Atheists Unite
Not really, the poll is anon, but I gotta say, once I got over the general culture shock, being an atheist has been one of the hardest things about living here ...and I live in a gay-friendly college town. I really, really don't believe in any form of higher being/whatever, despite having superstitious tendancies (which I generally keep in check). But I find even the people closest to my way of thinking do the church thing as some form of insurance.....
this thing:
believe/there is a god -WIN
believe/there is no god -no loss
don't believe/there is a god -BIG LOSE
don't believe/there is no god -no victory
So I would be interested to know how many here truly don't believe. You won't be named, God/G-d/Allah won't know. ;)
Based on the thread title, I think you will end up with a skewered pole.
Funny.
I question things. Like: why is there even a question of taking into account or not taking into account something that there is no way of knowing, AND that I would never have thought of on my own/doesn't make sense to me. Why would I even question that? OF FUCKING COURSE I wouldn't.
Based on the thread title, I think you will end up with a skewered pole.
is why it's in nothingland despite being rly frkn srs
I went "not atheist" because I'm agnostic. I don't really believe that the possibility of a higher being is very high, but I'm not gonna deny there is a possibility. I think we (people) just have no way of truly knowing either way and those that claim to know are just kinda being egotistical.
Based on the thread title, I think you will end up with a skewered pole.
You mean skewered hebrew right?
[COLOR="LemonChiffon"]I'm going to Hell
Im going to Hell
I'm going to Hell[/COLOR]
Oh wait
[COLOR="LemonChiffon"]
No Nirvana for me at this time
No Nirvana for me at this time
No Nirvana for me at this time[/COLOR]
Total atheist here. No doubts, no questions, no hedging, no need.
Based on the thread title, I think you will end up with a skewered pole.
You think those who believe will ignore?
Total atheist here. No doubts, no questions, no hedging, no need.
No doubts, questions, hedging or need here either. I'm completely sure that I'm not sure.
I used to though. I used to say that I don't believe in man's god, but how on earth could I possible know that there isn't some kind of creator? Now I just don't care. If my mind cant go there, then whats the point.
I am polytheistic. I believe in lots and lots o' gods. As many as I can.
I don't mind religious people so long as they don't expect everyone else to take their make-believe game as seriously as they do.
... I find even the people closest to my way of thinking do the church thing as some form of insurance.....
Atheists can relate to agnostics and believers, without being hypocritical, by substituting both the past and the future for God while People form the present giving them free will. Atheists can devote time (i.e. do the church thing) to be sociable and reflect on past lessons related to future concerns; but, I wouldn't think very highly of people who did the church thing simply as some form of ritualistic insurance payment.
I don't mind religious people so long as they don't expect everyone else to take their make-believe game as seriously as they do.
Agree.
I don't judge them on what they believe but I am allowed an opinion on the way they behave. The road to hell is not paved with tolerance, no matter what the magic book says.
I used to though. I used to say that I don't believe in man's god, but how on earth could I possible know that there isn't some kind of creator? Now I just don't care. If my mind cant go there, then whats the point.
This.
Which I think is best described by agnostic?
I've been an atheist since I was 14 years old.
Initially I think I was probably an agnostic. I held out the notion that there might be a god of some sort.
Then I started reading science books and decided I am a total atheist. 100%
[eta] when I was working at the MYCCI doing literacy tutoring, I was surprised by how many of my work colleagues believed in God. I'd say probably 70% of the people working there held some kind of belief, either as an out and out Christian, or in a more tentative form.
Really surprised me. Not an environment I am used to. In my life generally, I have found that far fewer believe. Over here, we tend to see church and Jesus as something for kidlings and grannies.
We've talked about it before on here, but there is a definate imbalance between how much religion we are exposed to as children and how many of us then go on to be religious. Unlike the States, over here all state-funded schools are by law organised 'along broadly Christian principles' and, our kids are given Christian assemblies and take part in collective acts of worhsip. Many of our state schools are in fact 'Faith' schools. My primary school was nominally a Church of England school. But probably less than 25% of the intake were from church-going families. Just as many muslims and non-religious children attend the local Catholic school. In fact faith schools are obligated to take a certain amount of children not attached to the church. Everything about our state is intertwined with religion. Both the BBC, and ITV, the biggest independant broadcaster are obliged as part of their licence agreements to provide a certain amount of faith-based programming on radio and tv. Though religious organizations are not allowed, by law, to own and operate national terrestrial stations. Most people in Britain of my age will have spent at least some portion of their Sundays, growing up, watching religious programmes (probably as a way of avoiding homework for Monday) like Songs of Praise.
As a primary school child (kindergarten/elementary) the last thing we did every day before leaving school, was to pray as a class:
'Hands together,
Eyes shut tight
I pray the lord
keep me safe tonight'
Our education is steeped in it, even in schools that only pay lipservice to the legal requirements for christian prayer and gathering.
Yet, we are a very irreligious bunch.
Over in the States, your children are protected from religion in schools. State and church are not intertwined. Yet you are a far more religious society all in all.
