continue Religion debate to infinity here

Sorry guys, I didn't mean to derail the Iraq thread...so I will reply to your posts here instead. If I accidentally leave out someone, please remind me, O.K....

slang -
Hi slang, I would be classified as Judaic...
and you?

Cam -
Not true, interpretation changes the meaning, something the book of prophecies are forbidden to do. Even in individual conversing where interpretation is often necessary, it's a bad idea.
Example: Say the word 'helicopter' is not found in another language and you want to explain that "He flew away in a helicopter." The word to interpret 'helicopter' is 'bird', if you say "He flew away on a bird." the natives will think you are nuts!
The Torah leaves the untranslatable words as they are in Hebrew, and you can tell by the rest of the sentence and the whole paragraph what the meaning is. Example: The Hebrew word 'nflms' in the Torah is written as "There were nflms in the Earth in those days..." But the newer Bibles interpreted 'nflms' to 'giants' and was written by man as "There were giants in the Earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown."
'Giants' is not only wrong and changes the meaning, but it is a huge No-No to any God fearing person.
The words in that paragraph that are translated make clear that 'nflms' meant 'those who descended to Earth from Heaven.'
There is another where 'navel' is interpreted where the paragraph clearly describes the woman's private part below the navel.
When man adds or takes away to/from God's words, the book becomes man's words and will...to me.

juju -
I believe global warming is occurring, but NOT because of anything man has done. It's a natural cycle of self-correction the Earth goes through, like the Ice Age was(were the animals back then driving SUV's and polluting up the air too???)
Remember, the "hole" in the O-zone is shrinking as we speak because the Glaciers are melting, because of global warming.

jaguar -
Global warming is a fact as well.
And, as a parent it is solely MY RIGHT to teach my child about life as I see fit...not as you or the school sees fit. In fact, the schools have been teaching social awareness for some time now, and they've done such a bang-up job of it...we now have kids that can't handle failure or losing so they kill themselves or others, we now have 9 year olds getting busted for possession of pot, and we now have 10 year old girls getting gang-raped in class or turning up pregnant!!!! WHAT A SUCCESS! The school system can't even get reading,writing, and math right, and YOU trust them with your child's psychi? You don't have children, do you?

headsplice -
It always helps if you actually read the conversation before jumping in to barf out vomit that nobody stated!
The Torah was translated word for word from third century B.C.E. to present. The Torah I am reading was translated by men who understood the wrath they would bring upon themselves if they added or took away from the meaning of God's words or will.
Neat, Huh?!!
As for "knowing" and "truly understanding" God?
Bringing this down to the human level, to show that faith in God is no different from anything else in our humble lives... you may read all the books by Stephen Hawking, but do you "know" and "truly understand" him? Also, you most definately spent your whole life depending on your mother, father, sister, brothers, but do you ever really "know" and "truly understand" them?
Nope! We can't even understand each other!

undertoad -
I completely agree with you that a well-rounded child is produced by exposure to every side of every issue, so they can make their own informed opinion...in High School and College. At 7 years of age, I don't care how carefully they chose their words to remain diplomatic and all inclusive...
the only thing my 7 year old took away from that lesson was "the world is going to end." And that is so wrong on so many levels! And it's also a flat out lie, I'm not paying the school to lie to my child.
These contradictions jump from Old Testament to New Testament, then from revised to some newer books...
these have been re-written by man and are man's words. Why does it surprise you that man contradicts himself?
The Torah is understandable to all...after all, I understand it! ;)

radar -
Ignorance is bliss to you, no doubt!
Click ALL the links, Einstein...the ark? Sodom and Gomorrah? Ring a bell?
The 10 Commandments are Judaic and Christian, and the laws of our land throughout History were based on them. If the Religious symbol is also an Historical symbol and it represents two or more separate churches, it IS CONSTITUTIONAL!
George Washington was a Free-Mason, not really Christian...he was more of a Diest than anything.
I never said our Government was founded on Christian Religion...I said this Country(We the People) was founded on Judeo-Christian principles.
You only hear what you wish to hear, don't ya?

slang -
Hi slang, I would be classified as Judaic...
and you?

That is a very good question and the answer is christian....of some sort. I attend a Presbatarian church service maybe 2 times a year and own one bible. I look at it because my cousin gave it to me and it reminds me of him and his family. I read it once or twice. It isn't interesting reading in my opinion.

The idea that there is some universal life force that gives a rats ass about me and what I do is appealing in some respects. The notion hasnt caught fire for me though. I do believe that the bible is full of very wise advice and attempts to provide a template for a person's life. I don't read or study it though. Maybe I'm missing out on something big or maybe my time would be better spent rearranging my sock drawer. I havent been inspired up to this point.

I did attend a church in Mi that was appealing but havent seen anything like it here in Pa. That church was full of younger people and whole tone of the service was interesting and entertaining instead of the ol' stand up...sit down...listen to an old man read from the bible routine. I dont like going to church. For that matter, I dont like going outside much, but I'm not agoraphobic. When Jesus or god can come chat with me online in my tiny comfortable office here, I'm open. As for the boring standard service, no thank you.

So, I guess that would put me in the unreligious catagory.

And, I'm very glad to have you here, I've never met a Judaic non-liberal, muchless a female one.

Global warming is a fact as well.
And, as a parent it is solely MY RIGHT to teach my child about life as I see fit...not as you or the school sees fit. In fact, the schools have been teaching social awareness for some time now, and they've done such a bang-up job of it...we now have kids that can't handle failure or losing so they kill themselves or others, we now have 9 year olds getting busted for possession of pot, and we now have 10 year old girls getting gang-raped in class or turning up pregnant!!!! WHAT A SUCCESS! The school system can't even get reading,writing, and math right, and YOU trust them with your child's psychi? You don't have children, do you?

*sighs* Did i ever say you didn't have the right? Just as you are free to teach your poor, poor child whatever you want, I am entitled to think your opinions are farcical. Thank you for pointing out some of the worst cases you could find, I hope they make you feel better. I'm a product of the generation you're talking about a guess what, for ever fucked up kid there is usually a fucked up home environment. it's also a pretty low number, we all just got our VCE results back, I'm surrounded by and am one of thousands of happy, bright kids going into top uni places, the leaders and innovators of the future. On the other hand our socialist system is better funded than yours. What worries me is your jingoistic hyperbolic attitude, your blind fear and extreme examples point to a deeply coloured view of the world, I sincerely hope one day you can broaden your sadly myopic view of the world.

BTW I’m not sure if you’re part of those failed by your ailing school system you so viciously attack or whether we’re talking at cross purposes but don’t you mean psyche?

I'll let juju correct you on global warming.

Sorry headsplice but I *had* to jump in here. *You* may not understand Stephen Hawking, but some of us do. That though, is beside the point. Your rather inarticulate argument seems to be the old concept that science is a faith because most of us don't understand it. A true scientist has no faith in science, he merely follows the currant most likely theory (all science is theory) until a more likely one come along, the rules of physics might be overturned tomorrow and a scientist would have no problem with this. Science is dynamic and is not faith, religion is static. Science is theory based upon interpretation of the best possible evidence today, religion is faith in the intangible and abstract. For many science I agree is a form of faith, but science itself cannot be compared to religion, nor can people for that matter.

The Torah leaves the untranslatable words as they are in Hebrew, and you can tell by the rest of the sentence and the whole paragraph what the meaning is. Example: The Hebrew word 'nflms' in the Torah is written as "There were nflms in the Earth in those days..." But the newer Bibles interpreted 'nflms' to 'giants' and was written by man as "There were giants in the Earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown."

So pretty much, what you’re trying to say is only someone who can read and understand Hebrew should be able to just pick up the bible and read it. Or else they just have to interpret what the words mean themselves if no English translation was available.
I'm sure that's exactly what God had in mind when he had men write down his word.
But like I said before this discussion is worthless as changing someones mind about religion is futile. :)

And, as a parent it is solely MY RIGHT to teach my child about life as I see fit...not as you or the school sees fit.

I think that is the attitude that makes drug dealers kids drug dealers.

A true scientist has no faith in science, he merely follows the currant most likely theory (all science is theory) until a more likely one come along, the rules of physics might be overturned tomorrow and a scientist would have no problem with this.

Jag I want you to know you gained a ton of respect for saying that. It amazing to me how many of my friends try and argue that theories are not set in stone and that there is no possible way that anything can change them. That's one problem I have with most college physics classes here is they put so much emphasis on the math that they fail to teach the theories behind them, let alone discuss and debate them.

If the Religious symbol is also an Historical symbol and it represents two or more separate churches, it IS CONSTITUTIONAL!

Wrong. Posting any religious symbol (and the 10 commandments is ONLY religious and not historical) whether it represents one religion or several is unconstitutional and thus illegal because it would ammount to the government respecting an establishment or even a couple of them. The government can't legally support any religions whether it's one or several. They would also be disrespecting all non judeo-christian religions. The government can't legally put any religions over others.

America is not a Christian nation and never was.

I never said our Government was founded on Christian Religion...I said this Country(We the People) was founded on Judeo-Christian principles.

Incorrect as usual; None of the laws in America or our government was based on Judeo-Christian beliefs. Even our declaration of rights has nothing to do with Judeo-Christian beliefs. Our founding fathers believed in NATURAL RIGHTS like Locke described. They also believed in religious freedom, whether that is freedom of religion or from religion. This means they knew that people were born with rights and they got them from nature. But whether they happened to believe in the monotheistic god portrayed by Christians and Jews, or any of the different gods believed in by Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, or even Satan worshipers, they could assume their rights came from that entity as long as they got the concept of inalienable rights that aren't given to us by government and can't be taken away by government across.

The ark and sodom and gohmorra haven't been found either. Wow you're such a fart smeller.....er....smart feller. No I was right the first time.

The ark and sodom and gohmorra haven't been found either. Wow you're such a fart smeller.....er....smart feller. No I was right the first time.

OMG that was just tooooo funny. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by jaguar
I'll let juju correct you on global warming.

Actually, her assesment looks valid to me. She didn't say that global warming isn't happening, she said that it is just part of the natural cycle of the Earth. I don't know if this is true or not, but I have heard that there is a lack of long-term temperature data on the Earth. Is there some sort of centuries-long cycle that we're unaware of? We just don't know.

I wouldn't call what they're teaching a lie, though. There is significant evidence to support what the schools are teaching.

Cam - thanks =)
My interest in science has always been in the theory, not the application, for me that is kind of boring in comparison thus i end up dealing with allot more theroy than most. Secondly these kind of arguements always bring up the 'science is a faith too' misconception.

Juju - While there is no doubt that the earth's temperature has fluctuated significantly in over the past thousands of years and gone far higher than it is today there is one key difference. It's never gone up anywhere near this fast. The changes have been far, far slower. To argue that pumping the amount of shit we do into the atmosphere is going to have little or no effect to me at least seems very much like burying your head in the sand. This evidence comes from the same source as the longer term temperature information we have - ice cores. Thus while the temperature does fluctuate, there I extremely strong evidence to support the claim that we are having a significant and detrimental effect on the heath of our environment. I guess in the long term the argument is that as the environment changes, so will it's inhabitants (Darwin in action). But the pace of change we are inflicting on the environment is far shorter than the timeframes evolution tends to work over, thus even in a larger timescale it is hard to claim what we are doing is either good for the environment or part of a natural cycle which therefore has no detrimental effect.

To apply what i was talking about before - the best evidence i am aware of points to what i've stated above, but it is still science and thus must be taught as theory not fact.

America is not a Christian nation and never was.

Ohh, another fallacy. Oh boy, i agree with Radar, shoot me now.

What is actually happening here is what lots of chrsitians do - the arguement that ebcause a moral or teaching is part of the christian faith, whereever it pops up it is a christian moral and cannot just be the product of an entirely non-christian thought process. The christian attempt at a monopoly on morality in effect. It's an arguement i take particular distaste to because the corollary usually implied is that you cannot have 'chrsitian' moral without being christian.

Originally posted by juju
Is there some sort of centuries-long cycle that we're unaware of? We just don't know.

This was a fair representation of the situation as I know it. Many environmental/anti-capitalist groups state for fact that GlWarm is a direct result of auto and industrial exhausts. There are just as many and just as credible scientists that believe it isn't happening or isn't caused by man.

Actually, there is one point - the idea that the ozone hole is shrinking.

Just last year, the ozone hole over the South Pole extended into the Southern tip of Chile. Shrinking, huh?

All that's happened is that the rate of expansion has shrunk. We assume this is because people are a little bit more environmentally conscious, but we (environmentalists) don't really know - causality and all that.

As for global warming - there is so much about weather and temperature cycles of the earth that we don't know that we can't say definitively whether or not we are causing the rise in temperature. But it's stupid to assume no responsibility, and to go on as if modern civilization has nothing to do with it - if only for the fact that we might be right.

I think, however, that Cairo's example of her son brings up a very important consideration - do we tell our children about the problems we've caused? If not, when do we let them know? And will it matter either way?

I shoudl also probably point out that like many activist groups the environment groups (which IMHO has lost all direction, the really innovative stuff and the more through solutions are coming out of the alt. globalist (not the anti, they're a bunch of idiots) movements now) overstate the evidence, to the detriment of their cause.

Originally posted by slang


This was a fair representation of the situation as I know it. Many environmental/anti-capitalist groups state for fact that GlWarm is a direct result of auto and industrial exhausts. There are just as many and just as credible scientists that believe it isn't happening or isn't caused by man.

Every one of those scientists that I know of have been thoroughly discredited. The problem with many of them is that they have reached the conclusion before the experiment - and not from an educated guess, but from a poliical conviction. This means there's a tendency to overlook data or give less weight to variables that will not prove your hypothesis.

It happens on both sides of the fence.

Also, it is inaccurate to group environmental groups in with anti-capitalist ones. Some of the most radical environmental groups are anti-civilization, and some may be anti-capitalist, but they don't represent the mainstream nor the broad spectrum of such groups.

Originally posted by hermit22


Every one of those scientists that I know of have been thoroughly discredited. The problem with many of them is that they have reached the conclusion before the experiment - and not from an educated guess, but from a poliical conviction. This means there's a tendency to overlook data or give less weight to variables that will not prove your hypothesis.

It happens on both sides of the fence.

Also, it is inaccurate to group environmental groups in with anti-capitalist ones. Some of the most radical environmental groups are anti-civilization, and some may be anti-capitalist, but they don't represent the mainstream nor the broad spectrum of such groups.

I just had and idea that solves there problems. The federal government needs to create a tax deduction for the purchase price of a Segway scooter.

(slang thinks to self: Al Sharpton, Segway vehicles, firearms of any type, and black helicopters are relevant to any topic or discussion.)

(slang thinks to self: Al Sharpton, Segway vehicles, firearms of any type, and black helicopters are relevant to any topic or discussion.)

yeah but lets see you use all of em at the same time and keep it relevent. :)

~james

I thought this article had an interesting insight on the Segway yeah it's from ESPN but scroll down about half way or just search for segway. The rest of the article is interesting to.

Tuesday Morning Quarterback

I just had and idea that solves there problems. The federal government needs to create a tax deduction for the purchase price of a Segway scooter.

But then the concentration of 9/10s of the worlds fat existing in Nth America would slowly change the earths orbit and we'd all sink into the sun, causing the firey demise of the the entire planet.

Originally posted by perth

yeah but lets see you use all of em at the same time and keep it relevent. :)

I wanted to go hear Rev. Al Sharpton preach, and figured I'd use my Segway to get over to his church from the subway. I was going to carry a 9 mm pistol for protection, but then I noticed a black helicopter was following me.

How's that? :)

I was thinking more shoot him and escape on the segway while being chased by a baclk helicopter but....

I happened to be thinking about God today, and for some reason, the NIN song "Heresy" came to mind.

"God is dead
And no one cares
If there is a hell
I'll see you there."

Mean-spirited as can be, but truly a classic set of lyrics. :)

Originally posted by sycamore


I wanted to go hear Rev. Al Sharpton preach, and figured I'd use my Segway to get over to his church from the subway. I was going to carry a 9 mm pistol for protection, but then I noticed a black helicopter was following me.

How's that? :)

yes, but is it relevant? :)

~james

I say it is relevant as it refers to religion (Al Sharpton being a Pentecostal minister).

(Look...it's a fucking stretch...gimme some damned brownie points here. :) )

quote:
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And, as a parent it is solely MY RIGHT to teach my child about life as I see fit...not as you or the school sees fit.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Cam


I think that is the attitude that makes drug dealers kids drug dealers.

Through my work (no, honestly) I know a lot of drug dealers. And their kids, who are, for the most part as fucked up as their parents in a variety of ways. I also know drug dealer's kids that while not perfect, are much better people than their parents. What makes the difference is the level of parental involvement with the kids.

When you leave your child to be raised by the state (including the state supported public education system), making only minimal effort to be involved in your child's life and upbringing, you're not going to have a high quality, interested, involved, inquisitive child.

I know several children who are either homeschooled, or whose parents invest a lot of their time (not just "quality time," which is a fiction developed to make part-time parents feel better about ignoring thier offspring 90% of the time) in their children, being involved in their lives, but also giving them reponsibility in making choices in their lives and understanding the consequences of their actions. These kids are a joy to be around, no matter what their ages ...

I spend too much of my time talking to parents who are essentially begging me (and my facility) to help them correct the mistakes in childrearing they have been making for the last 15 or so years.

"I give him everything he wants."

"He doesn't listen to me."

No wonder.

You get a different perspective on childrearing today when you see the mother of th 14 year old who herself has a 1-1/2 year old child, with mom wondering why her daughter won't straighten up and fly right.

Or the mother with deep bruises on her neck from her 14 year old son's attempt to strangle her (she had lost consciousness and also probably had a concusion from her darling boy kicking her in the head after she fell to the ground) refusing to file paperwork for an emergency commitment evaluation because he said he was sorry when the police were putting him in the handcuffs and loading him in to the back of the cruiser. Beating the shit out of mom was a regular family activity. Probably still is, assuming he's not in juvenile dentention for beating up someone other than mom.

