Well, This is Going to be a Lousy Situation
Got a text from Selene tonight, asking me to run by the house. I've been staying at Tree Fae's place for the past few days at her request, so Selene could have some privacy with her boyfriend.
I walked in the front door, and everything that could not be reasonably described as belonging to me was gone.
Here's the note...
Patrick:
I'm gone. I have been planning this move for months - starting back when I gave Bridgid away. I knew I could not keep her in an apartment as it
wouldn't be fair to her. I'm glad she has found a good home with you and Leslie.
I have followed a plan that was developed by myself and my attorney for the past several months. There are some things you should be made aware
of:
1. All accounts with (our bank) have been shut down.
2. Clifton has moved as well.
3. Clifton and I have new cell phones so you can cancel our cell lines.
4. MOrtgage has not been paid since Sept.
5. Utilities have not been paid since Sept.
6. Luna is with me. Other animals are still with you.
7. Divorce papers are in the process.
None of this has been done with malice. I felt that you just wouldn't let me go. It is important to me that you understand that (her boyfriend)
came into this plan very late in the game. He is not the reason I have left and was a total surprise in my life.
I truly wish nothing but the best for you. Tell Leslie to take good care of you.
Donna
At least things were fair for the dog.
Wow "Spode that sure was a kick in the nads! :(
Are you ok Els? Did you expect this at all in any way? Do you have enough support to get through this without totally losing the plot?
My heart goes out to you. That's a real bitch of a thing to do and a cowards way of going about it if you ask me.
xxx
I am now singing soprano.
I have tons of support. The most difficult things are that I'm trying to come to grips with how I in any way deserved to be treated this way, and how it is going to get rammed up my ass legally.
Well, I guess it's time to go shopping for a lawyer by the sound of things.
Have you tried calling her? You must be so angry. :(
I can't afford a lawyer...no way.
I've tried calling and texting, but our son tells me that her lawyer advised her to have no contact with me until the divorce is final.
As the note states, she's been planning this for some time. She is smart, meticulous, and utterly ruthless when she is able to rationalize that it is okay to be so. She is the most competitive person I've ever met, and will NOT tolerate losing...will not tolerate anything but an utter scorched earth, no one left standing outcome in her favor.
She has reasons for this...I just wish I had a clue what they are.
Ouch.
Ouch for the split, and ouch for the secret surprise and the lack of confidence it implies.
I am slow to criticise anyone for how they handle a break-up. Even the telling by note etc might be reasonable under some circumstances, but leaving a bunch of unpaid bills which are now overdue is just unfair.
Man-hugs to you Els. I have a lot of trouble believing that you deserved ANY of that.
She [COLOR="Red"]C[/COLOR]an't [COLOR="red"]U[/COLOR]nderstand [COLOR="red"]N[/COLOR]ormal [COLOR="red"]T[/COLOR]hinking.:mad:
Check's in the mail.
sign the papers and sue her for 1/2 the unpaid bills ,
Leslie (TF) and I have long been planning to move in together. As I've said, Selene and my split is nothing new...it just never occurred to me that it might come down in this way. I figured we would part amicably, figure out the finances, and continue to be friends with a shared family.
Apparently not. So, tomorrow I"m moving my shit out of my house and down the two blocks to Leslie's. For those keeping score, my new address will be:
11412 E 78th Terrace
Raytown, MO 64138
I probably won't get a postal forward going for a few days yet as I need to deal with the physical ramifications of the move first. Her house was already full, and even though I don't have all that much crap, it is still going to be a major ordeal to combine our households.
BTW, all other details remain the same. If you have my phone # or email addys, they're all still good and will be.
I apologize for being absent from this community for so long. I've made so many good friends here, and I do in fact keep in touch with many of you outside of this forum.
I still have a lot to learn about what comprises Life, Loyalty and Gratitude...but I am grateful that I can come here and share...and vent...and weep.
This is horrible, elsp. I am so sorry for you!
I am sure you didn't deserve to be treated this way. No one does. Why all the duplicity and why, I am wondering, the attorney would advise this course of action.
I'd be calling her attorney, since she laid half the nefarious plan at his/her feet, I would be asking, a great big WTF!
Oh Els. How awful. I think Zen has hit the nail on the head - it's one thing to sneak away because she thinks you "just wouldn't let her go", but the unpaid bills are just mean and not, IMHO the actions of a person who "truly wishes nothing but the best for you".
You have my every best wish. Is Clifton your son? Has she taken him away too?
I'd be calling her attorney, since she laid half the nefarious plan at his/her feet, I would be asking, a great big WTF!
I am told that the attorney will be contacting me. Wonder if I'm to be sued for the fees as well?
You have my every best wish. Is Clifton your son? Has she taken him away too?
Clifton is my eldest stepson, who was living with us. He is 24, and of course must be supportive of his mother. If he wasn't, I'd smack him. By the same token, I doubt seriously if he wishes me any ill. I've already talked to his brother, our youngest stepson, who is livid over how this has been done, even though he understands her need to be apart from me.
Posting this because it is beautiful, truthful as only great music can be, and because it applies...to both Selene and myself.
[youtube]9xdlucQm0L0[/youtube]
It is probably worth noting that none of this is about another partner, really...but the concept of "running scared" certainly applies.
You must be in shock, Els.
After you get over the shock, you need to do what you can do to protect yourself. The unpaid bills thing is, as others have pointed out, just plain mean and stupid.
Sounds like Selene is acting out some Teenage Angsty Dream. I've seen this movie before. She may rue the day that she acted like such a bitch and garnered such bad karma for herself.
I've seen it - I've seen it many, many times. Hold your head up, Elspode.
More willl be revealed.
Oh ,'spode, im so sorry you and TF are going through this. I understand that it had to happen, but the way it was carried out was unnecessary.
I hope the financials sort themselves out, I can't see how she isn't liable for 50% of those bils?
Do you have a legal aid option over there? They say everyone is entitled to legal representation.
Hugs and supportive thoughts your way
xxx
Holy CRAP Patrick.
Just damn and WTF?
lolz at xoBruce
Wow! Elspode, I'm so sorry.
I never could wrap my mind around your arrangement, but it seemed to work for you both so well. You were both so open about what you were doing with other partners, and didn't hide anything. That's why this really shocks me. It's so incredibly malicious!
THe mortgage and untilities unpaid are the thing. Are you walking away from the house too and letting the bank reclaim it? Whose name are they in? I take it she was the one actually writing the checks or this would not have been news she had to share with you?