This is very interesting. And I missed the skewered/skewed pole/poll last night (and I'm not entirely sure I get it), but do people think the way I worded the question will lead to biased results?
And yes, MTP, I wanted agnostic to go in the "not atheist" category. I wanted to know how many are totally and utterly sure there is no god.
Last night I learned my friend -who I was pretty sure was atheist- told me she had three weddings -one in front of a JP and then one in each of their respective churches. I commented/assumed it was to keep the relatives happy, but apparently no, it was so their kids could be baptized in the respective churches. Just in case. She says atheist, but to me that's agnostic. Not that there's anything wrong with being agnostic, it's just that I'm not.
She said just in case in regards to their souls or maybe just their social standing later on? I remember going to a few Sunday school sessions when I was very young yet my Mom was an atheist. She said she did it so that I wouldn't be socially ostracized. (This was back in the 60's)
I think it's the thread title rather than the actual poll that might skewer the results.
I call myself agnostic but it's not without a wince when I say the word. It seems so fence-sitting, to not even have conviction that you have no conviction. Also, I never believed that "believing just in case" was any kind of real belief at all.
I like to believe we are all energy. When we die, that energy goes back into the natural world, not into some spiritual realm. I may lean on my heritage when I say that 'nature' is our god.
I liked what foot says about believing in as many gods as he can. ;)
I went to a Catholic elementary school. I remember being a kid lying awake at night trying to process 'eternity' and not just eternity but our role in it. Like, if you lied to your mom you would burn in eternal hellfire. No, you are done. That is it. You effed up and now you will suffer for 'all of eternity.' When we were in Jr Hi we had to go to CCD classes. In HS, it was up to us. I didn't go back.
I'd love to believe there is some kind of magical paradise we get to go to, a place where our loved ones are. But hoping for that belief does not make me a believer.
However, for the purpose of this poll, I will have to say "not atheist."
Maybe the poll would be better if it offered more options:
Definately believe in God
Believe in some kind of higher spirit
Don't believe in God, but open to the idea/undecided
Definately believe there is no God
@ Infi: sounds to me like you are an agnostic atheist:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheists
Maybe you should have selected atheist after all :P
But the fence is already digging into my ass! :lol:
I think I defined the word agnostic too loosely. I had no idea there were branches of that, even.
I wish I could just make up my mind! I can't even buy any of the bumper stickers, I'm so wishy washy where these things are concerned!
Logically, if I consider how the belief in god(s) originated in the first place, there is just no way to continually carry on with it. Its a total shut down of the rational mind otherwise. Once its concluded that any (supernatural/supreme) god man has come up with is suspect, then any other thinking along those lines is too.
ETA: And yet, there was a time in my life that I was really into astrology and how it defines personalities...so go figure. We are always searching for definitions/explanations of some sort.
Logically, if I consider how the belief in a god(s) originated in the first place, there is just no way to continually carry on with it. Its a total shut down of the rational mind otherwise. Once its concluded that any (supernatural/supreme) god man has come up with is suspect, then any thinking along those lines is too.
Beautifully put.
One of the things I find frustrating about the God/No God debate is that anybody who is sure in their own mind that God does not exist is characterised as arrogant in that surety. How can we possibly know for sure that there is no God? Well, by the same token how can we possibly know for sure that there isn't a leprechaun at the end of the rainbow, or that unicorns don't exist?
If I say I am absolutely sure in my own mind that there is no such thing as Santa Claus, or the Toothfairy, nobody takes me to task for my arrogance.
My more cynical self (naw, not YOU, you say) thinks it was all (by all I mean religion in all its forms) conjured up so that no one ever had to think that when you're done, you're done. You're not a special entity. You are matter, and there isn't a higher matter existing within you that gets to go on to keep acting in the great play of life: Scene 2, Take 1.
And this is when my head blew up.
Nah. It all makes sense as a part of human development. If you look at the way faith and religions first began to manifest in things like cremation and stone tombs. Each generation builds on what went before. Religion makes perfect sense in that context.
The correlation between social power and religiosity then makes for some more cynical applications. But even those quite often produced socially useful strictures.
If I *think* about it, then I tend towards being atheist.
If I just follow my feelings, then I tend towards being agnostic. It *feels* right that there would be a God, but of course there is absolutely no evidence of one. That's why it's called faith.
I was raised Catholic, so I got a pretty serious indoctrination. It takes some effort to undo that. My Episcopalian wife is fairly religious, and out of deference to her, we go pretty regularly as a family to church almost every Sunday. My kids like church, and I think it's good for them. They both have a lot of responsibility and have a community there that supports them and genuinely cares about them. They are also being indoctrinated, but I think that's ok because the philosophy being taught is a good one overall.
During the service, there's a part where everyone recites what they believe in. Kind of like kids in school reciting the pledge of allegiance. I cringe during that part, because it sounds like such a load of BS. Some days I mumble along too. Some days I just keep my mouth shut.
