Quake/Tsunami
OMG Hawaii's about to get hit, parts of Japan just got covered, footage of cars trying to drive away from the wave. this is horrible.
The images are incredible and scary, BBC just showed a whirlpool in the ocean near Japan and a small boat trapped on the rim -very Pirates of the Carribeanish and very very scary
...and a nuclear power plant on fire
eta I'm hearing about the plant on fire, but no images. I see footage of one they're worried about because there's no power to cool the reactors
The video footage is amazing.
I wonder about Hawaii, everyone there is fast asleep. I wonder what sort of warning systems they have to wake everyone up and get them away from the water?
They says they've been evacuating for hours, but Honolulu is so low and so packed.....
[youtube]k4w27IczOTk[/youtube]
Nothing stands a chance against that force
from the BBC
1332: Between 200 and 300 bodies have been found on a beach near Sendai, the semi-official Jiji Press news agency is reporting.
OMG.
This is another freak thing....
Sendai area got really hard hit.
We got one email from our office on the 33rd floor of a building in Tokyo. Phones are out, but email works. The building shook a lot, but everyone in the office is fine.
They are about 250 miles from the epicenter.
That whirlpool is crazy. Guess we'll know very soon how badly Hawaii was hit. And the Nuclear power plant situation..... The whirlpool needs to be IOTD.
Horrible devastation. I can't even imagine it, even seeing footage. :(
You would think the tsunami would put out the fires.
The cars and buildings being swept away like kids' toys at the beach.
You would think the tsunami would put out the fires.
Water won't do much for petroleum or natural gas based fires.
There are problems with pressure in the core of that nuclear reactor ... I thought there were supposed to be manual back-ups to shut down those things?
Hey, tw, this headline is for you.
My birth-father, half-sister, cousin and his family, and several musicians I've worked with are in Japan right now. Still waiting to hear from them all.
I just saw this in Popular Science:
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=6]Biggest Full Moon in 19 Years Almost Certainly Won't Cause a Huge Natural Disaster[/SIZE]
On March 19th, the moon will be closer--and thus bigger--than it's been in two decades
On March 19th, the moon will be closer to Earth than it's been since 1992. The full moon that night will appear about 14 percent larger and significantly brighter than usual, but despite the brightness, the supermoon has a dark side. Supermoons have been linked to massive natural disasters in the past, from earthquakes to floods--but that connection is typically touted by astrologists. Astronomers and scientists, with typical drollness, say a catastrophe is unlikely.
March 19th marks this year's lunar perigee, the point in the moon's orbit at which it is closest to Earth. It's the moon's elliptical orbit that's responsible for the differences in distance between the moon and Earth (the opposite, the point at which the moon is farthest from the Earth, is called the lunar apogee). This month's perigee will leave the moon, says[COLOR=blue]Steve Owens at Dark Sky Diary[/COLOR], about 8 percent closer to Earth than usual, and about 2 percent closer to Earth than the average lunar perigee. In fact, it'll be the closest positioning since 1992.
Past supermoons have coincided with natural disasters--the Indonesian earthquake in 2005, Australian flooding in 1954--but scientists note that those are unrelated, more likely than not. [COLOR=blue]Says John Bellini[/COLOR], a geophysicist at the U.S. Geological Survey: "A lot of studies have been done on this kind of thing by USGS scientists and others. They haven't found anything significant at all." The tides will pull a bit higher, but earthquakes are almost completely unaffected and volcanoes are not likely to show unusual behavior. John Vidale, a seismologist at the University of Washington in Seattle, said "Practically speaking, you'll never see any effect of lunar perigee. It's somewhere between 'It has no effect' and 'It's so small you don't see any effect.'"
Besides, it's still 2011. Everyone knows there won't be any world-ending catastrophes until next year, right?
[/FONT][/COLOR]
Hey, tw, this headline is for you.
Great minds think alike; that was my first thought, too.
wow, the video from CNN (et al.) is just incredible and horrific.
I feel betrayed by Bill O'Reilly's repeated assertions that the "tide goes in, tide goes out" and that there is "never a miscommunication."
The reactors are designed so that in the event of earthquake or similar, boron control rods automatically drop in to the core and absorb excess neutrons, ending the nuclear reaction. The problem now is remaining heat, which the cooling system is *supposed* to deal with.
It isn't going to go Chernobyl, but it might be a bit of a Three Mile Island. Still not pretty.
I have several friends in Japan, mostly in Nagoya and one in Tokyo, but they have all touched base.
It isn't going to go Chernobyl, but it might be a bit of a Three Mile Island. Still not pretty.
Due to insufficient information, one of the five reactors is starting to sound more and more like Three Mile Island. Apparently at least one meter of the boron rods are above water. And some melting has already occured inside that reactor core.
Viewing some numbers. The first quakes was 7.1. About 47 more quakes followed in those three days. Then an 8.9 quake happened. Since the big one, I counted another 190 earthquakes in the Sendai region.
I cannot get my head around the scale of this thing... heart-breaking.
I agree. The scale of it was huge and as it came into the west coast, I was worried for my brother in Anchorage, but it lost oomph after went past southern Alaska, islands and BC. phew
This seems a bit ghoulish to me:
I feel betrayed by Bill O'Reilly's repeated assertions that the "tide goes in, tide goes out" and that there is "never a miscommunication."
HA!
If you want to get economical about it ... ohh crap.
Japan's debt situation is worse than anywhere in Europe. Annual government spending is almost TWICE revenue. Budget deficit is around 10% of GDP. Government debt is twice GDP.
Ever since their bubble burst in 1990, they have been pumping stimulus into their economy - debt-funded infrastructure in rural areas that will never justify its own expense. Rebuilding from this will just be more of the same.
Somehow, everyone has been to polite to mention this, but a shock like this might be what breaks the dam wall, so to speak. An iron-faced repudiation of a gazillion yen worth of debt is not out of the question.
Wait... are you suggesting stimulus plans aren't an economic panacea?
Somehow, everyone has been to polite to mention this, but a shock like this might be what breaks the dam wall, so to speak. An iron-faced repudiation of a gazillion yen worth of debt is not out of the question.
You are confusing cash flow with growth. Consider how economics measures. Rebuilding will mean an increase in Japan's economic growth numbers.
Learn why money games have less correlation with reality. What happened to insurance company values after both Andrew and Katrina? Both eventually caused an increase in insurance company stock prices. And had little negative effect on their value.
Where is some of America's strongest growth? In the New Orleans region.
How to increase this nation's GDP? Simply require everyone to replace their front lawns annually. When profits do not appear four or ten years later, then economics takes revenge.
When rebuilding something that actually has an ROI years later, then little if any economic punishment.
In a year or so, every Cellar dweller with interest in earning from their investment will consider exchange traded funds for the Japanese economy.
Meanwhile, you should have seen something far more serious. One nuclear plant was in a Three Mile Island event over 24 hours ago. And like Three Mile Island, the 'powers that be' are only saying what they know. During Three Mile Island, that was MBAs lying because they had no idea how a power plant works. Lied so much that reporters openly ignore Met Ed management and openly said so in their reports. We now know Three Mile Island technical people were openly crying for help from the very beginning. And Met Ed MBAs ignore those requests due to complete technical ignorance. Question remains what Tokyo Electric management is. From what they have said, it was obvious before my previous post that the core had melted.
Let's be clear. Three Mile Island was dependent for one year on pumps that were damaged and could have failed at any time. Then the event would have restarted. Yes, Three Mile Island was a crisis for a year. Fukushima One had no way to pump coolant into it. Whether any cooling system can be restored is unknown. We know the building containing the reactor core exploded. And nobody is saying why. That is troubling.
There will be dangerous radiation leaks. Only question is how much.
Two other plants are also suffering less coolant failures.
How poor is information? Four whole trains completely disappeared. None of those carriages have yet been found. It implies how much remains unknown. Suggests how much higher a death counts will rise. How many tens of thousands? A reasonable number.
Amazing during this event, the local gossip 'top story' was about local flooding due to a few trivial inches of rain.
second explosion a Fuck-u-shima nuclear power station -reactor #3 this time.....
No mention of GodZilla ????
WTF Folks !!!! yer slippen !!!
I kid , I kid
this SUUUCCCKKKSS !!!
I hope Our Japanese Brother and Sister the Best !!
When rebuilding something that actually has an ROI years later, then little if any economic punishment.
As mentioned above an awful lot of Japanese infrastructure does
not provide a return on Investment.
Also, while only a few of Japan's factories have been damaged, their power generation capacity has taken a big knock and they are now scheduling blackouts around the country. Car production is almost completely halted.
We know the building containing the reactor core exploded. And nobody is saying why. That is troubling.
Several sources are saying why. Water being turned into free hydrogen and free oxygen, which then meets a spark. At least, that's what they're
saying.
How poor is information? Four whole trains completely disappeared. None of those carriages have yet been found. It implies how much remains unknown. Suggests how much higher a death counts will rise. How many tens of thousands? A reasonable number.
Indeed. Minamisanriku had a population of 17,000, before the tsunami. Around 7,000 have been accounted for in shelters and refuges. That is just one town.
second explosion a Fuck-u-shima nuclear power station -reactor #3 this time.....
I turned on the TV. The local gossip (that calls itself news) were reporting on Charlies Sheen.
Meanwhile Fukushima #2 has a serious leak somewhere. Is losing coolant inside its reactor containment vessel.
These are General Electric nuclear reactors being tested by god. Then maybe we will forget his agents are pedophiles. I wonder who 'wags his dog'?
I lost count of the number of earthquakes when it exceeded 300. A map from the USGS shows the major quake (leftmost yellow squares) has been followed by numerous quakes even on fault lines not related to this one. The original earthquake was on a fault shown by north to south red line. Numerous other faults are also now moving.
When you thought things could not be bad enough ....
[SIZE="5"][COLOR="Red"]Fukushima Reactor 2 now has no coolant. This is a potential China Syndrome![/COLOR][/SIZE]
Except that China is not the target.
[COLOR="Green"][size=3]A working coolant system is not their last line of defense[/size][/COLOR]
http://morgsatlarge.wordpress.com/2011/03/13/why-i-am-not-worried-about-japans-nuclear-reactors/A working coolant system is not their last line of defense
Just another reason why China need not worry.
Yesterday they were putting seawater in it.
That's the coolant equivalent of duct-tape.
Boing Boing led me to
this video of a tsunami that is just amazing. Taken by a dude at the base of a set of stairs going up a steep hill. He starts filming as the waters are licking his feet on the bottom step, and he keeps retreating up the stairs as the water gets higher and higher and higher and houses start floating away. This is what the tsunami looked like to all the people it killed, except they didn't get the happy ending of backing up the steep hill.
This is the location on Google Street view, so you can check it out. This is actually fairly far from the open water of the coast. It's alongside an inlet. I've heard tsunamis get magnified or focused in places like this.
NYTimes has an amazing set of before/after satellite photos. They're imposed on top of each other with a slider in the middle so you can compare directly.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/03/13/world/asia/satellite-photos-japan-before-and-after-tsunami.html?src=ISMR_AP_LO_MST_FB I've heard tsunamis get magnified or focused in places like this.
Remember, most of the tsunami energy was directed out into the Pacific. Japan only got a backdoor backlash.
Meanwhile, I was not kidding about the dire consequences of those multiple reactor meltdowns. Two went dry. That means the containment vessel was breeched and draining. Days later, Tokyo Electric (TEPCO) would not admit that.
Apparently the diesel generators were working. And were supposed to be monitored by a technician who, instead, went elsewhere to do other work. The generators stopped maybe due to no fuel. Then, as diesels can do when let run dry, it could not be restarted. Did a tsunami kill the generators? Apparently not. Therefore management was lying. Trying to be politically correct – which is akin to a felony.
Rather than be honest, TEPCO refused to admit the seriousness of radiation leakages. Government had to step in and call for evacuations and 'do not go outside' warnings. TEPCO was more worried about their reputation when at least two reactors already had breeched. TEPCO is sounding more like the incompetent management that created and then repeatedly lied about Three Mile Island 2.
Those posts in large letters were because I already knew from details what TEPCO would not announce for over twenty four hours later. Containment vessels had been breached. And at least two reactors were permanently destroyed.
What I did not know was that maybe 100 workers had already been contaminated to the point of radiation sickness. Some have already died. A few are still unaccounted for. AND control rooms have been without power. These reactors were being controlled by sending people to a valve and manually changing that valve. Like in Three Mile Island, the control room had almost no working controls. People had to run into radiation filled rooms, find a valve, change it, and run out.
So that they do not look bad, TEPCO management has been downplaying all this.