So, although I've wandered from the point here, the American educational system is broken ... more than likely because as a nation, we've turned the children over to the system to parent, rather than doing the job ourselves, demanding of the schools more than what they're intended to do.

I'm a product of the public school system (save for a disatrous year in a catholic school), and overall have no problem with the quality of education I received. That was a bit of a while ago, though. Given the opportunity, I'll homeschool.

Originally posted by jaguar
... I'm surrounded by and am one of thousands of happy, bright kids going into top uni places, the leaders and innovators of the future. On the other hand our socialist system is better funded than yours.

Your socialist system is at least admitting up front it's a socialist system, jag, rather than pretending otherwise.

I think you're confusing the blame, wolf. You start off by blaming the parents, and then somehow transfer the blame onto the public education system. Which is it?

My general group of friends includes several different backgrounds - home schooled, private schooled, and public schooled, and we're young enough that we're only a few years out of the systems. I think there are few traits you can associate with any one group of them, and, obviously, this is a less than scientific study. However, I generally seem to get the feeling that the private school kids are better students and the home school kids had a harder time getting started in life on their own. And, since I hung out with the Honors crowd, my public school friends are the smartest. :)

I don't really think that you can directly blame public schools for our social ills. Public schools aren't the place to teach morality, the home is. Which brings me back to the first point - parent involvement. If kids don't find the attention they need from their parents, they'll look for it elsewhere. It's unfortunate that many of today's parents are too busy to recognise that.

Ultimately the fault lies with the parents. Perhaps in my rambling I didn't express my point clearly enough.

I'm only blaming the school system for being ineffective in what it's supposed to do ... educate children (in the three Rs sense of the word).

Originally posted by wolf
Given the opportunity, I'll homeschool.

i dont know about homeschooling, in my case at least. i think its a luxury few people can afford today. i will say that when it comes time to put my son in school he will be attending private school. i have lost faith in the public school system as well.

~james

Aahhh!!! Don't hijack the thread started to prevent the continued thread hijacking!

Originally posted by Undertoad
Aahhh!!! Don't hijack the thread started to prevent the continued thread hijacking!

oops. sorry. for the benefit of the thread, pretend i said parochial school instead of private. :)

~james

Aaarg! Hoist the black flag!

One real advantage my kids paro... er private school has is that the parents are invested in it financially and that leads to an emotional investment that shouldn't be discounted. None of us wants to throw money away, so if we think we see mismanagement we are on it and we are listened to because we are customers and partners. We are middle class / working class parents who've decided that education is too important to be left to the political and often politicized system.

Originally posted by Griff
One real advantage my kids paro... er private school has is that the parents are invested in it financially and that leads to an emotional investment that shouldn't be discounted.

Not always -- I have met a number of people who have pulled their kids out of private schools because they have witnessed the converse of your admirable reaction, ie; parents who essentially wash their hands of their kids, because, after all, "We've written a big check -- let the school take care of it."

In one salient tale, a girl was routinely shoplifting from the student-run school store, and when the parent advisor tried to stop the child, she just shrugged and walked away. When the parent went to the headmaster (yes, it's one of those schools) she was told "Oh, is that Mr. So-and-so's child? Well, just keep a tab of what she takes and he'll write us a check at the end of the month. We can't afford to upset him; he just paid for our new auditorium."

Egads. Not all folks who make a financial investment make a concommitant emotional investment. On the other hand, imagine how much worse it would be if THOSE kids were home schooled and learning more of their parents' values!

Originally posted by 99 44/100% pure
Egads. Not all folks who make a financial investment make a concommitant emotional investment. On the other hand, imagine how much worse it would be if THOSE kids were home schooled and learning more of their parents' values!

Parents who will buy thier kids out of criminal charges are not the kind of parents who would be willing to invest the time and effort in homeschooling.

Originally posted by 99 44/100% pure

Egads. Not all folks who make a financial investment make a concommitant emotional investment. On the other hand, imagine how much worse it would be if THOSE kids were home schooled and learning more of their parents' values!

I'm familiar a story of preferential treatment that occurred locally where kids from one family and their classmates didn't have to follow dress code in a school, however, to me that is the exception and it didn't last long. Most folks in my school have to scrape to afford it. I'd much rather a place where parents have a financial committment. The two great advantages that public schools have are that they are free and compulsory. Those are also the two things which cause the most problems for the public system.

Ideally, home schooling is the way to go. If my school begins to fail that is our next move.

I think the emotional attachment to the money depends on how much they depend on the money. Obviously, a family that has to scrape to get by for their kids education are going to care more about the cost of that education than ones that can buy that school a new auditorium.

This is a rantey-subject I've been looking forward to bitching about for a while, and, ideally, I won't blow it too badly. I'm homeschooled. Well, unschooled, I suppose. I spend my days doing things that entertain me; posting on webboards, IRCing, listening to music, gaming, reading, coding...Whatever strikes me as fun at the time. It goes in phases, actually: rarely do I go from 'gaming' to 'coding' to 'reading' within a single day. Instead, I'll typically focus on a single thing for a good 10-20 hours, burn out, and repeat the process with one of the others.

Public school is flawed. For whatever reason, it's not about education, nor has it been anytime within my lifetime. I've heard some people have decent schools; maybe they just suck more out in Oregon. The approach to teaching around here seems to be "force-feed and regurgitate": read chapters X, do homework Y, take test Z. It might work if the student has an active desire to learn the stuff and takes the time to comprehend and learn it. They can get by without, however, and the material is typically presented as highly disinteresting. Why should they bother?

Over the years, curiosity in new things drops off to about nill. Learning for its own sake ceases to be fun and interesting for many people, as they associate it with the unpleasant and forced nature of school. Somewhere along the line, they develop a dependance on the system; "it's the only way to learn". The most common comment I seem to get is "without school, how will you learn to do $foo?".

I'm not too hot on what little I've heard about most private schools, either, for basically all the reasons that've been mentioned by others within this thread. It might be a viable alternative, but it seems like they could easily just have the exact same problems.

The key thing in learning, I think, is having the kid be interested in it. If they don't care or are actively resisting, why bother wasting your time? Provide motivation, keep them interested, keep them involved.

I suppose the private vs public vs home/un thing is really a question of values. What do you define as "learning"? Is learning more important than money? How much should they learn in what span of time?

The only increased cost that I can see in (home|un)schooling would come from having to take care of the kid(s) during the day when they're young. Teach 'em to cook eggs, pasta, and sandwiches before they're 8 and let 'em fend for themselves. Well, maybe enlighten them on reading, walking, and the route to the library, too.

Admittedly, there are downsides: it's pretty much impossible to get a "well-rounded education" out of unschooling, and the dating prospects are typically about nill.

I don't have any references to cite, but A.S. Neil started a <a href="http://www.s-hill.demon.co.uk/">pretty nifty-looking private school</a> in England, and wrote <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0312141378/qid=1040578605/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/104-3785129-2275964?v=glance&s=books">a book</a> about it. Lots of books have also been written about home/unschooling, but I've only ever read <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0962959170/qid=1040578205/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/104-3785129-2275964?v=glance&s=books">this one</a>.

--Sk

I wrote a long post on this yesterday, selected all of it and accidentally hit paste. IE for mac does not seem to have a undo function. I was not amused.

Anyway...

First of all I've been in the 3 systems i'll be talking about - private, public and public elite.

For a few years i went to one of the biggest and most expensive private school there is here. If kids want to learn the are a great environment, providing unique opportunities that the lesser funded public schools cannot. The smaller class sizes and sometimes higher quality of teaching seem to help about 1/3 of those who are not born academics. the other 2/3s just stay the same. The space it gives teachers to move can allow them ot provide more interesting activities that can get otherwise bored kids learning and involved. The private schools here are between $1000 and $25000. This also included religious etc school which often make up the bottom end of the pricing scale.

I think it is the same in the US but the public system here is woefully underfunded. I mean badly. While those with an interest in learning can still thrive it is far harder, the environment is far less positive (although not too different to private schools, a thug in a $1200 blazer is still a stupid thug). Staff wise the teachers tend to be of lower quality, although there are exceptions and you can really tell when you get a good teacher. People are motivated, group work gets done, people hand in work and participate in class. As these schools are run as businesses they do give an amazing amount of leeway to students who can afford it, i know one girl at a top melbourne girls private school who has been kicked out 5 times, each time daddy has written a cheque and she's been let back in with open arms. While I'm more open than a few friends of mine who think the private school system should be abolished to provide a better level of education equality i would like to see the massive amounts of money that go as profits instead going into the public system, my putting everyone in the same environment you can also promote tolerance and understanding, which i would argue is as essential to teach kids as the 3 Rs.

One thing we have here which i don't know of existing outside australia is a network of 2-3 elite public schools in each major capital city. These school have far better funding, a mixture of government and donations from old boys and friends of the school (old boys tend to include high numbers of people in the top and astronomic pay brackets). They compete with private schools in sports, often wear similar uniforms and consistently top the state in final year results, often making up half the intake into top courses such as med and law. these schools tend to only include the last 4-5 years of high school at most and are usually enter by a test/interview. They offer an environment that actively encourages and promotes academic competition, tolerance and the onus to learn is firmly on the student. If work is missed, you fail, no extensions, no excuses, no teachers following you up. Thus while private schools which spoon-feed their students suffer by far the highest uni dropout rate. These schools offer the top 1000 or so students each year to have access to excellent affordable education that encompasses many minorities and a wide range of socioeconomic strata.

I don't think there is an ideal system, but having been through those 3 i do have to say the elite public schools do certainly provide an oppotunity for kids that otherwise would have far more trouble demonstrating their full potential.


Notes:
A good teacher can keep kids entertained while teaching but we all have ot do things in life we don't greatly enjoy, not being facinated is not a good excuse for not learning something at a high school level, i've heard that winge from people my age, quit whining, slacker.

Teachers are the most underpaid and undervalued profession we have. How can you expect the great people that we NEED to go into teaching on the pitiful saleries and futures we offer? Teaching should be as highly respected as law and medicine.

Originally posted by jaguar
A good teacher can keep kids entertained while teaching but we all have ot do things in life we don't greatly enjoy, not being facinated is not a good excuse for not learning something at a high school level, i've heard that winge from people my age, quit whining, slacker.

There is nothing that can be done to force a stubborn and disinterested pereson to learn--truly learn--something. Sure, you can force them to do meet a certain standard of quality, and maybe they'll pick up a few things, but it's far more work for far less gain. There's no real requirement to learn, let alone remember for more than a few weeks, much of the information that students are presented with in public schools around here. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

--Sk

I apologize for the late response, this time of year is so hard for me to find time to relax and get in here. Right now, I'm all work,work,work, and no play. Hehehe...

Slang -
Thank you for the kind words to me, when you said,"I've never met a Judaic non-liberal, muchless a female one." My first thought was...Barbra Streisand is Jewish, not Judaic at all. Actually, she's Socialist/Communist which by definition is Godless...thus, explaining her refusal to comment on the Israel-Palestinian matter.
The Lord reveals Himself to whom He will, no matter where you are or what you are doing...only at that time does clarity and inspiration set in.

Jaguar -
You say,"our socialist system is better funded than yours."...Unless you live in Norway or Finland, your Country is going broke! If Norway or Finland were more populated, they too could not keep their head above water. The United States has no desire to become a broke socialist system(welfare was established to be temporary) We are a Capitalist system that serves to empower We the People in this Republic Country.
But I did get a laugh out of your, 'My dad is better than your dad' claim, LOL....
And then you say,"A true scientist has no faith in science..." LMAO...I'll remind you of this the next time you try to use science as a basis of proof or fact. Also, if you understood Stephen Hawking's high energy partical physics...you wouldn't be on this messageboard! ROTFLMAO...
According to you, NASA has been discredited and debunked, eh???? Riiiiight!

http://www.gsfc.nasa.gov/topstory/20020926ozonehole.html

Cam -
No, that's not what I'm saying...English translation is available, and the handful of words that can not translated are self explanitory when you read the rest of the paragraph that did translate to English.

Radar -
Let's take a look at what the Religion clause actually means instead of what activist groups tell us it means, shall we?

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of Religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"
Hmmmmm,"make no law"....make no law. In your deluded little mind, exactly what law is Congress clamoring to vote on with regards to the 10 Commandments? If, as you imply, our Founding Fathers had sought to supress religious excercise from the Government and States, they would not have established a congressional Chaplain, prayer before every session begins in congress, Presidential swearing in on the Bible, and the 10 Commandments on the wall of the Supreme building when it was built. Establishment of Religion refers to forcing one single ruling religion onto the people, since the 10 Commandments are recognized by Judaic and Christian, two very different Religions, allowing the democratic will of the people only encourages multi-religion freedom.
Now, the no "prohibiting" part...
Our courts are supposed to decide and interpret LAW, since the Constitution prevents law(for or against) on Religion, what are all these courts basing their opinions on? Constitutionality? A donation or gift by a private citizen, paid for with private funds, given to a public institution for display is a "free excercise thereof". What do you call bypassing Congress to make law from the bench? What do you call making law from the bench that prohibits a citizen their Right to free excercise of Religion?

BTW, I am not a "feller"....even if I was, you are hardly ever right or funny.

Hermitt22 -
The word "shrinking" is actually NASA's word as of Sept.26,2002. (see above link)
Saying that man has the power to in any way affect the Earth is a little "full of ourselves" and Delusions of Grandeur to say the least...it's comparable to claims that ants are ruining your whole backyard!

Wolf -
Great post! Very compeling and well stated from experience...thank you.

Skunks - thats my point. If kids don't want to learn, particulary at a high school level when they should be aware that in the end, it is for their benefit and in their interest it is their own damn fault, not the system's when they fail miserably and work at maccyDs for the next 40 years of their pathetic lives.

Cairo - Don't you have save gods children meeting to go to or something? You keep marring otherwise interesting conversations with your inane prattle, it's getting annoying.
Oh by the way, i don't think you read your link, for some reason i did.

The researchers stressed the smaller hole is due to this year's peculiar stratospheric weather patterns and that a single year's unusual pattern does not make a long-term trend. Moreover, they said, the data are not conclusive that the ozone layer is recovering.

Stop clinging to straws and drown already.

Originally posted by jaguar
Skunks - thats my point. If kids don't want to learn, particulary at a high school level when they should be aware that in the end, it is for their benefit and in their interest it is their own damn fault, not the system's when they fail miserably and work at maccyDs for the next 40 years of their pathetic lives.

So the system is perfecto++, and the fact that it doesn't work is entirely the fault of the clearly lazy and worthless students?

My intention was more to outline the problem than to specifically place blame anywhere. Sure, they -can- learn with the current system, but they could learn a lot -more-.

--Sk

No, I never said the system is perfect, I meant to explicitly state that in my original post but I think it got lost between the first and second versions although it was still applied. What I’m trying to say is that it is not always the fault of the system, the system cannot be perfect, there will always be shits who don't want to learn and the system should most certainly not be tailored towards them. Something both the public and private systems seem to suffer from is catering for the lowest common denominator.

Everybody -
Please note for the record that I was personally attacked first, which has always been the case...
but now I'm pointing it out beforehand.

Jaguar -
In case you failed to notice...I started this thread. So if my "inane prattle" that reveals how utterly STUPID you are embarrasses and "annoys" you...start a thread of your own to spew your worthless flatulence!!!

BTW - I am sure that you could ~read~ the article all day long, but managing to ~comprehend~ the meaning of it completely eludes you.
Allow me to simplify the meaning for you...
Researchers say that we have no control over the ozone, and we don't know the long term trend because it has nothing to do with us.

LOL...really, the lengths you go to prove you're an idiot are truly fascinating! You don't miss a trick!!!!

And about the school system...any system(Government or Business) that "loses" 2 Million dollars in one year...that system is severely broke!
As for the students...stop "social promotion" if they failed, flunk 'em!!!! Bad parents who raise bad children won't get involved unless their child is held back a grade.

Originally posted by Cairo
As for the students...stop "social promotion" if they failed, flunk 'em!!!! Bad parents who raise bad children won't get involved unless their child is held back a grade.

Unfortunately for the most part the only involvement of the parents is to complain that the child is being held back ... without addressing or even understanding the reasons for this.

(Darnit ... there we go heading off track again)

Attempt to redeem myself here ... One thing that I personally think keeps getting people into difficulty is the promotion of religion over spirituality.

Religion is about doctrine and dogma and the things that people tend to get upset over ... my god is better than your god (or my conception/interpretation of the nature of god) seems to be a central theme.

Spirituality is in part the expression of a religious belief, but is more of a personal, experiential mode of thought.

Wars have been fought over religion time and time again. (consider ... today's terrorist actions in some ways are a continuation of the Crusades ...), but I can't offhand think of one fought over spirituality ...

Am I making ANY sense, or am I just suffering from sleep deprivation at this point?

Researchers say that we have no control over the ozone, and we don't know the long term trend because it has nothing to do with us.

*sighs*
What the article says is yes, the ozone hole got smaller this yea, due to extremely unusual weather conditions. That is all. The researchers wanted to stress that point so halfwits like you couldn't use it as some kind of evidence to support inane outdated theories.

It does not say that we cannot control the ozone layer, it does not say the hole/s has stopped getting bigger, and it does not refute basic scientific fact about the effect of CFCs on the ozone layer and the fact that we are responsible for the severe damage we have inflcited on it. Something i am acutely aware of here every day - we are on the edge of the hole and trust me, it does not take long to burn at all.

Am I making ANY sense, or am I just suffering from sleep deprivation at this point?

You are making some sense. I'm not sure about your definition of spirituality but i see your point. How would you go about promoting spirituality without religion? The idea interests me but a model for such an idea is rather hard to come by. Religion and spirituality as a subject is deeply interesting but its teaching will always cause discourse.

On the flipside, we're both wasting our time argueing with this prat so...

Originally posted by jaguar
How would you go about promoting spirituality without religion? The idea interests me but a model for such an idea is rather hard to come by. Religion and spirituality as a subject is deeply interesting but its teaching will always cause discourse.

Well ... I don't know that I'd necessarily go about promoting anything ... that's kind of the trouble, you know ... selling one system over another is what leads to the problem.

