aware of this? The dying Gazans, they're almost all young males. Which can't possibly be true if you believe Israel is targeting, like, everyone:
http://time.com/3035937/gaza-israel-hamas-palestinian-casualties/
The demographic analysis of the fatalities in the Gaza conflict has limitations. It can’t identify who is or isn’t a combatant. But the spike in fatalities among males starting in their late teens and peaking in their early to mid-twenties, and the divergence of the pattern of fatalities from the demographic pattern of the population, raises considerable doubt about claims that as many as 75% or more of the fatalities are non-combatants. In light of evidence—provided by groups that monitor Arabic language media (like the Middle East Media Research Institute)—that Hamas has instructed Gazans to describe anyone killed as a civilian, journalists have a responsibility to convey this uncertainty to their audiences and not present figures provided by Hamas and Hamas-affiliated sources as unqualified fact.
Reported by an American non-Jew, if that's something you think is important.
... No innocent person deserves to die ...
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Why give millions of dollars to a cause you don't give a damn about?
They do, I don't.
Surely, that expenditure should be given to something you do care about, shouldn't it?
Caring about misused tax money, does not equate with concern about Mideast politics. If I want something to get pissed about, how about the three pallets, each containing $144,000,000 of my taxes, in US $100 bills, that the US Air Force flew to the Iraqi government, and then disappeared. You seem to think the US is a democracy. Wrong it's an oligarchy, and I'm not one of the oligs. I can effect this shit about as much as you can prevent the Queen from claiming all the swans as her own.
Since Pop bought a TV in 1952 I've been aware of the constant turmoil in the middle east. Like watching one of the
mudpots at Yellowstone Park. There's a lot going on down deep but it's opaque, so you only see the bubbles as they rise to the surface. Thrown out? Driven out? Trying to escape? We'll never know why, only that they rise, then self destruct leaving nothing but stench behind.
Not one of the countries over there is our(US) friend. None of the people over there are my friend, and I suspect half of them would kill me in a heartbeat. As for,
Oh, the humanity, the children, think of the children, I'll save my empathy for the other billions of people struggling against nature,(flood, famine, disease) rather than these fools with their generational blood feuds.
Just back after a long day. I haven't even begun to digest the various replies to my post, and with an early start tmrw, I will have to leave doing so until tmrw afternoon, when I will have free time again, so will respond then.
The more I think about it, the more I think it's just a cultural thing. The US has decided to view it this way, Europe has decided to view it this other way. Kinda sorta. And I know I have been borderline shocked before, by certain cultural differences in political philosophy between the continents. It's just a "we grew up like that" kind of thing.
At this point: All I'm seein' are folks interested in profiting from their 'oppressed' status goin' at it with folks interested in foistin' up their demented religion on the world.
To hell with both sides...to hell with those who advocate for either side.
I'm finding it hard to keep up with this thread. Maybe that's a reflection of how convoluted the problem is, or, perhaps more likely, how old I am getting! Trying to disentangle who is right and who is wrong based on what has happened in the past seems pointless to me. If we go back far enough you can blame us Brits. We're pretty good at carving up other people's land - look what we did in Ireland and we've only relatively recently extricated ourselves from the mess that caused. Still we did resolve it to a degree that has held firm for a good few years now, so there should always be hope. To move forward in such situations, though, you have to draw a line on what has gone before, however unpalatable that may seem.
I was essentially trying to get across some simplified messages or observations if you like. For me, human life is too precious to permit to be wasted. I know that's a rather naive sounding thing to say given the atrocities that are created throughout the world, but where we, Western governments that is, have the ability to influence a situation then I believe we should do so. And it seems that maybe we do have the ability in terms of what is happening in Gaza, as we control the purse strings at least on one side. The statement I made that 'no innocent person deserves to die' is my view of what the West should have as its overriding objective, such that any strategy it devises or action it takes to try to resolve the situation should only proceed provided that it upholds this objective.
I think it's the right one, if you don't I'm happy to be convinced otherwise, but I'm looking for arguments as to how to stop what is happening continuing - and so views that there is a nuclear solution or that 'if you still live in Gaza, you're an idiot who deserves to die' aren't satisfactory solutions because, whether they were seriously meant or just expressions of frustration with the situation, they don't uphold the overriding objective that 'no innocent person deserves to die'.
Can the ordinary people influence their governments? Well, maybe they can. There's evidence that we are having some success at doing this over here, certainly on a domestic level, and this is mainly down to a small number of organisations that use the scope that current technology permits to provide a platform for people to join together to voice their disapproval. When the voice of disapproval grows big enough, loud enough then, perhaps surprisingly (perhaps not given it doesn't want to alienate its electorate) our government has been seen to act in ways that show that it does apparently listen.
I know I haven't addressed individual criticisms of my earlier post. I certainly don't think people here are ignorant so I will certainly apologise for creating that impression. I'm not sure what would be achieved by countering every point really, but I will be back on some, just not tonight. Who exactly was it who said that you will have more time on your hands once you reach retirement age? Certainly hasn't headed in this direction yet!
Thank you Cyc, if nothing else we will get further if we are adult about it and all have respect for each other. Maybe we can find a better way to talk about it.
For me, human life is too precious to permit to be wasted.
That is absolutely the primary goal. Minimization of death.
Coming close behind is maintaining and promoting the
idea that human life is too precious to permit to be wasted. It'll be simple to do when everyone believes it.
~
I thought about your earlier post and there is one more item I must take issue with. You believe that Israel would strategically bomb crop fields. This idea is ridiculous on its face for no other reason than no army in the world would waste expensive munitions bombing dirt. But what you should also know is that Israel provides almost all the fresh water for Gaza, and if it doesn't want Gaza growing crops, or if it wants to maximize suffering, it can merely shut the water off for a while.
If you saw images or video of dirt being bombed I will guarantee you that the rockets that rained down on the crops were fired by Hamas. Like all modern militaries, Israel actually tries to aim their bombs. Hamas points in the general direction and lets Allah do the aiming part. Their bombs often hit their own territory and/or citizens.
If we go back far enough you can blame us Brits.
Long before Brits, or Britain for that matter.
We're pretty good at carving up other people's land...
The main two reasons for the carving was to reward important people, and separate enemies from each other. Now people are mobile, the enemies can't be separated that easily.
For me, human life is too precious to permit to be wasted.
I certainly approve of that sentiment, but as I sit here reading about/pondering, the fucked up state of the middle east, nobody is kicking in my door. I'm reasonably certain there won't be anything coming through the roof, and I'm brazenly sitting right next to a window.
...but where we, Western governments that is, have the ability to influence a situation then I believe we should do so.
Those days are gone, especially with the cold war heating up. No unified Mom & Dad against petulant terrorist, they're playing off divorced Mom against Dad.
And it seems that maybe we do have the ability in terms of what is happening in Gaza, as we control the purse strings at least on one side.
The somewhere between $3 and $8 Billion the US gives Israel every year? In reality it's like the birthday card from grandma with $10 tucked in it. That money is appreciated, and will be used, but doesn't mean a tinkers damn to my lifestyle. It's more important as a reassurance that despite how I've fucked up, grandma still loves me.
The statement I made that 'no innocent person deserves to die' is my view of what the West should have as its overriding objective, such that any strategy it devises or action it takes to try to resolve the situation should only proceed provided that it upholds this objective.
That's a tough one for leaders that routinely write off millions of people as simply collateral damage in the control the empire game.
I think it's the right one, if you don't I'm happy to be convinced otherwise, but I'm looking for arguments as to how to stop what is happening continuing - and so views that there is a nuclear solution or that 'if you still live in Gaza, you're an idiot who deserves to die' aren't satisfactory solutions because, whether they were seriously meant or just expressions of frustration with the situation, they don't uphold the overriding objective that 'no innocent person deserves to die'.
