Is using proper titles in social situations pretentious?
In
today's paper, there was a fluff column about doctors who insist on using their proper title even in social situations.
I'm friends with a doctor, and I call her by her first name in social situations. When I'm visiting a doctor, I probably call them Dr. So And So, but usually I don't address them by name because they are the only other one in the room, and if I'm talking, it must be to them.
In this column, they had this amusing bit:
“A physician is always addressed as Dr. so-and-so,” wrote Margaret S. Choa, MD. “It’s the proper title. Always. In any situation: business or social situations.”
Dr. Choa said that she was raised in the Chinese culture, a culture based on respect, where even siblings are identified by their respective places in the hierarchy. Wrote Dr. Choa: “Americans as a general rule do not respect titles because everyone is supposed to be equal. Ha! Inferior people are the only ones who want to be equal to superior ones.”
So my question is, should doctors be addressed with their proper title in social situations? Have they earned that courtesy after going through the long and difficult process of becoming a doctor? Or do we all put our pants on one leg at a time, and they should just be called Mr. or Mrs. So And So?
U.N. Representative: So, Mr. Evil...
Dr. Evil: It's Dr. Evil, I didn't spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called "mister," thank you very much.
In a professional setting, I can them Dr., if they let me know that they are a dr. If I only know them socially, I call them by their first name.
The ones who correct you if you don't call them Dr. are usually not someone I would socialize with, anyway.
We make a big deal out of the title "Professor" for our undergrads, but our grad students call most of us by first name. It signals the transition from student to colleague.
In social settings, anybody who insists on a formal title is an ass.
Please call me Generallissimo Doctor Major Poobah Infinite Monkey. kthx.
I see this as an issue of rank and self importance. the AMA is essentially an exclusive guild. Had the trades in this country kept up with guilds, there'd be no DIY shops and doctors would address tradesmen as Master and Journeyman.
I know I am an equal in every regard to any doctor in my field of expertise. In my mind I am a peer if not a colleague. I usually call docs by thir first name unless they are much older than, in which case I call them Mr. (Just kidding)
“A physician is always addressed as Dr. so-and-so,” wrote Margaret S. Choa, MD. “It’s the proper title. Always. In any situation: business or social situations.”
I suspect that her idea of a "social situation" is a formal cocktail party thrown by some rich dude who barely knows half his guests. If she makes the other moms at the soccer game call her "Dr. Choa"... well then I'd imagine it's not an issue, since they won't actually talk to her.
I just Googled her. She's older. So I can understand if she's Chinese and an older generation, she's going to have different attitudes. For what it's worth, I never heard of the medical school she attended. I wouldn't be bragging about being superior if I went to medical school in the tropics.
It's Doctor Evil, I didn't spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called "mister," thank you very much.
I've met people for whom what they do for a living IS who they are. It's especially true of those who have forsaken other relationships in their devotion to a profession. If they want to be called by their title, I don't begrudge them that.
Yet for others, I may whimsically combine names and titles like ... glattiator!
I wonder if sex counts as a social situation?
I wonder if sex counts as a social situation?
Only at a gang-bang or bukkake video shoot.
And if wine and cheese are served, it's most definitely a social situation.
STDs are referred to as social diseases, if that helps to clarify.
Yet for others, I may whimsically combine names and titles like ... glattiator!
Glatt. The glatt meister. Glattiator. Making copies. Glatt...
it depends. "in social situations" covers a lot of ground. In formal written correspondence, for formal events, a courtesy title, whether it's Mr., Ms., or Dr. is expected. In less than formal encounters, it still depends. Depends on setting, on age, on the amount of respect the addressor wishes to convey.
For an addressee, in the United States, it's almost always pretentious to insist on being addressed with a courtesy title.
If everyone is being addressed with a title (ms/mr/professor/whatever) then those who have earned a dr title should be addressed as such (be it medical or academic). But if the general protocol is first names, then hell no. I imagine she's talking about professional social gatherings -she probably doesn't do any other type.
Child's piano concert? Well if you're schmoozing, then yes, but if you're just being friends, then no.
But you should never address a Dr as a Mr or Mrs if titles are the theme of the day -especially not the Mrs thing. Mrs means belonging to Mr. Most women who have worked hard to earned the title Dr. will have an objection to that -especially if they didn't change their last name.
Of course, I could be unrepresentative of the sample, but I get major pissed if you address me formally and know I have a doctorate and still call me Mrs. I can forgive you if you don't know -as many don't because I don't work- and I won't even correct you (unless you really piss me off), but if you know, I take it as an insult and I will never tend to you if you have a heart attack in public and I'm the only Dr in the house ;)
I think there's often confusion between the doctor and the monster, because the monster never really had a name.
