Joe Paterno to resign at end of season
Unconfirmed, but got an AP text
He could be forced out sooner if the Penn State Board of Trustees decides to do so. Leaving a t the end of this season was his decision. They could decide that his leaving immediately would be better. Time will tell.
He could be forced out sooner if the Penn State Board of Trustees decides to do so. Leaving a t the end of this season was his decision. They could decide that his leaving immediately would be better. Time will tell.
They won't.
They did.
STATE COLLEGE, Pa. -- Penn State trustees fired football coach Joe Paterno and university president Graham Spanier amid the growing furor over how the school handled sex abuse allegations against an assistant coach.
The massive shakeup Wednesday night came hours after Paterno announced that he planned to retire at the end of his 46th season.
But the outcry following the arrest of former assistant coach Jerry Sandusky on molestation charges proved too much for the board to ignore.
Speaking at his house to a couple of dozen students, Paterno said, "Right now, I'm not the football coach. And I've got to get used to that. After 61 years, I've got to get used to it. I appreciate it. Let me think it through
OK, they've decided to fired everybody to cover their ass, including the president. Cowards.
XO, Why not give the Board a small break.
As I understand it, Paterno was obligated to report the offenses of the other coach.
If so, they fired those that did not do their job properly.
If Paterno were kept on til the end of the year, couldn't the Board have been criticized
for caring more about their football season than the improper conduct of their faculty.
.
XO, Why not give the Board a small break.
As I understand it, Paterno was obligated to report the offenses of the other coach.
If so, they fired those that did not do their job properly.
If Paterno were kept on til the end of the year, couldn't the Board have been criticized
for caring more about their football season than the improper conduct of their faculty.
.
As I understand it, he met the minimum requirement for reporting. He did what he was supposed to do. Sandusky was no longer a PSU coach in 1999. They're saying that Paterno should have done more. I don't know, yet, whether it was administrators, police, or prosecutors who dropped the ball. Until there is more information, and hopefully the truth comes out, I think Joe should have been allowed to finish the season.
Penn State students riot to protest Paterno's firing. This is going to make people respect them even more....:rolleyes:
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2011/11/scenes-last-nights-penn-state-student-unrest/44792/If you sexaully abuse a child, gasoline should be pour on your head and you should be set on fire and burned to death. If you know about it and do nothing, you should be made to watch the burning and then go to prison for the rest of your life. If you protest the decision to fire those who did nothing, you should be made to explain to the children that were raped why you think football is more important than the child.
If you sexaully abuse a child, gasoline should be pour on your head and you should be set on fire and burned to death. If you know about it and do nothing, you should be made to watch the burning and then go to prison for the rest of your life. If you protest the decision to fire those who did nothing, you should be made to explain to the children that were raped why you think football is more important than the child.
Joe didn't "do nothing".
He did half of nothing... he had a responsibility to go to the police and he did not.
Paterno notified Curley and Schultz about the 2002 abuse charge and is not a target of the criminal investigation. Curley and Schultz have been charged with failing to report the incident to the authorities.
Marx brothers-sounding names aside, Paterno did so report the incident. He is not being charged. Whether you think he should have taken it elsewhere or not is your opinion. How much he knew or didn't know is still your opinion.
I'm always amazed at the propensity of people to automatically get out the pitchforks, and shoot first and ask questions later, especially when it comes to certain subjects.
Many lives have been ruined by false speculation. While the incidents are indeed too horrible to imagine, we can't keep with the knee-jerk scapegoatism we cling to...in the name of thinking of the children, or in the name of FSM himself. Not until we know the truth.
Joe didn't "do nothing".
I heard two guys speculating that he used knowledge of this incident to hang on to his job long after he should have been let go. 5 years ago there was talk of his retirement being forced upon him. Supposedly the higher ups visited him at home to talk about it, and he talked them out of it.
this is hearsay. i know nothing.
Fuck Joe Paterno.
He served at the pleasure of the university.
If he feels his discharge was unjust: he can sue.
The meat of the matter is NOT Paterno.
From Wikipedia: "Mike McQueary, then a graduate assistant, told Paterno in 2002 that he had seen Sandusky performing a sex act on a 10-year-old boy in Penn State football's shower facilities..."
McQueary, as I understand it, walked in on Sandusky and the boy and did squat to intervene.
Why isn't someone horsewhipping McQueary?
"Well, he followed procedure and reported what he saw to a superior."
Er, fuck procedure, fuck the law: If someone walks in on an adult using my five-year old nephew in such a way, I expect that someone to STOP the event, right then and there.
If *I walk in on an adult using a child in such a way, someone will be hurt.
Let the police sort out the details AFTER you horsewhip the pervert.
'Poor Joe Paterno', indeed... :angry:
*This, by the way, is not a 'moral' issue, but simply 'my' distaste for the predatory use of innocents...distaste in no small way fueled by my own love of my nephew...I don't give a shit what the law (civil or religious) has to say on the matter.
Who said Poor Joe? wtf?
Did you walk in on Sandusky?
Did you hear McQueery talk to Paterno? Did you hear Paterno talk to Curley and Mo?
Knee-jerk.
The entire Grand Jury's 23-page report is here as a PDF file
This is the part about Paterno:
p7: Joseph V. Paterno testified to receiving the graduate assistant's report at his home on a Saturday morning. Paterno testified that the graduate assistant was very upset. Paterno called Tim Curley ("Curley"), Penn State Athletic Director and Paterno's immediate superior, to his home the very next day, a Sunday, and reported to him that the graduate assistant had seen Jerry Sandusky in the Lasch Building showers fondling or doing something of a sexual nature to a young boy.
<snip>
Approximately one and a half weeks later, the graduate asssstnat was called to a meeting with Penn State Athletic Director Curley and Senior VIce President for Finanace and Business, Gary Schultz ("Shultz"). The graduate assistant reported to Curley and Schultz that he had witnessed what he believed to be Sandusky having anal sex with a boy in the Lasch Building showers. Curley and Schultz assured the graduate assistant that they would look into it and determine what further action they would take. Paterno was not present for this meeting.
Curley and Schults later testified before the Grand Jury,
and denied the graduate student specifically told them
of "anal sex" or any specific "sexual activity".
p8: Shultz testified to meeting with Paterno and Curley,
and denied a specific report of sexual activity -
he instead called it "inappropriate wrestling".
Shultz acknowledged similarities between the 1998 and 2002 incidents
Elsewhere the GJ report states:
"The Grand Jury finds the graduate assistant's testimony to be extremely credible."
As I read the Grand Jury Report, it appears to me that Paterno did notify his immediate superior,
but there's no mention of him doing anything more.
It really appears frustrating that Tim Curley, PSU's Athletic Director,
did what he was supposed to do, up to a point.
He reported to the PSU President, Graham Spanier, and he reported to
Second Mile Executive Director, Jack Raykovitz, and he banned Sandusky
from bringing any youth onto the PSU campus.
BUT: portions of his testimony before the Grand Jury were deemed "not credible"
With all that, neither the University Police nor Dept of Children and Youth Services
were notified, as required by law.
"Who said Poor Joe?"
I take the campus riot as a 'poor Joe'.
#
"Did you hear McQueery talk to Paterno?"
It's part of the public record...part of the reason Sandusky "*was arrested for 40 counts related to allegations of sexual abuse of young boys over a 15-year period"
#
"Knee-jerk."
No. Impassioned, yes...but, I'm not reacting...I'm responding to the information available (which is fairly unambiguous).
*Wikipedia
Bottom line, if a child is in danger or even if you just SUSPECT a child is in danger, YOU CALL THE COPS FIRST! Not your boss and then wait for further instructions.
Bottom line, if a child is in danger or even if you just SUSPECT a child is in danger, YOU CALL THE COPS FIRST! Not your boss and then wait for further instructions.
Right on. What I see consistently are schools who have a policy or procedure in place that says if you suspect child abuse or neglect you report to your superior or a designated person - like the school counselor and then they report or make the decision to report or not. The problem with handing your information off to someone else is that it becomes second or third hand information - you may feel better for reporting but it doesn't always get called in. Most mandated reporter laws are pretty clear. You suspect, you report. Period.
The crimes committed in PA don't surprise me one bit, it's happening right now all over the country. What I find surprising is the discussion in the media and in the streets of State College, PA pondering the firings, folks getting angry because someone or another lost their job - actual discussion/questioning about who is responsible or not. I find it pretty horrific that anyone would question holding responsible every single person who knew of the abuse and did not report to the authorities.
There are far too many loose ends in this story.
First, Sandusky mysteriously quit. To take on a head coach job that he could have easily obtained? Because he was too old? Because Paterno was retiring? None of the above. He quit in a manner similar to what would happen when fired discretely. As if allegations existed that were all but prosecutable. From the time that Sandusky retired, I had always wondered why that retirement suddenly happened for no apparent reason.
Second, a grand jury had investigated a previous Sandusky child molestation accusation. I don't know what the grand jury recommended. But the Center County DA suddenly decided there was insufficient reason to prosecute. Then some months later, his car was found in Lewisburg (Union County), with cigarette butts inside (he did not smoke), and his computer completely disassembled so that even data on the disk drive could not be recovered.
