Osama Bin Laden is Dead!!!
So if he is dead does that make a difference in who will be elected next term?
I just fixed a drink and we had a Bacon Toast in Honor of this Auspicious event !!
Praise Allah! We have another martyr. Will his death end the war on terror? Doubtful
It does say you can't hide from the US forever it only took 14 years :eyebrow:
Can we please come home now? Support our troops! Get them out of Afghanistan!
I'm guessing that the Republican party is feeling really conflicted right now. This has gotta help Obama's numbers.
Kudos to Merc. He is a former member of the unit that took bin Laden out.
[youtube]YZdJRDpLHbw[/youtube] (NSFW)
Okay, guys -- Easter Hymn:
O-sa-ma is dead to-day-ay,
A-a-a-a-al-la-hu A-akbar!
Said so on the first of May-ay,
Allahu Akbar!
The wife came in and told me the news. First words out of my mouth were, "Hm. Allahu Akbar."
It's also cool that tw must shut up about "and where is bin Laden?" now. Not that that will stop him from continually demonstrating his contemptible mentality, but it's still cool.
Obama did what Bush wouldn't? Am I reading this correctly?
Must cause a real rift at the Bush/bin Laden joint family picnic.
Well I'll be goddamned. I never would have imagined he was still alive after all these years. I, for one, had been absolutely convinced he'd been quietly or accidentally killed years ago. It's amazing that he hadn't released any more videos in so long, when the slightest message from him would have surely encouraged Al Qaeda fighters around the world. The CNN article said there was no phone or internet connection to the compound he was staying at... I wonder if they were protecting him against his will, to a certain degree.
Anyway, now's as good a time as any for the fucker to die. Good job, Navy Seals.
Well I'll be goddamned. I never would have imagined he was still alive after all these years. I, for one, had been absolutely convinced he'd been quietly or accidentally killed years ago. It's amazing that he hadn't released any more videos in so long, when the slightest message from him would have surely encouraged Al Qaeda fighters around the world. The CNN article said there was no phone or internet connection to the compound he was staying at... I wonder if they were protecting him against his will, to a certain degree.
Anyway, now's as good a time as any for the fucker to die. Good job, Navy Seals.
Well put - I wholeheartedly agree.
I'm waiting for Trump to demand the long form death certificate.
Can you not be a petty asshole for one day?
Sorry silly question.
Can you not have a pretty asshole for one day?
Sorry silly question.
I think this was meant for you Sheldon, I fixed it for Dave ;)
To whom was it directed? :confused:
Can you not be a petty asshole for one day?
Sorry silly question.
Have we lost our sense of humor?
Perhaps he has, I know I haven't.
You insensitive bastards, my osama bin laden was killed on 9/11.......
....what?
Clodfobble, I agree -I too had assumed he must already be dead.
YESSSSSSSSssssssssss (makes fist and underhandedly pumps it back!)
(makes fist and underhandedly pumps it back!)
Must be hockey season.
can we use osama's head for the puck?
i wonder.....if they confirm which soldier took him out, does he get the reward??
can we use osama's head for the puck?
i wonder.....if they confirm which soldier took him out, does he get the reward??
No - budget deficit and all .... you know.
I thought it was a bit weird that they dumped the body so fast in the ocean, but it makes sense. Apparently it's the Islamic practice to bury a body within 24 hours of death, and they didn't want there to be a grave that supporters could visit. This way, the US can't be accused of disrespecting the body by Muslims.
No - budget deficit and all .... you know.
yeah i fingered that one. but they should at least officially buy him a beer!
I thought it was a bit weird that they dumped the body so fast in the ocean, but it makes sense. Apparently it's the Islamic practice to bury a body within 24 hours of death, and they didn't want there to be a grave that supporters could visit. This way, the US can't be accused of disrespecting the body by Muslims.
that and teh sea critters get to be fed!
:D
[YOUTUBE]FAaSPq1Rmc0[/YOUTUBE]
When you work for the government you don't get rewards ... ask anyone in the military :rolleyes:
Can you not be a petty asshole for one day?
Sorry silly question.
Back at ya kiddeo.
I thought it was funny, Sheldon. :D
Seriously, all y'all are totally missing the point here.....
every season is hockey season.
(Was that comment really aimed at sheldon? really? for telling a joke that's all over facebook and so clearly found funny by many people? really? If it wasn't for the use of the word "he", I would have thought it was aimed at infi. Either way, it just deserves ignoring. Some days some people just get out of the wrong side of bed. Some people have beds with two wrong sides. No, I don't believe it was aimed at sheldon. I did have to check to see what I'd already posted.... maybe it was pre-posted in anticipation of something assholish by me. It's all about me.)
My thoughts exactly. Thought the self-imposed jail sentence was to allow time to look for big boy pants. Was willing to let bygones be bygones, time after time saying nothing or chuckling at a comment. But I'm the only one he hates, in this thread anyway, and we know he and Shel are buddies.
Typical P/A.
Same old fucking crap. Different fucking month.
I'm slightly uncomfortable with the glee people I work with are expressing. Like it makes a fucking bit of difference at this point. They're practically high fiving each other. Go America! We got that fucker! in just 10 short years! wahoo!
jesus.
I hear you, but it will be a big ego blow for the organized terrorists and that's gotta be a good thing. When I first glanced at your post, though the word glee jumped out, and my first thought was that they were making a musical about it. Now that would be too much.
I agree JH the glee is creepy and he was on the FBI most wanted since '97 so 14 years
I'm slightly uncomfortable with the glee people I work with are expressing. Like it makes a fucking bit of difference at this point. They're practically high fiving each other. Go America! We got that fucker! in just 10 short years! wahoo!
jesus.
Same here. I feel a sense of grim satisfaction. The celebration calls to mind this:
[YOUTUBE]KrM0dAFsZ8k[/YOUTUBE]
that and teh sea critters get to be fed!
Leave those poor sea creatures alone. They've been through enough!
Well IM I am sure you too have a "pretty asshole" :)
You know what I want to know WTF is wrong with the damn helicopters in this country? Why is it during critical missions the damn things crash?
Well IM I am sure you too have a "pretty asshole" :)
we may require picture of that to be sure! :D ;)
now in other news....
CAIRO — A computer programmer, startled by a helicopter clattering above his quiet Pakistani town in the early hours of the morning Monday, did what any social-media addict would do: he began sending messages to the social networking site Twitter.
from
here
Eight hours and about 35 tweets later, the confirmation came: "Osama Bin Laden killed in Abbottabad, Pakistan," Athar reported. "There goes the neighborhood."
CAIRO — A computer programmer, startled by a helicopter clattering above his quiet Pakistani town in the early hours of the morning Monday, did what any social-media addict would do: he began sending messages to the social networking site Twitter.
why didn't he upload the footage from his smartphone to youtube?
good point! if i can do it from work after not riding a go kart for 15 years he surely could've done it too!
Best pick-up line ever: "Hey babe, wanna do the guy that put a bullet in Bin Laden?".
So, in lieu of the $25M that can be folded back into DoD's budget, MoH and Navy Crosses all around? The shooter is likely to have a mighty good career in SpecOps.
Bravo Zulu SEALs.
Just hung out with a couple old Vietnam guys, Vietnam Veteran ball caps and all, in front of a Starbucks I frequent. Quiet grim satisfaction from these.
Even HuffPo expresses satisfaction, though necessarily less quietly.
Shel - I apologize - Totally got that wrong. I thought it was another person posting.
In rereading, I see it was meant as humor. Again, I apologize to YOU.
Monnie & Shaw - you both may continue to fuck off. Please don't let bygones be bygones. You have repeatedly said how much you respect & want honestly. I am well aware that you both dislike me and you both know the feeling is mutual from my side.
Have a Blessed day.
Infinite Monkey, the reason leftists inhabit the left of center portion of the spectrum is a demonstrable want of psychological maturity -- most often expressed in a seeking of a parent-figure in the State. Nanny State or Daddy State -- it's roughly the same thing. Do you really think you or for that matter any leftward sort has the standing to tell Classicman to grow up? We are talking about the dysfunctionality of an entire political philosophy here, since you bring it to the forefront.
Shel - I apologize - Totally got that wrong. I thought it was another person posting.
So you read posts differently depending on who is writing them?
I think that's actually fairly common here, but I never heard anyone admit it.
