The Pope reprimands Catholic Nuns in U.S.
It will be interesting to follow...
NY Times
By LAURIE GOODSTEIN
Published: April 18, 2012
Vatican Reprimands a Group of U.S. Nuns and Plans Changes
The Vatican has appointed an American bishop to rein in
the largest and most influential group of Catholic nuns in the United States,
saying that an investigation found that the group had “serious doctrinal problems.”
The Vatican’s assessment, issued on Wednesday, said that members of the group,
the Leadership Conference of Women Religious, had challenged church teaching
on homosexuality and the male-only priesthood, and promoted
“radical feminist themes incompatible with the Catholic faith.”
The sisters were also reprimanded for making public statements that
“disagree with or challenge the bishops, who are the church’s authentic teachers of faith and morals.”
During the debate over the health care overhaul in 2010, American bishops
came out in opposition to the health plan, but dozens of sisters,
many of whom belong to the Leadership Conference, signed a statement supporting it
— support that provided crucial cover for the Obama administration in the battle over health care.
The conference is an umbrella organization of women’s religious communities,
and claims 1,500 members who represent 80 percent of the Catholic sisters in the United States.
It was formed in 1956 at the Vatican’s request, and answers to the Vatican,
said Sister Annmarie Sanders, the group’s communications director.
Word of the Vatican’s action took the group completely by surprise,
Sister Sanders said. She said that the group’s leaders were in Rome on Wednesday
for what they thought was a routine annual visit to the Vatican when they were
informed of the outcome of the investigation, which began in 2008.
The verdict on the nuns group was issued by the Vatican’s Congregation
for the Doctrine of the Faith, which is now led by an American, Cardinal William Levada,
formerly the archbishop of San Francisco. He appointed Archbishop J. Peter Sartain of Seattle
to lead the process of reforming the sisters’ conference, with assistance from
Bishop Thomas J. Paprocki and Bishop Leonard Blair, who was in charge of the investigation of the group.
They have been given up to five years to revise the group’s statutes,
approve of every speaker at the group’s public programs and replace a handbook
the group used to facilitate dialogue on matters that the Vatican said should be settled doctrine.
They are also supposed to review the Leadership Conference’s links with Network
and another organization, the Resource Center for Religious Life.
<snip>
Bad penguins, bad, bad penguins.
I bet they all weigh the same as a duck, too!
Yeah, how dare women try to think for themselves, or question male Bishop's authority.
Sandwich-time, sister!
Nuns don't kill faith, "bishops, who are the church’s authentic teachers of faith" kill faith.
Bad penguins, bad, bad penguins.
I bet they all weigh the same as a duck, too!
:lol: totally unintentional, I hadn't seen Sexybon's post when writing mine!
The Vatican’s assessment, issued on Wednesday, said that members of the group,
the Leadership Conference of Women Religious, had challenged church teaching
on homosexuality and the male-only priesthood, and promoted
“radical feminist themes incompatible with the Catholic faith.”
I am sooooo curious as to what the Vactican considers “radical feminist themes". I'm guessing wearing pants, having a career, and pretty much all that stuff that everyone else sorted out in the 20th century.
Sisters are doin' it for themselves! You go ladies.
in elementary school one nun was very gentle, one was mean, and the principal was an amazingly strong and intelligent and compassionate woman. My mom and I still talk about her.
One Nun was a racehorse
Tutu was one too
One Nun won one race
Tutu won one too!
I am sooooo curious as to what the Vactican considers “radical feminist themes".
I'm guessing wearing pants, having a career, and pretty much all that stuff
that everyone else sorted out in the 20th century.
I'm not Catholic, so this event is not really my concern. But during my career I had
about 5 years working with a particular Order of sisters in Oregon, Mississippi, and Quebec.
It took the first year to develop a trust between us, but eventually I came to appreciate
and truly enjoy and admire who these women were, and what they were doing with their lives.
I posted this news item because I anticipate this will be a momentous event for the Catholic Church in the US.
The role of women in the Church has taken a serious hit since the Pope declared
that women could not become priests, and were destined to play a secondary role in the Church.
This single decision essentially strangled the number of young women in North America
deciding to become nuns, and many, many women left their traditional roles as nuns.
Link
Sisters. 180,000 sisters were the backbone of the Catholic education and health systems in 1965.