Reactor 4 did not even have fuel in it. That explosion was a complete surprise. Fuel was sitting in a pool outside of the containment vessel. No one bothered to notice that fuel was not being cooled. So that fuel also went dry. Melted. Resulting in maybe two explosions.
How incompetent was TEPCO? Two other reactors still could produce electricity. But only if TEPCO management understood technology, got off their asses, and requisitioned what was needed to connect those power generators to the others. They did not even keep pumps working in an adjacent building to keep that fuel cool. So even Reactor 4 that had been off since last November – it too exploded.
As soon as sea water was dumped into it, that reactor is gone. Toast. Scrap iron. Will never be functional. That is how desperate TEPCO has been to stop a complete meltdown while saying they were getting things under control. TEPCO engineers have been panicked for at least three days. Deja vue Three Mile Island.
A complete meltdown of three (or more) reactors is inevitable. Its not idle chatter that helicopters may have to bury the reactors in sand. All workers (the last 50) were removed because radiation levels are that excessive. The reactors, without power, must save themselves. TEPCO's incompetent management was more worried about saving face than saving an entire Japanese Prefecture. Those posted capital letters were a warning that extreme. Apparently I was wrong. It was even worse.
Well, it took about 5 days for America to finally learn that Metropolitan Edison was lying constantly about Three Miles Island. As any business school graduate would do so as deflect blame. It has taken about 5 days to realized how often TEPCO was lying. The difference. Each one of four Fukushima reactors are worse than what happened in Three Mile Island. None will be a Chernobyl. But the situation has been far more severe than anyone here realized. I thought it was much worse than what they were saying. We now know it was even worse than I had speculated.
America has never had a disaster (not even close) to what has just happened in Japan. Both the flood and a nuclear disaster (even though First Energy worked so hard to create one).
If you would like to see some graphic video of what it would be like to be in a tsunami at the ground level watch this. Absolutely incredible.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2011/03/14/first-person_video_of_japan_tsunami.htmlThe tw speculation is off the charts here; reaction containment has been breeched, and plumes of misinformation, nonsense and confusion can be seen for miles.
Those posts in large letters were because I already knew from details what TEPCO would not announce for over twenty four hours later.
At the point you wrote that,
TEPCO was announcing it on national Japanese TV.
Some have already died. A few are still unaccounted for.
Source: tw's ass
Good information is available from the
Nuclear Energy Institute,
World Nuclear News, and
MIT.
My world has been turned upside-down.
Nope, the NY Times story is wrong. There have been no deaths at the plant. Japan's
Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency has PDFs of news releases since the quake. They detail the injuries that have happened and why. There are no deaths listed.
0254: Updated casualty figures for the quake just in: 5,178 people dead and 8,606 missing, AFP quote police as saying.
from the BBC
OMFFSM
The tw speculation is off the charts here; reaction containment has been breeched, and plumes of misinformation, nonsense and confusion can be seen for miles.
The first breech may have been known on Saturday. But TEPCO continued to deny any breech occurred even days later. Cesium on Saturday said things were far worse than TEPCO reported.
UT's cited article had much misinformation. Once TEPCO was pouring seawater inside each reactor, then that reactor was being trashed. They were using their last and most destructive option; contrary to misinformation in UT's source. Because events were worse than a rosy picture they were painting. The first of major problems were known on Saturday – less than 24 hours after the earthquake.
Meanwhile, US government officials believe at least one pool containing spent nuclear material is completely dry. That means melting and outgassing radioactivity. The only reason that explains multiple explosions and fires. No reason for this other than mistakes (ignorance) at the highest levels of management. Danger from fuel stored outside the containment vessel is also contrary to what TEPCO wanted everyone to believe. An otherwise completely safe reactor had two explosions with fire because problems were ignored. Incompetence. Officials are calling for the Japanese military to (futility) pour water in via helicopters because the threat is much greater than they (or UT) will admit.
Bottom line reality. Three nuclear reactors are trashed. A fourth is now so radioactive as to be dangerous to human life. Unknown is how operators in two adjacent reactors are dealing with periodic high (but not deadly) levels of radioactivity that must be inside their control rooms. Bottom line - TEPCO has been outputting so much contrary and misleading information that even Japan's Prime Minister had enough - privately scolded TEPCO management for intentional misinformation or complete technical ignorance. Even the Emperor had to do something he rarely does. A speech to calm the nation.
Details say this is much worse than others easily manipulated by propaganda (ie UT) would have us believe.
How many days does it take to connect a power line? In emergencies, done in hours or a day. TEPCO still has not strung wires that should have been started 24 hours after the earthquake. Again, management was that ignorant or complacent.
In an early response to power loss, TEPCO management sent generators (some flown in by the US military). Generators that were found incompatible only after those generators arrived. Another example of why TEPCO management may be that incompetent. And why reactor operators are suffering from insufficient support.
Current tsunami death counts are irrelevant. Relevant is what exists (uncounted) now and whether that final count will exceed 20,000. We know those current numbers are too small. But numbers below 20,000 explain how well prepared for and drilled the Japanese were in disaster response. Hundreds of thousands were given only ten minutes to get to high ground. Amazing how many reacted so quickly.
It's worth noting:
"Health and nuclear experts emphasize that any plume will be diluted as it travels and, at worst, would have extremely minor health consequences in the United States."
Things suck bad right now for Japan, but we're OK.
I keep forgetting I'm much nearer to Japan than I used to be. And that it's really west of us.
I keep forgetting I'm much nearer to Japan than I used to be.
Actually, just a little closer.
Wolfram says 5896 miles from London to Japan. 6436 miles Ann Arbor to Japan.
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=distance+london%2C+england+to+japan
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=distance+ann+arbor%2C+michigan+to+japan
Useful site, by the way.
Because all Brits come from London, right? :p:
anyway, 8% is a lot. You wouldn't sniff at an 8% payrise right now, and you'd be hella pissed if taxes increased 8%, no?
Because all Brits come from London, right? :p:
Some come from Britain or England, too.
Because all Brits come from London, right? :p:
Couldn't remember what city you were from so I picked an arbitrary landmark. No offense intended. If you want to remind me, I can recheck with more accuracy.
anyway, 8% is a lot. You wouldn't sniff at an 8% payrise right now, and you'd be hella pissed if taxes increased 8%, no?
Well I wouldn't want to walk the difference, but it's just a couple of states.
Couldn't remember what city you were from so I picked an arbitrary landmark. No offense intended. If you want to remind me, I can recheck with more accuracy.
I tease you. UK is so small, you can't be 700 miles from London, so all is well. I'm from near Manc -I bet that makes less than 50 miles difference :)
The earthquake was an event made irrelevant by what man properly constructed.
The tsunami was an event that man could not have stopped.
Multiple nuclear meltdown was an event created by men not doing their job to avert what was unnecessary.
Multiple nuclear meltdown was an event that didn't and won't happen.
Multiple nuclear meltdown was an event that didn't and won't happen.
There are already two fuel rod meltdowns. Maybe three.
Meanwhile, ABC News succinctly identifies the problem in
Japan Nuclear Crisis: Workers Fail to Stabilize Plant; U.S. Water Pumps Might Be the Answer
One U.S. official told ABC News that they are urging the Japanese to get more people to help the workers inside the plant.
Want to see people in denial? One tank of spent nuclear fuel in reactor 4 needs 200 tons of water. So helicopters spread 7 tons everywhere but in the pool. What fool is ignoring those numbers?
Little got under a roof where fuel rods have already melted. Japanese fire trucks also could do virtually nothing. That effort was a joke before it started. A pool that all but TEPCO management says is dry. Only management (what makes nuclear power so dangerous) is denying that the pool is virtually dry.
In Three Mile Island, Jimmy Carter took control. An NRC director walked into Three Mile Island. In minutes he realized the only problem. He said, "I own this plant." He literally took it away from Met Ed - managers who were doing exactly what is taught in business schools. He took that plant without realizing that Carter had already authorized it because all of America was at that much risk by people with least competence. In minutes, he realized the only reason for Three Mile Island was management - that was also in denial as well as uneducated.
One has to be in complete denial to think multiple meltdowns have not occurred. But more important are the fearless fifty - the engineers in those plants that are getting no support from obviously incompetent TEPCO management. Was there ever a better example of the word "obviously"? They get no support also from a government that has not fired those TEPCO management for overt incompetence. Fired them with contempt because they have been in complete and "obvious" denial for a whole week. Just like an American president who also denied Katrina for almost a week. At what point does "obvious" become obvious?
Yesterday, they finally decided to run new power lines. How long did that take? Six days to make a decision. One day to run the wires. Could the definition of "incompetence" be any more obvious?
Meanwhile, they were also ignoring spent fuel rods in another pool in reactor 3. Even the best fire trucks from Tokyo could not possibly push enough water. So why is that TEPCO only response for Thursday?
You saw helicopters dropping a facet drip all over everything but the dry pool. And then TEPCO management announce it was successful. I could not believe it - watching on NHK live. That asshole had to be lying to his penis - the only thing that should have believed what he said. Because nobody could possibly believe what he said - except other managers who are just as incompetent. Clearly - or is the word "obvious" too hard to understand - those choppers did nothing. And that was TEPCO only solution for the day. Management is easily as incompetent as the Met ED management that first created and then ignored a disaster at Three Mile Island. Another perfect example of fools who never learn the lessons from history. Deja vue 3 Mile Island.
What makes nuclear power so dangerous. 85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management. I often wonder why anyone would not know that.
Multiple meltdowns already exist. Only those most in denial - ie TEPCO management - would deny it.
BTW, a so much largest meltdown and fire in multiple reactors would not threaten anyone in the US or Europe. But this is a lesson for everyone in the world. This is a failure "obviously" traceable to incompetence management. We should be taking names for the same reason we blame Anthony Alexander for intentionally creating the 2003 NE blackout and another almost Three Mile Island at Davis Besse in NW Ohio.
This event long ago exceeded anything at Three Mile Island. Because TEPCO management has been in denial, they have classified the event at level 4 - below a Three Mile Island event.
In 3 Mile Island, fuel remained inside the containment vessel. In Fukushima, radioactive material is outside containment vessels (some are breeched) now at deadly levels. And probably outside the plant.
Worse is how long TEPCO management has remained in denial. From today's NY Times is an example how inaction made things worse:
Additionally, a senior Western nuclear industry executive said that there also appears to be damage to the floor or sides of the spent fuel pool at Reactor No. 4, and that this is making it extremely hard to refill the pool with water. The problem was first reported by The Los Angeles Times.
So what did they expect to accomplish with those fire engines and dribbles from helicopters? Oh. Don't worry. Be happy.
Well, an American admiral for the Pacific Region implies that management finally got it. Apparently, blunt words privately from Americans (and probably from others) were finally heard by these business school trophies. The American admiral implied for the first time that things may be getting better. Why? TEPCO management finally understood they have a problem. So finally one thing got accomplished. TEPCO raised the event to level 5 - only equal to Three Mile Island. When they finally get it completely, Fukushima will be raised to a level 6 event.
Fukushima was level six before reactors 2 and 4 were in trouble. Denial at highest levels is the only reason for an explosion in reactor 4. Explains a full week of doing nothing.
At what point does the word "obvious" have significance?
Well Japanese officials have just admitted that some reactors or equipment may have to be buried in sand or concrete like Chernobyl. Chernobyl - a level 7 event.
How many were ignoring what first become obvious on Saturday - six days ago? Or need we define the word "obvious"?
Actually, just a little closer.
Wolfram says 5896 miles from London to Japan. 6436 miles Ann Arbor to Japan.
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=distance+london%2C+england+to+japan
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=distance+ann+arbor%2C+michigan+to+japan
Useful site, by the way.
Even more than you thought.
Quake Moves Japan Closer to U.S.
The earthquake in Japan appears to have brought the country and the United States closer together, and not just metaphorically speaking: The area of the country hit by the quake jumped 13 feet closer to the U.S., says The New York Times. A coastal stretch of Japan also sunk two feet—which allowed the tsunami to travel further inland. NASA also says the quake shortened the day by a couple millionths of a second and tilted Earth’s axis.
Read it at The New York Times
You know, I'm pretty sure it's all Bush's fault.
You know, I'm pretty sure it's all Bush's fault.
:D
You know, I'm pretty sure it's all Bush's fault.
Believe it or not, other people can be just as dumb. Some of them in the Cellar even voted for George Jr. And still do not apologize for being "so hating the American soldier" dumb.
From the NY Times of 19 Mar 2011 is a perfect example of why 85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management. Especially when management has no idea how the work gets done. Or in this case, how a nuclear reactor works.