Maybe it went without saying -- but yeah. Sorta. Though likelier the blame really lies in the universal human tendency to hear not so much what somebody said, as the interior inputs of what the listener thinks and hears already -- that every received communication goes through the filter of the self before it gets anywhere near the reading-comprehension level.
It's a nuisance, as the only way to avoid it is to have no self nor memories at all. Which would be sort of like turning into a walking telephone, or other communications apparatus. Doesn't sound practical.
Shel - I apologize - Totally got that wrong. I thought it was another person posting.
In rereading, I see it was meant as humor. Again, I apologize to YOU.
Monnie & Shaw - you both may continue to fuck off. Please don't let bygones be bygones. You have repeatedly said how much you respect & want honestly. I am well aware that you both dislike me and you both know the feeling is mutual from my side.
Have a Blessed day.
:lol2:
Let us not forget why we are here. It is to celebrate the death of Osama Bin Laden. May all of his 72 virgins be big-dicked tops!
So you read posts differently depending on who is writing them?
I think that's actually fairly common here, but I never heard anyone admit it.
Really? After coming here for about 7 years, yes absolutely. To not do so would be rather disingenuous, IMO.
Why wouldn't one admit that?
Let us not forget why we are here. It is to celebrate the death of Osama Bin Laden. May all of his 72 virgins be big-dicked tops!
HERE! HERE! :D
HERE! HERE! :D
yes indeed! now. let's go farting!
Really? After coming here for about 7 years, yes absolutely. To not do so would be rather disingenuous, IMO.
Why wouldn't one admit that?
So you are admitting to reading posts with a view to picking a fight, because that comment was funny regardless of who posted it and yet you respond with
Can you not be a petty asshole for one day?
Sorry silly question.
- - -
sorry folks, that will be my last comment on that, but really......
No your assholiness. I never said I read a post to pick a fight - thats your game.
yes indeed! now. let's go farting!
And put some STANK on it!
No your assholiness. I never said I read a post to pick a fight - thats your game.
When you read a post, you obviously tailor your response depending on who wrote it. There is no denying what kind of response your post was. You took a perfectly benign thread and sullied it with your pettiness. You did the same thing in the Unions thread.
Are you having a bad day? Cuz it seems like you came here to vent.
Do I need to go all PP on your asses? :eyebrow:
you want to go pee-pee on my ass? :bolt:
anyway! back to the matter at hand.....
With Bin Laden killed, Ayman al-Zawahri becomes the top candidate for the world's top terror job.
It's too early to tell how exactly al-Qaida would change with its founder and supreme mentor gone, but the group under al-Zawahri would likely be further radicalized, unleashing a new wave of attacks to avenge bib Laden's killing by U.S. troops in Pakistan on Monday to send a message that it's business as usual.
it will be interesting to see what he does for "retaliation" as i'm sure he'll call it.
from
hereRaise oil prices ... oh wait
When you read a post, you obviously tailor your response depending on who wrote it.
Yes I do - Much like any type of communication.
Are you having a bad day? Cuz it seems like you came here to vent.
I never denied what my post was, just to whom it was directed.
I apologized to Shel...
Now tell me why you are interjecting yourself in something thats already been resolved?
Raise oil prices ... oh wait
Far more crafty to lower oil prices and put some engine killer chemical in it.....
...I'm in the wrong profession, aren't I?
Raise oil prices ... oh wait
...yeah. So last Thursday.
C'est déjà fait.And next Thursday, and the one after that....
Infinite Monkey, the reason leftists inhabit the left of center portion of the spectrum is a demonstrable want of psychological maturity -- most often expressed in a seeking of a parent-figure in the State. Nanny State or Daddy State -- it's roughly the same thing. Do you really think you or for that matter any leftward sort has the standing to tell Classicman to grow up? We are talking about the dysfunctionality of an entire political philosophy here, since you bring it to the forefront.
UG, the reason rightists inhabit the right of center portion of the spectrum is a demonstrable lack of intelligence -- most often expressed by babbling on without any shred of reason. Do you really think you or for that matter any rightward sort has the standing to tell IM off? We are talking about the dysfunctionality of an entire political philosophy here, since you bring it to the forefront.
They missed him it's all faked, he's changed his accent and moved to Scotland, he's ordering his dinner from the local chip shop :D
[YOUTUBE]zQvtijBoAfo[/YOUTUBE]
UG, the reason rightists inhabit the right of center portion of the spectrum is a demonstrable lack of intelligence -- most often expressed by babbling on without any shred of reason. Do you really think you or for that matter any rightward sort has the standing to tell IM off? We are talking about the dysfunctionality of an entire political philosophy here, since you bring it to the forefront.
What can be said, Pete, of the intellectual penetration of a man who, er, did not write all of his response, nor even attempt an original thought? It can be said that he is letting the side down, that's what.
After two generations' record, it is clear the Left's ideals deserve to go extinct. The clear-eyed not only understand this, they say so.
Now Pete, look over here closely. Do you see concern in my soul over what you -- let's for convenience call it "wrote" knowing who did the lifting -- in either eye? If you're the best the anti-conservatives could muster around here, I laugh. I laugh.
Nothing from Ted Rall, regrettable Left lunatic-fringe tassel, as of yet. Per his schedule, it's also due now.
Ted Rall's the kind of critter
people sometimes write things about. Sean Hannity did not hit him in the mouth.
This conversation is why we are considering having a failed state.
UG, the reason rightists inhabit the right of center portion of the spectrum is a demonstrable lack of intelligence -- most often expressed by babbling on without any shred of reason. Do you really think you or for that matter any rightward sort has the standing to tell IM off? We are talking about the dysfunctionality of an entire political philosophy here, since you bring it to the forefront.
You're right, Pete. One could exchange certain words with 'opposite' words, and I could have said the same thing right back to the illustrious UG. Only I'm not so clever. :)
So subtly clever that its quiet brilliance was missed by him, who knows clever. ;)
You're right, Pete. One could exchange certain words with 'opposite' words, and I could have said the same thing right back to the illustrious UG. Only I'm not so clever. :)
So subtly clever that its quiet brilliance was missed by him, who knows clever. ;)
No you and Pete clearly missed his brilliance and cleverness. I mean, I have never ever seen such awesome satire. His diction, and delivery are so well thought out and perfect it makes you truly think he believes the dribble he's spouting. It is also the deadpan serious way he writes, its hard to even catch on to the fact that he's spoofing a right wing extremist nut job. To add a cherry on top, he personalizes it by actually addressing a poster and attacking them all they while pretending he's taking the moral high ground! I roll on the floor laughing every time.
What can be said, Pete, of the intellectual penetration of a man who, er, did not write all of his response, nor even attempt an original thought? It can be said that he is letting the side down, that's what.
After two generations' record, it is clear the Left's ideals deserve to go extinct. The clear-eyed not only understand this, they say so.
Now Pete, look over here closely. Do you see concern in my soul over what you -- let's for convenience call it "wrote" knowing who did the lifting -- in either eye? If you're the best the anti-conservatives could muster around here, I laugh. I laugh.
UG, please look up the word satire, then have another look at both posts. I had hoped that you might see that your non-sequitors are easy to copy (and mock). The reason that most of us do not resort to such stupidity is that we prefer reasoned discourse. A skill you have yet to display.
Have you had any effect during your time here? Have you convinced even one person of the reasonableness of the right? I ask anyone who has been swayed to the right by UGs 'arguments' to step forth.
And still I wonder if you aren't really an AstroTurf shill for the Dems - your arguments are so awful.
in honor of his death, i jumped on our "desert storm" car with our American flag and took a victory lap...
[YOUTUBE]76WcxTB6-WI[/YOUTUBE]
I know people aren't going to like this post, but here goes.
Bin Laden, although he was a terrorist and caused so much grief to so many people, also had a family who presumably loved him no matter what his beliefs were.
I don't think killing him is going to stop terrorism or al quaida (sp?) and may in fact have the opposite effect.
I know he has become a symbol for terror across the world, but really, I don't think cheering in the street is an appropriate response. He was no doubt a cold blooded killer, but he was still a person.
Now that he's dead, what don't we show our humanity instead of becoming what we hate?