I agree it's the right goal, and I hope those statements are from frustration over this never ending story, but then reality pops up and says, how? That's when people revert to the nuke and move quips as an escape from the migraine inducing puzzle.
Can the ordinary people influence their governments? Well, maybe they can. There's evidence that we are having some success at doing this over here,..
I look at what it took to get us out of Vietnam, at a time when the "people" still had some clout, the politicians still had to placate the masses to get reelected, and there weren't eleventy factions to align.
We've had relatively small groups (Sierra Club, Green Peace, Republicans:p:) in which the supporters aren't offending their neighbors with picket signs, but using lobbyists and the courts to force big changes.
I know I haven't addressed individual criticisms of my earlier post.
Disagreement is not criticism.
I certainly don't think people here are ignorant...
Are to. :p:
...so I will certainly apologise for creating that impression.
Never apologize.
I'm not sure what would be achieved by countering every point really,...
Don't you hate when people do that? :haha:
...but I will be back on some, just not tonight.
Sounds like a threat. :unsure:
Who exactly was it who said that you will have more time on your hands once you reach retirement age? Certainly hasn't headed in this direction yet!
Some sadistic lying bastard. After you retire, you slow down and the world speeds up, until you've fallen and you can't get up.
That is absolutely the primary goal. Minimization of death.
Coming close behind is maintaining and promoting the idea that human life is too precious to permit to be wasted. It'll be simple to do when everyone believes it.
That's more difficult than it sounds. At first it's like, well of course, who would not agree with that. Then it's, well, those crazy ______ terrorists. And those stupid _______ worshipers. Oh, the filthy ________ bastards. Etc, etc, ad infinitum.
Hey, maybe if we could get at least the major religions to condemn killing, we could... um..[SIZE="1"] nevermind[/SIZE]. :o
Don't you hate when people do that? :haha:
Hard to imagine that someone really would ;)
I thought about your earlier post and there is one more item I must take issue with. You believe that Israel would strategically bomb crop fields. This idea is ridiculous on its face for no other reason than no army in the world would waste expensive munitions bombing dirt. But what you should also know is that Israel provides almost all the fresh water for Gaza, and if it doesn't want Gaza growing crops, or if it wants to maximize suffering, it can merely shut the water off for a while.
If you saw images or video of dirt being bombed I will guarantee you that the rockets that rained down on the crops were fired by Hamas. Like all modern militaries, Israel actually tries to aim their bombs. Hamas points in the general direction and lets Allah do the aiming part. Their bombs often hit their own territory and/or citizens.
It does seem ridiculous but maybe that's a reason that no one will beleve it happened when it did. It looks like I got it wrong that tunnels could be under farmland. I read today that the tunnel network is far more extensive than first believed, and
this article, albeit from Palestinian sources seems to bear that out. So there would be justification in Israel's eyes to destroy the land under which the tunnels ran. The first article in which I found this information about farms and orchards being decimated was quite long and on a Palestinian news site, so there's always the possibility it was embellished. I've extracted the relevant text:
Qte
I’m writing now from my home, but I still feel dizzy from shock and nauseated by the sights and smells on my visit to Khan Younis and Khuza’a.
Yesterday I decided to use the opportunity of the ceasefire to visit my family in Khan Younis. I especially wanted to see my sister who had open heart surgery before Israel’s assault. I hadn’t seen her for 36 days. I’m lucky that I have enough fuel in my car to drive 24 kilometers (15 miles) so I struck out towards the south.
I drove down Salaheddin Road and passed rubble from mosques, houses, and factories. Some buildings were destroyed completely and some partially. Later on in my drive,
I saw dozens of big trees uprooted and smashed, fruit trees destroyed and farms and gardens decimated and ruined. The Israeli bombs were aimed to destroy the infrastructure, to destroy Gaza’s economy. Even the main cookie factory was targeted and destroyed.
I passed UN trucks distributing food to people in long lines. This siege and assault by the Israelis has made everyone in the Gaza Strip live as a refugee, missing basic needs and struggling to survive.
As we set out to the east, my niece pointed out the devastation, “You can see where the Israeli tanks were—here and here.” We continued toward Khuza’a. It was a model Palestinian agricultural village with open fields and green everywhere.
They had fruit trees and vegetable fields. But there was nothing left of the village I remembered.
The smell and the sights we saw were shocking. The moment we parked and I got out, a very strange smell hit us—the smell of dead bodies. That smell will never leave me; it is still stuck in my nose. We saw totally flattened houses and other houses partially destroyed. It reminded me of pictures from war-torn areas where years of fighting erased a village. This Israeli assault has hit the Palestinian people more deeply than the last two military attacks. This one is even more deadly and destructive. Whole neighborhoods and villages have been wiped off the map.
I ask myself now how can we start again?
By Dr. Mona El-Farra, Director of Gaza Projects, who is a physician by training and a human rights and women’s rights activist by practice in the occupied Gaza Strip.
Unqte
I looked for other reports of farmland destruction resulting from the current conflict and found a quite a few - some from Palestinian sources and others with UN tags being more factual with rather short references.
Hard to imagine that someone really would ;)
Heh heh heh, When I read, " I'm not sure what would be achieved by countering every point really...", I couldn't resist. :blush:
Jimmy Carter and the Camp David Accords, told us peace is here. After 13 years of post 9-11 carrying the load, (we carried the tent, allies carried the stakes), and hearing regular declarations of victory & peace being just around the corner, we're jaded. Many of us don't believe peace in the middle east is possible. At any cost. By anyone's intervention.
In the past, threads of this nature sparked a flurry of activity. But now I, for one, am sick of hearing solutions that evaporate faster than alcohol. Sick of hearing just a few billion dollars more. Sick of endless lies on all sides.
If I was diligently sifting through the monsoon of information/opinion available, I could probably figure out the truth. Then what? What do I do with it? Can't give it away because nobody has room for it without throwing away their own truth.
The Israeli bombs were aimed to destroy the infrastructure, to destroy Gaza’s economy.
If you want to destroy the infrastructure, destroy an economy, bomb bridges, roads, oil/gas terminals, power plants and loading docks.
The one thing you don't bomb, if you want to destroy infrastructure and an economy, is farms. You can't destroy dirt by bombing it. The next day it's still dirt. (And now, it's pre-tilled!) (that is a joke)
If you want to destroy farms, why not use salt? It's very available in the area (the Dead Sea is right there) and utterly cheap. I wager $1,000 of salt would ruin more farmland, for far longer, than $1 million in modern bombs.
If you want to destroy the infrastructure, destroy an economy, bomb bridges, roads, oil/gas terminals, power plants and loading docks.
The one thing you don't bomb, if you want to destroy infrastructure and an economy, is farms. You can't destroy dirt by bombing it. The next day it's still dirt. (And now, it's pre-tilled!) (that is a joke)
If you want to destroy farms, why not use salt? It's very available in the area (the Dead Sea is right there) and utterly cheap. I wager $1,000 of salt would ruin more farmland, for far longer, than $1 million in modern bombs.
The Jews already did that at Shechem. Doesn't work well unless you kill everyone first.