On second thought, it kind of HAS been done ... A Course in Miracles, The Celestine Prophecy, and every book written by Dipak Chopra, Marianne Williamson, Michael Harner or Andrew Weil are pretty much packaging and selling spirituality as a concept separate from religion. I don't know that any one or combination of these folks have enough penetration in the marketplace (especially outside of the Western hemisphere) to have any real impact.

I don't know that there actually is an answer here ... I come from the perspective that humans are naturally divisive ... they seek out conflict whenever possible, and base that conflict on some observable or imagined difference. (race, politics, religion) ... there's always an us vs. them mentality ... our warriors are superior to your warriors, our gods can kick your god's ass, The Eagles rule and the Giants Suck. (Frankly, I don't much care about sports, but it is a modern expression of the warrior spirit in a lot of ways. Of course there's a lot more money involved.)

On the flipside, we're both wasting our time argueing with this prat so...

I don't know about you, but where I am it's 0230 hrs on Christmas Eve. There's not a lot else going on here. And besides. I find this fun.

Originally posted by Cairo
Everybody -
Please note for the record that I was personally attacked first, which has always been the case...
but now I'm pointing it out beforehand.

And about the school system...any system(Government or Business) that "loses" 2 Million dollars in one year...that system is severely broke!

Actually, I can remember several pointed and baseless personal attacks on me, whereas I make every effort to keep my comments free from personal attacks.

I'll leave the environmental response to Jaguar, who did a well enough job.

I find it funny, however, that the price of education to Cairo is $2M. Obviously it's a random figure she pulled out of her ass, but it paints a pretty clear picture of where her head is.

Oh wait -- I think I just conflicted myself...oh well.

Originally posted by wolf

On second thought, it kind of HAS been done ... A Course in Miracles, The Celestine Prophecy, and every book written by Dipak Chopra, Marianne Williamson, Michael Harner or Andrew Weil are pretty much packaging and selling spirituality as a concept separate from religion. I don't know that any one or combination of these folks have enough penetration in the marketplace (especially outside of the Western hemisphere) to have any real impact.

I don't know that there actually is an answer here ... I come from the perspective that humans are naturally divisive ... they seek out conflict whenever possible, and base that conflict on some observable or imagined difference. (race, politics, religion) ... there's always an us vs. them mentality ... our warriors are superior to your warriors, our gods can kick your god's ass, The Eagles rule and the Giants Suck. (Frankly, I don't much care about sports, but it is a modern expression of the warrior spirit in a lot of ways. Of course there's a lot more money involved.)

I like this discussion. Here it's only 12:30am on Christmas Eve, and, yeah, not much going on either.

So I've been thinking about this in the 5 minutes or whatever it takes for me to brush my teeth and get ready for bed, and I have a late night theory for you - so obviously, it's incredibly substantial. Basically, all major religions boil down to convincing people to be nice to other people. This idea has to be constantly repackaged for different regions, cultures and eras.

The problem is that people aren't going to believe what you say unless you wow them. So religions were forced to become more and more inventive and spectacular or else they wouldn't have anyone in their flock. Without a following, religions would fail. The fabric of society needs something like religion or else it gets torn apart. So the society's religion becomes key to its existence, and it ends up becoming intertwined with cultural identity and, in modern times, nationalism.

Western societies, however, are moving away from religion. At the same time, Western Europe is moving away from nationalism with the creation of the EU. I think there's a connection between these two trends, and I think the result will be a transcendence of religion - just like there will be a transcendence of nationalism. I think what we're seeing today is the last sputterings of religious bickering, and I think the eventual goal of globalization is to equalize.

I realize there's a lot of holes in this logic, and its probably been said a thousand times, but I'm too sleepy to notice right now. :)

(slang prays quietly for god to have mercy on Hermit for his "evil thoughts" )

Only 8:42 christmas eve here.

On second thought, it kind of HAS been done ... A Course in Miracles, The Celestine Prophecy, and every book written by Dipak Chopra, Marianne Williamson, Michael Harner or Andrew Weil are pretty much packaging and selling spirituality as a concept separate from religion. I don't know that any one or combination of these folks have enough penetration in the marketplace (especially outside of the Western hemisphere) to have any real impact.

I don't know that there actually is an answer here ... I come from the perspective that humans are naturally divisive ... they seek out conflict whenever possible, and base that conflict on some observable or imagined difference. (race, politics, religion) ... there's always an us vs. them mentality ... our warriors are superior to your warriors, our gods can kick your god's ass, The Eagles rule and the Giants Suck. (Frankly, I don't much care about sports, but it is a modern expression of the warrior spirit in a lot of ways. Of course there's a lot more money involved.)

I can't say i'm familiar with any of them =( The question for me is whether it is about spirituality or a particualr form of spirituality. Personally i think the only way a shool should have anything to do with the teaching of religion would be to get pretty much every religious and spiritual text in a room, with a big sign over the door saying enter at your own peril and dump the kids in there for a few hours.

I think that religion's sole purpose is to answer unanswerable questions. People being nice to each other is just a nice side benefit. See, some people just can't stand not knowing the answer to some questions. Rather than face the uncertainty and fear than comes with not knowing, they just make something up and call it the truth. It's very comforting to have all the answers. Many people aren't so much concerned with the truth as they are with eliminating their doubt and fear as quckly as possible (very uncomfortable things to have).

Let's take a look at what the Religion clause actually means instead of what activist groups tell us it means, shall we?

Yes, let’s.

The founding father’s wanted total and complete separation of church and state. They wanted ALL RELIGIONS completely out of government and government out of ALL RELIGIONS! The United States was first among nations to adopt a secular Constitution. The founders who wrote the U.S. Constitution wanted citizens to be free to support the church of their choice, or no religion at all. Our Constitution was very purposefully written to be a godless document, whose only references to religion are exclusionary.

It is vital to buttress the Jeffersonian "wall of separation between church and state" which has served our nation so well.

The president doesn’t have to swear on a bible, nor does anyone who is going to testify in a court of law. All they must do is affirm they are telling the truth. And any mention of the bible, god, or prayers in any official government capacity is a clear and direct violation of the 1st amendment. That includes in oaths, public prayers in government buildings, putting the word “god” on our currency, etc. Chaplains aren’t supposed to be of any particular denomination and many people would like to pray before they are sent to die in an illegal war to defend some other country so I can see a military chaplain. The congressional chaplain is probably so they can pray for forgiveness before they rape the American public, etc. Again if this is non-denominational, done privately, and not funded with public money I have no argument.

Let’s look at what the founding fathers thought about Christianity.


Thomas Jefferson

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."

"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus."

"The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.


John Adams

"Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?"

"The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."

Thomas Paine

"I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible)."

"Among the most detestable villains in history, you could not find one worse than Moses. Here is an order, attributed to 'God' to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers and to debauch and rape the daughters. I would not dare so dishonor my Creator's name by (attaching) it to this filthy book (the Bible)."

"It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible."

"The Christian church has set up a religion of pomp and revenue in pretended imitation of a person (Jesus) who lived a life of poverty."


James Madison

"What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy."

"Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

George Washington

” The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion”

Establishment of Religion refers to forcing one single ruling religion onto the people

Yet another fallacious argument from you. Establishment of religion refers to one or several religions and whether you contend the 10 commandments represents 1 or a thousand religions it still represents religions and thus has no place in government.

Our courts are supposed to decide and interpret LAW

Another fallacious argument. The courts aren’t to “interpret” anything, especially the supreme court. They are to settle disputes among the states and to UPHOLD AND DEFEND the constitution. They don’t define it, and aren’t authorities over it. They answer to the constitution. They routinely make unconstitutional rulings for what they deem to be in “national interest” despite not having this authority. They look for ways around the constitution rather than defending it. And nowhere in their description of powers are they granted permission to “interpret” the constitution. The constitution doesn’t require interpretation. It’s written in simple English, not Swahili. It means what it says; nothing more; nothing less.

The entire constitution and declaration of independence were carefully written to be secular documents that made a clear wall of separation between all things religious (from any religion or from several) and all things government. Only later did religious zealots like the temperance movement put the word “god” on our money despite it not belonging there.

Donating a copy of the 10 commandments to be posted at a courthouse isn’t an exercise of your religious freedom. Nice try mental midget. Praying is an exercise of religion, trying to post your religious doctrine in places of government business is an attempt to force your religion down the throats of other Americans.

Neither the American government, nor the laws of America are based on Judeo-Christian principles, morality, or beliefs. And they never will be.

The founding fathers created America so that Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Diests, and even Atheists would be equal under the law and so they could be free to practice their religion without government interference and that they could have their government free from religious interference. They had seen Quakers burn women at the stake and people being arrested for not believing in the bible in north America and seen even worse injustices and atrocities in Europe due to the mixing of church and state. This is why they created a secular nation where people could have the freedom of religion, but also the freedom from it.

Here's are a couple of my favorite websites for those of you who want a laugh and have a minute:

http://jhuger.com/kisshank.mv

http://www.jesusdressup.com

Talking of education: 7 US States cut back the school week to 4 days

'Nuff said really...

Originally posted by jaguar
Talking of education: 7 US States cut back the school week to 4 days

'Nuff said really...

This got my attention. Toward the middle of the article, it points out that "The tradeoff is that students in the four-day system have to go to school 7.5 hours per day to get the same amount of instruction that the standard five-day, six-hour schedule provides. That means even 6-year-old first-graders have to be in class from 8:15 a.m. to 4:15 p.m. each day."

So, no, the students in these districts are not losing 20% of their instructional time. In fact, this may be a real boon to families with two parents working, or single parents, who have to come up with before-and-after-school care for their kids. Perhaps this move will be more succesful and widepread than the push for year-round school has been.

Originally posted by juju
I think that religion's sole purpose is to answer unanswerable questions.

From this (and next) weeks The Economist:

Extracts from a spoof letter, widely posted on the Internet, to Laura Schlessinger, a (Jewish) fundamentalist broadcaster

DEAR Dr Laura, I have learned a great deal from your show...When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them.

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbours. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

Lev. 25:44 states that I may possess slaves...provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

Jaguar -
*Rolls eyes* First you say,"What the article says is yes, the ozone hole got smaller this year, due to extremely unusual weather conditions. That is all."
Then you say,"...the fact that we are responsible for the severe damage we have inflicted on it."
So...you disagree with NASA, or you think that we control the weather! Either way you're wrong. If we control the weather, why are the forecasters always wrong? And why don't we just turn on the sprinklers over drought areas? And whoever is in charge of my area's temp. dial...keep it set on 72, K? No more of this 102 in the summer and 32 in the winter!(end of sarcasm)
Hmmmm, "True scientists have no faith in science."
So by your own admission your "basic scientific fact" isn't a fact because science keeps evolving with new data that leads elsewhere. You refuted it yourself!

Hermit22 -
Yeah, Jaguar did a well enough job if you totally ignore NASA and common sense! Ha! *weighing the options here* Hmmmm, who's more credible? Jaguar or NASA, NASA or Jaguar??? I rest my case!
Actually I meant to type $200 Million dollars per year, it was late and I rushed past the "00"...
Hey, I actually made the school system look good by my typo!

http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aa043001a.htm

I don't say things out of my ass, my recall may be a little off but the message is the same and I can back it up....but idiots insist on finding that out about me the hard way! I don't mind, it's rather fun to watch the idiots reduced to "it's a waste of my time to argue with you!" Which happens when they have no argument!

Radar -
Still regurgitating the same crap in a longer, more irrational way revealing your Tyrannical thought process, I see....You are spinning like a top, my friend! Barfing out talking points from activist websites only works if you know what you are talking about, trouble is, when you do learn what you are talking about you realize the talking points are WRONG!
Address the "make no law" issue, address the "not prohibiting an individual's free exercise thereof" issue, address the "courts are making law from the bench" issue...all from my previous post!

1. No, the term separation of church and state is not in the Constitution, thus cannot be judged by our courts...unless they are "interpreting" the Constitution. Separation of church and state is an ideal that makes sure the Government can not overtake and control the church as our Founders saw Britain and other Monarchys do. The Constitution and Declaration are NOT Godless documents, they both acknowledge and recognize Religion/God. The Constitution not only grants citizens the Right to support the church of their choice, but also the Right to "free exercise thereof"...meaning not to prohibit an individuals actions, thoughts, and words concerning Religion.
2. I am not Christian, and do not follow the teachings of Jesus...so I agree with Jefferson, somewhat. But who am I to unconstitutionally demand that those who do be prohibited?...The Taliban?!!!!
You see, the difference between you and me is my America offers a choice. Your America prohibits all except your belief! In my America individuals don't have to mention the Bible, God, or prayers...but they can if they want(as Constitutionally protected in the no prohibitting clause), your America is clearly UNConstitutional!
3. I said our courts decide and interpret LAW, not the Constitution. You are interpreting the "Congress shall make no law..." part by insisting that Constitutionality extends beyond "making law" when it doesn't!
4. Webster's definition of exercise: The act of bringing into play or realizing in action.
Any form of action is "exercising"... so don't put limits that are UNConstitutional, Mr. Taliban-man!
We the People own those buildings, and I believe all Religions should donate to them. That encourages a multi-religion nation.
5. The Government has not interfered until it makes law...YOU, on the otherhand, are UNConstitutionally interfering by ramming a Godless Communist, no choice America down the throats of 90+% of American citizens who want to have a choice!

I think listening to radar and Cairo argue has been the highlight of my night of being online. This is fun :)

Its better than tennis

I don't know wolf in tennis at least the players attempt to change strategies when there getting their asses kicked.

I agree with Cam...it's like two big cats snarling at each other. :)

I saw God at the corner deli the other day. We had a few minutes to chat and catch up as we were waiting on our hoagies. I hadn’t seen him lately so I was glad to see him again. He looks good as usual and is showing less age than Dick Clark .

We had the same little talk we normally do, I ask for the winning powerball numbers and a time machine. He asks that I stop being such a selfish asshole and to consider preparing less for the end of the world by hoarding food and military supplies. We both ask but neither of us receive what we want from the other.

He wanted me to pass on some messages. It seems that even God reads the cellar. Since he is a rather modest God and doesn’t care to register or post, I told him I would relay the messages.

<LI> The debate on religion is futile. </LI>
<LI> Radar, yer gonna burn dude. </LI>
<LI>Cairo, your posts are becoming less confrontational and that pleases the supreme one </LI>
<LI> Iraq and Saddam are toast come January. Get over it. </LI>
<LI> God votes Libertarian </LI>
<LI> Jesus carries an AK paratrooper model for it’s portability and stopping power</LI>
<LI> The Dems have been praying for miracles a lot lately. </LI>
<LI> The Bush admin is trying to compete with God via the Homeland Security Agency and this has not gone unnoticed. </LI>
<LI> God has recently granted Al Sharpton the ability to sound like a rational man on TV, but is very hesitant to grant his prayers for the White House.</LI>
<LI>Hillary is working out the details of a deal with the devil for the presidency in 04. He says he cant control that but wishes he could.</LI>

God regrets not being able to reply directly to many of the posts here in the cellar. He stopped posting in forums though after people rejected his screen name “God” and were mocking him. He’s not too pissed but just avoids the keyboard now. And lastly he sends good wishes to all .

God bless you, slang, thanks for lightening things up.

My God is better than Slang's god. ;)

Do you believe in god?

No.

BAM! Dead.

How about you? Do you believe in god?

Yes."

Do you believe in MY god?

No.

BAM! Dead!

My god has a bigger dick than your god. - George Carlin

My Goddess can beat up your God ...

HEY!!! Your karma ran over my dogma ...

Props to slang, syc and wolf, funny stuff guys =)

Stupidity can be hard on the eyes, so for the good of everyone else I’ve broken up Cairo’s drivel into multiple parts. It's also barely understandable, so breaking it help can help decipher what these jumbled inarticulate rambles are meant to mean.

*Rolls eyes* First you say,” What the article says is yes, the ozone hole got smaller this year, due to extremely unusual weather conditions. That is all.” Then you say,"...the fact that we are responsible for the severe damage we have inflicted on it."

Now that was the most logical thing I think Cairo has ever stated, mostly because he's merely quoting others. Sadly it only gets worse.

So...you disagree with NASA, or you think that we control the weather! Either way you're wrong. If we control the weather, why are the forecasters always wrong? And why don't we just turn on the sprinklers over drought areas? And whoever is in charge of my area's temp. dial...keep it set on 72, K? No more of this 102 in the summer and 32 in the winter!(end of sarcasm)

Can anyone, at first read, actually make any sense of this? At all? Dear Cairo, what are you on about now?

Now i hate to bore the rest of you but this petulant, mentally unarmed opponent of mine needs at least a rudimentary understanding of why there is an ozone hole where there is. Which, to be brief is because of certain stratospheric wind patterns which carry CFCs down to the area in which the hole is located.

Now the relevance of this is that the fact that we do/have done damage, and the fact that due to freak weather conditions, the damage was not in the usual places or the usual strength are not intertwined. The damage is not due, or have much relation to the weather, the weather is what carries to where the hole is, it is not responsible for the damage itself. Which in other words mean Cairo here as has, once again metaphorically shitted on the carpet, bad puppy!

:haha:

Hmmmm, "True scientists have no faith in science."
So by your own admission your "basic scientific fact" isn't a fact because science keeps evolving with new data that leads elsewhere. You refuted it yourself!

*sighs* You really are just plain dumb aren't you? It's like arguing with a small, rather whiney child. It's a scientific fact today, correct, tomorrow it might not be, but today it is. Can you grasp that one?

Jag, Cairo is a she.

oh well, i don't actually have enough respect for her, or her opinions to be bothered correcting it.

Originally posted by wolf
My Goddess can beat up your God ...

(God scratches his head and wonders how he screwed up to make the humans favor physical agression)

Hi! How was your Christmas? I was wondering if you could explain why the only time I saw angels was that time in college when we were drinking on the roof... well you know the story.

Originally posted by Griff
Hi! How was your Christmas?

(Speaks in booming but not painfully loud God voice)

Hello Griff. Very good thankyou. Of course, you know it’s basically just me and Jesus here on his birthday. I give the majority of angels their wings a few days before Christmas , and the others are busy trying to earn theirs. That way we get a little quality time together. Both of our schedules are quite busy during the year, this way he can open his presents undisturbed.

