Hand wringing about Jill leaving.
Here is where you can wring your hands over Jill's leaving. Breast beating and brow furrowing is in another thread.
"If only I hadn't been so sarcastic..."
Someone who has been absent for a long time packed up and left after a short visit??? OMGoes to get another bowl of cereal...
But I want to beat my breasts here!
Well, since I was the one who made the fuss about it:
I am a little pissed she's gone, but to be honest i was more pissed that yet another seemingly reasonable person has been driven away by aggression and personal attacks when attempting to have a political discussion.
But hey, if you want to characterise that as handwringing over the loss of one member you go right ahead.
Maybe, maybe not. Really not the point though.
Last time she left for how long? a year or two? Just long enough to forget what drove her off the last time (getting into a firefight with a wingnut in the politics forum) and then she came back and was given a stark reminder.
Well done us.
OFFS she's clearly an attention ho -moreso than me, even. Would you have mourned so if she had dressed to the right rather than the left?
(getting into a firefight with a wingnut in the politics forum)
It takes two to tango. It should have been apparent from the first half-dozen posts that she wasn't going to convince either UG or Merc of anything. No harm if she wants to continue past that point, that's her call, but it's kind of silly to cry foul and leave when you only got what you insisted upon receiving.
OFFS she's clearly an attention ho -moreso than me, even. Would you have mourned so if she had dressed to the right rather than the left?
If she'd dressed to the right and been treated the way she's been treated in the politics forum, yes.
I really don't see she was an attention whore. She clearly enjoys having a political debate. It's just a shame that isn't really an option in here.
I also like having a political debate but I rarely do so these days.
@ Clod: Jill recognised her role with Merc and fessed up to it. Then got shat on somewhat more mildly, but still as far as i can see for no real reason, by someone else. Less of an attack, but on the back of the previous one, I can see why she just thought oh fuck it. Y'know, it just isn't worth it.
A sentiment I can fully relate to.
Just to be absolutely clear: though I like Jill, I don't really know her that well. I'm not oh so upset that she isn't here. I'm annoyed at the way this keeps happening. She isn't the first and she won't be the last. Reasonable people attempting to have a robust political discussion with people of varying opinions end up being subjected to personal attacks and trying to argue rationally with people who are being irrational.
That doesn't make for a fun debate.
I have lots to say about politics, but I won't say it here. I've observed that there is no possibility whatsoever of a reasonable political debate on these forums.
Right. So, if your main gig is politics and you come to the Cellar expecting to be able to engage in that subject with other people who are interested in politics, you can expect to be insulted, derided and disrespected.
Little surprise then that we keep losing political animals.
It is not healthy.
And as for the left-right split: I don't know why it is, because there are rational and reasonable people of all stripes in the cellar, but the ones that tend to get driven away by this shit do tend to be the left-leaning ones. The most vehement and consistent nastiness seems to come primarily from the right. That's not to say everyone on the right is doing this, but there is a definate imbalance as far as i can see.
No word of a lie, I have had friends express an interest in joining the Cellar and I have warned them away. Because they are into politics and are on the left. So, I know what they'll be faced with when they attempt to engage in a political discussion.
And if they do end up being driven away well, as has bene pointed out in another thread: their fault for being too political right?
Couldn't possibly be that we as a community simply cannot be trusted to engage with people of differing political viewpoints in an adult and respectful manner.
Dana I love ya, you commie tart but if you think right or left matter in the politics forum anymore you need a serious rethink. Merc and UG are really not that different than spexx and whoever his latest little puppy in crime happens to be at the time. You just happen to agree more often than not with the view from the left so don't notice it. Political discussion in the cellar has been dead for a long time. Now it is just a statement and restatement of positions followed by escalated name calling poopslinging.
I don't get why we're supposed to feel like hand-wringing wussies if we express that we think Jill got run out on a proverbial rail. Sure, she could have done things differently. So could you. And you. And me. I can still think we might have lost a unique voice.
Don't worry, I'm not going anywhere. I'm here to annoy you for as many years as I'm alive. ;)
Actually I notice it with Spexx as well. And with Tw.
I am not for one moment suggesting that there is no nastiness from leftwing posters, or that the right has a monopoly on this shit. But the majority of people who've been 'driven away' by the nasty political fights over the last year or so have been left-leaning.
You're right though, that it isn't just a matter of left v right. This is about our cultural approach to politics in our community. I am equally disturbed by leftwing posters launching personal attacks and treating their opponents with contempt as I am when it happens the other way around. I see more of it from the right than from the left.
Now, you can suggest that this is because I am leftwing and therefore sympathise with the leftwing posters' views: but I do not sympathise with personal attacks and disrespect, and I think I am rational and open enough to spot the difference between a well-crafted response and a shitty attack regardless of which end of the political spectrum it is coming from. And, in that light, i tell you I see more of that from the right against the left than the other way around.
Of course that might just be a matter of numbers. There seem to be more right-leaning, or centre-right posters overall than left-leaning or centre left posters in this community. Consequently if a similar proportion of each are dickheads, then there will be an imbalance to the right.
[eta] Just for clarity: I raised the left-right aspect of this because Monster asked if I'd have responded the same way had Jill been on the other side of the divide. My view overall is that this is a wider problem than just a left-right spat. This is about how we do politics in the Celllar. It's about people coming here expecting rational discussion and instead facing unpleasant attacks.
I second everything that Dana has said in this thread.
I cross borders quite a bit but am probably center-right. I consider UG to be a cartoon, but Merc is a mean bastard here. IM is much meaner than Spexx, but the left crowd tends to dog-pack, rotating because Merc/UG are always looking for a fight and normal people tire of being like that. I feel bad that we can't discuss politics here anymore, but I did my best to rid us of Merc before to no avail. So we will have a watered down cellar... er leaky basement er something.
I second everything that Dana has said in this thread.
I second this second of everything Dana said.
We all take our turn at it.
I second this second of everything Dana said.
I second this second of the first second.
I don't get why we're supposed to feel like hand-wringing wussies if we express that we think Jill got run out on a proverbial rail. Sure, she could have done things differently. So could you. And you. And me. I can still think we might have lost a unique voice.
And this too.
Anyone else for sloppy seconds?
I'm sorry to see her go too. Political discussion is always perilous both online and in person.
Just to be absolutely clear: though I like Jill, I don't really know her that well. I'm not oh so upset that she isn't here. I'm annoyed at the way this keeps happening. She isn't the first and she won't be the last. Reasonable people attempting to have a robust political discussion with people of varying opinions end up being subjected to personal attacks and trying to argue rationally with people who are being irrational.
That doesn't make for a fun debate.
I have lots to say about politics, but I won't say it here. I've observed that there is no possibility whatsoever of a reasonable political debate on these forums.
there isn't much debate going on in the Politics forum. And that's a goddamn shame. It should be renamed "Argument Clinic" or "Shouting".
I see debate as a contest of ideas, using words and ears and eyes. Also, for competitve debates where the only idea is to win we have the kinds of debaters for that but no impartial judges. but that kind of debating is to my mind NOT what the Politics forum is for, certainly not what I want in the politics forum. I want to be informed, perhaps to be persuaded. I want to learn. And that means an open mind, but there isn't much of that on display. Very little express acknowledgment that the "other side" has much valid to offer. It seems such an admission is tantamount to a sign of weakness--anathema to the current tone.
It's not just in the cellar. I see and hear it all over the place. It's just as sad there too, and just as useless.
Among my high priorities, what is good for the country ranks right up there. And I *wish* the discussions were 1 -- among people who shared such priorities, and 2 -- that there would be more listening and openmindedness as to the method by which we reach our putatively shared goals.
It's sad and frustrating.
Precisely, Biggie;
I wonder whether there is some way a better debate can actually be facilitated. Maybe with an official debate moderator, who only lets posts through if they contain no attack.
Proposal of debate agreed to beforehand
Posts limited to 500 words
Onlookers can flag a
fallacious argument
A debater can tap out and be replaced by another of his/her choosing
What about if you just use the 'report abuse' feature', and if someone gets 3 or 5 or 7 or whatever number of posts for the same post, they get a 24 hour ban?
I think this is a good idea because for one thing, it means it's not left up to just one person to decide if the post is bad or not, but also, if the discussion is that heated, perhaps the poster could benefit from a short break to collect their thoughts.
