Can you be too religious?
Giles Fraser, of the
Guardian, asks the question: Can you be too religious?
Quite a thought provoking comment piece, I thought. So, given the subject of religion, in particular Christianity, has been a hot one in here just lately, I thought I'd post a little of it here.
He discusses religiosity as a concept, but the most interesting aspect is his view of Christianity.
Jesus spent much of his time laying into the pious and the holy and lambasting the religious professionals of his day. And this was not because he was anti-Jewish – as some superficial readings of his anti-Pharisee, anti-Sadducee, anti-Temple polemics would have it – but precisely because, as a Jew himself, he came out of that very Jewish prophetic tradition of fierce hostility to religiosity. Here, for instance, is the prophet Isaiah on feisty form.
'The multitude of your sacrifices – what are they to me? says the Lord.
I have more than enough of burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of fattened animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats. Stop bringing meaningless offerings!
Your incense is detestable to me. New moons, sabbaths and convocations – I cannot bear your worthless assemblies.'
This is the sort of theology to which Jesus looked for inspiration. And partly, it was this uncompromising anti-religiosity that got him nailed to a cross.
His concluding paragraph is a lovely piece of writing and, I think, nails what Christianity should be about. It certainly is more like the Christianity I grew up with than a lot of what I currently read and hear.
Of course, I'd say you cannot be too Christian. That's a different kettle of fish. And if "being too Christian" makes you think of Christian fundamentalists, I'd want to insist that they are simply not Christian enough. Indeed, that it's their lack of faith that makes them cling to a bogus form of certainty and literalism. Mostly, Christian fundamentalists worship a book. They like the safety of having pat answers. But this is just another form of idolatry of which the Hebrew scriptures regularly warn.
Worshipping a book and worshipping God are two totally different things. Falling down before a baby, with all the inversion of power that this implies, takes courage not intellectual suicide. It is about the world being turned upside-down, the mighty (including the religious mighty) being cast down and the weak being held up. It is about placing something other than oneself at the centre of the world. And no, I don't think there can be too much of this.
It's a really interesting read. The rest can be found here:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/24/can-you-be-too-religious-jesusBruce made me rethink my view on worship.
I realised that my problem was only with organised religion, not with people.
But my word I hear much more of hate than love from all the children of the book.
Not individual people.
Well.
Rarely.
Would I connect Rich Levy with Mossad?
My parents with the IRA?
Sameena on the Welcome Desk with Al Quaida?
So maybe it's the media. Dividing us makes better newsprint.
Until.
Until.
On a forum that welcomes everyone we find people who hate.
Or who hide behind religion to hate.
Or who use other people's religion to judge.
And that really does reflect the world so who am I to be all Pollyanna.
So much good is done in the name of Allah, Jehovah, God.
I have met some devout people that make even me, an committed atheist, want to ask for a blessing.
Not everyone is out for what they can get.
I saw in the weelky wipe, that the bapist church has a new pastor. He also lives about 50 miles away an a money market man. Is there something wrong here, or just me???
Jesus died for your sins!!! Make it worth his time.
I guess I'll get the brimstone for that.
yes you can be too religious.. when you start compromising the truth of God for rules taught by men, and start exchanging the the facts and replacing them with stupid little tradition, and then sell fortunes and pass them off as Godly principles you have gone too far..
Sometimes I wonder about you. Then again I don't.
Then again I don't.
:lol2: Merry Christmas, Buster, that made my day! :lol2:
Ask not what religion can do for you; but, what you can do for religion.
Shameless aren't I.
No, you cannot possibly be too religious.
I've got the petrol, did you bring the rags and corks?
No, you cannot possibly be too religious.
well unfortunately "wicca" which is like "Satan Worship" is considered religion as well.. so when all the homo's start getting divorced and if you don't think they will your a total fool(( because obviously America can't even get right the right way)) and start tuning on the Pope and worshiping the devil "there father".. mark my word you will see religion go to far as it already has but much worse it will get..
And we're back with the obsession with homosexuality again.
Why did you post that? All I see in that link is that a man with hateful, outmoded and, quite frankly unintelligent, views used a GQ interview to spout homophobic nastiness, and now there's an argument over whether or not he should have been suspended.
I admit, I didn't read the whole article. When it got to the part about right wing conservatives denouncing a gay conservative group as fundamentally at odds with their beliefs, I stopped reading. I'd seen enough.
This Duck Dynasty Guy kind of sums up the whole issue. All he can think to talk about is which bits should go where. How utterly reductive of the human being.
The whole thing makes me feel very sad. And, y'know, I have yet to understand why, of all the things wrong in this world, the thing that seems to bother you most is that some men like to put their bits into other men.