Third, the board of trustees would never fire so many people on the information publically reported. Either they made a decision based 100% emotionally (to protect themselves). Or there are a much larger story behind this entire story.
Fourth, why were so many fired. But the graduate assistant who witnessed the child rape, did nothing, and then waited a full day to report it to anyone. Why is he not among the Trustees victims? Either the Trustees made a decision based in their emotions. Or others (including the long time university president) are even guiltier.
Fifth, Paterno did what he was supposed to do. According to statements made separately by both the graduate assistant and Paterno, Joe had stopped him mid sentence. Told him all this should be reported directly to Joe's superiors. Did not get the full story. And (as best we can tell) made sure his superior knew of the allegations 'first person'. That should have been sufficient if that is all there is to this story. To not even let him finish the season implies this story is much larger.
Too many loose ends. Actions were taken too quickly and with woefully insufficient information if there is not many times more information long known by many. I find it very difficult that all these actions were taken so quickly on so few hard facts and so little guilt.
Apparently, many smoking guns have been hidden. Apparently many knew much more much longer ago. Even the DA's unresolved and sudden disappearance remains suspicious. The timeline does not make any sense.
tw, I'm thinking your Fourth item above, particularly about the graduate assistant, is a bit over the top.
According to the Grand Jury Report, it was this young man's report
to Parterno that started the investigation of Victim#2,
his report to Curley and Shultz that initiated the administration's actions,
and his testimony to the Grand Jury that was persuasive (i.e., "extremely creditable")
He did not "wait a full day to report it to anyone".
The incident was at 9:30 pm on a Friday
He immediately called his father from his office phone, asking his advise.
He met with and reported the incident to Paterno the next morning, Saturday.
Maybe other testimony shows/says something else, but this was the Grand Jury's report.
Some in the news media are vehement this young man, now 28,
should have physically intervened in the incident.
To my mind that is asking an awful lot from an emotionally stricken
18 year-old confronted with such a situation.
I'd suggest the Trustees accepted this Grand Jury's findings, and so had no reason to fire him.
I thought he was 28 at the time? I haven't heard of any 18 year old graduate assistants?
Either way I agree with you Lamplighter. I'm guessing the loyalty in football programs is extremely high and to see a highly respected individual do that would be almost world shattering. It's tough not to criticize since this is the raping of a child but he did report it and the thought of a graduate assistant taking on Joe Paterno and the rest of the Penn State football coaching team/administration is enough to make anyone shit their pants.
He did not "wait a full day to report it to anyone". The incident was at 9:30 pm on a Friday
He immediately called his father from his office phone, asking his advise.
He met with and reported the incident to Paterno the next morning, Saturday.
We are saying the same thing. He saw the child being raped. He did not intervene. He called his father for advise. And waited till then next day to report it to anyone - that being Paterno.
If the university president and others did something worse, well, we do not yet have the entire story. McQuaery's (spelling is probably wrong) actions should have gotten him fired if others were only fired for not acting more responsibly. For him to not be fired and for other to be fired implies far more serious charges that we don't know about.
As I understand it, the Grand Jury investigation and a following mysterious disappearance of the DA was about another child rape. But that was not entirely clear.
BTW, if this is all it takes to fire so many top executives, then why is the Pope not resigning for all but condoning far more pedophile attacks. Double standard, The Pope has a friend in high places. How curious. Many of the Pope's friends also wear red.
PH45, you are right... My mistake about his age. He was 28, not 18.
Bottom line, if a child is in danger or even if you just SUSPECT a child is in danger, YOU CALL THE COPS FIRST! Not your boss and then wait for further instructions.
The law down here requires that. If you're any kind of teacher, child-supervisor, medical professoinal or have any other contact with a child, if you have grounds to SUSPECT child abuse you MUST report it to an appropriate authority - principal, boss, police. Failure to do so is a criminal act.
As it should be.
The law down here requires that. If you're any kind of teacher, child-supervisor, medical professoinal or have any other contact with a child, if you have grounds to SUSPECT child abuse you MUST report it to an appropriate authority - principal, boss, police. Failure to do so is a criminal act.
But was that the law and the public attitude in 1997 when this event happened?
Somewhere before or after this event is when Sandusky suddenly resigned. I am unsure of that timeline.
Sandusky was out in 1999. This happened in 2002. Paterno reported the accusation, he didn't witness, immediately to his boss, as he should.
McQueery, who witnessed the crime, went to Paterno, but not the police as he should, still works there.
Err, TW, "down here" referred to Australia, and my description was of Australian law.
Most Australian laws do not apply in America.
We have one which might, though - an Australian who goes abroad for child sex tourism has broken Australian law and gets prison when they get back. Even organising this gets prison.
There had been a problem with Australian pedophiles exploiting the very poor in South-East Asia, hence the laws.
Note that Penn State security comes under Senior VIce President for Finanace and Business, Gary Schultz's jurisdiction. In other words, his is campus police.
Sandusky is a monster. The only victims are the children. Paterno should have been allowed to finish the season.
From
here
In 1998, the Penn State campus police and local law enforcement authorities investigated an allegation that Jerry Sandusky, then a prominent coach with the university’s football team, had engaged in inappropriate and perhaps sexual conduct with a boy in the football facility’s showers.
A lengthy police report was generated, state prosecutors said. The boy was interviewed. A second potential victim was identified. Child welfare authorities were brought in. Sandusky confessed to showering with one or both of the children. The local district attorney was given material to consider prosecution.
In the end, no prosecution was undertaken. The child welfare agency did not take action. And, according to prosecutors, the commander of the university’s campus police force told his detective, Ronald Schreffler, to close the case.
Timeline
Joe "got rid of" Sandusky in May, 1999. The inaction around the 2002 incident was much more about McQueary, Curley, and Schultz.
Paterno should have been allowed to finish the season.
Rather concerning is an investigation started by the Penn State Board of Trustees AFTER they took action.
This story is changing every day. It started with too many loose ends. Now law enforcement (State Police) might have been involved in a coverup or inaction. Police may have been notified, discussed Sandusky accusations with campus police, and did nothing.
Meanwhile we have a nearby high school called Pope John Paul II. Ironic that a pope that all but condoned pedophilia is now the name of a high school in his honor.
Had the Pope been under those Trustees, he also would have been fired.
You forgot about the possible murder to cover it all up.
Yeh this one is getting messier by the moment.
Still a lot more to come.
Yeh this one is getting messier by the moment.
I did not even begin to discuss the so many loose ends.
Lynn Abraham was the Philadelphia DA who had enough balls to subpoena files from the Philadelphia Archdiocese. She discovers over 100 pedophiles knows to the church, protected by the church, and returned to duties that involved children.
Lyn Abraham is now the lawyer for Second Choice - the organization that Sandusky worked for when he (was accused of) sexually attacked kids.
Why did so many DAs would not subpoena files from all Catholic Church archdioceses? Philadelphia region has at least four archdioceses. But pedophilia by the hundreds only exists in one? Please. Thousands of pedophile priests and employees protected by the Catholic Church would be uncovered.
Symptoms exposed in this Penn State scandal should result in investigations throughout the American Catholic Church and other institutions. Because pedophilia apparently is that widespread and routinely ignored. Apparently law enforcement has a double standard when it comes to 'honored' institutions. The scandal should result in increasing investigations throughout America.
Maybe someone else would like to explain serious restrictions long ago imposed on Boy Scout leaders. Restrictions imposed long ago because pedophilia apparently is much more widespread than acknowledged. And because the Boy Scouts reacted pro-actively. That should be a lesson that expands well beyond Penn State. That is the lesson that suggests the Catholic Church still remains a protector of pedophiles.
This is not only about Penn State. Damning are how many DAs will not do what Lynn Abraham (and her predecessor) did. BTW, Philadelphia is trying to establish a foundation necessary to prosecute the Philadelphia Cardinal who knew about (that is not disputed) and apparently condoned pedophilia by his inaction.
Why would the same archdiocese name a high school after Pope John Paul II who all but protected pedophilia. Too many in law enforcement apparently refused to investigate or prosecute this even when the church was protecting pedophiles in nations all over the world. At what point does a trend become obvious?
You are drifting into your Catholic rant there big guy.
Lets keep this on topic and relevant to the PSU issue.
Ifyou want to go off and repost all the same shit from the past, feel free to do it
here.
You are drifting into your Catholic rant there big guy.
Pedophilia is the topic. Penn State is simply one example. It is not a rant to suggest the Catholic Church acts (acted) like a mafia for pedophiles. Extremely relevant is what the Boy Scouts did long ago to avert these problems. Penn State only suggests a larger problem that includes many 'powers that be' who ignored it. This is not about Penn State. This is about the real problem. Why pedophilia is ongoing, apparently more widespread that we knew, and happens without prosecution. Pedophilia in another 'lily white' institution? (For those overseas, the Penn State program was considered a cleanest and most honest in sports.) How can this be?
Ironically to this thread, Joe Paterno is only a sidebar. Something in Chapter one to get your attention. This story keeps getting bigger including another Chapter: the NBC interview.
I see no difference between what Lynn Abraham did in Philadelphia, what the Catholic Church routinely did in Ireland, and what has happened in Penn State.