That's not really how the feature works though. That leaves it to moderators, which is not really what the mods are for.
Do you think it's worth asking them what they think about the idea? Or even other members?
I've been thinking about this idea for a while, so it's not just off the top of my head.
I wonder how well this thread would've gone over if I had started it and named it, oh, let's say, Hand Wringing over Merc. Or Ali. Or whomever.
Bet there'd be a lot of slapping me down for having the audacity to even THINK of starting such a thread.
LOL...I don't think too many would have slapped you down if you named it after me.
There may be some mileage in moderated debate threads? I personally never go into the politics forum. Initially this was because I don't understand US politics, more recently it's been because I hear that it's a slanging match rather than a debating forum.
I'd be willing to try being a politics thread moderator (for one thread) if that would help to try an experiment?
The problem with moderation is that sometimes slanging matches are not a bad thing. It sort of depends on the participants and levels of assumed or implied permissions between them. Where those match and are in sync (regardless of political persuasion) a good slanging match can be good fun. Where those do not match and are not in sync, then again regardless of political persuasion, a slanging match is likely to cause genuine offence.
Lookout and I are about as opposed to each other politically as it is possible to be, yet we can happily throw shit at each other within the bounds of our assumed permissions without it being a problem. Most of the time it's in jest. Very occasionally we have had heated disagreement. Classicman and I similarly are able to have very heated arguments, and actually piss each other off from time to time, or overstep those accepted parameters and cause mild offence, without that turning into anything really ugly.
Most of the time, with Merc, he and I are acting within parameters we have organically agreed upon. The bounds of those parameters are somewhat wider than with other posters. I am happy to have a slanging match within those paremeters and we do so quite often. What's unpleasant to witness, or participate in, is a slanging match that disregards mutually agreed parameters, or is operating where no such thing yet exists. This last in relation particularly to newcomers.
This is one of the problems really. So much of this stuff is context dependant.
I don't discuss politics here because my political views often have an emotional basis. That makes for poor debate. I wonder if some of the other participants might want to question whether they have the same problem.
Theoretically, we're all grown ups here, and should be willing to accept the consequences of posting without expecting that it all be roses and puppies when you do ... Dana, unless your friends are exceedingly fragile, there's no need to warn them off.
Theoretically, we're all grown ups here, and should be willing to accept the consequences of posting without expecting that it all be roses and puppies when you do ... Dana, unless your friends are exceedingly fragile, there's no need to warn them off.
This.
It's not that they're fragile. They'd just get so annoyed that they wouldn't want to come back.
And it's not about expecting things to be sunshine and roses either. It's about expecting a modicum of respect and being able to discuss things without it always finishing in the deep end.
Nobody is forcing them to come, to stay, or to leave. Every adult person makes their own decisions. [COLOR="White"]. . .[/COLOR] NO EXCEPTIONS.
Oh well. There we go. Problem solved.
Of course, if people who are trying to debate a point can't take a personal attack it must be their problem.
The problem with that, Wolf, is that there are certain people who try to dominate the discussions by posting obsessively and who attempt to intimidate the posters with personal attacks and incessant mockery.
Why bother? Honestly.
Subjectivity is a condition we cannot avoid. Human interactions cannot be put into a flowchart of "if this, then that" because the question of "if" can never be resolved. What is fragile? What is sunshine and roses? What is respect--how is it displayed, and how is it violated? What is an attack? When does a debate become an argument?
These are rhetorical questions. Whatever answer you have in your head is applicable only to yourself and yourself alone. You can't impose these things. Only by rule of written law can a collective will be imposed.
So the question is: do we want to live in a constrained society, bound by rigid roles deemed "acceptable" by the noisiest complainers, or do we want to grow the fuck up, shut the fuck up, and forget about this crybaby bullshit?
Can a person be "thread banned" or "subforum banned" for not playing nicely? That might allow a person to remain is the cellar at large but unable to post vitriol in the politics thread. Maybe that would allow those of us who are able to debate respectfully a chance to once more participate in politics thread.
red and yellow cards! That's what we need.
And a 'sin bin'
Can a person be "thread banned" or "subforum banned" for not playing nicely? That might allow a person to remain is the cellar at large but unable to post vitriol in the politics thread. Maybe that would allow those of us who are able to debate respectfully a chance to once more participate in politics thread.
And this will work because the banned person cannot make a new thread in an unbanned part of the forum? I think when someone is being an ass we should just call them on it and only respond with the word
twat to everything they post. :)
And this will work because the banned person cannot make a new thread in an unbanned part of the forum? I think when someone is being an ass we should just call them on it and only respond with the word twat to everything they post. :)
This!
Good idea if possible.
Dear Flint,
Shut the fuck up. You are one moran whose opinion does not matter.
xoxoxo,
Griff
You're right, Griff. My opinion equally doesn't matter. Your opinion equally doesn't matter. Ideally, we should operate as adults making independant decisions, and taking personal responsibility. Pointing fingers, blaming others, making excuses, and tattle-taling: these are things that children get in trouble for. Adults have learned not to do these things. Let's be adults.
There is no such thing as society.
Interesting idea. That right there is a thread starter in itself.
You're right, Griff. My opinion equally doesn't matter. Your opinion equally doesn't matter. Ideally, we should operate as adults making independant decisions, and taking personal responsibility. Pointing fingers, blaming others, making excuses, and tattle-taling: these are things that children get in trouble for. Adults have learned not to do these things. Let's be adults.
blah blah fucking blah
The Cellar is more than just a random collection of strangers. It is a community. We have, and continue to evolve accordingly. Unusually for an internet community we are very lightly moderated. Something I am very glad is the case. Because we do not have a clear ruleset and moderator enforcement, we self-manage as a community for the most part. Again, this is something I am glad of.
There is nothing wrong with (and I would argue that it is actually beneficial and possibly even necessary that we do) occasionally taking a step back and looking at what culture we have evolved into. Since we have few structural mechanisms of control, informal mechanisms would seem a logical alternative.
This whole thing started (I think) when I posted in the 'scorching your groove' thread about Jill leaving. And when I said in another thread that I was millimetres away from leaving myself. Not because Jill had left, but because of what I perceived as a recurring problem. Basically, I got a little glum at a particular aspect of Cellar culture and expressed my frustration.
Now, I could just shut the fuck up and never comment about this sort of thing again. But to do that I'd have to make myself care a little less.
I love the cellar. I'm very proud of it most of the time. I identify with it as part of who I am, it is a community I feel a part of. I absolutely reserve the right to give a shit about who and what we are.
blah blah fucking blah
Yes! What I said is nonsense! That's the spirit!
Who am I supposed to agree with?
Dana, I'm glad you care. Caring is the #1 ingredient that, if missing, is irreplacable. My personal take on whathever the "situation" is that we are fretting over is that I don't know what it is and I don't care what it is. I don't trouble myself over that kind of thing.
What I do know is that I randomly responded to a random post in a random thread, not knowing or caring what forum it was in or what the perceived problems were in that forum, and the next thing I know I've got a freaking strikeforce of enraged vigilantes coming at me with torches and pitchforks.
Let me say again: I do not give a shit about your petty squabbles and complaints about whatever forum you feel has whatever problem. I don't know about it, and I don't care about it.
But if you decide to target your righteous anger against ME, then I guarantee that you can FUCK. RIGHT. OFF.
Me, now that I'm bored with the pointless parody. Flint is fine with political threads never enlightening anyone, but I'm not.
Fair point about your random response.
But fuck you on 'my' petty squabbles
*smiles*
I clearly need to work on my sarcasm. I'm shocked to discover sincerity in this thread.
What I do know is that I randomly responded to a random post in a random thread, not knowing or caring what forum it was in or what the perceived problems were in that forum, and the next thing I know I've got a freaking strikeforce of enraged vigalantes coming at me with torches and pitchforks.
You were a casualty of what we are talking about.
I clearly need to work on my sarcasm. I'm shocked to discover sincerity in this thread.
*laughs*
Start another. Third time lucky?
Fair point about your random response.
But fuck you on 'my' petty squabbles
*smiles*
Well, you're one of the chief complainers, right? Either you are or you aren't--which is it?
Flint: Were you not just complaining? Why so sensitive?
Why so sensitive? I am responding to direct personal attacks and accusations issued by name against me.
Much like the so-called debate in politics, which you deride others for getting upset about.