Really, WTF doesn't cover it. It's more like
[SIZE="7"][COLOR="Red"][FONT="Impact"]WHAT THE FUCKING FUCK?[/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE]
Ask Clodfobble. She'll know what to do.
Wow! Elspode, I'm so sorry.
I never could wrap my mind around your arrangement, but it seemed to work for you both so well. You were both so open about what you were doing with other partners, and didn't hide anything. That's why this really shocks me. It's so incredibly malicious!
My thoughts, exactly.
THe mortgage and untilities unpaid are the thing. Are you walking away from the house too and letting the bank reclaim it? Whose name are they in? I take it she was the one actually writing the checks or this would not have been news she had to share with you?
These are good questions.
I'm sorry for your pain man.
The other big question was the closing of all the joint bank accounts. Did she walk away with all the joint money and leave a few months of bills unpaid?
Over here it seems you can't close joint accounts without all signers present. How did she do that?
Ask Clodfobble. She'll know what to do.
Kick her in the cunt? Seriously, man, it's the whole money thing that really makes this not okay. I'm sorry for her immaturity, Els. I think if you make it a her-fault divorce, you can get free (although not necessarily very good) representation from the attorney general's office. But every state is different. Tell TreeFae to give you extra hugs from us.
that's just plain nasty.
sorry dude.
The who is at fault angle is why I'd be leery of leaving the house. At this point she's left you rather than an even split. I don't know squat about divorce law and it changes by state...
Don't lose that note. It could be an official admission of guilt.
Monster, yes, she handled all the finances. I just wrote her checks every week for my share of the bills and mortgage. I assume that the accounts, which did have my name on them, are still there, just empty. I'll be requesting statements for the past few months so I can get a better picture of what went on. But, I don't know...maybe one can close an account on one's own. Guess I'll know that in a while.
Oh, my dear ...
I suspected that this was what had happened when I saw your Facebook postings, but I didn't expect the scorched earth approach.
She has not, however, sewn salt into your fields (but not paying the mortage was pretty shitty).
You'll get through this.
We're here for you.
(*hugs*)
Els that's bloody awful treatment.
I felt like the ultimate bitch when I left my husband, but he came out of the relationship financially better off than he went in at least (small comfort, but all I could offer).
I can't believe someone who knows you and at least used to love you could treat you in this spiteful and underhanded way.
People fall out of love, have to leave, stop trying - that's life and it doesn't make them villains. But the way she did it - especially involving the money - is plain nasty. Karma will smack her upside the head.
Okay, I don't really believe that, but it's a nice thought.
We'll send Ducks over with a brick to do the same job.
Oh, Els! That ain't no way to go. As others have commented, that was incredibly malicious to close the bank accounts and not pay the bills since September. No wonder she fled in the middle of the night, so to speak. Happy Thanksgiving and Merry Christmas - NOT! What a biatch!
So sorry this had to happen to you. :(
You should be able to apply for financial provision? and as part of your rights, you should be able to get that money back.
It seems like it would be illegal to accept money for maintenance payments and take the money instead. At the least it's irresponsible and at the worst it's fraud and I would be seeking to get every cent back, plus the other amounts that should have gone toward maintenance of the house and utilities. There should be emergency legal aid to help with this. :(
*Shakes head* sorry you're going through the mill Els.
Shocking bad way to go about it. What a fucking craven move. Can't get my head around that sort of behaviour.
Hang on though...if you've been writing her cheques for your half of the bills, and she hasn't paid the mortgage and bills for 3 months...then what has she done with your cheques?
*Shakes head* sorry you're going through the mill Els.
Shocking bad way to go about it. What a fucking craven move. Can't get my head around that sort of behaviour.
Hang on though...if you've been writing her cheques for your half of the bills, and she hasn't paid the mortgage and bills for 3 months...then what has she done with your cheques?
Sounds like theft, to me.
There ya go Splode go file charges , get her dumb ass arrested
Oh, Elspode, I'm so sorry. There's nothing I could say that everyone else has not said already. So, HUGZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. Stay strong, Pat.
The other big question was the closing of all the joint bank accounts. Did she walk away with all the joint money and leave a few months of bills unpaid?
I had a joint account with my mom. I went to the bank and closed it by myself. They gave me all the money that was in the account. So, I'm guessing that depends on the state or bank, it's possible.
I had a Joint account with my Mom ,
She emptied it and left me with $1100 worth of bad checks at a Navy exchange ( on base store),Yes there is a NIS (befor NCIS) file on me ,
Then borrowed the money from a friend, sent me a check,
and spent the money i sent home to pay off the debt to the Now Xfriend
So, I'm guessing that depends on the state or bank, it's possible.
I think it all comes down to the wording on the account. If it said "Els AND Biatch," both their signatures would be required. If it said "Els OR Biatch," she can probably get away with closing the account on her own.
Posted because it is beautiful and truthful, as only great music can be...
[youtube]4aj_vABphAo[/youtube]
Elspode, brother, I know your pain. I know your shock, your bewilderment, your feelings of stunned betrayal. You know I do. I've lived a full life, and there has been no experience that hurt more. Surprisingly, to me, it was not fatal. It was a surprise to only me though. Many others knew from the begining that it would not be fatal.
Your pain, while immense and undeserved, will not be fatal.
I know you, I know your family situation a bit, we've been friends for years. You've been privy to the most intimate agonies of my own. There are valid similarities in each of our stories. I want to tell you a couple things that are true about my situation, that are probably true about your situation, and that I don't think you grok. Yet.
1 -- Most importantly, you do not deserve this kind of treatment. This kind of ambush IS NOT a result of your actions, your behavior, your quality as a partner or as a man. Please remember this. All of us face situations, all of us make decisions, all of us take actions, for which we are responsible. Sometimes the range of options is small, and it feels like we've been "forced" to act in a certain way. Maybe. Sometimes we have more time and latitude to choose what action to take, regardless, we're responsible for our own choices. You are responsible for yours, and Donna's responsible for hers.
Her actions are a result of her choices. That I can say with certainty. *Why* she chose these actions is not something I can say with much certainty. Please keep in mind they are *her* actions. They are her responsibility.
2 -- Also important, but this will not be helpful until later, I learned when I went through an almost identical situation that my pain, my suffering was directly related to the degree of excess responsibility I'd assumed for what happened in our relationship. I'd taken on far, far more responsibilty for things that were out of my control. In hindsight, this is easy to identify as a very bad idea. But in the moment, it felt like helplessness, unfairness, betrayal. It felt like an unjustified attack, like I'd been framed for the catastrophe. That was my mistake, thinking I'd done something wrong enough to justify such a take no prisoners pre emptive strike. Thinking that my part in our relationship had earned such a response, that somehow I deserved it.
