Merc - Wtf?
Seriously, Merc, wtf?
Come back man.
Or don't. #chiponmyshoulder #idontcare #stillholdingagrudge #hesstillanasshole
I would be very happy to see mercy return to the cellar. I don't know why he's not here, he may well have good reasons. I'm sure the other places he's spending his time are made better by his participation there, but his absence here is a net loss for us.
I do miss Mercy.
He could be a git, but there was a lot about him I liked.
And he participated across the forum (for good or bad) rather than being a one trick pony.
I'd like to see him back.
I've been in touch with him via FB. I even talked about this very issue.
Odds of his return are extremely small.
:celebrat:
sorry i'm not sorry but the guy's a gaping asshole.
:celebrat:
sorry i'm not sorry but the guy's a gaping asshole.
No he's not.
I note that you are emphatic in associating some words, some actions with a raging negative assessment of him as an individual, a person. An open forum like this is a glass house. Do you expect the same treatment based on some of your words or some of your actions?
I've been in touch with him via FB. I even talked about this very issue.
Odds of his return are extremely small.
Well, that's a damn shame.
Nobody who isn't fundamentally a shitty person does stuff like
this. He's a bigoted shitbag.
I've always liked Mercenary. I don't participate in the politics section, so he has never said anything to offend me. Frankly, I've seen many people jump on him pretty hard whenever he says anything not very PC (ok, that's a bit of an understatement.) Anyways, I miss him too. :D
That's a terrible thing for him to say to you.
I've seen that before, and I've seen a number of other statements that are shitty too. But there's a fundamental difference between what a person is, and what a person says. Of course that goes both ways. I've heard sweet nothings that came from the lips of people who acted very differently. Furthermore, we've all had the experience of speaking in anger, overreacting. I won't speak for mercy, nor for you. But I know that the words we see here are the barest sliver of what makes us whole, makes us human.
I'm not trying to change your mind, only you can do that. But I can assure you that there's a great difference between a person's words and a person's humanity.
Nobody who isn't fundamentally a shitty person does stuff like this. He's a bigoted shitbag.
Aw, did he hurt your feelings? I suggest you toughen up before you hit the real world, 'cause they're going to get hurt a lot more, with your readiness to "correct" people you don't do/say things your way.
I wasn't surprised Merc pulled out, he was getting a lot of abuse. Not just in the threads where people disagreed with him like politics, but nasty remarks in other threads. Christ, he even took shit for posting in the links you'd like to share thread. :rolleyes:
:celebrat:
sorry i'm not sorry but the guy's a gaping asshole.
Ibby you are a biased child with few life experiences. We support you with your constant drug usage and transexual lifestyle. Why can't you be more tolerant with those of different opinions?
I miss Merc. I felt he was a kindred soul
I refuse to tolerate intolerance. Tolerating intolerance is perpetuating intolerance. Merc's a bigot. Playing nice with bigots isn't a game I'm fond of.
You're certainly clever enough to see the contradiction, no, paradox in your first sentence. ha ha. It's like demanding respect or seizing the right of way. You can't take either one, you can only receive it from someone else. Not tolerating intolerance is the very definition of perpetuating intolerance.
What's your position on judgmental attitudes?
I deny that there is a paradox. "Tolerance" has multiple meanings/uses.
"I refuse to [abide or ignore] [racial, sexual, gender, or any other form of oppression/discrimination/hate]." is what I said. I just appreciate the wordplay.
if you want to defeat your enemy sing his song
I thought Merc was the sanest and most literate hard right-winger we had. With his departure it's left to UG and Adak. Granted, this means that I'm guaranteed a %100 winning streak, but it's like the opposing team went into the locker room and decided to play their second string for the second half.
I refuse to tolerate intolerance. Tolerating intolerance is perpetuating intolerance. Merc's a bigot. Playing nice with bigots isn't a game I'm fond of.
But you do tolerate your own intolerance toward people who see our species as having only two genders.
Merc is a grown man. Hes just not that into us.
I always liked having Merc around and I didn't always agree with him, but he backed up his words with reasons and beliefs rather than soundbites he learned to mimic form someone else.
I think Merc's leaving is a loss to the Cellar.
He could be crude to you at times, Ibby, but he didn't have the corner on that market. You've thrown offensive epithets like 'cunt' as a blanket insult at anyone who disagrees with your views. Your sig says you're a misandrist heterophobe and you believe your intolerance of those who don't agree with your views of sex and gender to be completely justified, yet you throw the word 'bigot' around without any sense of irony.
You have no life experience yet, which is not necessarily your fault, but a little of the modesty you claim for yourself would go a long way. You'll grow faster if you stop labeling people and realize that everyone has not just 2, but 22 sides. No one is worthless.
Face it, Merc meant far more to this board than Ibby. We've shown you tolerance and support even though you have a different set of norms/values. It seems to me that you are the bigot
[IMHO]Merc and I share a background which at any given time only a few thousand people in the world hold and among whom there are similarities in key aspects of their psychological profiles. While our paths haven't crossed outside the Cellar, I believe that Merc's interaction in the politics thread, current affairs thread, and with Ibby are non-factors in his non-participation. Same goes for the ribbing he's taken from dwellars (including me) on some of these subjects. Merc is thick skinned. I believe that Merc simply lost respect for members he had previously held in esteem when they allowed a thin skinned adult member of this community to hide behind their skirts by labeling Merc a bully. There are others who feel similarly, who expressed a similar opinion and reduced their participation. The Merc is conspicuous among them only because he ceased participation.
A difference between the Merc and I is that I was introduced to the Cellar by a former dwellar (Tonchi) who provided insight and I had time to do personality assessments as a lurker before registering. My expectations coming in were titrated to the community. That's why I've always said that I'm just here for the entertainment. Merc didn't have that advantage and Merc is disappoint. I don't blame him: I would be too. I can take it or leave it just as easily as Merc except that I knew coming into the community better than to reveal any of my current IRL information for others to judge me on; so, it's not detrimental for me to stay.[/IMHO]
Face it, Merc meant far more to this board than Ibby. We've shown you tolerance and support even though you have a different set of norms/values. It seems to me that you are the bigot
:lol: i'm a bigot for being against bigots. Kay.
:lol2:
This is like an Onion article, right?
Youse guys are funny.
[IMHO]I believe that Merc simply lost respect for members he had previously held in esteem when they allowed a thin skinned adult member of this community to hide behind their skirts by labeling Merc a bully. There are others who feel similarly, who expressed a similar opinion and reduced their participation. The Merc is conspicuous among them only because he ceased participation.
.[/IMHO]
I assume some of that is aimed at me?
If so that's a shame. I always liked Merc. I always clashed with him, and I thought he was being a bully at some points. But I still liked him.
@ Ibs: this thread was started because I miss Merc. I know, as do we all, that you don't. It doesn't need repeating every time anybody says something nice about him.
For all that I will stick up for you in the face of bigotry (as I hope you owuld do the same), there comes a point where your own hatred of intolerance can take you into an intolerant place. You say you hold a grudge? How is that not intolerance? You reduce other members to a single facet of their personality or history and can't see how dehumanising that is. People are not black and white they are every shade of grey.
All of us are prejudiced in some way. Most of us harbour some bigotry, whether we recognise it or not. It doesn't remove our essential humanity and, except in extreme cases, it doesn't define us. Grudges do you no favours in life. All they do is set or add to a deep core of negativity and anger. You can hate bigotry without hating the person behind it. Because that person is really not so different from you. May not seem like it sometimes, but they're really not.
All you are doing in your 'fight against bigotry' is perpetuating the hatred. Entrenching those whose views you despise, in those views. And frustrating those whose support is naturally yours. Someone comes for you, specifically, on the grounds of your gender and I'm there at your side. Someone posts outrageously bigotted comments and I'm in the argument. But this is just nastiness. It is no different to Merc coming into a thread about you and randomly posting how much he dislikes you. If the rest of the people in this thread were swayed by your words, then you would be engaging in a form of bullying, deliberately making the Cellar an unwelcoming place for another individual. You have not been attacked in this thread. Any attacks by Merc are in the past and are no part of this thread. You are the aggressor.
Well said, DanaC. I wish I had the gift of your words. I often am unable to express my opinion without seeming "hateful".
Ibby - I hope I have not offended you with my comments. I have always seen Merc as a friend and I felt like you were attacking him. Let's allow this thread to go back to the original intent.
Any attacks by Merc are in the past
Five YEARS in the past.
Around here, rapists get five years.
If you want to defeat your enemy sing his song. What would be Merc's response to finding that you and he had much in common? A reevaluation of everything.
When you hate, who do you hurt the most? Hate hurts
you.
I was guilty of tangling with merc constantly. His posts were often like fingernails on a chalkboard for me. He is more Heinlein whereas I'm more MacLeod, but we share some ideas. We could have used him during the election cycle, when the cellar totally lost its moorings. I was rooting for the President and I could see that as a group we'd left rationality at the door.
As a bulwark for tolerance, I'd suggest that Ibby follow up on his gun talk, join a club and really listen to what people are talking about. Don't listen for buzzwords or to be offended, listen for commonality. This advice goes for me as well.
For the most part, I'm with Ibby in this thread.
Telling Ibby for forget the harangues put upon him by Merc,
and to be more "tolerant" is disingenuous.
I don't remember Merc ever following that path.
Merc's remarks on many occasions were insensitive, and unacceptable to me.
He was smart enough, when sober, to know better,
but once he detected what he considered a flaw,
he seemed to delighted in offending, or trying to.
Politically, his latest signature said a lot about him.
And part of my signature line is directly in response to him.
Sometimes, insults can not and need not be forgotten or tolerated.
Merc was a mixed bag. When he posted in the non-political forums, he could be cool and interesting. I got a kick out of seeing the snakes he would find in his yard as just one example.
But in the politics forum, his posts were poison. And not just because I disagree with him politically. He would just be thoughtless and abrasive. Sometimes downright nasty.
My one regret is that as a moderator, I sent him a pm a couple days before he left, asking him to tone it down and be nicer. And then I went to bed. While I was sleeping, several dwellars absolutely tore into him in response to his latest negative comment, and made his comments seem almost benign in comparison. My attempt at being peacemaker was just a joke at that point. Merc told me he didn't enjoy the Cellar any more and wouldn't be back. I think I'm one of the people he lost respect for.
I think the Cellar is not in a particularly healthy place right now politically. There is no balance. The Cellar presidential exit poll showed that virtually everyone here is on team Obama, when the nation as a whole is split about 50/50. We could use some more conservatives here. But I'd like them to come without the nastiness of Merc. (It would be nice if Lookout would come back. He was a conservative who could back his positions up with rational and respectful arguments.)
I was of that opinion, but not allowing people to grow or show their decent side isn't the side of the angels either. I've tried to keep in mind that he was force fed indoctrination his entire adult life. He chose to be indoctrinated, but within the belief system he chose, he was one of the good guys. That the society he thought he was protecting might disagree with him was probably hard to process. <shrug> Ibby can be the bigger man by trying to understand others without sanctioning their attitudes or beliefs. <breaks up soapbox for kindling>
You know, if we're all going to give Merc a break, we should give Ibby a break, as well. What? If someone leaves the board, we can see their sterling qualities beneath all the tarnish, but if someone sticks around, everyone jumps on them? I can understand Ibby's point.
That said, Merc had a very kind side (despite his posts in the Politics Forum) that most folks were probably not aware of. Several years back I posted that I couldn't post pix because I didn't have a digital camera. Merc PM'ed me and offered to send me one of his own almost new cameras that he wasn't using. I accepted with great gratitude. I use that camera to this day and I often think of Merc when I use it, especially when I post pictures here.
And Merc and I continued to clash on Politics. Big deal.
... I assume some of that is aimed at me? ...
Just an educated guess at a rationale, not an accusation.
... I always clashed with him, and I thought he was being a bully at some points. ....
There is an age old, time tested, military technique for teaching cocky (self righteous) individuals humility so they can realize their full potential through the synergism of being a team player. I used to get paid to tear people down who outranked me, were more accomplished than I and who would someday be my boss knowing that I helped make them effective leaders rather than self centered ladder climbers who fall halfway up; because, they didn't have support from the base. A person employing this technique must use it judiciously and be diplomatic elsewhere to maintain its credibility. One can't be taking out the frustrations of their job, family, politics; or, unleashing under the influence elsewhere and expect everyone else to know that they're employing the technique in an isolated case and not just bullying. That takes a trained eye.
... You reduce other members to a single facet of their personality or history and can't see how dehumanising that is. People are not black and white they are every shade of grey. ...
Good people can have bad ideas. One must learn to separate the person from the idea and address each as such. Until Ibby figures out how to do this and put it into practice, Ibby is destined to be considered white trash.
... My attempt at being peacemaker was just a joke at that point. Merc told me he didn't enjoy the Cellar any more and wouldn't be back. I think I'm one of the people he lost respect for. ...
Merc knows the limited role of moderators here. He wouldn't have bothered telling you he was leaving if he didn't respect that you tried.
... <shrug> Ibby can be the bigger man by trying to understand others without sanctioning their attitudes or beliefs. <breaks up soapbox for kindling> ...
No, Ibby can't. This is why I didn't attempt what Merc did.
Maybe I was a tad harsh with Ibs. And no, I certainly wouldn't suggest she forget the things Merc said. Nor allow attacks to go unchallenged.
But holding grudges and wheeling them out when someone says something nice about the object of your grudge isn't helpful to anyone imo.
Maybe I was a tad harsh with Ibs.
But holding grudges and wheeling them out when someone says something nice about the object of your grudge isn't helpful to anyone imo.
I don't think you were too harsh, at all. I thought you expressed extremely well what some of us were trying to say. If all we get is a rolleyes response, that just tells us about Ibby.
You know, if we're all going to give Merc a break, we should give Ibby a break, as well. What? If someone leaves the board, we can see their sterling qualities beneath all the tarnish, but if someone sticks around, everyone jumps on them? I can understand Ibby's point.
That would not be in keeping with the Hypocritic Oath. ;)
The way to peace and justice is not through kumbayas and trying to see the humanity of oppressors. The way to peace and justice is through a continuous fight - yes, fight - against all oppressors, and all instances of oppression, starting with one's self. By denying humanity and respect to others, you give up your own right to have respect.
Think about all the non-violent, peaceful social movements from your history textbooks. the leaders of those movements are assassinated anyway almost every time, and it is only through the contrast between them and the radical resistance that the oppressors were forced to acquiesce to as little as they could let go of. in fact, the leaders of moderate social movements are almost always oppressors themselves, willing to sell out other groups to help their own. Ghandi said that the jews should all LET the nazis kill them, because if they kill enough of you maybe they'll feel bad and stop (they won't).