I haven't posted any of the many, many stories about "collaborators" being executed by Hamas because they have all been in Israeli newspapers. Finally it is hitting the Times. This story is the tip of the iceberg. It says 18 is the largest number. Israeli newspapers are reporting hundreds, including many who worked on digging tunnels, since once they worked on tunnels they knew where the tunnels were, can't have that.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/23/world/middleeast/israel-gaza.html
Palestinians Suspected of Collaborating With Israel Are Executed in Gaza Strip
As many as 18 Palestinians suspected of collaborating with Israel were fatally shot in public on Friday, according to local news agencies and two witnesses, the largest number of such executions reported since the onset of this summer’s battle between Israel and militants in the Gaza Strip.
Journalists, human-rights workers and a witness said that either 9 or 11 people, including two women, were killed Friday morning in a public park and a bus stop near Al Azhar University in Gaza City, not far from the central prison where they were believed to have been held. Seven others, their hands tied behind their backs, were killed outside Al Omri mosque downtown after noon prayer, another witness said, leaving bloodstains on the ground that bystanders photographed with their mobile phones.
Were you aware of this? The dying Gazans, they're almost all young males. Which can't possibly be true if you believe Israel is targeting, like, everyone:
Justbeen listening to a piece on the radio about this. Turns out it is very common in wars for civilian deaths to be predominantly male - for a variety of reasons. For instance - it tends to be the men who venture out to look for food/survivors, to risk going back home to get things etc. Within safe areas, women and children tend to be further in and men are often at the outskirts, in the corridors and so on - so a hit on a refugee safe area, like a hospital is likely to kill far more men than women. Men are much easier to mistake for fighters when they not. Women are generally assumed not to be fighters. A rocket hitting a cafe or bar is more likely to kill men that women, particularly in a muslim country - where men tend to be out more than women. The emergency services in a muslim country in particular are more likely to be male than female.
No doubt some of those young men weren't civilians. But - many of them wil have been and this is to be expected in any large number of civilian casualities.
Were you aware of this? The dying Gazans, they're almost all young males. Which can't possibly be true if you believe Israel is targeting, like, everyone:
http://time.com/3035937/gaza-israel-hamas-palestinian-casualties/
Reported by an American non-Jew, if that's something you think is important.
I read your link. I found no support for your statement anywhere. Could you explain why you came to that conclusion please?
***
This was from your link though:
Children, here defined as those under age 17, represented 194 of fatalities, 20% of the total. Any child fatality is a tragedy, but it is important to note that children make up over half the population of Gaza.
If I take your point that the Israelis are being specific and intentional, not "indiscriminate", how in the world can this be justified?
I take that back, suggesting that you justify the actions of the armed forces of a foreign country. That's unfair. But it is also wrong. I am struggling and failing to express my shock and disbelief at the inconsistency, the hypocrisy here. Asymmetrical warfare is a phrase that makes me want to wash my mouth with soap. "You kill one of mine, I kill twenty of yours." J.F.C.
I have lost a lot of respect for all sides in this conflict, those claiming to represent authority and responsibility for what's happening, but that loss is not equal. It is proportional to how much respect I had before this last conflagration. It is proportional to how much power they have. And Israel has lost most of my respect in this regard.
I hold them to a higher standard. They have more of everything in this conflict, and they have more responsibility, too. This whole fucking shitshow saddens and sickens me.
I haven't posted any of the many, many stories about "collaborators" being executed by Hamas because they have all been in Israeli newspapers. Finally it is hitting the Times. This story is the tip of the iceberg. It says 18 is the largest number. Israeli newspapers are reporting hundreds, including many who worked on digging tunnels, since once they worked on tunnels they knew where the tunnels were, can't have that.
Yep. Hamas are not the most pleasant people in the world. Killing the poor sods who dug the tunnels is ridiculous. And, one wuold think entirely counter productive? Wtf is going to be willing to do that work in the future?
Killing actual collaborators: wrong, definitely wrong. But also something that has been done by occupied peoples the world over, pretty much throughout the whole of human history. Plenty of French collaborators lost their lives to the resistance. The IRA killed and maimed a fair few people they considered 'collaborators'. Still wrong - but not at all unusual. I'd honestly be more surprised to find that Hamas hadn't killed people suspected of being collaborators.
Worth mentioning btw that israel's practice of paying (and pressuring) Palestinian civilians to act as informants might have something to with increased tension around collaborators. Particularly in the wake of several high impact killings of Hamas leaders.
Worth mentioning btw that israel's practice of paying (and pressuring) Palestinian civilians to act as informants might have something to with increased tension around collaborators. Particularly in the wake of several high impact killings of Hamas leaders.
all countries involved in spying/targetting pay informants or put some other pressure on them to keep the information flowing. law enforcement does the same. this should not be a surprise to anyone
Oh I agree. Not much of this is surprising really.
I read your link. I found no support for your statement anywhere. Could you explain why you came to that conclusion please?
Yes, I read and evaluated a bunch of sources for that post but I worked hard to find the source furthest from Israel possible, as two Dwellars have mentioned they do not trust Israeli sources and I should think there are others who feel that way. Then that source (Time) didn't have the detail that those other sources had. So.
Here is a chart comparing the casualty demographics to the actual demographics of Gaza as of late July. You'll notice that young males are pretty much taking the brunt of it. Look at the age 20-24 category in particular. In that age group, women outnumber men by a ratio of 3 to 1. Yet 90% of the casualties in that age group are men. You will have to decide for yourself whether Dana's explanation for this discrepancy explains it. At the very least, it begs the question of why this would be the case if the IDF was bombing everything.
Asymmetrical warfare is a phrase that makes me want to wash my mouth with soap. "You kill one of mine, I kill twenty of yours."
Whatever you think of Netanyahu, what do you make of this quote:
The truth is that if Israel were to put down its arms there would be no more Israel. If the Arabs were to put down their arms there would be no more war.
And Sparky, I respectfully ask you to avoid all the "saddens and sickens" kind of stuff. It can a different kind of conversation. I'm only asking.
But also something that has been done by occupied peoples the world over, pretty much throughout the whole of human history.
Certainly, but it doesn't have to be so.
Palestinians on the West Bank were occupied by Jordan for 20 years and everyone was fine with that.
I'd wager that if the UN were occupying Gaza there would still be war with the Jews. That's where the money and power comes from.
Why doesn't the media comment about the Egyptian occupation of Gaza?
The influx of over 200,000 refugees into Gaza during the 1948 war resulted in a dramatic decrease in the standard of living. Because the Egyptian government restricted movement to and from the Gaza Strip, its inhabitants could not look elsewhere for gainful employment. In 1955, one observer (a member of the United Nations Secretariat) noted that "For all practical purposes it would be true to say that for the last six years in Gaza over 300,000 povertystricken people have been physically confined to an area the size of a large city park."
Baster, James, "Economic Problems in the Gaza Strip," Middle East Journal, Vol. 9, No. 3 (Summer, 1955), pp. 323–327.
It appears Egypt, not Israel, created the Palestinian dilemma. Egypt continues to block Palestinian access through it's border. Consider me biased. I will never bear arms against Israel.
Whatever you think of Netanyahu, what do you make of this quote:
The truth is that if Israel were to put down its arms there would be no more Israel. If the Arabs were to put down their arms there would be no more war.
And Sparky, I respectfully ask you to avoid all the "saddens and sickens" kind of stuff. It can a different kind of conversation. I'm only asking.
Well,
Sparky, I think it's
sad that Netanyahu resorts to
sick fear-mongering, however euphonious and poetic-sounding.
What do make of this quote:
President George W. Bush, in an address to a joint session of Congress on September 20, 2001 said, "Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists."
Same kind of divisive, war-accelerating, jingoism. The purpose of such a statement is not to convey truth, but to justify past and future aggression.
Yes, I read and evaluated a bunch of sources for that post but I worked hard to find the source furthest from Israel possible, as two Dwellars have mentioned they do not trust Israeli sources and I should think there are others who feel that way. Then that source (Time) didn't have the detail that those other sources had. So.