It was this overreach on my part that caused me great agony. When I reduced the scope of what I felt I was responsible for, the shock and awe diminished also. I don't know what happened between all of you. I'm not offering absolution. But I have to tell you, having an appropriate understanding of what was my shit, and what wasn't my shit, made all the shit seem less.
Like I said, this is something for a different season, but I want to plant this seed now. Be reasonable, be honest and you will be able to see what is right for you to be hurt about, and what is not.
I can't imagine you've done anything to deserve this disrespectful action by her.
Beyond words here... I cannot see the other side's reasoning.
She said "I felt that you just wouldn't let me go."
Well Donna has an awfully high opinion of herself.
Then there is this -
I have followed a plan that was developed by myself and my attorney for the past several months.
All accounts with (our bank) have been shut down.
Mortgage has not been paid since Sept.
Utilities have not been paid since Sept.
What atty would justify basically stealing your 1/2 of the money and
leaving the bills unpaid?
This makes no sense at all.
This is beyond cold hearted. It is nothing short of evil. There is more to this than she has let on. The proverbial "other shoe" has not yet dropped. Get professional advice ASAP.
Oh and the consolation that the boyfriend had nothing to do with it?
Yeah right. Spare me.
I am so sorry for you and hate that you are going through this. Please know my thoughts are with you.
What atty would justify basically stealing your 1/2 of the money and
leaving the bills unpaid?
This makes no sense at all.
Attorneys get paid first, then whoever's left gets whatever's left.
Attorneys get paid first, then whoever's left gets whatever's left.
Sounds like politicians.
Attorneys get paid first, then whoever's left gets whatever's left.
Sounds like politicians.
Aren't virtually all politicians attorneys?
What atty would justify basically stealing your 1/2 of the money and
leaving the bills unpaid?
This makes no sense at all.
This is beyond cold hearted. It is nothing short of evil.
What's the difference between a lawyer and a lab rat?
Some things a lab rat just won't do. :D
99% of attorneys give the rest a bad name.
I had a Joint account with my Mom ,
She emptied it and left me with $1100 worth of bad checks at a Navy exchange ( on base store),Yes there is a NIS (befor NCIS) file on me ,
Then borrowed the money from a friend, sent me a check,
and spent the money i sent home to pay off the debt to the Now Xfriend
I have long since learned that, when there's money involved, *everything* else is secondary, if it is a consideration at all.
I took the day off from work with my boss' blessing, and accomplished a great deal. I did get printouts from our bank, and from what I can see, there wasn't much money in them at all...less than $300. However, what I have yet to have time to research is whether or not my checks were all deposited and then used as they were intended, or if she was cashing them and pocketing the funds without paying the bills.
It could be that we were that far behind, and she was paying what she could, when she could. I won't have time to research this until I get through this week. In the meantime, we got a lot of my stuff moved over to Leslie's, but there's much more to move...and then much more to be disposed, especially trash. A great deal of trash was created and left in her hasty, clandestine departure.
I have feelers our for a real estate agent who is experienced in handling distressed/short sale properties. If the rest of this week works as well as today - if I get sufficient help with strong backs and trucks, basically - the hardest part will be done.
I promise to be here more soon. As I said, I've missed you all, and I have no good excuse for why I've been nothing more than a lurker for so very long. Thanks for the good vibes. Please keep them coming, and try to spare some for Selene as well. She has to be going through some pretty fucked up shit in her head/life to have resorted to this.
Sorry, 'spode, Im not as big a person as you, I care about you and dont like to see you hurt, so Selene gets nuttin from me :)
You though...love you long time.
I took the day off from work with my boss' blessing, and accomplished a great deal. I did get printouts from our bank, and from what I can see, there wasn't much money in them at all...less than $300. However, what I have yet to have time to research is whether or not my checks were all deposited and then used as they were intended, or if she was cashing them and pocketing the funds without paying the bills.
It could be that we were that far behind, and she was paying what she could, when she could. I won't have time to research this until I get through this week. In the meantime, we got a lot of my stuff moved over to Leslie's, but there's much more to move...and then much more to be disposed, especially trash. A great deal of trash was created and left in her hasty, clandestine departure.
I have feelers our for a real estate agent who is experienced in handling distressed/short sale properties. If the rest of this week works as well as today - if I get sufficient help with strong backs and trucks, basically - the hardest part will be done.
I promise to be here more soon. As I said, I've missed you all, and I have no good excuse for why I've been nothing more than a lurker for so very long. Thanks for the good vibes. Please keep them coming, and try to spare some for Selene as well. She has to be going through some pretty fucked up shit in her head/life to have resorted to this.
Glad you're getting sorted Els. And, ok, fair enough, I'll spare a thought for Selene. Like you say, she must be going through some shit, or her head must be all over the show to do what she's done and the way she's done it.
But: she only gets the spare good vibes :p The bulk are for you. You're a bigger man than most on this Els.
...and try to spare some for Selene as well. She has to be going through some pretty fucked up shit in her head/life to have resorted to this.
That's pretty much what I'd expect you to say... but, no. I'm not buying that shit, not for a minute.
This wasn't a wrong choice driven by a panicky fight or flight situation. This was a carefully crafted, fuck-you-long-time, kick in the nuts, by an evil, self-centered, cunt. An act so vile, even she can't watch it unfold.
Ok, you don't want to hear, or even think, such things about a woman you loved so long. But I feel a suicide bomber has more integrity, and more dignity, than this bomb thrower.
You think maybe she's suffering? I hope you're right, as she so richly deserves it.
Maybe later, I'll break down and tell you how I really feel. :angry:
That's pretty much what I'd expect you to say... but, no. I'm not buying that shit, not for a minute.
This wasn't a wrong choice driven by a panicky fight or flight situation. This was a carefully crafted, fuck-you-long-time, kick in the nuts, by an evil, self-centered, cunt. An act so vile, even she can't watch it unfold.
That's it, right there.
Bruce nailed it.
snip--
I promise to be here more soon. As I said, I've missed you all, and I have no good excuse for why I've been nothing more than a lurker for so very long.
Good. I'm counting on it.
Thanks for the good vibes. Please keep them coming, and try to spare some for Selene as well. She has to be going through some pretty fucked up shit in her head/life to have resorted to this.
You're welcome. You have my good vibes as does Selene.