I will never make peace with oppressors and other proponents of evil, and I will never agree with most of you about whether or not being a bigot tarnishes someone's entire personality permanently.
Trying to empathize with, understand, humanize your oppressors gets people killed. real actual people getting really actually killed as a result of these systems of oppression, every single day. people like me. So you can go on about trying to understand and humanize some of the worst perpetrators of oppression, but you will never convince me.
I wonder who came up with that old phrase, 'Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity'. I always liked it, I mean, I can see some failings in the argument and all but the humour was diverting at least.
Sorry, I have nothing I can add sensibly to the thread, please carry on.
That was a perfectly cromulent addition to the thread. No apologies needed.
What's "cromulent" mean? :confused:
I am going to play Ibby's advocate here for a moment. Here is everyone bemoaning the loss of Merc's point of view because if I understand ya'll correctly, radical as he was, the Cellar benefits from having Dwellers who have a variety of outlooks and life experiences. I agree with this. I've learned any number of things here - some from people who violently opposed me. So, yes I miss Merc for that reason (and others), and I too would also love to see Lookout start posting here again as well.
But look at how passionate Ibby is in the defense of his beliefs. From the very start, I enjoyed his posts. Damn good for a 16 year old kid. And since he has returned, I continue to like reading what he has to say. I don't much get to discuss things with someone IRL - especially not where I now live - who is anything like Ibby.
You can't have it both ways, folks. Bemoan the loss of a member with extreme points of view while clobbering another who's still here because everyone doesn't like HIS point of view?
Nope. Doesn't work for me. Posts saying "We love you Merc, but we hate you Ibby" leave me feeling baffled and frankly wondering if Merc's reception would be one iota better if he ever did come back. It's dishonest. Sorry, everyone, but that's how I feel.
The kid's got spunk. If you respected Merc for his spirit, you have to respect Ibby as well. Even when you don't agree.
*goes to hide behind couch now* :hide:
*her point of view
just sayin'
;)
I
appreciated Merc's POV, not so much the spirit in which it was presented.
I
appreciate Ibby's POV, not so much the spirit in which it's presented.
Two peas of a pod, just from opposite ends.
... *goes to hide behind couch now* :hide:
You'd better hide; or, I'll tickle you!
What the hell are you two doing behind that couch?:mg:
Can I watch.:blush:
I will never make peace with oppressors and other proponents of evil, and I will never agree with most of you about whether or not being a bigot tarnishes someone's entire personality permanently.
It comes down to this: do you believe people can change, or do you believe it's impossible? It seems you're saying it's impossible. And
if it's impossible for anyone to change, then there's no point in fighting oppressors. They are what they are, and your only hope is that the babies being born today will happen to turn out differently than the bigot-babies did a generation ago.
The only reason to fight at all, is because you believe you might have a chance at changing people's minds. Which means bigotry can't be permanent.
It comes down to this: do you believe people can change, or do you believe it's impossible?
There's a third position - that some individuals are unchangeable, and others not. From which it follows that confronting one unredeemable bad guy (of whatever variety) might influence others into not becoming bad guys.
I missed the original interaction, so I'm just talking theoretical possibilities here.
I don't think anyone is saying that they hate Ibby. They're just saying his attitude is not right.
There's a third position - that some individuals are unchangeable, and others not. From which it follows that confronting one unredeemable bad guy (of whatever variety) might influence others into not becoming bad guys. ...
If it's the confrontation that matters, with or without a victory; then, the unredeemable bad guy who presents that opportunity is actually doing the other a favor by enabling that person to influence multiple others into not becoming bad guys. So there WAS a method to his madness in that Merc was just trying to help Ibby
indirectly all along. That Merc was genius enough to do this without having to undergo change himself was just icing on the cake. Thanks for explaining it.
I don't think anyone is saying that they hate Ibby. They're just saying his attitude is not right.
her attitude.
@Clodfobble:
The only reason to fight at all, is because you believe you might have a chance at changing people's minds.
Another, and maybe a better, reason is to not let bigoted remarks stand without challenge or renunciation.
If it's the confrontation that matters, with or without a victory; then, the unredeemable bad guy who presents that opportunity is actually doing the other a favor by enabling that person to influence multiple others into not becoming bad guys. So there WAS a method to his madness in that Merc was just trying to help Ibby indirectly all along. That Merc was genius enough to do this without having to undergo change himself was just icing on the cake. Thanks for explaining it.
Sure, just like the KKK was doing Blacks a favor by lynching a few
to keep the others from becoming bad guys. They were just trying to help all along.
And, they were genius enough to do this without having to under change, themselves... just icing on the cake.
There must be other examples.
Facetious, or :bs: ?
...It depends on your POV.
I don't think anyone is saying that they hate Ibby. They're just saying his attitude is not right.
her attitude.
poor attitude.
.. Another, and maybe a better, reason is to not let bigoted remarks stand without challenge or renunciation.
Letting them stand without acknowlegement, as with trolls, may be best.
Sure, just like the KKK was doing Blacks a favor by lynching a few to keep the others from becoming bad guys. They were just trying to help all along. And, they were genius enough to do this without having to under change, themselves... just icing on the cake.
There must be other examples.
Facetious, or :bs: ?
...It depends on your POV.
Lamp, I was toying with Zen because he's a good guy with a sense of humor who recognizes sarcasm.
Letting them stand without acknowlegement, as with trolls, may be best.
Yeah, Like no one here EVER feeds the trolls. And stop tickling me or you might make me laugh. :p:
If someone feels strongly enough about an issue, of course they should speak out. Even if their opinion is not popular. Even if everyone else disagrees.
When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.
- Wikiquote
For the record, I was not suggesting that Ibs allow bigoted comments to go unchallenged. If Merc were here now and made a bigoted comment, I imagine I'd be in the queue to slam that comment down.
But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about maintaining hostilities with another member on the boards. And we're talking about one member going out of their way to deliberately make the board unwelcoming to another member on any terms. However understandable the enmity I don't like that. I didn't like it when Merc was seemingly following Ibs round the board and posting nasty stuff, and I don't like it the other way around.
There's a time and a place for tackling bigotry, and it's when the bigotry is expressed.
I miss Merc. For all his flaws (as we all have) he added something to the board. Sometimes what he added was unpleasant, and sometimes what he added was enlightening or fun. But he was part of the Cellar and not just in a two dimensional political debate way. he was part of it enough for some of us to see past the abrasive and occasionally nasty stuff to the decent bloke underneath.
Nobody is all good, and nobody is all bad. Merc has his flaws, but he also has admirable qualities. One of which was a tendency, when the shit hit the fan, to go off and consider the situation and just occasionally, hold up his hand and admit something was his fault and that what he had said was unacceptable.
But realy this thread wasn;t started as an assessment of Merc's flaws and qualities. It was just a call out, if he's reading, that he is missed. Not by everybody. But by some. Like any of us really.
poor attitude.
I think you mean poor pitiful me attitude.
For the record, I was not suggesting that Ibs allow bigoted comments to go unchallenged.
Only his/her/neosexual/noncisgender/trans/tranny/whatever's own bigoted comments.
But realy this thread wasn;t started as an assessment of Merc's flaws and qualities. It was just a call out, if he's reading, that he is missed. Not by everybody. But by some. Like any of us really.
I agree!
Well on one hand, angry idealism is such a masculine quality. But a five-year grudge over one insensitive comment is something only a chick would do.
~ i kid the ibster ~
Another, and maybe a better, reason is to not let bigoted remarks stand without challenge or renunciation.
If someone feels strongly enough about an issue, of course they should speak out. Even if their opinion is not popular. Even if everyone else disagrees.
For the record, I was not suggesting that Ibs allow bigoted comments to go unchallenged. If Merc were here now and made a bigoted comment, I imagine I'd be in the queue to slam that comment down.
Right. Because people's minds
can be changed, and bigotry doesn't
have to be permanent. As was my point.
Merc would never change his views.
and as far as holding a grudge for five years....well, yes, I have. When i was feeling low and he suggested I commit suicide-that rather clinched it for me. Yes, let's all sing of our hail fellow Merc who was mean, cruel, bullying person. He would NEVER change his views or let the light of reason slap him across his face.
Let's lament his going.
so long, merc! don't let the door hit ya in the ass as you leave!
you're all romancing him. He was a total mean, hateful, bigoted asswipe. all this going on about his wonderfulness and ability to engage as a human-ha~! you are all far, FAR too PC. He wouldn't cross the street to shit on most of you. ESp. the like of you liberals-which is everyone but himself and a few select others. I started a thread on Paula Deen once for christsakes and he couldn't keep his bigoted mouth shut even about THAT.
Le Douche Bag-Farewell. I will NOT miss you.
Well on one hand, angry idealism is such a masculine quality. But a five-year grudge over one insensitive comment is something only a chick would do.
I DID see this. the above is in reply.
It's a comment that is beneath you, Toad.
I DID see this. the above is in reply.
It's a comment that is beneath you, Toad.
At the risk of losing all my sexiness points in one fell swoop, I thought UT's crack was kind of funny.
When i was feeling low and he suggested I commit suicide-that rather clinched it for me
I reprimanded him for that too, and
yet on the other hand if you want to judge people with the most optimism about who they are:
Like I said. I had no idea about the individuals history or I never would have made the comment. Ever. I am not out to hurt broken people.
So. You have nearly 4 years on this grudge. Feel free, you're welcome to it, but I can't see living life that way. Too much wasted energy. You found something to hate him for, perhaps because you wanted to with his outrageous points of view. But when you hate, who do you hurt the most? Hate hurts you. Hate hurts you!
If you want to defeat your enemy SING HIS SONG
UT, When it happens once, it's an accident or mistake.
When it is repeated time and again... it's reputation.
Hmm.
In my opinion, intolerance of intolerance is still intolerance. Tolerance does not involve neutrality, it, by it's very definition, requires that you disagree with whom/whatever you are tolerating. Also, tolerating a person and/or idea is much different from tolerating behavior. Disagreeing with someone's opinion is not a personal indictment of their character.
I didn't care for many of Merc's political/social stances, but liked a lot of other facets of him - his family, work ethic, kids, etc.
And yes, I quite enjoy interacting with people of opposing views, as long as it doesn't get personally aggressive. I like the growth that comes from trying to understand where people I disagree with are coming from. And if I find someone is behaving in a way that I will not tolerate, instead of trying to change THEM, I just remove myself from the interaction.
...When i was feeling low and he suggested I commit suicide-that rather clinched it for me...
I was prepared to offer the undertaker a large pile of cash. :o
He wouldn't cross the street to shit on most of you. ESp. the like of you liberals-which is everyone but himself and a few select others. I started a thread on Paula Deen once for christsakes and he couldn't keep his bigoted mouth shut even about THAT.
So you would rather the Cellar be a cuddlefest, than hear/know what a very large segment of the population thinks?
At the risk of losing all my sexiness points in one fell swoop, I thought UT's crack was kind of funny.
Me too. Well, no points at risk, but the funny.
Hmm.
In my opinion, intolerance of intolerance is still intolerance. Tolerance does not involve neutrality, it, by it's very definition, requires that you disagree with whom/whatever you are tolerating. Also, tolerating a person and/or idea is much different from tolerating behavior. Disagreeing with someone's opinion is not a personal indictment of their character.
I didn't care for many of Merc's political/social stances, but liked a lot of other facets of him - his family, work ethic, kids, etc.
And yes, I quite enjoy interacting with people of opposing views, as long as it doesn't get personally aggressive. I like the growth that comes from trying to understand where people I disagree with are coming from. And if I find someone is behaving in a way that I will not tolerate, instead of trying to change THEM, I just remove myself from the interaction.
Not up to a coherent contribution today, but I like the way Stormie put this. And the quote from UT (Merc saying he would never have said what he did if he'd known the background) - doesn't make it okay for Merc to have said that, but illustrates the point about separating words from person.
Merc knows where he stands with many of the posters here. And he knows the kind of push back he will get if he were to come back without moderating his aggresively insulting posting style. Maybe Glatts pm to him finally made him realize that he went too far and doesnt really have the support here that he thought he had. Not too many people will tolerate repeatedly dickish behavior.
Advice to Merc: Send more Dwellers digital cameras. Put breathalyzer on computer. Wait 24 hours before hitting "send."
[[post=841335]Trilby impersonation[/post]] :crone: [/Trilby impersonation]
[[post=841176]Ibby impersonation[/post]] :rolleyes: [/Ibby impersonation]
[[post=841270]Ibby @ 50 impersonation[/post]] :crone: [/Ibby @ 50 impersonation]
Shane, Come Back! Shane.
fify
:D
I seriously doubt merc's claim of "not knowing" about me and my condition - he certainly made enough cracks about me being 'mentally unstable' and 'are you taking your meds?' BEFORE the 'go ahead and take all your sleeping pills at once' comment. Whenever he got caught he'd get this What? ME? kind of attitude. And his claim that I am somehow 'broken'-? Like a defective toy? that was backhanded too. see thru the snake's misty talk and you will see the snake behind the bullshit. However, you are right, Tony, I must forgive him if I am to be fully functioning and happy. Truth be told those of you who are sorry he is gone, I'm so very sorry for your loss. I hope you find another person to spar with as it seems so much fun for you to take on people=== though your discourse with merc was far from fairsided-he was so up in his own shit he could not listen to you with your reasonableness, etc. He could only yell and call names and when he truly hurt someone look astonished and cry "I never KNEW!!!!!" And to say I am broken because I"m on meds? isn't that to say everyone on psych meds is 'broken'---? and he knew it. He's simply a liar.
No, I don't want a cuddlefest. I've had my own fights on here. I've learned to tolerate what can't be cured-I don't hit people over the head----anymore. it does no good for one thing. It changes exactly NOTHING. you change people by civil argument and backing facts. IF that person is willing to listen instead of simply attack. Merc was all about the attack. Oh, sure, once in a while he'd throw a bone of humanity out there in a recipe thread or something else but mostly it was "i'm white, I'm rich, i'm better than you, you're broken and run to the doctor whenever anything is wrong you crybaby....etc etc" that last was a comment he made when I was talking about going to the doc for something or other. Yeah, I have a lot to not like about him. I, though, enjoy his gone-ment. His hatred. His fear. His entitlement because he's white and rich. Oh, yes, he let us alllllll know how wealthy he was - kind of like that rkzenrage guy letting us allllll know how very intelligent he was. In my neighborhood if you gotta say it you can't play it.
I'm so happy for those of you who were lucky enough to be knighted presents by this asshole. He's happy to buy the lot of you and would probably come back here just to claim he could.
