Tolerance
tol·er·ance   [tol-er-uhns] Show IPA
noun
1.
a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, practices, race, religion, nationality, etc., differ from one's own; freedom from bigotry.
2.
a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward opinions and practices that differ from one's own.
3.
interest in and concern for ideas, opinions, practices, etc., foreign to one's own; a liberal, undogmatic viewpoint.
4.
the act or capacity of enduring; endurance: My tolerance of noise is limited.
5.
Medicine/Medical, Immunology .
a.
the power of enduring or resisting the action of a drug, poison, etc.: a tolerance to antibiotics.
b.
the lack of or low levels of immune response to transplanted tissue or other foreign substance that is normally immunogenic.
http://www.tolerance.org/
IN order to be tolerated I must first learn to tolerate.
IN order to be tolerated I must first learn to tolerate.
You know enough to say it. Do you know enough to do it?
*high fives JBK*
You're on the right track.
:D Now for a funny:
i.m., you are very funny.
JBK--good luck, man. It is harder than it looks, and it requires constant effort. Worth it though.
You know enough to say it. Do you know enough to do it?
Yes I believe so..
I have to work on it too. I'm mouthy. ;)
yeah, but it's a funny mouth.
[COLOR="LemonChiffon"]
Ok, that came out weird.[/COLOR]
re: tolerance, specifically intolerance for same sex marriage:
[ATTACH]38460[/ATTACH]
I have to work on it too. I'm mouthy. ;)
yeah, but it's a funny mouth.
[YOUTUBE]ylI86NhPyAk[/YOUTUBE]
An apology would be a good start.
hehehe
[YOUTUBE]pc0mxOXbWIU&ob[/YOUTUBE]
SPIRIT OF ERROR - (1John 4:6)
Unsubmissive - Prov. 29:1; 1 John 4:6.
Unteachable - Prov. 10:17; 12:1; 13:18; 15:10, 12, 32;
2 Tim. 4 1-4; 1 Jn.4:6
Error - Prov. 14:22; 1 John 4:6; 2 Pet. 3:16-17
False Doctrines - 1 Tim. 6:20-21; 2 Tim. 4:3; Tit.3:10;
1 John 4:1-6
Defensive/Argumentative/Contentious - Jas. 3:16
Servant of Corruption - 2 Pet. 2:19
New Age Movement - 2 Pet. 2:10; 2 Thess.
Bind: Spirit of Error
Loose: Spirit of Truth
(1 John 4:6; Ps. 51:10)
O'ld B'lack M'en.
You got to figure that if you are old and black and have not been shot or thrown in jail, you must be very wise. Black people by far have the ruff-est toughest child hood in America and that is why I LOVE Black people...
Oh, look .... A whole new pile of shit you've found to step in.
'grats!
re·tard·ed
adj, \ri-ˈtär-dəd\
Definition of RETARDED
: slow or limited in intellectual or emotional development or academic progress
OK, everybody. It is again politically acceptable to call someone retarded. I repeat, you may resume calling people retarded. :eyebrow:
Just don't call them black or ghey or hermaphroditic. :right:
This word means something:
slow or limited in intellectual or emotional development
Right. I didn't call him a retard.
I would like to take this opportunity to completely, totally, unashamedly, unabashedly, unquestionably, without reservation, without doubt, without regard to what I may have said in the past, in public or in private, disavow any knowledge, relationship, or pleasant regard concerning this JBKlyde you speak of.
Dang JB, just stop, man.:lol2:
This word means something:
I'll ask my negroid (or heshe might be mulatto, I'm not sure) hermaphroditic mongoloid friend if that's acceptable.
What? They're all scientifically valid words that mean something. :lol:
Come on, lighten up, francis. :D
So I'm saying I love black people and in 'essence' pledging allegiance to the president.. and your saying to hell with me.. ok well no one supported me 10 years ago when I said we we're trying to get a black president elected either.. and noone supported me when I said I wanted to do a show in Iraq before we got attacked so I guess when I'm a millionaire no will support then either..
JB, I think that most didn't get what you were trying to say. I wish I could help you with your communication skills because I'm sure you're frustrated.
Which is kind of my point with my always snide sense of humor responses: it's like we are looking for 'politically incorrect', rotten tomatoes in hand, and I find that as offensive as anything else.
I mean, if I said "BOO" someone could accuse me of being racist.
Or maybe they'd think I also had a soft spot for Boo Radley. Which, I do. ;)
I just take issue that you didn't include quadroons and octaroons on your list.
A lick of the tar brush still counts you know.
Shine on, a new level of bizarre.
Also...don't much like the word 'retard' either. Don't like it being used as an insult. The people who would once have been called that and are now termed learning disabled are no more or less likely to be a twat or a dickhead than anyone else.
Yeah...that was as much an opportunity to throw in dickhead and twat as ought else, if I'm entirely honest :p
I mean, if I said "BOO" someone could accuse me of being racist
yogie why do people smoke, I don't know boo boo but I wouldn't do it if I were you...
