Wall Street Protests

New York City Police Foundation — New York

JPMorgan Chase recently donated an unprecedented $4.6 million to the New York City Police Foundation. The gift was the largest in the history of the foundation and will enable the New York City Police Department to strengthen security in the Big Apple. The money will pay for 1,000 new patrol car laptops, as well as security monitoring software in the NYPD's main data center.

New York City Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly sent CEO and Chairman Jamie Dimon a note expressing "profound gratitude" for the company's donation.

"These officers put their lives on the line every day to keep us safe," Dimon said. "We're incredibly proud to help them build this program and let them know how much we value their hard work."

Perry Winkle;760409 wrote:

These folks are all such children they act sheepish even calling it the "N word."

We work in solidarity with the determined souls on Wall Street and across the country in standing as the PEOPLE to demand responsible, fair governanace. We advocate for, no, DEMAND,the separation of finance and government in no less uncertain terms than the separation of Church and State. For too long, the interests of business have drowned out the voice of the citizenry. NO MORE. We are not Left. We are not Right. WE are the 99%... and we WILL prevail.

Perry Winkle;760409 wrote:

The image is fake. It's not even taken in the right place.

I wish the Occupy Wall Street message was more clear. I really want them to accomplish something good.

TheMercenary;760676 wrote:

Protesters were warned of pending arrest...

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/cops_rally_cry_we_warned_em_LYPb24dMtyy8nOgYSN4fJJ

glatt;760733 wrote:

I've been around cops doing crowd control before. One thing I can tell you is that they don't communicate consistently with the crowd. You very well could have had some cops saying that the protestors could go on the bridge, and other cops saying they couldn't and that they would be arrested if they didn't leave. A bullhorn is very loud when you are standing right next to it, but if you are 100 feet away and surrounded by a chanting crowd, that same bullhorn will be completely unintelligible.

TheMercenary;760741 wrote:

Good points, but the people at the front, near the bridge who begin the masses moving, as a heard of cows move, had no doubt that what they were about to do would lead to arrest.

ZenGum;760876 wrote:

Because of this power imbalance, wealth has been and is being redistributed toward the very rich, to the great detriment of the rest of the population and to the economy itself.

Spexxvet;760438 wrote:

Why are they children? I think they are showing consideration, you offay mother fucking cracker. Go back to Europe, where you came from. ;)

just walked past city hall: inside is blocked and gated with seven or so cops inside. east side is completely barricaded off with metal bar barricades. west side (fountain side) is wide open and empty of cops, though the homeless have remained camped out there. north side has three or so media trucks with satellites ready to broadcast and cameras being set up now. cop cars are circling (saw two police vans) and a couple cop cars are parked inside the barricade on the east side (where more police are walking beat). i spoke with one officer-- he said they had extra barricades to ready block the west side depending on how things went tomorrow; he was very unclear about what that meant, though he said it's of course legal for us to assemble.

TheMercenary;761052 wrote:

Not one damm unified group but a bunch of wacko extremists (think tw) who have no clue as to why the person next to them are there.

TheMercenary;761052 wrote:

Not one damm unified group but a bunch of wacko extremists who have no clue as to why the person next to them are there.

classicman;761069 wrote:

Did they start to cover them yet? I was flipping channels and while CNN and PMSNBC both had coverage, Faux had squat. (I had to tell my parents what it was earlier this week) :/

During the day, unions and students joined the demonstrators. What was once a protest of powerful Wall Street financial firms and banks is growing into a larger movement about the working class, employment, poverty, education, and more.

TheMercenary;761052 wrote:

Really, Wall Street needs to turn off the lights and see who fails first...

SamIam;761216 wrote:

@Classic - NPR has been giving some pretty good coverage. "Occupy Wall Street" was their lead story last night.

Stormieweather;761191 wrote:

Well at least one faux news crew was on wall street last night...

Breaking News

Undertoad;761237 wrote:

[size=1]similarly "Koch" is pronounced "Coke" and not "cock". that is all[/size]

TheMercenary wrote:

I think the best thing that can happen at this point is for all of the people on Wall Street to walk off the job in protest at the protests and shut down trading on the international markets for a week and see who suffers first....

Undertoad;761237 wrote:

I'm so sorry -- but I always find the snark "faux news" to be stupid, because "faux" is pronounced "foh", with a long o.

Undertoad;761237 wrote:

I'm so sorry -- but I always find the snark "faux news" to be stupid, because "faux" is pronounced "foh", with a long o.

TheMercenary;761052 wrote:

I love how this has turned into something akin to the WTO protests. Not one damm unified group but a bunch of wacko extremists (think tw) who have no clue as to why the person next to them are there.

[Mayor Sam] Adams also met up with the march and walked alongside protesters
for a block or so as they passed City Hall.
Later, city officials forbade the occupation of Schrunk [Plaza] and threatened arrest,
but conceded that the demonstrators could remain in Lownsdale overnight.

Mayor Mike McGinn on Thursday said protesters could have an "organizing tent" that could remain overnight, but said protesters would have to allow the park to be cleaned and promise to protect park property while allowing others access to businesses.

McGinn also said the city would allow protesters to stay overnight at City Hall Plaza, with "reasonable restrictions" on tents so that people could use the plaza during the day. City Hall has restrooms, he noted, while Westlake doesn't.

Protesters would be allowed to use the plaza for two weeks, the mayor said.

The labor leaders threw their support behind the Occupy Seattle movement Thursday, boosting morale a day after 25 protesters were arrested. Top union members visited Westlake to let protesters know they share a similar view: The economy isn't fair and more jobs are needed.

"It's their movement, but it's our message," said Kathy Cummings, a spokeswoman for the Washington State Labor Council, which represents 750 local unions.

The labor group also has asked members to drop off bottled water and ready-to-eat packaged foods at the council's office, Cummings said.

Perry Winkle;760983 wrote:

The example you directed at me is completely different than the case we're talking about. They are reporters. They are reporting a fact. They aren't calling anyone names.

I've read a few European newspapers. In my experience they tend to actually use offensive words when that's the fact of what was said or posted. I admire cultures that are mature enough to face facts.

Also, saying "N word" is not meaningfully different than saying "nigger" to me. It's still invoking an offensive (in the context) word.

If they wanted to be considerate they wouldn't specify which racial epithet was part of the place name. Saying something like "... a place name containing a racial epithet ..." is sufficiently descriptive while truly being removed from a word that is offensive in the first order.

I would prefer it if they'd just use the word without varnishing it.

Sound the call for freedom boys, and sound it far and wide,
March along to victory, for God is on our side,
While the voice of nature thunders o'er the rising tide:
"God gave the land to the people."

Chorus

The land, the land,
'Twas God who made the land,
The land, the land,
The ground on which we stand,
Why should we be beggars
With a ballot in our hand?
God gave the land to the people.

Hark! The sound is spreading from the east and from the west!
Why should we work hard and let the landlords take the best?
Make them pay their taxes on the land just like the rest!
The land was meant for the people.

Chorus

Clear the way for liberty, the land must all be free,
None of us shall falter from the fight tho' stern shall be.
'Til the flag we love so well shall fly from sea to sea,
O'er the land that is free for the people.

Chorus

The army now is marching on, the battle to begin,
The standard now is raised on high to face the battle din,
We'll never cease from fighting 'til the victory we win,
And the land is free for the people.

Perry Winkle;760983 wrote:

Also, saying "N word" is not meaningfully different than saying "nigger" to me. It's still invoking an offensive (in the context) word.

If they wanted to be considerate they wouldn't specify which racial epithet was part of the place name. Saying something like "... a place name containing a racial epithet ..." is sufficiently descriptive while truly being removed from a word that is offensive in the first order.

I would prefer it if they'd just use the word without varnishing it.

Some ‘Occupy Sacramento’ Protesters Lash Out At Questions
October 7, 2011 12:24 AM

SACRAMENTO (CBS13) — Hundreds of protesters gathered in Cesar Chavez Park on Thursday
to stand in solidarity with the growing nationwide demonstrations
aimed at corporate greed,
but some members of the peaceful event showed hostility
to media members over basic questions about the goals of the protest.
<snip>

A liberal organizer told the Daily Caller on Thursday afternoon that he paid some Hispanics to attend &#8220;Occupy DC&#8221; protests happening in the nation&#8217;s capital.

TheDC attended the protest event, an expansion of the &#8220;Occupy Wall Street&#8221; movement that began in New York City. Some aspects of the protest, it turned out, are more Astroturf than grassroots.

One group of about ten Hispanic protesters marched behind a Caucasian individual from the DC Tenants Advocacy Coalition, a non-profit organization dedicated to supporting rent control in Washington, D.C.

Asked why they were there, some Hispanic protesters holding up English protest signs could not articulate what their signs said.

Interviewed in Spanish, the protesters told conflicting stories about how their group was organized. Some said it was organized at their church, and that they were there as volunteers. Others, however, referred to the man from the DC Tenants Advocacy Coalition &#8212; the only Caucasian in the group &#8212; as their &#8220;boss.&#8221;

TheDC asked that organizer whether he was paying the group to attend the protest, and he conceded that some protesters &#8220;aren&#8217;t&#8221; volunteers.

&#8220;Some of them are volunteers. Some of them aren&#8217;t,&#8221; he explained. &#8220;I can&#8217;t identify them. I&#8217;m not going to get into an identification game.&#8221;

TheMercenary;761468 wrote:

The point being why would some members show any hostility
to anyone who is asking them to verbalize in a complete sentence their thoughts
on why they were there and what were they protesting about. It is hilarious.
They look just like the fools who protested at the supposedly peaceful WTO events,
remember those where they burned cars and broke the windows of the local businesses?

The "populist" protest movement "Occupy Wall Street" has certainly created enough buzz, partially from its disparate elements and lack of cohesive central message. It seems to be mostly anti-capitalism cloaked in the semantics of being against "greed" and for "justice", the usual straw men of the protest classes. However, I do think they have selected the right target, even if their rants are aimed in the wrong direction.

The protesters have labeled Wall Street as the capital of capitalism. It is a common misconception, one that is wholeheartedly embraced by the big banks and the banking system in general. Even the Federal Reserve, itself a creation of Wall Street, casts its public relations efforts in that light - that its monetary policies and framework are the fuel that runs the capitalist machine.

footfootfoot;761491 wrote:

I think our government has gotten out of touch with how money is really earned.

"In one week the Occupy Wall Street people have managed more trouble and cost to government and arrests to cities and taxpayers than the tea party has managed in three years."

Pico and ME;761500 wrote:

That's probably a good thing, although unintentional - most there wanted simply to participate in peaceful protest, however there are bad apples in every group - it's what got the medias attention finally, which then brought about much more participation all across the country.

I think you are going to be amazed at how many people end up sympathizing with this protest. Whats really funny is their messages aren't that far off from the Tea Party's populace-type messages. The big difference is that the Tea Party is funded by the people and groups that the OWS crowd is protesting about.

footfootfoot;761491 wrote:

I think our government has gotten out of touch with how money is really earned.

SamIam;761524 wrote:

Everyone in government knows that money is earned by sucking up the the big corporations and the wealthy.

TheMercenary;761507 wrote:

Does this mean we can start calling the protesters "Nazi's" and "Racist"?

SamIam;761528 wrote:

We can certainly call the tea baggers that. They are infamous for their use of racial epitaphs. :rolleyes:

ZenGum;761539 wrote:

Merc does seem terribly disappointed that there haven't been any actual riots yet. He has to keep going back to the WTO ones.

TheMercenary;761563 wrote:

Wow, really? And those liberals who now have power didn't say that about Bush? You need a link? 8 years of that shit.

Hi Kettle....

After a day of closed-door meetings, the Portland Marathon and demonstrators at
Occupy Portland have agreed to coexist, seemingly averting a tense standoff or violent confrontation.

The "people's marathon" -- so called for its policy of rewarding all finishers equally --
has agreed to let the protesters keep their encampment on Chapman Square.
But, in deference to the marathon's safety concerns, the camp will be blocked from runners' view
near the finish line in front of the Justice Center, and occupiers who leave camp won't be allowed back in until later.
<snip>

Police and officials have praised the protest for staying nonviolent and refraining from damaging property,
but police arrested 21-year-old Nolan Zane MacGregor and a 17-year-old boy early Friday
on accusations that the pair spray painted several locations downtown
-- including a police car -- with Occupy Portland slogans.

Stormieweather;761596 wrote:

Someone has to do SOMETHING!! At least those people care enough to speak up.

tw;761677 wrote:

Does not matter if it is a car breakdown, economic malaise, or war. In every case, a problem must always be defined before any solution can be discussed, implemented, or advocated.

For example, why are so many losing their jobs? That problem is based (in part) in an answer to a simple question. What is the purpose of a business? To many, a profit? Then jobs get destroyed. Profit is the purpose of the mafia and other organizations that destroy jobs and nations. Jobs are only created when the product is the purpose of a business. When innovation exists. Profits only exist when industry leaders worry about the product (ie innovation); not about profits. When industry leaders define as corrupt what business schools teach.

If the purpose is a profit, then no profits exist. If the purpose is the product, then a reward (profits) exists. Then jobs are created. So many are so corrupt as to advocate what is taught in the business schools. Make a profit. Screw everyone else.

If that fundamental problem is not first defined, then forget about anyone providing a solution. A person who solves problems first identifies the problem and what created it.

Long before anyone can create a solution, first this and other problems must be defined. We used money games to create jobs four and ten years ago. History repeatedly teaches what happens next. Massive job losses. Therein lays the problem. So many so hate the nation as to want to make job losses even larger. They want even more tax cuts. A perfect example of people who have solutions by ignoring what is and has created the problem.

SamIam;761778 wrote:

I don't think its a matter of the corps or CEO's "hating" the nation. They are indifferent to the nation.

Indifference is a total deregard - the definition of hate - towards your charges.

ZenGum;761881 wrote:

Indifference and hate are very different.

SamIam;761778 wrote:

Well, there's nothing wrong with making a profit. The problem occurs when companies and CEO's get into the "its never enough" mindset. The problem occurs when profit is worshiped to the exclusion of all else. The problem occurs when the end justifies the means, no matter how immoral or destructive to society at large those means usually are.

I don't think its a matter of the corps or CEO's "hating" the nation. They are indifferent to the nation. All that matters is money which buys power which allows for grabbing more money, etc. The nation and its people are just things which must be manipulated, stepped over or stepped on in the quest for "more". But a CEO doesn't hate the American people any more than you or I might hate an ant we happen to step on.

TheMercenary;762166 wrote:

Well I am quite sure these protests are going to put a stop to all of that!

Don't fall in love with yourselves, with the nice time we are having here. Carnivals come cheap—the true test of their worth is what remains the day after, how our normal daily life will be changed. Fall in love with hard and patient work—we are the beginning, not the end. Our basic message is: the taboo is broken, we do not live in the best possible world, we are allowed and obliged even to think about alternatives.[...]