I wonder if sex counts as a social situation?
If you're roleplaying, then addressing the other person as Dr would be entirely appropriate.
I just Googled her. She's older. So I can understand if she's Chinese and an older generation, she's going to have different attitudes...
:nods: Her attitudes are cultural and generational so fair enough if she's within her own culture. Otherwise, I 'd agree with what everyone else has said.
There are many doctors in my family from different generations. Outside of a formal situation none have asked to be addressed with their formal title. In fact, they all prefer to be addressed like everyone else.
My opinion, this woman is an elitist hobo whore.
As you were.
It really depends on your relationship with that person and the context of the social interaction. At work I call him Doc, at social situations I call him Adam.
At work they call me Lt. Col. otherwise they call me Bill.... whatever makes you comfortable. Some people can'd break the chain. For others it is no problem.
There are many doctors in my family from different generations.
Were any of them Chinese?
Seriously, my least favourite aunt insists that I prefix her and her husband's with the title Aunt and Uncle (because it's a priviledge ...is there an emoticon for wank, wank, wank) so basically I just avoid using her name at all costs and thank god at regular intervals that she lives in another state (but that's sort of irrelevant now that I'm o/s).
I think there's often confusion between the doctor and the monster, because the monster never really had a name.
Frahnk-n-steen!
If everyone is being addressed with a title (ms/mr/professor/whatever) then those who have earned a dr title should be addressed as such (be it medical or academic). But if the general protocol is first names, then hell no. I imagine she's talking about professional social gatherings -she probably doesn't do any other type.
Child's piano concert? Well if you're schmoozing, then yes, but if you're just being friends, then no.
But you should never address a Dr as a Mr or Mrs if titles are the theme of the day -especially not the Mrs thing. Mrs means belonging to Mr. Most women who have worked hard to earned the title Dr. will have an objection to that -especially if they didn't change their last name.
Of course, I could be unrepresentative of the sample, but I get major pissed if you address me formally and know I have a doctorate and still call me Mrs. I can forgive you if you don't know -as many don't because I don't work- and I won't even correct you (unless you really piss me off), but if you know, I take it as an insult and I will never tend to you if you have a heart attack in public and I'm the only Dr in the house ;)
It's Doctor Monster, I didn't spend six years in Monster Medical School to be called "missus," thank you very much.
;)
is there an emoticon for wank, wank, wank
Why yes, there is.
:jagoff:
[YOUTUBE]Ra5iXI_WCu0[/YOUTUBE]
what do I win?
I really just prefer monster though, and don't attend functions where titles would be de rigeur, so it's all hypothetical. But your summary reminds me of my first ceramics instructor who would regularly proclaim "I didn't spend six years at art school to open glaze jars!" That was 10 years ago and we still remember her when some idiot asks the instructor to open the glaze jar for them. :lol:
Were any of them Chinese?
Nope - and that was kinda my point - this is more due to her culture than anything else.
I like to be addressed as Your Most Royal Awesome Glitter Queen (of Antioch)
:queen:
I like to be addressed as Your Most Royal Awesome Glitter Queen (of Antioch)
:queen:
Dahling, are you of the Yellow Springs Antiochs? You
are royalty! :)
Don't forget your Strawberry Queen duties. It's coming up, you know.
edit: In HS my friends and I ran into some older fellows who were wearing the Antioch hat and stuff. Really sweet old guys. I forget how we started talking to them, it was either at the Fair or the Strawberry Festival. Anyway, we called them the Artichokes and they thought it was really funny.
So where does it leave us when the person in question is a surgeon or a consultant?
And how do you address your dentist (when you don't have anything in your mouth)?
And how about Strawberry Festival Queens, even if Bri is now collecting titles like they're beanie babies...?
So where does it leave us when the person in question is a surgeon or a consultant?
They don't revert to Mr/Ms here, it's doctor all the way, baby.....
And how do you address your dentist (when you don't have anything in your mouth)?
bitch
And how about Strawberry Festival Queens, even if Bri is now collecting titles like they're beanie babies...?
yo bitch.
So where does it leave us when the person in question is a surgeon or a consultant?
And how do you address your dentist (when you don't have anything in your mouth)?
I call my dentist Dr. Well, I will when I go to my new alive dentist.
And how about Strawberry Festival Queens, even if Bri is now collecting titles like they're beanie babies...?