In 2002, there were 75,000 sisters, with an average age of 68.
By 2020, the number of sisters will drop to 40,000
--and of these, only 21,000 will be aged 70 or under.
In 1965, 104,000 sisters were teaching, while in 2002 there were only 8,200 teachers
.
The question may turn out to be, will there be any sisters left in the North American Church after this reprimand from this Pope.
The dark ages called, they want their religion back.
The dark ages called, they want their religion back.
Awesome.
The Vatican Owns America. FYI.. maybe IBRAM should think about trying to get a job as a nun..
LOLs, she should do it, just for the giggles.
JBK - you really are being a dick. Intentional or not.
Sister Simone Campbell touches on a lot of the Churches' problems in this short interview. The anti-Vatican II leadership, reactionary politics over gospel teachings, disparagement of women... it goes on. I wouldn't be too concerned about Klydes imaginings, the Church has enough real problems that the faithful need to face.
Ibs can be a Sister of Perpetual Indulgence.
Derek Jarman is one of their saints.
Perpetual? You think it could be habit forming?
Aren't you already on report?
I think the problems all stem from letting them have their own names and wear civilian clothes.
Let's face it. There are no surprises in the Catholic Church in terms of roles. There is no great likelihood that either female or married priests will be part of the program.
Pope Benny is rolling back Vatican II changes.
The Holy Roman and Apostolic Church is not about innovation.
Why is anyone surprised by that?
I think many people of our generation grew up in a changeable hippie Mass kind of church where the Voldemort Catechism was less referenced and people gave a shit about doing good by their neighbor. That is dead now but these ladies committed to it before it was eliminated. It is sad that they don't just form their own Church but the fuckers in the pointy hats own all the property so they'd be part of the homeless problem they try to address.
It is sad that they don't just form their own Church but the fuckers in the pointy hats own all the property so they'd be part of the homeless problem they try to address.
Hmm, I wonder? How much support would they get from a community that's fed up with the way the catholic church has turned Santorumy.
And if the pointy hats had to hire replacements, even at minimum wage with no health insurance, it would be a major nut. Hmm
Dominique, nique, nique, over the land he plods, And sings a little song, Never asking for reward...
[YOUTUBE]bZbWw1XlXyM[/YOUTUBE]
Hmm, I wonder? How much support would they get from a community that's fed up with the way the catholic church has turned Santorumy.
And if the pointy hats had to hire replacements, even at minimum wage with no health insurance, it would be a major nut. Hmm
Dominique, nique, nique, over the land he plods, And sings a little song, Never asking for reward...
I was surprised by the reaction of another Catholic school parent who is very connected to the Church. She wants the nuns to fight this by all possible means. I had assumed that most of us who support the nuns had already left the Church, but there are obviously some left willing to fight it out. There would be support for the Orders both inside and outside the Church, but a retirement bomb is about to go off as well. I think changing the Church is a lost cause, but I wish them well in the effort. I feel like the Church can do good in the world when their approach aligns with the nuns but not when overtly political bishops call the shots. When I left, I considered looking into a liberal Episcopalian parish but what I find I miss is the connections inside my rural community, not religion. These nuns represent connectedness to me. The bishops represent totalitarianism.
My observation/conversations with a lot of catholics, leads me to think most catholic's important connection with the Church is the nuns. They know the parish priest but he's on a pedestal/soapbox, a higher plane with the pointy hats. The nuns, although some were teacher-terrorists, are more approachable and a lot of people have told me nuns evoke fond memories/feelings.
But never being Catholic, this is hearsay.
But never being Catholic, this is heresy.
But but but... This is SPARTA!
First, let me say I am not anti-Catholic.
I have credentials of working directly with/for the Church,
and with good conscience I can utter that famous
... "Some of my best friends are ..."
But when a church takes on political activities, I can not be any more
tolerant of that church than I would of any political body.
I find the following thrust of the Catholic hierarchy to be political,
and therefore subject to political debate.
Washington Post
Michelle Boorstein,
July 11, 2012
Arlington Diocese parishioners question need for fidelity oath
Last month, [Kathleen] Riley joined at least four other Sunday school teachers
and resigned from her post at St. Ann’s parish after a letter arrived at her home requiring her
— and all teachers in the Arlington Catholic Diocese
— to submit “of will and intellect” to all of the teachings of church leaders.<snip>
The Arlington “profession of faith” asks teachers to commit to “believe everything”
the bishops characterize as divinely revealed, and Arlington’s top doctrine official said
[COLOR="DarkRed"]it would include things like the bishops’ recent campaign
against a White House mandate that most employers offer contraception coverage[/COLOR].
Critics consider the mandate a violation of religious freedom.<snip>
But for some, particularly more liberal Catholics, the oaths are an alarming effort
to stamp out debate in the church at a time when it is bleeding members and clergy in the West.
They note that church leaders’ views have changed over the centuries on various subjects,
including contraception.
“I’m just shocked, I can’t believe they’re asking me to sign this,” said Riley,
who said she may keep her own children out of the parish education program in the fall.
“The bishops are human, and sometimes their judgment is not God’s judgment.
We always have to be vigilant about that.
The Holy Spirit gives us the responsibility to look into our own consciences.”
<snip>
The Rev. Ronald Nuzzi, who heads the leadership program for Catholic educators
at the University of Notre Dame, said many bishops “are in a pickle.”
They want Catholic institutions to be staffed by people who not only teach
what the church teaches but whose “whole life will bear witness.”
Nuzzi said he keeps a photo on his desk from the 1940s that shows
all the German bishops in their garb, doing the Nazi salute.
“I keep it there to remind people who say to do everything the church says,
that their wisdom has limitations, too.”
To wit:
I think its clear that the Church is committed to a purge. I've severed my ties but if you're still in it to win it, check out
Spiritus Christi in Rochester as a model for change.
Back in the day (and by "the day" I mean as recently as the 1980s), the only credentialling requirement for teachers in the Catholic schools was a letter from their parish priest attesting to the fact that they were a Catholic in good standing with the church.
St. Ann's in the article is right in my neighborhood. Over the last 15 years, I've pruned their trees that have branches sticking out over the sidewalk. Fuckers just let them grow and block the sidewalk. I used to occasionally stick the bypass pruners in the basket of our baby stroller, so when we were walking past, I could just pull them out and cut branches off their trees and drop them in their parking lot. Somebody else is doing it too, but they just snap the branches and let them dangle. These days, when I notice the branches are getting out of control, I'll just walk home and get the pruners and come back to work on the trees.
Also, if you happen to be going by at 5:25 on a Saturday afternoon, be careful. Those Catholics come zooming in at the last minute and they are almost late, so they aren't so careful about pedestrians. Nobody gets hurt, but it's a little annoying.
I don't totally hate St. Ann's. I know a couple families who go there and they are really good friends. Good people. You would like them. Wonder what they think of these loyalty oaths.
Oh, one last thing about St. Ann's. They had this old run down house on their property that they used for AA meetings and stuff. They decided to remove the building, so they let the fire department spend a couple days setting it on fire and practice putting it out. That was fun to watch.
I wouldn't expect their care-taking to get better as their numbers decrease. There is an assumption that the people who stay with the Church will be the "better" Catholics more engaged better tithers etc... but I don't buy it completely. The choirs I remember were full of Vatican II types the CCD teachers a mixed lot the folks that showed up to work festivals were mixed some just neighbors not Catholics. A lot of the work that got done at our Church was just in the name of community not religion. I think the Bishops have so many yes men around them that they think the core of the Church are hard right true believers. We talked about leaving the Church a long time before we did it. The final straw was Lil' Griff's Confirmation. The Bishop decided it was time for a full-fledged wide ranging Cellar style abortion/small family rant instead of a coming of age conversation. I finally realized how unwelcome I was in a parish that was founded by my own Great great grandfather.
Also, if you happen to be going by at 5:25 on a Saturday afternoon, be careful. Those Catholics come zooming in at the last minute and they are almost late, so they aren't so careful about pedestrians. Nobody gets hurt, but it's a little annoying.
Same round here, children being dropped off late at St Louis school. Residential area (the convent and school were there first), narrow roads, parked cars and - obviously! - children about.
The cars take the sharp turn up the school drive at what I guess is nearly 40mph, without indicating and sometimes even talking on their mobile phones. And they have the temerity to have Child On Board signs in their cars?!
I'm not claiming it's a Catholic thing though. My C of E school comes with similar parents, to the extent we had to have a PSCO (police community support officer) outside of the school for a week, issuing tickets to dissuade people from dangerous driving/ parking/ abandoning their cars where they fancied. The driving changed temporarily, but bad habits are creeping back...
It is a Catholic thing.
The idea is that you have Holy Days of Obligation. You are obligated to make an appearance. But you aren't obligated to stick around afterwards for coffee hour. So they zoom in at the last minute, and roar out as soon as it's over. I know, I used to be one.
It is a Catholic thing.
The idea is that you have Holy Days of Obligation. You are obligated to make an appearance. But you aren't obligated to stick around afterwards for coffee hour. So they zoom in at the last minute, and roar out as soon as it's over. I know, I used to be one.
I used to be one, too.
Then I woke up.
Pope Shnope. Fuck em all.
It is a Catholic thing.
The idea is that you have Holy Days of Obligation. You are obligated to make an appearance. But you aren't obligated to stick around afterwards for coffee hour. So they zoom in at the last minute, and roar out as soon as it's over. I know, I used to be one.
You're a Lutheran, aren't you. Lutherans have coffee hour. Catholics have breakfast a a diner, since they've had to starve themselves for at least an hour before mass started so they can take Communion (It's like swimming). So, actually, they are rushing out to be first in line.
I actually had a short frank talk with Dad about this a few minutes ago. The regular priest was out yesterday and the replacement from the diocese gave them a talk on the evils of cafeteria Catholicism.
Ibs can be a Sister of Perpetual Indulgence.
Derek Jarman is one of their saints.
Apparently Methodists and Lutheran in Lake Wobegon, MN don't have all these problems. Maybe Cardinals should spend more time listening to "A Prairie Home Companion" every weekend for better ideas. Just think. It might even inspire a Vatican III.
Ibs can be a Sister of Perpetual Indulgence.
Derek Jarman is one of their saints.
They were featured at the Rat City Rollergirls bout last month:
The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, Abbey of St. Joan are selling special roller derby-themed CHAMPIONSHIP BINGO cards, and all of our fans are invited to play for a chance to win awesome prizes. Look for the Sisters’ table on the KeyArena concourse to buy a bingo card, or an autographed Anya Heels poster! All proceeds from bingo and poster sales go to help Lambert House. Then, catch the sisters after the game performing at The Funhouse!
[ATTACH]39827[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH]39828[/ATTACH]
... with holy fire in their eyes
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Here's a NY Times with a bit of history and an update.
The women of the 60's are now grey-haired, but still on the move[COLOR="Silver"]ment[/COLOR].
Nice voice! Will these old nuns outlive Rome?
Possibly the pope will learn why you shouldn't piss off the people that choose whether or not to starch your underwear. :eyebrow:
Sister Sherman fights back.
When Kathy Sherman was in college during the final years of the Vietnam War, she played the guitar with friends in her dorm room and sang folk and protest songs over bowls of popcorn. They sang Peter, Paul and Mary and Joan Baez, and some friends said her voice reminded them of Judy Collins.
Ms. Sherman graduated and joined an order of Roman Catholic nuns, the Sisters of St. Joseph of La Grange, but she never stopped making music. Last spring, when the Vatican issued a harsh assessment of the group representing a majority of American nuns accusing them of “serious doctrinal problems,” Sister Sherman, 60, said she responded the way she always does when she feels something deeply. She wrote a song.
[YOUTUBE]_OzLhTV6pkQ[/YOUTUBE]
somewhat off topic...
The Pope now has a twitter handle @pontifex.
The move is aimed at drawing in the Roman Catholic Church’s 1.2 billion followers, especially young people. “The pope’s presence on Twitter can be seen as the ‘tip of the iceberg’ that is the church’s presence in the world of new media,” the Vatican said in a statement.
Just do not expect the pope to start following you on Twitter or retweeting your posts, Greg Burke, a former Fox News correspondent in Rome who was named a Vatican communications adviser this year, said at a news conference. “He won’t follow anyone for now,” Mr. Burke added. “He will be followed.”
*chuckle*
Being the pope and all, you'd hope he was following someone!
It will be interesting to follow...
NY Times
By LAURIE GOODSTEIN
Published: April 18, 2012
Vatican Reprimands a Group of U.S. Nuns and Plans Changes
Another WOW !
I'm not a member of the Catholic Church.
But I do think it's important to follow the politics of this Church
because it affects the politics of so many countries.
Today, there are announments of the new Pope that are truly important...
NY Times
By JIM YARDLEY and JASON HOROWITZ
Published: December 16, 2013
Pope Replaces Conservative U.S. Cardinal on Influential Vatican Committee
ROME — Pope Francis moved on Monday against a conservative American cardinal
who has been an outspoken critic of abortion and same-sex marriage,
by replacing him on a powerful Vatican committee with another American
who is less identified with the culture wars within the Roman Catholic Church. <snip>
To replace Cardinal Burke, Francis chose Cardinal Donald Wuerl of Washington,
an ideological moderate with a deep knowledge of the Vatican but also with pastoral experience.
Father Reese noted that Cardinal Burke had been a leader of American bishops
arguing that Catholic politicians who support abortion rights should be barred from receiving communion,
while Cardinal Wuerl had taken an opposite tack.<snip>
The pope also removed Cardinal Justin Rigali, the former archbishop of Philadelphia,
from the Congregation for Bishops. From his committee post, Cardinal Rigali has long been
a crucial player in shaping the American hierarchy. He stepped down as archbishop
of Philadelphia amid a scandal over his handling of priest abuse cases there. <snip>
Some recent appointments have disheartened liberals within the church,
particularly the pope’s choice in October [COLOR="DarkRed"]to approve the Rev. Leonard Blair as the archbishop of Hartford.
He was central in a doctrinal investigation that reprimanded a group of American nuns
who were deemed to have drifted from church teaching. [/COLOR]<snip>
Since his election as pope in March, Francis has received glowing news media coverage
and widespread adulation from the faithful for putting a kinder, more inclusive face
on a global institution that had been widely perceived as out of touch.
He has expressed an intention to reorganize and overhaul the Roman Curia,
the bureaucracy that governs the church.
My executive summary of that quoted text:
Two steps forward, one step back. Could be worse.
The older I get, the more annoyed I get with organised religion.
Then again, perhaps it's just that the older I get, the more annoyed I get.
It's probably a good thing that I am slated to die young, otherwise I'd self combust by the time I reached 60.
Sounds like he knows how the game is played, and is willing to leave his ivory tower to get down and dirty. Don't fuck with the bouncer. :haha:
By coincidence or design, another anniversary for
my posting
This year the situation is much better....
Vatican Report Cites Achievements and Challenges of U.S. Nuns
NY Times
LAURIE GOODSTEIN
DEC. 16, 2014
A Vatican investigation of American nuns started under the previous pope,
which prompted protests from outraged Catholics, ended in Rome on Tuesday
with the release of a generally appreciative report that acknowledged
the achievements and the challenges the nuns face given their dwindling ranks.
The relatively warm tone in the report, and at the Vatican news conference that released it,
was a far cry from six years ago when the investigation was announced,
creating fear, anger and mistrust among women in religious communities
and convents across the United States.
<snip>
[COLOR="Red"]Cardinal Rodé was replaced as head of the Vatican’s office on religious orders,
and the report was finished in 2012 under Cardinal João Braz de Aviz,
who said he wanted to “rebuild trust” with the nuns,
Francis, who was elected last year, has said repeatedly that he wants
to create more opportunities for women to have decision-making roles in the Vatican, and in church leadership.[/COLOR]
An apropos joke:
A guy from the Bronx has a wild, sex and booze fueled debauched weekend. Monday morning he goes to his parish priest, Father Mazzanotti, and makes a confession to assuage his guilt. Needless to say the priest is wholly (haha) taken aback and prescribes a severe penance including daily mass, fasting, stations of the cross, charity work, novenas, the whole megillah. (haha again)
On his way to work the guy is beside himself at the enormity of his penance, figuring it will take weeks and all of his vacation time. He gets off the subway on the lower east side and decides to stop into a church near his work and get a second opinion.
Father Ruiz is hearing confessions that morning and the man goes in and confesses the same sins including a few more from the weekend that he remembered on the train ride. Father Ruiz listens and says, "God is forgiving, my son. Ligth a candle, say two Hail Marys and an Our Father, and put five bucks in the poor box."
The guy is flabbergasted and says to Father Ruiz "I confessed those same sins to my parish priest and he gave me this enormous penance: daily mass, fasting, stations of the cross, charity work, novenas, the whole megillah." "Why the difference?"
Father Ruiz says to him "Ahhh, what do they know about fancy fucking in the Bronx?"
And no, neither the nun nor anyone else fainted.
Pope lambasts the Curia. Not one Cellar moderate has a comment? Is this board slowly conceding to its extremists? Do moderates now fear to discuss issues because extremists will make discussion nasty?
I just hope he has the stamina, chutzpah, and determination,
along with the appropriate number of food-tasters, tactical vests,
and Uguisu-Bari floors to see his philosophy thru to completion.
Not one Cellar moderate has a comment? Is this board slowly conceding to its extremists? Do moderates now fear to discuss issues because extremists will make discussion nasty?
Almost all the moderates were chased away by asshat extremists like yourself.
Some of us no longer care to discuss these issues as they create such animosity elsewhere on the board.
However, watching/reading you get your ass handed to you repeatedly by noboxes has been quite entertaining. :p:
I just hope he has the stamina, chutzpah, and determination, along with the appropriate number of food-tasters, tactical vests, and Uguisu-Bari floors to see his philosophy thru to completion.
So what is that philosophy? Have battle lines formed? This Pope clearly defined an enemy. But who in the Curia are examples of that enemy?
I suspect Jesuits have sided with the Pope. But even that is speculation. Are, for example, Dominicans lining up against him? Have Fransicans taken a stand. Or do potential battle lines form along different parameters such as Italians verses non-Italians?
Was his speech before the Curia a declaraion of war? Or will his reform remain as non-existant as it has been so far? Is he simply blowing hot air before an entrenched. too powerful, and self gratifying Curia?
Is there anything worthy of being called a fact? Nasty poster need not post again since, as usual, he has nothing useful to contribute - only cheapshot attacks. I do not see anything that even says why a previous Pope resigned. Does anyone has any indication of what is going on; of what this Pope's strategy really is? Has a underground war broken out? Or is this talk of reform only smoke?
Is there anything worthy of being called a fact? <snip>
I suspect that until a few years pass we will not
know anything certain. But for now,
your questions have the flavor of those who challenge Presidential actions by Obama.
Some only see a black man as President and can't abide it,
while others see a list of his decisions for the US government
as the important initial changes that are/will be beneficial to American society.
Regarding the Pope, I think 2 of my previously postings speak closely to your questions:
loc. cit.
#45
loc. cit.
#49I just hope he has the stamina, chutzpah, and determination,
along with the appropriate number of food-tasters, tactical vests,
and Uguisu-Bari floors to see his philosophy thru to completion.
Uguisu-Bari floors? Do you think Big Frankie will take the Cards to the mattresses? :eek:
Regarding the Pope, I think 2 of my previously postings speak closely to your questions:
One promotion implied reform. Another implied status quo. The removal of Cardinal Justin Rigali is simply a response to a Philadelphia Archdiocese that all but protected pedophilia. Even the most conservative Pope would have / should have removed that Cardinal. And should have been followed with majore Archdiocese house cleaning - that as best I can tell did not happen.
Evidence concerning actual reform is vague. Plenty of talk with little obvious action. Apparently the Church needs another butler to leak memos. Since that forces action.
TW: I have no strong ideas about how Pope Francis is going to succeed.
Demoting bishops and cardinals who speak out against him is only a tactic, not a strategy.
But one indicator for the future may well be to follow the future of Seattle Archbishop J. Peter Sartain.
On one hand, he has been given “directorship” of the Leadership Council of Women Religious (LCWR)
which represents about 80 percent of America’s 57,000 nuns. And so far, it appears the Pope and
the Archbishop are favorably disposed towards the stated mission of the LCWR.
On the other hand, watching what happens with Seattle's Cardinal Gerard Muller may also be an indicator
… if this outspoken Cardinal is demoted or in other ways loses power, I would view that as a sign the Pope is succeeding.
Archbishop Sartain is also a good indicator regarding opening the church’s records about the whole pedophile mess.
Seratain will "decide" an important response regarding a particular cleric in the Seattle area,
where a retired judge and a District Attorney have “requested / demanded”
the records on that case held by the Church’s Review Board.
On the other hand, watching what happens with Seattle's Cardinal Gerard Muller may also be an indicator
… if this outspoken Cardinal is demoted or in other ways loses power, I would view that as a sign the Pope is succeeding.
Devil is in those details.
Another interesting event was couples testifying before top Church leadership on their sex lives and why sex (not for reproduction) is so critically important to a strong marriage. I suspect this was, to bishops and Cardinals, equivalent to a topless strip club visit. Bishops and Cardinals should be teaching sex 'not for reproduction' (and birth control) as essential to being a good Catholic. Maybe they could start by reading an old book, "The Joy of Sex".
What previous Pope tried to introduce church management to the 20th Century? Those 16th Century leaders have little grasp of the 21st Century. They even and suddenly discovered pedophilia is evil.
This Pope may have forced demented Church leadership to learn what was common knolwledge in the roaring 20s. So yes, this Pope may be doing some things to reform his church. But we still do not see big actions. We only see bits and pieces - details.
Who really is in control? The Pope or the Curia? An answer only possible by learning details - such as were leaked by the Pope's Butler. After the Pope's pre-Christmas speech, some expected to learn by how the Curia responded. Apparently secrecy to protect evil is still SNAFU.
Seratain will "decide" an important response regarding a particular cleric in the Seattle area, where a retired judge and a District Attorney have “requested / demanded” the records on that case held by the Church’s Review Board.
That should have occurred in every juridiction all over the world decades ago. Described is nothing new. Lynn Abraham in Philadelphia did that almost 15 years ago. And still extremists in the PA Legislature refuse to reform State laws to prosecute pedophiles and those who protect pedophiles. A problem that still exists in most states in this nation.
Seratain may only be doing what every bishop and Cardinal should have been force by state and Federal laws to do decades ago. We know the Church openly protected pedophiles in so many nations including the most Catholic nations of Ireland and Spain.
So what was Monty Python saying? Nobody (still) expects the Spanish Inquisition ... that would actually attack evil. Where is Cardinal Fang when we need him to institute reform using a Fluffy Cushion? Is that also being done behind the scenes?
Uguisu-Bari floors? Do you think Big Frankie will take the Cards to the mattresses? :eek:
... at least he would hear them coming. :ninja:
[COLOR="White"]I apologize... the devil made me do it.[/COLOR]
Uguisu-Bari floors? Do you think Big Frankie will take the Cards to the mattresses? :eek:
Hot monkey love? Not likely to get reckless in words and deeds like a monkey in a tropical forest.
Likud so hated peace (the Oslo Accords) as to call for and got the assassination of Rabin. Same may be Pope Francis' risk as (if) a war becomes public. From Crux, a Catholic publication, on 3 Jan 2015
Catholic liberals in Italy launch petition to back Pope Francis
Pointedly called "Stop the Attacks on Pope Francis", the petition was launched on Christmas Day by groups including "We are Church", "Blessed are the Peacemakers", the Edith Stein Study Center, an Italian association of theologians, and a variety of base communities. All are generally associated with the liberal wing of the Italian Church.
The petition is also signed by the Rev. Luigi Ciotti of Turin, one of Italy's best known anti-Mafia priests, and the Rev. Alex Zanotelli, a Combonian missionary priest and a well-known social activist. ...
According to the petition, which was launched the day after the essay appeared, Messori's critique was a "true declaration of war" and expressed the leading edge of a deeply entrenched anti-Francis backlash.
"The arrival of Francis has provoked frantic reactions with the Vatican Curia, which, decimated by scandals and corruption, considers the pope a foreign body in its systems of alliances with worldly power, fueled by two perverse instruments: money and sex", the petition asserts.
"At first the chatter about a "strange pope" began quietly, but then it became steadily louder and clearer", the petition asserts. ...
Among other things, the petition cites a book issued shortly before last October's Synod of Bishops on the family, in which five cardinals - Gerhard Muller of Germany, the Vatican's doctrinal czar; American Raymond Burke [of St Louis], former head of the Vatican's supreme court; Walter Brandmuller of Germany, and Italians Carlo Caffara and Velasio De Paolis - came out against the idea of allowing divorced and civilly remarried Catholics to receive Communion.
Next month, Cardinal Burke (an extremist promoted by Pope Benedict) was removed from his top (some call ceremonial) position.
Justification for this war was apparent earlier. Voices of the Faithful called for the Church to respond to their parishioner’s expectations. VoF was created because the Church was all but endorsing pedophilia. VoF was, in essence, calling for a church "Magna Carta". So, in 2002, bishops in Oregon, Maine, Camden NJ, Newark, N.J., and Long Island banned Voices of the Faithful from church properties after 25 parishioners in Wellesley MA had a meeting about widespread pedophilia in their Archdiocese. This over response demonstrated how entrenched and disenfranchised Church leadership has become.