In mid-April 2011, the media reported that Chinese government has prohibited showing on TV and in theatres films which deal with time travel and alternate history, with the argument that such stories introduce frivolity into serious historical matters—even the fictional escape into alternate reality is considered too dangerous. We in the liberal West do not need such an explicit prohibition: ideology exerts enough material power to prevent alternate history narratives being taken with a minimum of seriousness. It is easy for us to imagine the end of the world—see numerous apocalyptic films -, but not end of capitalism.

In an old joke from the defunct German Democratic Republic, a German worker gets a job in Siberia; aware of how all mail will be read by censors, he tells his friends: “Let's establish a code: if a letter you will get from me is written in ordinary blue ink, it is true; if it is written in red ink, it is false.” After a month, his friends get the first letter written in blue ink: “Everything is wonderful here: stores are full, food is abundant, apartments are large and properly heated, movie theatres show films from the West, there are many beautiful girls ready for an affair—the only thing unavailable is red ink.” And is this not our situation till now? We have all the freedoms one wants—the only thing missing is the red ink: we feel free because we lack the very language to articulate our unfreedom. What this lack of red ink means is that, today, all the main terms we use to designate the present conflict—'war on terror,' "democracy and freedom,' 'human rights,' etc—are FALSE terms, mystifying our perception of the situation instead of allowing us to think it. You, here, you are giving to all of us red ink.

TheMercenary;762320 wrote:

I have a better plan....

classicman;762333 wrote:

How would that help? Whats the point?

classicman;762333 wrote:

How would that help? Whats the point?

Starting at 11 p.m. Friday, police started pulling over and ticketing drivers who honked as they drove past protesters.

When the first car - a taxicab - was pulled over, the protesters followed and shouted at police who then formed a blockade around the driver's cab.

The cab driver was then given a $144 ticket - and protesters ended up handing him money afterwards to help pay for his fine.

"I'm really sorry this happened to you tonight, man," one protester said to the cab driver.

TheMercenary;762320 wrote:

I have a better plan....

All corps should lay off all their workers for one month without pay and shut their doors and see if they are worthy of any part of this process. If they are so evil they should just shut their doors and shut off the lights.

Happy Monkey;762357 wrote:

"Going Galt", from Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged. Where the rich people run away and form their own society to teach the poor people a lesson.

SamIam;762492 wrote:

Enough with the references to Ayn Rand's hyperbole. I think American tax payers should have shut off the lights at AIG, Bank of AMERICA, etc., etc., etc., etc. long ago.

You wanna know who John Galt is? I'll tell you. He is a businessman whose soul is filled with greed and believes that neither ordinary human morality or basic business ethics apply to him. He was given a golden parachute by his board of directors for running his enterprise into such terrible debt, that only the government he pretends to despise had the resources to save his sorry ass. He is every CEO who helped manifest the banking and financial institution crises. And he has yet to take responsibility for his actions. Not a one of these corporate felons modeled after Rand's favorite criminal have yet to go to trial.

Without the worker/tax payer bailouts, most of your favorite corrupt institutions would be here no longer.

Its as if I were to set up Robin Hood as the be all and end all of wise economic policy. The character of John Galt is attractive to 17 yrar olds who know nothing of economics and business and to adults who wish to live in the Land of Oz. (and I don't mean Australia)

classicman;762810 wrote:

He may be the engine, but that engine won't run without fuel either. We are mutually linked. There cannot be one without the other in a functional situation. Currently this engine is burning WAY TOO MUCH fuel.

The US Banking Act of 1933, commonly called Glass-Steagall, enforced the separation of investment banking (the issuing of securities) and commercial banking (accepting deposits and making loans).

It was repealed after Citibank, in flagrant contravention of the act, announced the acquisition of the investment banking giant, Salomon Smith Barney, in 1998.

Alan Greenspan, then chairman of the Federal Reserve Board, colluded with the president of Citibank, Sandy Weill, by using an obscure provision of the Bank Holding Company Act that allowed the merger to go through temporarily - with two years grace to divest the investment bank operations.

Greenspan then pressured Congress throughout 1999 to repeal the Glass-Steagall provisions, which it eventually did in November that year with the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act - a law that led directly to the global financial crisis of 2008.

Banks were able to use the privilege given to them to "issue currency", as Jefferson put it, by leveraging their capital far more than any other company - 92 cents of every dollar deposited with a bank can be lent out as fresh money to someone else, thus creating money out of thin air.

After November 1999 the newly-freed banks went berserk, leveraging their capital far more the normal 12.5 to one by using financial engineering and by trading derivatives to increase profits and create huge bonuses for the executives, who rapidly became a kind of plutocracy, controlling vast wealth and running the country.

As we know, they got into trouble and had to be bailed out by US taxpayers.

And now the politicians in Europe at least are trying, feebly, to get back some of the control that was lost. In the US they're not really even trying: cheque after cheque has simply been written to the banks; first TARP, then QEs 1 and 2. The money went straight to executive bonuses - they didn't even bother hiding it.

Now the people themselves are rising up against the plutocracy, with protestors filling Wall Street.

SNIP

Alan Kohler is the Editor in Chief of Business Spectator and Eureka Report, as well as host of Inside Business and finance presenter on ABC News.

Lamplighter;762949 wrote:

Thanks Zen, that is a great link
Can't say I understood all first part about Europe, but the part on the US made sense.

TheMercenary;762763 wrote:

Bullfuckingshit.. he [John Galt] is the engine that drives the economy and without you would be destitute. And when "he" quits, you are more fucked than you think you are....

TheMercenary;762763 wrote:

And without the engine of those willing to sacrifice and put up the capitol there would be no jobs, so you fail again....

TheMercenary;762763 wrote:

Cool... How did that work out for you bleeding hearts in the last election?

Brianna;762912 wrote:

Wasn't Alan Greenspan an original member of the Collective?

DanaC;763175 wrote:

That Rand's little group of acolytes? Yes, he was.

Who's behind the Wall St. protests?

Lead paragraph:
There has been much speculation over who is financing the disparate protest
which has spread to cities across America and lasted nearly four weeks.
One name that keeps coming up is investor George Soros,
who in September debuted in the top 10 list of wealthiest Americans.
Conservative critics contend the movement is a Trojan horse for a secret Soros agenda.

According to disclosure documents from 2007-2009,
Soros' Open Society gave grants of $3.5 million to the Tides Center,
a San Francisco-based group that acts almost like a clearing house for other donors,
directing their contributions to liberal non-profit groups.
Among others the Tides Center has partnered with are the Ford Foundation and the Gates Foundation.

Disclosure documents also show Tides, which declined comment,
gave Adbusters grants of $185,000 from 2001-2010,
including nearly $26,000 between 2007-2009.

Aides to Soros say any connection is tenuous and that Soros has never heard of Adbusters.
Soros himself declined comment.

Other support for Occupy Wall Street has come from online funding website Kickstarter,
where more than $75,000 has been pledged,
deliveries of food and from cash dropped in a bucket at the park.

Liberal film maker Michael Moore has also pledged to donate money.

Lamplighter;763381 wrote:

Great reporting, guys - NOT

wrote:

Perhaps the most surprising thing about Occupy Wall Street is that it is a financial success. In just four weeks since the protest began, it has raised well over $200,000 and collected far more than that in donated food and clothing.

There has been a lot of speculation who might be financing the protests. One person sometimes signaled out is George Soros, the well-known hedge fund manager who has used his bank-account to fund progressive causes quite a few times.

Soros no doubt supports many of the sentiments of the Occupy Wall Streeters. But there doesn’t seem to be much of direct connection. A Reuters investigation found only the most tenuous connection.

Pete Zicato;763500 wrote:

[ATTACH]34529[/ATTACH]

1.5 weeks ago, rather spur of the moment, I decided that I'd take my 16 year old son, A----n, to NYC to participate in and observe the Occupy Wall Street demonstration. He's been quite involved with local community organizing, is doing an independent study for American Government this year, and has been volunteering as an intern for Organizing for America for the past year. I thought this would be a great way for him to see a grassroots movement and also take part in what I believe will be an event written about in history books at some point. So we went.

Drawing numerous raised eyebrows, we made our way to Liberty (aka Zuccoti) Square in the financial district. I must say, we stood out, carrying backpacks complete with sleeping bags attached. We arrived at the square around 4:00 p.m. Friday. Unsure--and, let's be honest here, pretty much small town rubes--of the lay of the land, we staked out an area just large enough for the two of us to sit on as soon as we could. As it turns out, we were ideally located, close to the information table, close to where the teach-ins occurred, close to the entrance to park on Broadway. As I sort of stayed and watched our stuff, A----n went out to search out what was going on. True to form, he immeciately found food;) and asked for information. Meanwhile, as I sat and observed, it was announced that there was a "newcomers meeting," and we happened to miss it. I wish we hadn't, but at that time, I was really feeling unsure about leaving our stuff unattended.

A----n returned with a snack...I believe it was peanut butter on whole wheat bread, some fruit, and some Twizzlers. Around that time, a spokesperson teaching about the uprisings in Greece began to conduct a teach-in. A----n went to listen to that and I used that time to meet up with the people around us. The guy next to me as unfriendly adn very cold (I later figured out he wasn't a true demonstrator, but rather is mentally unbalanced and living on the streedt). The guys behind me were from Michigan, college students, who had taken the bus to NYC to participate and next to them was a guy from Philly and one from Indiana.

After the teach-in, A----n began to get antsy. He wanted to see what was happening and on the surface, nothing was happening. At one point, he was bored and disillusioned and wanting to leave, only we had no where to go. Our housing for the weekend wasn't available until Saturday. Friday night, we were on out own (and really not able to afford a hotel room in Manhattan). So he meandered over to the volunteer table and volunteered. He ended up passing out info flyers about the next day's meetings and working groups. And then, it was time to eat again. This time, he came back with the most phenomenal ziti with kale and awesome spices, a potato dish, some couscous, and other tasty and healthy options.

By that point, we were feeling comfortable enough to leave our possessions unguarded, so we went for a meander and discovered the People's Library, the kitchen area (complete with gray water system and composting), day care, "comfort" station which provided us with blankets to use under our sleeping bags and a pillow for my old head, and the medical area. As we walked, people all around us were carrying on (loud) conversations about politics, philosophy, hopes, dreams, and frustrations. Everyone had a story. Some were clearly idealists. Some were frustrated by their plight in life. Many were un- or underemployed. Most had done "everything right." Many, many were raised or reached the middle class. There were out of work tradespeople standing shoulder to shoulder with PhDs, one of whom had told me that she'd had tenure, but her school had eliminated the department she taught in and all the full time, tenured profs had been eliminated, to be replaced by adjuncts who only taught part time and online. Another told me she was an adjunct with two Phds....just a huge variety of people there for many reasons.

As darkness fell, A----n jumped at the opportunity to work in the kitchen area, serving food and I went back to stake our our area and figure out exactly how sleeping arrangments worked. As it turned out, it was a good thing I did. Space was at a premium. I nabbed enough bench for me to sleep on and spread out A----n's stuff next to it, and just in time, too. When we awoke in the morning every single inch of ground space around us was being used.

At that time, as people were starting to settle in, a General Assembly was starting, within mere yards of us. These events use specific hand gestures and a type of call and response known as The People's Mic in lieu of amplification. It's quite effective. That night, there were lots of announcements, health warnings, a run down of rules (e.g. no drugs or alcohol, no violence or weapons, share and share alike) a little soap boxing, etc. It went on for over an hour. It was during this that I realized that my benchmate really was more than a little unbalanced. He started yelling back and getting very angry and confrontational. Immediately, a member of the OWS security working group, called a de-escalation member, arrived and talked the guy down, very respectfully, very quietly, very peacefully. The de-escalation guy was huge, ripped, and looked like the consumate bouncer. He did not use an imposing or threatening body language or violent communication. Later the same evening, my benchmate again got violent and aggressive and a different member came over (at this point, A----n knew to whom to turn and was instrumental in heading off what could have been an ugly incident...he also did a good job talking down the woman the unbalanced man was accosting...she was very "new york" and was not going to take his lip....kudos, A----n!). This time, the de-escalation expert talked this guy to sleep.

As we all settled in to sleep, the park quieted down quiet well. It wasn't very dark and it wasn't very warm. I've slept in colder while camping, and I wasn't chilly as long as I kept my head covered (I'd packed a hat, but couldn't find it in the dark in my bag). I was on a marble bench, laying on some cardboard signs and a blanket, in my down sleeping bag. A----n, though, was on the ground, on cardboard and a foil space blanket. However, while my sleeping bag zipper wouldn't stay up, his didn't zip. So, when he'd move, he'd end up off the cardboard and on the chilly concrete, and when he'd try to move back, his bag would come open. The poor kid didn't sleep very well.

Around daybreak, I woke up and carefully picked my way through the sleeping mass to the street where I then made my way to the McDonald's which was allowing us to use their bathrooms. I returned, settled back in, and dozed off until around 6:30 or 7:00 when someone announcing morning yoga. That got people up and going:) A----n again went in search of food and brough back fruit and cereal and whole wheat bagels. There was another set of announcements, requests for help with working groups, a schedcule for the day, requests for assistance at a General Assembly in another park, reminders to be respectful of police and others, and the good news that there had been a donation of storage space to hold items of clothing and bedding, a sign up system for showers and laundry, and a request to help keep the park and McDonald's clean.

Shortly thereafter A----n and I decided to go see some of the city. Not being big city people, we had little we felt compelled to see. We'd seen Times Square. We'd seen the theater district. We'd ridden the subway. So we headed to a place we'd feel more comfortable...historical monuments. And we went off to see the Statue of Liberty and Ellis Island. Such stereotypical homeschoolers at heart, I guess. There were some other museums on our list, but the holiday weekend crowds and wonderfully warm, sunny weather had driven hoards of people into the city and we spend hours standing in line; therefore, that's all we did, and that took up four hours.

We then returned to the OWS demonstration and decided that the two of us just aren't cut out for constant noise, hustle, and bustle. We'd accomplished our goals. And, quite frankly, we needed some downtime. We'd driven to Ithaca Wednesday, arriving around 11 pm. We'd spent the first part of Thursday in Ithaca (eating at the Moosewood Restraunt), and then driven to Groton, MA where "the cousins" live, arriving around 9:30. We'd gone to bed late and then gotten up to drive into NYC Friday. And by 4:00 Saturday, we were done in. So as A----n took the remnants of the food we'd brought to the kitchen, I tidied up our bags, gave away our blankets, sleeping bags, and emergency blankets to people who were there for the long haul.

We then headed out to visit with my friend who lives in Harlem, where A----n got an insider's tour of the neighborhood by my friend's 13 yo son, and we got to eat a traditional New York Pizza Pie at the super traditional Patsey's on 1st. We got up Sunday morning, headed back uptown to meet our ride back to the Boston area, and also then had a nice brunch in Chelsea with some of my brother-in-law's friends. Yum. We then left town.