Here is a chart comparing the casualty demographics to the actual demographics of Gaza as of late July. You'll notice that young males are pretty much taking the brunt of it. Look at the age 20-24 category in particular. In that age group, women outnumber men by a ratio of 3 to 1. Yet 90% of the casualties in that age group are men. You will have to decide for yourself whether Dana's explanation for this discrepancy explains it. At the very least, it begs the question of why this would be the case if the IDF was bombing everything.
I read that page too, before I posted in the first place.
Here's a link to a clearer graph. It's the source material for the blog post you quoted.
[ATTACH]48923[/ATTACH]
But I don't see anywhere that supports your claim that women outnumber men three to one.
The data I've seen show the ratio to be practically one to one.
Most of the casualties are in the middle of the age range, but there's plenty of spillover into either end. If the bombs and guns and missiles used by Israel are .......
Let me restart.
I think it's clear from the body count on the Gazan side that Israel isn't being too careful who they hit--whatever the reason may be, sloppy, careless, accidental, aggressive, indiscriminate or intentional--whatever.
There is no acceptable reason for 109 kids under the age of 10 to be killed. That makes me [SIZE="4"]sick[/SIZE]. That makes me [SIZE="4"]sad[/SIZE].Whatever you think of Netanyahu, what do you make of this quote:
The truth is that if Israel were to put down its arms there would be no more Israel. If the Arabs were to put down their arms there would be no more war.
V didn't answer so I'll try to form one. Would the Arabs get their homeland if they put down their arms? Obviously not. Whoever disarms is dead. Each can only get a deal if they can prove they can kill the other at a level that is unacceptable. That's why the Arabs inside Palestine (for lack of a better label) will lose, they don't have the population or arms to hurt Israel enough to force a deal. The Arabs outside might but the Bush destabilization makes that an unreadable mess.
But I don't see anywhere that supports your claim that women outnumber men three to one.
You're right, I misinterpreted other data during a somewhat non-sober period last night. Sorry about that.
I think it's clear from the body count on the Gazan side that Israel isn't being too careful who they hit--whatever the reason may be, sloppy, careless, accidental, aggressive, indiscriminate or intentional--whatever.
Right, and also Hamas isn't careful what it hits. Israel's bombs are precision-guided. Hamas's are not. Hamas has launched 3000 missiles so far. Untrained combatants point in the direction of Israel and fire. A good percentage of those fall short or go off course and land in Gaza. I read 10% but I don't know where that number came from. Gazans die from these misfires. I don't know how many.
Would the Arabs get their homeland if they put down their arms? Obviously not. Whoever disarms is dead.
The Arabs would definitely get their homeland if they put down their arms. Part of the reason Israel was created by the UN was that Jews were not exactly comfortable continuing to live in Europe. What they wanted was a place where they could live without the danger of annihilation. Once Israel was segmented off, Arab nations kicked out their Jews, since now there was a place they could go. A huge percentage of Jewish Israelis have a heritage only 2-3 generations old of seeking a place they could live in freedom without being racially hated and discriminated against and killed and such.
That is their expectation. And since the creation of Israel in 1948, we (meaning the rest of the civilized world) have a responsibility to make sure that happens. But somewhere down the road, Europe begged off its part of that responsibility.
It was actually at that point that the American dollars began to arrive. Once all of Arabia waged war on Israel and it was uncertain whether the Jews would survive, the US collectively said we better help out here.
And that was with all the support and involvement of the American left, to the point where the anticipated Democratic Presidential candidate (RFK) was assassinated in the first act of Arabic terrorism on US shores.
that's how I see it anyway, i could be wrong
... There is no acceptable reason for 109 kids under the age of 10 to be killed. That makes me [SIZE="4"]sick[/SIZE]. That makes me [SIZE="4"]sad[/SIZE]. ...
But, but, it's a tradition BigV, handed down to us from your grandparents who supported the same kinds of activities in the past with their tax dollars. They also passed the practice on to the rest of the world. You still love
them don't you? Your poo pooing the Israelis seems a little like the pot calling the kettle black: you must be the sensitive one in the family ...
NAPALM STICKS TO KIDS
We shoot the sick, the young, the lame
We do our best to kill and maim
Because the kills all count the same
Napalm sticks to kids
Flying low and feeling mean
See that family by the stream
Drop some napalm, hear them scream
Napalm sticks to kids
Flying low across the trees
Pilots doing what they please
Dropping frags on refugees
Napalm sticks to kids
See those farmers over there
Watch me get them with a pair
Blood and guts everywhere
Napalm sticks to kids
Gooks in the open making hay
But I hear the gunships say
There'll be no Chieu Hois today
Napalm sticks to kids
I've seen it happen only twice
But both times it was mighty nice
Shooting peasants planting rice
Napalm sticks to kids
Drop some H.E. on a farm
It won't do any harm
Just blows away their legs and arms
Napalm sticks to kids
There's a gook on his knees
Launch some flechettes into the breeze
Arms and legs nailed to trees
Napalm sticks to kids
Truck in a sampan sits in the stern
They don't think their bont will burn
Those fucking gooks will never learn
Napalm sticks to kids
A squad of Cong in the grass
But the fighting's long since past
Crispy critters in the mass
Napalm sticks to kids
Gooks down in a .50 pit
Baby sucking its mother's tits
Dow Chemical doesn't give a shit
Napalm sticks to kids
Shoot civilians where they sit
Take some pictures as you split
All your life you'll remember it
Napalm sticks to kids
Napalm, son, it's lots of fun
Dropped by bomb or shot from guns
It gets them all on the run
Napalm sticks to kids
They're in good shape, for the shape they're in
But here's no way that they can win
With napalm running down their chin
Napalm sticks to kids
Would the Arabs get their homeland if they put down their arms? Obviously not. Whoever disarms is dead.
20% of Israel's population are Arabs. 0% of any Palestinian state will be Jews. This is why they want to stop the settlements. If the West Bank were to become a state today, those Jews would have to go, one way or the other. Because there is a fundamentally different mindset on each side here.
That is one reason why there is a tremendous difference in body counts. In Syria, the UN is saying there are 191,000 dead so far. In Gaza there are about 2,000. It's all very sickening and saddening - because we are western, we agree that every death is sickening and saddening. There's no need to say it.
But we want to minimize deaths. Israel believes that too. But as long as the Arab world believes what it believes, it will be hard to do that without any deaths at all.
I am so sorry that I just blather on and on. There is something wrong with me.
Logorrhea. :blah:
Now you have a name for it! :lol2:
Gentleman - The civilian to combatant casualty ratio in Gaza seems to be one of the best on record. Check out the ratios for Iraq, Afghanistan, or Vietnam. You seem to forget that this is asymmetric warfare which always has higher ratios than a conventional war. The cry about the death of 109 children is nothing. Hell, I'm probably responsible for more than that when I ran a targeting cell. It is the nature of the game when they have human shields. Grow a set of stones and quit whining about the little stuff.
But we want to minimize deaths. Israel believes that too.
That assumption is not borne out by facts. Israelis, in general, probably want that. But Likud clearly has a 'kill then all' or 'send them back to where they come from' attitude. Same attitude was even observed in 1950/60 US Southern states.
For every 30 dead Palestiniians, only one Israeli dies. That is bad. Yesterday, big news was one Israeli child died. Where was the report that said four Palestinians children also died that same day? Peter Jenning was very blunt about this. We Americans do not get balanced reporting from both sides.
In this latest conflict, four Israeli children have been killed. In the meantime, about 500 Palestinian children have been killed. Why is that good? Racist?