From the thread where I attacked you Flint:
@ Flint: that post is so arrogant. You've basically accused Jill of having no mind of her own and only being interested because she's been manipulated by the press. And not only arrogant but aggressive too.
Personally, I think she made some interesting points. Her arguments stack up more firmly than the counter-argument (to me) in this thread: I have not been bombarded by news on this issue. I am basing my response entirely on what's in this thread. I have seen not one single news report about this issue. It is entirely possible to form this opinion without having it shoved fully formed into your brain by journalists. Try tackling the actual issue instead of making personal attacks.
And from this thread:
@ Clod: Jill recognised her role with Merc and fessed up to it. Then got shat on somewhat more mildly, but still as far as i can see for no real reason, by someone else. Less of an attack, but on the back of the previous one, I can see why she just thought oh fuck it. Y'know, it just isn't worth it.
A sentiment I can fully relate to.
Are those the personal attacks and accusations to which you are referring?
lol...every forum seems to have it's little drama
Proceed with whatever your point is.
Much like the so-called debate in politics, which you deride others for getting upset about.
Whether "the so-called debate in politics" has the qualities you say it has is neither known about nor cared about by me; therefore I can form no such analogues as you propose. I'll take your word for it, but to my knowledge it has nothing to do with me.
The attack on you would not have happened if the political debate had been fact-based rather than personal. That is what we're trying to address.
Precisely, Biggie;
I wonder whether there is some way a better debate can actually be facilitated. Maybe with an official debate moderator, who only lets posts through if they contain no attack.
Proposal of debate agreed to beforehand
Posts limited to 500 words
Onlookers can flag a fallacious argument
A debater can tap out and be replaced by another of his/her choosing
good morning UT
I have an idea I'd like to offer.
I was running out of gas last night when I made the post to which you replied, and now I see there's been much activity since then. I like much of what has been said, especially by DanaC and by Griff. Flint's remark that we're all adults here, by choice, so quit crying has some resonance for me too. But I'd like to point out that another of Flint's comments strikes at the heart of how the conversations in the Politics thread (and other threads too) get derailed. He said something to the effect of "I was just making a random comment in a random thread, why all the torches and pitchforks?".
Exactly.
For me, I was participating a NON random discussion (same thread though) and (in this case) Flint bursts in with his randomness. Chaos ensued. The discussion was derailed. It kind of reminds me of ... a streaker racing across the playfield. The game stops. Or Bill Gates getting a pie in the face at a conference. Utterly irrelevant to the content of the conference, I can't even remember what he talked about, but I remember that he got hit with the pie. These kinds of interruptions detract from my experience of the conversation/debate. I wish I didn't have to see them.
Exactly.
My suggestion is this: I wish there were a way to not have to see INDIVIDUAL comments in a thread. A collapse button would be ideal for this. I envision that a post would default to expanded, but could be toggled with a click. This wouldn't prevent me from seeing the post in the first place, but I could streamline the flow of the conversation to my own satisfaction.
I see lots of advantages to this hypothetical solution.
[LIST=1]
[*]infinitely customizable, for each dwellar and each thread.
[*]It's reversible.
[*]it's better (for this purpose, at least) than the "ignore poster" function, since it allows more granular control
[*]this puts minimum restrictions on the poster's "freedom of speach"
[*]this puts minimum burden on some moderator to control the "debate"
[/LIST]
I don't think it is possible for me to control other people's words and actions and thoughts. Even a moderator can not do that--the can only remove offenses. I don't wish to control others' words, I just want to be able to minimize the distraction they present for me.
I see potential disadvantages too:
[LIST=1]
[*]the conversations could be choppy (choppier, since random acts of non-sequitor-ocity are already a clear and present (and growing) danger)
[*]there's a risk that I'd see/hear a different story/flow than what others see/hear. But this is actually what I desire. I already don't like how it's hashed up--I'm trying to clarify things for myself.
[/LIST]
Basically, some of these discussions are in sore NEED OF EDITING. This would let me do that editing. Lots of what I write and think and say gets edited. Some of what I express is lightly edited if at all. There's a time and place for both. But up until now, I couldn't think of a way to achieve this editing for those conversations that require it. In the past, I've suggested (and done) that the crap posts simply be ingnored. That's actually a lot easier said than done. This would make it a bit easier to do.
The analogy of a bar has long been used to describe the interactions here in the cellar, and it's an apt one. This function would be like being able to mute (ooo mute, maybe the function can be called "mute post") a voice that *I* find disruptive to my attention/experience while hanging out at "the bar". I could just click that button and I could return my attention to the thing I want to focus on. The interrupter could continue to babble on, and might (or might not) have something constructive to contribute later, we'll both see. We do this all the time when we're trying to have a conversation, we turn down the tv, or we close the door behind us, or we move away from the noise.
... wow... that's a lot of talk... your thoughts sir? Your thoughts, friends?
There's a display mode for you (upper right, Display Modes, Threaded Mode), but it doesn't really work because Quick Reply doesn't count in Threading.
Massive alteration of vBulletin is not going to happen.
How do you know whether or not you want to see someone's comments or not, until you have seen them?
Doesn't the ignore feature take care of this problem?
Whether "the so-called debate in politics" has the qualities you say it has is neither known about nor cared about by me; therefore I can form no such analogues as you propose. I'll take your word for it, but to my knowledge it has nothing to do with me.
So. You are, by your own admission relatively ignorant of what occurs in the politics forum and therefore much of the context of the problem we're discussing. Yet, you feel perfectly well-qualified to tell those of us who are familiar with that context and have concerns, that said concerns are petty and groundless.
You are upset/annoyed by my 'attack' on you, which is primarily about your post and not you as a person, yet you think people who've been subjected to highly personal attacks in the politics forum should just grow up and be less sensitive.
If those two quotes above are enough to upset you, then it is probably a very good thing that you don't follow the politics forum more closely.
[eta] For the record, as soon as you said you'd unwittingly wandered into that discussion and made a random comment to a random poster, I accepted that. And throughout I have been clear that yours was not the post that caused the problems but rather the 'straw that broke the camel's back'. In other words a relatively innocuous and light example of something bigger that came just after the real problem.
How do you know whether or not you want to see someone's comments or not, until you have seen them?
Doesn't the ignore feature take care of this problem?
That is where DanaC's yellow/red card theory could be more effective. The poster gets temporarily locked out of politics after so many fouls so the reader can be reasonably assured that there will be a discussion.
There's a display mode for you (upper right, Display Modes, Threaded Mode), but it doesn't really work because Quick Reply doesn't count in Threading.
Massive alteration of vBulletin is not going to happen.
accent on "wish"
I did not intentionally suggest a massive rewrite of vBulletin.
How do you know whether or not you want to see someone's comments or not, until you have seen them?
Doesn't the ignore feature take care of this problem?
Hi Nirvana--
In my fantasy rewrite of vBulletin, I was thinking I could see the post to begin with. This is ... you got to start with it showing or not... I pick showing. I could see the post, and if it was crap, just collapse it so the visual flow of the conversation didn't include that one.
the Ignore feature as it is now works great, but for a given poster *everywhere* on the cellar. When I'm UP TO HERE!!!11 with a given poster, I put them on ignore and my blood pressure is reduced. This functionality doesn't apply the way I want it... I just want selective comments removed from the conversation, not whole dwellars.
There is in fact a "red card yellow card" system built in to vBulletin, and a user getting infractions can be automatically penalized into a different user group or banned entirely.
The problem is that such a system changes, and complicates, the dynamic of the forum.
Many forums offer reward systems, in the forum of up or down votes. People at such places are not honestly themselves, but are competing to win ups or downs. Circlejerks reinforce themselves with upvotes. Hive minds develop. Some are ostracized with downvotes.
Imagine the internal politics that could develop. Imagine a Cellar Red Card Bannination Crew, working in consort. We'd have discussions breaking down into which user got close to making a heretical statement, and what penance they should offer to make things right. It'd be uglier than it is now.
How do you, UT, handle unwanted and irrelevant intrusions into your attention now, in real life?
There is in fact a "red card yellow card" system built in to vBulletin, and a user getting infractions can be automatically penalized into a different user group or banned entirely.
The problem is that such a system changes, and complicates, the dynamic of the forum.