I didn't hate him for ONE thing he said, I hated him for EVERYthing he said. He treats women like shit; is a know-it-all ("people who go to Paula Deen's restaurant are ignorant she sucks, blah blah blah) look: I can't stand the guy. I"m allowed to hate him. that doesn't mean I've wasted anymore time than it took to write this thread-which was five pages long when I voiced my opinion--to waste energy on him.
Trilby, if Merc had posted to me what he posted to you (and what he posted to Ibs, for that matter), I wouldn't forget it, either - probably not after 5 years or 10 years or even 20. That was incredibly cruel and there was no excuse for it. NONE!
In the end, Merc could dish it out but he couldn't take it. He got upset and left because his posts didn't inspire a universal outpouring of love? Poor baby. Too bad.
Let me clarify a little. I regret the loss of a different point of view. I have no regret what-so-ever for the absence of posts that were written in the spirit of one of the meanest trolls around. He showed you his very worst side. He showed me that he could be better than that.
Maybe that's what it comes down to. Merc was capable of being human, but all too often, he chose to be a miscreant instead. In some ways, that's worse then being uniformly "evil." Unlike some, Merc had the ability to rise above. All too often, he chose not to.
Let me clarify a little. I regret the loss of a different point of view. I have no regret what-so-ever for the absence of posts that were written in the spirit of one of the meanest trolls around.
Exactly. His problem wasn't that he
had a different point of view; it was that instead of
posting a different point of view, he would post an insult.
Only his/her/neosexual/noncisgender/trans/tranny/whatever's own bigoted comments.
Don't use that word. It's a slur. It's deeply associated with the
near-daily murder of trans* women. It's very much on par with other racial/ethnic slurs. Don't use it.
Don't use that word. It's a slur. It's deeply associated with the near-daily murder of trans* women. It's very much on par with other racial/ethnic slurs. Don't use it.
I'm deleting it from my lexicon right now.
I'm deleting it from my lexicon right now.
:)
I'm deleting it from my lexicon right now.
And I will refer to Ibby as "she" from now on. ;)
Well, I still like Merc. He was good to me. If someone has a problem with that you can fuck-off. Even if I don't always agree with my friends, I refuse to turn my back on them.
Trilby - I never knew Merc said those things to you and for that I am truly sorry
It's okay to be friends with an asshole. It's not okay to excuse them for it because they're your friend.
Are you threatening Merc's life?
I see you don't deny it.
What a stinkin' act of cowardice to come here and threaten someone's life while hiding behind the anonymous account.
No, of course I wasn't threatening Merc's life! I should have worded that better. I'll turn it back over to Sam.
:lol: ... I know. I was just having a little fun. See what I did there? Awhile ago, I went into the anonymous account and put myself on ignore so the next anonymous user wouldn't be able to read my replies in a timely fashion. Unless they figured it out right away, they'd have to jump back and forth between accounts just to make an untimely followup. Thanks for the entertainment! Tickle, tickle. :p:
Sorry. That just came off really, really wrong. I only meant that Merc's not coming back HERE.
For what it's worth, I went back and re-read some of the threads that were posted right before both Merc's and monster's departures, trying to understand the dynamics of what went on. I still don't understand about monster being a bully, and I gave up trying to figure that one out.
Merc's last few posts and the replies he got made me feel tired. Enough is enough already. I didn't even feel like responding to this thread as me any more.
I'm going to take the advice you posted awhile back, and ignore this entire topic about why ANYONE stays or leaves.
Again, I apologize. It was a stupid way to post. And if I post anything in this thread again, you all can kill ME (metaphorically, of course).
wait howthefuck did i miss monster leaving? someone drop me a link? i've been living too much in Politics/Current Events lately, i'm outta the loop!
:lol: ... I know. I was just having a little fun. See what I did there? Awhile ago, I went into the anonymous account and put myself on ignore so the next anonymous user wouldn't be able to read my replies in a timely fashion. Unless they figured it out right away, they'd have to jump back and forth between accounts just to make an untimely followup. Thanks for the entertainment! Tickle, tickle. :p:
OK, you really got me, didn't you? You, you - BULLY, you! But thanks for the useful tip re Anon. Oh, and I was actually completely logged off as a "guest" when I read your reply.
wait howthefuck did i miss monster leaving? someone drop me a link? i've been living too much in Politics/Current Events lately, i'm outta the loop!
You probably wouldn't want to know, Ibby. Reading old history of Dwellers behaving badly toward one another is too depressing - for me, anyhow.
And now I guess I get to be killed because I replied to this thread again. :p:
... i'm outta the loop!
Not at all, you're still loopy.
:rotflol:
I kill me.
I kill me.
Forget Merc. I'm going to kill YOU! :D
I can feel there's a whole lotta love in the room right now.
Yes, it's a natural result of being trolled and triangulated.
I still don't understand about monster being a bully, and I gave up trying to figure that one out.
Because you're right, Sam, she's not.
Arbitrary labels come and go so quickly around here.
Such a crap thread.
Well excuse me all for creating such a crap thread.
Merc's name came up a few times recently in relation to Adak. Thenn the other day I was at my Bro's watching carrot play with Ruby, their young rhodesian ridgeback, and I remembered Merc's rhodesians. And that got me thinking and just casually reminiscing about various things including a few missing dwellars and I posted a call out.
The next time I casually think about the fact I miss a departed dwellar I'll just keep quiet about it.
I'm sorry this all got so derailed, Dana. Obviously you didn't create a crap thread; it was ruined by someone else's narcissistic agenda. I'd hate to see good-hearted people feel that it's not worth reaching out to whomever they want.
You know what? I followed this thread all weekend, determined not to say anything.
Trilby was right on: merc DID know her background when he made the suicide suggestion. He wasn't sorry because he didn't know, he was sorry because UT called him out. merc was nothing if not a coattail riding opportunist.
Though I know his money was well-respected. He liked recognition for that.
What an insult to suggest, throughout, that he was a good good man. A good man. A misunderstood man.
And those who know he wasn't a good man, well, they're just not good-hearted.
BS.
Things got too quiet after the election and when better to throw a spanner in the works? Read this thread. Look how fucking divisive it got. Look at how people argued and got angry and called names. It's the worst kind of manipulation, the kind that ends with a "who ME?" But it's fitting, since merc was the very best at "who ME?"
Agendas? Funny, I was going to post over the weekend "there are five personal agendas in this thread. Can you find them all?" You know who you are.
Now I bet I'm a douche.
I never said he was a 'good good man'. In fact I have on many occasions including in this thread said he could be (and often was) a dick.
Like I said, next time I find myself wondering how whatshisface is getting on or whether whatshername will ever come back I'm just going to keep my thoughts to myself. It's just not worth saying anything.
Look how fucking divisive it got. Look at how people argued and got angry and called names.
I find it amusing that merc can start a flame war after he's gone.
In my opinion, intolerance of intolerance is still intolerance.
Yeah, that's a tough one there, that's what that is. It's like there are multiple kinds of tolerance/intolerance.
There's the "we're going to round up all you jews and kill you, because we can't tolerate you".
There's the "I don't want to marry someone of my own gender, but I'll tolerate your doing so".
There's the "I will not tolerate the inequality of African Americans, and I will make you treat them equally"
I never said he was a 'good good man'. In fact I have on many occasions including in this thread said he could be (and often was) a dick.
Like I said, next time I find myself wondering how whatshisface is getting on or whether whatshername will ever come back I'm just going to keep my thoughts to myself. It's just not worth saying anything.
Well, that isn't exactly what I meant. I just let it build up over the weekend...it seemed so ridiculous to me.
You should let people know you're missing them. I'm sorry about that part.
But I know about him jumping on people and it seemed that so many forgot. LIke the Paula Deen thing...he put me down and embarrassed me for saying I loved Joe Montana, for pete's sake.
Toward the end of his being here I had even gotten to the point where I could ignore him and talk to him if he weren't being an ass. Well, I'm doing better, but I am not quite there by a long shot. Still and all, I think he was very intentionally cruel to people when he wanted to be. No, none of us are perfect, least of all me...but he was pretty horrible at times.
I should have stayed shut up...but I guess I'm not done playing in the hay in the bitter barn, quite yet.
I knew he could be a cruel bastard, but he seemed to go in waves. He'd get worse and worse and then pull back. Usually he'd then take a break and sometimes he'd come back and apologise.
I have no idea about the Paula Deen thing. I don't even know who that is :P Nor Joe Montana come to that.
I seriously did not start this thread to cause an argument or troll for responses. Had I given it any thought beyond the initial wondering I'd have refrained from posting it as clearly the potential for it to turn nasty was always there.
Yes, it's a natural result of being trolled and triangulated.
I didn't realize my mom was a dwellar. How did the two of you meet?
Well excuse me all for creating such a crap thread.
Jesus Dana, WTF were you thinking starting such a crap thread? We expect a whole lot more than this from you. This will absolutely kill any goodwill toward you that you had left.
Some people...
Seriously though Dana, you go and make those unpopular threads. I will lay down Jim's life for your right to do so. And I think I speak for many dwellars when I say that.
Jim? He's a knob. Everyone knows that. :lol:
I kid jim, because jim is kiddable.
I agree it was probably me pushing him that got him to apologize. He WAS a dick. And yet, we've all got to figure out how to get along. Humanity needs to unite and come together.
But how? We don't drop our prejudices easily and we don't drop them overnight, we learn over time. How do you change a guy like Merc? I guess there are different ways... to me, you demonstrate to him that you are a sensitive and valuable human being, and then he has to admit that you have a different but valid point of view. Of course he failed to do that himself...
Or, to your great surprise, he tells you things that you learn to be true. We can all learn from each other. There are things he knows that he's right about.
Well excuse me all for creating such a crap thread.
~snip~
The next time I casually think about the fact I miss a departed dwellar I'll just keep quiet about it.
Threads are like toy boats, you set them sailing and watch them drift, you have no control.
Not to start a thread because it might drift someplace unpleasant, is silly. :rolleyes:
Yeah, well, I'm feeling touchy today :p
Oww, touch me, touch me! :blush:
I didn't realize my mom was a dwellar. How did the two of you meet?
Jesus Dana, WTF were you thinking starting such a crap thread? We expect a whole lot more than this from you. This will absolutely kill any goodwill toward you that you had left.
Some people...
Seriously though Dana, you go and make those unpopular threads. I will lay down Jim's life for your right to do so. And I think I speak [for many dwellars when I say that.
*rises up from the dead*
:rotflol:
@Dana - Everyone understands that you didn't have some skewed agenda for starting this thread. The problem is that you started it about someone who many people have had issues with - to put it mildly. You are an extremely tolerant and forgiving person and in that regard you're a far better woman than I. Don't beat yourself up because the rest of us are a bunch of grudge carrying trolls.
I find it amusing that merc can start a flame war after he's gone.
I was thinking the exact same thing. I bet Merc would be proud if he read this.
*returns to zombie land*
In the last six months or so I deliberately tuned out of the more squabbly threads. And I think I am a bit aspergerish, which I'm glad of at the moment, because it works a s a social insulator and I had no idea at all about half of this stuff. I did think merc was often a dick, though.
Now, if 0.9r = 1, then the square and cube of 0.9r must also = 1, and the infiniteth power of 0.9r = 1 ...
So is the 0.9r'th power of 0.9r.
That's exactly the sort of thing HITLER would have said.
There, I lose, we're done.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but why is this thread about whether Ib thinks Merc should come back or not?
Personally I think they both behaved like shitheads to each other, so they both deserved whatever stains they have left over from that, but really, this is nothing to do with anything except that some of us would be glad to see Merc return, and believe me, he and I have had some doozies of arguments at times and yes there was name calling, but jeez, it's just words on a message board, and not a slap in the face.
I'm pretty sure I'd be right when I said that Merc mostly just came here for entertainment and although he believed in his politics, it was the opposite responses he got from others that amused him the most. He respected those who stood up to him without getting all nancy pants about it.
Cry me a river if you got offended.
I think Merc was valuable to this place and we're all losers because he's gone. I've said it many times. I miss my interactions with him here, and it seems I'm not the only one.
He is a true friend to me. Probably one of the best people I've ever met here, and believe me, that is a big compliment because there are a large number of people here who I hold in very high regard because of their guts or their brains or just plain old determination.
We can't all get along, but we don't have to dog pile when one member gets offended or upset with another. Surely we don't have to take sides. Surely we can either just watch them sort it out or just keep out of it all together.
Maybe we'd still have the diversity that was once part of what made this place interesting if that were allowed to occur.
Oh and also, if we're to be judged on things that were said five years ago, then I guess Jim and I should still be at each other's throats and I should be fighting with Trilby and and and...
for christs sake, get over it.
eta: I read the Upset thread after this one. I guess things are not as 'ok' as I thought they were. :(
Also, I didn't read most of the second page of this thread till just now.
Anyway, rightly or wrongly, I still miss Merc and consider him a friend. I wish he were still here.
I also wish others were still here, like Tonchi (who I only realised was a friend of sexo's thanks to this thread) and even Maggie and Radar. Maybe even some of those weirdo's from that PD site. Some of them were almost as weird as some of the weirdo's here. Actually, I always thought they were kind of like the alternate but parallel world of the cellar. There were characters there who reminded me of characters from here...but were just slightly different. Am I the only one who thought that, and if so, I guess I'm the main weirdo. If not, would you care to discuss?
I'm not fighting with you. It doesn't pay. There is No make up sex with people from the future.
Dammit you two, I clearly Goodwinned this thread.
No, you godwinned yourself. We just rifle you pockets and step over the body. :p:
I'm not fighting with you. It doesn't pay. There is No make up sex with people from the future.
I guess you could just keep on dreaming about it.
That's what keeps me going. ;)
Bruce!!! That's filthy! lol
The reason merc hasnt been around ,
[YOUTUBEWIDE]iW4429MJsGI[/YOUTUBEWIDE]
... Merc? ... There are things he knows that he's right about.
Right wing vs. left wing most understated pun of the year.
Wow. 100+ posts for what? Mostly you're all bickering amongst yourselves over someone who most of you know nothing about.
Dana, you tried to do a good thing. don't beat yourself up for that.
Ibs - FUCK YOU. You were every bit as much a dick to him as he was to you.
What one posts here is certainly not the whole of that person. For example, when Merc heard of my son's accident from Jim's post on here, he got my number somehow ( I still don't know how) & called me a few days later. Offered ANYTHING, anything he could to help me out. He stayed on the phone with me while I cried for hours. When my son came home and I didn't have the money to buy him a cane, the fucker sent me a check to buy my son, and I quote, "a cool cane for a cool kid." Who the fuck does that?
Tony needed a car - Merc contributed very generously if I recall. Sam's camera example is another. Ask Tony about his tip jar donations. I'm sure there are others I'm not aware of. He is one of the most generous people I've met.