People keep asking me what my impressions were, what I observed.

Here's what I experienced and observed:

People keep asking me what my impressions were, what I observed.

Here's what I experienced and observed:

Unlike what much of the popular media is saying, I didn't see any orgies, open sex, drugs, or alcohol use. It wasn't wild. I, small town girl from NWOhio, did not feel unsafe in any way. Yes, there were some street people, probably some junkies, some who were mentally ill....but they were being cared for and welcomed as they were, without judgement or recrminination. they were fed, clothed, and provided with minimal health care if needed.

In essence, the OWS people were doing their best to create a system similar to what they would like to see happen across the nation. People were stepping up and doing what needed to be done, based on their personal strengths and interests. There were people sweeping the park regularly as well as emptying the trash and recycling. There were people working the food line, doing dishes, and sorting clothing. There were people tending children and providing the children with age appropriate activities. There were people cleaning the restrooms in the McDonald's--and doing a better job I might add than the McD's employees. They were even tidying up the seating area of the McD's. In the morning when I got up to use the bathroom there, two homeless men who had been trying to sleep in the McD's were being evicted by a police officer. Three guys from the OWS encampment offered to take the guys over to OWS, get them some food, and find them a safe place to sleep.



I saw very, very different groups of people coming together to make things happen, able to put aside differences to work on arriving at consensus, pure consensus, not just agreeing for the sake of agreement. Arriving at consensus is not easy nor is it a fast process. It's certainly not efficient. But it can be highly effective.

I keep reading and hearing that "they" don't have a clear agenda. I think their agenda is perfectly clear, if not offically worded. It's a movement that wants less discrepency betweent the haves and the have-nots. I saw a group of people who want to fix what is wrong and getting wronger in American society.



I saw the beginnings of a movement, call it a revolution if you will. I'm certain that the Civil Right's movement didn't spring forth with Malcom X and MLK at the helm. It started with groups of people, in many places, saying "this will not do." The revolutionaries of old did not suddenly wake up with a Declaration of Independence. They hammered that document out over a period of months, which followed a period of years. THe American Revolution was a populist movement, much like this one. And it angers me to see relatively bright people saying that nothing is being accomplished. It's been a month, folks. No well thought out movement is full grown in a matter of weeks.



I also saw people from every age group working together and living peacefully. All races. All nationalities. There was another mother with her 16 year old son camped near us. A grandfather and his 13 year old grandson on the other side. Graduate students behind us. A woman at least in her 60s woke up around the time I did. I had to help her off the ground. She was a bit stiff. There was a woman who was in end stage cancer. A yogi. A nurse and a teacher. There was a "red hat brigade" and three women who had signs saying that they'd been retired for 20 years and were angry. One had a sign that said, "I didn't spend 33 years of my life teaching kids to think to have them ignored by their government" and another had a sign that said, "USA, don't make me liar...let them have the opportunities to be whatever they want to be."

I saw young people volunteering to clean toilets. I saw young people sweeping the sidewalks.

Some were dread lock wearing, drumming, incense burning hippies. Some were wearing Hollister. Most would not raise eyebrows on any street.

I saw young people writing, speaking, and reading. People were sharing literature. No one was asking for money. People were sharing.

So, yes, very revolutionary. I saw hundreds (maybe thousands? I have no clue) of people behaving in ways that would make any reasonable mother proud.

I saw a microcosm of what the USA should be like. I saw hope.

Cumulative Change in Real After-Tax Average Income
[ATTACH]34530[/ATTACH]
Growth in after-tax income has been uneven across the income distribution, with upper-income groups seeing more rapid growth than lower-income groups. Much of that increase reflects the pattern of before-tax income growth

BigV;763521 wrote:

That's 101%.

I keep reading and hearing that "they" don't have a clear agenda. I think their agenda is perfectly clear, if not offically worded. It's a movement that wants less discrepency betweent the haves and the have-nots. I saw a group of people who want to fix what is wrong and getting wronger in American society.

In essence, the OWS people were doing their best to create a system similar to what they would like to see happen across the nation. People were stepping up and doing what needed to be done, based on their personal strengths and interests.

I saw young people volunteering to clean toilets. I saw young people sweeping the sidewalks.

Some were dread lock wearing, drumming, incense burning hippies. Some were wearing Hollister. Most would not raise eyebrows on any street.

I saw young people writing, speaking, and reading. People were sharing literature. No one was asking for money. People were sharing.

So, yes, very revolutionary. I saw hundreds (maybe thousands? I have no clue) of people behaving in ways that would make any reasonable mother proud.

I saw a microcosm of what the USA should be like. I saw hope.

xoxoxoBruce;763554 wrote:

No, the top 20% also includes the top 1%.

Here's another similar chart from a reliable source

wrote:

But "it's not enough to say you're against deficits, bloated government and Obamacare. You've got to have something people see as positive."

True to form, Forbes says the GOP's path to the White House is paved with a "Reagan-esque pro-growth message," featuring a simplified tax code and less regulation, as well as a (true) strong dollar policy.

"Those are the kind of themes that will resonate," he says, citing former Minnesota Governor Tim Pawlenty's tax reform plan as a good example.

Last month, Pawlenty proposed cutting the corporate tax rate to 15% from 35% and the top individual income tax rate to 25% from 35% while eliminating taxes on capital gains, interest and dividends and repealing the estate tax.

It may be hard to pin down exactly what the Occupy Wall Street protesters want, [noshit] but one of the sources of their frustration seems clear. Many of the demonstrators are drowning in student debt.
Rose Swidden came to Zuccotti Park in Lower Manhattan from upstate New York, where she is studying agriculture at SUNY Cobleskill. She expects to graduate in May with USD 35,000 in debt, and doesn`t know how she will pay it back.
"We did what we were told to do: go to college, get an education, you`ll get a job, you`ll get a house, you`ll be cool," she said. "And that`s what we did. And now here we are done with it-and now what?" [idiot]
One proposed list of demands for the Occupy Wall Street movement includes "free college tuition" and "immediate across the board forgiveness" of student debt. While neither demand may be very realistic, the student debt problem is very real.

glatt;763663 wrote:

So you have more than one job, and you are criticizing people who are complaining that they can even get one job.:rolleyes:

TheMercenary;763666 wrote:

I am not criticizing people for complaining about not getting a job here, or anywhere, as much as I am laughing at fools who think they should be relieved of college debt because they chose to study and get a degree in History and now think they shouldn't pay back their debt.

How many jobs I have is irrelevant.

Lamplighter;763667 wrote:

Jeff Immelt and the other CEO's may be lurking in the group.
They want to have tax holiday so the corps can bring their profit $ back into the US without paying the income taxes they would owe.

Fools - their cash flows are pointing the wrong way.

glatt;763671 wrote:

You're making stuff up. You have no idea what they studied. You invent a scenario in your head to fit your prejudices.

How many jobs you have is relevant to your credibility.

You have multiple jobs and live a comfortable life...

....and are laughing at the have-nots who only want a chance at the american dream. But the jobs aren't there.

TheMercenary;763673 wrote:

Ummm, no. Actually it was from the NPR report I heard.

http://www.npr.org/2011/10/14/141343966/college-students-join-occupy-wall-street-demonstrations

BigV;763605 wrote:

Time.

The years from 1979 to 2007.

glatt;763679 wrote:

OK, I'm not going to bother listening to that, I trust you that it's in there somewhere. I read your quote and followed you original link to the article where there was no mention of what was studied.

What bugs me about your attitude is that these people only want the same chances that you (and I) got.

You routinely refer to all of them as fools, but they have legitimate gripes.

I have more to say, but can't really devote time to it right now.

Aliantha;763681 wrote:

I don't know for certain what the ratio of legitimate gripes is to supposed gripes in this whole protest thing, but it's probably fair to say there's a reasonable number of both.

People who don't want to pay their debts annoy all of us, but there are some pretty serious social issues going on in the US atm, and I think a lot of people have a pretty good reason for protesting about where money is spent etc.

Surely no one can disagree with that?

Undertoad;763684 wrote:

What is the Y axis?

TheMercenary;763686 wrote:

And when you start to tell me that my tax money has to go to paying off your college debt, you are a god damm fool. Does anyone think these protests are going to get any multi-million dollar Corporation anywhere to suddenly change the way they do business?

Lasn [Adbusters co-founder] said
Adbusters is 95 percent funded by subscribers paying for the magazine.

"George Soros's ideas are quite good, many of them.
I wish he would give Adbusters some money, we sorely need it,
[COLOR="Red"]she[/COLOR] said. "He's never given us a penny."

Kalle Lasn, 69, is their quasi leader. [COLOR="Red"]He[/COLOR]’s the publisher and editor of Adbusters magazine.
It’s a small, non-influential critical and artsy magazine with a decent following
of around 90,000 who call themselves “culture jammers”.
Occupy Wall Street began in the conference rooms at that Vancouver mag.

I spoke with Lasn in July, right after the new edition of Adbusters hit the news stands
with the now famous image of a ballerina balancing on the Wall Street bull. (below)

Above [COLOR="Red"]her[/COLOR] head read the Twitter hashtag #OccupyWallStreet.

piercehawkeye45;763777 wrote:

The protests aren't going to change anything but I'm guessing a lot of the calls for government to pay off student debts has to do with the fact that many large Corporations had their debts paid off by the government for making bad decisions while these students will not. I disagree with the logic, I do believe in personal responsibility, but student debt is going to be a very large problem that has the chance of affecting everyone either directly or indirectly, so it shouldn't just instantly be dismissed.

Also, it isn't a 30 year experienced CEO making mistakes, they are kids who can't even legally drink that are being exploited by the Universities to pay for research, which is actually very true. I don't necessarily feel bad for them but I will acknowledge that the entire University system is pretty messed up.

DanaC;763887 wrote:

Lies and more lies from the Right.

DanaC;763895 wrote:

Right. So the disgruntled and betrayed old veteran is an anomaly, but the bloke shitting on a cop car is mainstream?

TheMercenary;763890 wrote:

Does not change the fact that these FOOLS think I, a tax payer should pay off THEIR debt. Screw them. I am paying for my own kids to go to college. Don't think for one minute that I am going to pay off their debt, regardless of the reason or some other esoteric bull shit reason.

I don't know. Don't the universities exploit their athlete's that they make millions of dollars off of and the athlete gets nothing for their service, other than on some occasions, a scholarship?

Yabbut what does the word "cumulative" mean in that context?

Undertoad;764034 wrote:

But what if we graphed the top 1% of home-run hitters in baseball? In 1979, that would be Dave Kingman, Mike Schmidt, Gorman Thomas, Fred Lynn and Jerry Rice. In 2011, that would be Jose Bautista, Curtis Granderson, Matt Kemp, Mark Teixeira and Prince Fielder.

DanaC;763928 wrote:

I do. My brother trained as an NLP councillor. He used to fascinate me when he;d come back from a residential course and talk about what he'd learned.

Undertoad;764034 wrote:

BigV, this chart is a :eek: STUNNING :eek: example of misuse of statistics.

A similar graph would be created in almost ANY bell curve, measuring ANY statistic!

This graph is showing us that the top 1% make more money than the lower 99%. (Duh)

The graph is NOT saying is that the top 1% are getting way way richer than everybody else... and it is NOT saying that the top 1% has any greater inequality in 2007 than it did in 1979!

"Cumulative" means that the data point in 1980 is the after-tax income of 1980 PLUS the after-tax income of 1979. And so the 1981 number is 1981+1980+1979. And so forth.

"But wait a minute," I hear you typing, "Isn't it still remarkably unfair that the top 1% accumulate so much more after-tax money than even their buddies in the 99-95% range?"

No -- because the 1% in 1979 are not the SAME 1% in 2007!

The graph wants you to accept the narrative that it's the same guys in 1979, who now are fabulously wealthy as they accumulated truckloads of stuff by 2007.

But what if we graphed the top 1% of home-run hitters in baseball? In 1979, that would be Dave Kingman, Mike Schmidt, Gorman Thomas, Fred Lynn and Jerry Rice. In 2011, that would be Jose Bautista, Curtis Granderson, Matt Kemp, Mark Teixeira and Prince Fielder.

The graph of that top 1% would look very similar to this graph. Each year, the top 1% of home-run hitters would accumulate more home runs than the bottom 99%. Some years, as in the steroid years, they would accumulate it faster. Some years, as in the current years, they would accumulate it slower. But it's not the same guys accumulating! It's just the constant top 1%.

To put it another way? In 1979, Bill Gates ran a tiny software house that offered a version of the BASIC programming language to fellow geeks. He was busy begging them not to pirate it. In 1979, Bill Gates was measured in the bottom line of that graph.

BigV;764050 wrote:

That's one theory... or you could be reading it wrong. You are overthinking it.

There's another aspect to this: wealth is not like a big pie, where if the people at the top eat a bigger piece, that means people like you and me are left with a smaller piece.

piercehawkeye45;763910 wrote:

Esoteric? C'mon. It is obvious that the housing bubble was bad for everyone and the recession probably would have been much worse if many of the big finance corporations went under. College graduates make up a large portion of the middle class so it is pretty clear that if many graduates cannot pay off their debt, there are going to large economic issues that will affect everyone.

Stormieweather;764119 wrote:

And yet, that is precisely what your tax dollars did with TARP. Pay off some fool's debt...some "too big to fail" fools.

Undertoad;764103 wrote:

Different kind of wealth sir;

Brianna;764176 wrote:

Life is rarely that simple. Life is rarely black and white.

Everything is just fine until something unimaginable happens - like a catastrophic illness or the breadwinner loses the job (after doing everything "right" like in the above posters sign)


Life isn't like following a recipe: Do A and B and C will happen. I mean, you can try - you should try - to do the right thing but life has a way of making its own way. You can't blame people when cosmic shit happens to them.


eta - I am wondering. Do you think everyone should follow your example and live like you do? should everyone take direction from you? can you, will you explain the meaning of life to everyone? You certainly make out like you have all the answers and if people would just do as you say, it would all work out for them. If they don't do as you say, or do as you did, they are
god damn fools, right?

DanaC;764301 wrote:

At least they're only singing about it. The people and organisations being protested against have taken a much more active approach to fucking the USA.

Undertoad;764054 wrote:

There's another aspect to this: wealth is not like a big pie, where if the people at the top eat a bigger piece, that means people like you and me are left with a smaller piece.

TheMercenary;764299 wrote:

PORTLAND, Ore. – A sex offender who registered his address with police
as the Occupy Portland camp downtown is concerning some protesters who are camping there.
<snip>

KATU News searched for Curtis in sex offender databases in Oregon, Washington and California.
His name did not appear.
The Occupy Portland public safety team says they still take this seriously.
“I personally will engage with police if that’s necessary and we’ll take care of the problem,”
said public safety team member Nat Holder. “It’s zero tolerance for violence.”
26 people patrol the camps at night, according to public safety team members.
Despite one report of a possible sexual assault police could never confirm,
most protesters told KATU News they are not concerned about their safety in the camps.