Ya'll--an aside--it's my experience that good vibes for the ex are a gift to both, especially to Elspode in this case. I felt the same way when I was in a similar situation. He's in adrift in an ocean of shit for the moment, throwing in some free floating focused hate doesn't improve that situation, especially since he's asked for the opposite.
I believe this:
She has to be going through some pretty fucked up shit in her head/life to have resorted to this.
produces this:
This wasn't a wrong choice driven by a panicky fight or flight situation. This was a carefully crafted, fuck-you-long-time, kick in the nuts, by an evil, self-centered, cunt. An act so vile, even she can't watch it unfold.
I agree with you xoB, I do. But I also know that Elspode chose her, built a life with her to this point and did so not because she was Susanna bin Laden, but because she was in Elspode's eyes a good person. I support Elspode because he's my friend and I'll do what I can for him. For me, that includes holding my hatred in abeyance.
Gotcha there Big V.
But the comments have been directed at how she behaved, not who she is as a person.
I'll go along with 'Spode's request and heap no calumny upon her head.
But she's off my prayer list.
But she's off my prayer list.
Not mine. Did I tell you I'm a Satan worshipper?;)
But she's off my prayer list.
On a different prayer list...
I'm with xoB and foot.
I wish you all the best and a speedy ... adjustment/conclusion/departure... whatever with as little pain as possible.
Well, yeah - I'm cheating because I don't have a prayer list either way.
And I don't think my well-wishing or ill-wishing affect anyone but me.
But I'm willing to try in the positive vibes for Els. And not for Selene.
I doubt it will make her cry into her coffee, but it's about all I can do in a negative way, whilst respecting 'Spode's wishes.
... whilst respecting 'Spode's wishes.
How civilized of you. I thought this was really about all of us projecting our own hostility at former lovers/spouses/whatever onto Patrick's current situation.
NOW what will I do with my unresolved anger?
You can vent it on me.
My veneer of civilisation is only that.
this is why I like you footfootfooot.
You're so agile, so deft. You take a horrible situation, and in one sentence, disarm and display all our inner grudges.
How charming of you. :thumbsup:
You can vent it on me.
My veneer of civilisation is only that.
You're not particle board underneath are you? Don't get wet.
Thanks for the good vibes. Please keep them coming, and try to spare some for Selene as well.
That sucks, Els. I hope you bounce back quickly.
On the above, though, I can't go along. I think it's pretty low to leave without telling the person face to face. If nothing else, you've just mad closure hard to come by.
I think she's got some bad Karma coming.
hey els, im going through rough times too, maybe not as rough as yours but i have so much sympathy. stay safe, good vibes and happy thoughts beaming your way.
I haven't been back here in a coon's age, but I had to get the story after seeing the fb posts. Els, you've been one one of the most fascinating, open-hearted and admirable people I've met in the last decade. I believe in you. I don't know Donna so I cannot judge her. But I do know you don't deserve this. I'm so sorry.
Be strong. I'm glad TF is there for you.
Hugs to both of you.
PIE!!!
The reunion is complete!
FYI Pie: Labrat, Ducksnuts, Lookout, Elspode and MoreThanPretty have all put in appearnaces in the last week or so. Now you too. Even Sheldon is a bit more regular.
Any other long-term-regulars-turned-absentees we should be watching for?
Even Sheldon is a bit more regular.
Its the new extra strength metamucil he's been taking with breakfast.
Don't worry about how I know what he eats for breakfast.
Pie, I've been saving a user title for you:
Like liquid Cake
I agree with you xoB, I do. But I also know that Elspode chose her, built a life with her to this point and did so not because she was Susanna bin Laden, but because she was in Elspode's eyes a good person. I support Elspode because he's my friend and I'll do what I can for him. For me, that includes holding my hatred in abeyance.
My diatribe has nothing to do with 'Spode, it was at Donna Bin Laden.
Everyone who's been around here for some time knows Elspode makes Ghandi look like an SS Stormtrooper. (No Godwin) They both were aware the marriage was petering out, so the divorce was not a surprise. He was also aware she could be ruthless to those that deserved it.
But the way she blindsided him, making the exit as smooth as possible for herself, leaving him debts, a fucked credit rating, and virtually no chance to recover any equity from the house, is lower than whale shit.
I know he will forgive her, that's our 'Spode.
But I'll be God Damned if I will... no way, no how, not ever.:mad:
So, hearing everyone tell you that you don't deserve this kind of treatment rolls right off, don't it? You're scratching your head wondering why she did it anyway. I mean.... We just know you from the words you write, and the things you say. Selene lived with you. If anyone knows you, it's her...right? And for some reason, she willfully and specifically fucked you over. She seemingly went out of her way to hurt you. Why? Why did she think she had to do it this way? What did she mean, you wouldn't let her go? Maybe you were unwittingly possessive and controlling... Maybe you didnt realize that you held sway over her. She seems strong, but perhaps it was a front...
Maybe thats all crazy thoughts that will keep you wallowing in circular confusion for a couple of months.... She has closure. You don't.
That's the worst part. The wondering why. In time, ...a lot of time.... You'll give up wondering. You can't understand it because you are not her.
Maybe you won't be bothered by it.... All I know is that I was...and because I'm egocentric, I assume you would react the exact same way that I would;)
I hope you're hearing this might help you see that it ain't you, it's her...and even though you may not be able to Really literally Realize it, that maybe it will give you a foothold.
You'll be a better man ....even Better!.... From the introspection.
I hope this part goes as quickly and easily as the gods can allow and still afford you the ability to learn what is being taught (whatever that is) without the need for a repeat lesson.
My love to you, brother. All of our loves to you. We have your back.
There's a lot of fantastic wisdom in this thread.
PIE!!!
The reunion is complete!
FYI Pie: Labrat, Ducksnuts, Lookout, Elspode and MoreThanPretty have all put in appearnaces in the last week or so. Now you too. Even Sheldon is a bit more regular.
Any other long-term-regulars-turned-absentees we should be watching for?
Squirell Nutkin?
PIE!!!
The reunion is complete!
FYI Pie: Labrat, Ducksnuts, Lookout, Elspode and MoreThanPretty have all put in appearnaces in the last week or so. Now you too. Even Sheldon is a bit more regular.
Any other long-term-regulars-turned-absentees we should be watching for?
Don't forget Ibram.
I haven't been back here in a coon's age
Missed you. Come back soon.
Psst... Dar's around, he just changed his name to PeteZicato. :)
Eh hem - did you notice I quoted the squirrell?
Similar situation?
Sorry, shiny things have me quite distracted these days. Also, things which are not shiny, but have a texture strikingly similar to poo and are threatening to hit my air circulation devices.