Yes, I do give him presents. He made out well this year, the economy is crappy and there were thousands of real bargains. It’s tough to find the perfect gift for your only son after giving gifts for thousands of years. I try not to overdo it though because he normally breaks the cool toys by new years. Many times just the box is still intact in January. There’s nothing more entertaining than seeing the savior of humanity crawl through a big box or stick his tongue out at me through a cutout in the side. Kids nowadays. What can you do?

I was wondering if you could explain why the only time I saw angels was that time in college when we were drinking on the roof... well you know the story.

That’s a good question. Let me try to explain some of my policies.

As you can imagine, I have a lot to do, so I have to delegate a lot of work. I have a printed “God policy” handbook for new angels and the majority read and follow them. Sometimes we get some angels that like to "show boat" the fact that they received their wings by allowing people to see them. This is clearly prohibited in the handbook, but it happens. The fact that you were drinking probably boosted the angel’s confidence that you wouldn’t take pictures and such. That’s a felony up here and I get bitchy when it happens. Please accept my most sincere apology.

Don’t think the lack of my personal attention in protecting you that day, and many others, means you are not very valuable to me. You are very important to me and people in the distant future. Your kids, and their kids will play a direct role in helping humanity in ways you cannot comprehend at this time. I’ll explain when you come up. It’s a bit too involved for this forum.

My last thought or request is that you try to be a little easier on George. You wouldn’t believe the strings I had to pull to get him in there, and I’m God! Do you think Gore would have done any better? I think not.<br>

Originally posted by Cairo

Hermit22 -
Yeah, Jaguar did a well enough job if you totally ignore NASA and common sense! Ha! *weighing the options here* Hmmmm, who's more credible? Jaguar or NASA, NASA or Jaguar??? I rest my case!

Actually, they both say the same thing: Global warming isn't a cut and dry issue, but what we are seeing is an increase in temperature beyond anything we can hypothesize from geological, etc. studies. And since we know that there is a direct relationship between some of our commonly used chemicals and depletion of ozone, and the relationship between a thinner ozone and global warming, only an idiot would think there isn't a relationship between the two.

Actually I meant to type $200 Million dollars per year, it was late and I rushed past the "00"...
Hey, I actually made the school system look good by my typo!

Ok, once I followed your link, I saw the concern. I thought you were trying to claim that a school system is supposed to somehow make money, which would be just ridiculous. $450 M is kind of a drop in the budget compared to the national school budget, but it still isn't a number that can get thrown away easily.

Still regurgitating the same crap in a longer, more irrational way revealing your Tyrannical thought process, I see....You are spinning like a top, my friend!

I find it ironic that Cairo's calling Radar Tyrannical for quoting anti-Tyrannical thinkers.

5. The Government has not interfered until it makes law...YOU, on the otherhand, are UNConstitutionally interfering by ramming a Godless Communist, no choice America down the throats of 90+% of American citizens who want to have a choice!

Why do Republicans see any dissent as Communist? Are they that stuck in the past? I mean, I realize that much of Republican rhetoric involves a return to what was (or what they believe was) but name calling such as this just seems ridiculous, especially given Radar's expressed libertarianism.

And what do you mean by the "90+% of American citizens"? If you think 90% of America is religious, then you're wrong. This past census showed the highest number of non-religious people - about 15%. Splitting hairs maybe, and you might not even be referring to the same thing as you seem to be.

Jaguar -
Your delusions of grandeur have run amok... or is it run dumbf*k! Your flatulence keeps insisting that man has caused the damage, when even the "real" scientists say the evidence is inconclusive.
The evidence NASA provided says, contrary to you, that for a full year there was repair to the ozone and NO DAMAGE, so if man causes the damage, I suppose the whole world decided to conserve energy, stop buying SUV's, stop our polluting factories, and the world is now buying enviro-safe products...
but just for one year, is THAT your logic??? What organizational skills President Bush has to pull this off!!! Man's usage of energy hasn't changed, the natural weather cycle has!

Since I only know the sum-up of the big picture, time to let the expert get technical on yo azzzz....

I'm Cairo's husband an HVAC tech that is universally certified by the EPA. 7 years experience.

I'm only going to tell your pinko ass this once so listen up.

Chloroflourocarbons are not the end of all ozone on earth by a long shot. The CFC O3 breakdown schematic that you are familiar with is incomplete.

Sunlight creates O3 by photoreaction with UV and O2. While CFC does crack O3 into O2 with a free oxygen ion that will strip another O3 of it's extra oxygen atom, and so on and so on. But that chain does not go on ad finitum. Chlorine is broken down in a matter of hours(if you ever owned an inground pool the chlorine maintenance during the summer should tell you how fast the sun will destroy unprotected chlorine-yes pools can use cyanuric acid to sun shield the chlorine) in direct sunlight, flourine fares no better. The sunlight reassembles the scattered oxygen compounds back into O3 in a very short order.

But that is all academic. My posit to my EPA instructor was how CFC and to a lesser degree HCFC were able to get to the upper atmosphere when it is a known fact that those compounds are heavier than air, and considerably heavier than ground level ozone(which purportedly can't reach the upper atmosphere in any significant quantities-can you differentiate chemically between synthetically generated ozone and stratosphereic? No, O3 is O3.
Needless to say he had no answer, because I had stayed awake during organic chemistry class and was not going to be snowjobbed with superflous verbage that covered up the fact the man couldn't diagram molecules much less molecular equations.

As for Australians and South Africans being seemingly more affected by the sun; it's genetic.
Both bloodlines are derived from predominately nordic and celtic stock. Both tribes are known to be susceptable to strong sunlight because the celts and the nords adapted over thousands of years to a latitude with indirect sunlight for the most part.
If it was truly an O3 related effect, even the native darkies would be affected. Not to mention that even a 1% decrease in UV shielding would start to sterilize the very environment around you. Bacteriums would start to die out, but viruses would start getting real hairy before they petered out.

Grapes haven't grown in england for over a thousand years, the fact that they once did tells you that the weather is always a changin'. Or are you going to blame the vikings for their environmental plight?

As for the ozone hole itself; we had never had the type of equipment that detected it available before. It is very unscientific to assume just because we were finally able see it meant it had just appeared. This is akin to believing that whales didn't communicate with one another until we invented the hydrophone.
There is every reason to believe that the ozone holes are largely natural, and if anything are important to the ecosystem of the poles-their absence seems to enable the already thin air to get even colder.
It's worth noting that the main reason reason the polar regions are so devoid of any vegetation is because of the lack of direct sunlight(lack of direct sunlight also limits the amount of radiated solar heat absorbed).

Direct sunlight is needed to cause oxygen molecules to photoreact into ozone.

So try getting a plain old chemistry book from about 1965-1969, that should insulate you from the political propaganda that developed around the environment in the early 1970's.
I would like to point out that the first earth day was held with the belief that we were going into a new ice age. It was held during the 1970's that aerosols were causing the earth to cool down too fast(yeah it was a cold decade, but nothing out of the historical norm). So one might be led to belive(if one believed everything that they were told) that the natural quick fix to global warming would be to mandate the reintroduction of aerosols into the consumer market.

But of course, aerosols weren't responsible for the cold streak of the 1970's anymore than CFC's were for the heat waves of the 1990's.

It's called weather, it's always changing.

I wouldn't call you stupid, just brainwashed and ignorant...an example of what the public school system has become.

Finally, No, your scientific theory is not a scientific fact today...it is still being studied as theory today. Fact is when it is final knowledge.

Hermit22 -
No, they don't say the same thing at all, Jaguar is under the impression that the whole world went on an "enviro-fasting" for only 1 year to reverse damage to justify NASA's proof of depletion.

Radar was quoting anti-christian thinkers specifically for un-christian reasons. And he is Tyrannical for his UNConstitutional prohibition of Religion stance.

I didn't call ~him~ a commie, per se...I said Communists are Godless(Hitler was Atheist), and Radar is touting for a Godless America. The conclusion you draw from this is up to you.

Saying 1 out of every 10 Americans are "non-religious" is a very generous percentage, in my opinion. Regardless, majority is majority.

Cairo: Once again, your circular logic gives away your total lack of intellectual ability and your claims that I’m “tyrannical” hold no water given the fact that by fighting the mixing of church and state I’m fighting tyranny itself.

You have no points for me to argue against. You make ludicrous claims that people’s right to exercise freedom of religion is infringed by not being allowed to post their religious doctrine in federally funded buildings. Posting the 10 commandments in a public place isn’t an exercise of religious freedom. It’s a violation of the 1st amendment because it amounts to respecting an establishment of religion (or even a few). Making laws that protect us from religious zealots violating the 1st amendment is not a law prohibiting the free exercise of religion. Praying is an exercise of religion, attempting to make a false connection of your religion to our government by posting your religious doctrine in publicly funded buildings is not an exercise of religious freedom.

1. No, the term separation of church and state is not in the Constitution, thus cannot be judged by our courts

Absolutely true, and absolutely irrelevant. As noted earlier, separationists take this language from Thomas Jefferson's 1802 letter to the Danbury Baptists in which he argued that the Constitution created a "wall of separation between church and state." But, as noted above, separationists have never taken the phrase as anything more than a handy (if historically significant) summary of the intent of the religion clauses of the First Amendment.

No magic attaches to a particular verbalization of an underlying concept. The concept at issue here is more accurately expressed in Madison's phrase 'separation between Religion and Government,' or in the popular maxim that 'religion is a private matter.

The phrase "Bill of Rights" has become a convenient term to designate the freedoms guaranteed in the first ten amendments; yet it would be the height of captiousness to argue that the phrase does not appear in the Constitution. Similarly, the right to a fair trial is generally accepted to be a constitutional principle; yet the term "fair trial" is not found in the Constitution. To bring the point even closer to home, who would deny that "religious liberty" is a constitutional principle? Yet that phrase too is not in the Constitution. The universal acceptance which all these terms, including "separation of church and state," have received in America would seem to confirm rather than disparage their reality as basic American democratic principles

Separation of church and state is an ideal that makes sure the Government can not overtake and control the church as our Founders saw Britain and other Monarchys do.

It’s a TOTAL AND COMPLETE separation of church and state. They wanted government out of religion and religion out of government.

The Constitution and Declaration are NOT Godless documents, they both acknowledge and recognize Religion/God.

That’s a complete and utter lie. Neither the constitution, nor the declaration of independence recognizes religion or the Judeo-Christian concept of god. The word “Creator” refers to a vague higher power such as nature. The founding fathers believed in NATURAL RIGHTS, not “god given” rights. I dare you to make a comparison between the declaration of independence and the Magna Carta or any other previous declaration of rights.

The Constitution not only grants citizens the Right to support the church of their choice, but also the Right to "free exercise thereof"...meaning not to prohibit an individuals actions, thoughts, and words concerning Religion.

Wrong again. The constitution doesn’t grant any rights. It protects the rights we’re born with. Preventing people from posting their religious doctrine in government places when that government is explicitly prohibited from putting any religion or religions above others isn’t infringing on the “free exercise” of any religions and it’s ridiculous to claim otherwise.

I am not Christian, and do not follow the teachings of Jesus...so I agree with Jefferson, somewhat. But who am I to unconstitutionally demand that those who do be prohibited?...The Taliban?!!!!

Again you make an outrageous and false comparison. It’s not unconstitutional, tyrannical, or oppressive to allow people to practice their religions freely but prevent them from using oppressive, unconstitutional, or tyrannical means to force their religion down the throats of others. And when your lame attempts to throw logic to the wind fail and people see through your transparent bullshit you resort to calling people names like “Mr. Taliban”.

You see, the difference between you and me is my America offers a choice.

No, the difference between us is that I present intelligent, thoughtful, cogent arguments that make perfect sense and you make ludicrous and false claims backed by circular logic and hypocritical accusations.

My America allows anyone to pray anywhere they want, but not to force other Americans to pay for instructor lead prayers, unconstitutional mixing of church and state through the posting of religious doctrine, naming deities in oaths, on currency, etc. My America doesn’t prohibit or restrict any beliefs. Your America is unconstitutional, tyrannical, oppressive, and wrong! My America is all about freedom for EVERYONE, personal responsibility, limited government, etc. while yours is about an unconstitutional, imperialistic, theocracy forcing one or several religions into the lives of other Americans (or foreigners) who don’t subscribe to those beliefs.

We the People own those buildings, and I believe all Religions should donate to them. That encourages a multi-religion nation.

We’re not a multi-religion nation, or any religion. The United States government has no place in religion and NO RELIGIONS have any place in our government.

The Government has not interfered until it makes law...YOU, on the otherhand, are UNConstitutionally interfering by ramming a Godless Communist, no choice America down the throats of 90+% of American citizens who want to have a choice!

The government can do lots of interfering without making laws. There is no constitutional amendment giving the government the legal authority to prohibit drugs yet they do. YOU support UNCONSTITUTIONALLY ramming some religions down the throats of 100% of Americans while I want to give people choice. The choice to practice any religion they choose, or no religion at all without the government sanctioning or recognizing any particular religion(s) above any others by UNCONSTITUTIONALLY allowing any religious doctrine to be posted in the buildings owned by everyone including atheists, Buddhists, Muslims, and hundreds of other Non-Christian and Non-Jewish religions and sects.

The “wall of separation of church and state” mentioned by Jefferson in the letter to the Danbury Baptists or in his other writings is not one-directional and nothing any of the founding fathers have ever written suggests otherwise.

And for the record the Supreme Court building was finished in 1935 and the 10 commandments were posted at THAT time. NOT by the founding fathers. The 10 commandments were added by ignorant religious zealots long after the founding fathers were dead and buried. The same is true of “God” on our currency, in our oaths, and in anywhere else in our government. They believed that the total and complete separation of all religions and government were good for government and good for religions.

I don't know wolf in tennis at least the players attempt to change strategies when there getting their asses kicked.

Very true. I’m an avid tennis fan. Hopefully you’ll be able to help Cairo since he’s been getting his ass kicked since before this thread even started.

Radar was quoting anti-christian thinkers specifically for un-christian reasons. And he is Tyrannical for his UNConstitutional prohibition of Religion stance.

I did no such thing. I was quoting non-Christian (not anti-Christian) creators of this nation for constitutionally accurate reasons. I’m not tyrannical but you are. You support using the force of government to push one set of religious doctrine down the throats of others despite this not being an exercise of religion but just an exercise of power over other citizens.

Radar is touting for a Godless America. The conclusion you draw from this is up to you.

I’m the least communist man on the face of the earth. Nice attempt at a red herring though. Way to try to draw attention from your complete lack of substance in this debate. The government of the united states ACTUALLY IS godless. It always has been and hopefully always will be. The people of America on the other hand worship as many deities as they choose. They may not choose, however, to make others view or recognize their religious doctrine or to add any credibility to that doctrine by UNCONSTITUTIONALLY AND TYRANNICALLY posting it in federal buildings, courts, or other establishments of our godless government.

Saying 1 out of every 10 Americans are "non-religious" is a very generous percentage, in my opinion. Regardless, majority is majority.

Wow! Do you ever tire of being consistently wrong? You must not because you do it more consistently than anyone else I have seen.

First off if you add up all the atheists, agnostics, secular humanists, etc. you’d have much more than 15%. And if you add in all non-practicing religious people, you’d have even more non-religious people. Next if you add up all the religions that aren’t Christian or Jewish in America you would have less than 50% of the population. But even if each and every person except for one….me for instance wanted to post the 10 commandments in courthouses it still couldn’t be done because it goes directly against the constitution and making a law to post them goes against it too. Our INALIENABLE rights aren’t up for debate. They can’t be voted on, taken away, or even willingly given away. They aren’t given to us by government, the constitution, or even god unless you consider nature to be god. So a majority of religious people is irrelevant. Just like your entire argument.

You have been schooled. Class is dismissed, so run along child.

(God strokes his beard and thinks to himself)

Me-dammit, maybe it's time for another flood. Or perhaps I'll create some disease for the coffee bean and just let humanity collapse into chaos and destroy itself. Things just arent they way they were, thats for sure. No one believes in me any more, no one fears me or loves me. I just get half assed requests for bullshit nowadays. "I need money, I want power, make my penis larger"...christ, I get sick of it. Ahhwell, maybe the next time I'll get it right.

God's list of things to do differently next go-round:

<LI> Make regular dramatic personal appearances in a somewhat human form. It’s kinda tough to deny I exist if I throw some lightening around once in a while. </LI>
<LI> Fix the dogs’ lips. The Bulldog and the Boxer are living examples of my personal failure, and embarrass me. How is a God supposed to receive the respect he deserves with mistakes like this walking all over the earth</LI>
<LI> Discontinue the marijuana plant experiment. It creates too much trouble. </LI>
<LI> Make regular assassinations of “un godly” leaders. Humans aren’t equipped to deal with the responsibility of policing the world. At the same time, I like to watch TV just as much as any other god, and cant be bothered with the day to day details of running their government. I need to spank ass on occasion and delegate more. </LI>
<LI> I need to develop an effective strategy for preventing people from arguing and fighting over me, what I say, and what I have done. Maybe if I held a weekly press conference or a talk radio program I could eliminate some of this nonsense. I thought the bible was good enough. Back in the day it was cutting edge, text on paper pages bound to contain them. It seems to have lost it's appeal though.
<LI> Redesign the human body to be born with clothes that are are living, but machine washable. </LI>
<LI> Make all people the same color. I fucked that one up last time. </LI>
<LI> Build in a gene that grows into cancer when that person has thoughts of creating any form of tax system. </LI>
<LI> Create an appendage specifically for self defense. Maybe some type of horn or tusk that can extend into a defensive position on demand. </LI>


This would make these goof balls look much differently than I do and I would have to rewrite the “God made man in his own image” passage. It would be easier than leaving them the same though.

Just for the record, I never asked that you make my penis larger.


I have other prayers that need to be answered right now.

Originally posted by Cairo
Jaguar -
Your delusions of grandeur have run amok... or is it run dumbf*k! Your flatulence keeps insisting that man has caused the damage, when even the "real" scientists say the evidence is inconclusive.