DanaC;764448 wrote:

Been watching the coverage of the occupations going on around the world. The one at St Paul's Cathedral in London looks great. There's a little (ok not so little) part of me really wishes i was down there. There's a much bigger part of me is grateful I am in fact at home, cosy and warm in my little cottage with readily accessible bathroom facilities :p

...

The relatively low levels of violence and disorder associated with these occupation demos is staggering really. Demonstrations in London almost *always* descend into riot. Certainly from my own experience, I've never been on one that didnt.

DanaC;764448 wrote:

I wish them the best. Because they're doing this for me and us, not just themselves. They are engaged in a worthy struggle. They are exercising agency. Good on them.

If that sounds oddly civilised for an anti-capitalist demo, then you should see the waste disposal centre, with separate bins for bottles, paper and rubbish. Or the kitchen, running entirely on donated supplies and volunteer cooks. Or the media centre, with running generators, work spaces and an embryonic video editing suite. The men and women in London's financial district aren't protesting. They're laying down roots.

"We've got church blessing," Giles tells me. He points to beautiful, morbid old St Paul's behind him, which offers us some respite from the wind. "In this building Rev Giles Fraser, who controls this square, has given us his blessing. This is a private square." He waves his hand across the scene, taking in a collection of around 40 tents and 200 activists all busily engaged in activities, from cooking to litter clearance to prolonged debates on the merits of the Tobin tax. "He's asked the police to go. If there are problems then we'll be thrown off. Our aim is to stay here peacefully. It might look like rag-tag operation but there's quite a lot of stuff going on here. We've got a ton of working groups gathered to get this message out clearly. We're encouraging people to come join us without being seen as a bunch of camping hippies."

Whichever way you look at it, it's impressive. I talk to Diaphel, who is running the media centre. Inside the tent, a handful of men are typing away on laptops while others charge their phones. All the wires lead to a generator outside with several cans of fuel beside it. They have another generator coming. He seems confident they can keep the power running indefinitely at the current rate of donation.

"A lot of people are donating," he explains. "People walk by and ask what we need. One person is donating pizza on a regular basis from Enfield. One person in a suit and tie just got a job with a power company. He's getting us some solar panels. The guy that got us the petrol was from a local pub. An unemployed architect is advising us on organising the accommodation."

Next to the media hub, a collection of tents serves as a health centre. Inside, an activist is getting some rest with a couple of volunteer first aiders. Bridget, a respectable middle-aged woman who you'd trust with your house keys, is a registered nurse and a practising midwife. She's running things while the doctor, who just pulled a two-day shift, goes home and gets some rest.

As we talk, a middle-aged man with a copy of the Telegraph pulls a bemused look as he surveys the scene. I ask him what he makes of it. "I'm surprised it hasn't happened before," he says instantly. "Been rather slow to come about."

Across the US, Europe and Australia similar camps are being set up, with a strangely neutral response from the press and the cautious sympathy of passers-by. Of course, something this diverse has no concrete aims. It is not in a position to write out a manifesto yet, beyond an opposition to bank bailouts and public sector spending cuts. But this is how popular movements begin, with generalised discontent. Sometimes they fizzle out. Sometimes they build to something bigger, especially when their anger is focused and resonates with the public. In London, the process requires protesters to maintain the camps as a focal point for the movement, as Zuccotti Park is for Occupy Wall Street. At the current rate of organisation, that seems entirely credible.

Stormieweather;764443 wrote:

Companies making more money (profits) does not necessarily translate to more jobs. Corporations, particularly the BIG ones, are recording record-breaking profits. But there are a ways to make profits, besides selling more of your product. You can cut costs - employ less people, work them harder, pay them less, give them fewer benefits, export jobs overseas, take advantage of overseas tax havens, raise prices and get laws created in your favor (such as environmental deregulation). The simple fact remains that jobs will not be created in sufficient quantities until consumers have adequate funds to buy the products/services, thereby creating a demand for expansion, resulting in jobs.

The argument that if the 1% get richer, then so do the 99% is not exactly accurate, particularly in the last decade. The top 20% do (not by much!), but the other 80% are flat-lined or declining. Check the graphs in the attached, "Winners Take All" really demonstrates the situation.

henry quirk;764803 wrote:

And, if by some wild chance, the 'occupants' get their way and the 'rich' are restricted to, say, ****100 million (with every dollar above that going to those in government) then those rich folks will downsize. They will close plants, terminate divisions, fire the asses of huge numbers of folks, and make damned sure they never rise above 99 million in accumulated wealth.

henry quirk;764811 wrote:

HA!

The trick: forcing someone with a worth (power) exceeding that of a small nation to 'do' anything at all.

If he or she can't buy you, then he or she will have you ended and buried deep.

It would be nice if 'right makes/is might' but the reality is 'might makes/is right'.

*shrug*

henry quirk;764803 wrote:

What the **'occupants' don't get: the 'rich' don't care.

“But when they made love he was offended by her eyes. They behaved as though they belonged to someone else. Someone watching. Looking out of the window at the sea. At a boat in the river. Or a passerby in the mist in a hat.

He was exasperated because he didn't know what that look meant. He put it somewhere between indifference and despair. He didn’t know that in some places, like the country that Rahel came from, various kinds of despair competed for primacy. And that personal despair could never be desperate enough. That something happened when personal turmoil dropped by at the wayside shrine of the vast, violent, circling, driving, ridiculous, insane, unfeasible, public turmoil of a nation. That Big God howled like a hot wind, and demanded obeisance. Then Small God (cozy and contained, private and limited) came away cauterized, laughing numbly at his own temerity. Inured by the confirmation of his own inconsequence, he became resilient and truly indifferent. Nothing mattered much. Nothing much mattered. And the less it mattered, the less it mattered. It was never important enough. Because Worse Things had happened. In the country that she came from, poised forever between the terror of war and the horror of peace, Worse Things kept happening.

So Small God laughed a hollow laugh, and skipped away cheerfully. Like a rich boy in shorts. He whistled, kicked stones. The source of his brittle elation was the relative smallness of his misfortune. He climbed into people’s eyes and became an exasperating expression.”
&#8213; Arundhati Roy, The God of Small Things

Change only occurs if one refuses to accepts their fate, challenging the status quo instead. To ever even have the hope of anything different, one must first care enough to act. Stormieweather

"It's wrong," the sign said, "to create a mortgage-backed security filled with loans you know are going to fail so that you can sell it to a client who isn't aware that you sabotaged it by intentionally picking the misleadingly rated loans most likely to be defaulted upon."

The [Occupy Portland] activists have settled into Chapman
and Lownsdale Square parks with no announced plans to depart.
Organizers estimate as many as 500 people have be living there.

"I think each city (nationwide) is experiencing something a little
different with this movement," [Police] Chief Reese said,
" We're taking it day by day."

A man was removed Tuesday afternoon from Chapman Square Park
on an accusation of dealing marijuana.
A nine-year-old girl was reported missing for about 40 minutes Tuesday evening.
Parks crew put up a mesh barricade around one statue
and some fragile landscaping in Lownsdale Park.

henry quirk;765244 wrote:

"The people harmed by the transaction had no say."

I imagine each had the choice, from the beginning, of whether or not to transact with the particular institution.

Again: Buyer beware.

Pete Zicato;765125 wrote:

For all the people complaining about the OWS protesters being vague, here's a sharper tongue:



http://marketplace.publicradio.org/display/web/2011/10/18/pm-from-blog-post-to-protest-sign-on-occupy-wall-street/?refid=0

TheMercenary;765274 wrote:

But they don't agree on the issues.

henry quirk;765250 wrote:

Am I mistaken in assuming that 401k programs are voluntary?

Pete Zicato;765282 wrote:

I see the OWS thing as being much like the speech in Network. They're mad as hell and not going to take it anymore. It's difficult to fit anger about the credit default swap thing onto a poster.

Who are we? Well, who are you? If you&#8217;re reading this, there&#8217;s a 99 percent chance that you&#8217;re one of us.

You&#8217;re someone who doesn&#8217;t know whether there&#8217;s going to be enough money to make this month&#8217;s rent. You&#8217;re someone who gets sick and toughs it out because you&#8217;ll never afford the hospital bills. You&#8217;re someone who&#8217;s trying to move a mountain of debt that never seems to get any smaller no matter how hard you try. You do all the things you&#8217;re supposed to do. You buy store brands. You get a second job. You take classes to improve your skills. But it&#8217;s not enough. It&#8217;s never enough. The anxiety, the frustration, the powerlessness is still there, hovering like a storm crow. Every month you make it is a victory, but a Pyrrhic one &#8212; once you&#8217;re over the hump, all you can do is think about the next one and how much harder it&#8217;s all going to be.

They say it&#8217;s because you&#8217;re lazy. They say it&#8217;s because you make poor choices. They say it&#8217;s because you&#8217;re spoiled. If you&#8217;d only apply yourself a little more, worked a little harder, planned a little better, things would go well for you. Why do you need more help? Haven&#8217;t they helped you enough? They say you have no one to blame but yourself. They say it&#8217;s all your fault.

They are the 1 percent. They are the banks, the mortgage industry, the insurance industry. They are the important ones. They need help and get bailed out and are praised as job creators. We need help and get nothing and are called entitled. We live in a society made for them, not for us. It&#8217;s their world, not ours. If we&#8217;re lucky, they&#8217;ll let us work in it so long as we don&#8217;t question the extent of their charity.

We are the 99 percent. We are everyone else. And we will no longer be silent. It&#8217;s time the 1 percent got to know us a little better. On Sept. 17, 2011, the 99 percent will converge on Wall Street to let the 1 percent know just how frustrated they are with living in a world made for someone else. Let us know why you&#8217;ll be there. Let us know how you are the 99 percent.

DanaC;765295 wrote:

Apparently, if the 99% can't agree on a nailed down demand that will encapsulate all their grievances, set forth a solution and still fit onto a placard, then their voices aren't worth listening to.

DanaC;765293 wrote:

Here's one of the 99%

DanaC;765305 wrote:

I know what you mean about the 'white noise' effect. But to me that doesn't make it meaningless, it makes it all the more meaningful. It is a primal yell of discontent from an unhappy populace.

DanaC;765317 wrote:

They've managed to find the least articulate, and least sophisticated protestors possible.

Around 500 people marched through Manhattan's Upper East Side, passing the high-rise buildings where many of the executives live. Among them are Paulson, global media mogul Rupert Murdoch, JPMorgan Chase chief executive Jamie Dimon and David Koch, co-founder of energy firm Koch Industries.

The protesters chanted "Banks got bailed out, we got sold out" and "Hey you billionaires, pay your fair share" and carried signs that read "Stop robbing from the middle class to pay the rich" and "We are the 99 percent," a reference to the idea that the top 1 percent of Americans have too much.

What's there to say about Occupy Wall Street? The answer isn't so simple. Some complain about taxpayer bailouts of businesses. Good for them. In a true free market, failing firms would go out of business. They couldn't turn to Washington for help.

But many protesters say they're against capitalism. Now things get confusing. What do they mean? If by "capitalism" they mean crony capitalism (let's call it crapitalism), a system in which favored business interests are supported by government, I'm against that, too.

But if they mean the free market, then they are fools. When allowed to work, the market has lifted more people out of the mud and misery of poverty than any government, ever.

The protesters are also upset about income disparity. Here again we should make distinctions. To the extent the country's income disparity is the result of crony capitalism, it's bad.

Yet even if America had a true free market, there would be income disparity. It's a byproduct of freedom. Some people are just more ambitious, more energetic, and more driven, and some have that ineffable knack of sensing what consumers want. Think Steve Jobs.

But it shouldn't matter if the income gap between you and rich people grows. What should matter is that your living standard improves.

Your living standard many not have improved lately. Over the past decade, median income fell. But that's an aberration largely caused by the bursting of the real estate bubble. Despite Wall Street protesters' complaints about rich people gaining at the expense of the poor, the poorest fifth of Americans are 20 percent wealthier than they were when I was in college, and despite the recession, still richer than they were in 1993.

And income statistics don't tell the whole story. Thanks to the innovations of entrepreneurs, today in America, even poor people have clean water, TV sets, cars, and flush toilets. Most live better than kings once lived&#8212;better even than the middle class lived in 1970.

Some protesters say they hate the market process that makes that possible. They call rich people "robber barons." That term was used by American newspapers to smear tycoons like Cornelius Vanderbilt and John D. Rockefeller. But Vanderbilt and Rockefeller were neither robbers nor barons. They weren't barons because they weren't born rich. They weren't robbers because they didn't steal. They got rich by serving customers well. As Burton Folsom wrote in The Myth of the Robber Barons, there were political entrepreneurs, who made their fortunes through government privilege, and market entrepreneurs, who pleased consumers.

Rockefeller and Vanderbilt were market entrepreneurs. Vanderbilt invented ways to make travel cheaper. He used bigger ships and served food onboard. People liked that, and the extra customers he attracted allowed him to lower costs. He cut the New York-Hartford fare from $8 to $1. That helped people.

Rockefeller was called a monopolist, but he wasn't one. He had 150 competitors&#8212;including big companies like Texaco and Gulf. No one was ever forced to buy his oil. Rockefeller got rich by finding cheaper ways to get oil products to the market. His competitors vilified him because he "stole" their customers by lowering prices. Ignorant reporters repeated their complaints.

In truth, Rockefeller's price cuts made life better. Poor people used to go to bed when it got dark, but thanks to Rockefeller, they could afford fuel for lanterns and stay up and read at night. Rockefeller's "greed" may have even saved the whales. When he lowered the price of kerosene, he eliminated the need for whale oil, and the slaughter of whales suddenly stopped. Bet your kids won't read "Rockefeller saved the whales" in environmental studies class.

I have at least found some common ground with some Wall Street protest supporters. Joe Sibilia, who runs the website CSRWire (Corporate Social Responsibility), told me, "You can't have an environment where people are betting on financial instruments with the expectation that the government is going to bail them out."

So we agree that Wall Street bailouts are intolerable. Now we just have to teach our progressive friends that truly free markets work for the benefit of all.

TheMercenary;765741 wrote:

.

ZenGum;765758 wrote:

[mathsnerd] Two points defines a line. Three would define a plane unless they're all on the same line. Four defines a space, similar caveat. Higher dimensional phase spaces cann be defined by ... [/youdon'treallycaredoyou?]

Thanks to the innovations of entrepreneurs, today in America, even poor people have clean water, TV sets, cars, and flush toilets. Most live better than kings once lived&#8212;better even than the middle class lived in 1970.

Clodfobble;765861 wrote:

Unless the poor people of today all own iPhones, it's not comparable.

TheMercenary wrote:

Why should poor people own iPhones and why would that even be a goal?