Was he a dick and totally over the top at times? Yup, no question about it. I sent him PM's more than once telling him to STFU. Who the heck hasn't said shit they didn't mean out of anger, alcohol use/abuse whatever? Look in the mirror.
I left here for while because the bullshit got so fucking deep it was sickening and it made me more of a bitter, shitty person. Thats a stark contrast from a time when I thought you people here were the closest "friends" I had. I came here to give and get advice & to share my life - both good and godawful. No matter what, I could count on your support and honesty. I don't feel that way anymore, or not enough to keep me participating on a daily basis - and that SUCKS. It makes me sad, really sad.
Fukkit.
Wow. Just wow. Although my absence is largely due to other reasons I really couldn't have written a better explanation than this thread for why my absence from the cellar didn't bother me more.
Merc was/is an asshole.
Ibby was/is an asshole.
You were/are a bunch of whiney bandwagon hopping assholes.
I was/am an asshole.
Grow the fuck up. Would you really say some of this shit to someone's face? Really? Really Really? If your answer is anything beyond staring at your shoes and whimpering like a dog that pissed on the floor, then shame on you.
I'm disgusted with us.
Lookout! What a surprise! I wish you would have made your return (which I assume is a brief one) in another thread. What's the point of being nasty to everyone else in order to inform them how nasty THEY are? I always thought better of you, and now I'm disappointed.
This should be called the "poison thread" and have a warning come on your computer screen that the reader stands a high chance of coming away angry or depressed or both. Often no good comes from posting to it. I only replied because I was surprised to see your name. I wish you better days and a sunnier disposition.
Actually, I'm not angry, depressed, or down. Disappointed, yes. Did I happen to catch your attention because I dared to type out that I, you, and most of the participants have been assholes? Then good.
Now put it in context. Have you, SamIam, been an asshole? I don't know. I haven't and won't go back to read all the hundreds of threads I've missed. Have you, SamIam, been a part of the community that seems to have moved on from being a community of wildly different philosophies, lifestyles, politics, communication styles, economic brackets, and any other demographic category imaginable to become something less? Yes? Then SamIam and Lookout should feel some measure of shame.
I get that this is the cellar and is really just a webbased bulletin board, but I always thought of it as something more. I really did feel it was a legitimate community where I could genuinely learn what other people thought and felt; not just those of similar political schools (obviously I lean right) but also those that are 1 to 180 degrees away from my views. I edged my way out of daily participation because I felt we were losing that but assumed it was my own sensitivities at play. (it's possible they still are)
I popped back in to find just pure nastiness directed at anyone who veers from the homogenized "correct" view of things. I find it offensive.
It is your fault. You are here and allow it to happen. It is my fault because I perceive this as an undesireable state of existence and chose to walk away rather than attempt to influence it. It is Jim's fault because... well, he's Jim.
So anyway, Sam - if I have personally offended you, I apologize for my lack of skill in expressing my thoughts. I meant no individual personal insult. I am, however, disappointed in us as a group.
I believe the cellar was more than this. I believe the cellar IS more than this. I commit to returning and attempting to express my views in a non-insulting but certainly divisive manner more often as I get my personal affairs in order.
Oh, and fuck Jim. [COLOR="White"] I say that purely because my introduction to the cellar was having my ass shredded by LJ over my political and religious views. He slapped me down for the newb I was, but in such a manner that I was compelled to return and present myself more coherently. So thanks Jim. You are one of my all time favorite dwellars. You asshole.[/COLOR]
Well, crap.
Catharsis can be good, sometimes.
ETA Composed before I had read lookout's most recent post (126). Was a comment on the overall situation.
EtalsoA oh and welcome back, Lookout!
Actually, I'm not angry, depressed, or down. Disappointed, yes. Did I happen to catch your attention because I dared to type out that I, you, and most of the participants have been assholes? Then good.
Well, this thread depressed ME. You happened to catch my attention because I saw your user name - something that hasn't happened in ages.
Now put it in context. Have you, SamIam, been an asshole?
LOL! What a question! As you very well know, I can be a real bitch at times. I'm working on that, but sometimes my inner bitch still demands to escape and run free. What's a girl to do?
I don't know. Have you, SamIam, been a part of the community that seems to have moved on from being a community of wildly different philosophies, lifestyles, politics, communication styles, economic brackets, and any other demographic category imaginable to become something less? Yes? Then SamIam and Lookout should feel some measure of shame.
What's the point of asking me a question when you've decided you already know the answer? You haven't gone back and read any posts, but you've decided that I (and you) failed some Cellar litmus test and must now go around hanging our heads in shame. You're certainly free to do as please, feel all the shame you want, but ddon't try to unload all your nuggets of coal on me.
I've learned quite a few things on the Cellar, and these days I try to post stuff that may be interesting or comforting or whatever in return.
If your plan is to come back here and be as mean as you've been in your two posts here, then you'll get what you give. Excuse me for not meeting your standards.
@ Ali - forgive me if I am not "over" such a horrible thing. Do I forgive merc? Sure. He's human-ish after all.
He hurt me on a grand scale. I suppose I shall never like him or forget what he did to me. When a person is in a suicidal state of mind....well, need I really expand on that?
and if a Dwellar's love and respect can be bought-how much? I'll try to buy---I mean MEET----all of your needs then you'll love me and defend me till Jim's death the way the Universe means it to be.
Ali, Ali---we forgave each other long ago. I still don't get how you, a committed liberal with waaaaaay socialist views, got to be so tight with a man so completely opposite in his views. Actually, his views were MY views when we used to fight; then, largely because of Dana, my views changed and as far as I knew, you were still a cheerleader for the left. Your sig line even read "Apparently I'm a leftie" or some such. Then you go and gush all over merc? I never saw you get angry with him-----maybe you did, I don't read everything of course. I DO recall you telling him to 'cool it, mate' once when he was being way, waaaaaay over the top with a newbie (his favorite food).
I've no animosity towards you. I've changed my views. Even if someone IS a raving right-winger I can still learn, be their friend, etc. I don't have to suffer a bully who is being a bully for self aggrandizement and an "I'm better than you" bullshit attitude which he has in spades.
quote classicman: "Who the fuck does that?"
bruce, for one. Actually, bruce does it quite often to many different dwellars because he genuinely likes to be generous.
and when I was sick I got LOADS of books, soft socks, a hat, loads of things. all from dwellars. I passed all my cancer books on to ortho. We don't all sing our own praises. mostly it;s just done.
I didn't get anything from Merc before he left. I was hoping for a machine gun or some hand grenades to use for hunting and fishing respectively; but, noooooooooo. All I got was dwellars sloppy seconds, those whom he had his way with then tossed aside. I am disappoint.
I think that the cellar is weakened by the absence of Dwellars like Merc, Monster, Lookout, Classic (though not absent as much lately) Lumberjim, and a number of others. I often don't agree with them on certain political issues, but it is pretty boring to be surrounded by a bunch of replicants.
I am not as likely to engage in fierce debate, if I disagree with someone I rarely feel the need to get all butthurt and contentious about it, partly out of my personality and partly that I find it really hard to keep track of things and hard to "keep score" (one of the reasons why my marriage has gone on long past its "sell by" date--Not keeping track and score makes it hard to have arguments backed up by examples) But I am glad that there are posters here who are willing to argue and get all butthurt; it keeps things, to be cliche, real. Or at least realer-ish.
I'll tell ya what, foot. If MaggieL ever comes back I'll pink pistol her to fucking Moonrise Kingdom with her own damn pistol!
then I shall laff at her and her best friend, the straw man whom I shall slowly and methodically burn to death in a sinister and delightful s'morish kind of way.
Howzat?
quote classicman: "Who the fuck does that?"
bruce, for one. Actually, bruce does it quite often to many different dwellars because he genuinely likes to be generous.
Kudos to BigV as well.
There have been a few reasonable posts, but overall this thread sucks. It reminds me of why I take breaks from this place. Add that to Lookout's attack on me, and I realize that the Cellar is not a healthy place for me to be spending my time - not right now, anyhow. I'm outta here. :bolt:
Seriously, Foot, to whine about the whiners is just as bad.
I still don't get how you, a committed liberal with waaaaaay socialist views, got to be so tight with a man so completely opposite in his views.
Ah, this seems to be the crux of the Cellars ills... and the country's ills.
Political philosophy, left or right, my way is the right way, your way is the highway. This is what I am and how I live my life.
Well you know what, thats bullshit. Nobody does that, nobody. How you feel about any subject doesn't stem from left or right. It's always personal experiences of you, friends, or family, that cause your opinion. Most people forget they have an opinion, not the answer.
I have two friends. One is a hard right Teapublican, the other is a don't care/don't vote. Occasionally the Teapublican and I argue politics, while the other guy rolls his eyes. But we are still friends, because there's a whole lot more to people and life, than religion and politics.
I've always been an opinionated motherfucker, suspicious but curious about people who are different. The Cellar has exposed me to a shitload of people who are different, to say the least.:lol: But like soylent green, it's people.
We have things we share in common, and things we disagree on, but most interesting is why. What in your life caused your opinion to differ from mine. You people have certainly caused me to change my opinion on some things, and reinforced my opinion on others.
I thank you for that... and the boobs. :blush:
(I'm not singling out Trilby, she just happen to state what I think is a/the problem with much of the world.)
I had a thread where I specifically asked people to insult me.
As I recall it was a very popular thread...:p
I'll tell ya what, foot. If MaggieL ever comes back I'll pink pistol her to fucking Moonrise Kingdom with her own damn pistol!
then I shall laff at her and her best friend, the straw man whom I shall slowly and methodically burn to death in a sinister and delightful s'morish kind of way.
Howzat?
Sounds great to me. If rkzenrage comes back can you take care of him too?
Seriously, Foot, to whine about the whiners is just as bad.
Hi Pico! Where have you been hiding? Was I whining about whiners, or are you just saying? I guess one could opacity to my list of shortcomings.
I had a thread where I specifically asked people to insult me.
We're just too darn sophisticated and worldly to confine our insults to any one thread. We have to outsult each other across all of them.
FWIW - none of the other generous people here were the subject of this thread. Several of them have done much for me personally as well. However, if you want to take those others like Jim, Big V, Bruce etc. and equate them and their actions to those of Merc. All I have to say is thank you, you proved my point for me. Unfortunately, instead of reflecting upon what I tried to say, you, as usual, chose to point fingers. Sad, but typical.
Lookout & Bruce, as usual, were far better in expressing much of what I tried to convey last night.
You were just wound up... and your father smelt of elderberries. :p:
FWIW - none of the other generous people here were the subject of this thread. Several of them have done much for me personally as well. However, if you want to take those others like Jim, Big V, Bruce etc. and equate them and their actions to those of Merc. All I have to say is thank you, you proved my point for me. Unfortunately, instead of reflecting upon what I tried to say, you, as usual, chose to point fingers. Sad, but typical.
Lookout & Bruce, as usual, were far better in expressing much of what I tried to convey last night.
Don't cry for me, Classictina.
God. You really are...what? How to express what I'm feeling right now? I'm feeling...confused because...because...
You are----DENSE!
That's it; you're dense if you think I think anybody actions or words or anything equates them with the mercster.
and Baby Boy, no, I DO NOT fucking 'reflect' on anything you 'try' to say because you are DENSE.
And the fingers I was pointing? They were at dwellars who have done good things. Maybe if Merc bought me a Beemer......nah. Still wouldn't like the asshole.
Merry Christmas, classsic. Birds of a feather and all that.
Merc is clearly classicman's HERO.
Henceforth, he shall be known as Merc the Heroic.
He gave. He gave and gave and gave.
then, one day, he rode off into the sunset, never to be seen by the ignorant people who shunned his Brilliance and Generosity. *sobs* IF only we had KNOWN!!!
Yeah. I'm pretty bored today but still. I like to feel the blood flow just as much as the next gal.
and bruce, as much as I appreciate your trying to deflect all the world's ills onto my shoulders, I can say the same thing: some people you like, some you don't and some you just don't give a shit about and it usually has NOTHING to do with any one particular thing about them---maybe you don't like the way I part my hair. All I know for sure is your opinion of me is none of my business and 99% of the time people are thinking of themselves and not the other guy----until the other guy A) really fucks up B) really does something cool or C) pisses a lot of people off. See? I DO get how the world works! I really do!
Now how about that cuddlefest?
My disagreement with Bruce's "let's all be friends cause its not all about politics" is... it
is all about politics. I see the world in terms of political motivations and realities. Politics, public policy, and institutional oppression are present in every facet of modern life. So, when I'm talking to a mostly-apolitical person who more or less sits somewhere on my end of the spectrum, we can talk about music, movies, tv, the weather, idgaf, whatever. But with someone on the far end of the spectrum - I can't talk to a racist, sexist, homophobic scumbag about just about anything, because
their bigotry is always relevant. It's not "oh, you're okay
except when you shit on minorities, so stop doing that so much so we can hang out" - it's "you're such a shitbird, you shit on minorities, you need to stop defending your bigotry before we can talk about anything else at all."
You all need to understand that
intersectionality of oppressions is a BIG DEAL, and that
microagressions are a BIG DEAL. You don't have to know you're saying something wrong - microaggressing - to be doing it, and you won't necessarily always see it when other people talk, either.
Racists, sexists, bigots of all stripes, will microagress nearly constantly, in conversations seemingly unrelated to bigotry. Calling them out isn't stifling the vibrancy or strength of our community - it's promoting it.
Why do you think The Cellar is so overwhelmingly populated by white people?
Why is making this a safe space for GSM people less important than making it a safe space for bigotry?
Why is having bigoted conservatives more important to the cellar - their growing absence is lamented more in this thread and across the board - than having more than a handful of PoC, more than a few queers, more participation from any and every minority group or oppressed people?
There are more points of view and diversity of opinion than "white liberal" and "white conservative". Where are all the people boo-hooing over the fact that we have way fewer active PoC than active conservatives?
Ibs, if the Cellar was a safe place for bigotry it wouldn't erupt like a fucking guyser most of the times bigotry is openly expressed.
But every time bigotry is pointed out there are just as many pro-bigotry (=anti-calling-it-out-lets-just-get-along) voices as anti-bigotry voices.
And every time someone laments the passing of [strike]bigots[/strike] "other opinions" from our board, it makes the other bigots all that much more secure in staying.
No, Ibby, it's all about PEOPLE. You're the classic 'I love mankind, it's people I can't stand' Bolshevist. You relish your delicious vicarious victimization, when you've never experienced anything more painful than waiting for the seniors you sent out into the snow to buy you booze to return so you can double-check the receipts to make sure they didn't rip you off. Goddamned seniors need to be sent the way of Boxer once they outlive their usefulness in providing for your addictions, right?