Well, fortunately, it's never going to happen. And indeed, never did happen in the first place.
you speak of things you know nothing of what do you know about woman.. cook me a hot meal and write me a 10 verse poem about religion and homosexuality I will rebutle with my own poem, we will learn in the process, reap what we sew and come to a conclusion on both whose logic and wisdom is superior and who's destiny is heaven and who destiny "if they don't watch out" could very well be the firey pits of hell... :) are you game??
Well, fortunately, it's never going to happen. And indeed, never did happen in the first place.
Yes it did happen.
You believe that it did happen. I believe that it did not.
Photos or it never did...
Hahahahahaahaha.
Ahhh. That put a smile on my face.
you speak of things you know nothing of what do you know about woman.. cook me a hot meal and write me a 10 verse poem about religion and homosexuality I will rebutle with my own poem, we will learn in the process, reap what we sew and come to a conclusion on both whose logic and wisdom is superior and who's destiny is heaven and who destiny "if they don't watch out" could very well be the firey pits of hell... :) are you game??
Ha! *slaps JB upside the head*
No. I really don't want to encourage you to write poetry about gay people going to hell.
No. I really don't want to encourage you to write poetry about gay people going to hell.
Things you never thought you'd say at Christmas.
Hahahahahahahahaha.
I just startled Carrot by laughing really loudly.
No. I really don't want to encourage you to write poetry about gay people going to hell.
Because you know I'd win!! Scardey Cat...
I'm going to get a mental picture of a room full of geezers doing each other up the Marmite motorway. If I get back to ya in a few hours, I didn't get cast into a fiery pit.
Then, to celebrate not being dead, I'm going to give the missus a knee-trembler.
A knee trembler. One of my favorite expressions, in every sense.
Well, I'm still alive and currently still running under 40 degrees C.
Dave from Croydon had the biggest wang ever! And didn't Barry from Didcot just know it...
Right. Where's the missus?...
you speak of things you know nothing of what do you know about woman.. cook me a hot meal and write me a 10 verse poem ...
See now, I would rather that she wrote me a hot poem and made a meal out of me. Methinks thou dost protest too much.
Ha! *slaps JB upside the head* ...
Maybe that'll knock the latency out of him.
My good lady has never written me a poem and cooks a lovely dinner. Can you tell me where we're going wrong?
all that just goes to prove that my nonsense is better than yall's nonsence.. if you really wanted to resolve something you would do what I suggested but you don't want your deeds or the wicked deeds of the homos to be brought to light so you hide in the shadows...
You really want the love sausage, don't you JB. Don't feel shamed about it, everybody has their kink.
Oh, yes. He wants to ride the Cumberland express but feels that standing in the ticket queue exposes him to the glaring eyes of the world. Go for it JB. Become that sausage jockey, weigh anchor at poo bay. See if anyone cares...
Somewhere klyde posted about smashing a woman's face or somesuch
RE: his sausage desires
Bang(h)ers and mash?
bitch this ain't "homo recruit" this is destroy homo's///
bitch this ain't "homo recruit" this is destroy homo's///
Is
that what they're caling it these days?
Camille is a local girl, a very interesting lesbian writer.
What is her position on sausages?
Last I knew, anti-sausage in sex but not in life generally.
I'm not sure. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't her view on things give me more time for gardening and cooking?
I'm just trying not to be bias I don't wan't to give a one sided oppion on something I won't even try.. and believe me I won't..
Would I connect Rich Levy with Mossad?
You know, not to be too paranoid or anything, but why do I think that just by having that statement out there on the Internet, a small check mark was made in an electronic file somewhere? That there is some kind of counter that automatically produces a wiretap request when it hits 500.:right:
Anyway, I divide religious people into two categories, those that mostly internalize religion and those that mostly externalize religion. Those that internalize religion apply the ethos and/or doctrine mostly to themselves, measuring their success in how they meet the ideals of there religion. Those that externalize religion measure their success in how they can encourage/cajole/coerce/judge others on how they meet the ideals of the individuals religion, even if the people being judged are not members of that religion. The categories can be subdivided into adherence to the spirit or the letter of religious law.
Gay marriage is a perfect example. The argument that by allowing gay marriage, heterosexual marriage is somehow being spoiled for it's adherents is an external religious argument. It's like saying that members of the middle class should not be allowed to own Mercedes automobiles because doing so would cheapen the experience for the wealthy. The short answer to the car argument is that if some rich people are a*holes enough to feel that way, then there is an almost moral imperative to f*k with them by making sure it happens. Works for the marriage argument too.:cool:
bitch this ain't "homo recruit" this is destroy homo's///
Stop spouting hate, klyde. Just stop. You've fantasized about smashing women's faces in and now are talking 'destroy homo's (sic)'. Are you going for a hate hat trick?