Many forums offer reward systems, in the forum of up or down votes. People at such places are not honestly themselves, but are competing to win ups or downs. Circlejerks reinforce themselves with upvotes. Hive minds develop. Some are ostracized with downvotes.
Imagine the internal politics that could develop. Imagine a Cellar Red Card Bannination Crew, working in consort. We'd have discussions breaking down into which user got close to making a heretical statement, and what penance they should offer to make things right. It'd be uglier than it is now.
Good points. What if the call were only made by a mod?
I don't think there are enough mods to manage it.
hahahahaha. sad, but true. sad, but funny, and true.
Actually very funny
I don't think anything structural needs to change in the cellar. The beauty of the cellar is that it is a self policing community. I've been to other communities that are heavily moderated and regulated and they suck. Personally I don't like some of the changes I've seen in the culture of the cellar in the last few years. I have the ability to either whine about it (which I have), try to be a catalyst for what I'd like to see (I'm not so good at that), or leave (which I've done for months at a time). That's self regulation and it works. While I have zero respect for a couple of dwellars I dont' want some system in place where we vote their comments in or out of the threads. They're free to be assholes and I'm free to respond how I see fit.
For me I think the cellar is just a sympton of a much larger problem in our society. This is a reflection of discourse in the world now. Ideas are really not that important anymore except as a banner to wave pretentiously in support of our political/social identity. The right believes they are superior to the left because they're "more patriotic and american", "stand for values", and are obviously much more intelligent. The left believes they are superior to the right "because they care about the middle class", "believe in compassion", and are obviously much more intelligent.
It seems most people refuse to consider that two people can look at the exact same data and come to drastically different conclusions not because one is brilliant, kind, and pretty while the other is stupid, evil, and smelly. We have all experienced life differently and because of that have different priorities and different views of what the ideal society would be.
Of course those we have voted to rule our lives benefit by keeping us divided so they stir the pot with rhetoric to keep us battling right v left, rich v poor, black v white, red state v blue state. No one wins except the ruling class.
Lookout, sorry, but I disagree. I think that is an easy way out of addressing the problem.
My disagreement is the manner in which people "discuss" their differences.
I have had brief, but interesting discussions with Flint and Classicman in which we disagreed, but we were respectful.
That is not the case with one member here. One who, in my experience, is always the first to start with the name-calling (pussy, asshole, loser,...), who arrogantly refuses to provide facts to support his position when requested but instead demands that others prove him wrong and who broadly categorizes anything he doesnt agree with as biased or propaganda (including facts like text of laws).
If you think the discussions could be better, my suggestion is to start with the biggest deterrent.
I get that he is a "valued" member of the community. If the community wants to skirt around it and doesnt want to address, then so be it.
If that is the case, its no big deal. Those who want a more civil and respectful discussion of political issues will find it elsewhere.
added:
And, yes, I am guilty of responding in less than the most respectful manners at times, but I would urge you to look at the discussions in the totality.
That is not the case with one member here. One who, in my experience, is always the first to start with the name-calling (pussy, asshole, loser,...), who arrogantly refuses to provide facts to support his position when requested but instead demands that others prove him wrong and who broadly categorizes anything he doesnt agree with as biased or propaganda (including facts like text of laws).
Yebbut, to be fair, zengum was high on crack when he posted that stuff. And his hobo just died.
Lookout, sorry, but I disagree. I think that is an easy way out of addressing the problem.
My disagreement is the manner in which people "discuss" their differences.
I have had brief, but interesting discussions with Flint and Classicman in which we disagreed, but we were respectful.
That is not the case with one member here. One who, in my experience, is always the first to start with the name-calling (pussy, asshole, loser,...), who arrogantly refuses to provide facts to support his position when requested but instead demands that others prove him wrong and who broadly categorizes anything he doesnt agree with as biased or propaganda (including facts like text of laws).
If you think the discussions could be better, my suggestion is to start with the biggest deterrent.
I get that he is a "valued" member of the community. If the community wants to skirt around it and doesnt want to address, then so be it.
If that is the case, its no big deal. Those who want a more civil and respectful discussion of political issues will find it elsewhere.
added:
And, yes, I am guilty of responding in less than the most respectful manners at times, but I would urge you to look at the discussions in the totality.
UG's not a "valued member of the community" to me. I generally skip his posts except when I'm in a sarcastic, short tempered mood. You could post ANYTHING to UG and he'd either ignore it or else call you some unpleasant name.
I think next time I see one of his posts, I am going to reply by copying some segment of the Constitution purely as a scientific experiment. I wonder if he'll tell me to "put my crack pipe down."
I disagree with UT about forums that allow members to give rep points. The system seems to work pretty well on another forum I'm on. Of course that place is huge, and sometimes the number of rep points can help gauge a poster's reliability. But that forum is heavily moderated. In fact, I bet almost everyone from the Cellar would get banned from it in a few days! I'm always watching my step there.
Part of the reason I like this place is because I can type the word "fuck" and not have it censored. But part of the reason I don't like the politics forum is that vicious personal attacks are allowed - the language used there is far worse than "fuck."
UG's not a "valued member of the community" to me. I generally skip his posts except when I'm in a sarcastic, short tempered mood. You could post ANYTHING to UG and he'd either ignore it or else call you some unpleasant name.
I think next time I see one of his posts, I am going to reply by copying some segment of the Constitution purely as a scientific experiment. I wonder if he'll tell me to "put my crack pipe down."
I disagree with UT about forums that allow members to give rep points. The system seems to work pretty well on another forum I'm on. Of course that place is huge, and sometimes the number of rep points can help gauge a poster's reliability. But that forum is heavily moderated. In fact, I bet almost everyone from the Cellar would get banned from it in a few days! I'm always watching my step there.
Part of the reason I like this place is because I can type the word "fuck" and not have it censored. But part of the reason I don't like the politics forum is that vicious personal attacks are allowed - the language used there is far worse than "fuck."
I've never had any interactions with UG, but I do get a good laugh out of his posts.
I guess I wasnt clear enough. In my experience, Mercenary is the primary instigator and the one who has two sets of rules, one for himself and one for those who challenge his opinions with their own.
That is not the case with one member here.
Then police yourself. If that one member is offering you no value then ignore them. You can either do that by just not reading the posts or by putting them on ignore status.
And SIA, I'm glad you enjoy that other forum but if UT were to start something along those lines in the cellar I don't think it would work. Actually the cellar would probably become a much friendlier place but it would be at the cost of a large portion of long term dwellars.
Then police yourself. If that one member is offering you no value then ignore them. You can either do that by just not reading the posts or by putting them on ignore status.
And SIA, I'm glad you enjoy that other forum but if UT were to start something along those lines in the cellar I don't think it would work. Actually the cellar would probably become a much friendlier place but it would be at the cost of a large portion of long term dwellars.
Sure, I could ignore him.
But, looking at the bigger picture, I dont think that will make the political forum any better or more informative.
Rather than police myself, why not address the larger issue? Reading through this thread, I am not the only one who identified this problem person.
Go ahead and move to get him banned. Even if the mods did ban him it wouldn't change the level of discourse on political issues because while merc's posting habits are so over the top he's really just an amplified example of what passes as political debate here. At the end of the day I don't really care if he stays or goes I just think it is silly to pretend he's the source of all the problems. If you really think he's a troll and adds no value then IGNORE him. If a troll is genuinely ignored then they aren't getting what they want and will either change or go away on their own.
It's kind of like the kindergartener saying "teacher teacher I don't like the way billy plays with the blocks. He won't do it the way I want him to." Fuck it. Don't play with him. Either he'll get bored having no friends to play with and change or he'll continue to be ignored.
I didnt suggest banning anyone. Nor did I suggest he is the source of all the problems. But to address the tone and manner of discussion, IMO, you should start with the worst offender.
As to ignoring him, while I dont pretend to know it all, when I see blatantly false information posted (as opposed to opinion), I think the community is better served by challenging the post with facts rather than letting false information be perpetuated.
I've had my say. The community will do as it wishes.
We've had TW posting blatantly false information for years. This is nothing new.
Edit: To be clear, I'm not defending merc's style. I generally don't read what he has written. My point in all this is that you're an adult, if what he types on the internet bothers you so much then ignore it because you already know you aren't going to have a rational give and take on these contentious issues.
Exactly lookout.
If you don't like the way the discussion is going, change it yourself by only speaking to people you find reasonable. Simple as that. Your experience here is what you make of it, no one else dictates it.