Let's see no direct attacks on Australia by Al Qaeda yah I see your point where you as an Australian can tell Americans that have been directly affected how to behave
[COLOR="White"]not fucking really[/COLOR]
[YOUTUBE]EWzLJfidPMs[/YOUTUBE]
Let's see no direct attacks on Australia by Al Qaeda yah I see your point where you as an Australian can tell Americans that have been directly affected how to behave
[COLOR="White"]not fucking really[/COLOR]
You don't think any Australians have been directly affected? You don't think the support our troops have given to your gives us a right to comment?
Our soldiers have spilled blood just the same colour as yours. So have our civilians. See the attacks in Bali for instance. A pub blown up which was THE place for Australians to drink when on holidays.
No, I don't accept your statement Nirvana. Not for one second. Especially since i have familiy members in the armed forces who've had to serve in Afghanistan and risk their lives.
How fucking rude to suggest that only Americans have a right to comment. Fuck that.
Oh, and in case you didn't notice, nowhere did I mention my post was about US reactions. There are similar reactions around the world. Get out of your bubble and take a look around.
terrorists are terrorists. they don't give a flying turd about humanity. no matter what country, color or type of person you are. they care about their extremist views and killing people to try and get their ideals across. they are cowards. they even blow up or attack their own. just because their own don't believe (in most cases) their beliefs of the koran. i'm not dishing out here anything that anyone doesn't know here, just trying to shed light on it is all or bring it back up to the surface. martyr my ass. i'm 40, i'm hemorrhagic apparently, need a walker, haven't ridden a go kart in 15 years, fly whenever the hell i can, even grounded (with a pilot that is current), being trained to run a biz by myself, and found out today that i just might buy someones successful biz (no not the track but has something to do with it) what do i know. point here is this: terrorism affects everyone no matter where they are in the world. even seeing something like a car bomb from my living room to kabul is disheartening. kids killed. parents killed. people killed. it's not right. they know it. everyone knows it. i love my job. i get to see kids smile, laugh, have a super moist time at the track. it kills me to see them in anguish. it kills me to see anyone in anguish. i love my fellow man. i, unlike terrorists, have a heart that will keep on feeling the way it does about them and my fellow man as most of us here do too. terrorists need to be dealt with in whatever manner necessary. fuck'em.
[/soapbox]
terrorists need to be dealt with in whatever manner necessary
You're right plth. I don't disagree that he had to be dealt with one way or another. I just don't like to see normally nice people so joyful about someone else's death. The same reaction is happening everywhere and I just don't get it. I can't be joyful about death that's all. Yes he needed to be brought down and if his death was the result then so be it, but fuck, you don't pop a cork over it.
I kind of agree Ali. To me there is something slightly distasteful about celebrating a death with such joy. I'm pleased that particular chapter has been concluded. I am glad he hasn't 'got away with it' in the end. But outpourings of joy seem strange.
That said, I think we also have to consider that some of the 'joy' is because of the sense of closure that his death brings. Lots of us have been affected by the War on terror. Lots of countries have been targeted by Al Quaeda and lost people and peace of mind to suicide bombers and the like. For you guys the big one was Bali, and for us the London train bombings.
But the World Trade Center was a slightly different beast. Partly because of the sheer scale of it, but also partly because it broke an age old paradigm of America as an uninvadeable country. To be attacked by a foreign enemy on their own soil must have been a shocking thing for Americans to face. That kind of thing cuts deep in the national psyche.
Just reading back my last post, and I realise it sounds a little patronising. But, I meant what i said about that sort of thing cutting into the national psyche. Attacks at home are not something that had hitherto featured heavily in the American experience, not until 9/11.
My own experience as a Brit is a little different. The threat of terrorist attack does not feel like a new thing for me, it just feels like a different (albeit more frightening) brand of something that already formed a part of my British experience. Watching news reports at the age of 12, that showed leading government ministers and the Prime Minister of the country exiting the shattered remains of their hotel after a terrorist bomb attack doesn't inspire any feelings of national invulnerability.
Apart from a smattering of years between the Good Friday agreement in '98 and the War on Terror after 9/11, bomb threats, and terror alerts have been a fairly normal undercurrent to life in Britain, for as long as I can remember. The tone of that undercurrent has changed. Many of the IRA attacks were intended to be damaging but not fatal, including the Warrington bombings in which several people were killed but which had apparently gone terribly wrong. The current crop of terrorists seem to go for maximum death toll and that makes them more frightening overall. But the idea that a bomb might go off in the shopping centre when you are doing your Christmas shopping was never far away whilst I was growing up, and has now merely been replaced with the fear that the train or bus will blow up on the way home.
Warrington, by the way, is a nondescript and unimportant northern town, not far from the nondescript and unimportant northern town in which I grew up. That was one of the terrifying things about the bomb scares: they really could happen anywhere.
When i was working as a shop assistant in a clothes store in Bolton, the shopping centre was evacuated several times due to bomb threats/scares, all of which fortunately proved false alarms. But that sort of thing etches itself into your sense of the world around you. As did travelling to work through the devasted remains of the main shopping centre in Manchester in the New Year after it had been hit - (the largest bomb attack in Britain since WW2, and caused over £400 million worth of damage).
None of these attacks had anywhere near the scale of Al Quaeda's attack on America, and I can only guess how such a large scale assault might impact on Britain's national psyche, but what it would not do is shatter a sense of national invulnerability, because we just don't have one to start with :p
I am a little disconcerted at the "celebration." To me, it's a sad ending to a horrible thing. I'm not rejoicing, but there must be some relief at the end of something evil.
I wonder how people felt when they got word of Hitler's suicide? I guess it wasn't a death heard 'round the world' for some time, the interwebz just being new and all. ;)
But more evil will take the place of the old evil. Always has and always will.
I know people aren't going to like this post, but here goes.
Bin Laden, although he was a terrorist and caused so much grief to so many people, also had a family who presumably loved him no matter what his beliefs were.
I thought his family had disowned him long before September 11th?
That must be the part of the family Bush was still friends with? The ones he flew out of the country though they MIGHT have some idea where we could have found him...then?
Dear Donald and Tea Party,
I am not dancing in the streets or celebrating a death that is a bit disconcerting to me. But Australia has never had an attack on their shores by Al Qaeda. There is no comparison for you not even Bali. It is not my place to say to anyone how they can behave and its not yours either.
When Hiro Hito died Australia did not send a representative so I think Australians must have a different way of receiving the death of a mass murderer and good for ya'll.
I thought his family had disowned him long before September 11th?
Maybe they did glatt. I'm not sure of that. My point was just that to some people his life had value, and not just the extremists.
I am not dancing in the streets or celebrating a death that is a bit disconcerting to me. But Australia has never had an attack on their shores by Al Qaeda. There is no comparison for you not even Bali. It is not my place to say to anyone how they can behave and its not yours either.
When Hiro Hito died Australia did not send a representative so I think Australians must have a different way of receiving the death of a mass murderer and good for ya'll.
What the hell is that supposed to mean? Are you taking cheap shots now or what? And why are you taking my comment so personally? It wasn't aimed at you or even at Americans in particular. There are plenty of people in Australia that're reacting in a way that I think is in bad taste too. It was my observation and how I felt about the death of the man. Am I not entitled to that opinion?
Now that he's dead, what don't we show our humanity instead of becoming what we hate?
You most certainly can have your own opinion. I was merely pointing out that your comment in no way matches some of the sentiment in your own country. Telling Americans to essentially "get over it" doesn't really fly, its only been 10 years since 9/11. Australians seem not to have gotten over WWll how long has that been??? Maybe you should start your humanitarian campaign in your own country. Just saying. . .
I did not even suggest that anyone should just 'get over it'. I didn't even suggest people shouldn't be glad. I simply pointed out that I think that rejoicing is inappropriate, and that is because of my very own personal ethical and moral standards concerning how I deal with death.
What are you talking about WW11 for? In what way are Australians being inhumane about WW11? I don't understand what you think the correlation is. Why are you trying to pick a fight with me over this? Are you still upset about our exchange in the beef thread?
I could accuse you of being anti-australian after the comments you've made here and in the other thread, but I think that'd be pretty pointless because that'd be giving you an out for what your real problem is.
eta: Also, as I clearly stated, my post was not directed at Americans or anyone else in particular.
I am not anti Australian, people are people and they deal with things differently. Saying how you feel is fine telling others how they should feel , not so much....
I have no problem with you either, only your comments on this we do not agree..
OK then. I'll put it like this especially for you.
I don't feel like dancing in the street because Bin Laden is dead. If I did do that, I would feel like a person devoid of compassion for human life.
In other news, here's what Rush had to say:
According to Limbaugh, Obama's success must be linked to former President George W. Bush.
"We need to never forget that President Obama deserves praise for continuing the policies established by George W. Bush which led to the learning, the acquisition of this intel that led us to the enlarged hut in Pakistan that led to the assassination of bin Laden last night," he declared.
"Thank God for President Obama. If he had not been there, who knows what would've happened."
:lol:
What a big fat idiot.
bin laden's brother died not too far from where i live. he owned an airport called Houston Gulf (aka: spaceland). well he apparently wasn't that good of a pilot cuz he stall/spun on final and augured in on final approach. i'd have to do some digging to find the ntsb report, but it'd be my guess he got into the all too familiar cross controlled stall from turning base to final where many approach to landing accidents happen. what happens is this: the pilot overshoots the runway centerline on base so as they are turning, for example, left to line up with the runway they are forcing the nose of the airplane to the left using way too much left rudder. then what happens is you have to input right aileron to compensate putting the plane in a dangerous situation. do it too much and the plane stalls with no warning. no stall warning horn, no buffet, no nothing. to recover from such a stall requires more than a 1000 ft so most that get into that situation die.
Wait. World War 11? That's twice this week. :)
You mean, if you turn hard with rudder without banking, both wings will lose lift?
Have you had any effect during your time here? Have you convinced even one person of the reasonableness of the right? I ask anyone who has been swayed to the right by UGs 'arguments' to step forth.
Anyone? Anyone?
You mean, if you turn hard with rudder without banking, both wings will lose lift?
no, what happens is this:
Because of the possibility of exceeding the airplane’s limitations, flaps should not be extended. While the gliding attitude and airspeed are being established, the airplane should be retrimmed. When the glide is stabilized, the airplane should be rolled into a medium-banked turn to simulate a final approach turn that would overshoot the centerline of the runway. During the turn, excessive rudder pressure should be applied in the direction of the turn but the bank held constant by applying opposite aileron pressure. At the same time, increased back-elevator pressure is required to keep the nose from lowering.
All of these control pressures should be increased until the airplane stalls. When the stall occurs, recovery is made by releasing the control pressures and increasing, power as necessary to recover.
In a cross-control stall, the airplane often stalls with little warning. The nose may pitch down, the inside wing may suddenly drop, and the airplane may continue to roll to an inverted position. This is usually the beginning of a spin. It is obvious that close to the ground is no place to allow this to happen
felt this could explain it better. from
hereSo this is why it's "cross control", because the pilot is forcing the various surfaces to fight each other's forces a little, and so at low speeds it loses lift and stalls.
So this is why it's "cross control", because the pilot is forcing the various surfaces to fight each other's forces a little, and so at low speeds it loses lift and stalls.
exactly.
this is boring as phuck to watch (for me anyway) but this guy does a pretty thorough explanation of the as he calls it, skidded stall (aka cross control stall). but anyway, prolly what killed the brother at houston gulf.
[YOUTUBE]PMhoPJYCvXA[/YOUTUBE]
Anyone? Anyone?
Not me. I've watched the news from the right as well as from the left ( I don't believe there IS such a thing as news from the middle) and the main difference I see is when the right talks about a story, they give their opinion and then back it up with rants and fear. The left, while they rant sometimes as well, they back it up with documentation and available facts.
Bin Laden, although he was a terrorist and caused so much grief to so many people, also had a family who presumably loved him no matter what his beliefs were.
I'm not chanting or dancing in the streets over his death. I don't get the point in that and I think those that are look a bit silly. But the idea that we should because someone loved him? Fuck that. Fuck that with a donkey dick.
He was a mass murdering piece of shit. His death was long overdue. In fact, I think after his death we should have wrapped his body in bacon and surrounded it by drooling dogs inside a display case. Then we should have let it tour the country before allowing anyone who lost someone on 9/11 to piss on it.
Someone loved him??? really? Someone probably thought Hitler was swell too but I'm damn sure there was a lot of justified celebration when he died.
OK then. I'll put it like this especially for you.
I don't feel like dancing in the street because Bin Laden is dead. If I did do that, I would feel like a person devoid of compassion for human life.
I will put this especially for you then, the difference here is you have compassion for one disturbed mass murdering individual, I will have compassion for my entire country. :thumb:
"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."
Martin Luther King Jr
"I knew right where to look for him because they keep forgetting to take my addy off muslim secrets quarterly."
BHO
A little further searching will show that that particular article is perhaps not quite factual.
It has been easy to confirm that this part is certainly a direct quote.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."
Do I need to continue?
OK, from
wiki
Ch. 4 : Love in action, Sct. 3
Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that. Hate multiplies hate, violence multiplies violence, and toughness multiplies toughness in a descending spiral of destruction. So when Jesus says "Love your enemies," he is setting forth a profound and ultimately inescapable admonition. ... The chain reaction of evil — hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars — must be broken, or we shall be plunged into the dark abyss of annihilation.
This is from the book
Strength To Love 1963Why the preoccupation with MLK quotes? Hasn't that guy been discredited enough? Isn't he the nutter that thought that whites and blacks were equal? er... nevermind.
haha...I just liked the quote when I saw it on someone's FB status. It just seems to be descriptive of the way I feel so I thought it might help people understand my perspective.
I probably should have known it'd be picked to pieces on this site, but I stand by my convictions in this matter, and that's about all I need to say. :)
I'm just yanking your chain. I respect your feelings on the matter. I may not feel the same way but that is what makes the world go round. If everyone felt the same way we'd be even more screwed than we are with everyone disagreeing.
I'm a history geek, so it just bugs me when quotes are falsified then spread around. It puts untrue words in other people's mouths, i.e. gossip.
:)
Gossip. I learned the origins of that word last week.
Well, whether he said it or not, I think he'd probably agree with it. :)
You're probably right, he championed non-violence. I just like sticking to what people actually said/did, not conjecture.
Fair enough. Me too. I wouldn't have posted it as a quote if I'd known it was a fake. I might get the book and check it out though. I do have a book with all MLK's speaches here. I might find the one that's supposedly the origins of the quote and see what it really says.
He was a smart guy, could use another like him.
It might be nice if he were to pop by someday and say "that is NOT what I meant!".
It might be nice if he were to pop by someday and say "that is NOT what I meant!".
I say the same thing regarding the Founding fathers and the 2nd amendment.
False quote Aliantha
*Ahem*
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/05/anatomy-of-a-fake-quotation/238257/
I don't know what "false quote" means. Maybe you meant to say "according to this source, MLK did not say the first sentence of the quote".
I think it's pretty clear what "false quote" means. I have yet to see any evidence that MLK said those quoted words. He probably used each and every word in that quote at some point in his life, but just not in that order, as far as I can tell.
I think it's pretty clear what "false quote" means. I have yet to see any evidence that MLK said those quoted words. He probably used each and every word in that quote at some point in his life, but just not in that order, as far as I can tell.
Unfortunately, he was taken from us before his time. If he hadn't used those words in that order before he died, he was bound to by the end of April 1968.
I've said loads of words thruout my life. I suppose, by this argument, that I've said some pretty fucking awesome things, too. I mean, I said all the words, I just didn't string them together in that way... :rolleyes:
I've said loads of words thruout my life. I suppose, by this argument, that I've said some pretty fucking awesome things, too. I mean, I said all the words, I just didn't string them together in that way... :rolleyes:
Some after-the-fact editing is all you need.
I found the chanting and all night singing a bit much, and noted that alot the crowd seemed very young. There was some anlaysis on NPR and they talked about how for young people, somoene who was under 12 say in 2001, Bin Laden was the Big Bad Bogeyman for large portion of their lives, so for him to be killed is huge in perspective.
My thoughts are summed up very well by what is apparently a hackneyed mis quote incorrectly attributed to Mark Twain, anyway,
"I have never wished anyone dead, but there are obituaries I have read with great deal of satisfaction"
also the new drink is The Bin Laden, two shots and a splash of water.
:thumb:
:haha:
:drunk:
[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR]
Beest, you probably did see a lot of that, living in a college town! Also, it's true, I remember being afraid of the cold war and some unknown russian threat, but there wasn't the likes of a Hitler or a bin Laden.
Nary a word on this campus. Different environment.
And I like the drink!
Is he DEAD or is he Dead? :lol:
Is he DEAD or is he Dead? :lol:
Bin Laden is deAD
He's deaD as...dEad.
--Lance
WASHINGTON - CIA Director Leon Panetta said Tuesday evening that he feels the Obama administration will ultimately release to the public the photographs of Osama bin Laden taken after the al-Qaida leader was killed by U.S. forces at his compound in Pakistan, but that "the White House makes that final decision."
"I mean, I think it will be," Panetta said when asked whether he thought the photos would eventually be released.
apparently the photo going around now is.....fake
oh, and love the drink beest!
It might be nice if he were to pop by someday and say "that is NOT what I meant!".
I say the same thing regarding the Founding fathers and the 2nd amendment.
or Jesus.
Or Mohammed.
etc etc.
oh, and love the drink beest!
I'll have a double. Tap.
Me and J were talking about this today. Both of us reached the same conclusion: dancing in the streets and jubiliation seems off-colour, but both of us are of the opinion that if anybody deserved to die it was Osama Bin Laden. And for Americans in particular, this represented far more than the death of a man, it was the closure needed for a nation who'd been hit in a way they'd never been hit before.
I like that the decision was made to go for a ground assault rather than a missile. That was a clever move. Quite aside from the possibility that they might have been able to take the bastard alive, the death toll was incredibly low for such a high-stakes hit.
How different things might have looked if they'd gone for a missile strike and killed a dozen civilians in the process.
Hell of a brave decision though. One of those missions that could either go well and bring the praises of the whole world...or go badly and bring the relationship between the US and Pakistan to the brink.
I have to admit, much as I like Obama, this was way more decisive than I would have imagined him being.
How different things might have looked if they'd gone for a missile strike and killed a dozen civilians in the process.
Yeah, it would have looked like just another week in Pakistan.
I have to admit, much as I like Obama, this was way more decisive than I would have imagined him being.
It's one of the few areas that he's been ABLE to be as decisive as he would like to be.
Good point. Your legislative system seems designed to prevent actual decision making by the President :p
Looks like Obama is NOT going to release the photos/video of OBL/UBL's body.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110504/ap_on_re_us/us_bin_laden
I could care either way. Although I'm a conservative Republican, I congratulate Obama for making the tough decision to go boots on the ground. And I'm certainly not one who won't believe he's dead just because I don't see a photo. Even those who doubt it can claim the photo is a fake anyway. :tinfoil:
Newspaper this morning says bin Laden was unarmed.
True dat. Even if they showed the photos, there'd be nutters queuing up to tell us they're faked.
I was pleased by the speed with which the rumours of him using his wife as a human shield were dealt with.
We don't need to make up bullshit to show what a twat he was.
I am against the release of said photo. It serves no purpose.
Newspaper this morning says bin Laden was unarmed.
It's very difficult to carry around 4 jumbo jets.
it's six to one / half dozen the other. i personally don't care if i see or don't see them. he's kaput. and that's what i care about.
Didn't we have to look at Saddam's cold dead face? :confused:
It wasn't all shot to bits, though
Wasn't it kind of puffy and...dead-looking?
It wasn't all shot to bits, though
I guess they could put a little bandaid over his owey.
Newspaper this morning says bin Laden was unarmed.
I guess that'll teach him to bring a forehead to a gunfight.
I guess they could put a little bandaid over his owey.
Isn't Owey the name of the guy who is taking his place in Al Quaida?
Wasn't it kind of puffy and...dead-looking?
welllll with a little base, some mascara, eye liner perhaps a little blush we can make him look fresh as a daisy!
I've heard so many things over the past few days I don't know what to believe.
1. He was shot twice in the head.
2. He was shot in the cheek.
3. He was shot above the left eye.
4. He was shot once in the head and once in the chest.
All that matters is that he's dead. "It's a Sicilian message. It means Osama bin Laden sleeps with the fishes".
And whether or not he was armed, to me, is irrelevant. He needed to die.
~snip~
And whether or not he was armed, to me, is irrelevant. He needed to die.
As I said...it's very difficult to carry around 4 jumbo jets.
:rolleyes:
My doggie is happy that Bin laden is dead...but, then again, Bid laden DID shoot his paw...
:lol:
It's one of the few areas that he's been ABLE to be as decisive as he would like to be.
I wonder if the repubicans will be critical of this in the way they've been critical of our Libyan activities. "Obama should have consulted congress" in best sad sack voice
Isn't Owey the name of the guy who is taking his place in Al Quaida?
Owey Bin Daid
Owey? With a fucking gun, that's owey!
Nah, even the pubes can't spin this one their way. Except all the crap from LimpBalls and ParaSailin' about how lucky we are the Bushie paved the way. :lol:
Newspaper this morning says bin Laden was unarmed.
So were most of the people in the twin towers
So were most of the people in the twin towers
Zing!Sigh. My subtle talents, so wasted.
Hey, you know what? It's really hard to carry around 4 jumbo jets.
Ba DUM dum.
:lol2:
I've heard so many things over the past few days I don't know what to believe.
1. He was shot twice in the head.
2. He was shot in the cheek.
3. He was shot above the left eye.
4. He was shot once in the head and once in the chest.
...
He had a big heed.
Heed his words. He is Jesus, you know.
Sigh. My subtle talents, so wasted.
Hey, you know what? It's really hard to carry around 4 jumbo jets.
Ba DUM dum.
:lol2:
ain't it the truth, sister.
What about my dog/paw joke?
Nuttin'!
ain't it the truth, sister.
What about my dog/paw joke?
Nuttin'!
Puh. :right:
I liked your paw joke. ;)
Speaking personally, as a Republican, I think that the fewer people who knew about this operation, the better. Too many cooks spoil the broth as it were.
The biggest controversy I've heard about the whole thing was what Rep. Peter King said. That was that some of the information that got the ball rolling toward the courier who eventually led us to bin Laden was obtained from waterboarding terror suspects (KSM in particular). I will go on record as saying I have absolutely no problem with "enhanced interrogation techniques" when it comes to these types of people. It's quite a bit less lethal than their technique of beheading.
Speaking personally, as a Republican, I think that the fewer people who knew about this operation, the better. Too many cooks spoil the broth as it were.
The biggest controversy I've heard about the whole thing was what Rep. Peter King said. That was that some of the information that got the ball rolling toward the courier who eventually led us to bin Laden was obtained from waterboarding terror suspects (KSM in particular). I will go on record as saying I have absolutely no problem with "enhanced interrogation techniques" when it comes to these types of people. It's quite a bit less lethal than their technique of beheading.
Ooooooh! you crazy right-winger! How dare you state the obvious! Off with your head!
Ooooooh! you crazy right-winger! How dare you state the obvious! Time for your waterboarding!
FIFY ;)
I found the chanting and all night singing a bit much, and noted that alot the crowd seemed very young. There was some anlaysis on NPR and they talked about how for young people, somoene who was under 12 say in 2001, Bin Laden was the Big Bad Bogeyman for large portion of their lives, so for him to be killed is huge in perspective.
My thoughts are summed up very well by what is apparently a hackneyed mis quote incorrectly attributed to Mark Twain, anyway,
"I have never wished anyone dead, but there are obituaries I have read with great deal of satisfaction"
also the new drink is The Bin Laden, two shots and a splash of water.
There is a very interesting article on the USA Today website discussing what his death means to those of my generation. Worth the read. I was about 14 at the time of 9/11, so my peers and I have that burned into our memories as a sudden, severe wake-up call to the way the world truly is. And now a long, dark chapter of our lives has been ended.
And now a long, dark chapter of our lives has been ended.
I doubt anything will change soon.
bin Laden's last FaceBook update:
Newspaper this morning says bin Laden was unarmed.
What a shame.
Who knows, its a complicated situation so we'll have to wait and see. The intel gathered from his place could prove very valuable. Indications are that we recovered a huge amount, which even if only 25% of it is actionable will still put us significantly ahead of where we were.
Speaking personally, as a Republican, I think that the fewer people who knew about this operation, the better. Too many cooks spoil the broth as it were.
The biggest controversy I've heard about the whole thing was what Rep. Peter King said. That was that some of the information that got the ball rolling toward the courier who eventually led us to bin Laden was obtained from waterboarding terror suspects (KSM in particular). I will go on record as saying I have absolutely no problem with "enhanced interrogation techniques" when it comes to these types of people. It's quite a bit less lethal than their technique of beheading.
If that is what you want your country to be, far be it from me to get in the way.
bin Laden's last FaceBook update:
I'm waiting for Trump to demand the long form death certificate.
Dear Donald and Tea Party,
the new drink is The Bin Laden, two shots and a splash of water.
These: :lol2:
And I think it's a really good point about him being the bogeyman for the young adults of today.
Incidentally:
And if all that doesn’t convince the Cheney family, father and daughter, try Ethics 101. The ends do not justify the means.
Mohammed did not reveal the names while being subjected to the simulated drowning technique known as waterboarding, former officials said. He identified them many months later under standard interrogation, they said, leaving it once again up for debate as to whether the harsh technique was a valuable tool or an unnecessarily violent tactic.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/on-f...1H9mF_blog.htmlObama is really not dead.
I hope you all realize this is nothing more than ruse by Obama to get re-elected and they photoshoped everything. You fools believed him.
Obama is really not dead.
I hope you all realize this is nothing more than ruse by Obama to get re-elected and they photoshoped everything. You fools believed him.
Obama killed himself to get re-elected? Oh NOES. :eek:
Obama killed himself to get re-elected? Oh NOES. :eek:
Cool! I will vote for him! I mean over obamy!
Obama is really not dead.
He wasn't as of ten minutes ago. He is still the president of the United States.
He wasn't as of ten minutes ago. He is still the president of the United States.
No, Osama is now in charge. You must obey.
Merc's been at the wacky baccy.
Merc's been at the wacky baccy.
Why do you think they call it 'dope' -?
The situation room gets crazy after the confirmation:
Dude, what? we need to get out a magnifying glass to see that!
Yeah, I've gotta say, it's all just blur to me.
[old fart]Let me get my glasses sonny...[/old fart]
isn't that the same as
this only minus the character names?
They are all wearing the Princess Beatrice hat :lol: Yah I can see mini
ahhh now that you mention it!
Where do I get one???!!?!
Or can I just get a piece of Pippa?
If that is what you want your country to be, far be it from me to get in the way.
What I WANT is the ability to use unconventional methods to break these people and have them give up information which can potentially save thousands of lives!
I don't consider the techniques that I have heard used (making someone stand for many hours at a time, sleep deprivation or threatening their families with death) torture in the classic sense. And while waterboarding (simulated drowning) may be terrifying to the person on the receiving end, these methods are designed to not cause permanent physical injury. These methods are MAINLY psychological in nature.
Are you saying that you would be against these methods being used if they stopped another 9-11 here or in another country?
Sleep deprivation is not mainly psychological in nature. It can cause serious physiological damage.
Incidentally:
And if all that doesn’t convince the Cheney family, father and daughter, try Ethics 101. The ends do not justify the means.
Mohammed did not reveal the names while being subjected to the simulated drowning technique known as waterboarding, former officials said. He identified them many months later under standard interrogation, they said, leaving it once again up for debate as to whether the harsh technique was a valuable tool or an unnecessarily violent tactic.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/on-f...1H9mF_blog.html
And who is to say that he WOULD have given up the names using on standard interrogation methods? :eyebrow:
Sleep deprivation is not mainly psychological in nature. It can cause serious physiological damage.
As if someone who is willing to strap a bomb to themselves and blow themselves up to kill you and I isn't already seriously psychologically damaged?
Misread that. I see you said physiological. My opinion remains. If it provides information which prevents you or I from getting killed, I'm good with it. It's a far cry from shoving bamboo shoots under their fingernails, cutting off fingers or burning them with red hot knife blades. Again, we're not dealing with people with the same thought process as you and I. Your chances of getting information from them using standard techniques (especially high value detainees) are almost nil.
One final addition is that the physiological effects of sleep deprivation appear to be from LONG term deprivation...not short term.
From what i read (there's a link somewhere around here) the information was not given up during that 'enhanced' interrogation. It was given up much later under normal interrogation techniques.
As to whether or not it's worth it if it prevents more terrorist attacks, that relies rather heavily on the idea that the person being tortured has any information to give up. I have serious doubts as to the terrorist credentials of most of the people who passed through Guantanamo's gates. Several of my countrymen were captured and tortured, sorry no interrogated with the above methods, seemingly on very little (read no) evidence.
I highly doubt that every detainee in Gitmo was waterboarded...only those deemed to likely have valuable information. No justice system is perfect. I'm sure there are people in Gitmo who shouldn't be, but that is true of any prison anywhere is the world.
I have to believe Rep. King when he says that KSM revealed information on the courier who ultimately led us to bin Laden's doorstep. And I'm fine with that. We agree to disagree. It's all good.
I think the difference between Gitmo and 'any prison anywhere in the world' is that most of those in other prisons have been convicted of a crime.
Agreed, but you can't lump enemy combatants in the same category as civilian criminals. We can't arrest them, have them pay bail and promise to show up for court. Anyone in Gitmo is not there for mugging an old lady or shoplifting...they have direct or indirect ties to terrorism.
Some of them weren't combatants. Their connection to terrorism may just be geographical proximity to the areas where battles were fought.
This morning on MSNBC they reported that the three men who were killed
were NOT armed.
Then this from The WSJ -
The Pakistani official said bin Laden's 12-year-old daughter, who is among those in Pakistani custody,
told authorities the Americans took two people when they left, including bin Laden.
U.S. officials say bin Laden's body was the only one removed from the scene.
From armed, to human shields, to some undefined resistance, to this...
I am really confused as to why any info was given in the first place and why the story from the Admin keeps changing.
If it provides information which prevents you or I from getting killed, I'm good with it.
The CIA has a tip that your mom has information that will prevent you or me from getting killed. The information might not be accurate, but they have to waterboard her, just to make sure.
A Q-tip? My mom always has Q-tips.
The CIA has a tip that your mom has information that will prevent you or me from getting killed. The information might not be accurate, but they have to waterboard her, just to make sure.
Oh please, you act like they just grab random people off the street and waterboard them to see if they know anything. While I am not saying that a few innocent people may have been caught up in it, the vast majority are there for a reason. And by the way, my Mom doesn't travel to the middle-east or hang around known or suspected terrorists so I think she's safe. I'll be sure to ask her on Sunday when I see her for Mother's Day...just to be sure. ;)
A Q-tip? My mom always has Q-tips.
Just don't stick them in your ear...:)
[COLOR="Silver"]like no one does that:rolleyes:[/COLOR]
And who is to say that he WOULD have given up the names using on standard interrogation methods?
How many times must examples be repeated before learning starts? Greatest intelligence that resulted in complete destruction of entire terrorist networks meant, first, keeping Americans away (because Americans and Nazis torture). And second, taking the prisoner out even for fine dinners.
Go back and read the so many descriptions of how terrorist networks were so successfully destroyed. No torture. Search the Cellar for the term Jemaah Islamiya.
Or from the Washington Post entitled "Fort Hunt's Quiet Men Break Silence on WWII
Interrogators Fought 'Battle of Wits'":
For six decades, they held their silence.
The group of World War II veterans kept a military code and the decorum of their generation, telling virtually no one of their top-secret work interrogating Nazi prisoners of war at Fort Hunt.
When about two dozen veterans got together yesterday for the first time since the 1940s, many of the proud men lamented the chasm between the way they conducted interrogations during the war and the harsh measures used today in questioning terrorism suspects.
Back then, they and their commanders wrestled with the morality of bugging prisoners' cells with listening devices. They felt bad about censoring letters. They took prisoners out for steak dinners to soften them up. They played games with them.
"We got more information out of a German general with a game of chess or Ping-Pong than they do today, with their torture," said Henry Kolm, 90, an MIT physicist who had been assigned to play chess in Germany with Hitler's deputy, Rudolf Hess. ...
Several of the veterans, all men in their 80s and 90s, denounced the controversial techniques. And when the time came for them to accept honors from the Army's Freedom Team Salute, one veteran refused, citing his opposition to the war in Iraq and procedures that have been used at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba.
"I feel like the military is using us to say, 'We did spooky stuff then, so it's okay to do it now,' " said Arno Mayer, 81, a professor of European history at Princeton University.
When Peter Weiss, 82, went up to receive his award, he commandeered the microphone and gave his piece.
"I am deeply honored to be here, but I want to make it clear that my presence here is not in support of the current war," said Weiss, chairman of the Lawyers' Committee on Nuclear Policy and a human rights and trademark lawyer in New York City.
The veterans of P.O. Box 1142, a top-secret installation in Fairfax County that went only by its postal code name, were brought back to Fort Hunt by park rangers who are piecing together a portrait of what happened there during the war.
Nearly 4,000 prisoners of war, most of them German scientists and submariners, were brought in for questioning for days, even weeks, before their presence was reported to the Red Cross, a process that did not comply with the Geneva Conventions. Many of the interrogators were refugees from the Third Reich.
"We did it with a certain amount of respect and justice," said John Gunther Dean, 81, who became a career Foreign Service officer and ambassador to Denmark.
The interrogators had standards that remain a source of pride and honor.
"During the many interrogations, I never laid hands on anyone," said George Frenkel, 87, of Kensington. "We extracted information in a battle of the wits. I'm proud to say I never compromised my humanity."
Exactly what went on behind the barbed-wire fences of Fort Hunt has been a mystery that has lured amateur historians and curious neighbors for decades.
During the war, nearby residents watched buses with darkened windows roar toward the fort day and night. They couldn't have imagined that groundbreaking secrets in rocketry, microwave technology and submarine tactics were being peeled apart right on the grounds that are now a popular picnic area where moonbounces mushroom every weekend.
When Vincent Santucci arrived at the National Park Service's George Washington Memorial Parkway office as chief ranger four years ago, he asked his cultural resource specialist, Brandon Bies, to do some research so they could post signs throughout the park, explaining its history and giving it a bit more dignity.
That assignment changed dramatically when ranger Dana Dierkes was leading a tour of the park one day and someone told her about a rumored Fort Hunt veteran.
It was Fred Michel, who worked in engineering in Alexandria for 65 years, never telling his neighbors that he once faced off with prisoners and pried wartime secrets from them.
Michel directed them to other vets, and they remembered others.
Bies went from being a ranger researching mountains of topics in stacks of papers to flying across the country, camera and klieg lights in tow, to document the fading memories of veterans.
He, Santucci and others have spent hours trying to sharpen the focus of gauzy memories, coaxing complex details from men who swore on their generation's honor to never speak of the work they did at P.O. Box 1142. ...
By gathering at Fort Hunt yesterday, the quiet men could be saluted for the work they did so long ago.
Torture works only because those who 'feel' therefore know it must work. The term junk science reasoning applies.
Because he was tortured, investigators had to spend the next ten years sorting through every word to find the only word that was truthful. That is what torture does. Mask information that could be obtained without torture into reams of lies and myths.
In but a year (long after the WTC came down and long before bin Laden was finally found), the other terrorist network was completely destroyed. Because they did not torture anyone. They also used fine dinners to extract far more useful information.
Just don't stick them in your ear...:)
[COLOR="Silver"]like no one does that:rolleyes:[/COLOR]
Eargasm! :p:
Eargasm! :p:
so earwax is essentially the cum of the ear?? :rolleyes:
A bigger version of that Princess's hat picture.
I'm actually really impressed with this. Whoever did this took the time to collect several different pictures of the hat so they could put it correctly on everyone's head, according to the angle in relation to the camera.
Ali, I thought you would love this video. Not everyone is dancing in the streets, that's for sure. This kid looks like a downright noodge! As I mentioned yesterday, I've heard nary a word on this campus. Takes all kinds. ;)
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/offbeat/2011/05/04/moos.failed.chant.cnn?hpt=T2I got a video about possible rail attacks on the anniversary of 9/11. Not sure if that's what you were directing me to.
What I WANT is the ability to use unconventional methods to break these people and have them give up information which can potentially save thousands of lives!
I don't consider the techniques that I have heard used (making someone stand for many hours at a time, sleep deprivation or threatening their families with death) torture in the classic sense. And while waterboarding (simulated drowning) may be terrifying to the person on the receiving end, these methods are designed to not cause permanent physical injury. These methods are MAINLY psychological in nature.
Are you saying that you would be against these methods being used if they stopped another 9-11 here or in another country?
Yes. Torture is inexcusable. Any civilization that would tolerate it is unworthy of the name. There are some prices for safety that are simply too high...Not because of what torture does to your enemy, but because of what it does to you.
It is impossible to both torture and to be the "good guy". You have to choose.
Agreed, but you can't lump enemy combatants in the same category as civilian criminals. We can't arrest them, have them pay bail and promise to show up for court. Anyone in Gitmo is not there for mugging an old lady or shoplifting...they have direct or indirect ties to terrorism.
People are remanded without bail all the time. They still get trials.
It is impossible to both torture and to be the "good guy". You have to choose.
Some of us disagree with that on a theoretical level. Unfortunately most of us don't trust our government or "deciders" any further than we can throw them so... guess we're all screwed.
Yes. Torture is inexcusable. Any civilization that would tolerate it is unworthy of the name. There are some prices for safety that are simply too high...Not because of what torture does to your enemy, but because of what it does to you.
It is impossible to both torture and to be the "good guy". You have to choose.
Well said.
Ditto RE: DanaC RE: Well said, Uday.
I think Bob Dylan said "Ya gotta serve somebody..."
Some of us disagree with that on a theoretical level. Unfortunately most of us don't trust our government or "deciders" any further than we can throw them so... guess we're all screwed.
You forfeit the privilage to complain when our citizens are tortured up to and including the "theoretical level" of torture that you choose to be acceptable for our enemy. If you think waterboarding an AQ operative is acceptable, you can't complain when dmg's mom or General Petraeus is waterboarded.
Let me, once again, remind you of what happens when radical Islamists are finished interrogating you...
Waterboarding and sleep deprivation don't seem so bad now, do they?
I don't see how that is a valid point dmg? Here is a good article that I feel lays down some very good points against torture.
In fact, the information about the existence of a courier working for bin Laden was provided by several detainees, not just waterboarded al Qaeda operatives Kalid Sheikh Mohammed and Abu Faraj al-Libi -- we had one detainee in Iraq who provided information about a courier in 2006. The key pieces of information, however, were the courier's real name and location. His family name was first uncovered by CIA assets in Pakistan through other sources. The NSA subsequently figured out his full real name and location from an intercepted phone call. Waterboarding had nothing to do with it.
........
Understanding these cultural nuances is just one critical skill interrogators must have to be effective. The other is an understanding of the social science behind interrogations, which tells us that torture has an extremely negative effect on memory. An interrogator needs timely and accurate intelligence information, not just made-up babble.
What torture has proven is exactly what experienced interrogators have said all along: First, when tortured, detainees will give only the minimum amount of information necessary to stop the pain. No interrogator should ever be hoping to extract the least amount of information. Second, under coercion, detainees give misleading information that wastes time and resources -- a false nickname, for example. Finally, it's impossible to know what information the detainee would have disclosed under non-coercive interrogations.
.....
the fact that torture handed al Qaeda its No. 1 recruiting tool, a fact confirmed by the U.S. Department of Defense's interrogators in Iraq who questioned foreign fighters about why they had come there to fight. (I have first-hand knowledge of this information because I oversaw many of these interrogations and was briefed on the aggregate results.) In addition, future detainees will be unwilling to cooperate from the onset of an interrogation because they view all Americans as torturers. I heard this repeatedly in Iraq, where some detainees accused us of being the same as the guards at Abu Ghraib.
The more you think about, the less sense torture makes. U.S. allies will become unwilling to conduct joint operations if they are concerned about how detainees will be treated in U.S. custody (an argument made by the 9/11 Commission, among others). And future enemies will use our actions as justification to torture American captives. Torture also lowers our ethical standards to those of our enemies, an ugly shift that spreads like a virus throughout the Armed Services; witness the abuses of Abu Ghraib or the recent murders of civilians in Afghanistan.
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/05/04/tortured_logic?page=0,0Let me, once again, remind you of what happens when radical Islamists are finished interrogating you...
Waterboarding and sleep deprivation don't seem so bad now, do they?
When you compare it to what the dredges of humanity do, hacking off hands and feet don't seem so bad, either, now do they?
We're supposed to be the good guys. We're not supposed to torture. That's what makes the bad guys bad.
From an article in The Washington Post titled "How a Detainee Became an Asset"...