Executives May Have Lost Valuable Time at Damaged Nuclear Plant
Nuclear experts said that executives thought they had enough time because the reactors had shut down automatically after the earthquake, and that they did not realize the risk posed by the spent fuel rods, which are highly radioactive and still emitting heat. ...
They failed to cool the reactors on the day of the earthquake, March 11, and even after a hydrogen explosion the following day, they waited more than four hours to start dousing the reactors with seawater. They did not even try to put water into the spent fuel pools for several days. ...
a former senior operator at a Pennsylvania power plant with General Electric reactors ... the crucial question is whether Japanese officials followed G.E.'s emergency operating procedures. Those procedures are "crystal clear" on how to determine when reactors should be flooded, ...
The procedures prescribe specific actions based on variables like reactor temperature and pressure, data Tepco has not yet released.
A former Tepco executive told The Wall Street Journal on Saturday that the company had hesitated to ruin the plant with seawater. A Tepco spokesman told The Journal that the company, "taking the safety of the whole plant into consideration, was trying to judge the appropriate timing to use seawater."
And what point does MBA thinking become obvious? Required actions were obvious had decisions come from where the work gets done.
"They could have reacted earlier, but this is a relative thing,” he said, pointing out that they were focused on the reactors rather than the spent fuel pools. "Economically, it is tough to decide to use seawater."
Logically it was a simple decision. Again why top people must come from where the work gets done - not from the finance department, educated in economics, from business schools, or the public affairs office.
Though partial fuel melting has already occurred in each reactor, ...
and still some insist no melting happened. First melting was all but obvious on Saturday.
All four plants lose power on Friday. All except battery power that was available for less than one day. No problem. New wires can be connected in one-half day. But bean counters in top TEPCO management needed six days to make a decision. Sounds just like the George Jr administration.
Nuclear failures directly traceable to humans who did not do their job.
The fuel rods that were in active use and the spent fuel stored at the facility will take years to completely cool and will require watering for years to stay under control.
Knowledge learned even from Three Mile Island. Had those TMI damaged pumps failed anytime that first year, then nothing was available to avert a Fukushima event. A lesson about how close Pennsylvania came to a serious nuclear event. And how much worse Three Mile Island 2 could have been had Carter and an NRC director not taken that plant away from incompetent management at Metropolitan Edison. An example of how responsible top management does its job.
85% of the time. TEPCO management is another example of stupidity that was also directly traceable to top management after Katrina. (So dumb as to go to a campaign fund raiser in Southern CA and then to John McCain's birthday party as people were dying in New Orleans.) What happens when top management comes from business schools (as George Jr was educated). Or remains in denail like a Catholic Church Cardinal. In all cases, top people should be making public aplogizes for not doing their jobs. And resigning.
Fukushima is another trophy repeatedly proven in history. 85% of all problems are directly traceable to people educated in lying about their incompetance.
TEPCO management will blame any and everything but themselves. The GE operation procedures were clear. But it might increase costs. So they did what any bean counter type would do. Hesitate. Even take six days to decide to connect new wires.
and still some insist no melt[COLOR="Red"]ing[/COLOR] happened.
No melt
[size=3]DOWN[/size] happened, which is what I insisted upon after you claimed there were multiple of them.
The mystery of where the "five deaths" idea came from remains.
This blogger saw it being reported in the Telegraph and asked the same thing I did: why aren't these deaths reported in the official reports?
[aside] tw is his own parody, really. not really cricket. [/aside]
I was listening to a podcast of Public Radio International from Canada where a specialist was explaining why newer plants have passive systems where electomagnets keep control rods from dropping into the reactor and why even newer plants have electromagnets keeping valves closed that could flood areas with coolant. All of these systems are activated by the absence of electricity.
It seems like such a simple idea, I wonder why noone thought of it 20-30 years ago when some of these older plants were built.
Believe it or not, other people can be just as dumb. Some of them in the Cellar even voted for George Jr. And still do not apologize for being "so hating the American soldier" dumb.
Oh, I vastly prefer the American soldier to you, tw.
And the more I can do to make tw -- owing to his anti-values -- ever the more rabid, the better I am doing for the Republic.
I'm voting against that useless socialist Obama again, you know. Liked doing it so much the first time, being after all so much over the sort of upper-two-digits IQ required to make voting for the Democrat the attractive choice, that I vote for politicians that I believe have wisdom. That pointedly excludes practically all the candidates the Dem Party puts up.
No melt[size=3]DOWN[/size] happened, which is what I insisted upon after you claimed there were multiple of them.
So where did hydrogen come from? When Zircaloy rod cladding melts, an explosive hydrogen is created. Zirconium dioxide means hydrogen can exist in explosive concentrations. Both inside the containment vessel. And in those storage ponds. Same explosion happened in Three Mile Island when those rods melted.
American officials believe one storage pond was all but dry. Therefore rods in those ponds also melted. Hydrogen released - as in what then caused explosions in three reactor buildings. Of course, the official release from TEPCO denies all this. And then in the news conference, the reporter asked, "Where did the hydrogen come from?" TEPCO management said, "We'll get back to you on that." Because TEPCO denied fuel rods melted - the official line that also could not explain the hydrogen.
Completely meltdown as in what American officials were telling the Japanese on Tuesday. And then said they will soon have to send people into the reactor to save it - and then die. On Tuesday, those statements finally got the Japanese attention. And is why some TEPCO employees were replaced by JSDF people.
TEPCO is finally admitting that damage to at least one reactor is so great that it must be scrapped. The actual number is probably three. But the official information that UT is reading were denying any plants were permenantly damaged. TEPCO also refused to release temperature and pressure numbers that show what they should have done when to avert rod melting.
Fuel rods have melted. Nobody can inspect them to confirm it. But the chemistry, temperatures, and rods not covered in water says fuel rods have melted.
Future melting has been averted. After blunt words from American (and other) experts and other actions (ie all Americans were advised to leave), TEPCO finally did what was necessary to have water flowing in all plants (except maybe reactor 3). Among the statements that finally got TEPCO's attention were recommendations to prepare to bury at least one reactor in sand and concrete. TEPCO management was shocked. TEPCO management was denying their problem that severe. Which is the official information that UT is reading.
For five days, TEPCO denied any problem was serious. That rods could have melted. So the official releases denied rod melting. And did not explain where hydrogen came from.
Nuclear incidents explained for Japanese school kids:
[YOUTUBE]gXPN4dfBAGU[/YOUTUBE]
The news does not seem to be improving much from day to day.
The news does not seem to be improving much from day to day.
We are just learning symptoms of how bad it was many days ago. We know dangerous amounts of radiation were being emitted long ago when TEPCO was singing, "Don't worry; Be happy". TEPCO only started to address problems about Wednesday - about five days after the earthquake. Long after rods had or were exposed and melting.
Most of that radiation that came from inside the containment vessel is Cesium and Iodine. Iodine has a half life (if I remember) of about a week. Meaning that radioactive material should be mostly gone in a month.
The problem. Radioactive materials appear to cause seriously diminished mental abilities in infants and fetuses. Those low dosages may be that hazardous to that minority.
Due to radiation leaks, work to restore power in days is taking at least a week. Too much radiation is outside the plants. Hundreds were said to have exceeded their maximum dosage levels long ago when TEPCO was denying these leaks. Eventually 1400 workers were removed leaving only the fearless fifty. In order to prevent worse radiation problems, many workers along with JSDF soldiers and others were brought back to be exposed to radiation levels that limit work to maybe two hours per day.
It is not worse than last week. But last week, they were preaching "no problem" propaganda. Obviously were lying or were in total denial. This week, they are admitting how bad things had become last week. Which means things would have been so much worse had not third parties (ie US government) not read to them a "be prepared to start sending people in to their death" predictions. It could be that much worse. Which says how much has finally been accomplished now that TEPCO management admitted the seriousness of their problem.
Radiation risk is as bad as Americans were saying and TEPCO was denying. Another US carrier (George Washington) has left Tokyo harbor to avoid being contaminated. Fukushima reactors were leaking that much radiation last week when TEPCO was claiming all rods were safe, cool, and covered in water. If true, then those hydrogen explosions never happened. Resulting radiation is only now become apparent. At only unhealthy and not deadly levels. It almost was so much worse. It is now so much better than what would have happened if TEPCO had remained in denial.
On NPR this morning - three workers have been sent to the hospital with radiation poisoning. They were working in knee deep water, hooking up the electricity. The water was radioactive.
On NPR this morning - three workers have been sent to the hospital with radiation poisoning. They were working in knee deep water, hooking up the electricity. The water was radioactive.
You'd think they'd be wearing some kind of lead clothing or something - anything to protect them from radiation.
I don't mean to be rude, but, um...aren't they supposed to be smarter than the average bear? Sorry if that's waisis.
I heard a bit of that on the radio. I
think they said those workers got exposed to 150 mSv, which on
this handy radiation chart is the equivalent of 3 years maximum permitted dosage for workers at a nuke plant and is more than enough to be clearly linked to an increased cancer risk.
Yabbut, water + electricity? If the radiation don't get you the kajillion volts will?
The latest I read was that the salt water used to cool the reactor is now starting to really build up. It's like the mineral deposits in a humidifier. As the sea water boils away, the salt is left behind. The number I saw was 57,000 pounds of salt are now coating the insides of the reactor. That salt insulates the rods and makes it harder to cool them down.
Interesting.
I heard a bit of that on the radio. I think they said those workers got exposed to 150 mSv, which on this handy radiation chart is the equivalent of 3 years maximum permitted dosage for workers at a nuke plant and is more than enough to be clearly linked to an increased cancer risk.
Yeah. Their skin was burned and their bone marrow damaged, if I heard correctly.
As the sea water boils away, the salt is left behind.
Like Gandhi on the beach!
UMMMMM. ANYONE? BUEHLER?
Standing in water hooking up electric. ANYONE?
:confused:
UMMMMM. ANYONE? BUEHLER?
Standing in water hooking up electric. ANYONE?
:confused:
Who cares about this electric, of which you speak. We have atomic problems here. Getting electricuted won't mean doodly-squat if the atoms get out!
I"m so confused. WHY would they care about a slow death from cancer when they're going to fry and split like a Ball Park Frank on the grill?
I'm missing something.
They were professionals. They had things covered.
IM - normally when you work on electrical lines, there's no electricity running in them.
They were professionals. They had things covered.
heeeheee
:hedfone:
IM - normally when you work on electrical lines, there's no electricity running in them.
Oh D'OH. :blush:
Thanks, that's what I was missing alright. I am decidedly NOT smarter than the average bear.
That pic is great. Every time I see it I wonder if they really put juice to it or if it was staged.
That pic is great. Every time I see it I wonder if they really put juice to it or if it was staged.
That picture demonstrates what management was thinking when they murdered seven Challenger astronaunts. Their reasoning - we have backup O'rings. No problem.
Japan has three disasters. An earthquake made irrelevant by good planning. A tsunami that nobody could have averted. And a nuclear nightmare because TEPCO management did not appreciate and would not address the problems when best solved. The third demonstrates how problems are directly traceable to top management.
No problem. Power is provided by a GFCI. It will always work. No problem. Backup O'rings stopped all previous O'ring failures and explosions. No problem. All reactors still have battery power.
None were accidents.
Problems occur in threes. All three happened at once. Japan has nothing more to worry about. Making it a save place to live. And plenty of new jobs will be created.
Problems occur in threes.
This sounds like superstition and not a typical tw post. Can't you have a problem occur in a pair? drought/fire or earthquake/landslide
No, I think he's on to something. Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld and Obama/Pelosi/Reid are cited as examples of disasters from different groups and they are grouped in 3's. And then if you're an atheist you might see the Father/Son/Holy Spirit idea as a disaster.
Nevermind, there were 4 twilight movies so let's just scrap this theory of 3.
You know what though? Celebrities die in threes, as we've seen lately. And I don't mean celebrities like Bobert Bob McBobberson that no one outside of Bob County in Bobsylvania has ever heard of...I mean the biggies.
I expect great returns on my celebrity death predictions.
Nevermind, there were 4 twilight movies so let's just scrap this theory of 3.
Haggis! They're going for 3 x 3 x 3...to complete the evil disaster.
No, I think he's on to something. Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld and Obama/Pelosi/Reid are cited as examples of disasters from different groups and they are grouped in 3's. And then if you're an atheist you might see the Father/Son/Holy Spirit idea as a disaster.
Nevermind, there were 4 twilight movies so let's just scrap this theory of 3.
But many assassins are all know by all
threee of their names also.
Lee Harvey Oswald, John Wilkes Booth, James Earl Ray, Jared Lee Loughner
I expect great returns on my celebrity death predictions.