So I'm saying I love black people and in 'essence' pledging allegiance to the president..
Strike three! This is just as offensive as the last thing you said. You just can't win, can you?
I really can't decide if he is just hopelessly inept, or a rather clever and patient troll.
My gut says he's just all fucked up. but my suspicious mind sees the effect he has, and wants to find that cause.... one who gets people arguing over random topics is, by definition a troll. Now.. is it just happenstance, or is it done by design?
idonfuckeno
That's pretty much what's been going through my mind this thread.
If I was to go postal, I'd call him a[COLOR="LightBlue"] [strike]f*cking niger[/strike][/COLOR].
Does that make my statement OK? Fuck that. What kind of bullshit excuse is that?
The guy needs to go.
And the attempts to turn this onto flint or jim just distracts from the real issue.
The guy needs to go. Insane or not, doesn't matter.
The door is over there - don't let it hit you in the ass.
I think he's standing on the platform looking helplessly at fistfuls of tickets for clue-trains that have long since left the station. These posts are frustrated pleas to us gate agents, some of whom patiently try to tell him that ticket's invalid, some of whom turn off the microphone and turn their backs. He's trying to get somewhere, anywhere, but he's stuck here. Fortunately, there's always another train arriving, maybe he'll stumble on one and make a connection.
Strike three! This is just as offensive as the last thing you said. You just can't win, can you?
Not as offensive as being casted off into exile for seeking justice... it's not wether you win or loose it's how you play the game.. and all I see you doing is getting all stired up over nothing..
I think he's standing on the platform looking helplessly at fistfuls of tickets for clue-trains that have long since left the station. These posts are frustrated pleas to us gate agents, some of whom patiently try to tell him that ticket's invalid, some of whom turn off the microphone and turn their backs. He's trying to get somewhere, anywhere, but he's stuck here. Fortunately, there's always another train arriving, maybe he'll stumble on one and make a connection.
__________________
Yea that's exactly what's going on I even said it "the spirit is willing but the robot is stuck.. so watch me blaze my own trail...
Try a trail somewhere else. Like way over there >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Being kind doesn't always mean being permissive. At some point you have to wonder whether it is logically possible to send a message about tolerable behavior by tolerating intolerable behavior. Really doesn't make sense when you think of it that way. So the question is: how do you deal with a broken person who says they want help? I believe that step number one--and this is a deal breaker--is being able to believe that they are receptive to real help. That means a number of things: hard work, honesty, and dropping one's conceits. This work must be done by the recipient, and there is not one single thing a "helper" can do with someone who isn't willing to put themselves in this position. You can't help someone who already believes that they have all the answers (meaning--all the answers are kept in one magic book that is never wrong).
(meaning--all the answers are kept in one magic book that is never wrong).
Your referring to the bible I assume. It's not magic and it has many answers. The underlying truth is that it is open to interpretation. Maybe one person interprets one way and another person a different way but the truth is "the bible is the absolute truth" and the truth never lies. If you can't apply a biblical concept to fix what's going wrong with your life maybe you need to search a little harder.
"the bible is the absolute truth" Bullshit.
"you need to search a little harder. " yes you do and not there.
I think you "classicman" need to improve your vocabulary it seems that the word bull sh*t is all you know. Maybe because your just so filled with it that that's all that comes out when you open your mouth. "It's not what goes into a man's body that makes you unclean/evil it's whats comes out."
Hahahaaaaa - yeh right.
You're just a frikkin religious troll spouting your stories because you
were told that the only way to your fairyland was if you do so.
Thats no different than the "72 virgins in paradise" argument.
honestly I just have nothing better to do...
I knew that early on.
Good riddance - IWNFTT.
As if your some superhero with this great theological ability..I think NOT If your not a little bit crazy your a little bit stupid...
Christ, folks, if he's a nutjob: ignore him.
If he's a troll: ignore him.
If he's both: ignore him.
Not a one of you is obligated to entertain him or his notions.
It's not that complicated.
Seriously. Put the freaking pitchforks away and get on with your lives. ;)
A wise woman once said that if she were wrong about a poster and they actually were trolling it would be ok with her because she erred on the side of kind.
I have to agree with that.
Oh, and JBK, I've always said "if you're not a little crazy (sometimes I substitute 'weird') you're boring."
:lol:
...erred on the side of kind.
Teaching a person where they have gone wrong, and how to start down a path of improving themselves, is kind. Coddling them, letting them go unchecked, making excuses for them, not correcting their errors--these things are not kind. Being "nice" is not being kind.
Teaching a person where they have gone wrong, and how to start down a path of improving themselves, is kind. Coddling them, letting them go unchecked, making excuses for them, not correcting their errors--these things are not kind. Being "nice" is not being kind.
Which I have tried to do, not by poking him with my pitchfork and yelling a lot, but by talking to him about where he went over the line into unacceptable.