At home, we say grace before eating dinner as a family. I also think this is good, because it reminds us that we are fortunate to have food. Some people don't. And we shouldn't take it for granted. Did God give us the food? Not really. I paid for it. But it's just pure dumb luck that I was born into my position in society in an educated family with good role models for being responsible. It's OK to acknowledge that there are some things that are just outside of our control and attribute that to God.
I think the danger there though, is that it is not much of a leap to thinking that we are where we are because that's where God wants us to be. A dangerous lie that sits at the heart of the so-called prosperity gospel.
Being grateful for God for putting food on our tables (in a roundabout way as you suggest) and placing us in a life that allows for happiness and prosperity, carries with it an assumption that God also put those unfortunate people who have less into their positions in life. If we are blessed, then they are cursed. Quite aside from the implied judgement on those who are not blessed, it also risks letting the rest of us (society and government) off the hook for the inequity in our society.
[eta] not suggesting that's what you are teaching your kids of course :p Nowt wrong with a little recognition of one's good fortune as a kid.
I don't define "God" as the bearded man in the sky, and many religious people I know don't either. If anything, my concept of a God is of a more scientific, concept-of-infinity, origin-of-energy-in-the-system kind of thing. God's not remotely human-like, and I don't think he's watching, doing, changing, or caring about us in the sense that we use those words. Kind of a "oneness of the whole" is the farthest I'll go, I guess. Maybe that's more in the realm of Zen, I don't know, I've never felt compelled to study any of it.
When couched in human terms like that, then I can definitely go along with a concept of 'god'...but I think there is a much better name for it. There's nothing wrong with having a 'collective group think'. We are social creatures first after all. But that is not a god in the way humans have created it.
ETA: Ummm, I think I may have distorted your meaning a bit, Clod.
[YOUTUBE]kkObvXY24tk[/YOUTUBE]
Based on the thread title, I think you will end up with a skewered pole.
This is very interesting. And I missed the skewered/skewed pole/poll last night (and I'm not entirely sure I get it), ...
I guess that that pun will be my cross to bear.
When couched in human terms like that, then I can definitely go along with a concept of 'god'...but I think there is a much better name for it. There's nothing wrong with having a 'collective group think'. We are social creatures first after all. But that is not a god in the way humans have created it.
ETA: Ummm, I think I may have distorted your meaning a bit, Clod.
I figured you were responding to glatt, not me. But I don't disagree with what you're saying, I'm in favor of most any convention that ultimately leads to people helping other people and building a healthy community, even if the stories justifying those conventions are a little silly when you start to examine them.
I guess that that pun will be my cross to bear.
Martyr
Posted before but seems appropriate here :p
[YOUTUBE]9Ndkz7HTjc8[/YOUTUBE]
@ Pico: was it the bad vicar one, or the Dawkins one, because I edited and changed the video?
Being grateful for God for putting food on our tables (in a roundabout way as you suggest) and placing us in a life that allows for happiness and prosperity, carries with it an assumption that God also put those unfortunate people who have less into their positions in life. If we are blessed, then they are cursed.
When there is some kind of disaster or tragedy and someone says, "god saved me", there's this implied, "[COLOR=Red]and he killed all those other losers[/COLOR]."
When there is some kind of disaster or tragedy and someone says, "god saved me", there's this implied, "[COLOR=Red]and he killed all those other losers[/COLOR]."
Or "you are so beautiful to me" implies "I don't care if everyone else thinks you're a butt ugly slag." :p:
@ Pico: was it the bad vicar one, or the Dawkins one, because I edited and changed the video?
You changed the Dawkins one? Ah man.
When there is some kind of disaster or tragedy and someone says, "god saved me", there's this implied, "[COLOR=Red]and he killed all those other losers[/COLOR]."
Exactly.
I'll re-post it here then :p
[YOUTUBE]Hv_9NQL73hI[/YOUTUBE]
If we are blessed, then they are cursed.
See, if I *think* about it, then I have to go in the atheist direction.
But I suppose the religious response to you could be that yes we are blessed, and it's our responsibility to help the less fortunate. We can't help them all, but we can help a little. And we do.
See, if I *think* about it, then I have to go in the atheist direction.
But I suppose the religious response to you could be that yes we are blessed, and it's our responsibility to help the less fortunate. We can't help them all, but we can help a little. And we do.
But,but... why hasn't god already blessed them too?
But,but... why hasn't god already blessed them too?
I don't know. It sure looks like he's a jerk though, doesn't it?
I've felt for a long time that religion is 98% social and 2% mental illness.
When there is some kind of disaster or tragedy and someone says, "god saved me", there's this implied, "[COLOR=Red]and he killed all those other losers[/COLOR]."
I like the Neville Brothers version of this song:
Oh my name it means nothing, and my age it means less.
For the country I come from, is called the Midwest.
I was taught and brought up, to the laws to abide.
That the land that I live in,has God on its side.
Oh the history books tell it,they tell it so well.
The Cavalries charged,and the Indians fell.
The cavalries charged,and the Indians died.
Oh The Country was young then, with God on its side.
The Spanish-American, War had its day.
And the civil war to us, was soon laid away.
And the names of the heroes, I was made to memorize.
With guns in their hands, and God on their side.
