The Triangle Shirtwaist Fire

100 years ago this Friday.

I don't think this could happen today. So what do you think the difference is - better laws governing businesses, more altruistic owners, something else?

Pete Zicato;717765 wrote:

100 years ago this Friday.

I don't think this could happen today. So what do you think the difference is - better laws governing businesses, more altruistic owners, something else?

Altruistic owners? Not.

Social safety nets. Citizens feel that they can leave an unsafe job without fearing that they won't be able to provide for their family.

BTW, 14 American workers die every day.

It can, and does happen.

Station Nightclub, West Warwick, Rhode Island.
(siswolf lived around the corner from this place, less than 1/2 mile away. Several times when visiting her I had considered going to check it out. I also have met the Rhode Island CISM coordinator)

republica Cromagnon, Buenos Aires, Argentina

And countless others.

Poor fire control systems, confusing floor plans, flammable decorations, and "security" involving chaining doors shut to prevent people from sneaking in.

this incident specifically gave rise to the unions, which did a lot in terms of protecting workers' rights and improving conditions.

I, too, thought of the nightclub fires in recent years. No unions for partygoers, unfortunately.

wolf;717789 wrote:

It can, and does happen.

Oh I understand that fires can and do happen. But I think that the work condition circumstances in the Shirtwaist incident are a lot less likely today.

There are plenty of sweatshops still operating in most major cities, and many of them have the same sorts of conditions that lead to the Triangle Shirtwaist fire, including the poor ventilation and locked exits.

fire codes have improved considerably and regulated more closely also

wolf;717794 wrote:

There are plenty of sweatshops still operating in most major cities, and many of them have the same sorts of conditions that lead to the Triangle Shirtwaist fire, including the poor ventilation and locked exits.

Ok so we haven't done as well as I thought.

Does anyone still want to argue that we don't need to regulate business?

wolf wrote:

There are plenty of sweatshops still operating in most major cities, and many of them have the same sorts of conditions that lead to the Triangle Shirtwaist fire, including the poor ventilation and locked exits.

Poor ventilation and panicked crowds that clog exits, absolutely. But exits locked from the inside? I was pretty sure that nowadays any commercial building has the kind that automatically lock from the outside, with the big pushbar to open from the inside. It's standard building code.

wolf;717794 wrote:

There are plenty of sweatshops still operating in most major cities, and many of them have the same sorts of conditions that lead to the Triangle Shirtwaist fire, including the poor ventilation and locked exits.

Especially for undocumented/illegal worker/aliens.

Cloud;717795 wrote:

fire codes have improved considerably and regulated more closely also

OSHA saves lives. And fingers, and eyes....

Clodfobble;717818 wrote:

Poor ventilation and panicked crowds that clog exits, absolutely. But exits locked from the inside? I was pretty sure that nowadays any commercial building has the kind that automatically lock from the outside, with the big pushbar to open from the inside. It's standard building code.

Sometimes, they get chained, so that partiers can't open a door to let in other who avoid paying the cover charge.

wolf;717794 wrote:

There are plenty of sweatshops still operating in most major cities, and many of them have the same sorts of conditions that lead to the Triangle Shirtwaist fire, including the poor ventilation and locked exits.

True.
Just ask Kathie Lee Gifford.

Pete Zicato;717765 wrote:

more altruistic owners

Snicker

Perhaps, Other:
Outsourcing to countries which don't have laws about child labour, health and safety, building regulations, maximum working hours etc etc? Aye. Trying to save lives cripples production and industry, unless they can relocate into a country where being crippled is an everyday hazard.

England has had some bloody awful fires a lot more recently than 1911. I'm not diminishing the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire, it's just that they were also huge incidents and all have a legacy in terms of safety.
Those alive learn and try to redefine what is safe.

Bradford City (football club) - 56 died (265 injured) - 1985
Caught live on TV. Albeit from across the ground, but the panic and the sheer speed of the fire and the horror of the commentator is shocking. Our Hindenburg.

Kings Cross (Underground station) - 31 dead - 1987
Smoking was still allowed on the Tube until then

Piper Alpha (Oil Rig) - 167 dead - 1988
Only 62 survivors
Red Adair finally extinguished the flames 3 weeks later

Cloud;717790 wrote:

this incident specifically gave rise to the unions, which did a lot in terms of protecting workers' rights and improving conditions.

I, too, thought of the nightclub fires in recent years. No unions for partygoers, unfortunately.

That's why

You

have
to
fight

for
your
right

to
P A R T Y !

Sundae Girl;718471 wrote:

Snicker

Well yes, I was being facetious. I posted this to point out the necessity of (at least some) government regulation.

Sundae Girl;718471 wrote:

Bradford City (football club) - 56 died (265 injured) - 1985
Caught live on TV. Albeit from across the ground, but the panic and the sheer speed of the fire and the horror of the commentator is shocking. Our Hindenburg.

Holy crap, Sundae. I can't believe how fast that went up. I suspect a lot of the deaths were due to the fact that the spectators didn't believe it was going to go like that either. Look at how many hang around their seats until they're in serious danger.

The footage Sundae mentions:
[YOUTUBE]11UP99uHMuI[/YOUTUBE]

This book about that fire was the first non fiction book I read as a kid, I was about 12 or 13. It really astounded me, I used to go to the neighborhood all the time with my dad, whose father was a fireman and probably at that fire.