I
knew I should have picked Louden Wainright III
I knew I should have picked Louden Wainright III
Who? Is he from Bob County in Bobsylvania? ;)
But many assassins are all know by all threee of their names also.
Lee Harvey Oswald, John Wilkes Booth, James Earl Ray, Jared Lee Loughner
but that's 4 people!
Japanese reactors are at a very critical stage. If TEPCO does not aggressively and decisively act quickly, then a major evacuation of personal followed by a major radiation leak will occur. Two reactors probably have melted cores. That explains the large amounts of Iodine 131. One or both also have containment vessel leaks. TEPCO is moving so slowly as to not even learn (or announce) a serious pool of radioactive water outside one plant for more than 24 hours later. But they were real quick to announce a reading that was too hight. TEPCO is still playing 'public spin' with facts. TEPCO top management remains that far removed from reality. Apparently management is responding to events rather than predicting, averting, and getting ahead of events. That is a formula for an every larger disaster.
TEPCO could not provide wires to power the plants for two weeks. That meant no power for any instruments in any control room for two weeks. That meant technical people had no or insufficient information to avert any problems. Ten days just to decide to route wires? An example of management responding to events rather then trying to control anything. Worse, nobody knows where breeches are. Or even if cooling pumps can work.
In Three Mile Island, damaged pumps worked for a full year. Had pumps failed, then Three Mile Island would have restarted a meltdown. In Fukushima, nobody knows how to get to some pumps. Let alone know if plumbing is still intact. Management is that far removed from reality and apparently responding like waves of flowing tar. Every week, the problems will get worse do to complete failure at TEPCO top management.
Every nuclear disaster is not traceable to plant failure. Every reason for disaster and for why problems only got worse was directly traceable to management. Every nuclear failure is directly traceable to management that did nothing or simply made things worse. People - not the plants - are what makes every nuclear power failure so dangerous. Including failures in Canada, UK, Nevada, and Fermi 1 outside of Chicago.
Samples from five locations outside these plants were taken on March 21 and 22. TEPCO finally announced on 28 Mar that those samples were radioactive. And contained plutonium. Plutonium is only created inside a reactor vessel that TEPCO believed were intact. Plutonium is one of the most dangerous radiactive elements. So TEPCO said nothing for 7 days?
Why should they? On 21 Mar, TEPCO had already made a major decision. TEPCO decided to run electric wires so that control rooms had lights. Why make a second big decision in the same week? Why admit things were that bad? Two major decisions in one week is hard. What will next week's decision be? To admit they made a mistake?
Waves of tar move faster.
As workers lose the battle to contain the radiation from the Fukushima nuclear plant, Ian Sample talks us through all the main developments.
linkI heard an interesting interview on NPR yesterday. The guy said that the deaths from mining and processing coal, and from the pollution caused by burning it are worse than atomic power, even considering this catastrophe, 3 Mile Island, and Chernobyl.
Coal is also a big source of dangerous
radioactive waste.
And so is natural gas, due to
fracking.
I heard an interesting interview on NPR yesterday. The guy said that the deaths from mining and processing coal, and from the pollution caused by burning it are worse than atomic power, even considering this catastrophe, 3 Mile Island, and Chernobyl.
The comparison ignores a fundamentally important fact. Nuclear deaths (and there have been more from other nuclear plants) are not due to the plant or energy production. In each nuclear plant failure, deaths were directly traceable to humans.
In those other cases, death was traceable to the actual process of making energy. When energy was created normally.
Some plants are less forgiving. Other plants let humans make more mistakes. 3 Mile Island is a classic example. Had human not intervened multiple times, then 3 Mile Island would not have happened. Multiple human mistakes (refusing to fix defective valves to cut costs; repeatedly turning off or disabling safety functions, etc) created that meltdown.
Ian Sample talks us through all the main developments.
Enclosing reactors in a sarcophagus has been discussed long ago by others who correctly forecasted how bad things were. And how much worse it will become. However Ian Sample says something I only heard for the first time. The meltdown in Reactor 2 may have pooled at the bottom of that containment vessel. If true, events are far worse than anything I had posted.
TEPCO has yet to have even one better day. All 19 days have been worse than the day before. Management has yet to plan to avert future failures - to get ahead of events. They cannot even get a workable solution for pumping water out of basements. Obviously more water was in the basement than what condensors could hold. Anyone could have done that arithmetic. So what did TEPCO do? Waited for condensors to fill. Only then began looking for another place to put that water.
Basements contained water weeks ago. On what future week was TEPCO going to plan for disposing of radioactive water? That water means critical cooling and monitoring equipment cannot be accessed.
Well, TEPCO finally decided yesterday to apologize for their mess. Either that means top management has been two weeks in utter denial. Or TEPCO managmenent knows how much worse things are about to become. Is TEPCO trying to spin things in advance of more bad news?
All four plants cannot be repaired because TEPCO took 2 weeks to connect electricity. How long does it take your electric company to provide electricity? Maybe those reactors no longer have a good credit rating. So TEPCO's finance department would not approve an account; refused to authorize electric service. Would you sell electricity to an institution that could not pay?
If you own a nuclear power plant, always pay your electric bills. Otherwise your plant might die from a meltdown. Cheaper is to pay every electric bill on time. A sarcophagus and funeral services for a dead nuclear reactor are expensive.
Some plants are less forgiving. Other plants let humans make more mistakes. The Venus Fly Trap is a classic example. Had human not intervened multiple times, then The Venus Fly Trap would not have happened. Multiple human mistakes (refusing to fix defective valves to cut costs; repeatedly turning off or disabling safety functions, etc) created that meltdown.
FTFY:p:
Dear Tepco,
Please get your shit together.
Love,
Earth
When working in high radiation environments, a dosimeter for every human is essential. TEPCO said the earthquake destroyed many dosimeters. Left were maybe only 380 dosimeters. Another 200 workers were without any such safety devices. Two weeks later, and TEPCO still could not find dosimeters anywhere in the world? Nonsense. TEPCO management has been that dumb. Classic of what one should expect from people trained in business schools. Not trained in how the work gets done.
How long does it take to make a phone call, order some dosimeters, and fly them in via Fed Ex? Weeks if a decision is made by incompetent management. Hours when the Japanese press finally exposed another example of why these nuclear plants exploded.
Everyone knows those plants must be disassembled to get access to fuel rods. Everyone knows work will require use of land (kilometers) around those plants. Competent management was preparing land around those plants over a week ago when radiation was safe. Same work should be ongoing every hour now. Because anyone with minimal knowledge knows radiation levels around each plant will only increase. Do it now while it is easy. Pave access roads. Fields for depositing destroyed building materials. Trenches and protection buildings for thousands of workers. Water collection facilities for rain water washing those radiative materials. Do it now while radiation levels are lower. While it is easy. So that space and access during the hard part is available and ready.
But that means TEPCO management is planning. Doing what is necessary to stay ahead of the problem. They are not. TEPCO management is doing what any business school trained manager would do to even murder seven Challenger astronauts. For miles around those plants should be facilities necessary to disassemble or even bury those reactors inside a sarcophagus. And facilities even for thousands of workers to shower off radioactive materials. More important, large pipes to provide a most important material - water without salt.
View what is happening. Nothing. It took two weeks to decide to route electric wires to the plants - a half day job if radiation did not complicate construction. Will it take months to decide to disassemble debris to get to and remove fuel rods? Obviously. TEPCO management could not even order a few hundred dosimeters. TEPCO is probably worried about the costs - as any good buiness school graduate is taught to always solve. Costs are always more important than how the work gets done. So four nuclear reactors exploded.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. Not another one.
Kids who learn by fixing things would have known this in junior high school. To fix something, one must first define the problem. Four weeks after the problem existed, Japanese are finally admitting hard facts of their nuclear power plant problems. Days ago, the Japanese government said their nuclear plant meltdowns and explosions were a category seven event. Highest on the scale. Chernobyl also was a category seven event.
Japanese government only raised their rating from four to seven after having been provided accurate data. Fukushima may have only been 10% of the radiation emitted by Chernobyl. But Chernobyl was a complete plant meltdown and fire.
What is not reported is why the Japanese government only recently obtained these numbers. Tokyo Electric (TEPCO) was doing what any business school graduate would do. Lie. Pretend everything is under control.
GPU (Metropolitan Edison) did the exact same lying during Three Mile Island. Like Fukushima, a 3 Mile Island event was created first by a cost control mentality followed by denials at the highest levels of management. Three Mile Island was only a category 5 event because Jimmy Carter and the NRC commissioner immediately took 3 Mile Island away from the only reason for that failure - GPU management. Carter, et al did what any manager with basic intelligence and technical experience would do because GPU management also were business school graduates. With virtually no idea how electricity or nuclear power works.
It took the Japanese government four weeks to acknowledge what was even posted here weeks ago. TEPCO management must be lying even to itself. Or are doing exactly what is taught in business schools. Either way, one (of three) Japanese disaster that was completely created by humans is directly traceable to top management. And to a lesser extent, to a Japanese government who did not recognize how incompetent and dishonest TEPCO management has been.
No solution was possible because TEPCO management not only denied the problems. But apparently subverted facts to do what any business school graduate would do to even lie about Mission Accomplished. First step to any solution means a problem must first be defined.
Tokyo Electric (TEPCO) was doing what any business school graduate would do. Lie. Pretend everything is under control.
BP just did the same thing in the gulf.
Tw's vicious prejudices: check; noted. It is not merely that he is plagued with economic illiteracy even unto voting Democratic habitually, nor that he is incapable of politics: this man does not play well with humans. The prisons are full of men of that description.
Now to something a tad more constructive: that event scale goes to 7 and stops. Nuclear activists of some kind interviewed on NPR recently said that while Fukushima is rated a 7, Chernobyl's release of radionuclides would rate about a 10 or 11 -- not exactly parity.
A poster on another board I frequent put it this way:
I was listening to NPR last night driving home and someone from some nuclear group was speaking about the Japanese reactor. When asked about it being the same level of disaster as Chernobyl he stated what we need to know is that the scale only has 7 levels and once you meet the top level there is nothing beyond that but if you compare the two's leak levels Japan is still only 1/10th the amount of contamination that Chernobyl produced mainly because when Chernobyl blew up it scattered more radiation than a leak like Japan is producing. He said if Japan is a 7 Chernobyl would be a 10 or 11 if the scale was adjusted.
Sourcing on this is not yet very tight -- what knoweth the 'Net? Is this spokesman wrong or right?
No matter who's right or wrong, it's a disaster.
From the Washington Post of 13 May 2011 is confirmation of what was obvious only one week after the Japanese Earthquake:
Nuclear watchdog points to gaps in U.S. safety regulations
On Thursday, Fukushima's operator, Tokyo Electric Power Co., announced that the Unit 1 reactor suffered worse damage than the company had previously acknowledged. New data show that the reactor's uranium fuel melted, slumped to the bottom of the primary containment vessel and burned a hole that released radioactive water, a spokesperson said at a news conference in Tokyo.
Once uranium burns through a zirconium lining, then hydrogen is released and massive radiation is released.
TEPCO, et al knew far more radiation was leaking than they would report. So much that only a reactor vessel breach could explain it. An example of a business school graduate more worried about being politically correct rather than honest.
What happened in Fukishima is also what would have happened in Three Mile Island had Carter and NRC director Harold Denton not taken that plant away from GPU Nuclear (Met Ed). GPU was doing the same denials and business school spin that TEPCO would do 32 years later. As usual, management was the only reason why both nuclear plants suffered vastly different consequences.
From the NY Times on 17 May 2011 is what happens when executives do not make decisions:
In Japan Reactor Failings, Danger Signs for the U.S.
Government officials have also suggested that one of the primary causes of the explosions was a several-hour delay in a decision to use the vents, as Tokyo Electric managers agonized over whether to resort to emergency measures that would allow a substantial amount of radioactive materials to escape into the air. ...
The seriousness of the crisis at the Fukushima plant became evident within hours of the quake and the tsunami that rushed over the plant's sea wall.
Just 12 hours after the quake, the pressure inside Reactor No. 1 had reached roughly twice the maximum pressure the unit had been designed to withstand, raising fears that the vessels that house fuel rods would rupture, setting a possible meltdown in motion. With the pressure high, pumping in additional cooling water also was not possible
The government became rattled enough that it ordered Tokyo Electric to begin venting. But even then, Tokyo Electric's executives continued to deliberate, according to a person close to government efforts to bring the reactors under control. The exchanges became so heated, the person said, that the company's nuclear chief, Vice President Sakae Muto, and the stricken plant's director, Masao Yoshida, engaged in a "shouting match" - a rarity in reserved Japan.