TheMercenary;765988 wrote:

The point being that the taxpayers need to make sure there is parity. There will never be parity. Someone needs to make my coffee at starbucks while I do my job.

Dear Investor:

Up until now, Goldman Sachs has been silent on the subject of the protest movement known as Occupy Wall Street. That does not mean, however, that it has not been very much on our minds. As thousands have gathered in Lower Manhattan, passionately expressing their deep discontent with the status quo, we have taken note of these protests. And we have asked ourselves this question:

How can we make money off them?

The answer is the newly launched Goldman Sachs Global Rage Fund, whose investment objective is to monetize the Occupy Wall Street protests as they spread around the world. At Goldman, we recognize that the capitalist system as we know it is circling the drain – but there’s plenty of money to be made on the way down.

The Rage Fund will seek out opportunities to invest in products that are poised to benefit from the spreading protests, from police batons and barricades to stun guns and forehead bandages. Furthermore, as clashes between police and protesters turn ever more violent, we are making significant bets on companies that manufacture replacements for broken windows and overturned cars, as well as the raw materials necessary for the construction and incineration of effigies.

It would be tempting, at a time like this, to say “Let them eat cake.” But at Goldman, we are actively seeking to corner the market in cake futures. We project that through our aggressive market manipulation, the price of a piece of cake will quadruple by the end of 2011.

Please contact your Goldman representative for a full prospectus. As the world descends into a Darwinian free-for-all, the Goldman Sachs Rage Fund is a great way to tell the protesters, “Occupy this.” We haven’t felt so good about something we’ve sold since our souls.

Sincerely,

Lloyd Blankfein

Chairman, Goldman Sachs

But that someone who's making your coffee at Starbucks needs to be making enough money to live and thrive.

<snip>
between Sept. 22 and Oct. 5,
the two weeks before Occupy Portland's march through the city,
police made 2 arrests for vandalism;
between Oct. 6 and Thursday, the first two weeks of the encampment,
there were 11 arrests for vandalism.

Two weeks before the march, police arrested 2 people for disorderly conduct;
in the two weeks after the march around the square,
police made 16 disorderly conduct arrests.

Wayne Schissler walked the four blocks from his workplace
to the small Occupy Allentown protest to show the young demonstrators
that a tea party member is not a monster.
What he learned after a few hours of talk surprised him.

“They didn’t stink, and they weren’t on drugs,” he said. “I could see me being them, 30 years ago.”

Fifteen hundred miles away in rural Minnesota, Vas Littlecrow,
a tea party die-hard since the movement’s early days,
let the Internet noise about Occupy Wall Street wash over her,
leaving her alternately annoyed and intrigued.
She went on Google Plus to debate the Occupiers,
“and they started saying things that clicked with me,” she said.
“This was deja vu with how I got into the tea party.”
<snip>
No one expects the tea party and Occupy movements to merge forces,
but their adherents are discovering that their stories are often strikingly similar:
They searched for jobs and came up empty.
They found work, but their pay barely covered food and rent,
with nothing left over even to buy an old car.
They saw their towns empty out as young people moved away in search of money and meaning.
<snip>

What&#8217;s going on here? The answer, surely, is that Wall Street&#8217;s Masters of the Universe realize, deep down, how morally indefensible their position is. They&#8217;re not John Galt; they&#8217;re not even Steve Jobs. They&#8217;re people who got rich by peddling complex financial schemes that, far from delivering clear benefits to the American people, helped push us into a crisis whose aftereffects continue to blight the lives of tens of millions of their fellow citizens.

Yet they have paid no price. Their institutions were bailed out by taxpayers, with few strings attached. They continue to benefit from explicit and implicit federal guarantees &#8212; basically, they&#8217;re still in a game of heads they win, tails taxpayers lose. And they benefit from tax loopholes that in many cases have people with multimillion-dollar incomes paying lower rates than middle-class families.

Flint;766358 wrote:

Is the point of all this that "rich" = bad person? When I listen to some people talk, this seems to be an implicit assumption they have. This is, by the way, a horrible, horrible, destructive idea. And one that falls apart on even the slightest examination. But, critical thinking is never really "popular" is it?

ZenGum;766364 wrote:

... We want political power brought back to a more democratic level, from the massive bias in favour of the rich we have now. We want the tax loopholes and other financial advantages closed off, and we want politicians who are not too spineless to do this. We want reckless casino capitalism regulated so that international financiers can no longer gamble with the fate of the whole economy, keeping the winnings and dumping the losses on the tax payer.

Undertoad;766370 wrote:

I'd sign up for that.

Flint;766358 wrote:

Is the point of all this that "rich" = bad person?

Spexxvet;766387 wrote:

My understanding of it is that there is a huge, dangerous debt/deficit problem in the US, and the poor and middle class cannot fix it.

tw;766392 wrote:

Michelle Bachman is a perfect example of one so many approved of.

classicman;766402 wrote:

Whoa. Most of your post makes sense, but this part - "So many"
I'm still trying to figure out who elected her and why ANYONE is paying attention to her. She's batshit insane and should be rendered to the irrelevant pile.

classicman;766405 wrote:

I just don't see her as popular. I admit she got elected and all, but sheesh every time she opens her mouth more crazy comes out.

tw;766392 wrote:

snip--

Michelle Bachman is a perfect example of one so many approved of. She was asked how much of every dollar should go to taxes. She said none. In a next question, she then said defense spending should be increased. Why do so many believe this nonsense? So many even foolishly insist lower taxes mean more jobs. Well, tax cuts last decade resulted in how many more jobs this decade? At what point does the word 'liar' apply?

--snip

classicman;766459 wrote:

What were their bonuses when the company was doing well? Just curious. Occupy this :p:

BigV;766468 wrote:

the math says more tax revenue,

ZenGum;766501 wrote:

Maths is a liberal plot to take away your freedom. Addition is just a theory, and subtraction is a sin. Now, multiplication ...

ZenGum;766501 wrote:

Maths is a liberal plot to take away your freedom. Addition is just a theory, and subtraction is a sin. Now, multiplication ...

wrote:

Occupy Wall Street has captured the imagination and passion of millions of Americans who have lost hope that our nation&#8217;s policymakers are speaking for them. We support the protesters in their determination to hold Wall Street accountable and create good jobs.

We are proud that today on Wall Street, bus drivers, painters, nurses and utility workers will join students and homeowners, the unemployed and the underemployed to call for fundamental change.

[Trumka says the labor movement] &#8220;will open our union halls and community centers as well as our arms and our hearts to those with the courage to stand up and demand a better America.&#8221;

Lamplighter;766861 wrote:

Sam, I realize what you are discussing is not a laughing matter, but...
ever since New Hampshire started it's state lottery I've thought the
greatest irony of gambling in the US are the Native American casinos.

They should add a line to their logo:
"500 years of indigenous resistance"
.."50 years of ingenious resistance"

BigV;765995 wrote:

You might be seeking parity, or equality, but no one I've heard from the OWS movement has said that. I have heard that they're seeking less unfairness. I agree that there will never be parity, and that's fine. But that someone who's making your coffee at Starbucks needs to be making enough money to live and thrive. There needs to be greater opportunity for your barrista to improve their standard of living.

Starbucks are generally located in urban areas. Housing is expensive in the city. Transportation from areas with less expensive housing to the place where the Starbucks is located costs money, everything costs money. Starbucks is extremely progressive in that they offer their employees full health benefits, regardless of their employment status. But that's a rare exception. Healthcare costs money. The standard of living for someone making your coffee will be extremely restricted. For you to get your coffee made, you should support a system that makes possible for Starbucks to thrive, and that means happy productive employees.

It's in your self interest to do so.

&#8220;Throughout history, it has been the inaction of those who could have acted; the indifference of those who should have known better; the silence of the voice of justice when it mattered most; that has made it possible for evil to triumph.&#8221;

Haile Selassie

Undertoad;764054 wrote:

(Also, these numbers are for households instead of per-capita, which is misleading, as the household income may be a household of one, or an extended family.)

Undertoad;764036 wrote:

The gain from 2003-2007 is rather large, but if we continue this graph from 2007-2011, I assure you the drop-off will be similarly massive.

Over time, the Top 1% has claimed a bigger share of the income pie. In 2007, they earned 22.8% of the nation's income, more than double the amount in 1986, according to IRS data. The recession has since brought that slice down to just under 17% for 2009.

that slice down to just under 17% for 2009.

While those at the top have seen their incomes soar over time, middle-class incomes have stagnated.

"The higher up the income distribution you go, the more your income rose and the larger the share of total income gains went to your group," said Roberton Williams, a senior fellow at the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center.

But as corporate profits and productivity have increased, workers aren't reaping the benefits, said Edward Wolff, a New York University economics professor who specializes in income inequality. That's helping spark the movement, which has spread across the country.

"There is a lot of anger and it's for a very good reason," Wolff said. "If all of the income gain goes to the top, there's not much left to go to the rest of the people."

Undertoad wrote:

(Also, these numbers are for households instead of per-capita, which is misleading, as the household income may be a household of one, or an extended family.)

See the "earners per household" row.

classicman;766987 wrote:

hmm...

TheMercenary;767140 wrote:

That picture rocks....

Undertoad wrote:

I'm saying that I think the original graph producers decided on households because it shows a wider disparity. This stuff is hard for us laymen to figure.

SamIam;767152 wrote:

Oh, you graduated from that same institution of higher learning which discourages critical thinking, too? That explains much. :right:

DanaC;767156 wrote:

How is it a failed plan?

TheMercenary;767160 wrote:

Even if you confiscate all the money from the top 1% it will not pay for the spending that has happened since Obama took office. We have become an entitlement society. Everyone wants the federal government to provide everything for them, free healthcare, free education, free, free, free. As long as someone else pays for it. But when you talk about a consumption tax or a tax where everyone pays into it then you get the whine about making someone else to pay. Yea, lets get the 53% who already pay the most pay more, just don't take it out of my pocket. These protests are becoming more comical by the day with some knew rant or some group wanting more...

DanaC;767161 wrote:

But you don't have all that stuff for free. And the wealthy haven;t been subjected to higher taxes. What redistribution of wealth has occurred in the last ten years has done so in the other direction. What the protestors are seeking hasn't been tried in America for a very long time, therefore it isn't a 'failed' anything. It's a hypothetical maybe.

CHICAGO, October 25, 2011 &#8211; Organizing a global anti-capitalist revolution is not as easy as one might think &#8211; at least that is what Occupy Wall Street leaders are discovering.

From money squabbles and freeloading ex-cons to the complaints of New Yorker residents and the specter of public health code violations, protesters are being given a crash course in Government 101, whether they like it or not.

Recently, Occupy Wall Street organizers have found themselves besieged with problems from all corners. Questions are now being raised about the $500,000 in donations Occupy Wall Street&#8217;s Finance Committee has collected since the protests began.

The irony of the situation is not lost on Occupy Wall Street campers, who claim that Finance has yet to &#8220;redistribute the wealth.&#8221; According to news sources, drummers requested $8,000 to replace musical instruments that had been destroyed by vandals in Zuccotti. Occupy Wall Street leadership denied the request and now some protesters are threatening a split


Associated Press
&#8220;I hope Mayor Bloomberg gets an injunction and demands to see the movement&#8217;s books. We need to know how much money we really have and where it&#8217;s going,&#8221; said disgruntled protester Bryan Smith.

Smith, who has been raising money for Occupy Wall Street, also criticizes the lack of basic provisions for his fellow protesters. &#8220;So many people need things, and they should not be going without basic comfort items -- and I was told to fill out paperwork. Paperwork! Are they the government now?&#8221; said Smith.

But Occupy Wall Street&#8217;s financial red flags and internal conflicts are just the tip of the protester iceberg. By offering free food, shelter, and medical care to anyone who signs up, the organization has also made itself a beacon to every homeless person - and every freeloader.

Scores of vagrants and criminals have unofficially joined the protesters&#8217; ranks. One of them, ex-con Matthew Maloney, 49, was released from prison on September 30. Maloney, a convicted thief, has spent the last three decades in and out of prison and says he learned about the protests on television.

But others are here because they cannot afford their rent or do not like the homeless shelters.

The strange brew of humanity has created unexpected security issues for the "Occupiers." Public drunkenness, knife fights, and theft are more and more commonplace. With the seasonal shift, campers are also dealing with dropping temperatures and rain. Dry clothing &#8211; even socks &#8211; are in short supply, and protesters are irritated with the "takers."

"If you're going to come here and get our food, bedding and clothing, have books and medical supplies for no charge, they need to give back," said Lauren Digioia, 26, told the New York Daily News."There's a lot of takers here and they feel entitled."

But, Tea Party leaders argue, isn&#8217;t this socialism at work? Inadvertently, Occupy Wall Street has created what it says it is demanding, albeit on a much smaller scale: free food and shelter for the less fortunate and free medical care for all. It is a system where some are working and others, taking. Even theft, arguably, is a &#8220;redistribution of wealth&#8221; the campers have listed in their anti-Wall Street demands.

"People are waking up to the plain facts that socialism does not work. There is only so much you can "redistribute" before there is nothing left," said Joe Terrell of Northern Illinois Tea Party. "A popular paraphrase of Prime Minister Thatcher says, 'The only problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of everyone else's money.' I think that quote sums it up perfectly."

But I think a far more important question to ask and answer is about the lowest two quintiles. Forty percent of our population is living on these kinds of dollars.

OUR REPRESENTATIVE GOVERNMENT DOES NOT REPRESENT THESE PEOPLE

IT IS ENTIRELY IN OUR SELF INTEREST, ALL OF US, TO RAISE THE STANDARD OF LIVING FOR OUR FELLOW CITIZENS AT THIS END OF THE SCALE, THE "LESS FORTUNATE".

Where will he eat? Jail? Under a bridge? At a shelter?

TheMercenary;767155 wrote:

The wealth envy protests are not going to change a dam thing.

Wealth redistribution is a failed plan to fix what ails us.

BigV;767168 wrote:

More hypocrisy.

classicman;767116 wrote:

Easy Sam ...
I just thought his was an interesting tale. Primarily BECAUSE of when he went to school. (president at the time irrelevant)

I can associate with him on a couple things. I too went back to school that year and graduated in 2000 with 2 degrees. I worked 3 jobs to support my family and pay my own way at the time. Yet here I sit day after day looking for a real job and trying to figure out wtf I did wrong.


ETA - thanks for helping to support me Mr. noideawhoyouare. ;)

TheMercenary;767162 wrote:

The wealthy pay almost all of the total tax in this country now, federal, state, and local combined.

What are the protesters seeking? There are a hundred answers to that question.

But how many people know that households making less than $75,000 collectively paid more federal income tax than those making $1 million or more?

Or that income taxed at the next-to-lowest rate, 15 percent, brought in more government revenue than all capital gains taxes plus the two top brackets, which apply only to the top 2 percent of earners?