I'm not making excuses for anyone, but I am starting to think I should be making excuses for why in the hell some are taking JBK
not being banned as a personal affront. It really makes no sense; it's sandbox behavior.
And I'm the first person who will sling barbs at the deserving. It is my hunch that JBK is not deserving of that...do you think I have absolutely no clue at all about human behavior? Maybe if you yell at me enough, tell me how horrible I am, I can be coerced into the groupthink. But probably not.
Infi, that's unfair. Each of us come to this with different opinions. Several people share a similar opinion and voice them, and even agre with each other within the conversation. Likewise several other people similarly share an opposing view to the first, and they voice their opinion, and occasionally agree with each other within the conversation.
Neither side of that equation is 'group think'. Neither side is acting any differently to the other side. Both are being vocal, both are stating their opinions forcefully, and both seem to be attributing specific negative attributes and behaviours to the other side in their quest to be heard.
Can't stand on one side of the canyon yelling at the person on the other side to stop yelling and still claim any difference between you.
Oh come on.
Is this seriously happening here? Have I entered the Twilight Zone?
I haven't yelled once. Flint has vehemently called for bans, in the internet equivalent of podium pounding. I have suggested we not ban. I have, however, laughed at these goings-on. I've never seen anything quite like it.
Unfair? Wow. I see 'unfair' all over the place on this subject. My mouth is hanging open in disbelief.
Seems to me: lots of folks here are looking to get egos 'stroked' and 'fortified' by ganging up on the nutjob/troll.
Easiest thing in the world: find an obvious repugnance and then crow about how awful that person is...a body can't lose...similar persons of low character jump on the bandwagon...lynching commences.
Seems to me: if any and all were really interested in being rid of the nutjob/troll, then each would simply ignore, ignore, ignore.
*shrug*
i've been ignoring you for over 3 years, though!
;)
Maybe if we could get away from the "podium" and "pitchfork" characterizations and actually listen with the intent of understanding.
That being said, a very hard lesson I have learned, out of necessity, is that when there is a misunderstanding involving a breakdown in communication, it is the speaker that has to admit fault in order for things to move forward.
So, I am sorry that I haven't explained my position clearly.
What I have been trying to say is that helping people is hard. It's hard because they have to do it themselves. From the outside, all we can do is offer guidance--signposts. The person can ignore them, pay attention to them, act on them, or not.
Imagine if a car was speeding dangerously down the highway. The driver might harm himself, or others. He isn't reading the speed limit signs. He isn't paying attention to the flashing lights and sirens. He smashes through the roadblocks.
The only thing you can do is put down some tire strips. Disable that vehicle, get it off the road. Put the driver in jail. Take away his driver's license.
You aren't stopping his vehicle out of mean-spiritedness. He is a danger to himself!
You can't make him stop by being nice, by ignoring him, or by wording the signposts in a different way--he isn't reading them anyway. Obviously a different approach is called for if any positive outcome is to be made possible. I haven't heard any other feasible options besides removing him from the situation. He may reflect on what has happened, he may not. Nothing we can say or do has the power to directly influence that choice.
Oh come on.
Is this seriously happening here? Have I entered the Twilight Zone?
I haven't yelled once. Flint has vehemently called for bans, in the internet equivalent of podium pounding. I have suggested we not ban. I have, however, laughed at these goings-on. I've never seen anything quite like it.
Unfair? Wow. I see 'unfair' all over the place on this subject. My mouth is hanging open in disbelief.
It was the groupthink comment, really. Just seems to me that it looks like group think from the other side of any argument.
And you have seen something exactly like it before. Every time the argument about whether or not to ban a member comes around.
I'd say you've been just as vehement about your opinion here. And, some of the people vehemently arguing for a ban have on previous occasions just as vehemtnly argued against a ban, and vice versa.
Whichever side of the argument you are on, you say the other is being ridiculous :p
PS, in no way do I want JB banned.
I like to read his threads. I don't care if he makes a new one for every hair that goes across his ass, either.
Has anyone considered that if he thinks it is okay to say these things in public, he will probably end up getting his teeth kicked in?
If we don't tell him, "THIS IS NOT OKAY." then we are doing him a disservice.
"i've been ignoring you for over 3 years, though!"
Can't say I missed your attention... ;)
#
Flint, this is the net, not the highway...you can't 'help' him and you can't stop him...but: you (and others) can ignore him (instead of using him as your soapbox).
Ii think the original comment was ban worthy. That said, I also accept that he's been here and a part of the community long enough for us to cut some slack and accept that his particular state of mind is likely to produce inappropriate behaviour at times.
I think the shit storm that blew up around it was absolutely warranted and served a positive purpose in drawing to JB's attention just how unacceptable that behaviour is in this community.
It's not about soap boxes. We all have a stake in this community and sometimes how we see ourselves is challenged by something. It is appropriate, in my view, to have these discussions at such times. It's not just about the individuals, it's about who we are as a community.