Before you say one more thing, before you demand that one more human being on this planet do as you say, you need to be parachuted into some remote place where mommy and daddy don't pay for your booze and drugs and cheese, where you need to work your ass off to hopefully scrape a meagre meal at the end of the day, and then do it again for years ... where you will suffer serious physical harm for calling everyone who disagrees with you a CUNT ... where you need to shut your mouth and do more thinking, indulge in far less verbal diarrhea in the presence of people who have actually lived and suffered and grieved and persevered in the face of tons of 'unfairness'. Because life is unfair. Once you venture out from between your parents' legs you'll find that that's the case. And the best way of learning something about the world is to STFU and observe, and stop bleating your hubris into the darkness long enough to actually listen.
You need only look in the mirror to see a huge racist, sexist, heterophobic scumbag bigot. You've been well indoctrinated. You don't have a single original thought; everything you spew is worked-over rants from bigger minds and bigger souls than yours.
Let go of the parental lifeline and go live your life for ten years; then continue shutting up for ten more years; then maybe, maybe, think about saying something. Chances are it'll be something much more tempered, much more compassionate, than anything that has occurred to your fevered, drugged up little brain thus far.
I wouldn't have said any of this if I thought you were worthless. God help me, since I posted that no one is worthless you have challenged my statement every single day. Prove me wrong.
pro-bigotry (=anti-calling-it-out-lets-just-get-along)
No. They are not the same thing.
People here have less to fear from bigots than they do from being intolerably irritating.
That's way harsh, Ortho. I dont like the way this whole thing panned out and I really didn't want this to turn into an anti Merc thread, but Ibs has good reason to feel anger towards him. And to hold up Ibs' life and say she doesn;t know the meaning of suffering, which is in effect what you are saying, and doesn't know the meaning of struggle dismisses life experiences that neither of us have or understand.
I disagree, Dana. If I don't know every detail of Ibby's life, neither does Ibby know the details of the lives she judges, condemns, and dismisses from the safety of her paid-for college situation. Ibby craps on the life experiences of those who have fought, suffered, and continued to struggle for everything she holds dear. Ibby wants to tell everyone how to live, but Ibby hasn't lived yet. Some irony? Ibby is a misandrist heterophobe by her own declaration, yet bigot she is not, by her own assertion. I call bullshit. Ibby is a child who has dutifully absorbed every scrap of information, regardless of bias, that feeds her resentments and rages and desire for vicarious violence, and spews it all back at others as gospel.
I avoid Ibby whenever possible. It's usually easy, because Ibby, by her own admission, doesn't frequent threads where people actually communicate concern for each other. But - I am tired of being called names when Ibby doesn't even know me; I'm tired of Ibby ordering people around and calling people vile names when she doesn't know the first thing about those people. And she certainly only knows that shades exist, that multiple aspects are relevant, in her own case. She doesn't extend that courtesy to anyone else.
I have lived and suffered things Ibby knows absolutely nothing about, including being truly hungry on an ongoing basis. I've lived in places Ibby knows nothing about, but oh no, Ibby knows all. Ibby will instruct us all. I think Ibby would benefit most by shutting up for a long time and going out into the world and just surviving, and learning, and seeing that people have many sides, good and bad. The world just isn't all about Ibby.
I love it when people go out of their way to prove to me that they're awful people.
ANYONE who is more butthurt about people
calling out oppression than people
perpetrating oppression instantly lets me write them off. Handy, ain't it?
Ibby, that last post just lost you my respect. Childish, racist, and the message is self-centred and false.
No. They are not the same thing.
i think I explained somewhere in this thread that, you might not agree, but I absolutely believe that upholding oppression, ignoring oppression, promoting oppression, and most of all
telling oppressed people how the oppressors think they should fix their oppression are all equally oppressive.
Ibby, that last post just lost you my respect. Childish, racist, and the message is self-centred and false.
It is indeed a tragedy that Ibby has migrated towards sociopathic tendencies like pensive pam; but, that's what fear does to people especially when exacerbated by alcohol and left untreated to manifest as paranoia.
:rolleyes: I'm sober as a stone, working on an essay for my Global Social Problems class about cissexism and transmisogyny.
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Oh, hey, do my first two paragraphs sound a lot like what I'm saying in this thread?
holy shit! they do!
maybe because... anyone who's studied institutional oppression in a serious way knows that I'm not talking out of my ass, but rather, I'm advocating the academic consensus?
What? you mean there's more to oppression than your widdle hurt fee-fees? Damn right there is!
Does Ibby maybe have the slightest idea what she's talking about, having taken at least five college-level classes on various aspects of oppression/human rights, and more importantly, talked extensively with activists and
actual oppressed people about their experiences and the realities of oppression? Damn right she has!
So, whatever, call me juvenile, call me reverse-racist. I'll call you oppressor.
I'll be right, and history will prove you wrong when things get slowly better without you.
edit to add:
but, that's what fear does to people...
If I am afraid, it is because I fear my oppressors. If I am afraid, it is because clearly the Cellar is not the safe space that I once thought of it as. If I am afraid, it is people like you I fear. If I am afraid, it proves you are in the wrong. If I am afraid, it is only right that I strike back at those who would oppress me.
Maybe you should go to a trade school, learn welding or HVAC... I'm only half-kidding.
The Cellar: Where calling somebody a bigot is worse than being one!
(i kid, I kid.)
(...mostly.)
You are afraid and disproportionately so. Your sober moments are tainted by your chronic alcoholism and transcendent paranoia. You lack the raw intelligence to do anything other than strike back like a wounded animal and you wear your identity like a handicapped placard on your sleeve. You're a disgrace to any cause you advocate for as long as you're a self made nobody hiding behind a virtual wall crying wolf. Being afraid proves nothing about anyone else as your judgment is that of a coward who like other impotent cowards has become addicted to attention whoring as a substitute for meaningful relationships. Try sociopaths anonymous.
Whoa. What? I can't tell if you're projecting or just making shit up whole cloth?Like, okay, i drink beer. yeah? What's your point? I'm not, like, a drunk. I have like two or three beers like two out of three nights? On weekends I sometimes go out with friends or make myself a couple cocktails? that doesn't sound like the kind of problem youre talking about, that sounds like... college.
I'm not even gonna touch that bit about my intelligence.
I wear my identity like someone like Sarge wears the Flag. Proudly, without shame or apology. I don't hold anything about it back, including my absolute belief in social justice and shining a light on oppression, calling it out, whenever i see it. If that's like a handicapped placard to you, we must have a different idea of what the placard represents.
I don't hide behind a virtual wall. I call people out in public. I risk my actual physical safety doing this kind of thing in real life. People get just as frothingly upset as you are, now, at having their shit pointed out, in real life, too. I stand my ground as long as it's safe to.
I'm a nobody, sure. cause i'm a 21 year old student. I don't think I know more than a handful of 21-year-old college students who arent nobodies?
I don't understand what there is about telling oppressors that they're being oppressive that is cowardly. People get killed every day in this country for standing up to oppressors, by pissing off patriarchal men, by being too black too late at night, for refusing to conform to gender roles, for loving the wrong person, or the wrong gender, in the wrong neighboorhood. There are people here on this site who know my full name, and the city I live in, and in fact could find where in the city i live pretty easily. If this were a site like 4chan or reddit i would be getting death threats right about now. I personally know quite a few people who HAVE gotten death threats. In the cellar, I only get ad hominem vitriol from many, ambivalence from most. On a site where people actually care about not being oppressive, i would get apologies and "gosh, I didn't realize that saying things like that is offensive/wrong/harmful! What could I say instead that would be less oppressive?".
I'm sorry i hurt your feefees but you're being ridiculous. if you cared half as much about shutting down oppressors as you do about defending them you'd be a powerful ally for justice.
Whoa. What? I can't tell if you're projecting or just making shit up whole cloth? ... me me me me me ... I'm sorry i hurt your feefees but you're being ridiculous. if you cared half as much about shutting down oppressors as you do about defending them you'd be a powerful ally for justice.
I just wanted to let you know how your virtual communication style makes others feel. Did you enjoy it?
I'm sorry if I hurt your feefees but you've been obnoxious. If you cared half as much about gaining allies as you do about shutting down oppressors you'd be a powerful advocate for justice.
Aww, does the ally want a cookie?
Yeah, no, we make
fun of allies. Allies are part of the problem, people patting themselves on the back while refusing to confront their own actions. Just being an ally doesn't excuse you from being oppressive.
EDIT oh sorry almost forgot my favorite cookie
see also
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mc9qpmCFPT1qhisau.png,
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mc3soxSdPW1r7k3tso1_500.png,
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mbs3q8ag6R1r7k3tso1_400.png,
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9ivg1B2xJ1qaxxvao2_r1_400.jpg ("things allies say"),
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9ivg1B2xJ1qaxxvao10_r1_400.jpg (more "things allies say"),
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9iwdqF82h1qar70f.jpg (that thing you're all saying)...
... people patting themselves on the back while refusing to confront their own actions. ...
That's precisely what you're doing and it's making you persona non grata.
... Just being an ally doesn't excuse you from being oppressive. ...
Just being oppressed doesn't excuse you from making allies for the cause.
You've obviously placed yourself above your cause. The last refuge of a scoundrel is her cause.
Notice I don't need pictures to communicate as do the disgruntled peasants.
Just being oppressed doesn't excuse you from making allies for the cause.
...
yes it does! Allies HURT causes, not HELP them.
...yes it does! Allies HURT causes, not HELP them.
I see that you're emotionally unstable and no longer an appropriate candidate for "community" intervention. As with others like you who have passed through these forums, I will abstain from further intervention and recommend the same to others (until Ibby warrants a time out vis-à-vis pensive pam).
I see that you're emotionally unstable and no longer an appropriate candidate for "community" intervention. As with others like you who have passed through these forums, I will abstain from further intervention and recommend the same to others (until Ibby warrants a time out vis-à-vis pensive pam).
Other forms of microaggression
Microaggressions can take a number of different forms,[9] for example, questioning the existence of racial-cultural issues, making stereotypic assumptions, and cultural insensitivity.[9][10] Some other types of microaggressions that have been identified[9] include Colorblindness (e.g., "I don't think of you as Black. You are just a normal person"), Denial of personal bias (e.g., "I'm not homophobic; I even have gay friends."), and Minimization of racial-cultural issues (e.g., "Just because you feel alone in this group doesn't mean that there's a racial issue involved."). "Colorblindness" in particular has been associated with higher levels of racism[11] and lower levels of empathy.[12]
Racial Microaggressions
The concept of racial microaggressions is one of the relative new contributions of Social Psychology to the understanding of factors that influence intergroup relations. Commonplace, public experiences or situations such as being stopped for a check-up at an airport, being ignored by a waiter/waitress at a restaurant or being assigned to a particular task by an employer, might seem irrelevant or innocuous situations under most circumstances. However, when such situations are interpreted as being linked to racial differences, they become distinct, and take on a different connotation. As a result, people subjected to them (racial minorities) may experience emotional pain or other negative feelings.[26]
Supporters of the theory argue that racial microaggressions are reported to be common,[13][14][15][16] including among people who think of themselves as being fair and nonracist,[17][18][19] and who have received multicultural training.[20]
According to P.C. Davis (1989), microaggression is enabled because “cognitive habit, history, and culture [has left it] unable to hear the range of relevant voices and grapple with what reasonably might be said in the voice of discrimination’s victims”.[21]
Allyship in a nutshell.
... and it's making you persona non grata.
That's not happening.
Nope, just a misapplication of psychology by a layman in a vain attempt to rationalize untoward behavior. A loser's hand. You've got to know when to fold 'em.
That's not happening.
It's already happened with those who have dropped out and no longer support the cellar, fool.
It's already happened with those who have dropped out and no longer support the cellar, fool.
:rolleyes:
Smile when you say that boy. Oh, I see that you did. Keep up the good work.
basically, sexobon, your argument is that... i'm being oppressive and bad myself by calling out oppressive people, and since i'm doing so belligerently, i'm hurting my cause by alienating potential allies, right?
That's what they've said about every radical social movement ever. and yet social movements don't work but on the backs of their radical wing! No deification of MLK without Malcolm X. No deification of Gandhi without riots and radicals. No whitewashed modern gay rights movement without Stonewall.
I'm stonewall, bitches, every minute of every day. I'm not gay as in happy, i'm queer as in fuck you. I'm actually out there trying to make the lives of ALL my queer brothers and sisters better, not just the white cis male ones, and that means fighting all the intersectionalities of oppression that trans men, trans women, queer MoC, queer WoC, trans MoC, trans WoC, rich queers, poor queers, and every other combination of intersectionality there is.
If you don't like it, you could try not being oppressive, instead of bitching at me for having a problem with it.
I'll take that for what it's worth coming from a done nothing heterophobe.
To use an unrelated statement by UT: I like you; but, not that much.
I only say that because I've known people are were so much better at your game than you are.
Do you honestly, really think there's a such thing as heterophobia? Really?
When's the last time a straight person suffered for their straightness?
I'll wait.
In your paranoid hands, yes indeed, a lot of decent people are suffering. Have you no compassion for them, no tolerance for their transition? Is instant gratification everything to you? You don't relinquish anything by being patient with people in the Cellar. You sacrifice everything by pushing them before they're ready. That's the difference between knowledge and experience. It's something you've failed to recognize. So be it. You failed. Let it be a lesson to others like you. You're beyond redemption.
Whose transition to what? Who am I causing to suffer? What am I paranoid about? What have I failed to recognize? I literally have no clue what you mean?
I'm sorry that you're an uninformed dolt; but, I'm not sorry about your finger.
Smile when you say that boy. Oh, I see that you did. Keep up the good work.
You don't like the dismissive smilie response? It's classic Merc!
I'm sorry that you're an uninformed dolt; but, I'm not sorry about your finger.
Could you be any less clear? I don't think it's my reading comprehension that's at fault here, unless you're honestly calling the entire cellar too backwards to embrace trying to meet minimum standards of human decency, which is what it sounds like you're saying. and then saying i'm making life worse for somebody-or-other by calling oppression oppression? because that's too patently ridiculous even for you.
You don't like the dismissive smilie response? It's classic Merc!
There, there. I don't want you to feel left out. I'm not sorry about your finger either. :)
Could you be any less clear? I don't think it's my reading comprehension that's at fault here, unless you're honestly calling the entire cellar too backwards to embrace trying to meet minimum standards of human decency, which is what it sounds like you're saying. and then saying i'm making life worse for somebody-or-other by calling oppression oppression? because that's too patently ridiculous even for you.