How many pedophiles are hiding out in Notre Dame? Once we would have never considered that possibility. Today, it might be possible. Too many loose ends are being exposed. If accusations are true, even the PA State Police were complicit in a cover up. So why did that DA disappear or die?
Do these scandals have an enemies list? Can anyone get on it?
FWIW, this morning the (former ?) DA from New Jersey (?) was on TV.
OK, I don't know who he was,,,
But he gave some great advise to abused children, parents and organizations...
First, he gave a recommendation to "
Darkness to Light"
This is an organization to end child sexual abuse.
For example they have specific plans and steps to follow:
Step 5: Make a Plan Learn Where to Go, Whom to Call, and How to React
Then he talked about a policy for parents and organizations to adopt:
Parents: Do not allow or else closely monitor all "one-to-one" adult-to-child situations.
Organizations: Policy Regarding One-Adult/One-Child
Clear guidelines should be established for one-adult/one-child situations.
Many organizations strictly prohibit one-on-one time under any circumstances.
However, for organizations that address the needs of children and adolescents,
one-on-one mentoring/tutoring/support is often considered important to a child’s development.
If this is the case for an organization, very specific guidelines
about such one-on-one time should be clearly articulated.
Risk Assessment
High and low risk situations in your organization should be clearly defined.
For example, a situation where one teacher is with a group of children
in an open classroom where other adults are walking in and out would be considered low risk.
A situation where an adult is alone with a child,
driving from one activity to another, would be high risk.
This probably does not warrant posting, but what the...
DAILY NEWS
Teri Thompson , Michael O'keeffe & Kevin Armstrong
November 15 2011, 1:59 PM
[SIZE="2"]Jerry Sandusky’s lawyer, Joe Amendola,
got a 16-year-old client pregnant and later married her[/SIZE]
Girl was seeking emancipation from her parents in 1996
Joe Amendola, the State College, Pa., attorney representing
accused child molester Jerry Sandusky, has an interesting back story himself:
He got a teen-age client pregnant during the mid-1990s.
Amendola, 63, married the girl several years after the birth of their child,
The Daily reported Monday night, citing documents filed at the Centre County, Pa., courthouse.
Amendola represented a 16-year-old girl then known as Mary Iavasile
when she filed an emancipation petition in September 1996.
The emancipation petition said the girl had graduated from high school
in two years with a 3.69 GPA and held a fulltime job at Amendola's law office.
The girl gave birth to Amendola's child when she was 17 years old,
her mother, Janet Iavasile, said.
Amendola would have been about 49 years old at the time.
The age of consent in Pennsylvania is 16.
<snip>
Sandusky is not the only member of the Penn State football community
who was represented by Amendola after being accused of a sexual crime.
Amendola also represented Nittany Lions tailback, Austin Scott
after another student accused Scott of rape in 2007.
Centre County prosecutors dropped the case on the eve of trial in 2008
when a judge said the jury could be told that the alleged victim
had accused another man of a similar crime four years earlier.
The man in the earlier case was acquitted.
Good info Lamp. Words to live by for those with young kids or grandkids they watch.
ETA - referring to post #39.
Because of all this, yesterday our Tae Kwon Do instructor felt that it was important to let all the parents of Kindergarteners know that he does go in the bathroom with them all to supervise when they are changing into their uniforms. Just in case they ever said anything, he wanted us to know that's what they were referring to.
So what is going on here ?
Is this a matter of party politics, or CYOA, or what ?
Has the organization been accused of anything...
...Sanduskey has been gone from it for quite a while.
On the surface, I can't see how withholding $ from an organization that
is supposedly providing a needed service to kids is going to help them.
CBS News
November 17, 2011 8:55 AM
Pa. gov puts $3M Sandusky charity grant on hold
(AP)* PHILADELPHIA — A $3 million state grant that was earmarked
for a youth charity established by a former Penn State football assistant coach
at the heart of a child molestation scandal has been put on hold.
Gov. Tom Corbett said Wednesday he knew that The Second Mile's founder, Jerry Sandusky,
was gone from the organization when the grant was approved earlier this year.
Corbett, who said the funds were being withheld in light of the growing scandal,
defended the decision to approve the grant while knowing about the allegations against Sandusky.
<snip>
The $3 million grant, initially approved under former Gov. Ed Rendell's administration
and approved again when Corbett took office in January,
was suspended "pending further review,"
Corbett spokesman Eric Shirk said Wednesday.
The grant would have helped pay for the first phase of a Learning Center project
at The Second Mile, adding classrooms, a gym, athletic fields and dormitory space.
The grant was structured to reimburse the organization as the project progressed,
and none of the money had been spent, Shirk said.
.
Pa. gov puts $3M Sandusky charity grant on hold
I heard that. I also heard that Governor Corbett was the Attorney General during some part of this, when charges were not filed. I'll look for documentation when I have more time, unless someone else gets to it first.
I read that as well spexx.
I think the name MUST change Anything associated with him has to have him purged.
So what is going on here ?
Is this a matter of party politics, or CYOA, or what ?
Has the organization been accused of anything...
...Sanduskey has been gone from it for quite a while.
On the surface, I can't see how withholding $ from an organization that
is supposedly providing a needed service to kids is going to help them.
CBS News
November 17, 2011 8:55 AM
Pa. gov puts $3M Sandusky charity grant on hold
.
I find it interesting that republicans want to do away with welfare, cut government spending, etc., and here is a rep gov and rep legislature handing out money to an organization founded and run be a pedophilic sexual predator. This also shows that a government program that performed the duties of second mile is preferable to a private organization.
Pa. governor’s office halts $3M grant for charity founded by ex-Penn State coach in abuse case
By Associated Press, November 16
PHILADELPHIA — A $3 million state grant that was earmarked for a youth charity established
by a former Penn State football assistant coach at the heart of a child molestation scandal has been put on hold.
Gov. Tom Corbett said Wednesday he knew that The Second Mile’s founder, Jerry Sandusky,
was gone from the organization when the grant was approved earlier this year.
Corbett, who said the funds were being withheld in light of the growing scandal, ~snip~
Corbett, a Republican, was the attorney general whose office in 2008 began the investigation
into allegations of sexual contact between young boys and Sandusky, who founded the charity in 1977.
I'm not really sure what you are getting at Spexx. The money was approve, then put on hold. Correct decision at this point, IMO.
I don't see the connection to your public/private argument. The real issue, to me, is in the last part of my quote. What did Corbett know back in 2008 and why did it take years for this to come out?
you're goddamn motherfuckin skippy.
"you just can't go wrong notifying the police"
Fuck. Yeah.
I couldn't make this up.
[ATTACH]35955[/ATTACH]
:facepalm:
Sandusky applied to be an assistant coach to nearby Juniata College's football team. Juniata College did a background check. So many knew Sandusky was a problem that Juniata ordered the coach to reject Sandusky. Juniata's football coach brought Sandusky onboard anyway.
When does Juniata's coach also get fired? And who are these so many people who knew Sandusky was a problem - causing him to fail a background check? More loose ends that suggest so many people knew - and said nothing.
If not yet reported in other venues, Sandusky's wife could also be charged as an accomplice to an attack on a kid locked in the basement and calling for help. She did nothing. If proven, that would also make her a felon.
Meanwhile, up north in Syracuse, that University's basketball coach and his wife are also accused (but apparently not yet charged) of doing same crimes.
Meanwhile, up north in Syracuse, that University's basketball coach and his wife
are also accused (but apparently not yet charged) of doing same crimes.
Syracuse basketball coach Jim Boeheim was sued for defamation.
The investigation of Bernie Fine is still ongoing.
Charges will be forthcoming as yet another victim has surfaced.
In an interview with ABC , attorney Karl Rominger said
Sandusky may have simply been teaching kids how to shower.
Sandusky founded the Second Mile charity organization, which helped disadvantaged youth.
"People who work with troubled youth will tell you that there are a lot of juvenile delinquents
or people who are dependent who
have to be taught basic life skills like how to put soap on their body," Rominger said.
Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat???????????
LinkMy bullshit detector just exploded.
My bullshit detector just exploded.
Oh Noes! Look at what a mess you are! You need a shower, stat. You need any help with that soap?
this is
another trap.
Cause it's dirty up in there, reaaaalll dirty.
They never miss an oppurtunity for a road trip:
WBC will picket the TicketCity Bowl between Penn State and Houston University to remind this nation that God Hates america and sends raping coaches as a curse for this nation's rebellion.
God also hates anyone who raises, handles, plays with, and consumes pork.
Wait wait wait wait wait.
The pedophile raping coach is part of the punishment? Not part of the sins for which the US is being puninshed?
Ok now my total-nutjob detector has also exlpoded. It's sitting beside my burned out bullshit detector, smoking gently. The fire warden is very unhappy.
Zen, you have to understand WBC's business plan. They are all lawyers. They don't give a fuck about religion. They say the most offensive things they can think of, to piss off the most people possible, in hopes of being personally attacked so they can sue. End of story.
The Freeh Report was released yesterday, and the news seemed to focus
exclusively on damning Paterno more than the 3 administrators of the university.
News articles referred to emails as the damning evidence, but did not print/post them.
I tried various sources to download the PDF file of the Freeh Report, but was unsuccessful.