That may be exactly what he needs...not for you or I to say...certainly not for you or I to prevent.
I doubt any of this mobbish behavior has a damn thing to do with 'being of service', anyway.
Self-aggrandizement, thy name is (average) cellar (dweller).
##
"..this community..." "...these discussions..."
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
'Me: don't give a shit why flint or dana or any or them do what they do...I'm pretty sure I nailed the(ir) motivation in my post.'
'I don't give a shit about the nutjob/troll...fuck 'em.'
'I involved myself not to defend or attack, but to point out the absurdity of going on and on about the nutjob when getting rid of him is easy-peasy.'
'just ignore him and watch him (1) reform himself, or (2) go away.'
'That no one does says way more about each of them than it does his 'crime'.'
With that: I leave 'you' folks to saving souls and redeeming lives... :neutral:
Ignoring him would be the absolute worst thing we could do. This is my opinion. I believe that he is asking for help (correct me if I am wrong about this). The problem is that he doesn't like the help he's getting, so he ignores it, or attacks in retaliation, retreating to an "easy" position, i.e. black-and-white characterizations (which are wildly irrelevant to learning anything about the actual situation). This is the person which you tell, "I'm sorry, I love you, but you have to leave." This IS the help. Ignoring is not the same thing.
There is no mob, soapbox, groupthink, or pitchfork invloved in this.
I must say I am slightly disappointed to hear that. I'd quite like a go at a pitchfork...
I don't see what's funny about this being a community or these being discussions.
Does henry not relish the feeling of self-aggrandizement he gets through chastising us from his soapbox?
Oops! Watch that double-edged sword.
You could have somebody's eye out wi'that!
I think the bridge is just out. And we are all piling up in traffic. Each just rear ending each other. It just so happens that I was the first one in line and I am about to get pushed over. And querks it's the 'information super highway'..
"I am about to get pushed over."
No, looks to me as if you're jumping of your own accord.
Good luck with that.
#
"And querks it's the 'information super highway'."
No, it's an overrated, ill-used, network of over-powered and over-priced calculators. Nothing more or less.
##
"Does henry not relish the feeling of self-aggrandizement he gets through chastising us from his soapbox?"
No, I relish the self-edification.
##
"I don't see what's funny about this being a community or these being discussions."
I know you don't...that's part of what makes it funny.
I mean, if I said "BOO" someone could accuse me of being racist.
Stop making fun of cows with sinus problems.:mad:
(Boo = Cows with sinus problems ) :lol: that's funny grav.
Is it just me, or is henry an arrogant asshole?
I mean, it really could just be me..... I truly have been ignoring him.
You are not alone in your opinions.
Is it just me, or is henry an arrogant asshole?
I do not think that means what you think it means. If he was arrogant he'd post more often to establish his superiority. Asshole, could be.
but why are you resorting to name-calling at this point? It's a little out of character.
:muse:
monster, you are not alone in your posts. Never feel alone. Whenever you start to feel alone just make a post and I will be there to nod my head at whatever you post because I will agree with you, and I need you to know that and accept me because I know you know everything about everyone and I do too but I can only say it if someone else says it because I have to hide behind you because the world is big and cold and I'm frightened and alone and I hope that's OK with you because I weally wuv you and I want to have like ten thousand of your babies, awe, I mean AW, and please tell me who to like or not like next because this fence post is fucking killing my ass. Awe. Aw. Hee haw. :kisspink:
"an arrogant asshole"
All in the eye of the beholder.
#
"I truly have been ignoring him"
Do us both a favor: go back to doing that.
##
"You are not alone in your opinions"
I’m sure he's not.
Irrelevant to me.
##
IM: HA!
Is it just me, or is henry an arrogant asshole?
I mean, it really could just be me..... I truly have been ignoring him.
I do not think that means what you think it means. If he was arrogant he'd post more often to establish his superiority. Asshole, could be.
but why are you resorting to name-calling at this point? It's a little out of character.
monster, you're quarreling with jimhelm's use of "arrogant"? Arrogant doesn't have anything to do with the frequency or quantity of communication, but with the tone or attitude of such communication or actions.
ar·ro·gant
   [ar-uh-guhnt]
adjective
1.
making claims or pretensions to superior importance or rights; overbearingly assuming; insolently proud: an arrogant public official.
I'd say these apply to the tone of his posts much of the time. He frequently extracts quotes from other posters and corrects them, sometimes he comments on them. I think arrogant is a fair description. I don't think asshole applies nearly as well however. Obviously the literal definition doesn't apply like arrogant does, but even the idiomatic use of "asshole" is a poor fit for his behavior, in my opinion. I don't see a pattern of meanness or callousness in his posts that would justify "asshole". It's a fine line though. He does seem impervious to input from others. I can only recall one instance where he changed his position, and he did so graciously.