Beanie babies...lol!
btw, we have about 3 months for one of us to win the lottery so you can make it to the festival!
http://www.gostrawberries.com/cwt/external/wcpages/strawberry-festival/index.aspxIn the office, I always refer to the Doctors that I work with as Dr. Outside, the older man is Doc, the young woman is Chrissy. Previous doctors that I worked with were Dr. in front of patients, their first name in private. The doctors who treat me are always Dr., even out of the office. Friends are never Dr. I refer to The Strawberry Queen as Sugar Tits.
As a Brit, I find it weird that Opticians and dentists expect to be called Dr. ZI don't know if the whiole scene has changes since Ileft, though. In the main, I find Brits far less formal. Far fewer children refer to their friends parents as Mr/Mrs Whatever.
I still find it really weird when kids who know my name will say "yes ma'am" when I ask them to do something and they're not being funny.
I can't say about children as they know me in and out of school as "Miss-us Awwww-neeee".
I didn't realise those higher up the medical chain in the US stayed Doctors. That makes a difference in the dropping the Doctor in a social setting thing.... I think.
For those unclear about what we've just discussed - consultants and surgeons in the UK are addressed Mr, Mrs Ms as per their preference. They are no longer called Doctor. It's a badge of honour.
As an adult I can't imagine ever using the word Sir. Unless it was to a Judge. No, that's Your Honour. And I certainly can't imagine using Madam or Ma'am. I'm very conventional and polite, I just can't picture appropriate circumstances.
It's a badge of honor to be called Mr or Mrs or Ms, or being called Doctor is a badge of honor? Because a surgeon is a specialized doctor, isn't he?
And what is a consultant? Like a family doctor? Which actually makes sense and sort of answers my previous questions...so someone with an advanced medical degree is not called doctor?
I remember calling a basketball coach "sir" when I was in HS and he (who had really just recently graduated college and became a teacher) laughed and asked me not to call him 'sir', that he wasn't my dad. Those guys prefer Coach but I thought I was being respectful. Of course, I've never called my dad 'sir' either. However, in retail stores and the like it's normal to call people 'ma'am' or 'sir' or 'miss'. In fact I knew I was old when no one called me Miss anymore, just Ma'am.
I used sir in the UK once I started working in retail stores.
But the whole title thing is un-British. Like the boss of the schools being called "Superintendent Brown" rather than just Mr Brown or Dr Brown. And even on boards and commitees, the report is always about Trustee Jackson, and Councillor White. and calling your team coach "Coach Jim or Coach Bumfluff" rather than just Jim or Mr. Bumfluff. So alien. I still struggle after 10 years.
re consultant, they are high-up super-duper doctors, so awesome that to associate them with mere regular doctors is an insult to their superiority. so they go back to Mr./Ms. to show just how awesome they are.
Oh and professor -only really high up teachers in British universities are professors. Not all of them. the rest are just Dr. or Mr/s. such-and-such.
It's a badge of honor to be called Mr or Mrs or Ms, or being called Doctor is a badge of honor? Because a surgeon is a specialized doctor, isn't he?
They progress beyond the title of Doctor. A surgeon has more years under his/ her belt. It's like going from being valuable to priceless :)
And what is a consultant? Like a family doctor? Which actually makes sense and sort of answers my previous questions...so someone with an advanced medical degree is not called doctor?
A family doctor is a GP (general practitioner) and is always called Doctor professionally. A Consultant is the person you are referred to AFTER a doctor. They are a specialist in their field, have trained longer and have more knowledge than a doctor. Again, they are beyond the title.
It's not about your degree, it's about your profession, and the rank you have achieved in it.
And I think I know who you are now IM.
Sorry that it took me so long, I hadn't read long enough posts to recognise your stylee.
Oh, sorry. I figured most knew. There are only a couple I'd rather not figure it out because of trolling history but last night's posts tell me it's too late for that. I'm sure feigned innocence would result from a call-out, and it's not worth it.
Thanks, I do get the difference now. A consultant is a specialist. We would say something like "My doctor sent me to a specialist for a consult" so it's kind of the same. But we would still call the specialist a Doctor.
Oh, sorry. I figured most knew.
RKZenrage? Marichiko? Yesman065? Who are you, really?;)
As an adult I can't imagine ever using the word Sir.... And I certainly can't imagine using Madam or Ma'am.
I call my kids Sir and Ma'am when I'm admonishing them. A lot of parents here do, but only when the kids are still under the age of 6 or so.