Today, the NY Times has put the Freeh Report on line
here.
Spanier - looks to be a jerk, which was what my first impression of him was.
Paterno comes out looking pretty bad too.
Sad for the families, really sad.
Classic, it's entirely possible I'm missing it.
But have you or anyone else come across "smoking gun" email(s)
or evidence that serves to put so much blame on Paterno ?
I'm not a fan of any coach or any particular school,
but my first reaction on hearing about this Report was
"Yeah sure, blame the dead guy."
Despite Paterno being the "Great God of Football", it seems to me,
his job was not to actually do the investigation of Sandusky.
I've read that he turned the matter over to his superiors,
and he did later inquire about the status of the investigation.
To me, that seems proper for a faculty member in such an organization, even a GGofF.
(I found one email where one of the Administrators says he talked with coach (Paterno).
Was there not anything more than this ?
.
i was reading an article - i forget where, now - where "legal experts" were nearly unanimous that given the report, paterno would DEFINITELY have been charged/indicted if he were still alive.
Despite Paterno being the "Great God of Football", it seems to me, his job was not to actually do the investigation of Sandusky.
I was asking this question back in 1999. I was struck by Sandusky leaving and Paterno not. OK. Sandusky was looking for a college to become head coach. He never got it. Even Juniata College did not want him (only learned that a decade plus later).
So, we know Paterno had reported/discussed these allegations in 1998. By 1999, Sandusky was somehow removed from the program apparently after a conversation with Paterno (according to the reports back then). Why? It was strange then. And only stranger (still unknown) now.
Paterno quietly undermines Sandusky's future as (head) coach anywhere,
while the Administration gives him a golden parachute "retirement"
Who's not going to be happy... as long as it does not become public ?
Yes tw, I could easily believe that Sandusky's "retirement" came out of just such machinations.
.
The District Attorney decided not to bring charges against Sandusky in '98, so that was a dead end. They had no other choice other than excommunicate him from Penn State.
They had no other choice other than excommunicate him from Penn State.
But did they? And if they did, then that also should be in the report - that claims to be comprehensive.
They did from his job, except they didn't take a way his keys or free entrance to games.
Does anyone have any extra rolls of pretty wall-paper ?
If so, mail them to the Penn State University right away.
SportsIllustrated.com
Associated Press
July 13,2012
Penn State to renovate areas where Sandusky abused boys
STATE COLLEGE, Pa. (AP) -- Penn State plans to renovate the building where
former assistant football coach Jerry Sandusky sexually molested boys,
confronting one of the most potent and sinister symbols of a scandal from which it is still trying to recover.
The school intends to remodel the football team shower and locker room area
as a direct result of Sandusky's crimes, university spokesman David La Torre
told The Associated Press on Friday.<snip>
The disclosure of Penn State's remodeling plans came as the school weighs
how to deal with the ubiquitous imagery associated with the scandal.
Besides the Lasch building, there's the bronzed statue of Paterno
and the library that's named after him, as well as a downtown mural
depicting the Hall of Fame coach and ousted Penn State President Graham Spanier.
Reminders of the Sandusky scandal, and the senior school officials
accused of covering it up, are all over Penn State's campus and State College.
<snip>
This SI article goes on to discuss several other such statues, murials,
memorials, buildings around campus and the town.
But none of that goes to the heart of the matter...
The power of football was the over-riding force that prodded the school officials to act as they did.
Some are proposing the football program be shut down completely.
Some are proposing to drop the football program for only one or two years
Some are expecting disqualification via the Athletic Association.
I've read the income to PennState from football is on the order of $72 million annually.
The current students and players benefit from the sports program.
The school benefits from its reputation and alumni donations
The town benefits from the $ spent by those attending the games.
But what about the boys that were abused ???
Are they not entitled to $ damages for their suffering ?
I suggest a "devil's compromise"
... where no one wins and everyone loses (something).
1) Penn State shuts down the football program for one or two years.
AND
2) The abused boys agree to NOT accept any $ won in civil litigation.
AND
3) I'm sure there are some charities in the area that could benefit
from the $ donated by fans, alumni, attorneys, DA's, law enforcement, etc.
Well, they could learn a lesson or two from
Kent State.
In 1990, twenty years after the shootings, a memorial commemorating the events of May 4 was dedicated on the campus on a 2.5 acre (10,000 m²) site overlooking the University's Commons where the student protest took place.[57] Even the construction of the monument became controversial and, in the end, only 7% of the design was constructed. The memorial itself does not contain the names of those killed or wounded in the shooting; under pressure, the university agreed to install a plaque near it with the names.[58][59]
I don't think pretty wallpaper will do the job.
2) The abused boys agree to NOT accept any $ won in civil litigation.
Why would they agree to that? I wouldn't. It solves nothing.
I'm in a mood to raze the place. The rot goes too deep.
Former Pennsylvania Attorney General and current Governor and ex-officio member of the Penn State Board of Trustees Tom Corbett said,
"History will judge all of us." History?? It won't take that long, Tom.
Wallpaper?
I think you mean "whitewash".
Quick, cover up the cover up!
Why would they agree to that? I wouldn't. It solves nothing.
I'm in a mood to raze the place. The rot goes too deep.
<snip>
I understand the mood, but AFAIK the rot lies only in the actions of 5 men.
The boys (now men) would see that the entire community also suffers
for what happened to them... and maybe to others we don't know about.
What amount of $ could show that.
You really think those five men were the only ones who knew and didn't speak up because they were afraid it would harm the football program, or the university, or both?
Big-time athletics is rotting American education from High School on up. Binghamton University has been trying to break into the big time in NCAA Division I basketball with similar results to Penn State's, corruption that extends into government because these are state schools.
Does anyone have any extra rolls of pretty wall-paper ?
Did you mean toilet paper? There should be plenty of trustees - especially Frazier - who need it.
I've read the income to PennState from football is on the order of $72 million annually.
Penn State is one of only a few schools that earn a profit from their football program. I believe the number is less than five schools.
I suggest a "devil's compromise"
... where no one wins and everyone loses (something).
You mean shut down the entire school for two years because management and the trustees did not do their job? So let's punish the students. After all, they also did not say anything.
Rumor has it that 85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management. In response, the trustees decided to shorten their terms from 15 years to 12 years.
A curious sidebar. As that report was being read on cable channels throughout campus, the campus cable controller decided to switch that channel to a PA access channel. Cutting off the report as Penn State students were listening.
<snip>
You mean shut down the entire school for two years because
management and the trustees did not do their job? So let's punish the students.
After all, they also did not say anything.
<snip
No, my suggestion was:
1) Penn State shuts down the football program for one or two years.
2)...
3)...
And yes, the current students and football players etc. would/should suffer.
Maybe they did not "say" anything, but everyone contributed to the overwhelming
football atmosphere at PSU, which, in turn, set the stage for these specific events.
That is, the students, and faculty, and townspeople benefited from that atmosphere.
.
So you're saying all 96,000+ students at Happy Valley and 23 satellite campuses are to blame?
So you're saying all 96,000+ students at Happy Valley and 23 satellite campuses are to blame?
I don't know the numbers, and they don't particularly matter.
The public rage, anger, and outcry we see now will be short-lived
Killing the PSU football (or any other) program outright would just antagonize everyone.
Making believe that only 5 particular men were the only problem just antagonizes everyone too.
I'd rather see the football program shut down for a year or two,
and then come back with an improved attitude on the part of students,
staff, faculty, administration, trustees... and perhaps most importantly, the alumni.
While I do believe there are going to be civil law suits on behalf of the abused boys,
and there will be $ awards to them by the courts, and their attorneys will get part of those awards,
I don't believe the $, by itself, will go very far towards such solving problems
as the boys/men may have now.
I believe public sympathy, regret, and acceptance of responsibility by everyone else
would do more good for them and for any others we don't already know about.
So you're saying all 96,000+ students at Happy Valley and 23 satellite campuses are to blame?
Wow. I feel so guilty. To think I was wasting time blaming the Catholic Church for protecting pedophiles. I must have been so wrong.
So where does one draw the line ?
Who else knew throughout the university, and the city, and the state ?
Should the university or law enforcement set about ferreting them out for punishment ?
What punishment ?
Are people seriously trying to say that losing a year or two
of the football season is cruel and unusual punishment ?
Is the odds line on PSU that important ?
Who else knew throughout the university, and the city, and the state ?
Damn few. This happened ten years ago, 99% of the students weren't even there. Only a handful knew at the time. How in hell would anybody else know? Do you think the higher ups responsible were telling people? No this is 100% top management this time.
So how do we break the corrupting culture of Penn State football? The game is so important that sex abuse was swept under the rug. They need to realign their priorities down there. The boosters are still the same people. I say death penalty for the program like SMU got years ago. Wipe the slate clean and discuss whether to bring it back, because right now football is more important than students, academics, and the community.
Damn few. This happened ten years ago, 99% of the students weren't even there. Only a handful knew at the time. How in hell would anybody else know? Do you think the higher ups responsible were telling people? No this is 100% top management this time.
The janitors knew. They knew, and didn't say anything for fear of their jobs. You really think none of the students (at the time I mean) in the football program knew? Was it widespread knowledge? No, but clearly more than the top management knew.