"These scenes provide previously unpublicized details about the transformation of the man known to U.S. officials as KSM from an avowed and truculent enemy of the United States into what the CIA called its "preeminent source" on al-Qaeda. This reversal occurred after Mohammed was subjected to simulated drowning and prolonged sleep deprivation, among other harsh interrogation techniques. "
"KSM, an accomplished resistor, provided only a few intelligence reports
prior to the use of the waterboard, and analysis of that information revealed that much of it was outdated, inaccurate or incomplete," according to newly unclassified portions of a 2004 report by the CIA's then-inspector general released Monday by the Justice Department."
Link to the entire artcle:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/28/AR2009082803874.html?hpid=topnews&sid=ST2009082804015From an article in The Washington Post titled "How a Detainee Became an Asset"...
Information was so good that it took almost ten years to understand it? Of course not. Posted was a half story. Reality was so buried in myths and lies as to be all but useless. It took almost ten years and tens of millions of dollars to separate reality from the lies. Meanwhile, those who did not use torture had truth in less than one year - often in less than one month. Fine dinners more effective at extracting truths. A reality that cannot be understood when feelings replace facts and experience.
Zero reasons prove nothing useful from torture. Torture only muddies the waters. Torture makes finding truth nearly impossible. It took almost ten years to finally filter out reality because some idiot used torture.
Fine dinners do more to extract the truth. But that contradicts what a TV show called "24" taught our current flock of 'experts'.
Let me, once again, remind you of what happens when radical Islamists are finished interrogating you...
Waterboarding and sleep deprivation don't seem so bad now, do they?
Yes. The bad actions of fanatics do not excuse anyone else's bad actions. Also, are you certain you wish to base your moral code by relating it to the actions of criminals?
Yes. The bad actions of fanatics do not excuse anyone else's bad actions. Also, are you certain you wish to base your moral code by relating it to the actions of criminals?
That's part of the whole problem...you view them as criminals. They are not criminals, they are TERRORISTS. The guy who steals your car is a criminal. The guy who flies planes into buildings killing thousands is a terrorist. No wonder some of you want them tired in "criminal" courts as opposed to military tribunals.
I won't change your mind and you won't change mine, so we will agree to disagree on this one.
Hey, at least I give Obama props for getting the guy. That's something. :D
Information was so good that it took almost ten years to understand it? Of course not. Posted was a half story. Reality was so buried in myths and lies as to be all but useless. It took almost ten years and tens of millions of dollars to separate reality from the lies. Meanwhile, those who did not use torture had truth in less than one year - often in less than one month. Fine dinners more effective at extracting truths. A reality that cannot be understood when feelings replace facts and experience.
Zero reasons prove nothing useful from torture. Torture only muddies the waters. Torture makes finding truth nearly impossible. It took almost ten years to finally filter out reality because some idiot used torture.
Fine dinners do more to extract the truth. But that contradicts what a TV show called "24" taught our current flock of 'experts'.
Fine dining? Will there be candlelight? Soft music? Black tie? That has to be one of the funniest (and most ridiculous) things I have ever heard. Sure, it might have worked in WWII, but I'm sure most of those prisoners would have rathered live. Those we are battling today would rather die. You are dealing with an entirely different mentality.
And I have never watched 24.
There is a wealth of evidence to suggest that torture is the least effective way of gathering information. The information gathered under toture is the minimum needed to stop the pain; the informant is not clear headed and therefore the information is prone to inaccuracy; prisoners who believe themselves beloved of God become more entrenched and unwilling.
'Enhanced interrogation' has been used in some instances, but the useful information gathered from prisoners has generally been through theuse of ordinary interrogation techniques. Added to that there are several prominent cases of individuals who have been subjected to normal interrogation techniques actually changing their minds and begun to work for their captors, against their former groups. Several such figures have become active in the fight against extremism within universities and the like, performing outreach with youths who are believed to be vulnerable to extremist propoganda.
Now, there may be odd cases where information given up during waterboarding or sleep deprivation turns out to be genuine and useful. But there is no way to know whether they'd have given more information through ordinary techniques. There is good evidence however to suggest that clever interrogators get more and better information than brutal interrogators.
So, whilst waterboarding may well get you a name, a long and well-crafted standard interrogation may well get you more. And has the added benefit of possibly breaking through the brainwashing and turning one of them. Then you really do have a useful informant.
Quite aside from the moral dimension, it is the least effective way of information gathering.
Originally posted by General Stall
Words are the weapons of women folk.
Designer drugs are the way to go: better informants through modern chemistry!
Wait...what? Bin Laden is dead? When the hell did this happen? :confused:
No, the Sontarans.
(sorry. Couldn't help that pun. They're a villain in Who)
I can't resist puns. When I googled Sonatrans I saw it was a Dr Who thing...hence my "the who?"
:)
ahhhhh
You outpunned me.
I feel I have shamed my nation.
It's not your fault. My mom got me
this book when I was in HS. ;)
Ahahahah. Ok. Well, I have no such formal punning in my edumacation. Unless you count being in a British school as such.
My cronies and I would sit at lunch and make puns out of everything on our trays.
I should be an honorary Brit: I do the crosswords AND the puns. ;)
And we all know you're positively accomplished when it comes to smut.
Information was so good that it took almost ten years to understand it? Of course not. Posted was a half story. Reality was so buried in myths and lies as to be all but useless. It took almost ten years and tens of millions of dollars to separate reality from the lies. Meanwhile, those who did not use torture had truth in less than one year - often in less than one month. Fine dinners more effective at extracting truths. A reality that cannot be understood when feelings replace facts and experience.
Zero reasons prove nothing useful from torture. Torture only muddies the waters. Torture makes finding truth nearly impossible. It took almost ten years to finally filter out reality because some idiot used torture.
Fine dinners do more to extract the truth. But that contradicts what a TV show called "24" taught our current flock of 'experts'.
Curious how many interrogations you have conducted on suspected terrorists? Is the merely an opinion or based upon actual experience?
I can't resist puns. When I googled Sonatrans I saw it was a Dr Who thing...hence my "the who?"
:)
Dr Who? Isn't he a Dr Seuss character? I read "Horton Hears a Who" to Addie recently
He's not dead, he's just pining for the Hindu Kushes
They've finally released a photo that proves he is deader n' dead.
That's actually the grave of the guy who threw a shoe at W.
They've finally released a photo that proves he is deader n' dead.
That's invisible Jeebus after his leg was amputated.
Nah. It's mirrorworld Jebus.
Nope. Jesus took a quick swim in my basement.
He forgot his shoe.
Information was so good that it took almost ten years to understand it? Of course not. Posted was a half story. Reality was so buried in myths and lies as to be all but useless. It took almost ten years and tens of millions of dollars to separate reality from the lies. Meanwhile, those who did not use torture had truth in less than one year - often in less than one month. Fine dinners more effective at extracting truths. A reality that cannot be understood when feelings replace facts and experience.
Tw, your deepseated and crazy hatred for America -- and by extension every living soul of mankind -- was never more clear than it is now. You don't want us to win.
Well, that's the non-human viewpoint.
As a human, I desire and require America to win, and you are a loathesome leftist.
Very seldom do I resort to this kind of language -- but for these things: damn you and damn your parents also. They could have raised something other than a fascist-sympathizing über-bitch, couldn't they have? But what do we get? -- you, as you presently are.
So, DanaC: explain, then, how inaccurately we hit Mr Bin Laden. Using, I understand, information. Spoken information.
Honestly, girl. When you follow a bad religion, stupid things come out of your mouth and your keyboard. I am very glad I am not so very like you in my thoughts and in my values. It saves me from fatuity.
But enough: the man hid. He manifestly had government help doing so. There's a fragmented and factionated government in Pakistan. He wasn't alone where he hid, either. Somebody was being, shall we say, accommodating. But the old boy's luck ran out, and in the end, the forces of good got him.
Urbane Guerilla. Do you want DanaC or I to explain Chapter 3 of Thomas Barnett's book to you? With so many vicious personal attacks (that for some reason are tolerated when others have been banned for less), it is not clear who you are asking for help.
Wolf needs a new job. Maybe she can help?
...Somebody was being, shall we say, accommodating. But the old boy's luck ran out, and in the end, the forces of good got him.
Perhaps it was GWB's extra assist. It was only fair after all GW did to help OBL's family get out of the country right after 9/11. So why not help HIM to hide and then go on record as saying he didn't give much thought to him at all.