The First World War,it came and it went.
And the reason for fighting,I never did get.
But I learned to accept it, accept it with pride.
For you don't count the dead, when God's on your side.
In the nineteen-sixties,came the Vietnam war.
Can someone tell me, what we were fighting for?
So many young men died, so many mothers cried.
No I ask the question, was God on our side?
I learned to hate the russians, all through my whole life.
If another war comes, it's them must fight.
And to hate them and fear, to run and to hide.
And accept it all bravely, with God on my side.
Through many dark hours, I've been thinkin' bout' this.
That Jesus Christ was betrayed by a kiss.
But I can't think for you, you'll have to decide.
Whether Judas Iscariot had God on his side.
Now that I'm leaving, I'm weary as hell.
The confusion I"m feeling, ain't no tongue cna tell.
The words fill my head, and they fall to the floor.
That if God's on our side, he'll stop the next war.
Jesus loves me, this I know.
I am somewhere in between what IM and Clodfobble think.
I think that nature is as close to god as I am going to get. I think that there is an energy that causes life, that makes this natural world so beautiful. I think that must be god.
Then I become contrary. On one hand I do not think there is a god personally involved with my life, but If something good to me happens, I do not think I have been separated for special treatment, because thinking that feels weird, and I feel bad for those who are suffering, but all the same, I AM thankful. I wonder about this need to be thankful.
What is the difference between a Buddhist and everyone else?
Nothing
Maybe the poll would be better if it offered more options:
Definately believe in God
Believe in some kind of higher spirit
Don't believe in God, but open to the idea/undecided
Definately believe there is no God
no, that would have made it more wishy-washy. I wanted to know if I was alone in my absolute, positive, arrogant belief that there is no higher spirit whatsoever. I don't care how vague anyone's uncertainty is, I was interested in the certainty. :D
Me: I don't care if 'god' exists or not.
If 'god' exists then I can only (off the top of my head) conclude...
(1) It's 'all powerful' but (for some reason) chooses not to involve itself in the world (I see no evidence of divine intervention in the world...do you?).
Since 'god' is not involved: I'm on my own. Can't see a good reason to spend a lot of time thinking about, or seeking the attention of, a 'god' who sits back and does nothing but play voyeur (or, maybe, is off doing something else entirely).
(2) It's not 'all powerful' and -- for that reason -- can't do anything in the world.
Since 'god' is limited: I'm on my own. Can't see a good reason to spend a lot of time thinking about, or seeking the attention of, a 'god' who may want to intervene but is incapable.
(3) It's so alien in the way it thinks (in agenda, goal, purpose, etc.) its action in the world is incomprehensible and indistinguishable from natural occurrence.
Since 'god' is an alien: I'm on my own. Can't see a good reason to spend a lot of time thinking about, or seeking the attention of, a 'god' who is so far removed from me I can't hope to frame an entreaty it could even understand.
(4) It's a tricksy, manipulative, prick playing with the world like my nephew does a June bug.
Since 'god' is a fucker: I'm on my own. Only good reason to spend time thinking about 'god' (in this case) is to figure out how to fly under its radar.
Of course: there may be no 'god'...in which case: I'm on my own...*shrug*
#
"you are so beautiful to me" implies "I don't care if everyone else thinks you're a butt ugly slag."
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Is apathetic the same as agnostic? I think they go hand in hand, in your case. You don't know, you don't care.
You've covered the options except for maybe 'god' is a benevolent loving being who really only does these things to us for our good. Yeah, I don't see that either. ;)
I believe god(s) explained things that ancient humans did not understand. Thor makes thunder kind of thing. There are very few things in our obervable environment we can't answer. What were before we were born, what will we be after we die, what created matter/energy, what caused the big bang? gods provide answers to these questions. If that's what gods are, I won't and can't dispute it. But that's the most that god might be, so, in essence, I believe there is no god.
Monster you made the point I was going to make on your behalf.
I know how shy & retiring you can be.
You call a poll Atheists United because you want to know you're not alone.
I'm sometimes quite cross about the feeble flapping of "something out there but I don't need to do anything about it" or the assertion that the deceased "has gone to a better place" even if said person was a nasty piece of work. But this may be a hangover from my Catholic upbringing - I always felt that if people wanted the reassurance of God then they should bloody well work for it. An hour a week isn't too much set against eternity, surely?
I often wonder what true believers think God would have made of things like the Crusades, the annihilation of the Cathars, race riots, bombing of abortion clinics, families starving children because they had the devil in them. Maybe not spewing vitriol against children of God with different coloured skin might help open those pearly gates? I mean you'd think the God that issued Moses the commandment Thou Shalt Not Kill would be pretty cross. But then he wasn't averse to killing in those days either. Even Jesus blasted a fig tree for not havng fruit. I mean I get pretty cross when things are out of stock in Sainsbury's, but I try to refrain from blasting.
Mankind's current favourite Gods are desert dwellars. Vengeful, full of talk about blood and swords and overcoming. Full of miracles than have not happened since. They are xenophobic, clannish and misogynist.