Mr. Yoshida wanted to vent as soon as possible, but Mr. Muto was skeptical whether venting would work, ... The executives did not give the order to begin venting until Saturday - more than 17 hours after the tsunami struck and 6 hours after the government order to vent. ...
Had they vented then, batteries still would have provided electricity. By stalling, the vents no longer had electric power to operate.
The valves are designed so they can also be opened manually, but by that time, workers found radiation levels near the venting system at Reactor No. 1 were already too high to approach, according to Tokyo Electric's records. ...
The results of the failed venting were disastrous.
Reactor No. 1 exploded first, on Saturday, the day after the earthquake. Reactor No. 3 came next, on Monday. And No. 2 exploded early Tuesday morning. ...
Tokyo Electric in recent days has acknowledged that damage at the plant was worse than previously thought, with fuel rods most likely melting completely at Reactors 1, 2 and 3 in the early hours of the crisis, ...
Well duhhhh. Obvious by the end of the first week. Pressure was twice what the reactor vessel was supposed to withstand. And still top management could not permit what plant managers knew had to be done ASAP. How many employees did the Vice President plan on killing? Or could he not even make that decision?
No TEPCO employees have died from radiation. Two have had coronary events whilst working at the damaged plant.
Yeah, but they will eventually. Mark my words, it may be 15 or 30 years down the road but sooner or later they will die. TEPCO management planned it that way.
It's like the Dim Mak.
[YOUTUBE]l50O54rn3PE[/YOUTUBE]
The government became rattled enough that it ordered Tokyo Electric to begin venting. But even then, Tokyo Electric's executives continued to deliberate, according to a person close to government efforts snip. The exchanges became so heated, the person said,
one unnamed person's account...
At Reactor No. 2, workers tried to manually open the safety valves, but pressure did not fall inside the reactor, making it unclear whether venting was successful, the records show.
But the emergency vents were fitted with numerous safeguards, some of which require electricity to work, rendering them useless when all power is lost at a nuclear plant, experts say.
The design is the result of conflicting schools of thought among United States nuclear officials, said Michael Friedlander, a former senior operator at several American nuclear power plants.
Mr. Friedlander said, referring to the Nuclear Regulatory Commission: “You have the N.R.C. containment isolation guys who want containment closed, always, under every conceivable accident scenario, and then you’ve got the reactor safety guys who need containment to be vented under severe accident scenarios. It is a very controversial system.”
85% of all problems directly traceable to ENGINEERS!
Also from that link:
American officials had said early on that reactors in the United States would be safe from such disasters because they were equipped with new, stronger venting systems. But Tokyo Electric Power Company, which runs the plant, now says that Fukushima Daiichi had installed the same vents years ago.
interesting read.
85% of all problems directly traceable to ENGINEERS!
They were probably traitors to the cause and also had MBA's.
From Bloomberg News on 24 May 2011 is what Ken Nakajima of Kyoto University defined. "Now, they have confirmed what everyone expected."
Tepco Says Fuel Rods Melted Down in Two More Reactors at Fukushima Plant
Tokyo Electric Power Co. said fuel rods melted in two more reactors at its Fukushima nuclear plant, indicating for the first time that damage from the March 11 earthquake and tsunami is matching worse-case-scenarios.
Fuel rods in reactors 2 and 3 had almost complete meltdowns, spokesman Junichi Matsumoto told reporters in Tokyo today. That’s in line with U.S. assessments in the early days of the crisis that suggested damage to the station was more severe than Tokyo Electric officials estimated.
TEPCO claims to end this crisis in six to nine months. Amazing that anyone would believe anything from TEPCO VP Muta. Three Mile Island with a working cooling system and only a partial meltdown took a year to cool. And another nine years to clean out. Three TEPCO reactors without working cooling systems will be cooled and then cleaned out in nine months? At what point does the obvious finally become obvious? They are still lying even to themselves.
Amazing that anyone would believe anything from TEPCO VP Muta.
Uh, who is?
At the stricken Fukushima nuclear power plant, a robot sent into the building housing Reactor No. 1 on Saturday detected the highest levels of radiation measured since the crisis began on March 11.
According to the Japan Times, The Tokyo Electric Power Company (TEPCO) reported that radiation levels in the air around Reactor 1 were at 4000 millisieverts per hour, an exposure level equivalent to approximately 40,000 chest x-rays. TEPCO says it has no plans to send workers into the area because of its dangerously high radioactivity.
On Friday, a spokesman for TEPCO announced that steam was rising from underneath the reactor building. That afternoon, Japanese national television carried blurry footage of smoke rising from an opening in the floor.
Link
didn't see any of this on tv this am.
Dana, Zen ... I'm interested if it was on BBC or .... ( related other thread )
They're sending robots in because it's too dangerous for people?
PETR isn't going to like that.
They're sending robots in because it's too dangerous for people?
In Reactor 1, the containment building was too dangerous for people within the first day. But TEPCO was denying for weeks that a meltdown had occurred.
For some strange reason, operators turned off the emergency cooling system. Then could not turn it back on. People had to go into that building to open valves on the second floor and in the basement. Second floor valves opened immediately. Many people kept going into the basement because those valves would not open manually. And each person who tried was exceeding his radiation levels.
Only hours after the last person left, Reactor 1 exploded. And still TEPCO denied there was any meltdown.
Japan is world leaders in robots. But had to go to America to find one that could withstand the radiation ... that did not exist because a meltdown and containment breech never happened.
Just wondering if Richard Nixon fathered any kids in Japan.
We know without doubt that all three nuclear reactors suffered meltdowns. TEPCO refused to acknowledge that for six months. The first meltdown was probably Fukushima Diachi One - sometime before 11 PM or less than 8 hours after an 11 March Tsunami.
Curious is to remember how you thought you saw things back then. Then read how many remains in denial
during this discussion. Appreciate why some knew what, when, while so much spin from subjective sources were outright lies. On 12 March,
Due to insufficient information, one of the five reactors is starting to sound more and more like Three Mile Island. Apparently at least one meter of the boron rods are above water. And some melting has already occured inside that reactor core.
And yet a week later, denials continued.
On 12 March was
Meanwhile, you should have seen something far more serious. One nuclear plant was in a Three Mile Island event over 24 hours ago. And like Three Mile Island, the 'powers that be' are only saying what they know. During Three Mile Island, that was MBAs lying because they had no idea how a power plant works. Lied so much that reporters openly ignore Met Ed management and openly said so in their reports. We now know Three Mile Island technical people were openly crying for help from the very beginning. And Met Ed MBAs ignore those requests due to complete technical ignorance. Question remains what Tokyo Electric management is. From what they have said, it was obvious before my previous post that the core had melted.
Let's be clear. Three Mile Island was dependent for one year on pumps that were damaged and could have failed at any time. Then the event would have restarted. Yes, Three Mile Island was a crisis for a year. Fukushima One had no way to pump coolant into it. Whether any cooling system can be restored is unknown. We know the building containing the reactor core exploded. And nobody is saying why. That is troubling.
There will be dangerous radiation leaks. Only question is how much.
Two other plants are also suffering less coolant failures.
Just like Three Mile Island, the technical people were crying for help. And getting almost none. Top management was remaining in denial. We now know the tech people in Fukushima resorted to removing and using batteries from their cars only hours after the Tsunami in a desperate attempt to save the reactors. Knew something far worse had happened early on. Technicians in radiation suits that night tried to enter the containment building of Fukushima One. When they opened the door, a large and aggressive white cloud spewed out. They slammed that door immediately. Were not able to take any radiation measurements. Did not dare enter that building. Did not yet know for certain that the entire core was completely exposed and melted. It was not just a partial or near meltdown as they feared. It was a complete meltdown. So TEPCO management denied everything.
TEPCO management said the reactor was still completely covered in water. That white cloud suggested something different.
By 16 March,
Fukushima 4 exploded. Top management so removed from reality (as happened at 3 Mile Island) tried to blame that explosion on a hydrogen leakage from Fukushima 3. Meanwhile, 3 workers had already died at these plants. Denials continued even in The Cellar. "The tw speculation is off the charts here; reaction containment has been breeched, and plumes of misinformation, nonsense and confusion can be seen for miles." And "Nope, the NY Times story is wrong. There have been no deaths at the plant." Everyone should learn why so many stayed so far in denial.
By the next morning (12 March), Fukushima engineers vented radioactive gasses from Fukushima 1 in a desperate attempt to avert a containment explosion. We know that these gasses created dangerous radiation levels far beyond the 10 kilometer evacuation area. We know these evacuations were ordered because Fukushima was venting radioactive gases created by a meltdown. Spewing radiation especially far into towns to the NW. We know TEPCO management knew this. And said nothing.
In less than 24 hours, many teams were addressing so many issues as to sound similar to chaos during the Battle of the Bulge. Without any support from TEPCO in Tokyo, employees were performing actions at great personal risk to avert a much larger disaster. That many employees had long since consumed excessive radiation from a meltdown that did not happen.
Radiation levels in Fukushima 1 were so high only 15 hours after the Tsunami that multiple teams could not reach valves to vent radioactive gas into the countryside. Even a week later, many here were still denying all this had happened.
By the end of the first week, we knew (contrary to TEPCO top management claims) that all technical people had already destroyed three nuclear reactors in a desperate effort to avoid an even larger nuclear accident. Salt water was being used only 23 hours after the Tsunami. Because the people who think like engineers knew how bad things were that quickly. Obvious less than a week later only to the fewer who learned how to quickly identify reality.
Once TEPCO was pouring seawater inside each reactor, then that reactor was being trashed. They were using their last and most destructive option; ... Because events were worse than a rosy picture they were painting. The first of major problems were known on Saturday - less than 24 hours after the earthquake.
Meanwhile, US government officials believe at least one pool containing spent nuclear material is completely dry. That means melting and outgassing radioactivity. The only reason that explains multiple explosions and fires. No reason for this other than mistakes (ignorance) at the highest levels of management. Danger from fuel stored outside the containment vessel is also contrary to what TEPCO wanted everyone to believe. ...
Bottom line reality. Three nuclear reactors are trashed. A fourth is now so radioactive as to be dangerous to human life. Unknown is how operators in two adjacent reactors are dealing with periodic high (but not deadly) levels of radioactivity that must be inside their control rooms. Bottom line - TEPCO has been outputting so much contrary and misleading information that even Japan's Prime Minister had enough - privately scolded TEPCO management for intentional misinformation or complete technical ignorance.
We now know the Prime Minister did not just scold TEPCO. TEPCO was going to evacuate all plants. TEPCO management was so incompetent as to literally sacrifice the Fukushima Diachi countryside to major meltdowns and breeches. The Japanese Prime Minister literally stormed into TEPCO HQs and personally yelled point blank into the faces of TEPCO top management. Only then did TEPCO decide to continue trying to save the plants. Then another nuclear plant exploded. BTW, at what point does a well proven fact become obvious? 85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management. Especially those who use the subjective reasoning techniques taught in business schools.
Last week in September contained two significant events. The United States, in a continuing move to subvert science, shut down its last major research tool into quantum physics. An example of how a technically naive top management avidly wants to destroy future jobs. And TEPCO announced that all three melted plants have finally cooled to less than 100 degrees C. As if the temperature of steam is significant. They ignore that this cooling process must continue for another ten years.
Those numbers do not mean these reactors are safe. In fact, the next week, radioactive Xenon was detected. Xenon suggests that nuclear fission is still ongoing inside one reactor. But TEPCO needed the 'safe' announcement to meet their
declaration six months ago of solving the problem by September. As if a TEPCO number (212 degrees F) and spin means a deadline was met.
Up top, were hard facts from 3 Mile Island. The event could have restarted even a year later had a cooling pump failed. None of the 3 Fukushima reactors are safe. An emergency cooling process must continue for another ten years. TEPCO just forgot to mention that part. But then honesty never exists in an organization where profits (or the political agenda) are more important than the product or the nation. This was obvious only seven days after the tsunami and while so many were still denying reality.
Multiple nuclear meltdown was an event created by men not doing their job to avert what was unnecessary.
Appreciate that many can read the same facts and not see the reality.
[aside] tw is his own parody, really. not really cricket. [/aside]
[continues in a next post]
[continues from the previous post]
An interesting lesson on how reality is obvious only with the right attitude and fundamental training. The situation in Fukushima was so bad so quickly that technicians removed batteries from their cars hours after the Tsunami in a desperate attempt to save the plants. Weeks later, and due to intentional misinformation, many even in the Cellar were still denying that reality. Things were so desperate, even two weeks after the Tsunami, that employees were still taking life threatening risks to save Japan from the plants. The situation was that desperate even weeks later.