So you're saying all 96,000+ students at Happy Valley and 23 satellite campuses are to blame?
Wow. I feel so guilty. To think I was wasting time blaming the Catholic Church
for protecting pedophiles. I must have been so wrong.
TW, I did get a jolt and smile from your post... a sort of "Yeah, you got me" reaction.
You're completely right in your blame of the Church for protecting pedophiles.
But somehow, even hours after I read your post,
I felt that although your light sarcasm carried truth,
that there was/is a difference between the two situations.
I now think that difference is this...
With regards to the church, it was individual Bishops and Vatican
that were protecting the pedophilic members of the Clery.
In doing so, they were inflicting the evil on their local congregations...
which, in some instances were already knowing the pedophile and asking for relief.
With regards to PSU, it was the
entire local community that
was supporting (and fostering) the atmospheric mania for football,
and placing their local heroes, Paterno
and Sandusky, on their community's coaching pedestal.
Does that come close to describing the difference ?
I wonder if Paterno's priest said it was cool?
So how do we break the corrupting culture of Penn State football? The game is so important that sex abuse was swept under the rug. They need to realign their priorities down there. The boosters are still the same people. I say death penalty for the program like SMU got years ago. Wipe the slate clean and discuss whether to bring it back, because right now football is more important than students, academics, and the community.
Why is this about Penn State football? What makes you think they weren't trying to protect the reputation of the school and their jobs?
The English Dept. looks clean so far.
They were protecting the rep and jobs. Thing is Penn State created the illusion that you could have Div I football and stay squeaky clean. That lie is over now so what is the next step?
With regards to PSU, it was the entire local community that was supporting (and fostering) the atmospheric mania for football,
You are confusing other Division 1 football with Penn State. Penn State did something that most Division 1 schools would never do. Education was more important. That was Joe and his philosophy.
In Oklahoma, girls would even take long routes around dorms that housed football players. Because sexual harrassment was all but condoned by the Oklahoma coaching staff and therefore by the university administration. Major difference between the two schools.
What makes all this shocking is that Joe would even suspend major players for not maintaining their studies. Joe Paterno was something unique in Division 1 football. Academics and social responsiblity were required of his teams. That was not true in places such as the University of Miami.
Why is Joe's name on the main campus library? His reputation and team requirements. Making Penn State's graduation rates some of the highest in Division 1 football.
Whereas few in Penn State knew of the pedophilia, in the Catholic Church everyone knows the church was protecting pedophiles. Knew it for something less than 20 years. Lynn Abraham in Philadelphia did what no other district attorney in the US was doing. She subpoenaed a list of pedophiles directly from the Archdioceses records after the church denied such records existed. Ten years later, even Pennsylvania legislators refused to change pedophile laws. To make prosecution possible. Worse, the church did absolutely nothing for another ten years to address a problem that every Catholic knew existed.
Very few in Penn State knew of the pedophilia. In the last decade, only a liar would dney pedophilia was a problem everywhere in the Catholic Church.
On the same day that Sandusky was convicted, monsignor Lynn of the Philadelphia Archdioceses was also convicted of protecting pedophiles. He was the top man in charge of this issue. All Philadelphia Cardinals knew of the problem; had a pretty good idea how widely the problem existed. And did nothing. But they did ban Voices of the Faithful from church properties because they demanded reponsible action.
From that trial, we know most if not every Philadelphia bishop and Cardinal had lists of known pedophiles. And still reassigned those priests to locations where kids would be at risk.
We can suspect that Paterno had Sandusky all but removed from the program in 1999 due to what Paterno had heard in 1998. But the Catholic Church all but openly encouraged pedophile priests. Did absolutely nothing for decades involving hundreds of pedophiles modesting probably tens of thousands of kids.
One known pedophile priest was assigned to a home for teenage boys - St Gabriels. Sister Strange, also at that home, reported to the archdiocese that this priest was still things sexually unacceptable. So the church fired Sister Strange. Did Penn State fire McQueary for reporting pedophilia?
What happened in Penn State was bad. What the church did should be prosecuted as racketeering. The Church knew of hundreds or thousands of pedophiles. Protected them. And put them back in locations where those priests would be fully in contact with kids. The church is even protecting some 35 accused priests who fled from the US for prosecution of pedophilia. How many pedophiles is Penn State protecting?
The current Pope openly decided to ignore pedophilia when confronted by most of this nation's Cardinals who flew to Rome in mass to ask for action. Those that should like an honest institution?
Maybe we should banned Notre Dame, Holy Cross, and Villanova from football for two years due to a Pope that has clearly protected pedophiles. How many thousand pedophile priests have been reassigned to institutions where they would constantly be in contact with kids? Yes, not hundreds. Thousands. Proabably tens of thousands. View those numbers! Penn State has one. The church has how many thousands?
<snip>Maybe we should banned Notre Dame, Holy Cross, and Villanova
from football for two years due to a Pope that has clearly protected pedophiles.<snip>
I won't argue and probably agree with all you've said about about
the failed responsibilities of the Church. But that last part is a non sequitur.
First, as I've posted earlier in this thread, I am feeling Parterno carries
less
responsibility or fault than the administrators above him in this case.
But it seems that most pundits are saying that it was the football mania
that was the driving force at PSU, regardless of the academic esteem
that Paterno is credited with installing among his teams.
I can almost make a case that the root problem in the Vatican's actions comes
out a basic premise of the Catholic religion... confession and repenting.
So as long as a pedophile clergyman has "confessed and repented",
the church would find it necessary to adhere to "go forth and sin no more".
What I'm trying to argue is that the "football mania" was the root cause
of Sandusky getting away with his evil actions for such a long time.
But in the Catholic Church, as inexcusible as it is, the root cause
was an unintended consequence of a basic premise of their religion.
But maybe it's all a distinction without a difference...
What I'm trying to argue is that the "football mania" was the root cause of Sandusky getting away with his evil actions for such a long time.
You cannot ignore numbers. 85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management. Management was more worried about their power. Their legacy. Their image. If the English Department had a squeaky clean image, the powers that be (ie Spanier, et al) would have done same. Because they - not football - was the problem.
Completely irresponsible is to blame the uninformed (ie university) for one pedophile case. And not demand the same violent revenge against the Catholic Church that has been doing this and worse by the thousands to tens of thousands. That is simply a double standard that no one has the right to uphold.
Worse, every Catholic knows this has been ongoiing. And did not get angry when Voices of the Faithful were saying so. Voices were even banned by the Church for only being honest. Every Catholic knows pedophilia was ongoing - and did almost nothing. Thereby all but endorsing pedophilia.
You would punish the teams and student body for what scumbag management (many from Wall Street) did? But you would forgive the entire Catholic Church for ignoring that church leaders openly did this for generations? Nonsese. The Church has a long history of Spanish Inquisitions when others are guilty of misdemenors. Why is the Church forgiven for tens of thousands of felonies?
No non sequitur here. If you make victims of the innocent in Penn State. Then you must also make victims the innocent in Notre Dame, Villanova, and Holy Cross and all Catholic High Schools. Their institutions had many more criminal priests. The crime was well known. The Pope and Cardinals did nothing. So we punish the little people? Punish the innocent?
The problem is directlyl traceable to top management. We should be beheading them all in the tradition of the church.
Church is guilty of pedophilia at the *racketeering* level. Penn State had one pedophile. Punishing all Catholics and Catholic schools (high school and college) is equivalent to punishing Penn State students and sport teams.
All Catholics knew pedophilia existed and was permitted. Most did nothing. Virtually no Penn State faculty, teams, and students knew anything about the only pedophile. So we punish them. Sound like another Spanish Inquistion to me.
So how do we break the corrupting culture of Penn State football? The game is so important that sex abuse was swept under the rug. They need to realign their priorities down there. The boosters are still the same people. I say death penalty for the program like SMU got years ago. Wipe the slate clean and discuss whether to bring it back, because right now football is more important than students, academics, and the community.
I'd say it wasn't about football, per se, it was about (surprise) MONEY.
You would punish the teams and student body for what scumbag management (many from Wall Street) did?
"punish" is an odd choice of words.
What punishment would the "teams and students" incur ?
... No ice cream for you today, young man !
I heard one sports pundit positing that when the football program is suspended,
the current players would be given a free pass to move to any other school without penalty.
That is, PSU would continue to provide their current scholarship benefits.
As for the athletic department(s), maybe such a loss of $ would open more eyes in the future.
And for the football fanatic alumni... Get a life.
.
What punishment would the "teams and students" incur ?
Players and students who had no knowledge of one pedophile must pick up and move somewhere else? Start all over again. Go from a school that also educates their football players to some other school that doesn't?
No problem. Catholics, who knew their church was condoning and protecting pedophiles, can be forced to pick up and move to some other church. No more services in any Catholic Church for two years. That's fair. You said that is not punishment? After all, it is all about the money? We (and news pundits) are only discussing who should be punished.
Everyone in the Church (including parishioners) knew of pedophile activity for over a decade. And did nothing (except a minority such as Voices of the Faithful who were punished for being honest). At least people who were guilty by association (or after the fact) would be punished by being forced to worship in some other venue. According to your Penn State example, parishioners force to worship elsewhere is also fair.