RKZenrage? Marichiko? Yesman065? Who are you, really?;)
I smack thee on general principle. :D
I call my kids Sir and Ma'am when I'm admonishing them. A lot of parents here do, but only when the kids are still under the age of 6 or so.
Funny, I call the children Mr and Miss (usually their first name, as they understand it) when I am mock-admonishing them.
So I might say "Excuse me Miss Amy, what do you need at the end of that sentence?" She understands, adds please and can laugh at the same time.
...I know I am an equal in every regard to any doctor in my field of expertise...
Humble, too.:neutral:
Humble, too.:neutral:
*snicker* :p:
But you know, they call me Dr. Love. I am the doctor of love. I got the cure you're thinking of. Probably why they call me Dr. Love.
:lol:
They progress beyond the title of Doctor. A surgeon has more years under his/ her belt. It's like going from being valuable to priceless :)
A family doctor is a GP (general practitioner) and is always called Doctor professionally. A Consultant is the person you are referred to AFTER a doctor. They are a specialist in their field, have trained longer and have more knowledge than a doctor. Again, they are beyond the title.
It's not about your degree, it's about your profession, and the rank you have achieved in it.
And I think I know who you are now IM.
Sorry that it took me so long, I hadn't read long enough posts to recognise your stylee.
Professor is also different kettle of fish in the UK than the US it's not an academic grade but a senior position, a Chair, like a business VP or member of the board rather just a senior manager, and would also be used as a title in a formal social setting.
Oh and professor -only really high up teachers in British universities are professors. Not all of them. the rest are just Dr. or Mr/s. such-and-such.
Professor is also different kettle of fish in the UK than the US it's not an academic grade but a senior position, a Chair, like a business VP or member of the board rather just a senior manager, and would also be used as a title in a formal social setting.
:p: tailposter
some how I'm reminded of the guy who worked on high steel for 20 years, but do they call him "ironworker?" NO.
But you fuck one goat...
The ones I try to avoid are the pretentious titles like reverend, father, supreme being, etc.
That's Doctor Pretentious-Wanker to you, sir!
I only use the Dr. when dealing with my bank and landlord. I might be introduced as Dr Zengum if I'm presenting a conference paper or something but would be addressed as Zen in pretty much all situations. This would include being addressed by students.
Like the UK, Australia is stingy with the use of professor. Of five levels of Academia, the top is professor, then associate professor, then senior lecturer, lecturer, and associate lecturer (me). Maybe 10% of continuing-position acedemics are professors, maybe less.
I've used the Dr once this year already and I'm warming up for the second..... I see pretentious wanker in my future. but it's not my fault -the dickheads are enabling me. If they didn't instantly buckle when i played the card......
I like to remind Dazza that he's an Ass. Professor sometimes. :D
He's trying really hard to get promoted so he can drop the Ass. lol
eta: his students don't call him professor or even mister. They just call him Dazza like everyone else does.
My dad's a full professor (retired.) He was even given an honorary title on top of that by the college where he taught. He was the first to receive this honorary title, which came with a slight salary bump, and there have only been three in the 25 years since then.
His students call him George. I've never in my life heard him refer to himself as Doctor. His title has only been used at conferences and such.
re: Pretentious social situations. I avoid them at all costs.
I hate the fact that I am addressed as Councillor by council workers and so forth. I have trained those I am in regular contact with to call me Dani ;p Unless it's a formal meeting in which case we all use titles, and will refer to each other as Councillor Whatever.
One really bizarre little detail: a lot of the married women councillors adopt the title 'Councillor Mrs XXXX'. Only for the women. There are no 'Councillor Mr Whatevers'
refer to each other as Councillor Whatever.
Isn't that confusing?
The ones I try to avoid are the pretentious titles like reverend, father, supreme being, etc.
I don't see Reverend as pretentious as all. It denotes that someone works for the church, that's all, as far as I can see. Having said that, anyone with that title I think I've called by their first name or Mr+ surname.
I think Reverend is pretentious in this sense: "worthy to be revered; entitled to reverence; a feeling or attitude of deep respect tinged with awe;"
By rights they shouldn't be addressed as reverend. According to the free dictionary :
.
Usage:*Reverend with a surname alone (Reverend Smith), as a term of address (``Yes, Reverend''), or in the salutation of a letter (Dear Rev. Mr Smith) are all generally considered to be wrong usage. Preferred are (the) Reverend John Smith or Reverend Mr Smith and Dear Mr Smith
I hate the fact that I am addressed as Councillor by council workers and so forth. I have trained those I am in regular contact with to call me Dani ;p Unless it's a formal meeting in which case we all use titles, and will refer to each other as Councillor Whatever.