I don't mean to be rude, but, um...aren't they supposed to be smarter than the average bear? Sorry if that's waisis.
They were not dumb. Despite so many comments here, Fukushima workers were trying to avert something far worse than what I had posted. Due to intentional misinformation (in the tradition of Saddam's WMDs, and BP's Macondo well), so many were still denying reality weeks after facts were presented bluntly (and without doubt) in the Cellar. Even Urbane Guerrilla was taking cheap shots a month later.
Curious are so many who remained in outright denial of a nuclear meltdown when facts with numbers made reality so obvious. Demonstrates that propaganda works so well. This thread makes interesting reading now that we know a minority (who demands hard facts with numbers) saw reality so quickly. A meltdown was obvious within days of the tsunami. But only to the few who have learned how to remove reality from so much propaganda. Who learned why subjective facts are so akin to lying.
What is not reported is why the Japanese government only recently obtained these numbers. Tokyo Electric (TEPCO) was doing what any business school graduate would do. Lie. Pretend everything is under control.
And so many actually believed those intentional lies. Even denied that TEPCO considered surrendering and evacuating Fukushima.
85% of all problems are traceable to top management - especially when they forget why hard facts and the numbers are so important. One should learn from this recent history. Ask yourself what you thought back then. Then go read the thread to see how accurately you really saw things.
Half a year later, and TEPCO is still slowly leaking facts about the severity of multiple meltdowns. We can only know this. What actually happened is far worse than what we know. Or what was posted in The Cellar. There were quite a few heroes. The ones who were heroes - we don't know any of their names. Nor the names of so many who were killed or are suffering radiation poisoning - from multiple meltdowns that were not happening.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
tw is his own parody.
Oh, tw's OK. You just have to get used to his eccentric style of posting. Often he posts about important stuff. You just need to run the post through your handy tw translator app. Now on sale for 19.95. ;)
Oh, tw's OK. You just have to get used to his eccentric style of posting. Often he posts about important stuff. You just need to run the post through your handy tw translator app. Now on sale for 19.95. ;)
85% of them are faulty, though
85% of them are faulty, though
So you are saying that Eastman Kodak is not going to bankruptcy? That GM has been making good, innovative cars for 30 years? That a Man to Mars and the $billions for Constellation/Orion/Ares makes sense? That an Idle Air Control Valve in a Honda Civic was OK? That George Jr was as honest as Nixon when he sent almost 5000 American soldiers to death? That Comcast did not attempt, on multiple occassions, to subvert the Internet (even skewing Skype packets to harm that service)? That wacko extremists did not all but try to get in a hot war with China? That the electric grid is failing and that CA has a serious energy shortage? That the USS Baatan did not sit for five days off of New Orleans denied permission to help rescue, support, feed, and house tens of thousands of desperate Americans? That Saddam had WMDs and was planning to attack the US?
Clearly those three Fukushima nuclear reactors did not melt down? Management clearly did not deny problems and make it worse?
Apparently it was all only fiction to co-write another Clancy novel. And Monster is only wrong about it 15% of the time. Unfortunately Monster's numbers are not very good. Since Urbane Guerrilla is wrong only 0% of the time.
see. fucking app failed again, Sam. or did it work for you there?
see. fucking app failed again, Sam. or did it work for you there?
Warning. Malware was embedded in that last post.
see. fucking app failed again, Sam. or did it work for you there?
Those damn apps are made in China and the quality can be variable. Mine kinda of works although I get baffled at times.
My top 4 fav tw posts:
1) the time I posted about my truck acting up and tw explained the problem almost exactly.
2) His early wmd posts. He was right about those
3) All the posts mentioning incompetent CEO's. tw hated CEO's way before it became fashionable.
4) He's right about W.
tw is like the cellar's pet nerd. ;)
see. fucking app failed again, Sam. or did it work for you there?
The app defaults to TW --> human. He put human talk in and got double human. It just needs a special reverse human --> TW setting.
Speaking of apps, there is now a geiger counter attachment and app for your iPhone.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-16/firm-makes-iphone-geiger-counter-for-worried-japanese/3674890
"Immediately after the disaster triggered by the earthquake and tsunami of March 11 in the north-east of the archipelago, the cheapest Geiger counters cost 60,000 yen ($780) and were hard to find," said Takuma Mori on the origins of the device made by Sanwa Corp.
The first models for iPhones will go on sale in the next few days priced at 9,800 yen ($127).
Oh, capitalism, you fickle mistress. One month you're slicing safety margins and causing cockups, the next you're responding to the needs you created. Y U so bipolar?
The Guardian
Dec 7, 2011
Tsunami that struck Japan in March resulted from merging waves
(CNN) -- The devastating wall of water that struck Japan in March was the result
of at least two waves that combined to create a more powerful tsunami, U.S. scientists said Monday.
Ocean ridges and mountain ranges below the surface of the water channeled
the waves created by the 9.0 magnitude earthquake off the coast of Japan,
bringing them together far out at sea to form a "merging tsunami,"
according to researchers from NASA and Ohio State University.
The above link has a video, but the animation was running
too quickly to appreciate what was happening.
It's hard to see the merging waves on the east side of the epicenter (blue area).
I stepped through and at 17 sec finally got the image below.
This shows two waves (red) with a sliver of yellow in between, just to the left of the blue area.
In the next images, those two red areas merge into a single red band moving towards shore.
NY Times
MARTIN FACKLER
12/14/11
Japan May Declare Control of Reactors, Over Serious Doubts
On Friday, a disaster-response task force headed by Prime Minister Yoshihiko Noda
will vote on whether to announce that the plant’s three damaged reactors
have been put into the equivalent of a “cold shutdown,” a technical term normally used
to describe intact reactors with fuel cores that are in a safe and stable condition.
Experts say that if it does announce a shutdown, as many expect,
it will simply reflect the government’s effort to fulfill a pledge
to restore the plant’s cooling system by year’s end and,
according to some experts, not the true situation.<snip>
And indeed, experts credit the operator, the Tokyo Electric Power Company, or Tepco,
with making progress in regaining control of the damaged reactors.
They say the plant’s makeshift new cooling system, built with the
help of American, French and Japanese companies, has managed to cool the reactors’ cores,
including the molten fuel attached to the outer containment vessels.<snip>
“Claiming a cold shutdown does not have much meaning for damaged reactors
like those at Fukushima Daiichi,” said Noboru Nakao, a nuclear engineering consultant
at International Access Corporation.<snip>
“At this point, I would be more worried about the contamination
than what’s happening inside the reactors,” said Murray E. Jennex,
an expert on nuclear containment at San Diego State University<snip>
“All it would take is one more earthquake or tsunami to
set Fukushima Daiichi back to square one,” Mr. Kudo said.
“Can we really call this precarious situation a cold shutdown?”
.
And now, in local news, local to the left coast that is:
First debris from Japanese quake/tsunami arrives on the Olympic Peninsula
PORT ANGELES — The first piece of debris that could be identified as washing up on the West Coast from the March 11 tsunami in Japan — a large black float — was found on a Neah Bay beach two weeks ago, Seattle oceanographers Curtis Ebbesmeyer and Jim Ingraham said Tuesday night.
Since then, the two researchers, known as DriftBusters Inc. — who have used flotsam to track wind and water currents in the Pacific since 1970 — have learned that the black, 55-gallon drum-sized floats also have been found on Vancouver Island.
Ebbesmeyer and Ingraham spoke to more than 100 people at Peninsula College and brought the float with them, along with examples of other items that may be showing up on beaches in the next year.
Tons of debris washed out to sea when a tsunami struck northern Japan after a massive magnitude-9.0 earthquake March 11.
About a quarter of the 100 million tons of debris from Japan is expected to make landfall on beaches from southern Alaska to California, possibly in volumes large enough to clog ports, Ebbesmeyer said.
NHK has desperately tried to get facts on Fukushima with great frustration. TEPCO finally permitted NHK to interview TEPCO employees if names and faces were omitted. Their story is one of desperation.
This post defined then what was ongoing in all three plants. All three had core meltdowns.
TEPCO management would not let Fukushima's plant manager vent radioactive steam when it was possible. By the time top management relented, Fukishima had no battery power. As was known even back then. All eight Safety Release valves must be operated by 120 volts remotely. But due to reasons (TEPCO is still obstructing information) unknown, none of the eight SR valves would operate. So pressure inside the containment vessel was at well above 7 atmospheres (100 PSI) and climbing. With no way to release that pressure, operators knew a resulting explosion of the containment building would also kill them.
Fukushima needed 12 volt batteries. Ten per valve to create 120 volts. But TEPCO only sent them 2 volt batteries. Thousands sat 55 km away. But TEPCO management could not grasp why engineers needed those batteries delivered immediately. Meanwhile, TEPCO sent two volt batteries by helicopter.
Had TEPCO management understood what was needed, then Self Defense Force helicopters could have delivered them immediately. But TEPCO management had a business school mentality. They did not need to know what the engineers were saying or needed. And had no grasp of the emergency - as even US government officials openly complained.
All Safety Release valves refused to open. Meaning the containment vessel could not be vented. Therefore no water could be pumped inside and the core was exposed.
Third party experts speculate that pressure inside the containment vessel was so high that all eight valves were stuck. After all, when operators say those valves must be open now, management with near zero knowledge should have said yes. By the time management finally decided (after agreessive arguments), pressures were too high; those valves could no longer open even with 12 volt batteries taken from cars in the parking lot. Just another example of plant destruction directly traceable to top management.
Around the time of
this post, the containment building for Fukushima 2 exploded. Photographed is the largest of the radiation clouds emitted from a plant that so many knew was not in meltdown. On 14 March, the control room shook during the explosion. Operators in always dark control rooms viewed containment vessel pressure gauges. Zero. At the time, they probably thought they were all about to die.
To this day, TEPCO will not admit to any breaches even though facts posted early in this thread made those breaches obvious. What is obvious: TEPCO management, doing what is taught in business schools, only frustrated the Fukushima staff with inaction, indecision ... TEPCO management could not even deliver 12 volt batteries or Dosimeters. A lack of batteries is cited specifically for the Fukushima 3 explosion.
It will take 40 years to disassemble all four plants. Three had known core meltdowns back when it was obvious and posted here. TEPCO refused to admit to any core meltdowns for weeks.
Some designs in those plants averted a Chernobyl scale disaster. In particular the containment building contained breaches of the containment vessel in two plants. Radiation levels of 29 sieverts were already known to be inside a containment building that many said did not have containment vessel breaches. A human exposed to 28 sieverts would die in minutes.
Operators expected to die if a core meltdown resulted in a building breach. For reasons still not explained, the resulting breaches did not result in deadly on-site radiation. But did release dangerous radiation into regions that nearby townspeople had evacuated into. Or is TEPCO still quashing facts?
For the want of permission, but a few words, four reactors were lost. Because a boss had no idea. He is supposed to work for his employees. To know what they are doing and why. Instead, he told the Fukushima plant manager to destroy four nuclear power plants. And still denies that is what he really did.
Do not change anything until important facts are obtained. Fixing without identifying the problem can exponentially complicate the problem.
For the want of permission, but a few words, four reactors were lost. Because a boss had no idea.
Which is it? How do you know that the top management wasn't simply waiting for more facts in a well-advised attempt to avoid complicating the problem exponentially?
Which is it? How do you know that the top management wasn't simply waiting for more facts in a well-advised attempt to avoid complicating the problem exponentially?
In case A, informed top management knew time was not a factor. In case B, informed management (engineers or any layman) knows time is a critical factor. Only bean counters could not tell the difference. But I bet those bean counters knew what time to go home. After all, time cards are more important than the actual product.
When a nuclear power plant has no electricity and no cooling, then doing nothing exponentially complicates everything. Top management did the worst thing they could do. They waited for facts that they should have already known. AS top management also did at Three Mile Island. It was their job to already know this stuff. And would have if they came from where the work gets done.
Meanwhile, what happens to an anomaly in an unchanged computer? It does nothing harmful.
They could not even dispatch thousands of 12 volt battery - desperately needed, stored, readily available, and only 55 km away. Business school training makes it impossible to expedite solutions. Even a layman can appreciate doing nothing was only the worst possible solution. Patton (in WWII) well understood this concept. And created the Red Ball Express. His job - maximum support to the employees.
Engineers at the plant and even its top manager said action was necessary immediately. In communism and other corrupt institutions, the employee works for the boss. The antonym: when an employee says this must be done, a responsible boss then does everything possible to support that employee.
But the boss had no idea how things worked. Had no idea that time was an exponentially critical factor. The definition of corrupt management. It was top managements job to know how critical time was. They even spent two weeks to decide to run power lines to plants that had no electricity. How dumb is that?