***
In a somewhat different light, I double checked the definition of arrogant to make sure "it meant what I thought it meant" and the page listing the definition had a helpful "Matching Quote" (below). You've almost certainly heard or read the quote before, and the word "arrogant" was in bold in the quote, fine, fine. But I got a giggle from the attribution at the bottom of the quote. :lol2:
Matching Quote
"If I speak in the tongues of mortals and of angels, but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give away all my possessions, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing. Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends. But as for prophecies, they will come to an end; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will come to an end. For we know only in part, and we prophesy only in part; but when the complete comes, the partial will come to an end. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became an adult, I put an end to childish ways. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known. And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love."
-unknown author
:corn:
I'm sorry, that's awful merky of me.
Aweful.
There's a joke somewhere in here about the hilarity of a thread about tolerance full of intolerance, and posts about arrogance made by the arrogant. It sends shivers up and down my spine in its simplistic beauty. Youse guys are a hoooooooooooot. :lol:
*snickers*
Oh, I'm not going to play your little semantics game. ;)
Sometimes I feel like I'm on Cellar Candid Camera.:dunce:
IM,
Just *shrug* and let it go.
*shrug* (Yellow shirt shrugger)
[YOUTUBE]YBPcoI4OE9Y[/YOUTUBE]
That's better. A group shrug. :)
but why are you resorting to name-calling at this point? It's a little out of character.
GAH!! I just spit Sprite all over the living room.
Isn't this just how you picture him? I know the Brits can't help themselves.....
[ATTACH]38570[/ATTACH]
henry sucks :lol:
Isn't this just how you picture him? I know the Brits can't help themselves.....
[ATTACH]38570[/ATTACH]
henry sucks :lol:
Are you trying to tell me you Brits Hoover® with a Henry®?
:p:
Sorry, henry.
So, I was rushed when I posted that, but thought I should expound.
I have not been ignoring you, henry.... I misspoke probably because of that previous joke I had made. I should have said that I am ignorant of you. No doubt because you prefer topics which I avoid.
I should not have called you an asshole either. Monster is quite right. Name calling is shitty, and juvenile. Unless its funny. I was trying to be funny, but don't know you well enough to cast such judgments. It was, I'm afraid, the vodka talking.
Anyway, I was hasty. You may be both of those things....and I probably wouldn't have posted what I did if you weren't at least acting that way at the time, but still. Any friend of shaw has to have something to recommend him.
So... Sorry!
:hugs back:
::and covertly squeezes your bum::
;)
#
"henry sucks"
Nope: I bite... ;)
Aw, bless!
[ATTACH]38580[/ATTACH]
Oh look, Jim sucks too!
[ATTACH]38581[/ATTACH]
The pink one's really called Hetty. Do we have any IRL hettys on the board? And I found a green George. And Henrys of all colors. He's multiracial, you know.
OK I never do this I never do this I won't do this I won't do this...eh, fuck it.
He still has a big hose.
FTFY
That reminds me of that thing Frank Skinner got going on his radio show. Whever you see someone wearing one of those full length black leather coats, you have to say: Ooooh, Matrix!
Bring back polari, I say.
Ooh! Vada the dolly drag! Cod eek though.
*hugs jim*
so you mean if I get to know you really good I might actually get a hug to??
*hug JB... Manly thump on the back*
Oh. You were speaking to shaw, huh?
I'm santa clause disguised as a bum who's been beatin up by fake rockstars...
Sundae! So bona to vada!
Always good to vada your dolly eek, palone.
Fantabulosa ends dearie, been to the crimper?
Oh it's meece! Cod crimper, not worth the handbag, no zhoosh.
Should set lilly on her for ruining my riah.
They already mentioned, It's Polari. A slang language built mostly on Italian and Romani (that is to say, "gypsy") roots, popular once-upon-a-time among gay and other countercultural groups in Britain, especially among circus-folk, carnie types, and the associated actor types and such. It's actually terrifically interesting, I suggest looking it up. Not that I'm particularly confident you would entirely understand what you read and discover about Polari and, well, any subculture EVER, but, I have to tell myself that information is the best way to understand and respect diversity.
Otnay atthay Iway inkthay ouyay ouldshay udgejay AjayEebay's abilityway otay earnlay otay onceway againway ovepray owhay erfectlypay ifferentday ouyay areway, utbay ywhay areway ouyay osay ondescingway otay imhay ecausebay ehay askedway aboutway itway?
Ittyshay.
fway fway sway, ententiouspray uchmay, eoplepay?
Did you just call us pretentious for speaking in polari?
No, I called Ibram pretentious for saying, in answer to JB's question, that he could never understand such a lofty concept as diversity.
Though diverse JB certainly is.
I never got Pig Latin.
Probably makes me stupid.
I get confused when timelines cross as well, which makes stories including the Doctor and River Song extremely problematic...
I have some people on ignore so I don't get cross.
So no posts are aimed at anyone in particular, they are simply thread drift.
You wouldn't like me if I was cross.
I bust my shirt and everything.