Even the UN has cited Israel for bombing or shelling locations they were told repeatedly (in one case 17 times) as UN safe zones.
Unfortunately, too many want to paint all Israelis and Palestinians in the same color. Most in Gaza were not Hamas and were not supporters of Hamas. They regarded Hamas as occupiers. If Israel really wanted to end this conflict, then their strategy is to separate Hamas from the rest of Gaza residents.
But Likud is an extremist organization. To increase power to extremists, make it impossible for moderates to exist. And so Israel makes no distinction between Hamas and any other Palestinian. They routinely kill or maim any Palestinian since that increases support for extremists - makes peace all but impossible.
If you do not separate Likud from other Israelis, then you have played right into the propaganda of extremism.
Again, a Saudi foreign minister said how to eliminate the problem. Ignore Hamas. Negotiate with moderates and others who are the only hope of peace. That is obvious to anyone who really learned from history in general and history of this region in particular. But that means Likud may see another event similar to what happened in the Sinai.
Likud was very clear about this. Never again. Their extremist agenda is obvious. God gave them the West Bank. It is only time before Israel takes it all as god has decreed. That is extremist rhetoric. No way around that reality.
TW, God did not give Israel the West Bank. They captured it from Jordan in 1967. After the Arab-Israeli War. Remember that? And ever since, attacks have been launched from there and other places against Israel. Infiltration tunnels have been dug.
Israel has tried many times to avoid civilian death. It is Hamas who hides behind and among civilians in order to cause civilian death and injury and thus garner worldwide condemnation against Israel. The UN is merely a tool used by Hamas to attack their sworn enemy. One of many.
Hamas hides
rockets in UN schools making them legitimate Israeli targets. Therefore, such attacks are
NOT a war crime.
The party committing war crimes here is
Hamas, not Israel. Hamas deliberately targets Israeli civilians yet the international community remains silent and unseeing. How is THAT *not* a war crime?
You did get one thing right though. Americans are NOT getting to see honest, unbiased news coverage of the events there.
TW, God did not give Israel the West Bank.
You know that. I know that. But extremists - Likud - say something completely different. Extremist say this land was promised by god to the Jews. If you cannot recognize their extremist propaganda and do not openly criticize it, then you cannot see a solution to what will otherwise be wars forever.
Netanyahu is an expert at torpedoing every peace process. He plays along until he has some trivial excuse for undermining peace. For the same reason why Sharon intentionally restarted the Intafada. Like Sharon, Netanyahu needs violence and hate to keep the people (Palestinians and Jews) from becoming too moderate. Otherwise peace might happen. Then Israel cannot confiscate the West Bank - as god promised.
If not blaming Likud equally with Hamas, then you are not moderate and are in denial. Likud openly called for and assassinated Yitzhak Rabin because he attempted peace with Arab nations. Likud is still smarting from a peace treaty with Egypt and the resulting removal of their Sinai settlements. Likud has long been quite clear about this. Never again. Likud extremists called for and got the murder of Rabin. Anything that might undermine stealing of West Bank land must be evil. Anyone who can torpedo every peace process is a perfect extremist Likud leader.
If grasping reality rather than propaganda, then you know Hamas rockets cannot target anything. And so only 30 Israelis and 2000 Palestinians die. Unlike in Israel, Israel also destroyed most everything Palestinians need to survive including the power plant and desalination plants. And a seven year embargo on anything necessary to have a minimal standard of living. Meanwhile, Israel has lots of new holes in farmland and deserts. Extremist Jews need that embargo and targeted destruction to push moderate Palestinians into the ranks of wacko extremist Hamas. That empowers Likud and justified West Bank land theft.
I don't expect to see logical replies. You have demonstrated only Likud extremist rhetoric. Your posts define all Palestinians are evil and all Jews are good. That alone says you are incapable of thinking like a moderate. I never expect you to admit Likud is as evil as Hamas because Likud propaganda has you completely brainwashed.
You have a choice. And I did this intentionally. First, you will become emotional and angry as an extremist. Or second, you will see the conflict equally from both sides. That second option would have to be a miracle.
Israel could easily separate moderate Palestinians from extremists. But that would undermine Likud. A moderate could see that. But having challenged your emotions, I don’t expect you to respond as a moderate. I don’t expect you to see what could have undermined all this violence. That requires analysis as a moderate. Moderates see extremists on both sides as complicit to and encouraging of this violence. Extrtemists even deny moderates might exist.
Netanyahu is an expert at torpedoing every peace process. He plays along until he has some trivial excuse for undermining peace
True that. Here he explains in 2001, whilst thinking he is not being filmed, how America is easy to twist and how he sabotaged the Oslo accords.
Go full screen and press for subtitles.
[YOUTUBE]Cl60X_jOsR0[/YOUTUBE]
The obvious solution is for all Palestinians to convert to Christianity so the West will support them and Israel will leave them alone.
That was easy, maybe next weekend I'll reunite North and South Korea.
Nah: they'd have to change their ethnicity too. No way will the West ever fully empathise with Arabs.
*sigh* We miss you Lawrence.
Gentleman - The civilian to combatant casualty ratio in Gaza seems to be one of the best on record. Check out the ratios for Iraq, Afghanistan, or Vietnam. You seem to forget that this is asymmetric warfare which always has higher ratios than a conventional war. The cry about the death of 109 children is nothing. Hell, I'm probably responsible for more than that when I ran a targeting cell. It is the nature of the game when they have human shields. Grow a set of stones and quit whining about the little stuff.
Sarge-
Fuck you, you ignorant, hypocritical piece of shit.
Would you feel the same "it's nothing" if it were your daughters who were killed? If your answer is yes, then I will have nothing to do with you, ever again. If your answer is no, then explain to my how you think your love of your children is greater/better/more important than the love these bereft parents have for their children. If your answer is no, explain why your children matter more than those other children who have been killed.
As I say up-thread: All I'm seein' are folks interested in profiting from their 'oppressed' status goin' at it with folks interested in foistin' up their demented religion on the world.
To hell with both sides...to hell with those who advocate for either side.
However, I must add this amendment: Currently, no Jew is demanding I become Jewish or die.
No Jew is lookin' to cut my head off just because I exist (as non-Jew).
The Wahhabists, on the other hand...*shrug*
So while I still say 'to hell with both sides', if push comes to shove: I'd rather see the Islamic orthodoxists put down than the Israelis (even if the Israelis have dirty hands).
It's a matter of practicalities.
As far as I can tell there aren't any Palestinians threatening to cut off your head either.
Hamas are not wahhabists. They have fought against wahhabi groups within Gaza.
http://lubpak.com/archives/1329Just cuz the hydra has multiple heads one shouldn't assume each head represents a separate entity...even if the heads nip at each other, they all share the same body.
And: if you prefer, I'll call them 'Islamic Orthodoxists'.
Or: would you prefer demented religionists?
Sarge-
Fuck you, you ignorant, hypocritical piece of shit.
Would you feel the same "it's nothing" if it were your daughters who were killed? If your answer is yes, then I will have nothing to do with you, ever again. If your answer is no, then explain to my how you think your love of your children is greater/better/more important than the love these bereft parents have for their children. If your answer is no, explain why your children matter more than those other children who have been killed.
Way to take it to a personal level with the name calling. Anyway, I'd be devastated if my children died. However, their will always be civilian casualties in asymmetric warfare. Seriously look at Israel's record as compared to the US, Great Britain, or NATO (specifically in Bosnia). Before you defame me again, talk to the other veterans in the Cellar about civilian casualties in combat. You have to learn to accept them to accomplish a mission. It is not the fault of the IDF, when Hamas uses human shields or even bombs their own citizens due to indiscriminate firing. None of you have even mentioned the Hamas strike on the synagogue before prayers on the Sabbath.