You're boring me. Go away. I'm being entertained by Happy Monkey now. What can I say, I'm fickle.
So you admit you're just being a troll. And here I was hoping for actual intellectual stimulation. Such is life on the internet.
So you admit you're just being a troll. And here I was hoping for actual intellectual stimulation. Such is life on the internet.
Admit nothing. Deny, deny, deny and counter accuse. You've got a lot to learn you dumb cuntless. ;)
Sexo, didn't you say you weren't going to respond to Ibs any more?
I thought that was a wise response.
Ibby I think you need to learn that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
I know you're doing it for a cause, but there's not much difference between visionaries and tyrants except history.
I don't think the Cellar is the right place for the battle you are fighting right now.
Does Ibby maybe have the slightest idea what she's talking about, having taken at least five college-level classes on various aspects of oppression/human rights
I took 6 years of French. Then I went to Montreal and found out it was worthless!
If I am afraid, it is because
… I took classes that told me I should be, and taught me to recite it like poetry.
People with actual fear don't talk like that.
Sexo, didn't you say you weren't going to respond to Ibs any more?
I thought that was a wise response.
Ibby I think you need to learn that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
I know you're doing it for a cause, but there's not much difference between visionaries and tyrants except history.
I don't think the Cellar is the right place for the battle you are fighting right now.
It just may be the perfect place. She's practicing...honing her skills. She i
s writing that paper, so she is really immersed in it right now. Some people are getting their nose really bent out of shape but that's ok, this is the cellar afterall, and she will take her lumps for it.
Her passion may be getting in the way of her common sense, but it is understandable to me.
I took 6 years of French. Then I went to Montreal and found out it was worthless!
So! You went to the real Canada and not the bullshit Canada! Good for you!
(yeah, the french they speak there is waaaaaay different. My mom spoke it for years with her sibs)
Pico, nice and that, but ... "she". :)
No, Ibby, it's all about PEOPLE. You're the classic 'I love mankind, it's people I can't stand' Bolshevist. You relish your delicious vicarious victimization, when you've never experienced anything more painful than waiting for the seniors you sent out into the snow to buy you booze to return so you can double-check the receipts to make sure they didn't rip you off. Goddamned seniors need to be sent the way of Boxer once they outlive their usefulness in providing for your addictions, right?
Before you say one more thing, before you demand that one more human being on this planet do as you say, you need to be parachuted into some remote place where mommy and daddy don't pay for your booze and drugs and cheese, where you need to work your ass off to hopefully scrape a meagre meal at the end of the day, and then do it again for years ... where you will suffer serious physical harm for calling everyone who disagrees with you a CUNT ... where you need to shut your mouth and do more thinking, indulge in far less verbal diarrhea in the presence of people who have actually lived and suffered and grieved and persevered in the face of tons of 'unfairness'. Because life is unfair. Once you venture out from between your parents' legs you'll find that that's the case. And the best way of learning something about the world is to STFU and observe, and stop bleating your hubris into the darkness long enough to actually listen.
You need only look in the mirror to see a huge racist, sexist, heterophobic scumbag bigot. You've been well indoctrinated. You don't have a single original thought; everything you spew is worked-over rants from bigger minds and bigger souls than yours.
Let go of the parental lifeline and go live your life for ten years; then continue shutting up for ten more years; then maybe, maybe, think about saying something. Chances are it'll be something much more tempered, much more compassionate, than anything that has occurred to your fevered, drugged up little brain thus far.
I wouldn't have said any of this if I thought you were worthless. God help me, since I posted that no one is worthless you have challenged my statement every single day. Prove me wrong.
Have I told you lately how much I love you?
Ibby, that last post just lost you my respect. Childish, racist, and the message is self-centred and false.
For a smart guy you sometimes cotton-on to things slowly.
Admit nothing. Deny, deny, deny and counter accuse. You've got a lot to learn you dumb cuntless. ;)
The more you post Sexobon, the more your subtle humor reveals itself. :thumb:
I took 6 years of French. Then I went to Montreal and found out it was worthless!
Yes, "je me souviens" actually means "I buy souvenirs"
Sexo, didn't you say you weren't going to respond to Ibs any more?
I thought that was a wise response. ...
Allow me to clarify. I said that I wasn't going to intervene, not that I wasn't going to reply. It's whacko extremists like Ibby who refuse to have civil communication about anything with others whom they've judged to be impediments to their agendas. Nonintervention means I recognize that Ibby is at a place in her life where she treats people as resources to be strip mined to further her agendas and that for her the end justifies the means. I'm simply not going to be an enabler by communicating with Ibby at a level where she can glean insights into techniques that she obviously hasn't learned yet. It doesn't mean that I can't use her for my own entertainment, to which end my means are automatically justified, thus applying her standards for relationships back on her. I'm just a mirror: If Ibby doesn't like what she sees, she's always had the option of changing her appearance.
Yes, "je me souviens" actually means "I buy souvenirs"
I was told it means "I don't tip".
I was told it means "I don't tip".
True
I was told it means "I don't tip".
Another micro aggression by the man, shame be upon you!
Add that to [COLOR="Red"]Lookout's attack on me[/COLOR], and I realize that the Cellar is not a healthy place for me to be spending my time - not right now, anyhow. I'm outta here. :bolt:
Really? My attack on you? I don't think I attacked any individual in any way. I called out what I see (and you may disagree) as negative condition in the cellar. I pointed out that all of us as individuals, including me, have behaved like assholes. If you perceive that as a personal attack, I'm sorry for your hurt, but not for what I said. In fact, if you really saw it as an attack I find that symptomatic of a trend in the cellar and in society as a whole.
Everyone is looking for a reason to be a victim. People go out of their way to find a way to be offended. Ibby is the poster child for this, nearly to the level of being a caricature.
Seriously, what the fuck. Merc is a truly intolerant asshat and said a lot of shit that was uncalled for. The fact his politics align more closely with mine than most other dwellars is irrelevant. Things he posted made me cringe and ignore the majority of what he said in the same way I do with TW. They are not dissimilar individuals. Is the cellar better or worse with him gone? I don't know, but he's probably better off being gone because this place didnt' bring out the best in him. I'm certain he would speak the same way to someone he had to look in the eye.
At the same time, we still have Ibram/Ibby, whatever, crying over shit that was written on a computer screen and ranting incoherently about his horrible life as a victim and if we're not with him we're against him. His blatant intolerance is somehow glorious and just because he is on the side of the angels. Fuck that. Ibby is an immature child surrounded by immature PC children afraid to tell him to shut the fuck up. He obviously takes college courses designed to strengthen his status as a victim so he has more soundbyte bullshit to throw at everything and everyone that gets within poo throwing distance.
So one of them is here and one of them is gone, is the cellar better? Nah, not really, imo. I would wager that right now there have been a few vultures circling this thread waiting to be offended so they can jump in with their own explanations of why they are hurt. Fair enough.
If that is how a person wants to spend their life then that's ok by me. The good news is there is always something to hurt your feelings floating around if you look hard enough. I just don't see the value in spending a life searching for righteous indignation in swirling sea of shifting opinions. Instead of being offended look to see if their is anything
ANYTHING of value in a post or a person before grabbing your pitch fork and kindling.
Life can be fun, if you let it.
Well, I, for one, am pleased that this thread got Lookout to poke back in. That's an improvement right there.
How are you doing, Lookout?
Tril, I just formed a friendship with Merc for god knows what reason. It's always hard to pinpoint when a friendship begins or why. I do know that I had huge problems with him when he first came here and in particular, when he had his first real go at Ibram (he who was) all the way back years ago. I think it was in the relationships thread or something and there was something to do with BigV and Classic and their mutual relationship issues and there was a lot of shit slinging going on. Just saying this in case you want to go have a look at some of the horrible things that have been said between Merc and I in the past. I suspect you're probably not really that interested, but it's all there somewhere.
Like Bruce, I have friends on both sides of the political fence. I don't judge them for their beliefs and I often cringe when they say things I totally disagree with. Sometimes I respond, but more often than not I keep my thoughts to myself these days IRL, just as I do here as far as politics goes.
As far as not liking some of the things Merc has said, there have been quite a few times when I've said something to him privately about my views on his responses and how I think he's being cruel or harsh, but it's really not up to me or anyone else to tell any of my friends how they should behave. People travel their own path, and they'll usually do exactly as they please regardless of what others say.
I think what people like me have tried to say is that they see more than one side to Merc, and he's proven himself to have a very generous, kind and thoughtful side that he keeps hidden a lot under a pretty rough veneer. I've often wondered why he does that, but again, I guess he has his reasons and maybe I'll never know what they are, but I'm grateful for the care and concern he's shown me over the years and I wouldn't turn away from him just because he happens to be a dickhead from time to time. If I did that, I'd have no friends anywhere, and I like having friends, so I'll take the good with the bad. I know my friends aren't perfect, but they're trying and that means more to me than almost anything.
I hope this is in some way understandable. It seems a bit garbled to me, but I hope it makes sense somehow. lol
Are you kinda, sorta, maybe trying to tell us that your newborn could be Merc's?
haha...nope. His dick is not quite that long.
XoB should ask for DNA testing to make sure that you're only cheating with him and not cheating on him.
lol i think he knows who the father is.
I left here for while because the bullshit got so fucking deep it was sickening and it made me more of a bitter, shitty person.
@Classic: It's OK for you to come back to TheCellar now.
It has returned to the old place you seem to miss.
here
here
here
here
here
Now maybe Merc will feel comfortable and grace us with his presence too.
Really? My attack on you? I don't think I attacked any individual in any way.
I believed she had already planned a camping trip.
XoB should ask for DNA testing to make sure that you're only cheating with him and not cheating on him.
Hah, mine is shorter than Mercs. :haha:
... Now maybe Merc will feel comfortable and grace us with his presence too.
Not after Aliantha dumped him for xoB.
@Classic: It's OK for you to come back to TheCellar now.
It has returned to the old place you seem to miss.
here
here
here
here
here
Now maybe Merc will feel comfortable and grace us with his presence too.
I luvz lamp!
I really feel there needs to be a "Jane, you ignorant slut" and a "Dan, you pompous ass."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Curtin
;)
I find it difficult to pal around with someone who wants, philosophically, to buttfuck me in the mouth.
I have more respect for someone who is obnoxious in fighting bigotry than I do for someone who is obnoxious in supporting bigotry.
...soul searching----a lost art IMHO.
Well said, Trilby. Your whole post is applicable to this thread, too.
Ummmm. Well, maybe we can skip over the "cuddlefest" for now. ;)
.
.
Here's something I just thought of re: Merc and why I think he's a good person.
We've all used the phrase, actions speak louder than words; this is particularly illuminating with regard to my feelings about Merc. He says some really dumb stuff at times, and it honestly makes me upset, but his actions in many other areas far outweigh the petty crap he can sometimes say on this board. So, rather than using the above mentioned phrase to denigrate someone's attempt to fix things with words, I use it to applaud someone for demonstrating through their actions what the real person is all about.
Any light bulbs finally turning on yet?
mostly sexobon, orthodoc, griff, some of my other fellow parents and others... whatever. just thinking out loud here.
I have kids a little older (and one younger) than Ibby. I love them dearly. I know that's a cliche, it's still true though. That love has been around since before they were born, and I don't think there's anything that will ever change it. How that love is expressed, that changes with the circumstances. How I feel at a given moment toward them, that changes too. What I expect from them, also changeable. What I do for them, what I say to them, those kinds of things vary. I want the best for them always. I love them always, regardless.
All I have as their parent is my credibility. I've worked all their lives to build my credibility, to earn and justify their trust in me. Mostly I've succeeded, but it hasn't been a uniformly upward trend. And it's not the same in every area. Some things they're sure I know a lot about, some things they're sure I know nothing about. When they were younger, I did a lot more telling about stuff. I love the socratic method of teaching and I use it a lot; it's my first tool out of my bag usually.
But there are lots of things I've found that don't work when I'm trying, in good faith, in love, to teach my kids. Corporal punishment, that was probably the first tool they grew out of. They're too big to spank into compliance or comprehension, been too big for a long time. Because I'm the Daddy, tha's why force of personality, that's... those days are gone too. The older they get, the more sophisticated their capacity to reason, the more I've needed to persuade in order to teach. Persuasion's the key.
When I look at what it takes to persuade, that's when I notice that all I have is my credibility. If they believe me, if they trust me, they'll accept what I say. Ironically, even if I'm wrong, they'll still believe me, but maybe only temporarily until they learn better. And that's all exactly what I have striven for as their parent *all along*. Think for yourself. Be able to assess the quality of what you're hearing for yourself. Now, if I have that credibility, I'll start off with 'points', but I'd better be proven right in their experience or I'll suffer a loss of credibility and I'll have a harder time telling/teaching/guiding/helping them in the future. That's sad for me as their Dad because I always want to help.
These older critical thinkers, with their ability to reason and argue, without that credibility, they can't be *told* anything. In fact, until they start the conversation by asking for my input, the conversation is just like that teacher in the Charlie Brown cartoons "Waaaah Waaah Waaah Waaah". I'm reminded of the proverb "Teaching a student before they are ready is like hammering on cold iron."
I care for Ibby. Not like my child, I don't intend to patronize, but like a friend. She's entitled to her opinion about mercy, just as I am entitled to mine. I'm not interested in persuading her otherwise--we just disagree, we just have a different opinion about him. But when it comes to objective assessments, those are less open to interpretation.... anyhow, I'm rambling a bit. It is my observation that regarding most of the conversation here that is not directly about mercy, Ibby has vested more credibility in the sources he's privy to than he has vested in most of the posters here. We're hammering on cold iron.
<snip>...Ibby has vested more credibility in the sources
he's privy to than he has vested in most of the posters here.
We're hammering on cold iron.
V, I've read through your post a few times, each time hoping to eventually reach your conclusion.
Either I still don't get your meaning, or I come to a totally different conclusion.
For my part, I feel Ibby has been extremely self-giving and open
to everyone here
about the road she travels, the standards she holds, and she still remains open for discussion.
She has posted more than just her opinions, she has tried to educate.
So, I feel more connected, and think I know more about Ibby as a person, than I do about many other Dwellars.
From the posted attacks most recently, and in the past, I feel Ibby has done remarkable well.
Her posts have remained civil, and her use of "oppressor" has proved well founded.
She has stayed with us in the face of some highly insulting diatribes.
I doubt I could/would want to stay long in the face of such abusive behavior.
It makes me wonder if a few Dwellars have a perception that Ibby somehow is a hidden threat,
or is it a holdover from some earlier Drill Instructor type mocking their own sexuality,
or is it only a belief in some sort of superiority that allows them to impose their will on another.