PS - can I be minus 8lbs please.
I'm not sure what it means but I certainly don't need to gain half a stone..
I don't care about the language. I learned something too.
And no, Pig Latin is actually pretty stupid.
I take offense to most of Ibram's speeches about diversity including a dig at how this person or that person couldn't possibly understand.
He's like the first and only person different from everyone else.
I like Ibram, but I call it as I see it.
Ahhh. Gotcha.
I don't think that's Ibs being pretentious, but rather she's reached a judgement on JB's ability to accept certain types of subculture. Whether that's a fair judgement is not for me to say, but it didn't exactly come out of the blue or without any cause.
Just because JB is a sub-culture of one all by his very self, does not mean that he has any acceptance of difference in others, particularly if they breach his faith-based moral boundaries, which most of the sub-cultures Ibs is/has been a part of would. As indeed wuold the sub-culture that bore the Polari language.
You defended JB and his right to be different in these boards. That doesn't obligate Ibs to modify her opinion of JB one iota.
No, you're right. He doesn't need to modify his opinion. However, his constant cries for equality for the different coupled with such opinions of other people's differences seems a bit hypocritical to me. I get tired of it, and he should be more mindful. He's young, I think he'll learn a lot as he goes through life, and I think he's a pretty good person...but it raises my hackles every time. :(
I understand. But try and see things from his perspective on this one. Such a sensitive thing as sexuality and gender identity. And, as we all know (:p) very specifically a sensitive issue for Ibs and one which h/she has grappled with through various levels of confusion, depression, elation, confidence and fear...
And JB trampled heavily on that ground. Several really nasty comments driving straight to the very heart of why that stuff hurts so disproportionately to the actual harm done.
Now, I am not saying it was a one-sided affair. Ibs has said some things to/about JB that I find uncomfortable also. But again, and again, across a period of about 4 weeks, JB found occasion to make snide comments either about Ibs, or more generally about gay, queer, transgender people. Most often these comments were ignored by all. On one occasion I recall classicman called JB out on one of them, and told him he was being a real dick making comments like that. But on the whole we ignored it. And you, ignored it.
but it's kind of difficult to ignore when you are the person being alluded to in a series of shitty comments about how little your kind matters, and how it's your kind that cause the world's ills, and how your kind will have no place in the world he envisages and hopes for.
You ignored most of JB's bitchy comments. Why not show Ibs the same regard?
Because he's annoyingly evangelical about diversity and gender stuff? Because he approaches these things with the kind of zeal that actually serves to undermine some o fthe basic tenets of that acceptance? Well, hell he's a youngster. We all discover this shit for the first time, and we all understand in a way our parents and elders never could, and we all go through those things in one form or another.
To be fair, I actually am unconvinced he'll understand shit because he has such an associative way of approaching new information, due to his mental condition, and as such I (condescendingly, yes) simply doubt that he will read the wikipedia page on Polari and "get" it - more likely, he will respond with something about how he likes the gypsies as much as he likes the niggers but the bible says america should speak english cause he bleeds America. I'm being (fairly or unfairly) ableist about his handicap, and therefore nasty and condescending, but not pretentious about my OWN experience understanding diverse and countercultural groups.
I'm just being a douche and calling him a crazy fuck.
also, IM:
No, you're right. He... his... his... He's... he'll... he... he's...
If I'm reading you right, you mean me here? *She, dear, if you missed the
memo. Yeah, I know i start out saying nah pronouns dont matter, but they've started to, so i'm trying to correct people as politely as possible. Thanks!
No. I propose you change your username. From now on, I would like you to recognize my inner rutabaga. (Just a little levity, before I go...feel offended as you see fit but it's really a joke, though I should probably sway from rafters for daring to joke about such important matters.)
And it's OK, because I am absolutely unconvinced that you will understand that acceptance of differences does not just apply when it's something you like, or something you want to paint pretty, or something that seems lofty and lovely to you. It applies to everyone.
I don't expect anyone to be perfect on this matter, gourd knows I'm not, but I'm not calling a duck a bison here. Intolerance abounds.
In case there is still some misunderstanding, the matter of mental illness has touched my life (and yeah, not just my own) and the absolute refusal of some people to not tie a person's entire being up in the ribbons of disgust you've picked from the big picture is completely disingenuous and hypocritical.
And really, I'm so tired of it. So very fucking tired of the hypocrisy.
So, basically, this is all hitting one of your buttons. This is an issue that drives home for you.
JB hit Ib's buttons. This stuff matters. This stuff hurts. Our treatment of JB hurts you and it wasn't even directed at you. JB hurt Ibs directly.
But somehow Ib's is supposed to just shrug that shit off and be superunderstanding of JB's mental health issues. She's got to float above it all and not give in to that human desire to hit back and take a swipe at someone who hurt her.
You do not hold back when you are hurt. You do not rise above it when people swipe at you. You do not turn the other cheek. Why do you expect it of Ibs?