Or that almost half of the top 1 percent made less than $500,000? Or that five out of six made less than $1 million?

The fact is that the government relies far more on the bottom 99 percent than the top 1 percent for federal income taxes.

The wealthy pay almost all of the total tax in this country now, federal, state, and local combined.

What are the protesters seeking? There are a hundred answers to that question.

I want to say "Liar", but I'll content myself by saying "Cite".

SamIam;767171 wrote:

But the man in the pic HAS a job and calls those who DON'T have a job in these difficult times worthless blood suckers he resents having to support.

I'm supposed to give up MY social security and MY medical care for this spiteful jerk? I don't think so.

Me and thousands if not millions like me. Mad? Mad doesn't even begin to describe my feelings. :mad:

TheMercenary;767181 wrote:

BLAH BLAH BLAH ...

classicman;767224 wrote:

Take it to the tax thread. >>>>>>

Pico and ME;767220 wrote:

Classic, she is just referring to the picture, not you because you posted it.

SamIam;767229 wrote:

Exactly, Pico! I was referring to the comments on the sign that guy held - not Classic, personally.

classicman;767235 wrote:

Dude - that's uncalled for.

classicman;767239 wrote:

She didn't sling any shit on/at you. Why'd you have to take it immediately personal?

TheMercenary;767237 wrote:

Times are tough for a lot of people. I am completely sympathetic to that.
.

DanaC;767273 wrote:

Really? Cause you don't sound like you have a fucking ounce of sympathy. Cry me a river? She did it all right. She followed the fucking master plan and did it all right until fate, or fortune or random chance threw an impassable block into her path.

Cry me a river? Her career, her health, her future and current security, all snatched from her leaving her wholly and inextricably bound up in state assistance, and there's almost nothing she can do about it.

The Right want to strip her of what little assistance society has deemed she 'deserves' and you have the fucking brass balls to say cry me a river?


Fuck Merc. You just took a nose dive in my estimation. Seriously, where's your human warmth gone?

I am done with this discussion. I'm not coming in here any more, it just winds me the fuck up.

DanaC;767273 wrote:

You just took a nose dive in my estimation. Seriously, where's your human warmth gone?

TheMercenary;767233 wrote:

Cry me a GD River......

TheMercenary;767154 wrote:

No, but thanks for the pic!

DanaC;767273 wrote:

Really? Cause you don't sound like you have a fucking ounce of sympathy. Cry me a river? She did it all right. She followed the fucking master plan and did it all right until fate, or fortune or random chance threw an impassable block into her path.

Cry me a river? Her career, her health, her future and current security, all snatched from her leaving her wholly and inextricably bound up in state assistance, and there's almost nothing she can do about it.

The Right want to strip her of what little assistance society has deemed she 'deserves' and you have the fucking brass balls to say cry me a river?


Fuck Merc. You just took a nose dive in my estimation. Seriously, where's your human warmth gone?

I am done with this discussion. I'm not coming in here any more, it just winds me the fuck up.

NEW YORK &#8212; The "Occupy" protest sites are becoming preoccupied
by another urgent issue: growing crime, from assault and robbery to groping.
There's been a spate of unsavory acts &#8212; from New York to New Mexico and California.

It highlights the challenge of monitoring an anti-establishment movement with no formal leadership.
In New York, demonstrators are mixed with people who drop by solely for food and comfort.

They camp out under the watchful eyes of a security force.
Besides the police, there's a volunteer safety patrol.
It even includes former gang members, turned into security consultants.

Pico and ME;767616 wrote:

Wonderful discussion about OWS on the Charlie Rose Show.

classicman;767620 wrote:

corrected link here

Mod - please fix and delete my post thanks

This is also a good one

SamIam;767382 wrote:

So, there we have it. Merc's final comment on low income children, seniors, and disabled who will be forced onto the streets in great numbers with no where to go and nothing to eat and no medical care.

I'm beginning to think that you are very clueless or very mean. For your sake. I hope its clueless, although ignorance can often cause as much or as more harm as anything else.

TheMercenary;767810 wrote:

Ummmm.... I never said that, those are your words. Or maybe you support that dumbassed VP who repeatedly states that more women will be raped if we don't pass President Zero's Jobs Bill? Or are you clueless or worse ignorant about the issue?

Actually, no, I think welfare is a necessary evil of all civil societies, ours just happens to bread generations who learn to game the system.

tw;767821 wrote:

We are breading generations of gamers. Yeph. You first read it here.

SamIam;767824 wrote:

Cry me a GD river, Merc. :eyebrow:

J.P. Morgan joins U.S. Bancorp, Citigroup Inc., PNC Financial Services Group Inc., KeyCorp
and other large banks that have said in recent days that they won't impose monthly fees on debit cards.
None of those banks said they made their decisions because of the outcry over Bank of America's fees.

"We looked at all options and quickly decided it didn't fit with our overall strategy,"
said David Bowen, who runs the consumer-product business at Cleveland-based Key,
which ranks among the 20 largest banks in the country.

The latest arrests came early this morning in Portland, Ore.,
where protesters remained in a park in the affluent Pearl District
past the midnight curfew, after city officials had told them not to expand
their encampments beyond the parks they had already occupied.
<snip>
There was no violence, as protesters showed no resistance,
and most went limp so police had to carry or drag them away.

Lamplighter;768352 wrote:

The news media is headlining arrests of OWS protestors in various cities.

But the protesters and officers weren’t all business.

“When they started chanting ‘You’re sexy, you’re cute, take off the riot suit’,
the protesters and officers were chuckling.”

After the protesters sitting were arrested, remaining supporters flooded the square and
continued to protest until the park re-opened at 5AM with no further arrests.

wrote:

DENVER -- After violent clashes with police Saturday, Occupy Denver demonstrators focused Sunday on getting arrested activists out of jail and promoting a peaceful message.

By late Sunday night, Occupy Denver organizers said all but one of the 20 protesters arrested Saturday had been bonded out of jail with donations from volunteers.

They also said the National Lawyers Guild mobilized more than 45 attorneys willing to represent those arrested for free.

David Blessing was one of the protesters who bonded out Sunday night after being arrested for failing to comply with a police order.

"I hope our actions will help the American people see how determined we are," Blessing said. "The police were under orders. They do their job. The problem isn't with the police. It's with the people who tell the police what to do, and that's the politicians."

Meanwhile, protestors held a candlelight peace vigil Sunday night, blaming police for the chaos and accusing officers of excessive force.

henry quirk;768628 wrote:

Essentially, this is the way things are..

henry quirk;768866 wrote:

If one monkey has access to, say, 400 million bananas, I'm thinking he can afford to give the finger to all those impoverished, occupant, monkeys...after all, 20 million bananas buys a helluva lot of gorillas, each more than capable of dealing with anything the occupants monkeys can foist up.

Yes, Virginia: it really does come down to 'might makes the right'.

As I say up-thread, 'how they (the banana-having monkeys) got the bananas (legally, illegally; morally, immorally) is irrelevant.'



In the same way: the envy of the banana-less monkeys is morally neutral (amoral).

I don't decry the occupants for envy, only for their *dishonesty.

They dress up 'envy' in pretty clothes and call it 'right' and 'moral'.

Just pony up with the truth, for a change, that being, 'we want your bananas!'









*Also irrelevant...I'm just sayin'... ;)

henry quirk;768839 wrote:

"No its not."

Yes, it is.

#

"You can't generalize all of OWS as that, not even close."

Yes, I can.

All: irrelevant.

henry quirk;769013 wrote:

I'm not cynical: just realistic.

Reality is amoral...implement 'fairness' as you can and like...I see the practicality of it (and the trap!)...I'm not, however, believing 'fairness' is anything other than another model that only works to the extent it's enforced.

As of today: 'fairness' has a less than stellar track record as model (useful fiction, but still fiction).

*shrug*

henry quirk;768981 wrote:

HA!

All: irrelevant.

I get that's what irks you (and many others): so what?

1 November 2011 – Oakland, Ca.

We represent the 645 police officers who work hard every day to protect the citizens of Oakland. We, too, are the 99% fighting for better working conditions, fair treatment and the ability to provide a living for our children and families. We are severely understaffed with many City beats remaining unprotected by police during the day and evening hours.

As your police officers, we are confused.

On Tuesday, October 25th, we were ordered by Mayor Quan ([COLOR="Red"]Democrat[/COLOR]) to clear out the encampments at Frank Ogawa Plaza and to keep protesters out of the Plaza. We performed the job that the Mayor’s Administration asked us to do, being fully aware that past protests in Oakland have resulted in rioting, violence and destruction of property.

Then, on Wednesday, October 26th, the Mayor allowed protesters back in – to camp out at the very place they were evacuated from the day before.

To add to the confusion, the Administration issued a memo on Friday, October 28th to all City workers in support of the “Stop Work” strike scheduled for Wednesday, giving all employees, except for police officers, permission to take the day off.

That’s hundreds of City workers encouraged to take off work to participate in the protest against “the establishment.” But aren’t the Mayor and her Democratic Administration part of the establishment they are paying City employees to protest? Is it the City’s intention to have City employees on both sides of a skirmish line?

It is all very confusing to us.

Meanwhile, a message has been sent to all police officers: Everyone, including those who have the day off, must show up for work on Wednesday. This is also being paid for by Oakland taxpayers. Last week’s events alone cost Oakland taxpayers over $1 million.

The Mayor and her Administration are beefing up police presence for Wednesday’s work strike they are encouraging and even “staffing,” spending hundreds of thousands of taxpayer dollars for additional police presence – at a time when the Mayor is also asking Oakland residents to vote on an $80 parcel tax to bail out the City’s failing finances.

All of these mixed messages are confusing.

We love Oakland and just want to do our jobs to protect Oakland residents. We respectfully ask the citizens of Oakland to join us in demanding that our City officials, including Mayor Quan, make sound decisions and take responsibility for these decisions. Oakland is struggling – we need real leaders NOW who will step up and lead – not send mixed messages. Thank you for listening.

Is it the City&#8217;s intention to have City employees on both sides of a skirmish line?

classicman;769263 wrote:

meh - we can't paint the whole dept by the actions of one or at most, a few.

classicman;769529 wrote:

On the other hand the protesters were repeatedly warned to clear the area. They refused. They knew what was going to happen if they didn't. IF they had, perhaps he wouldn't have been hit as no tear gas would have been necessary.

For locating its Headquarters in Center City, Comcast was given 42.75 million dollars from the State, and pays no taxes for the first 10 years. The construction firm that built the Headquarters, Liberty Property Trust, received 30 million dollars from the State. These subsidies and tax cuts could save the AdultBasic program that Governor Corbett has gutted, which provided over 45,000 low-income Pennsylvanians with health insurance.

TheMercenary;769679 wrote:

Thank God it has started to Snow in a big way....

Undertoad;769708 wrote:

Apparently Denver is occupied by three tents and six tarps.

SamIam;769718 wrote:

The grab for money and power by the wealthy few at the expense of the many, facilitated by the bought and paid for congress has finally been too much for America. Rural Colorado has traditionally been a Conservative stronghold, yet tonight I saw a flier advertising a meeting to protest the corporate take over of Congress in the little town of Mancos, Colorado, population 1,500. If that's not grass roots, I don't know what is.

How dare Congress take food from the children of the unemployed who have been forced to go on food stamps? Meanwhile, our president met with corporate executives today for a $195.00 a plate lunch. GOP stands for guardians of privilege and the Democrats are no better despite all their pretenses. How dare our own government consign a significant portion of our children to eat nothing but ramen noodles? How dare they?

How dare Congress take the slender housing assistance of low income disabled Americans and low income seniors and turn us out on the streets while they remain royally aloof from the rest of us in their million dollar gated communities? Do you know how much impact housing assistance for seniors and the disabled has on the national debt? Perhaps one percent. If that. How dare Congress place ideology over human beings? How dare they?

Corporate Government is rapidly creating an ever expanding class of Americans with nothing to lose. Where are we going to go? Where else but the streets? Occupy America!

ZenGum;769752 wrote:

People with nothing to loose are dangerous.

Lamplighter;769818 wrote:

If the general public reads only today's headlines, I'm convinced
they will be mislead to believe the entire Occupy Oakland went badly.

tw;769823 wrote:

Never forget why the government must cut a $trilllion from the budget. We are now paying a $trillion for Mission Accomplished. Who lied about that war? Who gets to suffer for it?

classicman;769905 wrote:

We are also paying for loaning money to people who could not afford the loans they got and/or were too ignorant to understand what they signed on for and the subsequent bailout of those banks.

Brianna;769796 wrote:

/janis/Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose/joplin/

TheMercenary;769947 wrote:

Those folks in LA are really doing the protests justice.
When is the Rape count going to go up?

It has been one month since the Los Angeles General Assembly
began occupying City Hall in Los Angeles, California.

The "Occupy Movement" as a whole, starting with Occupy Wall St, has
already made considerable headway and have accomplished much:
we have altered the dialectic of the mainstream media,
we have applied pressure to all branches of government to reflect
the will of the people, and has expanded rapidly.

On November 5th, we will do everything we can to
shut down all major investment banks with a nation-wide boycott.
On November 11th, we will take to the streets en masse.
The global revolution is at hand.
We will keep growing until we have world-wide consensus.

The number of protesters and tents occupying L.A.&#8217;s City Hall grounds
has doubled since the occupation began the first weekend in October,
and strong support from local unions has strengthened the action.
While there has been no clear decision made in the Occupy L.A. General Assembly
on how the movement would react to an attempt to repress the occupation,
many are already mobilizing for solidarity actions with the Oakland movement on Nov. 2.

In response to Mayor Villaraigosa's and other CA officials
comments made earlier today regarding Occupy LA:

We have enjoyed a very good relationship with the City of Los Angeles,
whose council 2 weeks ago announced their support for Occupy LA.
As recently as this morning, Councilman Rosendahl reconfirmed his support of the occupiers.
We sincerely hope that a positive working relationship between city officials and the LAPD continues.
We appreciate Mayor Villaraigosa's statement of respect and Senator Feinstein
for acknowledging our first amendment rights.

classicman;770108 wrote:

Dunno, but Moore flying around to visit all the different sites isn't helping, in my estimation. He is as divisive as they come.

tw;770140 wrote:

Pollsters are also detecting the foundation of another movement. Unusual extreme hate has been detected in another group. Some oldest voters who are typically Republicans are expressing more than just opinions on what has happened to the nation. Nothing from this group has yet jelled into an actual movement or demonstrations. But the emotions exist to make it possible.

Pico and ME;770123 wrote:

He's not divisive, he just has a strong viewpoint and a strong following. Fahrenheit 9/11 was the highest-grossing documentary of all time, and Bowling for Columbine and Sicko also place in the top ten highest-grossing documentaries.

tw;770140 wrote:

The movement appears to have an even bigger problem. Clinton defined it weeks ago on a talk show. The movement needs a message. It has not defined a specific problem or enemy. A general dislike of something vague called Wall Street, although pointed in a right direction, does not define an actual problem(s) or enemy.