Why did God make a woman? Wasn't he happy with asexual reproduction?
But then he made females for all the other sexual creatures to allow them to be bountiful.
Why wait to give his starring creation a partner? And why make her subservient when some other creatures have a matriarchal society? And why make man - in his image! - so horribly lustful that he is out of control if he glimpses hair, or ankles or face?
If the idea was to populate the earth, why not set some natural boundary? Because the countries that reproduce without any check are full of starving and dying and diseased and mutated babies.
Suffer the little children indeed...
[COLOR="White"](I do know that suffer also means allow and is used this way in the text quoted. I was raised Catholic after all)[/COLOR]
My mind spins.
In this thread I guess I am preaching to the unconverted :)
When God reads this you are going to be in big trouble!!!!
or....
you better hope he doesn't see this till after the rapture.
Like GAWD couldn't google for rapture knockers and atheists.
God is like most people over 70 - they are still using aol and dial-up.
It'll take about that long just for them to get online, let alone use that devil program google.
I'm prepared for the raptor.
I even changed my sig
As of 22 May, it goes back to my previous countdown - my birthday, Torchwood and pantomime. MY holy trinity.
To be honest, I don't know. I think that whatever position I take a stand on is probably at least 50% erroneous.
I like to think there is a 'higher power', possibly so I don't feel so insignificant and forgettable, comparatively speaking. Maybe I think evolution and human intelligence are too slow and stupid to create the wonder and beauty I see in the world.
I don't rule out God, multiple deities, fate, reincarnation, heaven, hell, separate planes of existence, or none of the above. Yeah, I'm flexible.
I think anyone who is absolutely positive of their belief in the unknowable is a little presumptuous.
I don't believe in atheism.
I don't believe in God either but I'm willing to consider any evidence and I'll certainly accept proof. I'm not sure (most) religious folk are ready to do the same the other way though.
God is like most people over 70 - they are still using aol and dial-up.
It'll take about that long just for them to get online, let alone use that devil program google.
I think that that god only reads Aramaic.
I don't define "God" as the bearded man in the sky, and many religious people I know don't either. If anything, my concept of a God is of a more scientific, concept-of-infinity, origin-of-energy-in-the-system kind of thing. God's not remotely human-like, and I don't think he's watching, doing, changing, or caring about us in the sense that we use those words. Kind of a "oneness of the whole" is the farthest I'll go, I guess.
This is pretty close to where I am on the subject.
I have two self-described atheistic daughters in Catholic school and an atheistic woman in my bed, so Imma cool with atheism. The girls are probably less sympathetic to religion, since they deal with it daily.
There's no personal god. If there was, he'd be the devil for allowing stuff like the holocaust, wars in general, and little innocent kids getting cancer, etc.etc.etc., ad nauseum.
On the other hand, I have difficulty with the thought that the universe is just "here." Something must have set the whole thing going. I can imagine god being just like a little kid who just set off a pop bottle rocket when he got the big bang going.
But if god started it all, who started god? I run into a dead end of logic either way.
I think we are all forms of energy who can trace our ancestry back to the beginning of the universe. And since energy is neither created or destroyed, we'll all continue to be around in one form or another.
I also like the Eight Fold Noble Path.
And I don't care what the rest of you are as long as you leave me out of it.
This is pretty close to where I am on the subject.
I have two self-described atheistic daughters in Catholic school and an atheistic woman in my bed, so Imma cool with atheism. The girls are probably less sympathetic to religion, since they deal with it daily.
The most emphatic anti-theists I know attended Catholic schools. I know one atheist who is sending her kids to a Catholic school just to make sure they come out atheists.
ETA: Be hilarious if it backfires.
I'm prepared for the raptor.
I even changed my sig
.
I don't really feel "wishy-washy" or uncertain. Which is what a lot of people equate agnosticism with, and which I'm sure some are. I am completely certain I don't know, and thats cool with me. I did question for a long time, but I think most of us did, especially if we were raised religiously. I now think that if there is a god or gods, that they aren't really involved, or if they are they can't be all powerful AND all good, so why bother? If god/gods exist, it really isn't going to change how I live my life, I'll still try to be the best person I can be. If I die and there is a god who judges me poorly for just not being certain in his existence when he wasn't very clear about himself obviously, then fuck him. I'd rather spend eternity in hell than with such an asswipe of a god.
I think anyone who is absolutely positive of their belief in the unknowable is a little presumptuous.
I am absolutely positive that there are no unicorns. Does that make me a little presumptuous?
I am absolutely positive that there are no unicorns. Does that make me a little presumptuous?
There may be none NOW, but that doesn't mean they were never in existence. History suggests that there were creatures or aberrations that were similar to the legendary unicorn, giving rise to their tale.
Why does it seem unbelievable that there was once a goat-type animal with one horn? Particularly since it was mentioned in natural history writings repeatedly?
Now Pegasus defies physics and biology, so I'd agree that it is probably purely legend. But again, I believe anything is possible. Our (human) limited sphere of knowledge is no where close to ALL of what there is to see and know.