I'm left with a question that I haven't yet answered.
What gives justification to "hammer" in the first place ?
*applauding BigV* that's what I've been thinking all along, well not the children part, the hitting on iron part. I was thinking of a different expression, but same meaning all the same.
Lamp, my understanding of what V is saying is that young people are at times able to be *influenced but at others not, and that at this point, Ibs is not particularly interested in hearing from people here, that the way he goes about getting his point across at times is not helpful to his cause. Sorry, I mean her. I guess I could have gone back and edited the he's to she's, but left it as it was simply because for me, it's still a conscious effort to refer to Ibs in the feminine. ftr, it makes no difference to me other than the inclusion of an extra consonant. How people live their lives is really up to them unless it infringes on my rights or freedom. Clearly Ibs choices don't, so she can do as she pleases. Maybe that's what's really getting on some people's nerves. The lady doth protest too much?! In any case, I too have not felt the need to respond in any way for months about Ibs sexuality simply because I don't see any point. Ibs is doing what she needs/wants to do and nothing I do or say is likely to change that at this stage because she is clearly not too interested in hearing my opinion on it or how she's going about things. Why waste my breath? It wont change what she does in any way. Maybe down the track things will change. Till then, I think most of us here feel that it's best to leave Ibs to her own devices and live or die by her own hand.
*I'm pretty sure he means as mature adults, giving children the benefit of your experiences in the world thanks to having been around longer. Trying to help them make less mistakes etc, or to find an easier path.
BigV's words ring true to me. Maybe its middle child syndrome, but I see Ibby organizing a life filled with intentional conflict and otherizing based on the words of professional thinkers who are quite out of touch with the thoughts and language of those they seek to change.. gotta run
professional thinkers who are quite out of touch with the thoughts and language of those they seek to change
They gettin' PAID and TENURED. If you got a scam, work it, that's what I always say.
They gettin' PAID and TENURED. If you got a scam, work it, that's what I always say.
yeah. and they don't know how good they got it.
Nearly every tenured prof I knew hated students and wished us all dead. And those were the good ones. the other ones just didn't give a good goddamn.
I had one prof FREAK OUT and nearly get violent when a kid fell asleep in class. No wait...that was a priest and it was high school. Never mind.
The tenured professors in my uni are fucking awesome.
...He says some really dumb stuff at times, and it honestly makes me upset, but his actions in many other areas far outweigh the petty crap he can sometimes say on this board.
I didn't think his suggesting I kill myself was petty.
Any light bulbs finally turning on yet?
At the risk of making you angry ---- NO.
What sort of actions are we talking about here?
Giving preferred customers perks and goodies and money and gifts? Those kinds of actions? Or did Merc work for Doctors Without Borders or the Red Cross and was too shy to tell us all about it?
Y'know I really don't like the anti-intellectual flavour of some of the comments in here.
'professional thinkers who are quite out of touch with the thoughts and language of those they seek to change'.
'professional thinkers' who have studied and worked and sacrificed to get where they are and to build the understanding they have. What we know of their thoughts are filtered through to us from the understanding of their student. None of us know whether Ibs' professors are/were 'out of touch' with ordinary people and language. Don't confuse someone's academic understanding of a particular subject with their wider understanding of humanity.
They're not locked in at night. They are people in the world just like anybody else.
Well, I wasn't specifically referring to that comment. As I said, some of his comments made me angry or upset at times also.
It's ok, I'm not angry. Tbh, I'm not sure why I keep posting cause he's never coming back here, so there's really no point. I think I'm just trying to point out that quite a number of us have been touched by Mercs concern and or generosity. I'm not sure if he'd need to buy something for everyone or maybe donate everything he owns to charity in order to be considered a good person, and even if he did, I suspect that some people would still not care for him, and that's ok too. *shrugs* For whatever reason, I came to know some good qualities in the man and I think it's a shame he doesn't let more people see that side of him. God knows why, but that's just the way it is I guess. If someone does something nice for you, it's kind of arseholish to just ignore that in favour of being pissed off about something that was said - probably ill considered and impetuous - some time in the past.
I'm just telling it from my very own perspective because people seem to wonder why I feel the way I do, so I'm not really trying to convince anyone. Just telling the story from my end. :)
I'm interested to learn why those who now attack Ibby for her intolerance did not, to my recollection, ever attack merc for his intolerance.
merc pretty much got a pass.
UT called him out and so did Jim, and Infini, iirc.
but it was for big, huge things. everything else he said just...washed over everyone like a tide of muck.
Ali----merc certainly didn't need to give all his money to charity, etc., to be considered a 'good person' by me - that's ridiculous. but I DO see that the people he gave gifts to are the ones defending him the loudest. and that's bullshit. He didn't let many people 'see that good side of him' because he hated most of us. He hated me; he hated anyone with a liberal slant (which is why I found it confusing that you two were so tight) but, hey, IF he really isn't coming back, I'm glad. I found him to be a bully, a know-it-all and a provoker. He LOVED to sit back and watch a fight, usually one he started.
I see him as a negative force in the Universe and yes, I want a cuddlefest. I rather like warm and fuzzy people; not shrill haters. But hey, there's no positive without negative, is there? I found him angry, confused, bitter, mean for mean-ness' sake and very, very afraid someone would take away his toys.
That's how I saw it from MY end.
He LOVED to sit back and watch a fight, usually one he started.
Yeah, remember the interminable :corn:
yes.
he fed on darkness. I used to do that, too.
it's much nicer out here in the light.
not so mushroom-y, dank and depressing.
lol you girls are so dramatic. :)
G'night!
Yeah, remember the interminable :corn:
lol you girls are so dramatic. :)
G'night!
:eyebrow:
I'm up for an Oscar for that role. :rolleyes:
I'm interested to learn why those who now attack Ibby for her intolerance did not, to my recollection, ever attack merc for his intolerance.
That's not true, he was confronted for some things he said, others were just ignored rather than acknowledging. Attacking him for his general attitude would be like attacking Zip for his spelling, or tw for his soliloquies, it's part of his identity here.
I think I have a handle on why, where he came from, how hard he worked, and the smart choices he made, to get his comfortable lifestyle. And from eating all those dead rugby players.
Ibby is another matter, he seems to be developing a habit of telling me what I can and cannot say, or even think. Hommie don't play dat.:headshake
That's not true, he was confronted for some things he said,
He was not attacked by the same people who now attack Ibby for the same thing, except maybe you.
No, spirited arguments but I don't attack anyone, except rkzenrage.
I didn't see Merc get a free pass. I saw him get embroiled in arguments that ended up with lots of people telling him off. I know I had a go at him many times over stuff he said. In particular stuff he said to Ibs.
<snip>
Ibby is another matter, he seems to be developing a habit of telling me
what I can and cannot say, or even think. Hommie don't play dat.:headshake
Sure, xoB, what we say/post is up to each of us.
But that is what creates our own personal reputations.
It also has to do with respect for another Dwellar.
If Ibram asks to be called Ibby, is that so different than Brianna
asking to be called Trilby, and for us to use pronouns in sync with their names ?
If it is so difficult make such changes in our vocabularies ?
If that is so hard, should we assume there's more going on than just resistance to PC ?
With regards to what I "think", it seems to me that is exactly what Ibby is trying to change.
First, I don't assume that it's Ibby that needs to be changed by me.
Only with changes in my thinking will the changes follow in my own social behaviors, regardless of the current version of PC.
lol you girls are so dramatic. :)
G'night!
It's not
drama, it's
imagination.
BigV's words ring true to me. Maybe its middle child syndrome, but I see Ibby organizing a life filled with intentional conflict and otherizing based on the words of professional thinkers who are quite out of touch with the thoughts and language of those they seek to change.. gotta run
I guess you are glad lil Pete didn't go to Bennington then?
If she chose Bennington, I'd have supported her in that. Every kid needs to find a place that serves her needs not her parent's. It didn't meet her academic needs. She's pretty conservative in her lifestyle choices, despite being very liberal politically. Her perception that the drug culture was pretty serious also turned her off.
V, I've read through your post a few times, each time hoping to eventually reach your conclusion.
Either I still don't get your meaning, or I come to a totally different conclusion.
For my part, I feel Ibby has been extremely self-giving and open to everyone here
about the road she travels, the standards she holds, and she still remains open for discussion.
She has posted more than just her opinions, she has tried to educate.
So, I feel more connected, and think I know more about Ibby as a person, than I do about many other Dwellars.
From the posted attacks most recently, and in the past, I feel Ibby has done remarkable well.
Her posts have remained civil, and her use of "oppressor" has proved well founded.
She has stayed with us in the face of some highly insulting diatribes.
I doubt I could/would want to stay long in the face of such abusive behavior.
It makes me wonder if a few Dwellars have a perception that Ibby somehow is a hidden threat,
or is it a holdover from some earlier Drill Instructor type mocking their own sexuality,
or is it only a belief in some sort of superiority that allows them to impose their will on another.
I'm left with a question that I haven't yet answered.
What gives justification to "hammer" in the first place ?
Lamplighter--
first of all, the "hammering" is just a figure of speech, taken from the proverb I quoted, and taken from the tone of many of the posts addressed directly to Ibby. there's been plenty of hammering.
As for the justification to "hammer", I offer these reasons.
First of all, I'm entitled to express myself just as you are and she is. And we do all express ourselves around here. When that expression takes the tone of repeated, argumentative telling how to think and act, "hammering" is an apt description.
Next, speaking for myself, I felt some of the things Ibby said were wrong, and I wished to correct those things. For example, being intolerant of intolerance, but refusing to accept the idea such a position perpetuates the very thing she says she's trying to stamp out. Also, characterizing others, mercy in this case, as a one dimensional caricature, "an asshole" based on a subset of his words, while at the same time having a well established reputation for rejecting others' judgements of herself, claiming such labels were unfair characterizations. Another thing, rejecting the idea that allies are helpful, wtf? Making bigoted statements about the bigotry of others. Stuff like this.
So. It's hammering to the extent that our respective positions are in strong opposition to each other and it's justified because I care enough about Ibby and the subjects at hand to speak up.
As for the actual point I was trying to make, I don't think Ibby's interested in learning from me and others on these kinds of points. She's got a ton of input, and she's assessing it, and she's finding my input wanting by comparison. I can not shape her iron until she's ready.
Sure, xoB, what we say/post is up to each of us.
But that is what creates our own personal reputations.
It also has to do with respect for another Dwellar.
If Ibram asks to be called Ibby, is that so different than Brianna
asking to be called Trilby, and for us to use pronouns in sync with their names ?
If it is so difficult make such changes in our vocabularies ?
If that is so hard, should we assume there's more going on than just resistance to PC ?
What the fuck are you talking about, I don't give a shit if somebody changes their user name.
With regards to what I "think", it seems to me that is exactly what Ibby is trying to change.
Now that's the rub. When he first started this feminization of Ibram, in here, he was throwing out all these categories and rules that everyone must follow or they being aggressive/oppressive of these groups.
First of all I'm not convinced there are that many subdivisions. Shit, everyone is a little different from everyone else, but everybody doesn't get to whine if people don't follow their personal set of rules. At least not and be taken seriously.
Second, I only know a couple people that fall anywhere in the spectrum, that I know of. The ones I do know is because they told me, and none asked for special treatment. We get along just fine without following any of Ibby's guide to acceptable behavior.
First, I don't assume that it's Ibby that needs to be changed by me.
Only with changes in my thinking will the changes follow in my own social behaviors, regardless of the current version of PC.
I don't want to change him, and he doesn't get demand changes of me.
TheMercenary might come back if a certain someone nominates him to be a moderator. ;)
Well, I'm not the best at expressing my thoughts. I still stand behind Merc because he was good to me and I don't forget a kindness. Also, I have great respect for his military career and now his civilian.
Ibby, I came down hard on you and I want you to know I apologize. Your comment about me wrapping myself in the flag made me realize that we are both very passionate about our core beliefs. I need to be more tolerant of others who aren't as "patriotic". Thanks for opening my eyes
Ibby, I came down hard on you and I want you to know I apologize. Your comment about me wrapping myself in the flag made me realize that we are both very passionate about our core beliefs. I need to be more tolerant of others who aren't as "patriotic". Thanks for opening my eyes
Thanks, Sarge. You're actually one of the dwellars I'm most okay about disagreeing with, because I don't doubt that you and I have similar theoretical (if not political) aims for our nation as a place of justice and equity, even if we disagree on most of how to do that and what it should look like. With an Air Force father it's not hard for me to be sympathetic to most of our current and former servicemembers. Even though we diverge deeply in how we approach that ideal, I think it's one that has common ground to find, even though I am deeply critical of most visions of patriotism.
Clearly the cellar is not a safe and receptive place for me to voice my progressive and anti-oppressive views, and so i might not be around much for a while, but if you or any other dwellars want to discuss, earnestly and un-antagonistically or defensively, how I think generations of oppressive narratives and positions have hurt our nation, how I can't feel comfortable identifying as someone who is "patriotic" in supporting the country I want to serve as a career (as someone who plans to serve in the state dep't as an FSO), why I believe the "I'll say what I want, I know better than oppressed people how to fix oppression, your political-correctness-run-amok-worldview-makes-things-worse" culture only perpetuates problems...
If you or any other dwellar really wants to know why I find that argument hurtful to all marginalized Americans, and wants to understand why I am very passionate about my slightly-revolutionary, controversial "core beliefs" about privilege and oppression, please PM me for a contact link.
At any rate, sarge, I deeply respect that you can come forward and say your eyes've been opened and shit. I hope we can engage more in the future on this respectful level about how identities and oppressions matter.
I found out if we just listen, we can all learn something from each other. I know it's a corny old saying
TheMercenary might come back if a certain someone nominates him to be a moderator. ;)
That made me laugh out loud. for real. I'm a shit stirrer though.
Ibs, I think it's just that in general, your sexuality is the only thing we seem to hear about from you lately, and most of us understand that you're in total immersion, and are quite happy for you to do your thing, but speaking for myself, I feel like you're preaching to me, and to be honest, I have and have had my own issues with oppression and you may find that other, older members here have too. Maybe that's the point. Those older posters among us have tried to give you the benefit of their experiences but you can't understand yet that there is benefit to their words. Maybe because the wounds caused by your current journey are still too raw, you fail to have any empathy for the scars of others?...
Just a thought. I could be wrong, but I have tried hard to word this in such a way as to not cause offence. I hope none has been taken.
Thanks Dana, I thought about it for half a day before finally posting.
That just goes to show how much I've changed. ;)
quote Ali: Maybe because the wounds caused by your current journey are still too raw, you fail to have any empathy for the scars of others?...
very nicely put, Ali. And true, so true.