Dana - Hamas doesn't cut off your head, they shoot you. Remember we discussed the recent 18 executions. I cannot understand why you would support a country that practices female genital mutilation and other violence against women. The Palestinian Center for Democracy and Conflict Resolution report indicated that Palestinian women face many forms of violence, with 76.4% of Gazan women being subjected to emotional violence, 34.8% to physical violence, 14.9% to sexual violence, 78.9% to social violence and 88.3% to economic violence. I think we also need to review their LGBT record.
As far as converting them to Christian as was mentioned in a recent joke, the Islamization of Gaza has put increasing pressure on the tiny Christian minority. Following the Hamas takeover of Gaza in 2007, Abu Saqer, leader of Jihadia Salafiya, a rival group to Hamas, announced the opening of a "military wing" to enforce Muslim law in Gaza. "I expect our Christian neighbors to understand the new Hamas rule means real changes. They must be ready for Islamic rule if they want to live in peace in Gaza." Sheik Saqer has asserted that there is "no need" for Christians in Gaza to maintain Christian institutions and demanded that Hamas "must work to impose an Islamic rule or it will lose the authority it has and the will of the people."
In October 2007, Rami Khader Ayyad, owner of Gaza's only Christian bookstore, was abducted, beaten and murdered, after his bookstore was firebombed by an unidentified group attacking targets associated with Western influence. According to Ayyad's family and neighbors, he had regularly received anonymous death threats from people angered by his missionary work.
Now listen to me very closely. Some of you have all of these grand ideas, yet you never donned a uniform and stood up for anything. You sit in your ivory towers and condemn those who at least try to do something. Even with the recent child immigration issue, how many of you made donations to Catholic Charities to help. Oh everyone had an opinion, yet one again you sat on your hands. What a fine bunch of hypocrites.
I readily admit I don't seem to have the education that so many of you have. I admit I have brain trauma and suffer from PTSD. But you know something, I stood up for our country and my beliefs in combat and as a police officer. I may not be as smart as you, but at least I had the courage to try.
A couple of final thoughts, I never want to see another reference to napalming or deliberately firing on Vietnamese again. We have a Vietnamese refugee on here and you should at least think about how such phrases might hurt her. Now listen to me closely, “I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them.”
... A couple of final thoughts, I never want to see another reference to napalming or deliberately firing on Vietnamese again. We have a Vietnamese refugee on here and you should at least think about how such phrases might hurt her. Now listen to me closely, “I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them.”
Then don't look, boy. Apparently you pick and choose which parts of the Constitution you'll defend and you don't include the 1st Amendment. Considering you've been shot when you let your guard down during a routine traffic stop and your body armor saved you life, your bravado falls flat. If you don't want to be insulted, don't use insulting language with others here, not even generically. You're no longer psychologically stabile enough to determine when you; or, anyone else has been wronged. Don't wear out your welcome here by giving others ultimatums and making yourself intolerably irritating. Try to lay down requirements here again and I'll not only lock your heels, I'll shove them up your ass. The golden rule is now in effect for you, has-been.
Sarge-
Fuck you, you ignorant, hypocritical piece of shit.
Way to take it to a personal level with the name calling.
Grow a set of stones and quit whining about the little stuff.
Saying I'm a whiny eunch is personal level of name calling. If you dish it out, you're gonna get it right back at you.
Now that we got that out of the way--
I asked you this:
Would you feel the same "it's nothing" if it were your daughters who were killed? If your answer is yes, then I will have nothing to do with you, ever again.
Anyway, I'd be devastated if my children died.
I am unsurprised and relived by your answer. OF COURSE you'd be devastated. OF COURSE.
So please, please tell me how things are different for the children in Gaza, for the parents in Gaza. How can you say "it's nothing"??? Show me, use small words if you think that's all I will understand, explain to me why they hypothetical loss of your children would be devastating but the real loss of innocent fucking children, but in Gaza, "is nothing".
please tell me how things are different for the children in Gaza, for the parents in Gaza
Certainly,
You are appealing to a philosophy that the Islamists do not share.
If you made that argument to them here is what you'd get in return. They would like for their children to die for this cause. It's the fast road to heaven for them. This is not an isolated statement:
[YOUTUBE]GyXS9072jCc[/YOUTUBE]
You're no longer psychologically stabile enough to determine when you; or, anyone else has been wronged. Don't wear out your welcome here by giving others ultimatums and making yourself intolerably irritating. Try to lay down requirements here again and I'll not only lock your heels, I'll shove them up your ass. The golden rule is now in effect for you, has-been.
If you are man enough, then do it. I don't ask for special treatment. I have no qualms with meeting you any day. If you wish to question my mental stability, then you are welcome to diagnose it in person.
Proposing IRL confrontation is unacceptable here. JBKlyde was banned for it. People have been cutting you slack because of your past record of public service. Don't disgrace that record by trying to commit suicide by sexobon. It's bad enough that you're a burned out alcoholic now.
snip--
Try to lay down requirements here again and I'll not only lock your heels, I'll shove them up your ass. The golden rule is now in effect for you, has-been.
If you are man enough, then do it. I don't ask for special treatment. I have no qualms with meeting you any day. If you wish to question my mental stability, then you are welcome to diagnose it in person.
Proposing IRL confrontation is unacceptable here. JBKlyde was banned for it. People have been cutting you slack because of your past record of public service. Don't disgrace that record by trying to commit suicide by sexobon.
It's you, sexobon, who's proposed IRL confrontation; it's you, sexobon, who's threatened physical violence. It's you, sexobon, who courts banning for shit like this. I find you intolerable; I welcome your banning. In the meantime, I ignore you. I find your posts mostly irritating like your deliberate misuse of the golden rule here. You're an unhelpful troll of the first order, and a particularly mean one to boot. I don't miss you when your posts don't display, I won't miss you when you stop making them altogether.
Oh hey, ha ha, remember back when I was merely asking for a better conversation? A more adult way to talk about this stuff? ha ha those good old days
Certainly,
You are appealing to a philosophy that the Islamists do not share.
If you made that argument to them here is what you'd get in return. They would like for their children to die for this cause. It's the fast road to heaven for them. This is not an isolated statement:
[YOUTUBE]GyXS9072jCc[/YOUTUBE]
I'm not making that argument. Sarge (and others here) are making that argument (THEY are death-loving killers). I'm asking for the justification by those making that argument. I'm asking the people who are doing the killing, or those who support those who are doing the killing to explain to me why that's ok. Your post of an angry, stupid person with a microphone does not explain why the
"precision-guided" weapons of the Israelis are killing little kids. It doesn't explain why the loss of Sarge's kids would be devastating and the loss of Palestinian kids "is nothing".
What the fuck happened to Israeli agency? Are they the impotent puppets of fuckwit Muhammad Deif? That's your explanation? If a gunman has his pistol to the head of a hostage and he's hiding behind the hostage, do you shoot through the hostage to kill the gunman??? What the fucking fuck?
I wonder which of the Big boys is going to have a coronary first. Should I start a poll? :lol:
:blah:
I didn't make reference to meeting Big Sarge in person as he did with me. That's what differentiates between figurative speech and literal speech. Reading comprehension BigV, you ain't got it and never did. That's why you so often blow things out of proportion. It'll always be the same old, same old from you. Someday you'll make some lucky woman a fine teenage daughter. :p:
I wonder which of the Big boys is going to have a coronary first. Should I start a poll? :lol:
Is this going to involve poll dancing?