In case I missed it somewhere... how come there weren't 12 volt batteries kept at the location just in case something happened? Why would they need to get batteries flown in in the first place? Contingency plan and all that?
It seems to me that recklessly DOING SOMETHING BECAUSE THIS SHIT IS URGENT in the case of risk of a nuclear meltdown is as bad or worse than waiting until the right thing to do is known, as you have preached many times. You have a habit of speaking in absolutes, superlatives, making declamatory statements with such... rigidity.
I'm pointing out that your "investigate before taking action" "you're doing it rong" theme song doesn't always apply. How do you know how urgent the restoration of normal function to someone's computer is? And sometimes "good enough" is good enough. You seem to have considerable expertise in some areas, but it doesn't translate equally well into all the subjects on which you inveigh, be they catalytic converters, power supplies, refraction of light or nuclear power plants.
Context matters. Success is often a range, not a point. "There's more than one way to skin a cat." I wish you could be more flexible in your thinking and problem solving, but I fear you might break if you tried.
In case I missed it somewhere... how come there weren't 12 volt batteries kept at the location just in case something happened? Why would they need to get batteries flown in in the first place? Contingency plan and all that?
They had multiple connections to the 500,000 volt grid and 275,000 volt grid for backup power. Something like 14 onsite generators. And about eight hours of battery power. That meant TEPCO management in Tokyo had almost eight hours to learn facts and made decisions. Even after being yelled at by the Plant Manager (something very unusual in Japanese culture), TEPCO refuse to permit venting. By the time TEPCO management made a decision, there were no batteries left charged.
Well operators worked frantically trying to save Reactor 2 for three days. That's how long TEPCO still did not provide those 12 volts batteries. No batteries. And no generators.
Is that hard to fathom? Not for me. I have seen business school trained managers do things that stupid routinely. Because they have no idea what the words really mean. Because they did not come from where the work get done.
The NHK report is scathing in that it exposes more facts all but withheld by TEPCO. NHK apparently had to limit so much information only to events in Reactors 3 and 4. NHK quotes on-site employees as citing 'no batteries' as a specific reason for the explosion in Reactor 3.
The NHK report is scathing
And the link to that is where?
I see you quoted yourself a couple times, :eyebrow:
but nothing to the actual report.
So wait, does that mean a woman's body should've shut those reactors down?
You can't put too much woman in a nuclear reactor.
You can't put too much woman in a nuclear reactor.
That only works with breeder reactors.
I'll be here with a half-life of 12 days, try the boron.
try the boron.
tw? That's not nice!
[COLOR="LemonChiffon"](I find her guilty)[/COLOR]
You can't put too much woman in a nuclear reactor.
:lol:
NHK, two years later, continues exposing unreported facts about Fukishima. Latest revelations come from research performed by NHK by 'secretly' obtaining engineering documents.
First, nuclear power plants have passive cooling systems (called isolation condensers) that permit a plant to cool itself passively. No electricity required. But, for reasons that remain unknown and undiscussed, those passive cooling systems were not operational. And those systems had never been tested in 40 years.
Since the system had never been tested, then no one knew what a working cooling system looks like. Management 'assumed' a trace amount of steam meant it was working. When passive cooling works, the noise is quite loud. Steam fills the sky all around the plant. Trace amounts of steam, assumed to be a working cooling system, meant a complete failure.
In both company and an independent investigations, no mention of these passive cooling systems. And yet that alone could have averted the nuclear meltdown in Fukishima Daiche One that occurred within 24 hours. (A meltdown that the company denied for weeks even though it was obvious even to layman in days.)
To keep water in Fukishima 3, fire engines were connected to pump 400 tons of water into the reactor. Operators knew water was leaking elsewhere. And again, company investigations ignore this. So again, NHK did independent investigations. Discovered the leak and why it occurred. Explained why so much water was discovered later in condensors.
A pump, operating not as designed, had leaked 55% of the incoming water, through a tiny 1.5 inch pipe, into the condensors. NHK recorded an Italian laboratory duplicating this failure. Had only 25% of the water leaked, then Fukishima 3 could have been saved. Another fact somehow lost in TEPCO's investigations and another by the government. Another in a long list of facts that NHK discovered 'overlooked' by TEPCO and government investigations.
In the US, identical plants (ie 9 Mile Island) test their passive cooling systems every four years. Have obtained mobile pumps and installed dedicated pipes so that external cooling can be performed directly. These potential weaknesses are not unique to Fukishima. But NHK is demonstrating a serious problem with honesty at the higher levels of TEPCO management. And questionable investigations by Japanese Nuclear Regulators. 85% of all problems ...
Shocking were comments by top TEPCO people who accuse TEPCO employees of having insufficient knowledge of basic concepts. Anyone with any industrial or military experience knows that attitude and knowledge must come from top management. Can management actually blame employees for what is obvious a major management created disaster? Apparently that still is their attitude.
This NHK report is the third in a series exposing lack of clarity or intentionally convoluted reports from TEPCO (whose management created the Fukishima disaster) and from government regulators.
Do you mean 3 mile island, or 9 mile point?
Nine mile point is in Oswego, on lake Ontario, one of GE's first generation BWR designs.
... But NHK is demonstrating a serious problem with honesty at the higher levels of TEPCO management...
That's so surprising given the Japanese government's reputation for transparency, candidness, and lack of guile.
That's so surprising given the Japanese government's reputation for transparency, candidness, and lack of guile.
That may be a Japanese attitude. But that clearly was not TEPCO management's attitude. Problems were apparent and discussed here especially on and after 14 March 2011. The Japanese Prime Minster personally stormed into TEPCO headquarters to personally order them to not abandon those plants. After a meltdown was even obvious here, weeks later, TEPCO finally admitted to those meltdowns.
Read that at least one potential Three Mile Island situation had started on 12 Mar 2011 (day after the quake). By 14 Mar, a meltdown was apparent.
In hindsight, Reactor One had already exposed and melted its core when Fukishima Three and Two were following - as discussed here:
Quake/Tsunami
NHK makes government nuclear regulators also look evasive and misleading.
Nine Mile
Point (only Unit One) and Fukishima Daichi were similar designs constructed about the same time. Its not the designs that are a problem. Fukishima had a management problem as posts after 11 Mar 2011 demonstrate. NHK's documentaries also demonstrate.
Mismanagement was also the reason for Three Mile Island. A disaster averted only because Pres Carter ordered Denton to discover what was happening. Denton discovered that GPU mismanagement was so gross as to personally take ownership of that plant - without authorization.
People are quick to blame the plant(s) rather than reasons why a problem turns into a major disaster.
FFF, you forgot to use these.
[sarcasm] [/sarcasm]
Nine Mile Point (only Unit One) and Fukishima Daichi were similar designs constructed about the same time. Its not the designs that are a problem.
That's debatable, while the Boiling Water Reactor design has been operating for some time without many
major incidents, I still feel the more expensive Pressurized Water Reactor is a much safer design. The PWR design provides less opportunity for the management to create problems, and makes their 85% smaller in number.
FFF, you forgot to use these.
I did "air quotes" but I guess no one saw them. :(
The PWR design provides less opportunity for the management to create problems, and makes their 85% smaller in number.
That's a concept for all technologies. The idea is to constantly innovate. Learn from experience. Even upgrade first generation plants (PWR or BWR) so that problems require less assumptions and less management decisions.
One need only view the automobile. As it becomes more complex, knowledge, decisions, and actions performed by a driver to keep a car running have become massively less. A driver no longer adjusts spark plug timing.
Nine Mile Point plant has been modified so that external pumps can be connected directly to a reactor from outside. A modification made because they learned from Fukishima. Similar to a standpipe for every commercial building. So that portable pumps (ie fire truck) can connect water directly inside the building (or reactor) without any planning or attachments.
In the case of reactor 3, nobody knew a small pump's check valve would remain open. Reactor 3 needed at least 300 tons of water to avert a meltdown. It only got maybe 180 tons of the 400 pumped in. Due to complexity (and other factors such as no lights and high radioactivity), operators could not know of their mistake.
If top management does up front planning, then unforseen problems do not become disasters. If top management had tested passive cooling (as management does in Nine Mile Point every four years), then a Reactior 1 meltdown (on 12 Mar 2011) probably would have been averted. And management would not have erroneously assumed (and told operators) that two passive cooling systems were working.
Primary purpose of a third generation nuclear reactor is to make the system even more fool proof. To make mistakes even less likely. Mistakes will always happen. Unfortunately, top management must understand the number one reason why a most fool proof plant still creates a disaster: top management.
How does any system get fixed when management obfuscates facts? Exactly why informed (and therefore patriotic) citizens listen and learn from the news. Those on 15 Mar 2011 who still believed TEPCO myths must learn from their mistakes. Learn why they were so easily deceived by spin and lies when facts that clearly indicated meltdowns had occurred.
Read this discussion back then. Each reader should ask whether they saw the facts or were easily deceived back then.
Japan should learn, from their NHK reports, of ongoing obfuscation or coverups. Every American should also learn whether their knowledge and information came from responsible sources.
Goes right back to Saddam's WMDs. Notice how few bothered to stand up for the American soldier. How few tried to protect lives of American servicemen by identifying spin or outright lies from George Jr's administration. Almost 5000 died because so many Americans did not do their job as citizens. Unfortunately too many still did not learn from history. Did not learn what is necessary for any layman to have informed knowledge. Did not learn both who and why is the source of most disasters.
Fukishima is another event in history so that everyone can learn how reality works and how to avert future failures.
BTW, probably not obvious. This also addresses another topic about
socialism vs communism vs capitalism.
Hey, no problem, spring is in the air, the flowers in bloom, and the Fukushimi daisies are growing.
The tv news is saying that about 10% of the houses in (Moore ?) Oklahoma have "safe rooms"
It seems to me that with the "tornado alley" reputation of Oklahoma and Red River Valley,
this % is very low, and I wonder if there is a belief that they are too expensive.
Safe rooms can be built to be "usable" in the daily life of the family.
So on a cost per sq ft, this is what FEMA says is average...
Q16. What is the cost of installing a safe room in a new home or small business?
A16. Costs for construction vary across the United States
The cost for constructing a safe room that can double as a master closet,
bathroom, or utility room inside a new home or small business
ranges from approximately $6,600 to $8,700 (in 2011 dollars).
This cost range is applicable to the basic designs in FEMA P-320 (FEMA, 2008a)
for an 8-foot by 8-foot safe room (approximately 64 square feet of protected space).
Larger, more refined designs for greater comfort cost more,
with 14‑foot by 14-foot safe rooms ranging in cost from approximately
$12,000 to $14,300.
The cost of the safe room can vary significantly, depending on the following factors:
* The size of the safe room
* The location of the safe room within the home or small business
* The number of exterior home walls used in the construction of the safe room
* The type of door used
* The type of foundation on which the safe room is constructed
* The location of the home or small business within the United States
Since (unless the Republicans have killed them :rolleyes:) there are federal grants to help pay for construction, state tax credits, etc.
It seems to me that $10/sq ft is a lot less expensive than
the sq footage in the remainder of the house, either new or retrofit.
Yeah, building codes should be changed so that new construction in high risk areas has appropriate safe rooms. This is a failure of local and state government, which are the government entities responsible for building codes. There are lots of easy and inexpensive ways to incorporate a shelter in a new house, such as under the front steps.
Yeah, building codes should be changed so that new construction in high risk areas has appropriate safe rooms. This is a failure of top management, which are the government entities responsible for building codes. There are lots of easy and inexpensive ways to incorporate a shelter in a new house, such as under the front steps.
You'd think people would want the the things but we all deny reality to some extent.
You'd think people would want the the things but we all deny reality to some extent.
Everyone made it to the storm shelter except Dorothy. As a result, Dorothy has been famous for almost 100 years.
You too can enjoy her success. Have no storm shelter. Then after the next tornado, you too can see lions and tigers and beats. My My. How famous you will be once you've been to Oz.
WTF? We aint got no lions and tigers down here!
I've recently seen some docos about tornadoes and how the debris cloud can hurl objects clean through houses and stuff. I saw a nice big piece of timber (looked 2" x 4", maybe 8 feet long) that had punched through a roof, a few internal walls, an internal floor and the ceiling below, and had skewered a full sized fridge. :eek: Bricks and timber do not stop tornado debris.
Supposing a cellar is not practical, would it work to simply line one room with steel armor plate? How thick would it need to be? 1/4 inch? 1/2? an inch? How much would it cost to line a small room? Is there an additional risk of being trapped inside the strong room with a collapsed house on top of it?