I don't really feel "wishy-washy"
Not aimed at you. Aimed at those who call themselves Christian but do nothing about it in word or deed. People I have met IRL and not here.
There may be none NOW, but that doesn't mean they were never in existence. History suggests that there were creatures or aberrations that were similar to the legendary unicorn, giving rise to their tale.
Why does it seem unbelievable that there was once a goat-type animal with one horn? Particularly since it was mentioned in natural history writings repeatedly?
Now Pegasus defies physics and biology, so I'd agree that it is probably purely legend. But again, I believe anything is possible. Our (human) limited sphere of knowledge is no where close to ALL of what there is to see and know.
yes but that's a whole different thing. I didn't say i believed there was never a creature with the kinds of physical features that could have given rise to the myth of unicorns. I said I believe there are no unicorns. Never have been any. Might have been creatures that looked a little like what became the myth of unicorns, but magical horned horses with a penchant for virgin maids? i don't think so.
And as for 'anything is possible' No. Not so. Some things aren't possible.
Flamingos gave rise to the myth of the Phoenix.
Just saying.
I don't believe in flamingos.
From The Invention of Lying:
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Ricky Gervais on atheism
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What do I believe? I don't know. I'm so confused. I was raised in a strong Christian home. Over the years, I've found my faith slipping. The more I applied logic, the more I came to wonder if God wasn't an alien being. Stupid yeah. I've seen such evil in the world it has made me wonder if there is a God, but if there is pure evil then there must be pure good , ie God. At least that's how I see it.
In OIF III, I carried a pocket New Testament in my left breast shirt pocket everyday. I kept a crucifix hanging on my bunk that a Chaplain was handing out. I even had a picture of the Virgin Mary on a card a Polish soldier had given me. I kept this taped by my bunk. It gave me comfort during IDF (rocket and mortar attacks). I wouldn't run to a bunker if I was in my tent or CHU. I'd lay in my bunk and say a prayer. It should be noted I'm not Catholic. Somehow, I found the icons comforting
I came back and lost my faith totally. On my second tour, I didn't carry my bible. I did have a crucifix from the first deployment. I had some pictures of saints by my bunk that the Serb children had given me. I couldn't regain those feelings of God. When I returned back to the US and was in the Wounded Warrior Program at FT Gordon, I tried Messianic Judaism. It was interesting and the ritual was comforting, but I didn't really find God.
Next deployment, I tried but failed miserably. I even read the Koran. I couldn't find God in my heart. I know it isn't his fault. I am to blame. I tend to over rationalize Biblical events and it makes me doubt even more.
God, I miss you. I hope I can find you again. At least my children are strong Christians. I've done so many bad things in my life. I've broken every commadment (truly every one). I'm hoping I find my way home
Aimed at those who call themselves Christian but do nothing about it in word or deed.
Just what is it Christians are supposed to say/do? Since there are about
38,000 different Christian denominations, I suspect not all of them would agree with the duties you've determined are required.
Just what is it Christians are supposed to say/do? Since there are about 38,000 different Christian denominations, I suspect not all of them would agree with the duties you've determined are required.
As I said - it's not a fair expectation and is probably because I was raised to believe Christianity required some form of worship and adhering at least to the Ten Commandments and the teachings of Jesus.
The people I am speaking of pay no attention to organised religion until it means they get a chance to dress up - christenings, marriages, funerals. Then it becomes all important - it's not "proper" if it's not done in an old stone building. They celebrate Christmas rather than Easter (it's for the kiddies!) and can barely recall a Bible story, let alone the Ten Commandments.
My opinion is that if you genuinely claim to be a follower of Christ you should be conversant with the New Testament. Otherwise, where is your knowledge of Him and His teachings coming from? If yo9u don't actually know what happened on Good Friday and Easter Sunday, how can you say you are Christian?
I'm not saying people that chose not to worship formally should not be called Christians - I accept that as a skewed belief. I'm writing about people who label themselves in complete ignorance.
"I was born in England, therefore I am Church of England, therefore I am Christian"
The kind of person who confuses God with Santa. Long white beard, wish fulfillment, gets you out of trouble if you ask nicely, can be done deals with.
In my mind that is not Christianity. Of course YMMV.
The, I-am-because-my-parents-are-and-my-grandparents-were, crowd. Yes, they should know what Christ was teaching if they claim to be followers. I don't think they have to be able to quote chapter and verse of the New Testament, and certainly not the Old Testament, but should know the concepts.
Of course since the Bible was probably written, and certainly compiled/edited long after Jesus was dead, I have to take it on faith(no pun) that it really describes what Jesus was about.
I don't belong to any denomination, don't attend any church, but consider myself a Christian. Why? Because I've no reason to doubt Jesus proscribed the "Love thy neighbor as thy self" philosophy, and that resonates with me personally. I try, I often fail, but I keep trying.
I'm not saying there aren't people doing that better than I do, who describe themselves as atheists, agnostics, or some religion. I'm just saying that's my path, and Jesus (at least what I've been taught were his teachings), is the reason I'm on it.