Oh hey, ha ha, remember back when I was merely asking for a better conversation? A more adult way to talk about this stuff? ha ha those good old days
Just another manic Monday.
BigV - I guess I am death loving, because I have been wrapped up in a warrior ethos for too long. I am trying to improve myself by studying Buddhism and Vietnamese. The short answers I would have to give you are based upon dark humor that has long been used when discussing casualty to combatant ratios.
1. Kill them all and let God sort them out
2. To kill the big rats, you have to kill the little rats.
Sexobon - If I am banned, then I will be banned. If you wish to characterize me as unstable and a raging alcoholic, then you should be smart enough not to temp an extremely vindictive son of a bitch. Buddy-ro, I don't give a damn. If you wish combat, I plan on obliging your every wish in the only way I know how
Elevate your game or you're just entertainment.
Your post of an angry, stupid person with a microphone does not explain why the "precision-guided" weapons of the Israelis are killing little kids.
Like I said: this is not an isolated statement.
This is the rallying cry of Islamists
everywhere. It's a successful rallying cry because it is a belief. Their belief systems are different than ours.
From bin Laden: "This place may be bombed, and we will be killed. We love death. The US loves life."
[YOUTUBE]V_VOjGXpyIU[/YOUTUBE]
To an Egyptian child preacher: "Oh Zionists, we love death, we long for martyrdom for sake of Allah."
[YOUTUBE]xTLuZ080ucQ[/YOUTUBE]
To drone-killed American Imam Anwar al-Awlaki, who
(Wiki entry)
...posted an essay in Arabic entitled, "Why Muslims Love Death," on the Islam Today website, praising the Palestinian suicide bombers.
Why do (so many) Muslims love death? It's such a fundamentally different belief than ours that it's very difficult to accept. Don't take my word for it, check it out.
I prayed on this. The only thing that came to me was an old song. Maybe we can all step back and learn.
[YOUTUBE]watch?v=ht7mxF9XZiA[/YOUTUBE]
Also BigSur - your western style of deep concern for the children is, I think, what galvanized Israel to crush Hamas this time around.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_kidnapping_and_murder_of_Israeli_teenagers
I'm sure, in your humanity, you would feel the same urgency for action if it were your teenagers who were kidnapped and murdered.
Wow, Sexobon, that was low, even for you.
Dana - Hamas doesn't cut off your head, they shoot you. Remember we discussed the recent 18 executions. I cannot understand why you would support a country that practices female genital mutilation and other violence against women. The Palestinian Center for Democracy and Conflict Resolution report indicated that Palestinian women face many forms of violence, with 76.4% of Gazan women being subjected to emotional violence, 34.8% to physical violence, 14.9% to sexual violence, 78.9% to social violence and 88.3% to economic violence. I think we also need to review their LGBT record.
All of which appalls me. Israel shelling towerblocks and UN schools is not going to alleviate the suffering of those women.
The situation for women in many countries is appalling. FGM is practised in many parts of the world, amongst muslim and Christian communities. Domestic violence and rape are also endemic in many parts of the world. Approximately 2 women die every week, in my own country, at the hands of partners or former partners.
When Iraq was invading Kuwait, the west did not step back and say: ahh but the Kuwaitis treat their women like shit, so why should we care if someone invades them? And lest we forget our 'friends' the Saudis, who don't even let their women drive cars or leave the house without being shrouded scalp to toe and escorted by a male relative.
Hamas are not pleasant people - but nor are they all rampant islamists. They are a political organisation and the elected government of Gaza. Some of them are fundamentalists, some of them are secular Islam. They're a fairly broad church when it comes to religion. What unites them is their political objective, not the religious underpinnings.
I support the Palestinians' right to a functioning state of their own. Their right to self-determination. That doesn't mean I like everything about Palestinian culture. Any more than I like everything about India's culture, where women are treated like chattel in many areas of the country.
If we start basing our views of sovereignty and self-determination on how a country or culture treats its women then there will be very few places to defend.
These are separate issues.
Is this going to involve poll dancing?
Why do people dance when voting at the polls?
Dana - I see your point. Women are mistreated throughout most of the world. Can we at least agree that Hamas is part of the Muslim Brotherhood?
Like I said before, I am a Zionist so I tend to look at Gaza with tinted glasses
Why do people dance when voting at the polls?
Some people even dance when they're taking a break ... they call it breakdancing!
As far as converting them to Christian as was mentioned in a recent joke, the Islamization of Gaza has put increasing pressure on the tiny Christian minority. Following the Hamas takeover of Gaza in 2007, Abu Saqer, leader of Jihadia Salafiya, a rival group to Hamas, announced the opening of a "military wing" to enforce Muslim law in Gaza. "I expect our Christian neighbors to understand the new Hamas rule means real changes. They must be ready for Islamic rule if they want to live in peace in Gaza." Sheik Saqer has asserted that there is "no need" for Christians in Gaza to maintain Christian institutions and demanded that Hamas "must work to impose an Islamic rule or it will lose the authority it has and the will of the people."
In October 2007, Rami Khader Ayyad, owner of Gaza's only Christian bookstore, was abducted, beaten and murdered, after his bookstore was firebombed by an unidentified group attacking targets associated with Western influence. According to Ayyad's family and neighbors, he had regularly received anonymous death threats from people angered by his missionary work.
No one on this board ever comments on the suffering of Christians in the Middle East. It's the dirty little secret that no one acknowledges, because it's fashionable to ascribe the sins of European Roman Catholics who lived centuries ago to people today who have never been Catholic, but who have continued in a faith handed down to them for two millennia.
Christian populations predate Muslims in all of the Middle East and North Africa. Of course they do. And, while Christianity spread peacefully in the first few centuries CE, Islam, as it came into being in the 6th century, spread in the way it does today - through violence, enslavement, and genocide. The Christians of the Middle East are the forgotten minority; they are all Orthodox (or a variant); and they deserve more notice, and concern, from the West.
Big Sarge is the first person who has mentioned anything about Arab Christians. If anyone is interested, investigate what has become of the former Christian populations in Iraq and other Middle Eastern countries.
They have been decimated, driven out, and exterminated.
I spent a great deal of time with Muslim residents in WV during the past two years. They were diverse in opinion and level of devotion, as any group would be who held a common religion but had come from different backgrounds. It was a learning opportunity that I appreciated.
Dana, I've not encountered nor read about any Christian group that practiced/practices FGM. Can you provide a reference? If such a thing has ever been documented, it would be such an anomaly, such an outlier, that it should be noted as such. That is not the case in the many Muslim populations that practice FGM. Even if it predated the adoption of Islam by those populations, even if that could actually be confirmed, it was retained as compatible with Islamic mores and practice. That can't be said for Christian communities in general, in the Middle East and Asia.
snip--
I spent a great deal of time with Muslim residents in WV during the past two years. They were diverse in opinion and level of devotion, as any group would be who held a common religion but had come from different backgrounds. It was a learning opportunity that I appreciated.
--snip
ortho, did any of the Muslim residents you got a chance to learn about first hand display or betray anything like the "love of death" described above?
ortho, did any of the Muslim residents you got a chance to learn about first hand display or betray anything like the "love of death" described above?
Yes, one of the two who were originally from Saudi did. He also argued for beheadings and the cutting off of hands as appropriate punishments. The other resident from Saudi blamed 'the culture' for things like child marriage/rape and women having no recourse against domestic violence, but never spoke against the regime or Sharia law, which he supported.