Because of the nature of the lefty pack here, I don't know that simply ignoring is doable. Merc will broadcast spam across the board and someone will respond.
What about this? Anytime someone has a problem with mercs behavior s/he posts Morocco for verbal abuse:f130: and South Vietnam for falsehoods :f179:
Don't reply in kind and don't engage in conversation unless he is on his meds.
I don't think anything structural needs to change in the cellar. The beauty of the cellar is that it is a self policing community. I've been to other communities that are heavily moderated and regulated and they suck. Personally I don't like some of the changes I've seen in the culture of the cellar in the last few years. I have the ability to either whine about it (which I have), try to be a catalyst for what I'd like to see (I'm not so good at that), or leave (which I've done for months at a time). That's self regulation and it works. While I have zero respect for a couple of dwellars I dont' want some system in place where we vote their comments in or out of the threads. They're free to be assholes and I'm free to respond how I see fit.
For me I think the cellar is just a sympton of a much larger problem in our society. This is a reflection of discourse in the world now. Ideas are really not that important anymore except as a banner to wave pretentiously in support of our political/social identity. The right believes they are superior to the left because they're "more patriotic and american", "stand for values", and are obviously much more intelligent. The left believes they are superior to the right "because they care about the middle class", "believe in compassion", and are obviously much more intelligent.
It seems most people refuse to consider that two people can look at the exact same data and come to drastically different conclusions not because one is brilliant, kind, and pretty while the other is stupid, evil, and smelly. We have all experienced life differently and because of that have different priorities and different views of what the ideal society would be.
Of course those we have voted to rule our lives benefit by keeping us divided so they stir the pot with rhetoric to keep us battling right v left, rich v poor, black v white, red state v blue state. No one wins except the ruling class.
Goddamn but you're sexy when you're right :p
I agree with this. I don't particularly want to see increased moderation in the Cellar.
I do think it's useful now and then for us to air this stuff though. If for no other reason than it lets people who've perhaps been under the impression that we're all cool with the shitslinging know that actually they're not alone and the problem has a wider recognition.
Protect us from ourselves. Would there be a troll problem if everyone just completely ignored trolls? No there wouldn't, but people can't seem to controll (haha) themselves.
On second thought, I don't like the idea of thought police and have to agree with Bullitt and Lookout, who I don't really find sexy, but that's just me.
Because of the nature of the lefty pack here, I don't know that simply ignoring is doable. Merc will broadcast spam across the board and someone will respond.
Are you talking about the fact that the majority of dwellars are left of center or are you talking about particular posting habits?
No way are the majority of posters left of centre.
My own reading of dwellars is that most are a combination of left of centre and right of centre views. A lot of dwellars are, for instance, socially progressive and economically conservative.
Your center may be a bit different than mine. It seems most brits think CNN is a hard right wing propaganda machine. I may be exaggerating that a bit, but you get the point.
100% Agree:
It's kind of like the kindergartener saying "teacher teacher I don't like the way billy plays with the blocks. He won't do it the way I want him to." Fuck it. Don't play with him. Either he'll get bored having no friends to play with and change or he'll continue to be ignored.
I am bewildered by the level of resistance towards concepts that my pre-kindergarten age children are aware of, and capable of practicing. We do not need more rules or moderation here. We do not want more rules or moderation here. If you are in favor of a "rules or moderation" solution, then you have the choice of either growing up and learning how adults interact, or fucking leaving the Cellar.
If you leave, don't feel like you need to make an announcement. Just go away and find someplace that you like.
100% Agree:
I am bewildered by the level of resistance towards concepts that my pre-kindergarten age children are aware of, and capable of practicing. We do not need more rules or moderation here. We do not want more rules or moderation here. If you are in favor of a "rules or moderation" solution, then you have the choice of either growing up and learning how adults interact, or fucking leaving the Cellar.
If you leave, don't feel like you need to make an announcement. Just go away and find someplace that you like.
The only people who have suggested moderation in one form or another, in this thread, are Undertoad, Aliantha, Limey, Footfootfoot, Griff and myself, though mine was a joke suggestion.
So, all these people are just childish idiots who need to grow the fuck up or leave the cellar?
Or was it aimed mainly at me? In which case it doesn't make a lot of sense as, my flippant comment about red and yellow cards aside, I have spent much of this thread arguing against increased moderation.
You have just characterised a bunch of people as childish because they have a different view of how the board might work to the one you hold. Whilst steadfastly refusing to engage with the issue at hand.
[eta] Twat.
It's kind of like the kindergartener saying "teacher teacher I don't like the way billy plays with the blocks. He won't do it the way I want him to." Fuck it. Don't play with him. Either he'll get bored having no friends to play with and change or he'll continue to be ignored.
Alternatively the rest of the kindergarteners simply abandon the idea of playing with the blocks altogether.
Welcome to self policing.
... childish idiots ...
I never said "idiots."
I did say "weak-minded fools" and "sloppy thinkers" but I never said "idiots."
Starts to seriously limit the playbox though.
No way are the majority of posters left of centre.
My own reading of dwellars is that most are a combination of left of centre and right of centre views. A lot of dwellars are, for instance, socially progressive and economically conservative.
I would go so far as to say the vast majority here are left of center.
Your post is screaming for a poll!! hear it?
Dana, set up a Poll Poll Poll
I never said "idiots."
I did say "weak-minded fools" and "sloppy thinkers" but I never said "idiots."
I was paraphrasing. Had I been quoting I'd have employed the quote box. Nice side step though.
I never said "idiots."
I did say "weak-minded fools" and "sloppy thinkers" but I never said "idiots."
/waves/These are not the insults you're looking for/jedi hand/
I would go so far as to say the vast majority here are left of center.
Your post is screaming for a poll!! hear it?
Dana, set up a Poll Poll Poll
Maybe it's a Brit thing. The board seems mostly centre right to me.
I was paraphrasing.
I couldn't tell if it was "paraphrasing," a "joke suggestion," or simply a "flippant comment." Exactly which kinds of posts absolve you of reponsibility? Does that work just for you, or am I also allowed to be "flippant" in your brave new world?
Starts to seriously limit the playbox though.
If you really believe someone is shitting in the corner of the sandbox, do you really want to play in that corner?
I get your point, but focusing on Merc seems kind of pointless to me. Sure he's an ass but really he's not alone and if he's quieted then some of the other asses will still make the politics forum unliveable. In the end I feel reasonable political discussion is done and dusted, not just in the cellar but in society.
Maybe it's a Brit thing. The board seems mostly centre right to me.
Then again, you think anything to the right of Marx is a neocon.
I couldn't tell if it was "paraphrasing," a "joke suggestion," or simply a "flippant comment." Exactly which kinds of posts absolve you of reponsibility? Does that work just for you, or am I also allowed to be "flippant" in your brave new world?
You can be flippant all you want sweetie.
The red and yellow card suggestion was in response to somebody else's suggestion that we have a referee: in football (soccer) referees show red and yellow cards when a player does something against the rules.
Not a hilarious joke I grant you, but a joke nonetheless.
You can tell when i am being serious: I explain myself. As I did here:
The Cellar is more than just a random collection of strangers. It is a community. We have, and continue to evolve accordingly. Unusually for an internet community we are very lightly moderated. Something I am very glad is the case. Because we do not have a clear ruleset and moderator enforcement, we self-manage as a community for the most part. Again, this is something I am glad of.
and here
I agree with this. I don't particularly want to see increased moderation in the Cellar.
I do think it's useful now and then for us to air this stuff though. If for no other reason than it lets people who've perhaps been under the impression that we're all cool with the shitslinging know that actually they're not alone and the problem has a wider recognition.
Now I'd like to get back the fact that you think Undertoad, Aliantha, Limey, Footfootfoot, BigV and Griff are weakminded fools who need to grow up or leave the cellar.
I'll side with him on almost all of that. UT, Limey, F3, BigV, and Griff are absolutely weak minded fools. Hell, I've seen each one of them if not completely change their opinion, then at least consider the other side's argument. That's totally weak minded. Aliantha though??? Hell, she's never once changed her opinion. That's strength right there.
If you really believe someone is shitting in the corner of the sandbox, do you really want to play in that corner?