I'm starting to think you're a troll. You're a little too organized and coherent in your hateful communications. The clanging, the word salad, all of your other pseudo-psychotic babble can be imitated. I think sexobon's right to call you out.
pseudo-psychotic babble
I warned you not to try and do the WRONG thing with me.. calling someone who is not gay.. a homo and playing mind games and not taking me seriously and saying I want sausage in my buttok is NOT want I want so don't go playing the Hate card when I get pissed because you can't handle a hedrosexual man acting like someone who thinks homo's are the psycho.. your twisted you concept of love is so demented that you think me getting mad at homos for trying to rape me is something bad..
Who are you even talking to? You're not making any sense.
they know who they are... and you don't make scene either.. I offered a solution to make the pc's shake hands.. you didn't want that solution...
... you think me getting mad at homos for trying to rape me is something bad..
Who are you even talking to? You're not making any sense.
Hard to tell if that's a part of his Hx; or, if he's just using metaphorical language again.
Neither God nor I hate gays, just their sin.
P.S. My sins are just as vile in the eyes of the Lord.
Hard to tell if that's a part of his Hx; or, if he's just using metaphorical language again.
look foker you don't run around trying to talk about in the third person when I am sitting right in front of you.. deal with the issue or be gone...
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh no. You're like a Chihuahua, all bark, no bite.
So when did homos try to rape you?
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh no. You're like a Chihuahua, all bark, no bite.
So when did homos try to rape you?
No I'm just trying to stay light hear ted. And it's not me I am worried about getting raped I'm pretty sure I can handle my own. It's these gay priest in the catholic church who molest children. someone's got to stand up for the children don't you think??
I don't think it can be you. Know what I mean Vern.
why not?? If I raise enough hell.. and get others raiseing enough hell eventually they'll do something...
You have to raise awareness and inspire progress.
Raising hell just gets you cast down.
You don't have the skill sets.
Improve yourself first.
thank you for your patience sexobon...
Thanks for hearing me out.
Goodnight.
You know, not to be too paranoid or anything, but why do I think that just by having that statement out there on the Internet, a small check mark was made in an electronic file somewhere?
Not to worry, deep down in your heart you know they've already tagged the Cellar subversives. Just ask the flowerpot. :lol2:
oh you thought the preacher was telling the truth.. not any more...
To me, it's always seemed like any and all religeons have been used more as an excuse for bad behaviour.
I think the world would be a much better place if we just celebrated being good people instead of whichever icon happens to be telling you why you will go to hell.
Glad to see you here Shel.
I know you've dealt with plenty in your life, and this is only the internet. But I hated the idea of you coming back to your favourite coffee-shop only to find someone had pissed all over your usual table.
Your wit and unasked for kindness has enriched the Cellar.
Every now and then I notice the Make A Wish keyring and think of you; it's on the key that we use to lock the front door from the inside, so it's used every night.
See. I look at Shel and I see a good person. Someone willing to put his time and effort into helping others, who approaches the world with warmth and wit.
If there is a God and that God condemns someone like Shel, whilst welcoming the Duck Hunt tit, then that is a God I want no part of.
Probably a lesson some evangelists would do well to heed. Because they're doing a bang up job of pushing people further away from their sacred message.
Dana, if you're ever looking for a rational response to that type of evangelical, you might send them this video. (Way long, but way worth it, if you're interested in this kind of topic.)
[YOUTUBE]ezQjNJUSraY[/YOUTUBE]
Wow, Clodcobble, that was the best 1:07 of my whole year, thank you.
I watched it start to finish in one big bite. I have some thoughts on his presentation. Firstly, I agree with his conclusion; I felt that a response of loving support for others in my community who seek to build up themselves and strengthen my community has always been the right response. I am no Bible scholar, but I do know enough to follow his scholarly arguments. Which brings me to my first challenge / question for you. I can't think of anyone of my acquaintance whose opposition to homosexuality is based in scripture, who would also be patient enough to listen to such a detailed and well thought out argument, much less be swayed by it. The ones I know tend to put a full stop to their attention and to the end of the phrase "God said it, I believe it, that settles it." ending the discussion.
They are short thinkers, and I cannot abide them. Do you know such people? Have they been amenable to such discussions that so directly challenge their core beliefs?
Sure, I know such people. Mostly I just send them that video, if I think they might be receptive towards it. It has swayed some of them, though not all. *shrug* It's a question of earning people's trust first, and then sharing viewpoints with them. I know plenty of people who are very willing to discuss the finer nuances of what certain scripture may or may not mean, and they will acknowledge that plenty of it is clear as mud, but they'll only do it among other believers, for example, in the context of a Bible study. They won't give an inch if they think that your secret motive is to weaken their faith.
Thanks Sundae and Dana! But I'm not that good. ;-)