Female genital mutilation (FGM) is a practice involving the removal of all or parts of the female external genitalia. It has been documented in 28 African countries and in some countries in Asia and the Middle East, but due to increasing immigration from these countries to the western world, FGM has become a worldwide human rights and health issue. Contrary to the belief that it is a practice carried out by Muslims only, it is also practiced by Christians and a minority group of Ethiopian Jews. However, FGM is neither mentioned in the Torah, nor in the Gospels, and – like in Islam – bodily mutilation is condemned by both religions. In fact, FGM is a mix of mainly cultural and social factors which may put tremendous pressure on the members of the society in question.
According to the World Health Organization (WHO), female genital mutilation (FGM), also referred to as “female circumcision” or “female cutting”, “comprises all procedures that involve partial or total removal of the external female genitalia, or other injury to the female genital organs for non-medical reasons” [1]. The WHO estimates that about 140 million girls and women worldwide are living with the consequences of FGM and that every year in Africa alone, about 3 million girls are at risk for genital mutilation [1]. FGM has been documented in 28 African countries and in some countries in Asia and the Middle East
Given the fact that some Sunni Muslims legitimate FGM by quoting a controversial hadith (a saying attributed to the Prophet Mohammed) in which the Prophet allegedly did not object to FGM provided cutting was not too severe [5] and [6] and that the least invasive type of FGM (partial or total removal of the clitoris and/or the prepuce) is also called “Sunna Circumcision” [7], FGM is widely considered to be associated with Islam. However, during a conference held in Cairo/Egypt in 2006, Muslim scholars from various nations declared FGM to be un-islamic [8] and [9] and, in fact, the traditional cultural practice of FGM predates both Islam and Christianity. Herodotus wrote about FGM being practiced in Egypt as early as 500 BC [3], while the Greek geographer Strabo who visited Egypt in about 25 BC reported that one of the Egyptian customs was “to circumcise the males and excise the females” [10]. According to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, FGM is actually practiced by Muslim, Christian and Jewish groups. There are countries, such as Nigeria, Tanzania and Niger, where the prevalence of FGM is even greater among Christian groups [11]. In Egypt, FGM is also practiced on Coptic girls [12], while in Ethiopia, the Beta Israel or Falashas, a Jewish minority, subject their girls to genital mutilation [5].
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1110570413000258
FGM does predate Islam. And it is not accepted as Islamic by all muslims. It is given cover by some because of a line in the Hadith- but is is not a muslim problem. It os much wider than that.
The appalling situation of the Christian populations in the middle east is somethig that is very worthy of discussion. I totally agree. And whilst there may not be a thread for it on here I can assure you it is a hot topic of conversation in UK news. But - what is happening to Christians does not negate or justify what is happening in Palestine.
The Jewish-Palestine situation is not about religion, though religion plays a part - it is about land and territory, politics and self-determination. It is not a continuation of Al-Quaeda and ISIS, it is not the crazy violent muslim extremists trying to create a kaliphate - it is a conflict between two peoples who both have claims on a patch of land. It is an ongoing and very specific political conflict.
The state of Islam in the world, the way women are treated, the way Christians are treated, and the spread of Islamic terrorism are interesting and deserving of their own concern but they are a sidestep in this conversation and a fairly common one whenever the problem of Palestine comes up. They are a way of muddying the waters and denying the absolute specificity of this particular conflict.
The Jewish-Palestine situation is not about religion, though religion plays a part - it is about land and territory, politics and self-determination. It is not a continuation of Al-Quaeda and ISIS, it is not the crazy violent muslim extremists trying to create a kaliphate - it is a conflict between two peoples who both have claims on a patch of land. It is an ongoing and very specific political conflict.
Hamas CharterExcellent post UT. It shows they call for the destruction of Israel, but cry foul when it involves their children who are being used as shields.
A forceful interview on 25 Aug 2014 by BBC's HardTalk Stephen Sackur grills Israel's intelligence Minister Yuval Steinitz who calls the Gaza conflict "brought only misery and suffering on both sides". Without a strategic accomplishment by the Israeli government? No, although it was a heavy price costing 70 Israeli lives (while killing over 2100 Palestinians). Israel's government "seriously considered" a full military reoccupation of Gaza. If Hamas continues rocket firing, Israel's only alternative is a Gaza invasion and occupation.
So what has this latest truce accomplished? Israel will now end a seven year embargo on aid and on building materials. Expand Gaza's fishing area. Consider opening Gaza's only airport. Permit an ocean shipping port for Gaza. Open the Egyptian Gaza border. In short, Hama's rockets may have accomplished everything intended resulting in new respect for Hamas. A major setback for Israel especially when Israel gets nothing by making Hamas more popular among Palestinians.
Mark Regev, an Israeli government spokesman, claims victory because 30 some Terrorist Tunnels were destroyed and Hamas has promised to stop digging such tunnels.
Although Steinitz does concede some new information (ie a Gaza invasion), what makes this interview most interesting are facts from Sackur that Steinitz sidesteps. For example, the American Israel relationship has been declared disfunctional. Many in Likud openly advocated a complete massacre of all in Gaza is justified if it protect only one hair on an Israeli's head. Israel intentionally targeted Gaza civilians and infastructure necessary to support civilian life.
Unfortunately, this contentious interview can only be played on BBC's iPlayer only when hardware is in the UK.
Just in case anybody is in any doubt that the problem between Israel and Palestine is about land and territory:
The United States has criticised Israel’s announcement of a land appropriation for possible settlement construction in the occupied West Bank as “counterproductive” to peace efforts, and urged the Israeli government to reverse the decision.
Israel laid claim to nearly 1,000 acres (400 hectares) in the Etzion settlement bloc near Bethlehem, a move which an anti-settlement group termed the biggest appropriation in 30 years and a Palestinian official said would cause only more friction after the Gaza war.
“We have long made clear our opposition to continued settlement activity,” a State Department official said. “This announcement, like every other settlement announcement Israel makes, planning step they approve and construction tender they issue is counterproductive to Israel’s stated goal of a negotiated two-state solution with the Palestinians.”
“We urge the government of Israel to reverse this decision,” the official said in Washington.
Israel Radio said the step was taken in response to the kidnapping and killing of three Jewish teenagers by Hamas militants in the area in June, one of the sparks for the seven-week war in Gaza that left more than 2,000 people dead.
The notice published on Sunday by the Israeli military gave no reason for the land appropriation decision.
Peace Now, which opposes Israeli settlement activities in the West Bank, said the appropriation was meant to turn a site where 10 families now live adjacent to a Jewish seminary into a permanent settlement.
Construction of a major settlement at the location, known as Gevaot, has been mooted by Israel since 2000. Last year the government invited bids for the building of 1,000 housing units at the site.
A local Palestinian mayor said Palestinians owned the tracts and harvested olive trees on them.
More here:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/01/us-criticises-israel-appropriation-land-settlementsGaza can end its war in one single Sicilian Vespers, I should think. Directed against all of Hamas as the source and fount of all its miseries. Getting shot at by Israelis amounts to a secondary effect of letting Hamas live.
Why can't the Jews and Arabs fight like good Christians?
Gaza can end its war in one single Sicilian Vespers, I should think. Directed against all of Hamas as the source and fount of all its miseries. Getting shot at by Israelis amounts to a secondary effect of letting Hamas live.
Seems to me, that was said of the PLO, albeit less colorfully.
from your link, Dana.
Israel has said construction at Gevaot would not constitute the establishment of a new settlement because the site is officially designated a neighbourhood of an existing one, Alon Shvut, several kilometres down the road.
"It's not a gang, it's a club, man." Not a new settlement. Riiiiiight.
Why can't the Jews and Arabs fight like good Christians?
Jews learned from Christians. When it a ring, it is better to be the lion.