Pedophilia at Penn State is near zero. One person. Pedophilia in the Catholic Church is akin to racketeering - felonies by the thousands - maybe more. So we punish the innocent at Penn State for one pedophile? And protect an entire institution that condoned tens of thousands of felony counts? That is justice?
No matter how you spin it, it is a double standard if the Church does not incur massively more punishment. If any institution is punished for pedophilia, the worst offender - the Catholic Church - should be #1 on your list.
Name any other institution that so blatantly and offensively protected and encouraged pedophiles? Not a rhetorical question. To have an informed opinion means that question must be answered.
The church is protecting 35 accused pedophiles from American justice. Is Penn State?
If players and students in Penn State are punished, then so should every practicing Catholic. After all, all Catholics KNEW of the pedophilia for over a decade. Players and students at Penn State did not.
When do we bring the Pope to Geneva for his crimes against humanity? After all he knew about it and did nothing - both as a Pope and before as the Cardinal in charge of such problems. That makes him a kingpin. Or, like at Penn State, we should punish the parishioners because their church is a felonious racketeer? Parishioners knew about it - and did nothing. Practicing Catholics are more guilty than Penn State players and students. When was a double standard for justice acceptable? Show us an institution more guilty than the Catholic Church. Good luck.
every Catholic knows this has been ongoing. And did not get angry when Voices of the Faithful were saying so.
Not true. Not "every" one knew.
Every Catholic knows pedophilia was ongoing - and did almost nothing. Thereby all but endorsing pedophilia.
Really? You must be Catholic then. I got a totally different take on it. Most that I know are embarrassed, pissed off and many
MANY have stopped going and/or donating to the church.
Apparently, the statue of Joe Parterno is going to remain at PSU,
but that may not be the end of the story about memorials to him.
This is an NY Times editorial that I believe is well worth reading in it's entirety.
But if you really don't want to do that, here are the last 2 paragraphs.
NY Times Editorial
By TA-NEHISI COATES
July 17, 2012
Leave the Statue, to Remember
<snip>
[COLOR="LemonChiffon"]Arguing for the statue’s removal, the legendary coach Bobby Bowden said
he wouldn’t want Sandusky’s crimes “brought up every time I walked out on the field.”
That’s the point.
Sandusky’s crimes should never be forgotten, nor should the crimes of the broader community.
It is shameful to deify men who put nationalist ritual before children.
But it is more shameful to pretend that this elevation was achieved by Joe Paterno’s singular hand.
Removing the Paterno statue allows Happy Valley to forget its own compliance
in a national crime, to expunge its own culpability in its ruthless pursuit of glory.
The statue should remain, and beneath it there should be a full explanation
of Sandusky’s crimes, Paterno’s role and some warning to all of us
who would turn a pastime into a god and elect a mortal man as its avatar.[/COLOR]
Eventually Rocky's statue got removed from the steps of the Philadelphia Art Museum. Paterno's statue will probably be moved in time.
Eventually, Paterno will be remembered for his football. Currently everyone only remembers hype that will diminish over the years.
I won't remember Paterno at all 5 years from now. Unless someone reminds who he is.
Victims? Project Mayhem?
Step one. Statue is now
gone.
Little-Loved Statue May Be Exiled to a Brooklyn Cemetery
No, not Paterno... but maybe they could keep each other company.
Step one. Statue is now gone.
Kinda torn. It could have served as a reminder of what happened.
Leading to why and the mistakes that were made. Perhaps a deterrent of sorts...???
Then again, perhaps not. I'm kinda glad its gone. In the long run its probably for the best.
There is more to this article, but these are the first few paragraphs
Additional penalties probably will also be announced by NCAA
Chicago Tribune
By Chris Dufresne, Tribune Newspapers
7:36 p.m. CDT, July 22, 2012
Paterno statue comes down a day before NCAA's hammer
Penn State removed the statue of former coach Joe Paterno outside Beaver Stadium
on Sunday in advance of NCAA sanctions that could cripple the football program for years.
The NCAA, a methodical and procedural organization not known for tipping its investigative hand,
has scheduled a Monday morning news conference at which it stated it will levy
"corrective and punitive measures" against the school in the wake of a child sex-abuse scandal
that led to the conviction of former assistant coach Jerry Sandusky.
The penalties will be disclosed at the organization's Indianapolis headquarters
by NCAA President Mark Emmert and Ed Ray, chairman of the NCAA's executive committee.
Multiple news agencies, including ESPN and Yahoo, reported that the penalties
would be "significant" and "staggering" and include a bowl ban and loss of scholarships,
but wouldn't require the school to shut down its famed program.
CBS News, quoting industry sources, reported Penn State would receive
"unprecedented" punishment for its role in the scandal,
including a fine of at least $30 million to perhaps as much as $60 million.
CBS reported the fine would go toward an endowment for children's causes.
<snip>
Kinda torn. It could have served as a reminder of what happened.
Leading to why and the mistakes that were made. Perhaps a deterrent of sorts...???
Then again, perhaps not. I'm kinda glad its gone. In the long run its probably for the best.
Step one. Statue is now gone.
I've heard two good suggestions, recently, about what should be done with the statue.
One was to put it inside the library, with full disclosure of his complicity.
The second was to leave it where it was, but rotate it and put children "behind" him, showing how he "turned his back" on the victims.
As with any person, Joe was not entirely good or entirely evil. He did a whole lot of good for people and Penn State, and he enabled a child sexual predator to continue his despicable actions. Joe has become the scape goat. What I want is for others to be held responsible, as well, and not just Curley and Spanier. What will be done to the statues of Tom Corbett, the investigators/prosecutors who didn't indict Sandusky, and all the others responsible for his being free all those years.
Yrp - Joe has become the scapegoat, rightfully deserved or not.
Its far easier to blame him now that he is dead, than to actually prosecute those who are still alive. Sickening all the way around.
The ban of his wins since '98 will take that record from him. Whoopdyfuckindoo.
Wow !
I posted earlier that I thought it was a "blame the dead guy" scenario,
but I changed my mind upon reading this one paragraph in Spexxvet's link ...
Emmert, speaking at a live press conference at the association's Indianapolis headquarters,
said Penn State had perpetrated a "football first" culture that ultimately enabled
a serial child abuser, former defensive coordinator Jerry Sandusky, to continue his crimes for years.
I wasn't insinuating that he was faultless, but it seems that the rest of the "leadership"
are not getting slammed anywhere near as much. I personally hope they all rot in prison.
Yrp - Joe has become the scapegoat, rightfully deserved or not.
Its far easier to blame him now that he is dead, than to actually prosecute those who are still alive. Sickening all the way around.
The ban of his wins since '98 will take that record from him. Whoopdyfuckindoo.
As Louis CK was saying on the Daily Show, there really isn't an "in-between" when it comes to pedophiles. You're either for it or against it, There's no one who says, "Yeah, I don't do it myself, but it's cool if other people are into that."
But, yeah, blame the dead guy. As though there was no one other than Paterno and Sandusky involved in the cover up? :rolleyes:
And the janitors who actually saw it and said nothing.
These are the incompetent assholes who are more responsible than everyone but Sandusky. If they'd done they're job,....
Understand what the trustees are doing. They are staying ahead of the scandal. Otherwise they would, in mass, be also found responsible.
For example, they rushed through the Freeh report that blamed Paterno only by implication. Without any explicit facts. Then they negotiated a deal with the NCAA so that the NCAA would not investigate. Meanwhile they are castigating Paterno (who cannot defend himself) and other obviously guilty people so that nobody will look any farther. Nobody will notice a board of trustees that need all investigations and facts to end before more is discovered. My god. The brother of the assisant Chairman lived in Sandusky's basement. And he still did not know?
This is a perfect example of a controlled avalanche so that nobody can get organized and learn the whole story. Exactly what any good PR person would have them do.
Penalties on the innocent are massive. But the trustees with their well protected 15 year terms will remain untainted. If we were to apply the same penalty to the Catholic Church (that openly protected and all but condoned pedophilia), then the fines would be on the order of something less than $1 trillion. And no church services for four years.
Sandusky was dismissed from the Penn State atheltic program in 1998. But trustees and management permitted him access to campus facilities after 1998. So all Penn State accomplishments after 1998 (by other innocent people) must now be quashed from the record.
Meanwhile, Sandusky's wife who also apparently knew of the pedophilia, is also getting off without charges.
What kind of deal did the trustees rush through? One that punishes everyone except the trustees. Does that not sound suspicious? 85% of all problems are directly traceable to who? Or is that whom?
And no church services for four years.
Show that one to anybody who says The Cellar doesn't come up with any new ideas. ;)
.
Show that one to anybody who says The Cellar doesn't come up with any new ideas. ;)
An old idea. It was posted maybe a week ago. "Current Events" means last week was history.
Some immediate reaction thoughts:
Taxpayers subsidize Penn State, directly through funding and indirectly through student tuition programs. Fining the institution is fining taxpayers. The NCAA fines and the sure-to-come (and justified) civil penalties should be paid by the individuals responsible - administrators, board members, prosecutors, investigators, janitors, et al.
The NCAA penalties will hurt people well beyond the football program and the university. Local businesses are going to take a beating, when maybe 20,000 fewer people come to town 8 times a year.