I get your point, but focusing on Merc seems kind of pointless to me. Sure he's an ass but really he's not alone and if he's quieted then some of the other asses will still make the politics forum unliveable. In the end I feel reasonable political discussion is done and dusted, not just in the cellar but in society.
I don't really think this is all about Merc. I know some do, but that's really not my take on it at all.
Maybe you're right about this just being the way political discussion now works more generally.
Just to be absolutely clear: all I have done is express my frustration with a recurring problem as I percieve it. I am not, nor have I ever, suggesting that this be dealt with by increasing moderation or getting out the ban hammer.
I'll side with him on almost all of that. UT, Limey, F3, BigV, and Griff are absolutely weak minded fools. Hell, I've seen each one of them if not completely change their opinion, then at least consider the other side's argument. That's totally weak minded. Aliantha though??? Hell, she's never once changed her opinion. That's strength right there.
*chuckles*
I see what ya did thar.
Dana, I find it extremely disingenuous that you continue to accuse me of "refusing to engage" an issue, when I've made myself perfectly clear.
Here, just as in real life, as soon as someone begins down the path of whining and complaining about things, wanting God or the government to swoop in and solve all their problems for them, instead of making an attempt to practice some self-reliance and personal responsibility, this registers for me as a blank spot in my brain that literally doesn't exist. I'll say it again: Don't know. Don't care. Leave me out of it.
Bonus Content, "How Self-Policing Works": When you post asinine bullcrap, I ignore you!
Flint this whole thing got stirred up because of your post to Jill. It pissed off a lot of people and they spoke up about it. Deal with it.
Flint this whole thing got stirred up because of your post to Jill. It pissed off a lot of people and they spoke up about it. Deal with it.
That's fine. But don't expect me to deal with it in a context of something that I neither know nor care about. Leave me out of your foolish, weak-minded, childish nonsense and don't expect me to fall for the old "I'm leaving" routine. If you're leaving, leave.
As far as I can tell nobody is expecting that. But it is pretty petty of you to call people weak-minded, foolish, and childish just because they expect discourse to be a little more civil than in what you exhibited in that post to Jill. And of course what Merc does. That isn't what I call a good example of adult conversation.
That's fine. Don't expect me to deal with it in a context of something that I neither know nor care about. Leave me out of your foolish, weak-minded, childish nonsense and don't expect me to fall for the old "I'm leaving" routine.
As far as I can tell, nobody has dragged you into this thread, nor have they forced you to participate in the discussion.
You don't care about it why are you still here? Leave us alone to discuss our foolish, weakminded childish nonsense in peace.
To paraphrase a flippant comment (as a joke of course): you started it.
Dana, I find it extremely disingenuous that you continue to accuse me of "refusing to engage" an issue, when I've made myself perfectly clear.
Here, just as in real life, as soon as someone begins down the path of whining and complaining about things, wanting God or the government to swoop in and solve all their problems for them, instead of making an attempt to practice some self-reliance and personal responsibility, this registers for me as a blank spot in my brain that literally doesn't exist. I'll say it again: Don't know. Don't care. Leave me out of it.
Bonus Content, "How Self-Policing Works": When you post asinine bullcrap, I ignore you!
Nobody is asking anybody else to deal with this for them. You may have made yourself perfectly clear but you're making yourself clear on a tangential point.
To paraphrase a flippant comment (as a joke of course): you started it.
Did I really?
Did I not do the flippant comment thing correctly?
Oh you did it splendidly. I was responding in kind.
Oh heck, I messed up. Is that a red card?
Ahahahahaha.
Very good.
[eta] damn. The pre-edit post was funnier.
[eta] damn. The pre-edit post was funnier.
Sorry, I'm a compulsive editor. I questioned whether the additional "paraphrase" reference was repetitive.
[SIZE="1"] [COLOR="White"]I had said:[/COLOR] [/SIZE]
[SIZE="1"] [COLOR="white"]You're a slippery one. I will paraphrase you yet![/COLOR] [/SIZE]
You may have made yourself perfectly clear but you're making yourself clear on a tangential point.
Then I haven't made myself clear. It isn't a tangential point. It is a solution to all of the problems that have been discussed.
Then I haven't made myself clear. It isn't a tangential point. It is a solution to all of the problems that have been discussed.
On that I am afraid we will have to agree to differ.
Because of the nature of the lefty pack here,
You've made that reference twice, now. Do you mean that Liberals think as one, or that Liberals gang up on an individual?
the lefty horde "gang up" to silence the voices of reason
I've never had any interactions with UG, but I do get a good laugh out of his posts.
I guess I wasnt clear enough. In my experience, Mercenary is the primary instigator and the one who has two sets of rules, one for himself and one for those who challenge his opinions with their own.
I get fed up with Merc's disrespectful treatment of other posters and the way he posts long cut and pastes. I often skip his replies. However, I have communicated with Merc through PM's and he did me a kindness once. Perhaps, because of these things, he doesn't respond to me as virulently as he does to other dwellers. At any rate, this shows he can be civilized when he feels like it. He just seldom feels like it.
And SIA, I'm glad you enjoy that other forum but if UT were to start something along those lines in the cellar I don't think it would work. Actually the cellar would probably become a much friendlier place but it would be at the cost of a large portion of long term dwellars.
Actually, we have very passionate debates on that board. I don't think rep points stop anyone, including me, from expressing their opinions. There, rep points are more about longevity on the board than they are anything else.
I don't see that rep points would make the cellar "friendlier," either. If UG, for example, had a string of red squares after his name, he'd probably take it as a sign that he's been successful at lambasting all us wimps. And if Merc or UG or the like gave me a negative rep, I'd consider it a badge of honor. But the Cellar is small enough that we really don't need score cards on the members, and I think people would ignore them, anyway.
It's been said a thousand times before, and I'll say it again. People who are interested in an intelligent debate and consider name calling the provenance of kindergarteners do just ignore the politics forum which is too bad. There's no point in having it as long as Merc and UG are allowed to attack anyone who suggests a different point of view than their own.
I don't like banning people, but maybe those two should be banned from that forum. Don't know if this is possible. But in the absence of any other solution, we should just rename "Politics" to the "Merc and UG Ugliness Forum." That way, new members like Jill would at least be warned.
, we should just rename "Politics" to the "Merc and UG Ugliness Forum." That way, new members like Jill would at least be warned.
Go back some months or years and you could use other names. The instigators and asshats change and the people who are irritated change. Personally I don't think the politics forum ever really recovered from the 04 election. or was it the 06?
It was probably the '04...it was widespread.
[pipes up in childish voice]
This board looks centre-right to me, too. I do think there is a difference between where the Americans and the British place the "centre".
I volunteered to mod a thread if people found that a helpful idea - I can't say I'm particularly in favour of modding, but feel that I can tell a gratuitous insult from a reasoned argument and offered that as a contribution to calming things down.
I'm not at all sorry the offer's not been taken up.
I "self-police" my involvement with the trolls, unpleasant regulars and other nastinesses on the board by not engaging with them. I have employed the "ignore" function twice, but mostly I skip over the stuff I want to avoid. As a lot of this is in the politics forum, I don't go in there at all.
Usually the shit settles down after a while and the Cellar becomes a pleasant place to hang out again for a while.
[/childish voice]
Thanks Dana for covering for me (mwah!).
i don't post (with the exception of the osama thread and a couple others) for basically the reason here everyone is discussing. why would one want to post their views only to be butt fucked (and not in a good way mind you) for their beliefs? seems to me that went down in the mid 1900's and the outcome was useless death and torture. not saying that the politics thread here is useless death and torture but hey, why post my views when someone is gonna come along and say that i deserve to be raped by tribbles from star trek? ok thx bai!
That's it. Get the tribbles.
I've changed my mind. I'm on Flint's side now.
:lol2:
thank god it's time to cook supper!
grilled black drum and jalapeño poppers. any takers?
I've changed my mind. I'm on Flint's side now.
:::head explodes:::
I've changed my mind. I'm on Flint's side now.
rofl.
Yeah, you got me lookout. I really just wanted to be like everyone else though.
Oh wait, but everyone is against Flint aren't they? Hmmm...that now makes me a strong minded thinking doesn't it?
Oh darn it, I'm so confused. I'm just going to go sit in the sand pit (a bit over to the left side) and play with my barbie dolls.
Learn the rules. Weaklings change their minds. The strong stand by their convictions. right or wrong.