Thanks Dana, I thought about it for half a day before finally posting.
That just goes to show how much I've changed. ;)
What? Foul, red card! Don't you know thinking before posting is, is, well, just not done. ;)
What? Foul, red card! Don't you know thinking before posting is, is, well, just not done. ;)
I sure wish I did more thinking before posting. I can really screw up
You put things very well, Ali. I saw your post last night and would've liked to add a little, but I'm not feeling up to it right now. I think I'll leave your thoughtful comments unsullied by any additions of mine ... thank you for taking the time and energy.
What? Foul, red card! Don't you know thinking before posting is, is, well, just not done. ;)
haha...well it's just this new thing I'm trying. Seems to be working so far. I haven't had a shit fight for ages. lol
I sure wish I did more thinking before posting. I can really screw up
Believe me Sarge, we all have, especially me. I have been known to rush in where angels fear to tread on many occasions. Not a great idea usually. That's why the angels stay away. ;)
I sure wish I did more thinking before posting. I can really screw up
Not necessarily, if you shoot from the hip and write what you're thinking/feeling at the time, it's more likely to be your true self.
If you read it the next day and think that's not what I was trying to say, OK.
But if you read it the next day and say, damn, where did that come from, then you might want to reexamine how you really feel about stuff.
Some people are surprised to find out they aren't who they think they are. :D
Yeah. Surprised the fuck out of me to discover I am in fact a 57 year old Jamaican man.
mainly the pot smoking... lol
Yeah. Surprised the fuck out of me to discover I am in fact a 57 year old Jamaican man.
http://www.baconorbeercan.com/Yeah. Surprised the fuck out of me to discover I am in fact a 57 year old Jamaican man.
Really??? I've always had this really strange fantasy....... is there any chance you might post a NSFW??
Someone shit on the coats... I mean I think someone shit on or around the coat area.....
I think I can now safely say ... that this thread kept reminding me of Dennis the Constitutional Peasant from Monty Python's Holy Grail.
Except he was all "help, help, I'm being repressed."
Ok, lets settle this. Merc left because Dana wouldn't put out.
Sexobon, I never knew you were a funny man.
Wait, you're telling me that "Wtf?" mean "Want to fuck?"???
Clearly the cellar is not a safe and receptive place for me to voice my progressive and anti-oppressive views,
You can't be serious.
Unless there have been some unpublished threats we don't know about, I can't find anything in this thread that constitutes a danger to you.
Your ideas are a different story, they are "under attack", but they should be strong enough to withstand a challenge. If not, they deserve to be taken down.
and so i might not be around much for a while, but if you or any other dwellars want to discuss, earnestly and un-antagonistically or defensively,
What do you mean by this? No disagreement? I've been un-antagonistic and un-defensive in my discourse with you, so let's continue, hm?
how I think generations of oppressive narratives and positions have hurt our nation, how I can't feel comfortable identifying as someone who is "patriotic" in supporting the country I want to serve as a career (as someone who plans to serve in the state dep't as an FSO),
totally legit.
why I believe the "I'll say what I want, I know better than oppressed people how to fix oppression, your political-correctness-run-amok-worldview-makes-things-worse" culture only perpetuates problems...
... I'll say this as plainly as I can. This is what you are doing. You say it's what others are doing and by so doing perpetuate the problem. And you're equally guilty. You've been open about some of the struggles you've faced and how they've informed and equipped you to overcome your difficulties. But others here, *every* other person here, has faced similar challenges, or oppression, or tragedy, or disadvantages or all of the above, that shapes their responses too. No one has a monopoly on being oppressed. You know your story better than anyone, but you don't know all stories better. Your arguments lose strength when you display hypocrisy and contradiction.
If you or any other dwellar really wants to know why I find that argument hurtful to all marginalized Americans, and wants to understand why I am very passionate about my slightly-revolutionary, controversial "core beliefs" about privilege and oppression, please PM me for a contact link.
Consider this your Public Message. I'm all ears.
Ali, xoB, for the record, this post has been incubating for a couple days.
From master debater to master incubator, these are the good old days.
... I'll say this as plainly as I can. This is what you are doing. You say it's what others are doing and by so doing perpetuate the problem. And you're equally guilty. You've been open about some of the struggles you've faced and how they've informed and equipped you to overcome your difficulties. But others here, *every* other person here, has faced similar challenges, or oppression, or tragedy, or disadvantages or all of the above, that shapes their responses too. No one has a monopoly on being oppressed. You know your story better than anyone, but you don't know all stories better.
Your arguments lose strength when you display hypocrisy and contradiction.
The theorem here and among other Dwellars seems to be that Ibby must
know of, understand, show empathy for, and listen to, her elders
before she will be able to effectively discuss her issues.
She should be tolerant of those who do not tolerate her... etc.
I used the word "elders" deliberately because many of the postings have been quite paternalistic,
being presented that if she were just more mature, ready, experienced in life,
knew how much other have suffered, etc. etc. etc.
then she could grasp the wisdom
being showered down upon her and she would certainly change her ways.
If such assumptions were true, everyone would always agree with me,
as I am the eldest Dwellar here; but that certainly is not the case.
I think I understand and agree with Ibby's remark that The Cellar
has recently not been a "safe" place for her to discuss issues
... especially in this thread... and apparently for a long time now.
Is it useful have someone so well respected here say
... "you are equally guilty" and accused of "hypocrisy and contradiction".
but imply that some day you will be ready, and I will mold you.
Ibby is 21 (not 16, as some seem to believe). I fully agree with
so many ideas she publishes here, and it's hard for me
to understand and "tolerate" all the antagonism and paternalism.
Being young is not a crime, even though some here act as if it is, or use it as an excuse.
I believe Ibby is and has been acting very maturely, regardless of her age.
Her's is the time to look for the better way, to look for change, and to proselytize.
If all this "wisdom" is being shown to Ibby is intended to foster this,
maybe people should not try to be quite so helpful, and try some other approach.
If people disagree with Ibby's issues, argue them;
but don't use intimidation based on age, maturity, level of suffering, or whatever.
I just hope this thread does not grind down Ibby's zeal and righteous indignation
whenever bigotry and intolerance are thrust upon her.
The theorem here and among other Dwellars seems to be that Ibby must
know of, understand, show empathy for, and listen to, her elders
before she will be able to effectively discuss her issues.
She should be tolerant of those who do not tolerate her... etc.
No, I don't think that's what anyone is saying, and it's definitely not what I think.
What I DO think is that like most people her age, Ibs is totally absorbed in her own world and own journey, and as I say to my own kids (who are only a few/couple of years younger and tend to have the same mind set at times) that's fine. Get back to me in a few years and let me know if you still feel the same way.
The point is, I make my suggestions, and if they're falling on deaf ears, I am forced to acknowledge that whatever the issue is that we're discussing, I'm forced to let them find their own path because they aren't interested in what 'an old fart like me' has to say about it, cause what would I know?
I recall being similar to that when I was younger. There are many things my parents tried to advise me on during my youth which I refused to accept advice on which I now wish I had, but that's part of growing up. Coming to realise that sometimes the old farts did and still do know what they're talking about. It's where the saying, 'the more you know, the more you find you don't know' comes from.
Kids don't know enough yet to realise how much they don't know. That's ok. That's just the way it is.
eta: Please note that I have made only one comment about thinking that Ib and Merc were both guilty of saying bad stuff to each other. With regard to whatever else Ibs has said in this thread, I have tried to explain it from my own personal perspective. I understand that Ibs needs to do things a certain way and that's fine, but I find now, that i have little or no response to those posts simply because I do feel I have some experience in some of these issues, so I don't need to be told how I 'should' feel about them. Ibs could post about them till the cows come home, and if that makes her feel good, then that's ok by me, but as I mentioned earlier in this thread, I really don't see any benefit in being part of the discussion because I have nothing positive to add. I've said the things I felt might have been helpful and now there is not much more I could say, so why keep talking? I'm pretty sure this is how many others here feel too. They're not saying Ibs shouldn't be saying these things. They're simply saying they have nothing helpful to add.
snip~ If such assumptions were true, everyone would always agree with me,
as I am the eldest Dwellar here; but that certainly is not the case.
Elder respect diminishes with the onset of senility. :p:
I think I understand and agree with Ibby's remark that The Cellar
has recently not been a "safe" place for her to discuss issues
... especially in this thread... and apparently for a long time now.
dis·cuss (d-sks)
tr.v. dis·cussed, dis·cuss·ing, dis·cuss·es
1. To speak with another or others about; talk over.
2. To examine or consider (a subject) in speech or writing.
Making demands, accusations, and fer-me-or-agin-me declarations, isn't opening a discussion, and always leads to defensive push-back.
[COLOR="Silver"]Ibby is 21 (not 16, as some seem to believe). [/COLOR]I fully agree with
so many ideas she publishes here, [COLOR="Silver"]and it's hard for me
to understand and "tolerate" all the antagonism and paternalism.[/COLOR]
I doubt that surprises anyone
Being young is not a crime, even though some here act as if it is, or use it as an excuse.
I believe Ibby is and has been acting very maturely, regardless of her age.
Her's is the time to look for the better way, to look for change, and to proselytize.
Yes that's what college kids do, and the world is a better place for it. The movements incited by college kids, (especially liberal arts colleges), have forced/coerced some improvements in society and at minimum enlightenment the general public. The ones that were successful, were, because of how the went about it, as zeal and conviction are insufficient for winning the attention and respect of the target audience.
I just hope this thread does not grind down Ibby's zeal and righteous indignation whenever bigotry and intolerance are thrust upon her.
If it does, he's certainly not prepared to fight the good fight. Consider it basic training and because of his reaction, I don't think he's ready. He can't separate the cause from the personal, nor argument from enemy, and if people show him the hate he's spewed on merc, I think he'll fold. I hope he'll prove me wrong.
I still don't get why you have a problem with calling Ibby she though.
If you can't go to the ladies room without risking arrest, you're a he, if you can, you're a she. Sexual preference doesn't matter, queers are still separated into the same two bathrooms.
But but, I don't fit in either category, you say.
Then you'll have to come up with your own pronoun.
Yes that's what college kids do, and the world is a better place for it.
The movements incited by college kids, (especially liberal arts colleges),
have forced/coerced some improvements in society and at minimum enlightenment the general public.
[COLOR="DarkRed"]The ones that were successful, were, because of how the went about it[/COLOR],
as zeal and conviction are insufficient for winning the attention and respect of the target audience.
:D
Where were you during the 60/70's Civil Rights/Viet Nam era ?
That sounds so much like the things the "establishment" said then...
... not the right time
... wrong attitude
... wrong way to go about it
Then further down
" ... the hate he's spewed on merc..."
Poor Merc. We hardly knew her ! She was so kind, so gentle, and unassuming, yet so abused.
and your own bathroom.
Great minds...
:D
Where were you during the 60/70's Civil Rights/Viet Nam era ?
That sounds so much like the things the "establishment" said then...
... not the right time
... wrong attitude
... wrong way to go about it
I was trying to convince my parents generation that Nixon was a crook, and the war was totally wrong. Frustrating, but at least most would listen to me, and I could tell some were thinking about it.
I did more good than the hippies singing Kumbaya.
Then further down
Poor Merc. We hardly knew her ! She was so kind, so gentle, and unassuming, yet so abused.
Now now, don't get all emotional about it,.:comfort: merc is tough, he can take it.
I'm not sure why you've referred to Merc in the feminine Lamp. Seriously, Merc never asked anyone to call him her. That was what Ibby did and then cracked up cause some people either forgot or didn't get it or refused for various reasons. From what I recall, that was the main source of contention. Where most of the arguments began. People here were called all sorts of things for not doing as requested, the least of them being homophobic and bigoted.
If you can't go to the ladies room without risking arrest, you're a he, if you can, you're a she. Sexual preference doesn't matter, queers are still separated into the same two bathrooms.
But but, I don't fit in either category, you say.
Then you'll have to come up with your own pronoun.
In this state, I could sue any public establishment that refused me entry into the ladies' room. In practice I tend to find single-occupancy or unisex rooms because it's not arrest i risk, it's
assault or murder.
Oops disproving your own point.
if ibby chooses to be a she, then so be it. i have no problem referring to her with a feminine pronoun. just one question, why should she have this right or privilige and me not have my 2nd amendment rights?
There she was just postin' in the Cellar
Sayin'', "Do wah diddy, diddy, dum you oppressor"
Pointing her finger and imposing her agenda
Sayin', "Do wah diddy, diddy, dum you transgressor"
She sounded rude, she sounded vain (Sounded rude, sounded vain)
She sounded rude, she sounded vain, and I nearly replied the same
Before I knew it she was postin' after me
Sayin', "Do wah diddy, diddy, dum you bigot"
Callin' me out just as innocent as can be
Sayin' " Do wah diddy, diddy, dum you maggot
We talked on about honor (Talked on, about honor)
We talked on about honor, then we discussed her melodrama
Whoa, oh I knew we was taken aback
Yes, I did and so I told her
All the things, I'd been holdin' back
Now we're together nearly every single day
Sayin', "Do wah diddy, diddy, dum we're all dwellars"
We're not happy; but, that's NOT how we're gonna stay
Sayin', "Do wah diddy diddy, dum we're not all fellas"
Well I'm straight, she's not (I'm straight, she's not)
I'm straight, she's not, we're never gonna tie the knot
Whoa, oh I knew we was taken aback
Yes, I did and so I told her
All the things, I'd been holdin' back
Do wah diddy, diddy, dum diddy les, we'll sing it
Do wah diddy, diddy, dum diddy gay
Do wah diddy, diddy, dum diddy bi, let me hear ya!
Do wah diddy, diddy, dum diddy trans.
You're a man of many talents, sexobon.
A regular dark horse, that Sexobon ;)
Is it ok just to be a voyeur? I am not sure I have anything useful to add. I hope you all don't mind if I have a variety of emotions while viewing this thread. Must I present them?
Gift wrap 'em and we'll open them up on the 25th.
The Cellar: There's never any mistletoe around when you need it
The Cellar: There's never any cameltoe around when you need it
Life is tough, sometimes.
[SIZE="3"][COLOR="SeaGreen"]Hos![/COLOR] [COLOR="Red"]Hos![/COLOR] [COLOR="SeaGreen"]Hos! ...[/COLOR] [COLOR="Red"]Mercy[/COLOR] [COLOR="SeaGreen"]Christmas everyone,[/COLOR] [COLOR="Red"]Mercy[/COLOR] [COLOR="SeaGreen"]Christmas[/COLOR][COLOR="Red"]![/COLOR][/SIZE]
(I couldn't resist, on the naughty list, lump of coal for me) :p:
