gains of giving up

...

a very depressing shorter period, leading to a very brutal separation, followed by a rageful month of mutual exchange of legal threats, excessive anger and humiliations

She sounds delightful! What's not to like?

They say that each and every one of us has the perfect soul mate somewhere in the world. Of course they say it because it's sentimental treacle, but if it was the case, this broad was so not yours.

I forget if we got this part of the story, but where's the biological dad of the boy? Does she have any relationship with that guy?

Undertoad;793984 wrote:

She sounds delightful! What's not to like?

They say that each and every one of us has the perfect soul mate somewhere in the world. Of course they say it because it's sentimental treacle, but if it was the case, this broad was so not yours.

why not?
[COLOR="Red"]edit: i should add that i am not trying to argue as much as understand, since any reason to think she is not the one for me would be freaking awesome in helping me give up on her.[/COLOR]

the way i see it, i could have avoided most of the destructive cycles within that depressing period if i had the wisdom at the time, which i could have gained easily if it was a normal relationship without an unfinished immigration process, where one could, if needs be, get some breathing space to clear the head, whether its the occasional weekend camping trip, or if needs be - moving out for awhile. but not having my own financial independence due to the slow immigration process left me without those.

as for the brutality of the end - we are both 'means justify the ends' sort of people, whether its love, anger or practical goals, its always being a common ground. and in the rageful month that followed - she did most but not all of the threatening and i've done most but not all of the humiliating.

so.. yes, we both suck as people :p

Undertoad;793984 wrote:

I forget if we got this part of the story, but where's the biological dad of the boy? Does she have any relationship with that guy?

the story is that he left her midst pregnancy, changing his mind when it was too late.
ofcourse i can't really know what else happened there other then what she told me.
there was no contact with him since.

I got yer back dude, we are going to figure this out.

the story is that he left her midst pregnancy, changing his mind when it was too late.
ofcourse i can't really know what else happened there other then what she told me.
there was no contact with him since.

There is no "too late" for the kid to have a relationship with a real father.

She didn't maintain contact with the guy looking for child support? You didn't mention that she's independently wealthy or something.

Really bad signs here. What we have so far is she's making selfish decisions that will hurt her son, and having a series of relationships that she terminates abruptly, affecting her son.

Good job not getting her knocked up again... seriously, bullet fucking dodged. Can you imagine what it would be like to be a biodad at this point? Apparently it wouldn't have made a difference to her, and she would have cast you to the winds anyway.

Your soul mate will not be doing drunken handstands wooing guys, asking to see their dick, while still in a relationship, all while having a 3-year-old in tow.

Your soul mate will not assign you tests to pass in order to qualify for her attention, because that is not the stuff of a healthy, loving relationship.

Where's her dad? What's he like?

UT is a wise man.

traceur;793982 wrote:

and she's right: ... in the sense that the only way she could ever fall for me again is me being myself, no appeals, not trying to get her to do anything, no extensive cautiousness of 'making the wrong move', no extensive work on a relationship, just me being myself with her. ...

Mmmmm hmmmm,

"She won't respect him, 'cause you can't respect somebody who kisses your ass. It just doesn't work." - [FONT="Comic Sans MS"]Ferris Bueller[/FONT]

Undertoad;794029 wrote:

I got yer back dude, we are going to figure this out.

There is no "too late" for the kid to have a relationship with a real father.

She didn't maintain contact with the guy looking for child support? You didn't mention that she's independently wealthy or something.

Really bad signs here. What we have so far is she's making selfish decisions that will hurt her son, and having a series of relationships that she terminates abruptly, affecting her son.

Good job not getting her knocked up again... seriously, bullet fucking dodged. Can you imagine what it would be like to be a biodad at this point? Apparently it wouldn't have made a difference to her, and she would have cast you to the winds anyway.

Your soul mate will not be doing drunken handstands wooing guys, asking to see their dick, while still in a relationship, all while having a 3-year-old in tow.

Your soul mate will not assign you tests to pass in order to qualify for her attention, because that is not the stuff of a healthy, loving relationship.

Where's her dad? What's he like?

infinite monkey;794032 wrote:

UT is a wise man.

Nuff said.

Undertoad;794029 wrote:

There is no "too late" for the kid to have a relationship with a real father.

She didn't maintain contact with the guy looking for child support? You didn't mention that she's independently wealthy or something.

she didn't have to - specifically because she wasn't wealthy - the moment things got bad enough so she had to go on welfare (shortly after the pregnancy), canada welfare brought the guy to court for her. even after she no longer needed welfare, the transaction is done through them - just the bare legal minimum (which is 150$ a month). she had to testify in his trial, but their was no contact between them other then that.

Undertoad;794029 wrote:

Really bad signs here. What we have so far is she's making selfish decisions that will hurt her son, and having a series of relationships that she terminates abruptly, affecting her son.

since the biological father left from his own volition, and since she didn't have anyone in the child's life for the 3 years after (the one that was with her when i met her was an online relationship that never evolved into RL), there's not much of a series - just me. so far a one time event.

Undertoad;794029 wrote:

Where's her dad? What's he like?

her biological father? aloof and lazy, met him once in Christmas, but not much of a relationship with her at all. her various step fathers, i think it was like 4 or 5, have each lost all contact with her when they left her mother.

Undertoad;794029 wrote:

Your soul mate will not assign you tests to pass in order to qualify for her attention, because that is not the stuff of a healthy, loving relationship.

it isn't? i mean isn't that sort of integral to how people choose partners? its sort of difficult for me to get romantically attached to... anyone, so for my last 27 years, she's being my only serious relationship, so i am not being sarcastic... am i being naive to accept that constant judgement as a norm? what's the alternative?

The alternative is broad acceptance of who the other person is. No relationship is pefect all the time. And both will be pissed off sometimes by the other person. But if either party is feeling constantly judged then there is something seriously amiss.

Your partner should be the person you can totally be yourself with without fear of judgement. That's not to say the other will never judge something you do, or consider you to be in the wrong on something...but you really shouldn't be feeling judged and tested at some fundamental level all the time.

Really, Trace, it's no way to live honey. Your partner should be your rock, not the one chipping away at your self esteem (unwittingly, I daresay).

You need some low stakes fun, mate. You need a little female company that isn't so fraught. Walking on eggshells is a shitty way to live. For whatever reason, be it the financial situation you found yourselves in, the whole thing with immigration, or a simple shift in priorities that took you on different trajectories from each other, your relationship sounds like, at least for the last year, it was characterised primarily by stress, tension and simmering resentments on both sides.

You got out from that pretty early on, all told. Some people play that game for years, decades even. Waiting, hoping, working, fighting and then suddenly they're in their 30s or 40s and there's just nothing left except a shared weariness and impossibly entangled lives.

her biological father? aloof and lazy, met him once in Christmas, but not much of a relationship with her at all. her various step fathers, i think it was like 4 or 5, have each lost all contact with her when they left her mother.

Very telling.

So it seems from mom, and from her own damaged childhood, she learned about how men are, and how men are to be treated.

You can't change this, she can only change it through counseling.

You are one of her step dads; and so when your relationship reached a certain point, it became uncomfortable to her, and she actively worked to destroy it. Whether she knew it or not.

She went into a long-term relationship with a man with immigration issues. Maybe that was part of it, even: the escape route clearly marked?

Now you sit there wondering WTF happened and how you could have behaved differently to make it work out. It may well be that the best intentions on your part led to a life too normal, too safe for her. Maybe she actually likes confusion in her life because that's what she grew up with. Even if it's unhealthy.

Maybe you work to pass all her tests and to be all the the things she said she wanted... and then it turns out she doesn't really know what she wants.

Maybe I'm partly just thinking out loud, but there it is, what say you?

Yeah and I'm with Dana, low stakes for a while.

Build your confidence. Bitches love confidence.

Undertoad;794097 wrote:

Build your confidence. Bitches love confidence.

True dat :p

Undertoad;794096 wrote:

Now you sit there wondering WTF happened and how you could have behaved differently to make it work out. It may well be that the best intentions on your part led to a life too normal, too safe for her. Maybe she actually likes confusion in her life because that's what she grew up with. Even if it's unhealthy.

Maybe you work to pass all her tests and to be all the the things she said she wanted... and then it turns out she doesn't really know what she wants.

Maybe I'm partly just thinking out loud, but there it is, what say you?

there is a lot i could have done differently, that given enough space i could have taken a breath to think about and have understood how to avoid each pitfall the way i understand it today in hindsight.

but there is one thing i couldn't have done - gain a peace of mind.

out of all the crap, there was one positive thought in my head on the flight back home, a sigh, a big boulder falling from my shoulders letting in air to areas that haven't breathed in a long time, "she's not here to judge me anymore" - to constantly test & reevaluate me".

and there was no solution, nothing i could have done to make that stop, because in a world where everything's a symbol, there is no sense of proportions - the biggest gesture is no more meaningful then the smallest, every bottle of soda bought, everything i've ever done for myself, no matter how small compared to what i do for them, was still failing a test of how much i am willing to sacrifice for her and my stepson. there would never be something so meaningful i could do to put all the others to rest, there would never be a test i can finally pass so that there would be no more tests.

there are people for whom this is perfect. the sort of really competitive people who constantly feel the need to prove themselves, who would like nothing more then a constant flow of opportunities to do so.

i never was that kind of guy, and as malleable as i am in other areas, i don't think i could ever change so fundamentally to become that kind of guy.

i would if i could, and even without it, given the opportunity to be with her and our son, i wouldn't care if i could never experience peace of mind again. but right now i don't have that choice, and she wouldn't want me to make that choice.

this is a great leap i think... because one of the constant things that have being nagging me is that thought that if we met today, if i had the experience from our first round and all the lessons, if we just met without the history between us the way we are today, we could have being happy together. and this is the one reason that i don't think anymore that this is necessarily true.

Undertoad;794097 wrote:

Yeah and I'm with Dana, low stakes for a while.

Build your confidence. Bitches love confidence.

the relationship did help me with that - if i got her i could get nearly anyone.

the problem is wanting anyone, and right now all i want is her. there's nothing i wouldn't give or endure for the 3 of us to be a family again.

traceur;794129 wrote:

the relationship did help me with that - if i got her i could get nearly anyone.

the problem is wanting anyone, and right now all i want is her. there's nothing i wouldn't give or endure for the 3 of us to be a family again.

You do know that what you're going through is just another part of the 'getting over someone' phase right? Most of us go through this after a period of time when we break up with someone.

I consider it to be similar to giving birth to be honest. You forget the real pain and only remember the good bits, even those associated with the event.

The difference between breaking up with someone and giving birth is that the other person isn't necessarily going to give you unconditional love for the rest of your life in return for the pain you've gone through.

edit: i should add that i am not trying to argue as much as understand, since any reason to think she is not the one for me would be freaking awesome in helping me give up on her.

Here's my cynical comment, take or leave as you wish.

You hope to understand women, grasshopper. Very well, I shall explain, but first, I want you to take this bowl of jelly and nail it to the ceiling. Once you have done that, you are ready to understand women.

All women are (from a male point of view) a little bit crazy. This one in particular seems to be a lot crazy. You can't understand crazy, it will never make sense.

Invent a story for yourself that fills YOUR psychological needs and is close enough to reality to be plausible. Then get on with life. My guess is that this is what she has been doing all along and is doing right now, but without admitting it to herself. This is what a LOT of people do.

traceur;794124 wrote:

there is a lot i could have done differently ...

No, I don't think so. You did the best you could with the knowledge and circumstances you had at the time.

traceur;794124 wrote:

... out of all the crap, there was one positive thought in my head on the flight back home, a sigh, a big boulder falling from my shoulders letting in air to areas that haven't breathed in a long time, "she's not here to judge me anymore" - to constantly test & reevaluate me".

and there was no solution, nothing i could have done to make that stop, because in a world where everything's a symbol, there is no sense of proportions - the biggest gesture is no more meaningful then the smallest, every bottle of soda bought, everything i've ever done for myself, no matter how small compared to what i do for them, was still failing a test of how much i am willing to sacrifice for her and my stepson. there would never be something so meaningful i could do to put all the others to rest, there would never be a test i can finally pass so that there would be no more tests.
....

This sounds like living hell. A good relationship is based on shared goals, mutual respect and clear communication. Where's the partnership in being constantly tested and re-evaluated? Sounds to me like you're well out of it.

Better to be single than under constant negative scrutiny.

^^^WSS^^^
I did that for 17 years - no thanks.

It's different for everybody, but... again I say, bullet dodged. After two years of that kind of living up to expectations, you wound up doing battle. Imagine it after 15 years. (that was my sentence)

It doesn't make you a better person after 15 years. It tears you down. It leaves you damaged and incomplete.

Now your brain is remembering the good parts and forgetting the bad parts, as our brains do.

I don't know you all that much, but I imagine you put women on a pedestal, and you wound up with a woman who demanded to be looked up to. Better to start on even ground, and have a pedestal available, so both of you can occasionally stand on it.

Can you imagine a partner who cherishes you? The way this one didn't? It's the greatest feeling in the world. Here's the good news. You are a good and decent person, you are desirable, and there will be women out there who will treat you better than she did and it will be awesome.

Good times start soon!

UT - get outta my head. The life parallels are scaring me.

traceur wrote:

i should add that i am not trying to argue as much as understand, since any reason to think she is not the one for me would be freaking awesome in helping me give up on her.

Try this exercise: imagine who you were 5 years ago. Really remember it. So much younger, such different goals in life, so much less experience, so much more immature, right?

Now understand, really believe, that in another 5 years, you will feel exactly the same way about who you are right now. It will take time to get past this unpleasant chapter in your life, no doubt, but a shorter time than you think. When you are 32, you will look back at who you are today and laugh, with just a hint of embarrassment. You cannot possibly imagine what life has in store for you in the future, just as the 22-year-old-you could never have predicted where you are today.

Wise words Ms Fobble of Clod

From The 40-year-old Virgin: you're putting the pussy on a pedestal! (about halfway in)

[YOUTUBE]FLAT9x0pjUc[/YOUTUBE]

This thread should be flagged for important insights that can save a lot of pain. Well done dwellars. Good luck traceur, you clearly have the capacity for a good relationship with an undamaged woman.

.

Although your life right now may not be the type of life you see and dream for yourself,
it is the only one you have at the present time.
You need to start appreciating and enjoying it while you work on improving it.

Griff;794497 wrote:

This thread should be flagged for important insights that can save a lot of pain. Well done dwellars. Good luck traceur, you clearly have the capacity for a good relationship with an undamaged woman.

honestly i think we where happy when there weren't a lot of problems surfacing up, in our honeymoon phase that lasted 18 months or so, and that's the "her" that i miss...

i mean... ok, this:


you see that smile? that's the smile right there! that's the her that i miss so much...

but when problems came up... we didn't really have the proper dynamics to deal with them, and at some point we tried so hard that dealing with them became our entire dynamic.

and i can't pull it off, i can't deal with someone where everything she does was because i drove her to it but with anything i did the circumstances and context doesn't matter. maybe one day my shoulders will be big enough to carry that load, maybe one day she'll mature and i won't have too, or we'll meet somewhere in the middle... but i am not there yet.

i miss the kid like hell though.

...the is so funny in retrospect...

why didn't anyone tell me the world is filled with wonderful non-narcissistic women? or was i not listening?

Hahahahaha. Not listening, I think.

Welcome back trace :)