The NCAA penalties will hurt people well beyond the football program and the university.
The Penn State football program as a first rate contender is done and over. SMU that received much less punishment never recovered. These penalties are designed to harm the football program. Only the trustees (and Sandusky's wife) are getting off easy.
The $60million penalty comes at the expense of Penn State's (31?) other varsity athletic programs. Trustees will see no harm to their budgets.
All Penn State scholarship players are open game for all other schools. For example, if a school is limited to only 60 scholarships and recruits two Penn State players. Then the school can have 62 recruited players on scholarship. The Penn State football program, one of the few profitable ones in college sports, will not recover. The trustees did absolutely nothing to protect it. Suggesting trustees were sacrificing the entire athletic department to not be tainted by this scandal and their decades of inaction.
Would the trustees have protected an honest janitor that reported pedophilia? Of course not. That was the problem.
And the tuition increases to cover the cost of the penalties will put even more students into deeper debt.
All blame for all of the fallout should ultimately rest on the shoulders of Sandusky himself. He made the choice to do what he did. Even when he was found out, he didn't decide to stop and continued for years.
After him, blame should rest on all those who saw, heard about, knew about what the pedo was doing - the janitors, Paterno, his wife, anyone else who walked in on him, talked to him about it, somehow knew about it and eventually chose self-preservation over stopping a known pedo.
All who are angry about the fine (whomever it affects), the loss of a (generally) good thing, the loss of local/small business economy, the sticky, tar black smear on the reputation, the sundering of hopes, dreams and ideals... they should not blame NCAA, they should not blame the media coverage, they should not blame the victims, they should not blame the trustees (unless they knew about it... I'm not quite clear on that). All of that is reaction, brought about by Sandusky's original actions.
They should directly blame Jerry "Uncle Touchy" Sandusky this and all those who knew and did nothing for the sake of keeping their job (janitors), keeping the stars in their eyes (authorities who knew but did not fully investigate), keeping the marketability and reputation of the football program profitable (Paterno), keeping themselves from being The One Who Exposed A Flaw At LEGENDARY PENN STATE (everyone else who knew).
Because without Sandusky's wandering hands and other bits, without the hushing and cover-ups and quiet deals, the institution of Penn State, its athletic program, faculty, alumni and fans would not be going through this now. If the authorities and the school had pursued this after the first child, Penn State could have held him up by the proverbial collar, gave a 'We found this rat in our midst and now we're kicking him out.' statement and threw him out with no parachute, and the aftermath image would have been 'They had this problem but they took care of it so it's all good.', instead of 'They had this problem, but they let it fester and grow like a cancer because they were afraid of the social implications and that's no good.'
My simple rules regarding cases like this:
If you knowingly harm a child - Die in a fire
If you know someone is harming a child and do nothing - Die in a fire
If you know someone is harming a child and only report it to your boss and not the police - Die in a fire
That should cover all involved.
Also...
If you know someone is harming a child, and you report it to the police and notice that charges have not been filed in a timely manner... set up a goddamn camera for next time, and give the footage to the press. Out-of-state press, if necessary. We live in a world where hard evidence is easy to procure.
Also...
If you know someone is harming a child, and you report it to the police and notice that charges have not been filed in a timely manner... set up a goddamn camera for next time, and give the footage to the press. Out-of-state press, if necessary. We live in a world where hard evidence is easy to procure.
um... no.
Respectfully, this Nancy Drew approach just means more damage. Letting a child be bait like this ranks as either your worst idea ever or your worst joke ever. I like you Clodfobble, but this one's a dud. If you didn't get the right response you know should happen from other professionals, say, doctors, you wouldn't wait for another meltdown or toxic toilet incident to be captured on camera like you describe.
Just go to the next doctor and hope for a non-idiot. There *are* people who care and who are effective when it comes to child welfare. And if you're one of them, and I know you are, just keep knocking until the right door opens. If you don't see action happening, file again, file with another agency, hell, call the press as you suggest. But don't wait for another crime to be committed against a child.
CyberWolf, thank you... that's extremely well-said and hits all the marks
http://www.cellar.org/showpost.php?p=821483&postcount=119Letting a child be bait like this ranks as either your worst idea ever or your worst joke ever.
How about setting up a camera while going around to different officials? Would you approve of that? That way, if it takes a couple months to find someone to take you seriously, and he strikes again, then you have solid proof this time.
I'm still upset that the authorities didn't take care of it in 1998.
Look, I'm not opposed to cameras. Really, I'm all into this YouTube generation and sh*t, yo. But what a waste of effort. What are you going to do with the camera? Pin it to his underwear? How can you do this, logically? Some of the crimes Sandusky was convicted of happened in the shower at the gym facility (I think, I did not follow the specific details very closely, but I remember hearing about "teaching the kids about hygiene, how to shower (wtf)). Are you thinking the camera should be monitoring the shower area? Locker rooms? You can see, I'm sure, that as appealing as video proof of this crime would be as a hammer to motivate the authorities the actual logistical details of doing this effectively are ... impossible.
Clodfobble's original wording might be my problem "If you know someone's harming a child..". I have a problem *right there*. If *I* know, I have an obligation to make it stop. I might not be the judge that pounds the gavel, or the jailer that turns the key, etc, but I have a crucial role in seeing to it that it stops and is taken care of. This USUALLY consists of reporting to the police, or to child protective services, or both. In my case, I have an additional obligation as a scouting leader to inform the leaders of my organization. I've never had to do this, thank god. But informing the parents would also be an option.
I don't think it's a very useful direction for the conversation to go from here into what if it was a parent harming? Or what if it was the scout leadership that was harming? Or what if it was the police officer, etc etc. These are all real, tragic scenarios. Not just possibilities, real examples, sadly. There are tons of others, and all of them could have exception this and counter example that, ad infinitum.
What **I** believe is best is a strategy that involves strengthening the kid's ability to defend themselves and to be comfortable reporting harm. This I believe is the best, not infallible, strategy to reduce the chance of harm and to reduce the harm. This kind of defense will be with the child, even if he's in camera range or not.
Just telling and leaving it at that could have lots of bad consequences. There's a senior church figure in PA (I think) that has just been convicted of doing too little to prevent harm to children. We've heard a lot in this thread about the accessory culpability of those around the perpetrator. Telling, not getting a response, then farting around with a camera seems a bit like that. Be more active. Get something done. If you want to drag your camera around with you while you're finding someone who can and will respond appropriately, by all means, record away. But passively sitting around watching my teddy-bear-cam for another molestation is wrong.
Lynn Abraham, Philadelphia's DA, made the problem obvious. She confiscated a list of over 100 known pedophiles only from the Philadelphia Archdiocese files. Had the list
published even in the Philadelphia Inquirer. Made it obvious that this was only one of many Archdiocese in the Philly area that openly protected their pedophiles. And still the Pennsylvania Legislature refused to make pedophile prosecution reasonably possible.
Why would anyone report pedophilia? McQuery did. Look what it got him? Condemnation by so many. A large lawyer bill.
Why would janitors not report what they saw? The Board of Trustees would have never protected whistle blowers. Why would anyone in PA in 1998 report such crimes? The PA government would not fix the laws even after is was proven - without doubt and a decade ago - that the Catholic Church was a major racketeering operation that protected pedophiles.
Again, just down the street from the Cellar is a Catholic home for boys called St Gabriel’s. Only two years ago, Sister Strange reported a known pedophile priest was still practicing sexual perversions there. What did the Church and the 'powers that be' do? Well the Church fired Sister Strange. And the local authorities did nothing.
This was only two years ago. How much greater was the contempt for such whistle blowers twelve years ago - in 1998? Come on folks. Why are the Board of Trustees rushing through condemnation of the lesser people (including one who is dead and cannot defend himself)? Otherwise you might learn what the attitude was among Penn State's trustees and clearly in the State Legislature. They rushed into an agreement with the NCAA that hurts everyone except the trustees and Mrs Sandusky.
If pedophilia was really a problem, then PA would have long ago prosecuted hundreds of Catholic priests for Pedophilia. Monsignor Lynn, who virtually made pedophilia possible and safe only in Philadelphia (that’s at least many hundreds of kids), only got three to six years. (PA has seven more archdioceses. Just across the river are another six in New Jersey.) Why such little sentence? PA made prosecution difficult. Maximum sentence is that little. Six years maximum for protecting hundreds of pedophiles even ten years after Lynn Abraham demonstrated the size of the problem?
Double standards. If the punishment of Penn State is that severe, the entire American Catholic Church, at minimum, should be under court supervised probation. Even the mafia does not protect pedophiles. But the Church did - with all but the blessing of the State Legislature.
Take it to your church thread.
I don't think it's a very useful direction for the conversation to go from here into what if it was a parent harming? Or what if it was the scout leadership that was harming? Or what if it was the police officer, etc etc. These are all real, tragic scenarios.
But that's the thing... if you know it's been reported to every university authority available, and also the police, and the
police have clearly engaged in the coverup... What can you do when you know the police are involved? That becomes some scary shit right there. You need the evidence to protect yourself, at that point.