One really bizarre little detail: a lot of the married women councillors adopt the title 'Councillor Mrs XXXX'. Only for the women. There are no 'Councillor Mr Whatevers'
Back in my bartending days, I kidded (vehemently but charmingly, sure) the customers to not call me barmaid. I said "You don't call Dennis barbutler do you? Bartender is good." Being intelligent sorts, they picked right up on that. 'Course, I WAS vehement but charming. :lol:
Quite an interesting discussion.
That's Doctor Pretentious-Wanker to you, sir! Of five levels of Academia, the top is professor, then associate professor, then senior lecturer, lecturer, and associate lecturer (me). Maybe 10% of continuing-position acedemics are professors, maybe less.
Going for NZ pronunciation there Dr ZenGum?
Hey, too years ago I couldn't spell academic. Now I are one.
You are the epitome of macademia.
Hey, too years ago I couldn't spell academic. Now I are one.
Ssshhhhhhhhhhhhhh, no-one else needs to know.
Back in my bartending days, I kidded (vehemently but charmingly, sure) the customers to not call me barmaid. I said "You don't call Dennis barbutler do you? Bartender is good." Being intelligent sorts, they picked right up on that. 'Course, I WAS vehement but charming. :lol:
Is the bar tender here?
No, it's kind of tough and chewy...
I don't think it's pretentious if at all if someone has earned the certification that conveys the title. If someone is officially a doctor, by degree and training, then there's no reason why they couldn't be or expect to be called doctor.
Both my parents are medical doctors and how they want people to refer to them completely depends on the situation and the person. In a professional setting, such as in the doc's office or in a medical meeting, they introduce themselves as Doctor. In social settings, like a dinner party or at church events or similar, they'll use Mr. and Mrs. If the event or the conversation causes them to mention they're doctors, they will accept either Mr./Mrs. or Dr. from other people... they let them decide. If it's a social function where they're friends with every one or a family function, then first names or familial titles are fine. They don't stress the Dr. title at all, even if everyone knows.
Generally, I call people by how they introduce themselves or are introduced to me. So if a doctor is introduced to me as Mr. Lastname, I call him Mr. Lastname, unless he asks for otherwise. Of course, if the person warrants it, I will instead call him "schmuck".
I don't think it's pretentious if at all if someone has earned the certification that conveys the title. If someone is officially a doctor, by degree and training, then there's no reason why they couldn't be or expect to be called doctor.
Both my parents are medical doctors and how they want people to refer to them completely depends on the situation and the person. In a professional setting, such as in the doc's office or in a medical meeting, they introduce themselves as Doctor. In social settings, like a dinner party or at church events or similar, they'll use Mr. and Mrs. If the event or the conversation causes them to mention they're doctors, they will accept either Mr./Mrs. or Dr. from other people... they let them decide. If it's a social function where they're friends with every one or a family function, then first names or familial titles are fine. They don't stress the Dr. title at all, even if everyone knows.
Generally, I call people by how they introduce themselves or are introduced to me. So if a doctor is introduced to me as Mr. Lastname, I call him Mr. Lastname, unless he asks for otherwise. Of course, if the person warrants it, I will instead call him "schmuck".
Are you in the US? I suspect a cultural difference here.... in the UK, once you are Dr. It replaces the Mr or Ms completely. That's sort of why I like it -it's genderless. But I notice here there's rarely a space on personal info forms for Dr or other title, as there is on most British forms, and yet there is space for suffixes (e.g. Jr, III etc) which there isn't on British forms, in general.
Are you in the US? I suspect a cultural difference here.... in the UK, once you are Dr. It replaces the Mr or Ms completely. That's sort of why I like it -it's genderless. But I notice here there's rarely a space on personal info forms for Dr or other title, as there is on most British forms, and yet there is space for suffixes (e.g. Jr, III etc) which there isn't on British forms, in general.
Yes, I live just south of DC and my family's been in the US for generations. Maybe there's a regional cultural difference, not just a national one?
That bit of social etiquette has stayed with me all my life. Friends of old who now have doctorates I will still call by first name or nick/pet name but if I introduce them to someone else, I call them Dr. and let my friend decide if they want the person to call them anything else.
Moving parts in rubbing contact require lubrication to avoid excessive wear. Honorifics and formal politeness provide lubrication where people rub together. Often the very young, the untraveled, the naïve, the unsophisticated deplore these formalities as "empty," "meaningless," or "dishonest," and scorn to use them. No matter how "pure" their motives, they thereby throw sand into machinery that does not work too well at best.