@ Ali: I believe it does yes.
Oh darn it, I'm so confused. I'm just going to go sit in the sand pit (a bit over to the left side) and play with my barbie dolls.
Watch out for the shit in that corner.
[dirty dancing]Nobody puts shit in the corner![/dirty dancing]
I'll try to be patient... You see, dear, when a person becomes a grown-up, they can decide to approach things by not being in a reactive state, e.g. "Flint posted at me mean so I left the Cellar." You see, sweetie, when mommies and daddies go to work, their bosses would fire them if they acted that way. That is called having a bad attitude.
Now, you know I love you and want you to be the very best person you can be, right? So, I'm trying to teach you how to behave properly. Good little boys and girls don’t make excuses--they accept responsibility for their own actions. If you can do that, then you can do anything you set your mind to! Now go to sleep, little one. I'll turn on your night-light so you don't get scared by the Merc under your bed.
Flint, to be perfectly honest, I couldn't give a shit what you or anyone else much thinks. I'm just sick of this stupid argument. It's the same thing over and over again. If you don't like it leave. Just stop whining about how everyone should just grow up and be grown ups. You're just being condescending and it's not helping your argument which is very much the same as a number of other posters here.
I'm not a fan of the big flounce off thing. There have been times when I've stayed away from this place because it's been giving me the shits but I don't think I've ever posted a 'goodbye cruel world' thread. I think the people who do are just a bit dramatic really.
It's an internet forum ffs. Who gives a shit right?
So sick of the argument that you showed up to get in the last word, huh?
Nope. Saw my name mentioned and cracked a joke cause that's about all I think of this thread now.
Uh-huh. So you were "forced to" post something directed at me, right? You had no choice, the thread "made you" do it. Is that it?
Nope. Wrong again. I posted something directed at you because you're being a dick again IMO and I felt like expressing my feelings. :)
Expressing your feelings about the argument you're sick of. But you're perpetuating by posting here. So which is it? Are you only sick of the parts you disagree with, or the whole thing? I don't think you've really thought this through very clearly.
Flint, are you enjoying it? I notice you're posting a lot, so which is it? Have you made your point or is there more to come?
eta: the reason I'm still here is because I'm avoiding doing something else, and you're amusing me with your bullshit.
Nice try, but I haven't contradicted myself.
eta: Yes, I'm enjoying it, and I'm glad you're amused.
Well, maybe you should put a bit more thought into some of your posts, because obviously they're not clear enough for anyone to understand without repeated questioning while you go getting your knickers in a knot up there on your high horse.
Honestly, I couldn't give a shit if there's less or more moderation here. I think this whole thing is just a repeat of numerous arguments that've taken place here before.
BTW, where's my contradiction?
Where's the popcorn icon on my Android?
Oh here it is. ..
:corn:
Your contradiction is in spouting off that you are sick of an argument... that you just had to come back and get yourself re-involved in.
I would go so far as to call that a glaring contradiction.
Well, I think if you try to follow my posts, you'll see where I've explained my presence here, and also my continued presence (although you've only got me for one more cup of coffee then I'm gone for three days).
So, you're...not sick of it? Or...?
You've made that reference twice, now. Do you mean that Liberals think as one, or that Liberals gang up on an individual?
When merc is on his worst behavior it looks to me that leftocenters tag team on him. He is usually asking for it but that tactic has never reduced his nonsense posting, rather it increases the nonsense. As has been said ignoring is the best option but it is damn hard to leave falsehoods out there.
We need more flags. Here is Saudi Arabia for hypocrisy :f166: Flint gets the first.
:lol2:
thank god it's time to cook supper!
grilled black drum and jalapeño poppers. any takers?
Yes please.
Is it snare drum?
When merc is on his worst behavior it looks to me that leftocenters tag team on him. He is usually asking for it but that tactic has never reduced his nonsense posting, rather it increases the nonsense. As has been said ignoring is the best option but it is damn hard to leave falsehoods out there.
.
That seems a fair observation. I'd probably hold my hand up to that. Not deliberately. I think we probably all reach our boilpoint at a similar stage with him so it looks like a tagteam effort.
Yes please.
Is it snare drum?
Should have been. Again, as i said someplace else....black drum sucks. The poppers were excellent but the drum had no flavor as always...
Learn the rules. Weaklings change their minds. The strong stand by their convictions. right or wrong.
I'm standing by my original conviction, I still don't think you're sexy. Sorry, bro.
What the hell did I miss? Jill was the reason I came here. :-/
What the hell did I miss? Jill was the reason I came here. :-/
Jill was warned in
"Obama Announces Re-election Bid":
Jill - he will reply only when he has insults. Apparently he has a problem with "Truths that are self-evident" when truths contradict a political agenda.
There are only moderates and extremists. Latter driven by a political agenda. So he would rewrite a fundamental American document to promote what?
Spexxvet suggested one solution:
Pssst: use the ignore list. You'll enjoy the Cellar more.
Unfortunately, Jill decided to post with honesty and logic. So she suffered numerous personal attacks and insults, as predicted. An example in
No House resolution honoring SEAL's bin Laden mission:
Ok, you just believe whatever the hell you want to believe. Fool.
We need more flags. Here is Saudi Arabia for hypocrisy :f166: Flint gets the first.
Aw, man. What an awkward honor. Do I need to beg the mercy of the supreme council to have this removed?
The Supreme Council doesn't know the meaning of the word mercy.
Their chief weapon is fear, and a fanatical devotion to the Pope?
[SIZE="6"]Fetch the cushions!!!!!![/SIZE]
amongst their weaponry are such diverse elements as...
[bugs bunny]
What a revoltin' development!
[/bb]
Look at all the nice people pointing fingers at all the mean people. Oh, that's not very nice.
It's like the Tea Party all up in heah.
/yawn
Ideally, people would focus on the issue at hand and not the character of the person debating.
Ha!
Yeah, I know...that doesn't happen out there on the campaign trail and in public, where it matters, why should it be expected on an internet forum where everyone is relatively anonymous?
Now, I'm off to the fluffy threads where nothing serious or intelligent is ever said.
When merc is on his worst behavior it looks to me that leftocenters tag team on him.
That's true. I've found that righties are very willing to dogpile (or gangrape, as someone else put it).
chyeah - You couldn't even get enough "righties" to make a dogpile on here.
Oh come on now. There are plenty of righties here.
I find it quite amusing that the lefties on this board think that they are in the minority and the righties think the same.
I find it quite amusing that the lefties on this board think that they are in the minority and the righties think the same.
Great observation! It does seem that way.
I think it's pretty equal, actually. Or maybe, with the exception of us extremists (see what I did thar?) lefties are sometimes too frightened to be out and out lefties and righties are too stubborn to admit to out and out rightism. :lol:
:f20:Here you go infi:f20:
-you get bermuda for your sense of humor. A little Brit in there, but mostly a big mysterious area where strange things happen and people get lost :D
Thank you! :)
You made my day.
....and now I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.....
:lol:
I'm not!
But, as P.T. Barnum said...always keep 'em guessing.
I thought he said keep 'em gassing.....?
Wasn't that Himmler?
(just kill me now. i can't believe I said that...)
so....
....if someone mentions Himmler...does that mean the thread is dead?
(pleasebetruepleasebetruepleasebetrue)
so....
....if someone mentions Himmler...does that mean the thread is dead?
(pleasebetruepleasebetruepleasebetrue)
All you have to do is believe!
Should we all clap our hands?
And let's do a celebratory dance:
Clap your hands everybody
Slide to the left
Take it back now y'all
One hop this time
Right foot lets stomp
Left foot lets stomp
Cha Cha now y'all
To the left
Take it back now y'all
Two hops this time
Two on the left
Two on the right
Cha Cha now y'all
Slide to the right
Slide to the left
Take it back now y'all
One hop this time
Right foot lets stomp
Left foot lets stomp
Charlie Brown
Cha Cha now y'all
Five hops this time
Touch your knees
How low can you go
Can go down low
All the way to floor
Can you bring it the top
Like you never never stop
One hop this time
Right foot lets stomp
Left lets stomp
Reverse Reverse
Reverse Reverse
Here we go again
Same old shit again
Marching down the avenue
Few more days and we'll be through
I won't have to look at you
So, I'll be glad and so will you
Mamma mia, here I go again
My my, how can I resist you?