True, and even Bruce!
Is it due to the colder weather up there, forcing you all indoors where you turn to the internet for entertainment?
Not really cold weather here :P.
I found out on FB a couple of days ago. I still have no words I can think of that describe my feelings in a concise way. It sucks. That is the most eloquent thing I can think of to say.
So many interesting things to respond to...and when I'm not about to fall over dead from exhaustion (which is likely to be a few days out yet...so much crap to move and integrate in to TF's place), I'll come address several things individually. Until then, y'all are priceless to me. Thanks for being, collectively, Teh Cellar.
Sorry to hear about how things went down. Knowing "how she is" did you ever expect to be on the receiving end of it?
There's a lot of fantastic wisdom in this thread.
That depends on your definition of wisdom. :lol2:
3foot's right in that personal experiences will color/temper reactions. I've seen this play out with couples I know personally so many times, three in the last 18 months, I could pretend to be clairvoyant.
:male: I don't know why she's pissed, all she says is 'nothing' or 'fine', maybe it's "the change", she can't be this mad because I drank the last of the orange juice, she's been pissed before and it blew over, maybe it'll take care of itself if I just wait... oh, the game's on.
:female: That's it, I'm done, Cosmo says if the idiot thinks it's about orange juice he just doesn't love me, I'll just make my plans, talk to my girlfriends, and get legal advice.
What we got here is... failure to communicate.
Wait, so is it about the orange juice or not?
"My wife said she wanted a divorce, something about how I never listen, I'm not really sure, I wasn't paying attention."
If she bitches about the orange juice, then no, it's got nothing to do with it.
It's ALWAYS about the orange juice. Silly men.
Well, maybe that's just me. If I'm pissed about orange juice (first, I need a life because if OJ is all I have to worry about then I'm awfully bored) then you can be sure that OJ has a deep and meaningful presence in my life. Maybe I die without it?
Maybe it's about you talking to me like I'm your pet mongrel. That might do it. ;)
People, people!
Drink MILK!
Coz OJ will kill ya!!
OJ foisted Robert George Kardashian on the public, and we all know the garbage that led to. :vomit:
Seriously. I heard on the radio that some store has the Kardashian Kollection (I'm sure it doesn't start with a K but that would be just about right in the cutesy-dumb category.)
What, Ho Clothes?
OMG, Dat Ho's clothes ARE spelled with a K.
We were tempted to spell "clothing" and "coming" with a 'K' in the title in true Kardashian fashion, but we refrained. And you're welcome. First came Kardashian Konfidential...now comes Kardashian Kollection available at Sears!
Afterwards, you can have a big breakfast at the Kuntry Kitchen, then you can go to KOA Kampground.
Oh oh oh...here's a doozy. Kourtney can see sears from her house!
"We love Sears," Kourtney added. "There is a Sears right near our house."
Oh, pukage.
http://www.okmagazine.com/news/kim-kourtney-khlo%C3%A9s-new-clothing-line-kardashian-kollection-coming-searsWhat, Ho Clothes?
With roomy butts, unless you're a Kardashian.;)
So, hearing everyone tell you that you don't deserve this kind of treatment rolls right off, don't it? You're scratching your head wondering why she did it anyway. I mean.... We just know you from the words you write, and the things you say. Selene lived with you. If anyone knows you, it's her...right? And for some reason, she willfully and specifically fucked you over. She seemingly went out of her way to hurt you. Why? Why did she think she had to do it this way? What did she mean, you wouldn't let her go? Maybe you were unwittingly possessive and controlling... Maybe you didnt realize that you held sway over her. She seems strong, but perhaps it was a front...
Maybe thats all crazy thoughts that will keep you wallowing in circular confusion for a couple of months.... She has closure. You don't.
That's the worst part. The wondering why. In time, ...a lot of time.... You'll give up wondering. You can't understand it because you are not her.
Maybe you won't be bothered by it.... All I know is that I was...and because I'm egocentric, I assume you would react the exact same way that I would;)
I hope you're hearing this might help you see that it ain't you, it's her...and even though you may not be able to Really literally Realize it, that maybe it will give you a foothold.
You'll be a better man ....even Better!.... From the introspection.
I hope this part goes as quickly and easily as the gods can allow and still afford you the ability to learn what is being taught (whatever that is) without the need for a repeat lesson.
My love to you, brother. All of our loves to you. We have your back.
Jim, you are both wise and insane. Everything you say above is true, yet limited. Yes, I feel all those offended things...but...
...I've been waiting for the deep gut wrenching ass kicking to flow over my reality, and it just doesn't happen.
Perhaps I've overstated things. What I said about the departure was true, but since that's gone down, I've been moving stuff in with TF...she's been working her ass off at my soon to be ex house every day to organize, package, eliminate, and get what matters moved here.
I think this is what was supposed to happen. I wish it had happened differently, but...
My diatribe has nothing to do with 'Spode, it was at Donna Bin Laden.
Everyone who's been around here for some time knows Elspode makes Ghandi look like an SS Stormtrooper. (No Godwin) They both were aware the marriage was petering out, so the divorce was not a surprise. He was also aware she could be ruthless to those that deserved it.
But the way she blindsided him, making the exit as smooth as possible for herself, leaving him debts, a fucked credit rating, and virtually no chance to recover any equity from the house, is lower than whale shit.
I know he will forgive her, that's our 'Spode.
But I'll be God Damned if I will... no way, no how, not ever.:mad:
Bruce, this is all true. And you're right...I've already forgiven her. She's aching from this. It doesn't score her any points with me, but yeah, she's fucked in the head over all of this. As well she should be.
I still love ya, remind me to give you a reach around next time I'm out that way. :lol:
I think she's got some bad Karma coming.
She does, and I'm sure she knows it. For my part, I've been trying to feed my positive karma in the wake of all this, but part of feeding the Positivity Beast is making sure that you spread it around.
I wish her well. When the inevitable day comes that the only person who can absolve her, comfort her, tell her she'll be okay...when that day comes, I'll be there, I'll provide it, she'll take it...and walk away.
It's what is required. It's what I do.
I still love ya, remind me to give you a reach around next time I'm out that way. :lol:
I have your picture stenciled on my underwear.
If it helps you, directly or indirectly, then surely you must. No one can condemn you for following your heart.
Im insane?
Thats a hell of a thing to say.
Insane can also mean extravagant/excessive. Perhaps Elspode simply felt that you overanalyzed; or, over identified with his situation for your limited exposure.