Is it because the thing that hurts Ibs doesn't resonate for you the same way that JB's mental health does? is it really that simple? Please tell me it isnt.
You dismiss Ib's concerns and Ib's hurt withe every post in this thread. You have stood in judgement over what someone else should find hurtful to them, and then drawn a line accordingly.
[eta]Just to be clear, Infi, I am really not trying to have a go at you. I am slightly bemused by some of your responses.
No.
With all due respect because I really like you as a Dwellar and a person, that is not fair.
Of the four people currently involved in the discussion, Ibs is the only one I know who hasn't sought treatment for mental health issues. It is highly likely she has, I just don't want to assume. You, me and Dana have.
So there is no pussyfooting about here. We're not ignorant of the issues. During treatment we've certainly met people who have issues deeper and darker than our own.
This is not the Treehouse Club.
This is someone who - mental health issues aside - is espousing values we (the Cellar) disagree with.
Disagree with vehemently.
What if a poster was hung up on the Gospel of St Paul? The part where women are subjugated? Where they cannot be in charge of men?
What about the twisting of that which allows men to beat women?
Would you support a viewpoint like that just because the person writing it had mental health issues?
I'm sure you wouldn't. You are a good person and a strong woman.
No-one here is anti-JBK for his health. My goodness, UT is bi-polar and we pack a full bag of other afflictions and I know you know that. We're anti what he has expressed. And again, before thinking this is a hate campaign, imagine he was talking about gunning down women at a march. Just because they were women. He is unlikely to ever do it, but think about how it affects your opinion of him.
BTW - Ibram is a made up name.
Could be male or female. I can't see how that could be a sticking point.
Thanks for the support, dana and sundae, but in the case of my "you won't understand" comment, no, IM's right. It was out of line. Like I said, it was ableist and condescending, and as someone who's also struggled with mental health issues I should totally know better. It was an unfair dig at his mental problems, and that should be just as out of line - to anyone, hurt or not - as attacking me for my identity or whatever. I apologise to JB and to IM - it was, let me be clear, out of line for me to hit back that way. It was a reflection of the fact that I, to be honest, don't particularly appreciate JB's contribution to the forum, and find myself at best frustrated by the disingenuousness with which he responds to topics - but making that into a dig at his mental health issues, so condescendingly, IS out of line.
You're right, Ibs, it was out of line. Mostly when we attack people who've hurt us we use the weapons we have that they don't.
It was out of line but it was, in my view, eminently understandable that you were bitchy with JB (ie ableist). That's the point I wanted to make. calling you out as unusually hypocritical because you lashed out with a bitchy comment to someone who'd been such a dick to you seemed unfair.
Bitchy is one thing. Ableist and dismissive is another. Attacking JB that way - being ableist - isn't a PERSONAL attack. It's a categoric attack, on par with racism, sexism, and the other isms. If i was just being bitchy, i'd be standing by it. What I did was like dismissing the niggers cause a black person said something gay-bashing.
Fair enough. I didn't see it as being ableist. Dismissive yes. Suggesting he wouldn't get it seemed to me based on his faith/political views as recently espoused as anything else.
That's not to say you havent made ableist comments before this. In response to one of JB's religious posts. And I think you got called out on it at the time, and indeed stepped back from it.
I'm sure I've said ableist things before. I'm sure I've said racist things before. I'm sure I've said sexist things before. When I don't intend them that way, or don't think I intend them that way, I renounce it, because I know how easy it can be to be offensive without meaning to be. If someone wants to peg ANYTHING i say as ___-ist, i almost always take their word for it, if i feel like they construed me accurately and still found it offensive. Just like it's not my place to say whether or not someone else's comments are offensive to black people, or to christians, or to any other group I'm not part of, I'm not going to try to defend something that was just plain old in bad taste and offensive, unless the offense comes from either a misreading, a misunderstanding, or from something I'm willing to stand by.
*nods*
Oh I get it. I just don't like the double standard you are apparently being held to by others.
I just think that nothing on the level of personal attacks deserves ____-ism as a response, even when provoked. I think there should be a more or less inviolable rule against it. I don't really see where the double standard lies.
I have to stop reading this thread. It's turning me into an anti-ist-ist.
I just think that nothing on the level of personal attacks deserves ____-ism as a response, even when provoked. I think there should be a more or less inviolable rule against it. I don't really see where the double standard lies.
The double standard lies where you are picked up on for something that could, at a stretch be seen as 'ableist' yet outright bigotry which can be nothing but outright bigotry is something which should just be let past.
The doublestandard exists where your hurt, and your personal buttons are considered petty and hypocritical whilst another's should be regarded and taken into account.
And I guess I disagree cause no amount of me being attack justifies that sort of response. I don't think JB should get a pass for his wild intolerance, and I think most of us haven't given him one. I don't think I should get a pass if I cross the line into ableism, either.