Last December, Pope Francis cited 15 diseases that infect the Curia. That tongue lashing and the resulting overt anger is why many church organizations have rallied together. Their petition exposes an impending civil war as people are taking sides. Remaining question - when will knives come out.
Corruption in this church is so widespread that well over 100 pedophiles just from America are protected from justice in Vatican City. Who is protecting these pedophiles? Suspect the most conservative Cardinals in the Curia who avidly consider this doing god’s work.
... Remaining question - when will knives come out. ...
Ask
Christoph Graf.
<snip>
Justification for this war was apparent earlier. Voices of the Faithful called for the Church to respond to their parishioner’s expectations. VoF was created because the Church was all but endorsing pedophilia. VoF was, in essence, calling for a church "Magna Carta". So, in 2002, bishops in [COLOR="Red"]Oregon[/COLOR], Maine, Camden NJ, Newark, N.J., and Long Island banned Voices of the Faithful from church properties after 25 parishioners in Wellesley MA had a meeting about widespread pedophilia in their Archdiocese. This over response demonstrated how entrenched and disenfranchised Church leadership has become.
<snip>
It seems to me things are a bit more complicated, at least regarding Oregon's Archbishop John George Vlazny.
On one side, he came to Oregon in 1997, and by 2004 had settled a number of sexual abuse within the Archdiocese.
To wit he announced in 2007:
“For more than seven years the Archdiocese of Portland has been confronted with claims of child abuse by some of our priests, mostly between 1940 and 1986. By July 6, 2004, we had reached settlements with 140 victims. [COLOR="RoyalBlue"]But on that day we filed for Chapter 11 protection in federal bankruptcy court in order to be able to continue the mission of the church and make an honest effort to compensate all remaining victims as fairly as possible.[/COLOR] These have been difficult days for all of us and I am grateful to all our people who have continued to support the mission of the church and collaborate in the effort to resolve this crisis.”
On the other side, he vigorously opposed Oregon's law which provides for assisted suicide, and made his position very public:
During the 2004 presidential election, Vlazny said Catholic politicians who supported abortion rights, like Democratic nominee John Kerry, should refrain from receiving Communion.
Vlazny's position was very divisive among the Oregon Catholics and the general public.
Archbishop Vlazny resigned in January 2013, being succeeded by Bishop Alexander Sample.
Ask Christoph Graf.
That knife was in the hand of Pope Francis.
...
ask Dan AnrigThat knife was in the hand of Dan Anrig who committed professional suicide with it. That's why I referred tw to Christoph Graf, the likely successor. Reading between the lines you'll find that the Pope does believe in assisted suicide when it comes to careers.
Resolution ... :cheerldr:
Pope Francis to Cardiinal Levada: :eyebrow: Don't mess with the Sisters !
Vatican Ends Battle With U.S. Catholic Nuns’ Group
NY Times = LAURIE GOODSTEIN = APRIL 16, 2015
The Vatican has abruptly ended its takeover of the main leadership group of American nuns
two years earlier than expected, allowing Pope Francis to put to rest a confrontation started by
his predecessor that created an uproar among American Catholics who had rallied to the sisters’ defense.
...
Ending the standoff with the nuns is one of several course corrections that Francis has set in motion.
He has also worked on reforming the Vatican Curia, the Vatican’s central administration,
instituting tighter oversight of Vatican finances, and has created a commission
to deal with sexual abuse by clergy members.
...
On Thursday, that included calling an unexpected meeting with four of the leaders
of the Leadership Conference. The four women were photographed in his office and
said afterward in a statement that they were “deeply heartened” by Francis’
“expression of appreciation” for the lives and ministry of Catholic sisters.
“He met with them himself for almost an hour, and that’s an extravagant amount of papal time,”
said Eileen Burke-Sullivan, a theologian and consultant for women’s religious orders and
vice provost for mission and ministry at Creighton University, a Jesuit school in Omaha.
“It’s about as close to an apology, I would think, as the Catholic Church is officially going to render.”
[YOUTUBE]_OzLhTV6pkQ[/YOUTUBE]