Pete Zicato;718474 wrote:

Holy crap, Sundae. I can't believe how fast that went up. I suspect a lot of the deaths were due to the fact that the spectators didn't believe it was going to go like that either. Look at how many hang around their seats until they're in serious danger.

Glad you found that Pete, YouTube often removes it on request as it's considered to be offensive to the families of those who died. I don't think it is. If someone gets their kicks out of watching people die there are far better places to find images on the internet.

I hadn't seen it for a while and it shocked me all over again.
That and Hillsborough in 1989 (not a fire, but an appalling crush in which 96 football fans died) saw the end of the terraces. Seating only stands were apparently going to kill off live football. Didn't happen. Instead less killing of fans.

Hillsborough in case you're interested. Again, it's horrible.
When I saw the picture on the front page of my colleague's paper the next day I went into the Ladies to be sick. It was knowing that the photo probably showed people already dead ( as they were pressed up against the barrier) or about to die. And also that someone had stood there and taken the photo.

[youtube]E4NvFIDcdEM[/youtube]
Sorry for being so depressing!

Pete Zicato;718474 wrote:

[YOUTUBE]11UP99uHMuI[/YOUTUBE]

That is horrible! The structure must have been old. I don't think I've been to a sports venue that is made of a flammable material.

I've never seen wood go up that fast, except a Christmas tree. :eek:

Circuses were good at catching fire.

http://www.circusfire1944.com/

footfootfoot;718472 wrote:

That's why

You

have
to
fight

for
your
right

to
P A R T Y !

Hell yeah! :lol2:

I watched the HBO documentary on the Triangle Shirtwaist fire yesterday. The focus seemed to be on personalizing the event by interviewing descendants of the survivors and victims.

I remember first hearing about it because a high school classmate did a report and presentation on the fire.

Looks like there was a nice accelerant in that soccer fire from the onset.

I wondered if it was three feet of accumulated greasy fish and chips wrappers that had been tossed below the bleachers.

I think it was a greasy hobo.

At one point the announcer says "and now the timbers are coming down..", so the whole thing was likely made of wood with maybe some steel or tin on the roof. Knowing that, the wood was probably lacquered or treated with tar to make it more weather resistant being outdoors like that, which would only cause the fire to burn more intensely and spread faster.

Clodfobble;717818 wrote:

Poor ventilation and panicked crowds that clog exits, absolutely. But exits locked from the inside? I was pretty sure that nowadays any commercial building has the kind that automatically lock from the outside,

Don't be so sure. In late 1970s, I was visiting friends in Stone Harbor NJ. We were in a crowded night club called Shelter Haven. I smelled something I did not like. Then noticed employees running about in a very concerned manner. I could not get to the front door - it was too crowded. Told friends I was going out back to check for an exit. Found a few. All doors with push bars that were chained and locked on the inside.

Well, I started back to the front. When I finally got out, the staff suddenly started asking everyone to leave quickly. As multiple fire trucks were arriving at the front door.

I called CBS news that night. Reported what had happened and what I found. Never heard anything. Even in modern times, too many people are more concerned about controlling costs rather than safety. And will do what is required only if laws demand it with stiff financial penalties. Too many people think the purpose of a business is profits.

tw;719177 wrote:

Don't be so sure. In late 1970s, I was visiting friends in Stone Harbor NJ. We were in a crowded night club called Shelter Haven. I smelled something I did not like. Then noticed employees running about in a very concerned manner. I could not get to the front door - it was too crowded. Told friends I was going out back to check for an exit. Found a few. All doors with push bars that were chained and locked on the inside.

Well, I started back to the front. When I finally got out, the staff suddenly started asking everyone to leave quickly. As multiple fire trucks were arriving at the front door.

I called CBS news that night. Reported what had happened and what I found. Never heard anything. Even in modern times, too many people are more concerned about controlling costs rather than safety. And will do what is required only if laws demand it with stiff financial penalties. Too many people think the purpose of a business is profits.

We're in America. Nothing will be done about that until more than 8 people die in a horrible tragedy.:cool:

Late 70s?
Ditto 1981 in the British Isles.

The Stardust fire was a fatal fire which took place at the Stardust nightclub in Artane, Dublin in the early hours of 14 February 1981. Some 841 people had attended a disco there, of whom 48 died and 214 were injured as a result of the fire.

Some of the main fire exits turned out to be locked with padlocks and chains. Other fire exits simply had chains draped about the push bars. In addition to this, the failure of the lighting in the club led to widespread panic causing mass trampling as many of the patrons instinctively ran for the main entrance. Many people mistook the entrance to the men's toilets for the main entrance doors but the windows there had metal plates fixed on the inside and iron bars on the outside. Firemen attempted in vain to pull off the metal bars using a chain attached to a fire engine. Firemen rescued between 25-30 of those trapped in the front toilets. Seven people died in the toilets at the other side of the building while the Dublin Fire Brigade were attempting to rescue them.

[snip] This finding, which has been disputed ever since, legally exonerated the owners from responsibility. However, the inquiry was damning in its criticism of the safety standards. See below for more on factual disputes.

The aftermath led to a huge number of recommendations being made in relation to fire safety. Comparisons were made to the Summerland disaster of 1973 in the Isle of Man and the lessons learned in that jurisdiction. However, some basic rules, such as the provision of fire extinguishers and fire exits being left unblocked and obviously posted, which have since been implemented, could probably have prevented many deaths if they had existed at the time.

The only good thing about fires like this is we certainly remember them. And they do bring about change.