Mamma mia, does it show again?
My my, just how much I've missed you
Yes, I've been brokenhearted
Blue since the day we parted
Why, why did I ever let you go?
Mamma mia, now I really know,
My my, I could never let you go
Oops! I did it again
I played with your heart, got lost in the game
Oh baby, baby
Oops! You think I'm in love
That I'm sent from above
I'm not that innocent
Oh baby ...
Jump, you know my heart can make you happy
Jump, you know these arms can feel you up
Jump in, you want to taste my kisses
In the night then, jump, jump for my love
I don't know where I'm going
But, I sure know where I've been
Hanging on the promises
In songs of yesterday
An' I've made up my mind,
I ain't wasting no more time
But, here I go again
Here I go again
Tho' I keep searching for an answer,
I never seem to find what I'm looking for
Oh Lord, I pray
You give me strength to carry on,
'Cos I know what it means
To walk along the lonely street of dreams
An' here I go again on my own
Goin' down the only road I've ever known,
Like a drifter I was born to walk alone
An' I've made up my mind
I ain't wasting no more time
I'm just another heart in need of rescue,
Waiting on love's sweet charity
An' I'm gonna hold on
For the rest of my days,
'Cos I know what it means
To walk along the lonely street of dreams
An' here I go again on my own
Goin' down the only road I've ever known,
Like a drifter I was born to walk alone
An' I've made up my mind
I ain't wasting no more time...
Oh come on now. There are plenty of righties here.
I find it quite amusing that the lefties on this board think that they are in the minority and the righties think the same.
Great observation! It does seem that way.
I think it's pretty equal, actually. Or maybe, with the exception of us extremists (see what I did thar?) lefties are sometimes too frightened to be out and out lefties and righties are too stubborn to admit to out and out rightism. :lol:
Word.
IM has a point. 2 when it's cold.
I think there are a couple of very vocal life long lefties, a couple of young haven't experienced anything yet lefties, and a whole lot of left leaning centrists. I also think there are a handful right leaning centrists (including a lifelong democrat) and a couple of right wing nutjobs.
I'm not really a right wing nutjob, I just play one in the cellar. I happen to hate the republicans with as much conviction as I do the democrats.
How can anyone admit to being a Democrat. It was the party of slavery and opression. Isn't admiting to being a Democrat the same as claiming to be a Nazi (in the overall magnitude of evil)? Nazism was "squashed" in 1945, but Democrats continue to systematically deny civil rights and even commit murders up until the late 1960's.
Democrats = Nazis = Pure Evil
You have to admit it is true. Do you support lynch mobs, segregation, and slavery?
How can anyone admit to being a Democrat. It was the party of slavery and opression. Isn't admiting to being a Democrat the same as claiming to be a Nazi (in the overall magnitude of evil)? Nazism was "squashed" in 1945, but Democrats continue to systematically deny civil rights and even commit murders up until the late 1960's.
Democrats = Nazis = Pure Evil
Sarge - Up until now I assumed that you were a right-leaner with brain cells. But this divisive post makes me question that assumption. Do you really imagine that such posts convince left-leaners the error of their ways?
If this was intended to be a humorous mocking of some other Dwellar's style, then you should have stuck a smiley on it. Irony can be really hard to detect on the internet.
Either way - not helping.
How about this: ;)
It makes about as much sense as some of opinions posted about George Bush & Republicans. Everything I said is factual. It all comes down to how you interpret the data
It makes about as much sense as some of opinions posted about George Bush & Republicans.
OK. And how persuasive did you find those posts?
realistically, no one on here will change their political beliefs based upon posts on the cellar. do you??
realistically, no one on here will change their political beliefs based upon posts on the cellar. do you??
That's not true. I have been persuaded by the arguments of people here on certain issues. Maybe not to believe what they believe but to modify my opinions/views. Why bother interacting with people if you are not going to consider what they have to say?
Not many will admit having been won over, perhaps? But I'm pretty sure I've seen others who have conceded points and modified their views accordingly.
Or maybe I was dreaming
I'm open to persuasion on many topics. And yes, I have modified my thinking more than once based on conversations here at the cellar.
If you won't learn from today, what need have you for tomorrow?
I've adjusted my views because of posts in the Cellar.
Not recently though. There haven't been too many good political conversations lately.
heehee .....I see fodder for the righties claiming right! (even though i gotta say one of my major wake-up calls/changes of POV was how giving certain extremists an inch led them to take a mile so I realized I needed to steer in the other direction :lol:)
heehee .....I see fodder for the righties claiming right! (even though i gotta say one of my major wake-up calls/changes of POV was how giving certain extremists an inch led them to take a mile so I realized I needed to steer in the other direction :lol:)
I thought you used the metric system.
Please re-post with appropriate units.
How can anyone admit to being a Democrat. It was the party of slavery and opression. Isn't admiting to being a Democrat the same as claiming to be a Nazi (in the overall magnitude of evil)? Nazism was "squashed" in 1945, but Democrats continue to systematically deny civil rights and even commit murders up until the late 1960's.
Democrats = Nazis = Pure Evil
Wouldnt that be like questioning how anyone could be a Republican? It
is the party that wants to impose their moral values of all of society and restrict who you can marry, control a woman's reproductive rights, condemn a religion and attempt to limit its practice?
The difference? WAS the party vs IS the party. :)
I thought you used the metric system.
Please re-post with appropriate units.
Old world sayin's have 666c(3) metric exemption ...plus I'm all American now (except for the legal shit).
Wouldnt that be like questioning how anyone could be a Republican? It is the party that wants to impose their moral values of all of society and restrict who you can marry, control a woman's reproductive rights, condemn a religion and attempt to limit its practice?
The difference? WAS the party vs IS the party. :)
I'm not an R, but... that's a rather skewed perception.
Thats like saying the Democrats ARE the party of child murderers.
I'm not an R, but... that's a rather skewed perception.
Thats like saying the Democrats ARE the party of child murderers.
Of course its skewed.
It was a response to a skewed post and skewed view of history to make a point.
This thread almost sorted itself out.
Nope, more dirty laundry.
Hey, it's mostly civil though, I'm cool with it. It is fun to watch Dana and Lookout flirting. If this were a movie, they would have to end up in bed together; it's one of those narrative conventions that just takes control.
I'm open to persuasion on many topics. And yes, I have modified my thinking more than once based on conversations here at the cellar.
I've adjusted my views because of posts in the Cellar.
Not recently though. There haven't been too many good political conversations lately.
thirded.
I've been hot for that commie tart ever since she showed her Marx spouting mouth around these parts.
realistically, no one on here will change their political beliefs based upon posts on the cellar. do you??
The Cellar has fundamentally altered my political beliefs.
It has changed my orientation to right-wingers, and given me a different perspective on the left. I am still a socialist. But I have taken on board some of what I've read on here and that has filtered through and changed the tone of that socialism.
Most importantly, it has altered how I see the political divide. Taken alongside recent studies around brain chemistry ad political orientation, the Cellar has made me believe we need both in society.
That realistion, combined with my experiences of party politics, has removed my life-long opposition to PR (proportional representation) and changed my orientation to the first past the post system and the shape of our Parliament.
That is a fairly fundamental change in my political outlook. And the Cellar has been a significant factor in that.
[eta] I pressed reply from the previous page and missed the comments here. Rowr!
I'm not an R, but... that's a rather skewed perception.
Thats like saying the Democrats ARE the party of child murderers.
we learned in school that they were! you mean they lied to us??
plus I'm all American now (except for the legal shit).
No kidding. American (fatty) bacon in a chicken recipe? That's pretty American right thar.
Oh no, bacon rolls are an essential part of good old British roast chicken dinner. bacon and chicken are inseparable.
Oh no, bacon rolls are an essential part of good old British roast chicken dinner. bacon and chicken are inseparable.
Well shoot.
Well shoot.
Can't -I'm a gun-banning freedom-hatin' liberal ;)
Here you go, chicken/bacon mama:
(My friend made those kebabs...she goes all out. I just ate some chicken/bacon and the pineapple. mmmmmm.)
Hey. Interesting note. I went to a restaurant called HOUSE OF KABAB and you know what?
No Kababs.
That wasn't a restaurant. Didn't you notice the very surprised and stressed out man and woman? That was Phil and Doris KaBob. They're a very nice Macedonian family.