I'm equally repulsed by people who beat me over the head with their religion, and people who do the same with their lack of religion. You know, Jehovah's Witnesses/Mormons, that ring the doorbell, zealots who will kill me for not believing like them, and atheists who mock, "Oh, you believe in an old man in the sky with a beard and robe". If you're one of them, fuck you.
While I'm on my soapbox... God. Yeah I'm comfortable with that concept. The heaven/hell, life after death, steam bath attendant with the video game controlling everything/everybody, not so much. All that stuff is derived from the various man made religions. I figure if God is omnipotent and controlling everything remotely, why would there be more than one religion? Well maybe two, one for 'em and one agin 'em, but that's it.
I think for anybody to be absolutely sure there is, or is not, a God, is pretty silly. To be absolutely sure of something you can't prove, and can't Google up anyone who can prove it, makes no sense.
Agnostics I can fully understand. They aren't hedging bets, they're saying they don't have faith, but admit they can't prove anything one way or the other. I do have faith, but can't prove anything one way or the other, either.
Unicorns? Why not, we're finding new critters all the time, that have been right under our noses all along. Now magical Unicorns, described in children's books and fables? That's pretty hard to take seriously, but it would explain Skittles.
and Candy Mountain
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I don't think being able to quote chapter and verse makes you a Christian by any stretch.
I really am just annoyed at people who call themselves Christians with absolutely no knowledge of His teachings at all. My example of not knowing what happened on Good Friday and Easter Sunday wasn't plucked out of the air - it came from a vox-pop I saw a couple of years ago. Not 100% reliable, but I worked with many people like that.
I disagree that people who feel absolutely sure in their beliefs are silly. To each their own. Just don't dehumanise or kill people because of it.
I'm willing to agree to disagree on this. The silly part, not the killing part.
I don't think they're silly, I just think they've closed their minds to any other possibility.
Kind of a predictable way to live...much more exciting to keep one's eye out for the unicorns :D
And I don't think that knowing one's Bible makes one a Christian, either. I know some decidedly un-Christian-like individuals who can spin your head, quoting chapter and verse.
Kind of a predictable way to live...much more exciting to keep one's eye out for the unicorns
Until you lose a kidney
I don't believe in flamingos.
It's not important that you believe in flamingos, only that flamingos believe in you.
I know bible from babel. I totally agree with Just Sundae....wait no I don't. but I want to. I am annoyed by christians who throw their christianity in my face and don't actually know what the fuck they're talking about.... But for many religions you are born into it and you don't need to be the most devout follower to say you are one. I'm cool with that. i only get heated up when people preach what i should practice. I love the jews and the sikhs and the muslims and the whatevers for not giving a fuck about people who aren't jewish etc..... think or do. I just get "mildy irritated" when people preach what they don't practice.
Like atheists who give christmas presents?
... Of course since the Bible was probably written, and certainly compiled/edited long after Jesus was dead, I have to take it on faith(no pun) that it really describes what Jesus was about. ...
... I think for anybody to be absolutely sure there is, or is not, a God, is pretty silly.
You pick and choose what you will accept on faith. You belong to a church alright, the church of ME, which is why:
I'm not saying there aren't people doing that better than I do, who describe themselves as atheists, agnostics, or some religion.
Monster, have you
kissed Hank's ass? because...
"If you kiss Hank's ass, He'll give you a million dollars; and if you don't, He'll kick the shit out of you."
Like atheists who give christmas presents?
har.. EVERYONE here gives "christmas" presents as far as I can tell. jews, Muslims, Sikhs, Christians, Atheists....
Like atheists who give christmas presents?
Atheists have the right to voluntarily celebrate Christmas as everyone else of any religion in the USA, the separation of Church and State notwithstanding, as a matter of national historical precedence which has been determined to NOT be a violation of that separation. That's why the US Supreme Court decided that the words "IN GOD WE TRUST" could remain on our currency. Sometimes heraldry trumps political correctness.
Christmas was stolen from my ancestors a couple of thousand years ago. It has absolutely nothing to do with Baby J.
I celebrate the Christian festivities because they are part of my culture.
I send Christmas cards without a religious message to people I care about. I send Easter cards without a Christian message to my family because it is expected and respectful.
I go to Bonfire Night celebrations too, that's not to say I celebrate the torture of Guy Fawkes or condone the suppression of the Catholic faith in England. 1606 is too long ago to worry about, I like fireworks!
But I didn't get married in a church.
If I had children I would not have had them baptised.
And if I have to attend a church ceremony (for family reasons) I do not take the Eucharist, or go up for a blessing.
I celebrate Christian festivals the same way I celebrate Diwali and Eid.
Good wishes to those who believe, now bring out the good food.
And finally... I think my opinion of people not knowing the Bible has been misinterpreted. In England, it is very rare to come across people who quote it chapter and verse. Even the Evangelicals don't tend to bring it into every day conversation. I was not saying that the better you know the Bible the better Christian you are. I was saying that not being able to recall a single Bible story (oh wait, the Nativity? No, that was a play wasn't it?) or teaching of Jesus, makes me suspect self-labelled Christians.