[YOUTUBE]zAlNrtcPCLw[/YOUTUBE]
damnitalltohell bro! FAWK! tough process to go through as we all know. but things get better and work out. positive thoughts for ya man!
[QUOTE=jimhelm;777362]Im insane?
Thats a hell of a thing to say.[/QUOTEJ
Just illustrating the breadth of your POV. What is insane to me is perfectly suited to Jim. Don't be offended.
So, here I am, a week and two hours post-discovery of the hard left turn my life has taken. Thanks to the support of a whole lot of friends, most of my stuff is now moved (although most of it is packed away in Leslie's garage and basement). She and I are pretty much acting like newlyweds - okay, 50-something newlyweds, so we aren't keeping the neighbors up at night - and squeezing our households together, cleaning and culling as we go.
There are a lot of issues to be surmounted. I still haven't been served with divorce papers yet, so I don't really know what terms Selene is going to be asking for. We have no assets whatsoever. By that I mean that we are upside down on the house, we each own our own ancient cars, and the stuff she took vs the stuff she left me probably balances the scale pretty evenly. I expect the basic outcome to be that I have to pay all the outstanding utility bills (a considerable sum), some portion of the legal costs of the divorce, and any associated costs of short selling the house...as well as having to deal with the sale and presale cleanup of the place.
Overall, with the exception of the house, this is all going down a whole lot less painfully than my first separation and divorce, and for that, I am grateful, because I very nearly took myself out that time. I wish that was hyperbole, but it isn't.
I hate it when terrible things happen, and the victim survives, and people say "Wow, you were really lucky"...because how can walking out of a train wreck broken and bloodied be luck? But I *am* lucky. I have the love of my partner of four years, the respect and support of the community that I have served for the last fifteen years, and an ex wife who seems to not be trying to eviscerate me on the battlefield of divorce.
It could be worse. It could most certainly be worse.
Do you still have a motorcycle?
I do, yes indeed. If it weren't Winter, it would be my primary transportation.
I wish her well. When the inevitable day comes that the only person who can absolve her, comfort her, tell her she'll be okay...when that day comes, I'll be there, I'll provide it, she'll take it...and walk away.
It's what is required. It's what I do.
I refuse to believe that God/The Universe/Nature wants you to be a doormat.
Really, Elspode. Ask for the movies that you want back.
Really, Elspode. Ask for the movies that you want back.
For sure. this is the straightest path to a fair outcome.
I refuse to believe that God/The Universe/Nature wants you to be a doormat.
Only *I* can make myself feel like a doormat. I don't plan to do so.
Only *I* can make myself feel like a doormat. I don't plan to do so.
But you'd be a bathmat to sneak a peek.;)
hahahahahahaha *CHOKECOUGHCOUGHCOUGHACK*... you dog, you.
Ahhhahah, Bruce. Wisdom, straight talking and a little mischief. Hang out here more often, will you?
Only *I* can make myself feel like a doormat. I don't plan to do so.
A doormat by any other name would smell as stinky.
i sure am glad i wasn't taking a sip of beer and reading this!
When have you ever "sipped" beer?;)
i sure am glad i wasn't taking a sip of beer and reading this!
When have you ever "sipped" beer?;)
Yeah, from what I hear he'd need to have his laptop taped to the ceiling to read while drinking beer.
I just noticed that when I posted my new address, I fucked up. So, once again, for anyone keeping score:
11412 E 77th Terrace
Raytown, MO 64138
Yup...this time, it is correct.
Leslie (TF) has been busting her hump every day at the house while I'm at work. Looks like we're just a couple of evenings away from being essentially done. Then, I just have a fish tank to get rid of, and then the DAV gets to haul off the remains. A small amount of cleaning and minor patch up will follow, and then...maybe someone will buy it.
Excellent, Zippy. :thumb:
Im insane?
Thats a hell of a thing to say.
Just illustrating the breadth of your POV. What is insane to me is perfectly suited to Jim. Don't be offended.
I gotta be honest. I AM offended.
What is insane to You is perfectly suited to Me.... Isn't that just reiterating that I'm insane by Your definition? And you say that you're just 'illustrating the breadth of my POV' after stating that it was
limited in the previous reply? which is it? just confused... not really bothered. Seems like maybe you're just wriggling because I took exception to what you said to me.
I honestly don't see anything
insane about what I said to you there. Or maybe you were just saying that I'm insane in a general way... not specifically about what I said? I know your opinion of me isn't very high..just based on things you've said over the years, but I spent about an hour composing that post, thinking about your situation, and trying to empathize with you. I was not expecting the response to be dismissive and insulting.
I know you have much larger issues to occupy your mind, but I thought I should let you know that this was sticking with me. I'd like to think you intended no offense, and it's just a matter of you thinking I'm a crazy jerk.
I don't really know why that bothers me. I mean.... I knew you thought I was a jerk, but the insane thing? I have to disagree. I'll cop to the jerk part. I know I have been, so I'll own that.
Anyway... I still hope you get through this as easily as possible.
I didn't see anything that would make me think 'insane' in that post either. I thought it was a nice viewpoint from someone who's been there, in the not so distant past. I really don't know why the word is there, but I don't think it was meant maliciously. It was just an odd choice. For what it's worth.
I do hope things are starting to feel better for you, spode.
Jim's was a good post and I didn't think anything about it was insane. But I also assumed that 'splode's using that choice of words was kind of like Bill Murray jovially addressing someone as a "crazy kid" or something like that.
But I hesitate to jump into this because you're both adults who can work this out yourself. So shut up and hug. :)
Jim, reading back through it, I think it was just a drunkenly poor choice of a word. Perhaps it would have been better to say that what you'd written was both on target yet wildly off. Sure, I've mulled over some self-recrimination, but I've pretty much considered it and let it go. The collapse of things was a mutual event, not my fault and only mine, so I'm no more or less culpable than she is.
You are correct...no one, including me, knows why the fuck she chose to exit the way she did. I don't think it's because she's evil. I think it's because she's chickenshit, and that was the quickest way to get out of having to deal with me over the collapse of our finances and household. She herself has compared it to "ripping off a bandaid", stating that it would have been much more painful and hard on both of us to try and gradually get our shit separated and go our separate ways with a plan. I can sort of see that, but I still don't think it justifies the fucking shock I got, or justifies the fact that there are so many things that we fucked up together than I will now have to unfuck on my own, since she's copped out, or justifies the total lack of input I got on how things were divided, etc, etc. It's kinda like she's pissed on the toilet seat and left it wet, knowing I'd have to sit on it.