SamIam;770142 wrote:

Could you give us a link?

Lamplighter;770147 wrote:

Sam, were you just being ironic with that link ?



(Server Not Found)

ZenGum;770232 wrote:

The message?

There are lots of specific things that people are angry about, which does lead to this 'no clear message' appearance.

Most of these specific complaints can be traced back to the way the political arm of government (as opposed to the administrative arm) is functioning (or disfunctioning) at present.

And this is traced back to one complaint that almost everyone at the Occupy movements seems to share. The super-rich have too much influence in politics - so much that they have essentially taken control and are running it for themselves. The majority of western governments, which are supposed to be various kinds of democratic republics, have been corrupted into plutocracies with regular show elections.

Most people accept that money will always bring influence, and that this cannot be eliminated entirely. However, it CAN be reduced, in some cases by a great deal. This, I think, is the core demand of the Occupy movement.


tl;dr version: Less plutocracy, more democracy.

classicman;770260 wrote:

Then they all better start going after their governmental reps and stop wasting time on wall street and/or whatever. THAT is where the change will have to come from.
The Big bad corp execs will laugh at them in the cold rain and snow.

HungLikeJesus;770291 wrote:

That's the problem - they prefer used 10s and 20s, with non-consecutive serial numbers.

SamIam;770290 wrote:

What good would it do to go after the government reps?

classicman;770473 wrote:

:eyebrow:

They're the ones who can enact change.
You really think a thousand people out front of their office is gonna be ignored? F*kkers gotta leave sometime...

It would seem that Mayor Michael Bloomberg would be a natural foe
for protesters now in their seventh week on Wall Street's footstep
But the billionaire mayor has thus far avoided taking decisive action
against the encampment protesting economic inequality and corporate greed.

Bloomberg may not be able to keep that distance for long, however.
Local officials displeased with noise and sanitation complaints
at the site have been notching up the pressure on City Hall.

And park owners may yet choose to clear out the group
on trespassing charges, causing a potential showdown with police
<snip>

The mayor has made clear he fears that anger driven by economic
dissatisfaction can breed chaos.
He has declared violence that befell California will not happen in New York.

That's part of the reason the mayor won't step in to evict,
said one of the protesters, Justin Stone-Diaz.
"He may try, but he also knows that if something goes wrong
we can't control what happens," he said.

classicman;770496 wrote:

I hope that post was in jest, because it would be all over the internet.
The MSM would have a friggin field day with that move.

&#8220;What we are seeing is a change for the worse,&#8221; said Mr. Fortin, (Mayor) who had previously been supportive of the protest movement. &#8220;It&#8217;s starting to deteriorate...We&#8217;re not sure that what is happening there now is safe.&#8221;

The city is monitoring the situation on an hourly basis, the mayor said, and is considering going to court for an injunction to have the encampment disbanded. &#8220;You don&#8217;t want to wait for someone to get hurt.&#8221;

&#8220;You don&#8217;t want to wait for someone to get hurt.&#8221;

ZenGum;770835 wrote:

Here's a more modest proposal.

The protest has two locations, and must swap back and forth. Three days here, three days there. Maybe a week.

It would stop it from becoming a homeless refuge, without stifling dissent.

SAN DIEGO (CBS) &#8212; A pair of Southland street cart vendors who were forced to shut down their businesses after &#8220;Occupy&#8221; protesters vandalized their carts are hoping to get some help from local residents.

KNX 1070&#8242;s Tom Reopelle reports a fundraiser in the Gas Lamp district in San Diego on Monday night is aimed at helping two vendors get back on their feet.




The coffee and hot dog carts were located in Civic Center Plaza, the same location as the Occupy San Diego protesters.

That group first settled in to the plaza Oct. 7 and set up a tent city which has since twice been taken down by police.

Coffee cart owner Linda Jenson and hot dog cart operators Letty and Pete Soto said they initially provided free food and drink to demonstrators, but when they stopped, the protesters became violent.

And according to one city councilman, bodily fluids were used in the attacks.

&#8220;Both carts have had items stolen, have had their covers vandalized with markings and graffiti, as well as one of the carts had urine and blood splattered on it,&#8221; said Councilman Carl DeMaio.

wrote:

OCCUPY DENVER ELECTS LEADER

In response to Denver Mayor Michael Hancock’s insistence that Occupy Denver choose leadership to deal with City and State officials, and drawing inspiration from the notion that corporations are people, Occupy Denver’s General Assembly has elected a leader: Shelby, a three year old Border Collie. “Shelby is closer to a person than any corporation: She can bleed, she can breed, and she can show emotion. Either Shelby is a person, or corporations aren’t people,” said a Shelby supporter at the time of her election.

Occupy Denver reserves the right to alter leadership status, but for now, Shelby exhibits heart, warmth, and an appreciation for the group over personal ambition that Occupy Denver members feel are sorely lacking in the leaders some of them have voted for on national, state, and local levels. Accordingly, Occupy Denver looks forward to communication with Mayor Hancock and Colorado Governor John Hickenlooper sometime this week to introduce their leadership.

Newly-elected leader Shelby will be leading this Saturday’s Occupy Denver march against Corporate Personhood, and invites all other civic minded dogs (and their leash-holders) to join.

- END -

My opinion on this situation today.

I think it's time for the occupiers to make a stand, or go home. This story is becoming less newsworthy by the minute and they're losing whatever support they had.

If they're going to revolt, it's time to bring out the big guns.

infinite monkey;771443 wrote:

Pico mentioned in the US election thread that she thinks some of yesterday's victories (to our sensibilities anyway) were a referendum on the status quo, the far right politics and the tea party.

Of course it is. And I believe this Occupy thing has opened people's eyes. "Oh, you mean when they tell me I should feel guilty and shut up it's because I'm lazy and fruitless and if I had only TRIED HARDER... they're lying? All this time I thought it was ME."

Which leads to more discussion and more awareness about things like...you know, voting. I think people got really complacent after Obama was elected...two years later Ohio forgot to vote again.

For the Occupiers to suddenly say "OK, done sending a message, let's go home" then they look like fools, like the ne'er-do-wells they're painted as, so I hope they're as strong (inner strength) as I perceive them to be.

THey're not going to pull out a bunch of pitchforks and storm the castle. ;)

Aliantha;771447 wrote:

I understand what you're saying. I just see them getting less news coverage here, and if they're not in the news, what's the point?

Aliantha;771544 wrote:

There are OWS protesters here too as I mentioned earlier in this thread. The only coverage they're getting now is about how they're desecrating war memorials and killing all the grass in the parks.

This is a world wide movement. It's not just about the USA. There may be separate goals, but it all started from the same movement.

Cyber Wolf wrote:

They didn't mass-elect people into the system who could carry their message, but they did gather support from people who were already in and could make things happen. It took several years, but it happened.

and so should not be surprised when the police (whose job it is to enforce laws) respond (not to say they don't sometimes overdo it but there you go).

In seeking an active form of civil disobedience, one may choose to deliberately break certain laws, such as by forming a peaceful blockade or occupying a facility illegally, though sometimes violence has been known to occur. Protesters practice this non-violent form of civil disorder with the expectation that they will be arrested. Others also expect to be attacked or even beaten by the authorities. Protesters often undergo training in advance on how to react to arrest or to attack, so that they will do so in a manner that quietly or limply resists without threatening the authorities

Cyber Wolf;771618 wrote:

The Tea Party got that part right about their movement at least... most of the people who are associated with the Tea Party who got elected into regional/state rep offices last year were brought up from local grassroots to where they are now.

piercehawkeye45;771652 wrote:

Even though I do agree that OWS needs to change its tactics, I wouldn't recommend they centralized or completely switch over to the Tea Party tactics.

piercehawkeye45;771652 wrote:

They need to diversify their strategy. They need to keep a presence protesting but they also need to organize in ways that can influence politics as well. They need to convince politicians, the rich, and other Americans that our current financial setup is unsustainable, or at least inefficient, and something needs to be done about it or else everyone suffers. Witty and emotional cardboard signs will just not cut it. I do agree with their decentralized setup, OWS will not get hijacked this way, but there needs to be a few respectable influential people that will speak out and agree with the OWS movement but not claim to represent it.

In 1984, the age-based wealth gap had been 10:1. By 2009, it had ballooned to 47:1.

xoxoxoBruce;771227 wrote:

The message from the protesters seems garbled. Since they don't understand the big picture, (who does?), they can only talk about how it's affecting them personally. But they do know the system is fucked up, so they protest, hoping to raise awareness that the people can force the country back on course if they stick together and work for it.

This frustrates merc, and FOX News, because it doesn't give them a single point they can spin against. FOX is double pissed because their own tactics are being used against them.

OAKLAND (CBS/AP) &#8212; A group of Oakland anti-Wall Street protesters who blame large banks for the economic downturn have decided that one of those institutions is the best place to stash their money for now.

Protesters at an Occupy Oakland meeting Monday voted to deposit a $20,000 donation into a Wells Fargo account. The move comes just days after one of Wells Fargo&#8217;s branches was vandalized during a massive downtown demonstration.

Cyber Wolf;771618 wrote:

If they want big money out of politics, they need to go in via the political route and they can only do that if they develop a strategy for it. Drum circles and marches get attention, and a protest like this does need attention, but they don't change any policies.

“Portland’s mayor on Thursday ordered one of the largest
Occupy Wall Street camps in the country to shut down this weekend
over concerns about unhealthy conditions and the encampment’s attraction of
drug users and thieves, but a faction of protesters pledged to resist any eviction attempts.

SamIam;772049 wrote:

Our strategy is to introduce an amendment to the constitution which will overturn the Supreme's Court's ruling that corporations are people.

Gotta run. Occupy Cortez's picketing starts in an hour. ;)

OAKLAND, California (AP) &#8211; City leaders across the U.S. are feeling increasing pressure to shut down Occupy protest encampments after two men died in shootings and two others were found dead inside their tents this week.

SamIam;772049 wrote:

Our strategy is to introduce an amendment to the constitution which will overturn the Supreme's Court's ruling that corporations are people.

TheMercenary;772203 wrote:

Well that didn't take long.......

Occupy protests face new issue in deaths

TheMercenary;772258 wrote:

What do you mean, "Not at the locations"?

Lamplighter;772260 wrote:

Not to speak for HM, but none of the reports of violence that I've read have actually said a violent act was at or inside the Occupy encampments.
Certainly for PDX, the news reports have always said "near"

Maybe it's a small point, but for PDX news that is a major concession.
Our news media have taken the Police Association's hard line descriptors on every occasion.

Undertoad;772262 wrote:

What you really want is for the (seemingly large amount of)
violent acts to not cloud the message of the overall protest.
But to try to do this by whitewashing the events,
attempting to "manage the narrative" is not the right way, I think.

The dude came for the protest, lobbed a molotov cocktail into the PDX WTC,
retreated into the camp and was arrested for starting fires there.

Was it better because he didn't lob his grenade into the camp?
No...
Does the story ring false because the reporter quoted the police involved? No...

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2011/11/police_arrest_man_at_occupy_po.html

It's a sad fact that civil disobedience attracts a lot of scumbags and morons,
but that's part of the whole thing, and can't be so easily dismissed.
Attempting to manage this problem by saying it doesn't exist
will only attract more attention to the next event.

A 29-year-old man was arrested this morning inside the Occupy Portland encampment,
police said, on suspicion of throwing a Molotov cocktail onto a staircase at the World Trade Center last night.
No one was injured in the incident, which scorched a staircase between two escalators at the center,
located at 121 Southwest Salmon Street.

Paul Corah, a Portland Fire Bureau spokesman, said Hodson was responsible
for the incendiary device as well as separate act of vandalism to the Smart Park parking structure
at 123 Southwest Jefferson Street.

He said Hodson was arrested and charged with multiple arson related crimes on Sunday evening
in connection with three separate rubbish fires set on Southwest Taylor Street
between Southwest 3rd and 5th avenues.
Agents from the federal bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms assisted in the investigation.

On Monday, Hodson told The Oregonian that he had just gotten into town
over the weekend from Redding, Calif., and decided to join Occupy Portland,
where he had taken it upon himself to greet people as they entered Lownsdale Square.

He said he found “a lack of cohesion” within the encampment,
which had allowed it to become “an eyesore for the community,
instead of something to be celebrated.”

Also today, police said they cited Justin Desantis for having alcohol
inside the Occupy Portland camp at Lownsdale Square and Chapman parks.
Desantis was excluded from the parks.

Another man, Shawn Kimmel, 31, was arrested for disorderly conduct,
possession of methamphetamine, carrying a concealed weapon
after officers contacted him for his aggressive behavior at the camp.
Kimmel was also arrested on an outstanding warrant for failure to appear
on a criminal trespassing charge out of Clackamas County.

Stormieweather;772286 wrote:

ETA: All the trespass charges are part and parcel of protesting so you lost me right there, Merc.

Does the news report in your link really sound like an valid, accurate characterization of the month-long activities of the Occupy Portland protestors ?

Lamplighter;772315 wrote:

....misleading
headlines and/or visuals can sway public opinion.

According to Portland Police, crime in the area of the Occupy protest is up 18 percent compared to last year.

In response, Portland Mayor Sam Adams wrote an open letter to the protesters, saying the current situation is not sustainable.

TheMercenary;772332 wrote:

According to Portland Police, crime in the area of
the Occupy protest is up 18 percent compared to last year.

In response, Portland Mayor Sam Adams wrote an open letter
to the protesters saying the current situation is not sustainable.

http://www.flashalertnewswire.net/images/news/2011-11/3056/49171/October_stat_comp.pdf

http://www.examiner.com/conservative-in-spokane/occupy-portland-becoming-unhinged-as-arrests-continue-crime-up-18-percent

ZenGum;772360 wrote:

Most of the people at Occupy movements are there with the aim of saving society, not preying upon it. The actions of a few, who may just be using the crowd for their own purposes, should not blind us to that.



ETA: actually came here to say ... feel the love, man:
[ATTACH]35310[/ATTACH]

Lamplighter;772384 wrote:

Ok, we can play quote a % game

Everyone can interpret the map as they please, but it's my opinion that if Occupy Portland caused such an increase, it would surely appear as a different pattern on the map above, centered on the encampment area.

Merc, my hope is that you're take another look at these links,
and maybe change your views a bit.... Sure, that'll happen !

Undertoad;772443 wrote:

It's not peaceful. We just want it to be because that's the narrative.

As Congress wrestles with how to bring down the historically high budget deficit, Sen. Tom Coburn (R-Okla.) today released a report that showed that under the current tax code, millionaires are receiving billions in federal aid.