If I call myself a forklift truck driver, just because my Dad was, it doesn't make it so.
I've just realised I am a liar.
The cards I sent last year had a Christian theme, with the Star of Bethlemhem and a stable with a manger. I made them at school (which is a faith school) and bought mine because I couldn't resist the idea of my own printed Christmas card.
Mea maxima culpa.
So you really are a forklift driver or your dad wasn't really a forklift driver? I'm confused.
Hey I love Christmas. I love giving presents and eating Christmas dinner. I love the sound of Christmas carols. I love the sherry for sure.
I love the general Christmassy atmosphere. Wanna know why? Because like most people I know, I was raised in a broadly Christian country, attending broadly Christian schools and with a broad acceptance of the little baby Jebus. My initial love of history no doubt stems as much from watching biblical tales on TV at Easter as it did from any other source.
The trappings of Christmas are an instant connection to childhood magic.
Like Santa Claus and the fairy on the top of the Christmas tree.
I don't believe in ghosts either, but that doesn't mean I wasn't thrilled by The Grudge. Don't believe in witches and vampires but I fucking love True Blood.
What are you implying? That the baby Jesus is a vampire? Eat his body, drink his blood is a metaphor, I hope.
ps check your pm
I am the religious right. Just not the religion you were expecting.
ya'll are a bunch of heathens!!;)
I am a heathen. Elspode is a pagan. We are both iconoclasts.
Does that help to clarify?
... and the fairy on the top of the Christmas tree ...
How do you Brits find room for Graham Norton on the top of your tree? We 'Merkins have enough trouble making room for Kate Jackson, and she's rather small to begin with ...
You got my point though I hope.
Just as it's okay for assorted non-believers to follow religious traditions and rituals as they wish (I know I do) and still call themselves atheists, then it's just as fine for muslims, christians or whatever to ignore part of their religion and still call themselves muslims and christians.
I didn't mean to suggest otherwise.
I don't think that's what Sundae was saying at all.
That would be because I was responding to Monster! Perhaps I should use the quote thingy.
You pick and choose what you will accept on faith. You belong to a church alright, the church of ME, which is why:
The thing I accept on faith is that Jesus endorsed it, the path stands on it's own merit.
In England, it is very rare to come across people who quote it chapter and verse. Even the Evangelicals don't tend to bring it into every day conversation.
I think I got what you meant, them understanding the history and meaning behind the traditions. Especially the traditions that are primarily from the Roman Catholic and Episcopal denominations. I think those are the dominant Christian denominations over there, aren't they?
In the small town where I was drug up, the protestant church was built by a federation of people from a bunch of denominations, so the customs and rituals were an amalgamation. Going to churches of different denominations, I'd pick out bits and pieces that had been lifted from them.
Over here, it's been my experience that most people don't bring religion into their daily social interactions at all, other than when somebody sneezes. If they discuss religion at all, keep it pretty general in concepts and preferences. The people that quote chapter and verse the most, are usually the most intolerant, often racist, usually sexist & homophobic, closed minded motherfuckers on earth. YMMV.
If someone starts quoting Bible verses, they're selling something, most often their religion... available on an easy payment plan, publications extra. If they are quoting Old Testament verses, they're usually trying to justify some abhorrent social behavior(see racist-sexist-homophobic above), win people over to a political candidate, or to reinforce a position that has no logical or reasonable defense. It's amazing how a sentence or two, can be "interpreted" to cover things which could not even have been imagined, by the people that wrote them.
That was a perfect summary, Bruce.
The more I applied logic, the more I came to wonder if God wasn't an alien being. Stupid yeah.
Not stupid. Absolutely plausible. Or said this way: Things we interpret as actions by god may have been actions by an alien (or time traveller).
If someone starts quoting Bible verses, they're selling something, most often their religion... available on an easy payment plan, publications extra. If they are quoting Old Testament verses, they're usually trying to justify some abhorrent social behavior(see racist-sexist-homophobic above), win people over to a political candidate, or to reinforce a position that has no logical or reasonable defense. It's amazing how a sentence or two, can be "interpreted" to cover things which could not even have been imagined, by the people that wrote them.
I really tried to be a believer, so I actually read the bible. What I learned turned me off god and religion. Now, I can refute the people you describe using their own, and only, source of justification. But I don't charge or ask for donations.
That was a perfect summary, Bruce.
I agree completely
I don't believe in atheism.
I don't believe in God either
Then you're an atheist. That's the only requirement. Atheism is a lack of belief, not a belief. Individual atheists can have beliefs
in various (non-diety) things, and
about dieties (like them not existing), but all that is required to be an atheist is to not believe in a diety.
There are beliefs that you have to be an atheist to hold, but there are no beliefs that you have to hold to be an atheist.
There are beliefs that you have to be an atheist to hold, but there are no beliefs that you have to hold to be an atheist.
I don't believe ... you, I believe.
wait... what?
I believe...
I'll have another cookie.
Atheism is to theism as gentile is to Jewish. You don't need to have any beliefs to be a gentile; you just have to not be Jewish.