It's delusions of grandeur and stupidity that make people think they have no effect on the environment. It's rationale that makes people realize that humanity is part of a whole, not some clean room specimen.

The evidence NASA provided says, contrary to you, that for a full year there was repair to the ozone and NO DAMAGE, so if man causes the damage, I suppose the whole world decided to conserve energy, stop buying SUV's, stop our polluting factories, and the world is now buying enviro-safe products...
but just for one year, is THAT your logic??? What organizational skills President Bush has to pull this off!!! Man's usage of energy hasn't changed, the natural weather cycle has!

Again, we don't know enough. But we do know that clorine and hydrogen levels have gone down. We do know that people in most of the first world are making deliberate efforts to be more environmentally friendly, and have been for several years. The anti-environmental Bush had nothing to do with it, and, in fact, took negative steps (see Kyoto, business regulations, etc.)
Cairo, you earlier claimed that in the modern era, people can't take personal responsibility for their actions. This line of thought falls victim to the same mentality you deride so readily.

I'm Cairo's husband an HVAC tech that is universally certified by the EPA. 7 years experience.

I thought you were an Arab-hating reformed leftist with suicidal tendencies who taught history?

Sunlight creates O3 by photoreaction with UV and O2. While CFC does crack O3 into O2 with a free oxygen ion that will strip another O3 of it's extra oxygen atom, and so on and so on. But that chain does not go on ad finitum. Chlorine is broken down in a matter of hours(if you ever owned an inground pool the chlorine maintenance during the summer should tell you how fast the sun will destroy unprotected chlorine-yes pools can use cyanuric acid to sun shield the chlorine) in direct sunlight, flourine fares no better. The sunlight reassembles the scattered oxygen compounds back into O3 in a very short order.

But that is all academic. My posit to my EPA instructor was how CFC and to a lesser degree HCFC were able to get to the upper atmosphere when it is a known fact that those compounds are heavier than air, and considerably heavier than ground level ozone(which purportedly can't reach the upper atmosphere in any significant quantities-can you differentiate chemically between synthetically generated ozone and stratosphereic? No, O3 is O3.

I'm not an HVAC tech (which obviously gives great environmental credentials) - but at least I've heard of wind and don't think my pool mimics the upper atmosphere.
What I do know is that there are 2 areas of ozone - upper atmosphere and regular atmosphere ozone. The holes are in both. Upper atmosphere is hit hardest by CFCs, lower by radical hydrogen atoms.

As for Australians and South Africans being seemingly more affected by the sun; it's genetic.
Both bloodlines are derived from predominately nordic and celtic stock. Both tribes are known to be susceptable to strong sunlight because the celts and the nords adapted over thousands of years to a latitude with indirect sunlight for the most part.

And native Chileans? Are they from nordic/celtic stock? No, the ozone hole was very real when it extended into Southern Chile and started burning the residents of Punta Arenas.

As for the ozone hole itself; we had never had the type of equipment that detected it available before. It is very unscientific to assume just because we were finally able see it meant it had just appeared. This is akin to believing that whales didn't communicate with one another until we invented the hydrophone.

No it's not, because you didn't say that they were suddenly communicating about us, or because we were holding them captive for study.
It's a stupid argument. Come up with another one.
In addition, to assume that a decades-long trend of accelerated expansion in a hole in the atmosphere has nothing to do with humanity's increased industrialization is like claiming the skies over Los Angeles are smoggy because of the weather.

So try getting a plain old chemistry book from about 1965-1969, that should insulate you from the political propaganda that developed around the environment in the early 1970's.

Right, because the last 35 years of chemistry is all wrong. Someone abhors change.

Eh, I'm tired, this endless bickering is annoying. Both sides need to be willing to explore the claims of the other, but, unfortunately for you, the scientists that claim there is no man-made global warming have been proven wrong, their methods questioned, and the oversights in their analysis publicized. It doesn't help that the most prominent of these (I can't remember his name right now) is associated with the Heritage Foundation and not some non-partisan group.

Anyway, go back to teaching vermin-filled history to HVACs who carry around a bullet to take their own life if the need arose.

Originally posted by Cairo
Hermit22 -

I didn't call ~him~ a commie, per se...I said Communists are Godless(Hitler was Atheist), and Radar is touting for a Godless America. The conclusion you draw from this is up to you.

I didn't say you did. I said you labeled any dissent as Communist, which would refer to his comments, not him.

And Godlessness means Atheism. Just because Communists were Atheists doesn't mean all Atheists are Communists. And you're historically stupid if you think Hitler was Communist. He hated the Reds. Again, just because x and y are both in the set z, that doesn't mean x = y.

It might be a good idea to re-examine your ideas of right and wrong. This way of thinking indicates that you may have a problem seeing grays and not just black and white.

*sighs*
I think hermit did a reasonably good job answering all of that crap. He also did a good job of pointing out some of your deeper flaws and endless hypocrisy. I'd like you to point out some solid scientific evidence that all the shit we've been pumping into the atmosphere has no effect, verses the mountains of detailed scientific analysis that tells quite a different story

As for you trash about races, tehehehe... You completely missed my point, the UV readings here sit almost steady in the 'extreme' to 'high extreme' range, know why? Because there a fucking great hole in the only thing that protects us from instant suntan over my head. Now while your highly stated oversized aircon installing credentials may have further clouded your already foggy vision of reality, hermit did a pretty solid job of pointing out the obvious weakness in your rather silly argument.

Since, unlike you, I don't think my husbands glorified aircon installation credentials are the best authority on environmental science, I did a bit of poking round the web, and out came this:

In their 1974 research findings, chemists M. Molina and F.S. Rowland built upon the work of chemist P. Crutzen to show how human-produced chlorofluorocarbons CFCs could reduce total stratospheric ozone. In the troposphere, CFCs are stable and inert, but when they reach the stratosphere through convective air movements, the sun's ultraviolet rays cause them to decompose and release chlorine atoms. Through a series of catalytic reactions, the free chlorine atom is capable of destroying hundreds of thousands of ozone atoms. This theory was verified by the NASA Upper Atmosphere Research Satellite in 1987, when it detected high amounts CIO (a reactive chlorine species) along with decreasing ozone. In 1995, Crutzen, Molina, and Rowland shared the Nobel Prize for Chemistry for their pioneering work in the effects of man-made chemicals on the ozone layer.

Well, well. The research was done my NASA, the same people you've been trying to tell me, incorrectly, believe that the minor decrease in the size of the ozone hole was evidence that the last 25 years of science was rubbish. As I previously pointed out the shrink was due to changes in stratospheric wind patterns, which were extremely unusual and as stated above, it is indeed wind that moves these up, and to where the hole is.

Do us all a favour and go back to teaching your kids that being a liberal makes baby jesus cry or whatever you do for kicks.

Radar -
Of course you don't want to address and answer my points...you have no answers and can't back up your fabricated puke!
What part of "Congress shall make no law..." do you not understand?
You say,"The Government can do lots of interfering without making laws."
This supposed "interfering" you refer to is called THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE or Democracy. Our currency,oaths, and anywhere else were voted on by We the People, it's not law, it's will!
As for drugs, well, we could take a vote on it, but drug use is not a constitutional right, so there are laws made against it. If a vote on religious historical donations to a public building were offered a 90+% Majority would allow it, but constitutioal rights need no vote to be allowed.
First you need to learn what Democracy and will of the people means, because America is for the people, by the people. Then you need to read the Federalist Papers.

Tyrannical refers to individuals who force a minority, unpopular, and oppressive ideal/act upon the majority against their will. On this issue I am part of the majority you wish to oppress with secular humanist religion! As in, I am with the masses, you are with the asses! Get it?!!!

You say,"They wanted Government out of Religion and Religion out of Government."
In so far as "make no law". The only laws that have been unconstitutionally made were from the bench by our courts! Decisions that legally prohibit the people, and establish the Religion of Secular Humanists into the Government...excluding all religions and allowing a single ruling religion is what the 1st Amendment was meant to prevent!

The Bill of Rights was amended and ratified into the Constitution, "separation of church and state" was in a private letter from Thomas Jefferson to Danbury Baptists assuring them that Congregationalists would not become the national religion. Strictly a personal letter, not made in an official capacity as it is misinterpreted today.

http://w3.trib.com/FACT/1st.jeffers.2.html

The reality, as you admit, is that the term and interpretation of"separation of church and state" is NOT a Constitutionality issue for our courts to decide and make law on...to do so is interpreting the Constitution, not law.

Creator is ONE who creates. As in Being. Pay close attention to Thomas Jefferson's definition of Creator: 'Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His Wrath?...'
And more quotes from Founding Fathers and others that PROVE the historical God-fearing principles of America...whatever America has become today, she was born Judeo-Christian!

http://www.shalom.jerusalem.com/heritage/heritage15.html

So in conclusion, your pathetic attempt to censor Religion is UNConstitutional and baseless, like the DemocRATS telling us they pledge to raise taxes to balance the budget and We the People will like it!... Uh, No we won't and you just lost the vote!
You said, the Constitution is not to be interpreted, and I agree. Therefore, if our Founding Fathers had meant "practice", they would have written "practice". If they had meant "praying privately" they would have written that. No, they wrote FREE EXERCISE, which means any form of action, no boundries.
When I said you were shoving a Godless America down the throats of 90+% of Americans...that was rational critical thinking because you and our courts have decided to make law prohibiting the free exercise of religions against the will of the people.
When YOU say I am shoving God down the throats of 100% of Americans...not only is that irrational and hysterical, it's a flat out LIE! Mostly because of MY 1st Amendment Right to free exercise thereof.
Pornography is shoved down the throats of others, taxes are forced down the thoats of others, hate-speech is forced down the throats of others, abortion is forced down the throats of others, some think guns are forced down their throats, and I feel mainstream liberal-puke media is forced down my throat!...yet they are protected, YOU probably protect and support these Rights.
See your hypocracy?!?!!

Of course you don't want to address and answer my points...you have no answers and can't back up your fabricated puke!

The only point you have is on the top of your head.

What part of "Congress shall make no law..." do you not understand?

I understand it fully. What part of “respecting an establishment of religion” do you not understand? I’m not asking the government to create laws preventing the free exercise of religion; not even close. I’m asking government to prevent others from violating the 1st amendment. Laws against the violation of the 1st amendment ARE NOT laws that prevent the free exercise of religion. <BZZZZZT> Try again.

This supposed "interfering" you refer to is called THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE or Democracy.

America isn’t a democracy Einstein. It’s a democratic republic and the “will of the people” doesn’t matter with regard to our INALIENABLE rights. They can NEVER be voted on by the people.

Our currency,oaths, and anywhere else were voted on by We the People, it's not law, it's will!

<BZZZZZZT> Wrong Again! Pull your head out of your ass and come up for air before you get even more brain damaged. The people didn’t vote to put the word “god” on these things and even if they wanted to it would be a violation of the 1st amendment so nothing less than a constitutional amendment would allow for such violations of the intentions of our founding fathers to keep all religion out of our government and all government out of religion.

As for drugs, well, we could take a vote on it, but drug use is not a constitutional right, so there are laws made against it.

<BZZZZZZT> Strike Three! You’re out! Drug use ACTUALLY IS a constitutional right. The 9th amendment is as follows:

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Which means the rights of the people are NOT limited to what is listed in the constitution.

The 10th amendment says:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

This means anything NOT listed in the constitution is a right of the people and the federal government has no authority to make decisions regarding these things or to prohibit them. The federal government may ONLY do those things specifically listed in the constitution and NOTHING ELSE!!!

So since using drugs is NOT listed in the constitution it is a right of the people and can’t be governed by the fed. And since the 14th amendment says the states can’t do anything the fed isn’t allowed to do, the states can’t prohibit it either. And since I’ve PROVEN that using drugs is an inalienable right it can’t be voted on or given away.

The public can’t vote on anything they want because government isn’t all powerful. The rights of individuals supercedes the powers of government.

If a vote on religious historical donations to a public building were offered a 90+% Majority would allow it, but constitutioal rights need no vote to be allowed.

Once again you’re talking out of your ass. You have no way of knowing how people would vote. But they can’t vote for it because it’s unconstitutional to allow them to vote on it. Although most people including Christians would be against posting the 10 commandments in courthouses. Even Jesus of Nazareth himself taught that prayer shouldn’t be done in public and that church and state should remain separate. True Christians follow his teachings and wouldn’t allow the 10 commandments to be posted unconstitutionally as you would have them do.

First you need to learn what Democracy and will of the people means, because America is for the people, by the people. Then you need to read the Federalist Papers.

You need to step back and realize that America isn’t a democracy and never has been. We’re a democratic republic and the powers of government are very limited. And you need to realize that the government doesn’t represent the wishes of the American people. Government is not the people. If it were, when the Nazis killed the German Jews they would have been considered to have committed suicide since the government is the people and the people killed the people. I am more familiar with the Federalist papers, the constitution, the declaration of independence, American history, the writings of our founding fathers, the authors the founding fathers read, the powers of government, and constitutional law than you will ever be. You clearly know nothing what-so-ever about the U.S. Constitution, the type of government we have, the limits on our government’s authority, etc. I suggest you read a book for a change.

Tyrannical refers to individuals who force a minority, unpopular, and oppressive ideal/act upon the majority against their will.

Tyranny has nothing to do with majority or minority, but it does have to do with force. The majority of Germany was with the Nazi party. So by your logic the things they did to the Jewish people weren’t tyrannical. And if you want a perfect example of a tyrannical force pushing their oppressive ideals onto people just look at those who want to UNCONSTITUTIONALLY force their religious doctrine down the throats of their fellow citizens through posting 10 commandments, instructor lead prayers, god in oaths, on currency, etc. That’s as tyrannical as using government to tell people what religion they should or shouldn’t believe. In fact that’s exactly what it is.

On this issue I am part of the majority you wish to oppress with secular humanist religion! As in, I am with the masses, you are with the asses! Get it?!!!

Once again, you are with the masses of asses who want to mix church and state despite it being unconstitutional.

The Bill of Rights was amended and ratified into the Constitution, "separation of church and state" was in a private letter from Thomas Jefferson to Danbury Baptists

Show me the phrase “bill of rights” in the constitution. It’s not there. Neither are the phrases “fair trial”, “religious liberty”, or “separation of church and state” but they’re all equally associated with the constitution and all principles upon which it was made.

The “creator” of America was a group of NON-Christian/Non-Jewish men. So America is most definitely NOT Judeo-Christian.
In conclusion, you have added nothing since my last post where I schooled you and proved everything I said. You have nothing of value to add to this conversation but your baseless claims, circular logic, and lame insults. Your entire argument consists of putting your fingers in your ears and saying “la la la, I can’t hear you!!” Your failed attempts to provide even one thing to support your claims has only made you look more stupid, which is a pretty difficult task.

No, they wrote FREE EXERCISE, which means any form of action, no boundries.

My religion requires me to make human sacrifices of idiots who want to violate my constitutional amendments. Since no law can be made to prevent this I guess you’re dead meat.

Free exercise = freedom to worship. NOT freedom to violate the constitution, freedom to do anything in the name of religion, or freedom to unconstitutionally post your particular religious doctrine in government buildings as a violation of the 1st amendment.

You are a pathetic loser and a pathological liar. You lack the intellectual ability to carry on a logical debate. You’re a worthless, ignorant, loudmouthed, idiot without a single thing to support your unconstitutional, draconian, and tyrannical wishes to mix church and state. Even the Christian belief system itself is against mixing the two, or praying in public.

You so-called ideas about the constitution are laughable and so are you. I don’t know whether to laugh at you for being such a clown or to weep for you because you’re so pathetic and sad. In either case I hope that you’ll grow up and get educated.

Your not worthy of further responses from me. I will reserve my effort for those intelligent enough to comprehend facts, those that don't constantly lie, and those who know when they've been beaten. You lose on all counts.

originally posted by Assclown
Your [sic] not worthy of further responses from me. I will reserve my effort for those intelligent enough to comprehend facts, those that don't constantly lie, and those who know when they've been beaten. You lose on all counts.

Oh, please don't stop. Not yet. Watching you two retards hurl bullshit at each other has been tremendously amusing for the rest of us.

No. Really. You can't buy this kind of entertainment. Watching you and Cairo arguing about religion and government has been like watching an autistic child trying to explain quantum physics to a goat.

Oh. And remember the part in your last post- where you called Cairo a "a worthless, ignorant, loudmouthed, idiot"? That was beautiful, man. That brought a tear to my eye, it was so funny. Thank you.

File this latest HB gem here.

(slang opens his back window, takes a deep breath and yells at his capacity)

<H3>This debate is driving me crazy(er) and I can't take it any more!!</H3>

(birds fly quickly out of trees, cats and dogs run in fear and a hibernating bear rolls over in discomfort)

No. Really. You can't buy this kind of entertainment. Watching you and Cairo arguing about religion and government has been like watching an autistic child trying to explain quantum physics to a goat.

props again to HB for my morning chuckle.

Originally posted by a cock smoker


Watching you and Cairo arguing about religion and government has been like watching an autistic child trying to explain quantum physics to a goat.

Even autisic children are brighter than you. I don't expect Cairo to comprehend quantum physics, but even a goat can learn something as simple as knowing it's time to eat when they hear a bell.

Cairo and Radar should take this act on the road.

I just cleaned up an assload of ants that had invaded my kitchen, and I sat down at my computer to work in a really bad mood. This thread totally changed that. I'm still laughing.

Happy to cheer you up Hermit

Radar -
You couldn't school a fish out of a paper bag, you ignorant mook, so don't break your arm, man.
Federal and State Congress represents the will of the people, MORON, they didn't get there by answering an add in the paper! Shit-for-brains!
Congress(representing the will of the people) voted to put "In God We Trust" on currency, it's not a law and could change if the people will it to change...but we won't! America is part Democracy, what do you think State propositions are at election time...what do you think elections and people voting is called, Dumbazz!!!! Who mandates the State's standards for Marriage? IDIOT!