Sure, you could maybe hang around the field until you see the kid you recognize, and follow them to their car to tell the parent what you saw going on. But you also have to consider the fact that the child obviously hasn't told the parent--or maybe they have, and the parent, sickeningly, brushed off the child's complaints. More than one parent still let their kids sleep over at Michael Jackson's place, after all. So say you tell the parent what you saw, and they say, "Is this true Jimmy?!" and Jimmy, embarrassed, or scared that the abuser is going to punish them, says, "Jeez, Mom! Of course not!"
And now you are labeled an offender yourself, for making up sick stories about kids and harassing their families. You are probably removed from your job, and have no chance at all of helping the kids who are still being hurt.
If you didn't get the right response you know should happen from other professionals, say, doctors, you wouldn't wait for another meltdown or toxic toilet incident to be captured on camera like you describe.
Have done, actually. More than once. Because there are situations where, without proof, it is just a fact that
no one is going to believe you. I had some idiot doctors actually challenge me to take video, because they were so certain I couldn't do so. I admit, I probably jump to the camera solution faster than normal people, precisely because of my experience with this sort of situation.
Of course you would want to continue working on other avenues, every avenue available to you, while you wait to catch something on footage. And realistically, putting a camera in the lockerroom showers is a very dangerous thing to do, for obvious reasons. You might have to, instead, keep your camera on your person, and when you see it happening again, whip it out then and start recording. Of course this all happened in the days before cameraphones, so options would have been different then, maybe even impossible. My point was, once you know the police are involved in covering up child abuse, you must proceed in a drastic and yet completely irrefutable manner.
Now, Paterno is being damned for putting football ahead of the well-being of minors.
In another thread, Griff made a remark about the Olympics I did not quite understood,
but regardless, it set of an emotion in me that brought me back to this thread.
In a previous Olympic event (Atlanta, 1996), the same kind of thing happened.
The Women's Gymnastics coach, Bela Karolyi, sacrificed the well-being of
one of his athletes in hopes of winning the gold medal,
by having her continue in her event while injured.
The situation was "critical"... only by this one young girl achieving a higher score
could the US team win the Women's Team Gymnastics gold medal.
Karolyi urged Karri Shuggs to take her second (last) run on the vault,
even though it was obvious she had been injured on her first run.
Bela Karolyi went on to be hailed as a great coach, but for me his was a betrayal of his first responsibility.
Since then, these memories come back to me when I see pictures of him at the Olympics.
I don't think Karolyi ever did "get it".
[YOUTUBE]fFn47a_Ny0Y[/YOUTUBE]
In another thread, Griff made a remark about the Olympics I did not quite understood,
but regardless, it set of an emotion in me that brought me back to this thread.
Which thread/comment?
I hadn't realized Karolyi used her that way.
Which thread/comment?
I hadn't realized Karolyi used her that way.
http://www.cellar.org/showpost.php?p=821986&postcount=9
This was the post I did not understand
... it was just my stream-of-consciousness thinking... maybe not at all connected
Karolyi urged Karri Shuggs to take her second (last) run on the vault, even though it was obvious she had been injured on her first run.
Bela Karolyi went on to be hailed as a great coach, but for me his was a betrayal of his first responsibility.
Did you read an interview with either the coach or Kerri that actually indicated this? Because my guess is, a horde of coaches, parents, and teammates could not have stopped Kerri from doing her second run. You don't get to be an athlete of that caliber by quitting when you've hurt yourself. (Not necessarily saying that's a good thing, it's just a true thing.)
Did you read an interview with either the coach or Kerri that actually indicated this?
Because my guess is, a horde of coaches, parents, and teammates
could not have stopped Kerri from doing her second run.
You don't get to be an athlete of that caliber by quitting when you've hurt yourself.
(Not necessarily saying that's a good thing, it's just a true thing.)
Yes, I personally remember a video of Kerri telling Karoyli she was hurt,
and asking Karoyli what to do. He told her to go ahead.
Here are two text accounts I found just by a simple Google search
based on "Karoyli tells Kerri Shrug"
ESPN
There is chaos on the sidelines. Strug's ankle is throbbing badly.
Her head is aching. Her teammates encourage her. The U.S. coaches look up at the scoreboard,
then over at the Russians doing the floor exercises.
The coaches can't compute quickly enough whether Strug even has to vault a second time,
on a sprained ankle, in order to guarantee the American women the gold medal.
Questions abound. Should the U.S. coaches hold Strug back from doing the second vault?
But what if she doesn't vault a second time and the Russians wind up winning?
[COLOR="DarkRed"]U.S. Coach Bela Karolyi walks over to the ailing Strug,
puts his arm around her and says softly, "Kerri, we need you to go one more time.
We need you one more time for the gold."[/COLOR]
Strug rises from the floor, removes the ice pack from her ankle and says a prayer:
"Please, God, help me make this vault." She's performed this vault more than a thousand times.
"I know I can do it one more time, injured ankle or not," she thinks to herself.
Karolyi helps Strug rise to her feet and helps her to the runway.
"This is the Olympics," she would say later the media.
"This is what you dream about from when you're 5 years old.
I wasn't going to stop."
NY Daily News
Mike Lupica
7/25/96
Bela's The Bully Boy Karolyi Mines Gold At Girls' Expense
ATLANTA The face of the Olympics, the face of women's gymnastics,
was not Kerri Strug running fiercely and bravely toward the vault,
running as if her life depended on these next moments, running on an ankle
ruined with pain at the Georgia Dome, running straight for the gold medal
for which she had traded away being a teenager.
The real face of the Olympics, of this sad sport, was Strug's personal coach,
Bela Karolyi, watching her. Karolyi did not care about the pain shooting up
from Strug's left ankle when she landed. He just cared that she landed.
[COLOR="DarkRed"]The medal was more important to Karolyi than Kerri Strug.
It was there in the Georgia Dome and on all the replays.
Karolyi is looking right through her, already looking to the top of the medal stand.
<snip>.
[/COLOR]
There is much more to the Daily News article, most all of it damning Karyoli.
There is much more to the Daily News article, most all of it damning Karyoli.
Depends on your point of view.
These are Olympians, and making sacrifices for their sport is what they do.
It paid off for her. I'm sure she would do it again. Sure he pushed her, but she needed pushing to reach her goal.
You can argue about parents who push their little kids into gymnastics in the first place. But once you choose that path, you need to stay focused on it. Especially when you are so close to your goal.
There was no guaranty she would do well if she did try.
Did he push her or tell her what was at stake and let her decide?
Since no one else has yet put 30 on this tread...
NY Times Editorial
The Sandusky Rape Verdict
Published: October 9, 2012
The case of Jerry Sandusky over the serial raping of young boys
while a coach in Penn State’s football program ended Tuesday as it began: in denial and delusion.
“In my heart, I know I did not do these alleged disgusting acts,” Mr. Sandusky said
in a call from the jailhouse to the Pennsylvania State radio station Monday night.
“My wife has been my only sex partner, and that was after marriage.”
Mr. Sandusky repeated the gist of that bloodcurdling statement on Tuesday before
Judge John Cleland of the Centre County Court in Pennsylvania, who sentenced him
to 30 to 60 years in prison on 45 convictions of raping, abusing
and assaulting 10 boys over many years.<snip>
Previously
reported in NY Times...
“I’m not going to sentence you to centuries,” Judge Cleland said to Sandusky.
“It makes no sense for a 68-year-old man.
This sentence will put you in prison for the rest of your life.”
Judge Cleland added that the case, which shook Penn State and called into question
the role of major college sports on campus, was, in the end, “a story of betrayal.”
“You abused the trust of those who trusted you,” he said.
30
I guess it was only 29.5...
Reuters
1019/12
Ex-Penn State coach Sandusky appeals child sex convictions
(Reuters) - Former Penn State football coach Jerry Sandusky appealed
his child sex abuse convictions on Thursday, with his lawyers arguing
they lacked time to prepare for the high-profile case.
Sandusky's attorneys also asked that the convictions be tossed out or
a new trial be held because prosecutors lacked evidence to convict him
and statutes of limitations had run out.
Statues of limitations have a place, but not in sex abuse cases against kids.
Kind of makes me wonder if he's so fucked up he really thinks he's innocent.
Some stories and events never die...
ESPN's Keith Olbermann eviscerates Penn State
USA Today
Nick Schwartz
1/17/15
“In short the NCAA says that in exchange for an agreement that the $60 million dollars the school was fined will be spent only in Pennsylvania to address child abuse there, the 112 wins that had been stricken from the records of the school — including the 111 wins erased from the record of coach Joe Paterno, all the victories after the first time police were called by a parent about Sandusky showering with their child and Penn State’s damnable coverup really began — all those victories will now be restored and Paterno will again become the winningest coach in major college football history, because of course, he was the real victim here.
<snip>
It is hard to believe that the NCAA and the school could take the most nauseating, the most horrifying, the most indefensible institutionalization of corruption in American sports — the Jerry Sandusky scandal — and make it worse, but today they just did.”
Agreed. They just made it worse. Let's have another fight over this, shall we? Let's revisit the whole thing, revisit the victims, the parents, the coaches, the students, let's just focus on nothing else for no good reason and see if that makes everything better.
Is he pissed because PA taxpayers are not on the hook to pay for child abuse programs in Connecticut?