Incidentally, whilst we're talking about buttons. I had a friend many years ago, back in Bolton, who went through a sex change. When I met her, she was going through the mandatory two years of living as her chosen sex. Going for a drink with her was an education. Shocking levels of outright hostility.
Currently I have a friend who is partway through her change of gender. She has been trying to get onto a PhD course for the last two years. They seem interested until they meet her. Now, that could be because she can be a little full-on...but that is the sort of thing that will put off that or this admissions tutor...I wouldn't have expected it to carry across five or six institutions.
When I was around 15, my elder cousin had the ever loving shit kicked out of him for being gay. I remember very clearly the shape of his face for several weeks afterwards.
I also, as Sundae alluded to, have had my share of contact with the wonderful world of mental distress. Aside from my own forays into treatment, I have friends and family members who've been through that mill, some very dark indeed. And as someone who taught, though briefly, learning disabled adults, I find my hackles rising when someone is targeted or dismissed for a lack of intelligence or formal education.
Everything happens on a scale.
Nothing about JB's mental health or intelligence means he wouldn't get Polari. His politics and his religion might. So you stood from your greater height of intelligence and education and looked down on the guy who wifully refuses education in favour of religious salves. When I hear you say that schizophrenics are worthless and wouldn't be allowed to live in your preferred world order, I'll deem you to be on the same turf.
@ JBK: here you go:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polari
That gives you a potted history of the language (actually, a kind of secret slang/code) and how it fits into British culture.
Ha! I found a tube!
[YOUTUBE]pH2hsPVWKeo[/YOUTUBE]
[youtube]OZL4rTEWU5c[/youtube]
Y'know. If every slight becomes an ism, it will get veryhard to spot the dangerous ones :p
Thanks for the support, dana and sundae, but in the case of my "you won't understand" comment, no, IM's right. It was out of line. Like I said, it was ableist and condescending, and as someone who's also struggled with mental health issues I should totally know better. It was an unfair dig at his mental problems, and that should be just as out of line - to anyone, hurt or not - as attacking me for my identity or whatever. I apologise to JB and to IM - it was, let me be clear, out of line for me to hit back that way. It was a reflection of the fact that I, to be honest, don't particularly appreciate JB's contribution to the forum, and find myself at best frustrated by the disingenuousness with which he responds to topics - but making that into a dig at his mental health issues, so condescendingly, IS out of line.
Ibram, you are a class act. Thank your for taking the time to understand where I was coming from.
We've espoused "teaching" the socially inept, but it seems that is only lip service in some cases. My point was that he asked a question, and it was nice of you to explain it to him, and the 'never understand' was unneccessary. It's NOT a huge thing, of course, but I think it needed noted.
I really never thought JBK meant that comment as much more than a really poor attempt at humor and trying to fit in. Maybe I've self-appointed myself as his advocate. *shrugs* So what? I am not ready to give up on him, and I do like a lot of his contributions and find him interesting.
He was rightfully called on it. But not forgiven nor did anyone try to understand anything beyond their own ire.
But you did. Thank you.
*nods*
Oh I get it. I just don't like the double standard you are apparently being held to by others.
No. I told JBK his words were inappropriate too. I didn't try to ride him out on a rail because of it, but I told him he was wrong. I used the word: wrong.
Choose to see the whole picture.
----------------------------------
Though there is much of my life experience no one here will ever know about, don't assume that I haven't been through my share of hell. Your hell is not my hell, my hell is not yours. I just choose to keep much of it where it should be: hidden in the dark recesses. That pain is intricately mine and no one elses. If you cut me, I do indeed bleed. My mild irritants...sure, you'll hear all about those. ;) I do hope for the same considerations of what might be of what is not known, as to the buttons.
And I'm glad this whole ordeal maybe turned into a teaching/learning moment for some of us, me included.
Thanks again, Ibram.
----------------------------------
Though there is much of my life experience no one here will ever know about, don't assume that I haven't been through my share of hell. Your hell is not my hell, my hell is not yours. I just choose to keep much of it where it should be: hidden in the dark recesses. That pain is intricately mine and no one elses. If you cut me, I do indeed bleed. My mild irritants...sure, you'll hear all about those. ;) I do hope for the same considerations of what might be of what is not known, as to the buttons.
.
That is exactly the point I was trying to make:p
Fair enough.
I was hung up on the original posts.
I put JB on ignore precisely because I didn't think it fair to keep responding to him. Because it turns out all I could do was take cheap shots.
Introducing Polari was not targeted.
I'm a cunning linguist and it amuses me - I've raised it in other threads. I grew up with the Julian and Sandy sketches on Round the Horne - to me it brings back the smell of a Sunday roast slowly cooking in the oven.
I admit I can't see the whole picture.
My bad.
If he'd made racist comments it would always colour [ha] my opinion of him.
He made anti-gay comments and I will assume he is homophobic unless something he writes proves otherwise. And yes, that means taking him off Ignore and being adult enough not to snipe at him. I'm trying.