Drug use is NOT a Constitutional Right until it is Amended as such...you understand how that works right? Abortion was not a Right and WAS illegal until it was Amended...you are such a stupid piece of crap! Drugs are a State issue, but the Fed. Govt. gets into it through Highway funding. You should know this if you are informed.

Tyranny has to do with no choice. You say the Majority of Germany was forced to be with the Nazi party...I say the Majority had no choice. Same thing really, Hitler got rid of the opposition and the election was a choice of Demo-Socialists, Nationalists, or Communists, all of whom had the same "Government controls all" ideals. It was a veiled version of Saddam's "election".
If you have to sink to dishonest debate by putting words in my mouth to argue things I never said, you might as well just argue with yourself. You are arguing about using the Government to establish religion, when YOU are the pompus turd using the courts to establish Secular Humanist Religion! What a hypocrit, make up your mind!

The phrases AREN'T in there, asswipe, that's MY point! The revisionist interpretations of those phrases are NOT Constitutional, so why are the courts making law from the bench based on them????

Did you read the links? No, because you are a pinko commie revisionist who wants to turn America into something it's NOT! You can't find any reference in the Constitution, Declaration, or Federalist Papers to support your views. The private letter from Jefferson you did offer supports MY view that a National Religion ruling over the people is what they feared, not embracing and showing the choice of multi-religions in America! Everything else you offered was opinion based on a buttload of revisionary interpretation that makes it up as they go along!
America's historical past supports my views, God was not prohibited in America's birth, and He won't be prohibited in her future...so move to China,you would fit right in pink boy!
You are a sorry excuse for a human being, and a complete waste of my time and breath. Save your puke for someone who IS gullible enough to buy it... I don't buy processed shit that has been infested by maggots!

(God walks over to Radar and Cairo scrapping....grabs both by the shirt collar)

Cairo....you go to that corner (spanks her butt to the direction of the corner)...Radar....you go to the other corner (spanks his butt to the direction of the other corner)

Both of you need a "time out" for being mean to the other. As entertaining as all this ISN'T, you two are just too much. Radar, put Cairo on ignore. Cairo, put Radar on ignore.

Have a nice day.

God

(slang chuckles to himself)


I'd put God on ignore, he's an ass. I never listen to him anyway.

Federal and State Congress represents the will of the people, MORON, they didn't get there by answering an add in the paper! Shit-for-brains!

No, they don’t represent the will of the people. They are elected to represent the will of the people but often do the opposite of what they say they will do. What color is the sky on your planet? Here on earth it’s blue and politicians don’t keep their promises to the public.

Congress(representing the will of the people) voted to put "In God We Trust" on currency, it's not a law and could change if the people will it to change...but we won't!

The “will of the people” means the will of the majority of Americans. Not the will of a vocal minority like the religious right. And that’s exactly who put the word “god” on our currency and prohibited alcohol. A bunch of religious zealots known as the temperance movement.

[/quote]America is part Democracy, what do you think State propositions are at election time...what do you think elections and people voting is called, Dumbazz!!!! [/quote]

It’s called a democratic republic. Democracy is there, but it’s compartmentalized to prevent the abuse of power from vocal but tyrannical groups like those who would unconstitutionally post the 10 commandments in court houses.

Who mandates the State's standards for Marriage? IDIOT!

Neither the state, nor federal government has any authority to mandate marriages in any way. Any laws that claim they do are unconstitutional.

Drug use is NOT a Constitutional Right until it is Amended as such...you understand how that works right?

There’s no amendment allowing you to eat, yet you do. You do understand that people don’t get their rights from the government don’t you? Of course you don’t. You do understand that we don’t get our rights from the constitution don’t you? Of course you don’t. You do understand that everything NOT listed in the constitution is a right of the people don’t you? Of course you don’t.

Abortion was not a Right and WAS illegal until it was Amended...you are such a stupid piece of crap!

Abortion has been a right since before America was created. It’s a natural right and the government has no authority to make any rulings on it one way or the other.

Drugs are a State issue, but the Fed. Govt. gets into it through Highway funding. You should know this if you are informed.

I know how the fed CLAIMS to have authority but they don’t. They claim that growing your own cannabis in your backyard and consuming it constitutes “interstate” traffic. This of course is not the case.

Tyranny has to do with no choice.

Yes, like no choice in the matter of whether you are forced to see religious doctrine posted in courthouses that are part of a government restricted from doing such in the constitution because it amounts to respecting an establishment of religion.

You say the Majority of Germany was forced to be with the Nazi party...I say the Majority had no choice.

No I didn’t say they were forced to be part of the Nazi party or to kill jews. They CHOSE to follow these orders.

The phrases AREN'T in there, asswipe, that's MY point! The revisionist interpretations of those phrases are NOT Constitutional, so why are the courts making law from the bench based on them????

I haven’t revised anything. The constitution and the declaration of independence are models of non-religious documents. They were made specifically to eliminate any religion from government and vice versa. I’ve backed up what I’ve said using the constitution itself.

Did you read the links? No, because you are a pinko commie revisionist who wants to turn America into something it's NOT!

There you go again calling me a pinko and a commie despite the fact that I’m the least communist man on earth. How typical. America is and forever shall be a Non-Judeo-Christian nation. The government of America wasn’t based on any part of any religion.

You can't find any reference in the Constitution, Declaration, or Federalist Papers to support your views.

Every one of those supports my views because my views are the same as those of our founding fathers. Every single thing written by Jefferson, Franklin, Madison, Paine, Washington, Adams, and all of the other founders backs up what I’ve said. And why would I look at your lame sites when you obviously haven’t even read the constitution?

You are so pathetic it’s ridiculous. You’re so emotional and insulting because you know I’m right. You know that I’ve proven every single thing I’ve said. Now go cry yourself to sleep because you’ve been beaten and beaten and beaten again and again and again. You’re like Cool hand Luke except that you’re not cool. You’re just an idiot, who gets beat and keeps getting back up despite embarrassing yourself with your every utterance.

You have yet to backup anything you've said and I don't hold out much hope that you ever will or that you'll ever be able to carry on a rational conversation since you're so emotionally unstable and completely ignorant.

Ah this is funny, Cairo seems to have stopped answering hermit and i (took long enough to give up) but hell yes, this is the funniest pile of shit i've seen in a while.

Radar mon ami, you can get away with many, many thignson here, including bagging most people but noone, including you has justification yet to bag HB

Just to make sure all bases are covered, I came across this story today which details a scientific finding of a devastating COOLING trend. We're talking about a five degree shift downwards for most of North America, a 10 degree shift downwards for the northeast US and for Western Europe, and no amount of SUV usage will solve it:

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/4689103.htm

You couldn't school a fish out of a paper bag, you ignorant mook, so don't break your arm, man.

Uh,..what does this mean? Why is the fish in a bag? Wouldnt plastic be more appropriate or does paper have some additional meaning? Or maybe a bucket or barrel? What is this schooling out of which you speak? Does it refer to a school of fish? Teaching a school of fish maybe? Maybe beating up the fish? Could the rigor of this endeavor break one's arm? Is this kind of like the "Jerk Store" line?

I was wondering what a mook is.

And UT, that article says that one of the working theories is that global warming is to blame for that - the glaciers are melting, which is forming the freshwater lake in the North Atlantic.

It also says that there's nothing we can do.

I think it shows just how much we don't understand - which, of course, works against both sides. However, I think there's a moral argument to the idea that we shouldn't be belching out so many harmful chemicals into our atmosphere.

I was wondering what a mook is.

what i want to know is, what the fuck is a dumbazz?

~james

Maybe a mook is some kind of slight against people that weak mooks clothing? Dumbazz? My guess is a really, really rough bass guitar or something.

Well...maybe the dumbazz is the fish (large mouth dumbazz) that's found in the paper sack, or bag depending on your region, and the mook is a tool used for instruction.

Porn industry insider? Wouldn't shock me.

No, it said it's a term that insiders use to describe the end-users of porn. But I think the entry about it being slang used by Italian-Americans sounds like the most likely origin of the term.

No, no...Its the wooden Kung Fu dummy reference. It all makes sense now.

Hey, can I help it if the term has a variety of uses? :)

The rich, shifting, multiplicity of interpretations is demonstrated.:)

search google for dumbazz, it pulls up a lot of forum posts matching the quality of many seen here on the cellar lately.

~james

Originally posted by jaguar
Porn industry insider? Wouldn't shock me.

Glendora is right by San Fernando and Pasadena...the porn capital of the world...

I was..... sad to reach the end of this thread.

So....... very sad.

Someone hold me.

Glendora is right by San Fernando and Pasadena...the porn capital of the world...

Over 90% of the porn movies in the world are made in the San Fernando Valley. Most of which are in Chatsworth.......I heard......*ahem*

Originally posted by Radar


Over 90% of the porn movies in the world are made in the San Fernando Valley. Most of which are in Chatsworth.......I heard......*ahem*

And the constitution prohibits the establishment of porn and god shooting heroin into the 9th amendment.

Furthermore any cock smoker that thinks otherwise should have his dick slapped out of the mouth of the bottle he has it in.....at work.

Originally posted by slang
I'd put God on ignore, he's an ass. I never listen to him anyway.

Wolf steps slightly to one side to avoid the thunderbolt, looks up at the sky and says, "Forgive him, Lord, He knows not what he says ..."

Abortion is NOT a consititional right. That would require Congress to vote on an amendment to the Constitution. Roe v. Wade is a Supreme Court decision.

The last thing that made it in was the 18 y.o. vote ...

You might want to reread the Consitition. Radar too.

The consititution details a number of different things, including the functioning of our governmental process, and also provides the information regarding the limitations that the govt has with respect to impacting the citizenry.

Just because something is not specifically probited in the constitution doesn't make it legal or allowable.

The Consititution, does not, for example, make any mention of murder ... or drug use. Those are both matters of common law and of the community standard.

Originally posted by wolf
The last thing that made it in was the 18 y.o. vote ...

Actually Wolf, this is the last amendment, added in 1992:

Amendment XXVII

No law, varying the compensation for the services of the Senators and Representatives, shall take effect, until an election of Representatives shall have intervened.

Originally posted by wolf
Wolf steps slightly to one side to avoid the thunderbolt

Dont worry Wolf, I can throw a bolt of lightning around corners, through flooring, ceilings, you name it.

Give up on what? Trying to clue you 3x losers? I should, why bother?....

I have a life, two kids, and XBX live...why would I want to even try and waste too much of my time on you boorish dolts.

I work HVAC and have a high degree of intrest in the subject. It allows my intrest in chemistry to have tangible real world applications that I(and others) visably appreciate.

The pool was only used to illustrate the overall sensitivity to sunlight that chlorine has.
You are being an ass to infer anything else.

As for the CFC decomposition, it's no big deal. The sunlight repairs it during it's daily process of re-energizing the atmosphere. I'm not saying that CFC doesn't crack ozone, I'm saying it doesn't amount to much. Since the CFC ozone cracking process is photoenergized, the only time CFC is cracking ozone is the same time that THE SUN is generating hundreds billions of ozone molecules at the same time it is ionizing the now liberated chlorine and flourine radicals.

The CFC may be inert and stable until it reaches the stratosphere, but the minute the chlorine loses whatever UV protection the flourine-carbon compund offered, it's own demise towards ionization has begun.
The sun will return the next day(inspite of what these latter day chicken littles tell you) to replenish whatever atmoshere the now vanquished CFC mangaged to crack.

I already stated the preference for pre 1970 chem books-no political bs.
Unless the laws of physics or thermodynamics changed during the 1970's, everything still reacts and decays at the same pre-1970 rate. Sodium is sodium, and oxygen is oxygen.
The only real material advances have been in the areas of polymers and borax/hydrogen generation. Which you won't find in a high school student textbooks these days.

There is a good reason why the southern tip of south america is a near desert. If there is any reason to suspect the ozone void is seasonal, then it would follow that any humans in the affected areas would be better served to take some shelter.
Still, I use UV in HVAC applications to sterilize the air. Unless you happen to have lived in puntes wherever, or be personally aquainted with one who is. I don't believe you. And I don't believe everything I read. I believe what I see, and I've seen how much just a single bandwidth of UV can literally destroy countless critters and compounds from a few seconds exposure.
The light will blast the mold and most scum off an evap coil/air box(take a peek at yours sometime) within 45 days.
In short if this ever actually occurred, an inhabited area getting hit with full spectrum UV.
The entire affected region would be wasteland within a week, uninhabitable in a month.

It is the height of human arrogance to even believe that we can parametrically affect the weather of our planet.

NASA has also reported what looks like a warming trend throughout the whole solar system: Mars(satellite imagery of water flows),
Neptune/Uranus(increased cloud activity),
and even Pluto's(increased cloud activity) atmosphere's have seemed to warm up during this past decade.

I suppose the US is responsible for that too.

BTW. China and India have no restrictions placed on their CFC use/production. I find it amusing that the same year an ozone void decrease is observed, the increased production of CFC and their related appliances in the aforementioned countries is ignored.
Those appliances need repair as well. And the way the HVAC techs used to service stuff here, is the way they are doing it there: venting straight R-12 onto an overheated compressor to unlock it's heat overload switch, venting R-12 and R-22 straight into the atmosphere for any depressurization of the line(leak, filter drier change, upgrade), and lastly burping(venting) the waste gas out of a spent R-12/22 cannister into the air.

We could quit using CFC's and HCFC's altogether and the combined release of China and India over the next decade will more than make up for it.

I don't care about China and India anyway, not as far cfc's go. It's a non-issue. I might as well worry about the sky falling.

I don't hate arabs, just wahabi fundamentalists.

In fact that's your words. I don't hate anybody.
It's too much energy expended towards things/people that I could care less about.

To be more accurate, I despise wahabi fundamentalist.
My desire for the extermination of all palestinians above the age of 4, and the scattering of the remaining children throughout the adoption agencies of the western alliance nations is purely pragmatic. The 5 year olds are largely corrupted and won't forget their parents being put down to easily. The 4 and under crowd can easily be co-opted by barney, sesame street, mickey mouse and the rest of america's legions. The memory of their psychotic parents having bred them to strap a bomb to them will quickly be forgotten in a blur of pokemon and ice cream.

I work HVAC and have a high degree of intrest in the subject. It allows my intrest in chemistry to have tangible real world applications that I(and others) visably appreciate.

plus you spell dumbass with z's instead of s's. i love that.

~james

You might want to reread the Consitition. Radar too.

The consititution details a number of different things, including the functioning of our governmental process, and also provides the information regarding the limitations that the govt has with respect to impacting the citizenry.

Just because something is not specifically probited in the constitution doesn't make it legal or allowable.

The Consititution, does not, for example, make any mention of murder ... or drug use. Those are both matters of common law and of the community standard

I know the constitution backwards and forwards. And anything NOT listed in the constitution is a right of the people or a power of the individual states. But since the 14th amendment limited states to onlly what the federal government can do, that means they're rights of the people.

When you murder someone you're breaking their constitutionally protected right to life. So the fed can get involved. But other law enforcement is the domain of the individual states like theft, etc. But drug use is an inalienable right and the states can't legally stop anyone from any activity that harms nobody but the people willingly involved in it. You can't stop people from eating fatty foods, doing drugs, drinking a lot, smoking, or doing any other peaceful activity (no matter how stupid) as long as their actions don't PHYSICALLY harm or endanger another person or their property. I can take all the drugs I want and the government (state or federal) can't say anything about it, but if I try to force someone else to take drugs, I'm harming others and have committed a crime.

I know the constitution better than nearly all people. I consider it to be the most perfect piece of writing ever devised by mankind. I know the constitution better than many supreme court justices who routinely make unconstitutional rulings. And later they try to use these rulings as a precedent for further illegal actions. They attempt to circumvent the constitution, "interpret" the constitution, ignore the constitution, etc. When none of these things is allowed in their job.

Originally posted by sycamore


Actually Wolf, this is the last amendment, added in 1992:

Amendment XXVII

No law, varying the compensation for the services of the Senators and Representatives, shall take effect, until an election of Representatives shall have intervened.

Thank you syc, I stand corrected. (Sit actually. Typing while standing up is a drag.)

My bad.

Originally posted by God


Dont worry Wolf, I can throw a bolt of lightning around corners, through flooring, ceilings, you name it.

I guess you've had a lot of practice ...

Wolf -
You are so right! Bad example on my part, but the NOW-nazis and choicers keep insisting over and over and over that it is a Constitutional Right according to the 4th Amendment so often that even I was getting brainwashed, my bad!

I forgot that it was a Judicial fiat that excluded the people...much like they are doing now by making law from the bench to prohibit free exercise of religions.

Thank you for snapping me out of that falsehood...
however, Radar is a lost cause.

warch, hermit22, jaguar, and perth -

Guys, guys, guys... I meant the cum swallower definition. But ya know, if you guys would put half the focus, determination, and energy into understanding the meaning of my message that you do in deciphering what I think of Radar...
you might just learn something important to your future freedom.

Jaguar -
The only things that DO shock you are truth, reality, and common sense! LOL...

Perth -
I used the term "Dumbazz", not my husband.
It has a meaning and was purposeful.
The 'zz' spelling indicates a bore, as in putting me to sleep. A BORING Dumbass!!!

Ah common sense, I was waiting for you to use that one, every idiots way of justifying their silly views, it's common sense! How could i not see that *sighs*.

My desire for the extermination of all palestinians above the age of 4, and the scattering of the remaining children throughout the adoption agencies of the western alliance nations is purely pragmatic. The 5 year olds are largely corrupted and won't forget their parents being put down to easily. The 4 and under crowd can easily be co-opted by barney, sesame street, mickey mouse and the rest of america's legions. The memory of their psychotic parents having bred them to strap a bomb to them will quickly be forgotten in a blur of pokemon and ice cream.

You are a really scary person.

It is the height of human arrogance to even believe that we can parametrically affect the weather of our planet.

Or that we could wipe out entire species, create deserts, destroy entire ecosystems or make entire tracts of land uninhabitable for thousands of years.

I'm sure to learn much about my future freedom by talking to a psychotic aircon installer who carries a bullet incase she needs to kill herself and wants to wipe out an entire population, probably to serve her own religious beliefs that she somehow denies having. Enough of your ham-fisted rubbish, join radar on the ignore list.