Far be it from me to tell someone they're insane, though.
Met with Selene tonight for the first time since her departure. Compared to her, I think I'm at least in a better emotional place. We both have some tough roads ahead of us, but I'm mostly moved in with someone who loves me and who has been busting her ass on my behalf, so I feel rather blessed, all things considered.
Selene and I seem to have arrived at some mutual agreement on how to divide the debts. Basically, I'll get them all except her student loan debt, but I'll be able to either pay them off, or get them massively reduced or eliminated through the inevitable bankruptcy.
And so it goes.
Why do you get all the debt, 'spode? How do you "mutually agree" for you to get all the debt accumulated during your relationship.
Im still pissy on your behalf, whether its what you want or not.
I do love the fact that you have a strong women like TF in your corner and wonderful friends.
I get all the debt...except $55k in student loans. :-)
And student loans are non-dischargeable, so I think he has the better end of the deal, here.
Even *she* said that, and I am inclined to agree.
I get all the debt...except $55k in student loans. :-)
Why?
Still her student loans are *HERS* alone. That wouldn't be considered mutual debt unless you signed off on them (I believe)
That shouldn't even be on the table.
Idealistically it should be 1/2 of whatever debt the two of you accrued together/2.
Jus sayin.
I agree with classic. I'd also be deducting the money you paid her in the last few months for rent and utilities which she apparently embezzled.
But if, as you say, bankruptcy is inevitable, #$%& it, take on all dischargable debt and scuttle the lot.
It just really sucks that you have to go through this Els. I really hope that when the dust settles you really are in a better place emotionally, physically and financially.
love.
xx
Still her student loans are *HERS* alone. That wouldn't be considered mutual debt unless you signed off on them (I believe)
That shouldn't even be on the table.
Idealistically it should be 1/2 of whatever debt the two of you accrued together/2.
Jus sayin.
I think it might come under the "the loans allowed her to get the job which allowed her to contribute to the lifestyle to which 'Spode had become accustomed, Your Honor" argument. Not sure, though.
'Spode, who owns the house? Will there be a profit from its sale?
Student loans and bankruptcy:
Student loans are difficult, but not impossible, to discharge in bankruptcy. To do so, you must show that payment of the debt “will impose an undue hardship on you and your dependents.”
UNDUE HARDSHIP EXAMPLES
It is up to the court to decide whether you meet the “undue hardship” standard. Here are a few examples of successful and unsuccessful cases.
1.A 58 year old I.R.S. employee making about $38,000/year was able to get his loans discharged. He had taken out the loans to attend a chiropractic program which he never completed. His overall expenses were about equal to his income. He was able to show that it was unlikely that his income would increase until his planned retirement at age 65. He was single with no dependents and had health problems. The court found that he had acted in good faith even though he had never made any voluntary student loan payments.
2.A college-educated married couple proved undue hardship and were able to discharge their loans. They both worked, but had income barely above poverty level. The court noted that the borrowers worked in worthwhile, although low-paying careers. One worked as a teacher’s aide and the other as a teacher working with emotionally disturbed children. Even with a very frugal budget, they had $400 more a month in expenses than income. Their expenses included $100 monthly tuition to send their daughter to private school. Relatives paid for most of this and the couple testified that they objected to the public school’s corporeal punishment policy. In agreeing to discharge the loans, the court also found that the couple had acted in good faith because they asked about the possibility of a more affordable repayment plan. Not all courts are as sympathetic to borrowers who work in low-paying careers. For example, one borrower was denied a discharge because he worked as a cellist for an orchestra and taught music part-time. The court suggested that this borrower could find higher-paying work. Another court came up with the same result for a pastor. The court found that it was the borrower’s choice to work as a pastor for a start-up church rather than try to find a higher paying job.
3.A number of courts have granted discharges in cases where the borrower did not benefit from the education or went to a fraudulent school.
4.There have been mixed results when borrowers have tried to show that their financial difficulties will persist into the future. For example, one court found that a borrower’s alcoholism was not an insurmountable problem, but some borrowers have won these cases. In one case, a borrower’s testimony about her mental impairment, including evidence that she received Social Security benefits, was enough to convince the court of undue hardship. The court agreed with the borrower that her ongoing mental illness was likely to continue to interfere with her ability to work.
Article here for more info:
http://www.studentloanborrowerassistance.org/bankruptcy/:(
morning frown face 'cause, if she asked you, spode, to cut your wrists too, seems like you'd comply. Could be just morning brain fog though.
Maybe I shouldn't be thinking out loud.
Still her student loans are *HERS* alone. That wouldn't be considered mutual debt unless you signed off on them (I believe)
That shouldn't even be on the table.
Idealistically it should be 1/2 of whatever debt the two of you accrued together/2.
Jus sayin.
At least half of her student loan debt was accrued during our marriage, and a great deal of that money went towards mutual expenses. Legally, can I get away with it? Sure...but I'm moral, not legal.
I agree with classic. I'd also be deducting the money you paid her in the last few months for rent and utilities which she apparently embezzled.
But if, as you say, bankruptcy is inevitable, #$%& it, take on all dischargable debt and scuttle the lot.
I'm sure that she probably kept some of my bill money to fund her exit. She paid deposit on an apartment, painted it (I know, right?), bought a couple of odds and ends items for it, although she's got more shit than will ever fit in it, and paid her lawyer. However, her grandmother has been funding the shortfall for our household for a few months now, and also paid the retainer for the lawyer. We have been chronically behind on our debts for...well...years. I have no reason to believe the she embezzled anything. We didn't have much to begin with.
The ultimate goal is to simply make the sixteen years of our union come out equitably. So far, I haven't agreed to anything that I don't find reasonable by my own dead reckoning. No, I would NOT cut my wrists if she asked me to. If I was a dickhead, I'd get a lawyer, and fight her tooth and nail for every dime, and could probably come out a lot better. That might be legal, but it wouldn't be fair. It wouldn't be moral.
Money comes and goes, but Karma is forever.
In my experience, fair is a good goal. And your dead reckoning is the best gauge of this. Also, there's no rule that says it needs to come out to the same number to four significant digits. Fair's fair, you'll know it when you see it.
I don't agree about the lawyer part though. Keep in mind, her lawyer IS WORKING FOR HER, NOT FOR YOU. Do not lose sight of this fact. However, retaining your own lawyer for some hot lawyer on lawyer action, definitely doubles (or more) your expenses, and let's face it, your payments to the lawyer(s) come right off the top of your resources. There's a valid argument for avoiding them (at all costs, nyuk nyuk nyuk).