&#8220;From tax write-offs for gambling losses, vacation homes, and luxury yachts to subsidies for their ranches and estates, the government is subsidizing the lifestyles of the rich and famous,&#8221; Corburn said in a release accompanying the report. &#8220;Multi-millionaires are even receiving government checks for not working.&#8221;

These billions of dollars for millionaires include $74 million of unemployment checks, $316 million in farm subsidies, $89 million for preservation of ranches and estates, $9 billion of retirement checks, $75.6 million in residential energy tax credits and $7.5 million to compensate for damages caused by emergencies to property that should have been insured, according to Coburn&#8217;s report.

In total, more than $9.5 billion in government benefits have been paid to millionaires since 2003, the report said. Additionally, millionaires borrowed $16 million in government-backed education loans to attend college. On average, each year, the report found that millionaires enjoy benefits from tax giveaways and federal grant programs totaling $30 billion. As a result, almost 1,500 millionaires paid no federal income tax in 2009.

&#8220;We should never demonize those who are successful,&#8221; Coburn&#8217;s report said. &#8220;Nor should we pamper them with unnecessary welfare to create an appearance everyone is benefiting from federal programs.

&#8220;The cost of this largess will thus be shared by those struggling today and the next generation who will inherit $15 trillion of debt that threatens the future of the American Dream,&#8221; the report said. &#8220;These consequences are the results of shortsighted spending and tax policies like those outlined in this report that should be eliminated.&#8221;

Lamplighter;772384 wrote:

Merc, my hope is that you're take another look at these links,
and maybe change your views a bit.... Sure, that'll happen ! :right:
.

Right up until the point where they were told to go home, the Occutards in Manhattan were preparing for &#8220;a block party the 1% will never forget.&#8221; This block party was to take place on Thursday and was expected to be huge with help of their labor union partners. Yup, the AFL-CIO, the Service Employees International Union and the Laborers&#8217; International Union of North America will take part in Thursday&#8217;s &#8220;day of action,&#8221; where they intended to shut down Wall Street by holding a street carnival.
Occupy Wall Street spokesman Ed Needham said, "I think we're certainly going into this with our eyes wide open, but (the march is) to provoke ideas and discussion, not to provoke any violent reactions.&#8221; Too bad the Occupiers seem to be &#8220;better&#8221; at provoking violence than they do provoking ideas or solutions or rational discussion.
I&#8217;m sure Obama&#8217;s Children will be announcing some time today that they&#8217;re going to go ahead with their shut down Wall Street protest on Thursday &#8211; without their tents, sleeping bags, empathy tables and STD testing facilities.
Meanwhile, Occutard antics were costing small businesses and therefore affecting workers.
According to the New York Post, since the Occupy Wall Street movement began in Zuccotti Park on September 17, protestors have cost surrounding businesses $479,400. Local jewelry shops, restaurants, and beauty salons complain that aggressive signs and reports of violence have dissuaded patrons from visiting their establishments &#8211; essentially driving struggling small companies out of business&#8230;
The rising costs of running water, toiletries, and repairs have skyrocketed in recent months as occupiers liberally use bathrooms as their own personal washrooms and destroy company property. Meanwhile, businesses are often required to stay open later &#8211; especially coffee shops &#8211; when intransigent protestors refuse to leave after closing. Alas, this leads inevitably to higher staffing costs. The expenditures are currently estimated at more than $9,000 a day!

classicman;773414 wrote:

Perhaps now Occupy will get more serious on getting a more unified position and cohesive as a unit.

Aliantha;773384 wrote:

So in other words, even the protesters in DC mostly sit around doing nothing? ;)

"It will be vital,” the memo says, “to understand who is funding it [OWS] and what their backgrounds and motives are. If we can show that they have the same cynical motivation as a political opponent it will undermine their credibility in a profound way.”

They criticize the "1 percent" for taking too much wealth, but they claim the right for a small group to inhabit public space indefinitely

Travis Bickle wrote:

All&#65279; the animals come out at night - whores, skunk pussies, buggers, queens, fairies, dopers, junkies. Sick, venal. Someday a real rain will come and wash all this scum off the streets.

Travis Bickle wrote:

Listen, you fuckers, you screwheads. Here is a man who would not take it anymore. A man who stood up against the scum, the cunts, the dogs, the filth, the shit. Here is a man who stood up.

Undertoad;772435 wrote:

<snip>
As you watched a massive section of the Portland police force
trying to oust protesters this morning, where were those cops not working?
What happened to the response time for crimes happening outside those districts?
Or were the police paid overtime for this effort?

"And you MUST change your views because it is NOT POSSIBLE that I am wrong."

PORTLAND, Ore. — Portland Police Chief Mike Reese has apologized
for saying Thursday it took police three hours to respond to a sexual assault call
because officers were tied up with Occupy Portland.

In a statement Saturday night, Reese said a variety of factors affected
police resources the day of the call, including a shooting, a serious traffic crash
and Occupy Portland events. Reese's statement said he
didn't intend to mislead people during TV interviews Thursday
and should have gathered all information before discussing it publicly.

A 15-year-old girl called Nov. 6 to report she had been the victim
of a sexual assault two days earlier. Police said it took three hours
before an officer showed up at her location because only two police cars
were available to respond to calls in that precinct.

Armed with snarky signs and at least one false mustache,
a group of about 10 anti-Occupy Portland protestors,
who called themselves Un-Occupy Portland, stood near Ankeny Plaza
to deliver a message to the Occupy movement:
"We're seriously annoyed, and we want you to stop."

As members of Occupy Portland gathered for a rally on the plaza,
the Un-Occupy protestors held signs with sayings such as
"We are the 98.999%. We are seriously annoyed with the 0.001%,"
"I'm bored and easily influenced," and "Un-Occupy Portland:
The 98.999% for Portland Police, Taxpayers and the City's Budget."

"Here's the problem: There is no consistent message,"
said Un-Occupy's self-described "actual, consistent spokesman,"
a construction worker who chose not to be identified.
"Their message is whatever the person standing beside you thinks their message is."

Lamplighter;774650 wrote:

Hypocrisy reigns ! :D

Lamplighter;774660 wrote:

Let's see... it was one of these

I joined the Texas Air National Guard

Pico and ME;774765 wrote:

Im loving this Casually Pepper Spraying Cop meme...

[ATTACH]35463[/ATTACH]

And, of course, this one started it...

Lamplighter;774660 wrote:

Let's see... it was one of these

I was too young
I was too old
I had flat feet
I liked boys
I was a conscientious objector
I had a criminal record
I refused to sign the Loyalty Pledge
I got a college deferment
I had a high draft number
I had a Rhodes Scholarship
I joined the Peace Corp
I knew Jack Kemp
I worked for GE
I went to Canada

TheMercenary;775007 wrote:

Wow... cool, non-answer. Don't ever accuse me of being evasive.

So you were a Draft Dodger?

TheMercenary;775007 wrote:

So you were a Draft Dodger?

SamIam;775398 wrote:

I am seriously considering boycotting the next election. The choices are lining up to be 1) Bad and 2) Worse<snip>

Lamplighter;775034 wrote:

No, just letting you pick your choice and run with it.

SamIam;775398 wrote:

I am seriously considering boycotting the next election.

TheMercenary;775007 wrote:

Wow... cool, non-answer. Don't ever accuse me of being evasive.

So you were a Draft Dodger?

Uday;775436 wrote:

You are saying this like it is a bad thing.

tw;775425 wrote:

Ignore everything until well after the Iowa Caucuses and New Hampshire primaries. Historically, the party's nomination is hardly even known until after those events. What is ongoing is the nonsense that will wed out many we should not even know about. I will never understand why anyone pays attention to so much nonsense as if any of it was relevant. Currently the many who only crave power are shooting themselves in the foot. Or pissing in their pants.

Big Sarge;775475 wrote:

The country would have been far better off if the rest of the nation followed our state.

And Obama doesn't seem to care that much, either. He doesn't seem to be making an effort to even rally his own party - not really.

So, I am returning the favor.

Why this massive mobilisation against these not-yet-fully-articulated, unarmed, inchoate people? After all, protesters against the war in Iraq, Tea Party rallies and others have all proceeded without this coordinated crackdown. Is it really the camping? As I write, two hundred young people, with sleeping bags, suitcases and even folding chairs, are still camping out all night and day outside of NBC on public sidewalks &#8211; under the benevolent eye of an NYPD cop &#8211; awaiting Saturday Night Live tickets, so surely the camping is not the issue. I was still deeply puzzled as to why OWS, this hapless, hopeful band, would call out a violent federal response.
...
The answer is straightforward: in recent years, members of Congress have started entering the system as members of the middle class (or upper middle class) &#8211; but they are leaving DC privy to vast personal wealth, as we see from the "scandal" of presidential contender Newt Gingrich's having been paid $1.8m for a few hours' "consulting" to special interests. The inflated fees to lawmakers who turn lobbyists are common knowledge, but the notion that congressmen and women are legislating their own companies' profits is less widely known &#8211; and if the books were to be opened, they would surely reveal corruption on a Wall Street spectrum. Indeed, we do already know that congresspeople are massively profiting from trading on non-public information they have on companies about which they are legislating &#8211; a form of insider trading that sent Martha Stewart to jail.

Undertoad wrote:

"Unparallelled police brutality" it is to laugh. I have a video of Syrian protesters getting shot in the face that dumb Naomi Wolf needs to see.

TheMercenary;775877 wrote:

Next up LA!

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2011/1126/After-extending-olive-branch-Los-Angeles-posts-eviction-notice-on-Occupy-LA-camp

wrote:

But given the congenial southern California climate and largely sympathetic politicians, Los Angeles' protesters have had few incentives to leave, and have given officials few official reasons &#8211; like crime or sanitation problems &#8211; to act. Indeed, the camp itself has largely steered clear of the kinds of small-time crimes, drug overdoses, and even shootings that have tainted other camps, and which have given other mayors public backing to close down the camps and tear down tents.

It wasn't clear why Villaraigosa chose this moment to act. At the Friday press conference, the mayor and Police Chief Charlie Beck wouldn't say how far police would go to clear protesters &#8211; or whether tear gas and rubber bullets would be used.

"The goal is to do this as peacefully as possible," Chief Beck said.

But some Occupy protesters have already indicated that they will resist eviction from the City Hall park.

"Elected leaders should be more concerned about enforcing regulations on banks than enforcing park rules," spokesman Jacob Hay tells the Los Angeles Times. "They should be busy creating jobs, not creating conflict with peaceful protesters."

Undertoad wrote:

"Unparallelled police brutality" it is to laugh. I have a video of Syrian protesters getting shot in the face...

SamIam;775925 wrote:

What's your problem with American citizens exercising their rights to freedom of assembly.....

You just don't want people walking around and freely expressing a point of view that does not agree with your own. Well, you can always move somewhere that does not allow freedom of speech - many places you could choose from.

Undertoad;776033 wrote:

Figuring out I was wrong de-radicalized me.

Undertoad;776033 wrote:

Figuring out I was wrong de-radicalized me.

SamIam;775925 wrote:

What's your problem with American citizens exercising their rights to freedom of assembly and freedom of speech?

TheMercenary;775998 wrote:

Does not equal freedom to occupy....

SamIam;775925 wrote:

"Elected leaders should be more concerned about enforcing regulations on banks than enforcing park rules," spokesman Jacob Hay tells the Los Angeles Times. "They should be busy creating jobs, not creating conflict with peaceful protesters."

Cyber Wolf;776914 wrote:

<snip> Now I'm curious, what can city hall do to enforce regulations on banks?
I thought that was a federal level thing and it's not the feds rousting the protesters.

Lamplighter;776944 wrote:

Do a Google News search on "OWS and FBI" to find articles about Homeland Security
participating in conference calls between city officials in several "occupied" cities.
Apparently DHS helped with coordination of both strategy and tactics.

As a result, a group of attorneys have filed Freedom of Information Act papers
to gain access to records of DHS participation in the OWS activites.
.

Cyber Wolf;776956 wrote:

It'd be a bit different if the feds were actually doing something.

Cyber Wolf;776956 wrote:

My next question would be what actual law enforcement division is out on the streets?
The feds holding the line or advising on how to hold it?
It'd be a bit different if the feds were actually doing the enforcing.

Lamplighter;776982 wrote:

I'm sorry, but I'm not understanding where we are going with this discussion.
And, it bothers me when someone tries to re-word something another has said.

Lamplighter;776982 wrote:

Were you simply pointing out that signs of the OWS spoke to national issues,
while local authorities have no way to affect those national issues ?
If so, I could agree the locals may be powerless in that respect.

Lamplighter;776982 wrote:

But that still would not be sufficient to nullify the message of the OWS signs.
That is, it's not necessary to have a full fledged "March on Washington" to send a national message.
OTOH, it's hard me to see why the DHS would or should need to be involved in such local demonstrations.
.

Happy Monkey;776258 wrote:

Freedom to assemble, unless it's in a place.

TheMercenary;777056 wrote:

Not the same as occupy. Nice try.

Griff;777120 wrote:

as·sem·ble
&#8194; &#8194;[uh-sem-buhl] Show IPA verb, -bled, -bling.
verb (used with object)
1.
to bring together or gather into one place, company, body, or whole.


oc·cu·py
&#8194; &#8194;[ok-yuh-pahy] Show IPA verb, -pied, -py·ing.
verb (used with object)

4.
to take possession and control of (a place), as by military invasion.

So your argument is that if they called themselves the peaceable assembly movement it would be okay to hold a multi-day protest? I understand that arguing is often the point of your arguments, but you didn't pay for an argument. Maybe you want abuse, its just down the hall.

henry quirk;777113 wrote:

-FAILFAILFAILFAIL-

"I'm so scared of this anti-Wall Street effort. I'm frightened to death," said Luntz of the Occupy Wall Street protesters. "They're having an impact on what the American people think of capitalism."

TheMercenary;777169 wrote:

All I have heard is a bunch of anarchists, old hippies, new hippies, with a smattering of the unemployed and other more intelligent people.

No great hue and cry to end our current capitalist system to an end from the majority of the nation.

Off to the Military National Rugby Championships for the weekend. Enjoy.

TheMercenary;777158 wrote:

"They're having an impact on what the American people think of capitalism."
You really believe that? You really think the nation is beginning to rethink the role of capitalism in our society?

[COLOR="DarkRed"]Yes[/COLOR]

Describe what specific changes you could see that would come directly from the protests.

[COLOR="DarkRed"]Reinstatement of the Glass-Steagall Act[/COLOR]

Byron L. Dorgan, a former Democratic senator from North Dakota,
says the knowledge might have helped pass legislation to reinstate the Glass-Steagall Act,
which for most of the last century separated customer deposits
from the riskier practices of investment banking.

&#8220;Had people known about the hundreds of billions in loans to the biggest financial institutions,
they would have demanded Congress take much more courageous actions
to stop the practices that caused this near financial collapse,&#8221; says Dorgan, who retired in January.

henry quirk;777181 wrote:

-The uber-rich becoming less so.

-The 'governors' doing something, anything, to dis-empower the uber-rich.