Originally posted by Cairo
ignorant mook, MORON, Shit-for-brains, Dumbazz!!!! IDIOT! stupid piece of crap! pompus turd, hypocrit, asswipe, pinko commie, pink boy! sorry excuse for a human being, and a complete waste of my time and breath, puke, processed shit that has been infested by maggots!

So you're a 40 year-old mother? Interesting... Do your kids sound like drunken sailors with tourrete's also?
Profanity is the crutch of inarticulate motherfuckers.

Originally posted by blowmeetheclown
Profanity is the crutch of inarticulate motherfuckers.

Great, now I have mate' in my sinus cavity.

Perth -
I used the term "Dumbazz", not my husband.
It has a meaning and was purposeful.
The 'zz' spelling indicates a bore, as in putting me to sleep. A BORING Dumbass!!!

ah. i wasnt so much concerned about who was using it, more that it was being used in the first place.

~james

...put half the focus,determination, and energy into understanding the meaning of my message that you do in deciphering what I think of Radar... you might just learn something important to your future freedom.

Hmm. Ya think?
Then for my benefit, could you just review that Palestinian solution one more time Ava?

ignorant mook, MORON, Shit-for-brains, Dumbazz!!!! IDIOT! stupid piece of crap! pompus turd, hypocrit, asswipe, pinko commie, pink boy! sorry excuse for a human being, and a complete waste of my time and breath, puke, processed shit that has been infested by maggots!

I missed that gem somehow. It's not very often you her quasi-christian middle aged mothers talking about cum swallowing i must agree. I'm glad theres a big pond between her trailer and myself.

Jaguar -
My husband IS a very scary person...to Socialists and DemocRATS!!! He's a true American Patriot who leans to the right of the Religious right, and proud to let you know that "Red, White, and Blue don't RUN!"

You barfed out,"psychotic aircon installer who carries a bullet in case she needs to kill herself and wants to wipe out an entire population, probably to serve her own religious beliefs that she somehow denies having."
First of all, your interpretation and comprehension skills are ATROCIOUS!!!! Not to mention made-up...
Chalk it up to Socialist Schooling! Good for a fiction or sci-fi novel though!

If you can't tell the differences between my husband's posts and mine...that says it all! I've no further use for you! NEXT!

Blowmee -
I'm 39...for 6 more months, I am 39!
A little friendly life advice...if you want to get the attention and on-going response from a woman, it's best NOT to add onto her age! In fact, subtracting from often gains you major kudos!
Otherwise, it's an insult and you will be ignored and alone for the rest of your life. K?

how hard would it be for him to have his own login? i think we should have a contest. come up with a nickname for cairos husband.

~james

Originally posted by perth
how hard would it be for him to have his own login? i think we should have a contest. come up with a nickname for cairos husband.

~james

Huh? I thought she and radar...

Originally posted by Griff
Huh? I thought she and radar...

i thought about that too. but i dont think so. but they would make a cute couple, no?

~james

Summation of Cairo posts:
Cairo: Is so!
Jag: Is not!
Cairo: Is so!
Hermit: Is not!
Cairo: Is so!
Radar: Is not!
Cairo: Is so!
Warch: Is not!
Cairo: Is so!
Griff: Is not!
Cairo: Is so!
Perth: Is not!

With a few “dumazzes” thrown in here and there.

Summation of Radar posts:
Radar: Is so!
Jag: Is not!
Radar: Is so!
Hermit: Is not!
Radar: Is so!
Cairo: Is not!
Radar: Is so!
Warch: Is not!
Radar: Is so!
Griff: Is not!
Radar: Is so!
Perth: Is not!

With a few “dick slaps” thrown in here and there.

(slang realizes he is opening the door to some abuse)

Psychotic?

As if. It is the only truly long term solution to the entire problem.
The region of syria transjordan was at differing times under the control of syria or jordan. Most recently, the owners of the region in question was the hashemite family of jordan. In effect, the entire region around jerusalem was jordanian territory.


My military and historical reference is THE ARAB-ISRAELI WARS, by CHAIM HERZOG, a good read with a highly useful bibliography.
It was during the 1948 birth of the nation of Israel that a multinational coalition of arab nations, using ex-SS and Nazi soldiers no less, attacked Israel with the intent of "driving them into the sea."
The arab leaders at the time told the palestinian natives to leave their homes so that the arab forces could better engage the jews without endangering fellow arabs. It was promised that once the jews were annihilated, they could return and take part in the pillaging and plundering of the conquered jewish areas.

A few more sensible arabs as well as the Israeli govt asked all inhabitants to just stay in their homes and not get involved. The Israeli govt wasn't going to take anything away from anyone.

The ultimate result?

The arab victories never materialized. Numerous arab confederacies sprung up: 1956, 1967, 1969, 1973- and all were overwhelmingly defeated.
Indeed the victories were the sort of lopsided victories straight out of the bible; the Israelites outnumbered by as many as 8:1, out gunned, out equipped....and yet their enemies were thrown into confusion and utterly crushed by Israel.
If the UN had stayed out of the 1956 conflict there is a high probability that none of this would be happening today.
In much the same way we don't have anymore militaristic japanese emperors giving us anymore trouble.
There wouldn't be any fanatic wahabi clerics causing trouble either, if Israel had been allowed to finish what other people started.

The arab nations are that punk kid whose older cousUN is always keeping them from having their ass cash a check that their mouth wrote.
The UN never interfered any of the times the arabs tried to invade and destroy Israel. No, they only decided to do something when it was plainly clear that the arab capitols were about to be captured.
And the UN can't have Israel dictating the terms of surrender for egypt, syria, lebanon, jordan, iraq, and anyone else stupid enough to bring a fight to Israel.

Syria or Jordan could have absorbed the refugees that they created from Israel.
If the refugees had just stayed home and minded their own business, they would have become Israeli citizens, with all the rights afforded Israeli citizens but none of the military obligations.
Instead they gambled their childrens future in hopes of the unjust gain from looting the jewish areas that they had coveted.
They got what they deserved....0

Now their fellow arabs hope that if they keep the palestinians in a screwed up enough situation long enough. Then hopefully they can obtain though international diplomacy what they couldn't obtain militarily; a foothold far enough into Israel to effect a military victory i.e. drive them into the sea.

My solution punishes the wicked parents at present who think nothing of throwing their children into the fires of Molech; it punishes their enablers as well.
I can be a bit flexible on the cut-off group for the age. You can never underestimate the ability of crass candy coated commercialism to influence kids.
What's to miss? Hunger, fear, murderous parents that are just waiting for you to be old enough to go join your "martyred" brothers and sisters in the field.
I'm sure there would be no shortages of volunteers for pokemon and icecream.

Their bloodline would merge and be absorbed into the nations of the western alliance. The blood sin of genocide would be avoided, all would be copasetic.

I hate no man.
I can only hate that which I have loved.
Which means that I hate an ex or two and that's about it.


My wife isn't an HVAC tech, can't say I have ever even seen one(a chick tech) in this field.

Originally posted by Cairo
Jaguar -
My husband IS a very scary person...to Socialists and DemocRATS!!! He's a true American Patriot who leans to the right of the Religious right, and proud to let you know that "Red, White, and Blue don't RUN!"

The corollary being that Democrats and Socialists aren't true American Patriots. Nice to see that the government I want to devote my life to is something I'm not truly patriotic about.

Originally posted by slang
Summation of Cairo posts:
Cairo: Is so!
Jag: Is not!
Cairo: Is so!

. . .

Summation of Radar posts:
Radar: Is so!
Jag: Is not!
Radar: Is so!
Hermit: Is not!
Radar: Is so!
. . . [ad nauseum]

Slang, thank you for saving me a lot of time reading the blithering hyperbole of these two unseemly idiots. As with advertising, the general rule appears to be that the louder and more frequently one yells, the less one really has to say. The corollary here being that the length of the post is inversely proportional to the value of reading it (so I'll be brief).

Sadly, if either of these windbags actually has anything useful to say, it gets lost in the vitriolic effluvium they spew so carelessly and ceaselessly. It would be so much more amusing if one of them would begin a tiresome rant with "Jane, you ignorant slut!"

When it comes to "Making an Ass of Yourself," these two wrote the book.

PS. The only post (by the ninny twins) worth reading was when Radar had the audacity to call HB a '[COLOR=orangered]cock smoker[/COLOR]' -- I'm so sorry I wasn't around to hear the guffaws that engendered!

Hey, that's two uses of the (quite lovely) word 'corollary' in consecutive posts! What a gifted group. I wonder what our average SAT scores were?

Originally posted by slang
Radar: Is so!
Perth: Is not!

hey! well, at least you gave me the last word. :)

~james

Originally posted by Cairo

I already stated the preference for pre 1970 chem books-no political bs.
Unless the laws of physics or thermodynamics changed during the 1970's, everything still reacts and decays at the same pre-1970 rate. Sodium is sodium, and oxygen is oxygen.
The only real material advances have been in the areas of polymers and borax/hydrogen generation. Which you won't find in a high school student textbooks these days.

Hmm. I admit that I hated chemistry in high school/ college, and so don't remember much of it, but I'm fairly certain that we studied some topics that were discovered in only the past 20 years or so. I, for one, would hate to see my kids denied a proper education because a few people couldn't accept the current consensus of the scientific community.

Unless you happen to have lived in puntes wherever, or be personally aquainted with one who is. I don't believe you. And I don't believe everything I read. I believe what I see,

At least you're honest. :)
I imagine that makes life rather difficult though.

It is the height of human arrogance to even believe that we can parametrically affect the weather of our planet.

It is the height of human stupidity to assume we have nothing to do with it. It's idiotic to assume the atmosphere is not effected by the chemicals we puke into it everyday.

I don't hate arabs, just wahabi fundamentalists.

In fact that's your words. I don't hate anybody.
It's too much energy expended towards things/people that I could care less about.

To be more accurate, I despise wahabi fundamentalist.
My desire for the extermination of all palestinians above the age of 4, and the scattering of the remaining children throughout the adoption agencies of the western alliance nations is purely pragmatic. The 5 year olds are largely corrupted and won't forget their parents being put down to easily. The 4 and under crowd can easily be co-opted by barney, sesame street, mickey mouse and the rest of america's legions. The memory of their psychotic parents having bred them to strap a bomb to them will quickly be forgotten in a blur of pokemon and ice cream.

Apparently you have no idea what a wahabi fundamentalist is; teaching history to air conditioners as you do.

My memory of Wahabbism is a little bit sketchy, but I'll give you a history lesson on what I do remember.

Wahabis, or salafis, were mostly a tribe in what is now Saudi Arabia that survived (in a large part) by attacking caravans in the desert. When the Saudi family was rising to power, they used the Wahabis as their warriors, and rewarded them with advisor positions in the government. Hence, the influence.

I have a feeling you think Palestinians are wahabbis by default. In fact, Hizbollah is Shi'ite (wahabbis are Sunni), and, ostensibly, the PLO, and later, the PA is a secular organization designed to liberate Palestine.

But you may not; I'm not going to assume anything.

I will take issue with your absolute hatred of Palestinians. The pragmatism you claim is really nothing but the manifestation of this set of emotions - spite, hatred, etc. Of course, suicide bombing is a distasteful act, but the fact that some Palestinians strap bombs on their bodies doesn't mean that the entire nation wants to - or wants to convince their children to do.

It's disgusting to see that you want to commit genocide on an entire culture; an entire set of people who, as far as I know, have not directly done you harm. There's no practicality in that, just extermination; the lowest valley of human existence. This view shows you to really be nothing more than a waste of human life. I really have no patience for this kind of talk, no matter if its coming from Pol Pot, Hussein, or some guy from Mississippi.

Ok, now allow me to seemingly reverse my position from my previous post.

I think everyone here has something interesting to say more than occasionally. I think its funny though how some people argue. If I pitch a case for something that I have said and the evidence or sources are rejected, the argument is over. That doesnt mean that anyone's opinion has changed but that the arguing about it is over. I'd rather have a good time goofing around than trying to prove a point to someone that will have absolutely no impact on me in the future.

Some people approach this in the opposite way that I do and will defend an idea till the end. They'll go back and forth and back and forth when it's fairly obvious that no progress is being made. That's fine, but I am not going to get in the middle of all that. Believe what you want, I'm not looking to convert the world to slang.

I do cringe when I see people post insulting comments though. Probably as much as many people cringe when they see some of the stupid crap I post.

Anyway, my solution to the hostility is humor. If I happen to make sport of someone I understand that they may be bitter and fire something back. That's understood. Just try to make the retort funny and even I will laugh, sometimes people get too uptight.

But then I'd be letting Cairo get the last word! :)

Originally posted by 99 44/100% pure
Hey, that's two uses of the (quite lovely) word 'corollary' in consecutive posts! What a gifted group. I wonder what our average SAT scores were?

I didn't take the SAT b/c it generally wasn't required at many midwestern schools (at least in 1993 and 1994). I did get a 30 out of 36 on the ACT though. Does that count? :)

Originally posted by sycamore
I did get a 30 out of 36 on the ACT though.

Is ACT a government program for midwestern poets?

Originally posted by Cairo

Indeed the victories were the sort of lopsided victories straight out of the bible; the Israelites outnumbered by as many as 8:1, out gunned, out equipped....and yet their

I don't want to get drawn into a discussion on I/P, if you really want to talk about it, I can e-mail you a paper I wrote about it that, I think, sums it up pretty well for how short it is. I really don't see a need to bore most of the Cellar with a discussion trying to show you what my beliefs are. I think it is the bull-headedness of many of the arguments in the conflict that have left it unresolved.

However, I will object to one point - the Israelis haven't exactly been outgunned for a long time. They have the second most modern military in the world, and the first one sure isn't a Muslim nation.

Originally posted by sycamore


I didn't take the SAT b/c it generally wasn't required at many midwestern schools (at least in 1993 and 1994). I did get a 30 out of 36 on the ACT though. Does that count? :)

I didn't know where I was going to go, so I took both. (Most people around here only took the SAT's.) I got a 27 on the ACT and a 1310 on the SAT. Not to toot my own horn or anything.

Originally posted by slang
Is ACT a government program for midwestern poets?

I wish...

The American College Test is similar to the SAT; the main differences being that you are not penalized for wrong answers on the ACT, and the scoring system is a bit different (1600 is tops on the SAT, 36 on the ACT). Almost every midwestern college used to accept it for admission, though I don't know how it is now. The average score used to be around 20, and you could start winning scholarships with a 25 for the most part.

I got a 30, which got me $2000 a year in scholarship money from the state of Missouri...whoohoo! And I'm sure the state would be proud of what I've done since getting that money and graduating. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by hermit22
I didn't know where I was going to go, so I took both. (Most people around here only took the SAT's.) I got a 27 on the ACT and a 1310 on the SAT. Not to toot my own horn or anything.

Nice work hermit!

I took the PSAT...if translated to a SAT score, the range would have been 920-1000. Ugh.

Originally posted by slang
Is ACT a government program for midwestern poets?

Heh! Good one!*

This would be much more interesting to discuss than what we've been enduring on this thread lately.

I did OK on the SATs and took an obscure exam called the ASAT (now obsolete, I believe). Can anyone guess what that was for?

*But if you really wanted to know; it's simply an alternative to the SAT, used by some midwestern and western states -- although more colleges/states allow both tests these days, I believe. Similar content and difficulty; different scoring range.

Cairo, it's incredibly uncool to have two people posting to the same account. How are we supposed to get to know you if we don't know who's who?

Lets post some suggestions for a login for him.(be polite)

How about "ozone man"? :D

For once, the Arkansan makes a good point. If your hubby wants to post, have him create his own account. We have plenty of couples here already, so it's not unprecedented.

I say! I do believe I've made good points on numerous occasions.

Ah ah ah! No trying to sound British now. Let's try that again...

Juju responds to syc by saying, "Well golly gee syc! I think I made me some good points 'round here a good two three four times now."

Better.

Originally posted by sycamore
For once, the Arkansan makes a good point.

Hey, you ever see Willy running around down there. Maybe chasing some college girls?

He gave a speech at my college during a statue dedication a couple of months ago, right before the mid-term elections. I think he was also supposed to be at a few other events, but the democratic candidate decided he didn't want anything to do with him.

There were so many people at the dedication that you couldn't even see him, though. It was very poorly placed between two buildings. Not a lot of room for a crowd.

Originally posted by sycamore
Juju responds to syc by saying, "Well golly gee syc! I think I made me some good points 'round here a good two three four times now."
Better.

I don't talk like that! Actually, I'm told I don't have much of an accent at all. Shall I record myself speaking to prove it? :)

My PSATs blew, but by SAT time I had gotten brighter and scored 1330.

(slang realizes he is opening the door to some abuse)

Why thankyou
*shovels in abuse*
No particular reason.
You have a point though. There *have* been some good discussion round here, (note discussions) and plenty of bad ones. I’ve had my fair share of the bad ones, and the good ones. There is a reason I’m still here after all. Recently though we've had a few new members who I think I can safely say the vast majority agree have posted little or nothing of value and have contributed to a fark.com like level of political discourse round here, which is a bit of a pity. On the upside two of them seem to share the same account which saves space on my ignore list, but on the downside we have reason to believe they may have procreated, another drop of pissing the gene pool, even if it is at the shallow end.

Originally posted by Undertoad
My PSATs blew, but by SAT time I had gotten brighter and scored 1330.

What the hell is it with the score ending in 30? Almost everyone I know had a score that ended in 30. 1230. 1330. Except Alan, this guy I knew from Science Research. He got a 1600 (and was later not accepted to Harvard).

Originally posted by Cairo
Jaguar -
My husband IS a very scary person...to Socialists and DemocRATS!!! He's a true American Patriot who leans to the right of the Religious right, and proud to let you know that "Red, White, and Blue don't RUN!"

Are you suggesting that there are no marathon runners who are patriots? I find such a notion to be completely absurd. I've known a great number of marathon runners (not counting my sprinter friends) who have spilled their blood for our country. Discounting the contribution of runners and dismissing them is extremely upsetting to me. I think the UROA (United Runners of America) deserve an apology.