You will be living with your own decision forever, those are the ones you have to make sure you're making well. You are a smart man, a good man. You can trust yourself.
Student loans and bankruptcy:
Article here for more info:
http://www.studentloanborrowerassistance.org/bankruptcy/
If she could do this, we would, of course, renegotiate the rest of our debt. I'll provide this info to her. Thanks! Even if this wasn't your intent. :)
I think it might come under the "the loans allowed her to get the job which allowed her to contribute to the lifestyle to which 'Spode had become accustomed, Your Honor" argument. Not sure, though.
'Spode, who owns the house? Will there be a profit from its sale?
Spexx, yes, that would fit. Not so much extravagant, just money spent to keep it all rolling. It really is an honest claim.
No, no profit likely. We paid $165k about 30 seconds before the bubble burst. If it short sold for $130k, I'd be blissful, in this market. Fuck, I'd be blissful if it sold at all.
You are a good man spode. You have a big heart.
I understand, els.
I pretty much walked away, and left most everything behind. I didn't fight for the house or any of that stuff. People thought I was batty but I couldn't see it. A marriage with a best friend was ending, and I wanted as little pain as possible. I got my car, and my stuff.
I didn't really want the house anyway. He's still living there and has a roomie and I'm glad he's been able to hold onto it.
(Of course, who woulda thunk that my best friend, years later, would buy the house across the street!) :)
'course, if we'd still been living in the amazing apartment at the biggest mansion in town (rented) I would have stayed there in a heartbeat.
We make choices on what's best for us, each individual. What was best for me was to just let it all go. Whether that was wise on my part (not putting my already tentative grasp on mental health on the line) or really stupid (too wimpy to go through it all) it doesn't matter. End result the same.
I'm glad that SL info might be helpful. ;)
I pretty much walked away, and left most everything behind. I didn't fight for the house or any of that stuff. People thought I was batty but I couldn't see it. A marriage with a best friend was ending, and I wanted as little pain as possible. I got my car, and my stuff.;
Ditto.
I even moved to a different city so that he could keep all our friends without any conflict and didn't worry about bumping into me.
Although that was also partly to get away from all the disapproval too.
I remember when me and J split. He was going to leave Halifax and move to London to start again. I persuaded him not to. The idea of him alone in a city that makes even the slightest isolation feel critical horrified me.
Glad i did. I was fucking determined we weren't losing the friendship.
Dana, keeping our friendship is a goal of mine. I don't know if it is realistic, and I have no real way of knowing if it is as big a deal to her as it is to me. She has repeatedly claimed that it is, but it remains to be seen. Actions speak louder than words.
She's awfully used to having me at her beck and call. I'm not real sure how she's going to handle me doing what I *want* to do where she is concerned as opposed to what I feel *obligated* to do.
Actions speak louder than words.
I agree 100%. So far, based upon the way this was handled, it doesn't look good from here.
Perth and I had that same goal in mind when we split. And we still are friends after almost 8 years. I chat with him almost every other day or so. So, I know it is attainable. It takes a lot of forgiveness on both sides. Keep your chin up, man. You'll get through it.
I have forgiven, but not forgotten. I'm not that big a person yet.
....I don't agree about the lawyer part though. Keep in mind, her lawyer IS WORKING FOR HER, NOT FOR YOU. Do not lose sight of this fact. However, retaining your own lawyer for some hot lawyer on lawyer action, definitely doubles (or more) your expenses, and let's face it, your payments to the lawyer(s) come right off the top of your resources. There's a valid argument for avoiding them (at all costs, nyuk nyuk nyuk).......
DUDE trust me on this one. i let my exwife handle the divorce back in 03 and lemme tell ya. yeah i got to keep the house but i got truly phucked otherwise. over 50k worth of credit card debt we accrued together. if i could do it again i'd of ponied up the cash for my lawyer.
Sorry, 'spode. I'll lay off from now on.
I'm like infi and Sundae, I walked away with nothing from 2 long term, deeply tangled relationships and it took me sooooo long to get back to where I should have been. Furniture, assets etc...the material stuff.
I'm more "me" aware now, which is why I wont let anyone get me in that situation again and that was colouring my posts.
These things are never even and never fair, youre a good hearted man but you arent an idiot - so I trust your judgement and although I dont trust Selene not to fuck you over (again), I trust you know her better than I and that you know what sits right with you.
Apologies xx
No apologies necessary from anyone. I'm here telling about all this because I *want* the varying viewpoints from my Cellar family. My POV is slanted. Independent input is always valuable in keeping my perspective. *I* apologize for being absent for so long, and only popping back up when I've got some self-pitying to do.
.... only popping back up when I've got some self-pitying to do.
Well :eyebrow:? Where is it :eyebrow::eyebrow:? I've yet to see any self-pitying from you!! Buck UP!
I was pretty lucky when I split from J. Having lived at Mum's for nigh on two years looking for a house to rent, when I did find one that would accept my lousy credit rating and a fully grown bearded collie, J and my bro, who were still business partners, basically furnished my house for me.
As J put it, when we had first split we'd been way broke, and he wasn't able to see me right at the time.
I just wish I'd had more support and understanding from friends and family.
Everyone was angry with me for leaving, and let me know about it.
I think they were also embarrassed at having been to our wedding and celebrated us as the perfect couple and now I was letting them down.
I'd have loved to stay in contact with J. I loved him very much as a friend.
I was too quick to run away in shame rather than face out the disapproval.
I did everything I could to make sure he was okay financially, so as his life collapsed around him he did not have money problems too.
I still have dreams where we've got back together again and it's just not working. I think "What am I going to do?! I can't stay but there's no way I could leave him AGAIN!"
Selene's behaviour will have consequences.
Good luck to her with that.
Oh the actual break up with me and J was pretty messy. The immediate split, was horrible, and many mistakes were made. At one point I did go back. And it was awful having to say actually, ye know what,this really isn't going to work.
I don't know if we'd have been able to pull off the staying friends bit had Martin and J not still been in business together, and me still connected with the company. It kind of forced a degree of contact initially.
I'm like infi and Sundae, I walked away with nothing from 2 long term, deeply tangled relationships and it took me sooooo long to get back to where I should have been. Furniture, assets etc...the material stuff.
I'm more "me" aware now, which is why I wont let anyone get me in that situation again and that was colouring my posts.
These things are never even and never fair, youre a good hearted man but you arent an idiot - so I trust your judgement and although I dont trust Selene not to fuck you over (again), I trust you know her better than I and that you know what sits right with you.
Zactly.