Originally posted by Cairo
Blowmee -
I'm 39...for 6 more months, I am 39!
A little friendly life advice...if you want to get the attention and on-going response from a woman, it's best NOT to add onto her age! In fact, subtracting from often gains you major kudos!
Otherwise, it's an insult and you will be ignored and alone for the rest of your life. K?

What's six months compared to 39 years? It's like convincing Strom he has another year to go before he gets another free meal at Denny's.
L?

Originally posted by dave


What the hell is it with the score ending in 30? Almost everyone I know had a score that ended in 30. 1230. 1330. Except Alan, this guy I knew from Science Research. He got a 1600 (and was later not accepted to Harvard).

Musta been white without a relative who had graduated from there ...

Originally posted by blowmeetheclown
What's six months compared to 39 years? It's like convincing Strom he has another year to go before he gets another free meal at Denny's.
L?

Some women are just totally weirded out by the idea of their age ending in a zero. I've never understood this. I've cruised through 40, and am looking at 41 in (counts on fingers) 6 days ... no biggie.

My mother is SO obsessed by the thought of people finding out HER age that she lies about my and my sister's ages to keep people from guessing.

Yeah, I don't think so. We were from good ol' Carroll County. I doubt he was first in his family to go to college, but probably only second generation...

I see my thread has been successfully hi-JACKED!
Nice...should I change the title? What a wonderful welcome you all show, it's quite overwelming!

Hermi22 -
Of course "some topics" were discovered since the 70's. He never said otherwise, more of your comprehension handicap I suppose. He said the principles of the laws of physics or thermodynamics are no different than in the 70's. Try disputing what is said next time instead of making up things.

No, recent studies are leading in the direction of the fact that we have no influence on the ozone hole what-so-ever! What's "idiotic" is to ignore these studies for selfish agenda-driven reasons. What does the discovery of mammal bones from melting polar ice caps in Canada after thousands of years frozen solid tell you?
The chemicals we "puke" into the atmosphere doesn't affect the Earth, but they do affect us. However, restrictions are not the solution. California claims to be "The leading example to all other States on how to cut down pollution". But for all their expensive restrictions, in the last 3 years California has managed to champion into #1 most polluted city in the U.S....and #2 city,and #3 city, pushing Houston into 4th place from 1st.
California got more polluted under strict restrictions and Houston cut down pollution without restrictions.

http://www.lungusa.org/air2001/table3.html

Progress=Industry=Pollution.
Some Cities choose progress, and some Cities remain simple...where you live is up to you! But just remember as you are using and buying electricity, car, lawnmower, computer, hair products, soap, baby oil, make up, deodorant, cologne, clothes, lotions, c.d.'s, T.v.'s, cell phone, food, drink, etc...etc...your choice is progress!

You are the one who severely needs a History lesson(and Comprehension 101) Wahabism is the puritanical Muslim sect, Arab religious reformers and enforcers, if you will. Founded in Saudi and spread throughout the Middle East as the Puritan Islam. Are you saying that "Palestinians" are NOT Arab, Muslim, or Islamic?
I take issue and am appalled with you for even attempting to give a pass(the road to Hell is paved with good intensions) to a bunch of TERRORISTS who danced in the streets in masses upon hearing that their brethren succeeded in the massacre of 3,000 human lives on American soil! Shame on you for forgetting!!!! Plus the fact that in return for your forgiveness, they would sooner rip out your heart than look at you, or defend you! They sacrifice their children into crossfire for money! you have no clue what jihad is at all!

Ju ju -
You are right, it won't happen again.

Jaguar -
1. This is my thread, so piss off if you don't like this discussion!
2. "little to nothing of value"...? Debunking your uneducated little nothing posts are very valuable to readers out there who seek to broaden their knowledge. You are what the Bible describes as a Fool..."The lips of the righteous feed many; but fools die for want of wisdom." Look it up sometime.
3. Yeah, your ignor-ant list is getting longer...
running from the truth takes alot out of a guy.

Dave -
Hehehe...Run, as in away like a coward...if the UROA are all cowards who don't put America's best interest first, then yes, I am refering to them.

Blowmee -
This is your 2nd strike...one more...out!
Try comparing 39 to 40 instead. See the first number?...Bingo!

Seeing as a few of you tend to go "Hitler" on me, meaning trying to get rid of opposition, and are content to just wallow in their Utopian pipe dreams... I believe I've said all I need to say, so I'm done with this thread...hi-jack away!

Originally posted by Cairo
Blowmee -
This is your 2nd strike...one more...out!
Try comparing 39 to 40 instead. See the first number?...Bingo!

You're basically <font size=+2>40</font>, so just deal with it. It's less than 6 months away, so grow up, act like a big girl, and accept it as the meaningless number that it is.
Were you as sensitive when you hit 10? How about 20?

Blowmee, that wasn't bad, but I would have went with...[SIZE=8]40!!![/SIZE]

Originally posted by Cairo
I see my thread has been successfully hi-JACKED!
... I believe I've said all I need to say, so I'm done with this thread...hi-jack away!

Thank GODDESS.

BTW, when I turned 38 I started calling myself 40, just because the college kids I work around don't deal with numbers that aren't multiples of five. I could have been 60 for all they cared. By the time I turned 40, I barely noticed.

Happy birthday (in a few days), Wolf.

Originally posted by 99 44/100% pure

Thank GODDESS.

Far from it. Maybe I could have believed "some ranting web-aholic that knows only as much as Google will feed a person about any particular mundane topic five minutes before they cut-n-paste to a message board." But "goddess?" I don't think so.

Seems a lot of you put too much emphasis and stock into the results of one test...the Colleges don't.
The Colleges admit based on a student's entire academic past, they figure if you are an average student in High School who aces the SAT, you either tutored well for the test or you cheated. Either way, not exceptional ability. My niece graduated in the top 5% of her class, was a student council member for 3 years in her Charter/Magnet School, and was one of the few asked to give a speech at their Graduation Ceremonies. She didn't need to apply to Universities because they came to her, two Universities up north(Michigan and New York) courted her to visit their campuses by paying for her flight and hotel over a weekend. Kind of like athlete star treatment, only in academics...because those Universities know my niece would help make them look good on paper. Her best offer was from Rice University, so my niece is winding up her Freshman year at Rice...and the best part? She's still in Texas!
Yes, it is in the gene pool, my son at 7 years of age, plays the piano, plays chess,speaks english and spanish, takes tae kwon do, is almost 4th grade level in reading and math, and holds straight A's this semester. And my daughter at 2 years of age counts to 10 in english and spanish, knows all her colors, and has a vocabulary that rivals a 5 year old.
So jaguar likes to fantasize that my gene pool keeps company with his inferior lineage in the shallow end, but the reality is I procreate offspring who don't have to beg for admittance into College....and we wouldn't be caught dead swimming with FOOLS like you!

Yea, but can the 7 year old shoot?

$20 says the internet is like liquid courage for Cairo.

ok...how do you prove a winner of the bet?

Well, the only real way would be to actually know Cairo in person...

Who would want to know a worthless, stupid, right-wing, religious zealot, that knows nothing about the Constitution or America, has no personality to speak of, and thus far has shown no redeeming qualities as a human being like Cairo?

I certainly wouldn't. But if I did, I'd go to the special olympics.

Originally posted by Radar
Who would want to know a worthless, stupid, right-wing, religious zealot, that knows nothing about the Constitution or America, has no personality to speak of, and thus far has shown no redeeming qualities as a human being like Cairo?

I certainly wouldn't. But if I did, I'd go to the special olympics.

Oh come on Radar. We know you have a crush on her. Face reality, shes taken so just move on :)

You can be the most intelligent kid in the class, but if you don't have a decent personality, nobody listens...and nobody cares.

Originally posted by sycamore
You can be the most intelligent kid in the class, but if you don't have a decent personality, nobody listens...and nobody cares.

Any personal references attached to that statement?

Well, there are certainly a few Cellar folks that may wish to reflect upon my statement.

Originally posted by blowmeetheclown
Far from it. Maybe I could have believed "some ranting web-aholic that knows only as much as Google will feed a person about any particular mundane topic five minutes before they cut-n-paste to a message board." But "goddess?" I don't think so.

What's wrong with 99 saying "goddess"?

Originally posted by Cairo
who don't have to beg for admittance into College....and we wouldn't be caught dead swimming with FOOLS like you!

Not to be a jerk or anything, but my best friend got nearly failing grades throughout high school, and middle school, and went to the nearly lowest rated school in the state, and was still admitted to Penn State, without any form of begging whatsoever.

Colleges barely give a damn about your grades. They want your money.

Slang -
You asked,"Yea, but can the 7 year old shoot?"
LOL...Can he ever! On video games, his eye to hand coordination is exceptional!

sycamore -
I'll see your bet, and raise you $20...Hint: I'm a Redhead.

You stated,"...but if you don't have a decent personality, nobody listens...nobody cares."

Dear Syc -
They start to listen and care real fast when that "intelligent kid" becomes their boss!
Sincerely,
Bill Gates.

Besides, is this a beauty pagent or a debate forum?
Few here would ever be named Miss Congeniality either!...I nominate slang and wolf for the Mr. and Miss Titles.

Stress puppy -
Not true, grade point average is the only thing academic Colleges DO care about more than money. If they don't have the prestige to compete for a big draw of applicants...there will be no money. Their reputations are on the line to crank out important people.

Penn State has athletic prestige, not academics.
So, they care more about making the athletic grade, same with UT and Texas A&M here in Texas.

Prestige is what gets and keeps the money flowing.

Originally posted by wolf


What's wrong with 99 saying "goddess"?

The fact that Cairo is not a goddess.

I don't think she claimed (yet) that she was ... I believe she was thanking a third-party omniscient goddess.

Originally posted by Cairo
Besides, is this a beauty pagent or a debate forum?
Few here would ever be named Miss Congeniality either!...I nominate slang and wolf for the Mr. and Miss Titles.

1. Beauty pagent, definitely. Haven't seen a debate here in MONTHS ... ;)

2. in re: the nomination ... :thumb: cool. Thank you (*Wolf curtseys appreciatively*)

And by the way ... thanks for getting the "Miss" right ... "Ms." makes me damn crazy ... I thought it was a stupid construction when we first started having to use it in the 70s. I don't think that the change in linguistics has any major effect with respect to perception, respect, position, etc.

I'm a Miss until offered otherwise.

Wolf -
I hear ya!

Since there's no debate here, time for me to move on....too much spanking their monkey and not enough opposition intelligence for my liking. These posters don't even know proper thread starting and responding etiquette.

Oh, and Mr. blowmee has a severe comprehension disorder...must be contagious judging from others here who suffer from it as well. Don't drink the water.

Cairo, you just don't get it.

Loosen up a bit. Learn to have some fun.

You don't have to necessarily be open to changing your opinion, but listening to the others is a major part of what goes on here.

This isn't a debate club. It's a discussion board. Like it says up front ... this is a friendly little coffee shop with no coffee and no shop.

Treat it as such.

wolf, shutup!

If she's gonna go, let her go!

:)

Originally posted by Cairo
Since there's no debate here, time for me to move on....too much spanking their monkey and not enough opposition intelligence for my liking. These posters don't even know proper thread starting and responding etiquette.

You might be better off in one of the MSN or Yahoo chatrooms...the collective IQ of those places is about 23, so you should fit right in.

You might be better off in one of the MSN or Yahoo chatrooms...the collective IQ of those places is about 23, so you should fit right in.

I disagree. Cairo would be outclassed there too. Perhaps Cairo should seek someone of equal intellectual ability like a child with down syndrome.

Originally posted by Radar
I disagree. Cairo would be outclassed there too. Perhaps Cairo should seek someone of equal intellectual ability like a child with down syndrome.

But some of those kids are mild to borderline...60s and 70s on the IQ scale. If I remember my classifications correctly, 20-39 is severely retarded...that sounds like an MSN chat room to me.

Originally posted by Radar
Perhaps Cairo should seek someone of equal intellectual ability like a child with down syndrome.

[SIZE=3]HEY![/SIZE] My cousin happens to have down syndrome, and I beg to differ. He would have been much more polite, concise and well-organized in his discussion, although he, too, would not have known what he was talking about. This would have been a major improvement over the level of discourse we saw on this thread.

Also, since he cannot type (nor spell, nor even READ, for that matter), we would have been spared the lengthy FLAMES :rattat: and seething vitriol :rar: to which we were unhappily subjected. I am pleased that the Cairos have decided that this is the impoper forum for their 'educational' rants, and hope they can find a more suitable home elsewhere.

Is it just my perceptions, or does Cairo have the most overdeveloped sense of intellectual snobbery on the entire Internet? Or is it just the most overdeveloped and freely given sense of intellectual snobbery here in The Cellar? Reminds me of half of the MENSA people I've ever met.

Anyway, now that I've seen that I'm not going to be worthy enough to talk to Cairo, I know what I must do to improve both myself and my life...<the sound of scratching of the head and a lot of mouse clicks is heard>...Hmmm. Now, how exactly do I put someone in the 'ignore' file, anyway? I'm not smart enough to figure that out. Must be that shallow gene pool I crawled out of...whoops, 'scuse me. I mean 'that shallow gene pool out of which I crawled.'

And I thought trolls only lived under bridges. Sheesh.

Originally posted by Elspode
And I thought trolls only lived under bridges. Sheesh.

There are MANY bridges on the information superhighway.

Originally posted by wolf


There are MANY bridges on the information superhighway.

The tricky part is playing the part of one of the goats...

Lmao. Love your new user title Ep.

Do you have any firearms? You cant be a true hillbilly without at least one. (22 cal doesnt count)

(Elspode looks at the ground, scuffs his toe and sniffles)

I only have an old Marlin .22 rifle from KMart now. I used to have a really bitchin' vintage Savage 410 bolt action shotgun, but I traded it off a long, long time ago...I won't say what for, 'cause its embarassing. Also swapped my .22 auto pistol a long time back.

I've always had so many friends with guns that I never really bothered to own many, and as I've gotten older, I 've chosen to buy tons of expensive musical instruments instead. I miss shooting, though...used to do it a lot.

Do I have to get my teeth fixed and sell Ol' Bessie now?

Originally posted by Elspode

Do I have to get my teeth fixed and sell Ol' Bessie now?

Only if one of your instruments isnt an old moonshine jug :)

I think a broomstick and warshtub bass should qualify as well ... but of course I merely aspire to being rural.

(is there anyway I can be rural without bib-alls? I am willing to go the gingham dress route ...)

Originally posted by wolf
(is there anyway I can be rural without bib-alls? I am willing to go the gingham dress route ...)

I've heard some claim the only requirements are barefoot and pregnant... of course my wife is the primary income here so what would I know? I'm just a bib-overall wearin' mando-picker.

Originally posted by slang


Only if one of your instruments isnt an old moonshine jug :)

Well, no...but give me a week or so, and I'm pretty sure I can synthesize a jug, washboard and/or washtub bass on one of my synths.

I *can* be a high-tech hillbilly can't I? Oh...wait...nevermind. My favorite synth is 25 years old...guess that doesn't qualify as high-tech.

Originally posted by Cairo
Oh, and Mr. blowmee has a severe comprehension disorder...must be contagious judging from others here who suffer from it as well. Don't drink the water.

I'm glad someone finally put me in my place. I was on a never ending spiral into crap-laden diatribes over something that I know absolutely nothing about. ...wait, wait, wait. I'm sounding like Cairo now.

There's a mass suicide planned for this afternoon for all of those who have realized that we are not worthy to lick Cairo's calculus book...

Originally posted by blowmeetheclown
I'm glad someone finally put me in my place. I was on a never ending spiral into crap-laden diatribes over something that I know absolutely nothing about. ...wait, wait, wait. I'm sounding like Cairo now.

No you're not, because you are expressing self-awareness and remorse for annoying others and admitting that you don't know what you're talking about. The non-arrogance trifecta! Cairo is not capable of achieving that.

Originally posted by Elspode
There's a mass suicide planned for this afternoon for all of those who have realized that we are not worthy to lick Cairo's calculus book...

will it involve kool-aid? if so, count me in.

~james

will it involve kool-aid? if so, count me in.

Yes, but the dress code requires you wear Nike shoes and sweats.

And I'd be amazed if Cairo could spell calculus let along actually do any. I did several levels of engineering calculus in high school and college and it's not easy.

Originally posted by Radar
Yes, but the dress code requires you wear Nike shoes and sweats.

damn, no nikes. i dont suppose it would be acceptable to scribble a 'swoosh' onto my grubby hiking boots, would it?

~james

Fuck that...I only rock Adidas. And the Kool-Aid would have to be Berry Blue.

I took Calculus my senior year of high school and got a C. Took it again during freshman year of college and got an A. When I found out I would have to take Calc 2 and 3 for my major du jour (Chemistry), I quickly switched to Biology, and have only taken one pseudo-math class since (Psychological Statistics).

Whaddaya talkin about? Math kicks ass! After you get past calculus, nothing's left but the good stuff.

Originally posted by blowmeetheclown
Whaddaya talkin about? Math kicks ass! After you get past calculus, nothing's left but the good stuff.

I agree! Math *does* kick ass. Kicks my ass every time I try to do anything beyond simple multiplication...

Originally posted by Cairo

Penn State has athletic prestige, not academics.
So, they care more about making the athletic grade, same with UT and Texas A&M here in Texas.

Being a graduate of Pennsylvania State University, I must beg to differ with you on this one. Yes, PSU has a large athletic program, however, there are a number of non-athletic programs that are academically minded.

Granted, not everyone who goes to Penn State is MENSA material, and I'd agree that there are a handful of students that sat in my classes making me wonder how they got there. (I wondered that about myself when I was struggling with a few of my projects..)

However, Penn State is not a 'jock' school. Athletics are important, yes, but they are not the end all be all of the programs that are on numerous local campuses and at the State College campus as well.

I think it would be easier to stomach the comment that PSU is merely an athletic institution if Hershey Med wasn't around, if some fairly involved research were moved to ohhh let's say Pitt, or if there wasn't a move towards innovation and improvement on each campus.

Dagney