For about $2k you can include a small safe room in virtually any new house. Entrapment is possible, but if you have a day or two supply of water, you can wait for rescue. A whistle can speed rescue.
Z, the US FEMA has download-able plans and drawings for several different types of "safe rooms",
ranging from cellar, to cell-lean-to, to outside cement, and to plywood.
The FEMA statements are along the lines of "adequate to protect"
I found these via Google search for: "FEMA saferoom design drawings"
But I have not been able to launch the FEMA P-320 .dwg files,
and haven't been able to figure out how to download the .pdf files.
Z, the US FEMA has download-able plans and drawings for several different types of "safe rooms",
ranging from cellar, to cell-lean-to, to outside cement, and to plywood.
The FEMA statements are along the lines of "adequate to protect"
I found these via Google search for: "FEMA saferoom design drawings"
But I have not been able to launch the FEMA P-320 .dwg files,
and haven't been able to figure out how to download the .pdf files.
.DWG files are probably "Drawing" files, suitable for reading with an architectural drawing program like Autodesk.
Click here to get info on a reader for such files.
Free DWG Viewing with DWG TrueView
View .dwg files with Autodesk® DWG TrueView™ software. DWG TrueView is a free* stand-alone .dwg viewer that includes DWG TrueConvert™ software. DWG TrueView is built on the same viewing engine as AutoCAD® software, so you can view .dwg and DXF files just as you would in AutoCAD. By installing the free* Autodesk® Design Review software, you can then open .dwg files as well as view, print and track changes to Autodesk 2D and 3D design files without the original design software.
At hose prices, a safe room would seem a bit of a no brainer, but human beings are good at wishful thinking and bad at statistics. I've recently seen on TV people in tornado areas saying the didn't think they'd get a tornado because there had never been one just there before, and then see others saying they didn't think they'd get a tornado because they'd had one right there only recently. :right:
If you want something really spooky, do a google image search for "dead man walking tornado".
I heard a story the other day of an elderly couple who got a tornado shelter installed in the floor of their garage under the slab. But they refused to get in the shelter during a tornado warning last week because there was severe hail just as the warning came, and it would mean pulling their brand new Lincoln out of the garage and into the hail so that they could climb down into the shelter. Turns out the tornado never came to their house, and they made the correct decision that day. But placement of the shelter is pretty important. I really like the ones that are built in to the concrete front porch. You just lift up the welcome mat, open the hatch, and climb down inside.
In an ideal world, you would have a large comfortable shelter in the basement where you could sleep when warnings are expected during the night. Instead of going to bed in your upstairs bedroom, you just go to bed in the shelter. That way you don't have to stay awake watching the weather reports as the storms are coming through at 2 am. Virginia is a low risk area, but a couple times a year we'll have storms come through in the middle of the night and there will be associated tornado warnings. I really hate that.
I really hate that.
I know the feeling. In Dallas, we lived in a (tornado-lure) mobile home park.
Night-time warnings were really frightening.
One night, we drove to an multi-story parking facility and spent the night
parked on the next-to-top floor, listening to the radio track a storm
from Ft Worth to Dallas.
This is El Reno, OK just 3 minutes ago.... People are being warned to get into shelter NOW !
Another very large (multi-vortex) tornado is occuring near Mulhall, OK (at the center of this map)
9 PM, the winds are active but not real strong.
Washington Post
Chico Harlan 7:00 AM ET
9/3/13
Japan plans to freeze radioactive soil
The goverment’s $500 million plan aims to stop radioactive water,
a result of the meltdown at the Fukushima Daiichi plant, from pouring into the sea.
The next step will be for General Electric to propose building one of their well-designed
nuclear power plants to provide long term power to the refrigeration units.
This disaster in Japan is a disaster that just keeps disaster-ing.
This is quite a long article, but here is the gist ...
The plant was built in an old river bed.
It rains in Japan ... water runs downhill
The company that built this GE reactor did not consider "what if ..."
The earthquake broke underground drainage pipes
The "ice wall" technology is untested and would cost ~ $1 billion
The company is near bankruptcy
The government basically opposes bankruptcy due to effect on economy
Washington Post
Chico Harlan
10/21/13
For Tepco and Japan’s Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant, toxic water stymies cleanup
TOKYO — Two and a half years after a series of nuclear meltdowns,
Japan’s effort to clean up what remains of the Fukushima Daiichi
power plant is turning into another kind of disaster.
[COLOR="DarkRed"]All of the nation’s 50 operable reactors are currently shuttered.[/COLOR]
The site now stores 90 million gallons of radioactive water,
more than enough to fill Yankee Stadium to the brim.
An additional 400 tons of toxic water is flowing daily into the Pacific Ocean,
and almost every week, the plant operator acknowledges [COLOR="DarkRed"]a new leak[/COLOR].
<snip>
One lawmaker, Sumio Mabuchi, who was also an adviser to then-Prime Minister Naoto Kan,
says Tepco, deep in debt, neglected to take important steps against the groundwater
two years ago because of concerns about its bottom line.
<snip>
The first months of the disaster were chaotic, an improvised battle that involved
firetrucks, helicopters, robots and workers trying to cool melted nuclear fuel.
As the emergency calmed and the groundwater problem emerged, Tepco was left with two options:
It could either block the groundwater from entering the site,
or it could pump the groundwater out and store whatever had leaked into buildings.
Tepco opted for the latter — a mistake, many outside researchers say.
The remaining options to deal with the buildup are unpopular or flawed.
The latest plan includes the ice wall, a new groundwater pumping system
and yet another system to filter radionuclides. But the ice-wall technology is unproven,
and taxpayers will foot the bill because Tepco lacks the funding to deal with major,
unplanned problems at the plant.
TEPCO management that created the meltdowns by refusing to vent is also demonstrating same mismanagement with ground water management. If drainage pipes were damaged, then major construction two years ago should have been replacing those pipes. But TEPCO decisions (even to avert the meltdown) have favored business decisions (ie cost controls) rather than what is needed (product oriented thinking). Instead, they spent years looking for and hoping to patch leaks.
Same mismanagement applies to storage tanks. Many storage tanks are now leaking or on the verge of leaking since some tanks were even constructed with plastic bolts. Long term water storage requires welded tanks. TEPCO inaction means they must now build a new tank the size of an olympic swimming pool every day.
Apparently TEPCO believed government would let them dump that water into the ocean. Then discovered that would not be permitted when numerous international NGOs were even monitoring ocean waters. So now they have created more problems traceable to decisions using business school concepts rather than using engineering concepts.
TEPCO, what does heavy structural construction and maintenance, did not even have one ground water specialist in their 40,000 employees.
So many euphemisms in just one little article...
NY Times
HIROKO TABUCHI
November 10, 2013
Removing Fuel Rods Poses New Risks at Crippled Nuclear Plant in Japan
In the next 10 days, the plant’s operator, the Tokyo Electric Power Company
is set to start the delicate and risky task of using a crane to remove the fuel assemblies from the pool,...
Just 36 men will carry out the tense operation to move the fuel to safer storage;
they will work in groups of six in two-hour shifts throughout the day for months.
A separate team will work overnight to clear any debris inside the pool that
might cause the fuel to jam when a crane tries to lift it out, possibly causing damage.<snip>
The fuel rods must remain immersed in water to block the gamma radiation they emit
and allow workers to be in the area, and to prevent the rods from overheating.
An accident could expose the rods and — in a worst-case scenario, some experts say —
allow them to release radioactive materials beyond the plant.<snip>
“There are potentially very big risks involved,” Shunichi Tanaka,
the head of Japan’s nuclear regulator, said last week.
“Each assembly must be handled very carefully.”<snip>
“If they drop the rods, will the situation be easily contained,
or do we need to worry about a more dangerous chain of events?” Mr. Kawai said.
“There are just too many variables involved to say for sure.”<snip>
Lake H. Barrett, a former United States Department of Energy official
who was in charge of removing fuel from a stricken reactor after an accident
at Three Mile Island in Pennsylvania in 1979, <snip> said he believed that
the risks in removing the fuel from the Reactor No. 4 pool at Fukushima were small
and that a significant release of radioactive material was highly unlikely.
.
I read your excerpt twice and found no euphemisms at all. Care to clarify your point? Or point out my oversight?
euphemism |ˈyoōfəˌmizəm|
noun
a mild or indirect word or expression substituted for one considered to be
too harsh or blunt when referring to something unpleasant or embarrassing
Within my post, above
...start the delicate and risky task
...to release radioactive materials beyond the plant
...very big risks involved
...a more dangerous chain of events
...a significant release of radioactive material
Within the article:
...tense operation
...complicated, potentially hazardous
...a threat that has hung over the plant
...severe enough to force workers to evacuate
ok, I read all that in the post, got it. I still don't see your point though. I imagine you're suggesting those are the euphemisms you spoke of. and since we're both familiar with the definition of euphemism, what plainer, blunter, more precise and direct language should be used?
How about ....
...start the delicate and risky task ([COLOR="DarkRed"]untested and dangerous[/COLOR])
...to release radioactive materials beyond the plant([COLOR="DarkRed"]environmental disaster[/COLOR])
...very big risks involved([COLOR="DarkRed"]extremely dangerous[/COLOR])
...a more dangerous chain of events ([COLOR="DarkRed"]environmental disaster with lethal/genetic damage to people[/COLOR])
etc., etc., etc.
What point are you making ?
Mine was very simple
... most every sentence and paragraph was written in such styles
which tend to down play or minimize the reader's responses.
My point is that the language in the article is factual and neutral, just how I expect a journalist to convey the information. I find your substitutions not neutral, and some are hyperbolic.
...start the delicate and risky task (untested and dangerous)
so, you're saying "dangerous" is more apt than "risky". Ok, a judgement call, I'm fine with your choice I guess. Delicate vs untested? How do you know it's untested? I'm certain, we're all certain the task is delicate, requiring care. I don't think your choice is better, and I'm not even sure it's true. I think the things required to accomplish this task have been tested, element by element even if it hasn't been done end to end.
...to release radioactive materials beyond the plant(environmental disaster)
Your choice of "environmental disaster" is hyperbole and speculation. The sentence as it stands is not euphemistic, it's just factual. An accident could expose the rods and — in a worst-case scenario, some experts say — allow them to release radioactive materials beyond the plant.
So in other accident scenarios that are not the worst case, no release beyond the plant, no "environmental disaster". I'm not saying what will happen, I'm only parsing the text of the article, just as you did when you found so many euphemisms.
...very big risks involved(extremely dangerous)
very big vs extremely and risks vs dangerous... Ok, a wash. I don't find your choice noticeably better, but I don't find the original phrase euphemistic either.
...a more dangerous chain of events (environmental disaster with lethal/genetic damage to people)
“If they drop the rods, will the situation be easily contained, or do we need to worry about a more dangerous chain of events?” Mr. Kawai said. “There are just too many variables involved to say for sure.”
substituting "environmental disaster with lethal / genetic damage to people" for "more dangerous chain of events" is a problem for me for two reasons. firstly, that story's quoting someone involved in the project--changing their words in the story would be dishonest. Now maybe you're quarreling with the words spoken by the person imagining what might happen, but he chose his words, expressing his thoughts. secondly, it seems quite plausible that there might be an accident that wouldn't have the dramatic results your de-euphemism suggests. **could** it be the end of the world as we know it? I guess so. to define a range of what could happen that way is one way of couching it. but it doesn't seem like a neutral way, it seems like the opposite of a gentle, bland euphemism; it seems like hysterical scaremongering.
My point, since you asked, is that I like my journalism fair and balanced. I don't like it too bland (filled with euphemisms) or too spicy (filled with inflammatory language). I found the article neutral, fact based and unemotional.
I found the article neutral, fact based and unemotional
That's part of the reason I try to always give a complete reference to articles I post,
so everyone can read the original writings and decide for themselves.
V, you could have just expressed your feelings in your first posting.
Instead, you played it out, asking for "plainer, blunter, more precise and direct language",
not for language that is "unemotional, balanced, and suitable" for an non-political news article.
What I responded was not (necessarily) the way I would write such a news article.
But part of the reason I have been following the situation in Japan
is a frustration within myself about the future of energy production
For me, it is not un-emotional; instead it is a serious question
with an emotional component, as from the following...
If I assume, and I do, that "global warming" is real and caused primarily by increased C02,
which at this time is caused/aggravated by the activities large, industrial nations, then
where are all the future energy needs going to come from ?
Half of the energy in the US is from coal... that's not a sustainable solution.
Natural gas may be cleaner, but it still yields CO2 ... likewise not a solution
Solar/wind may be feasible but do not seem to me to be efficient enough to meet world needs.
So... right now I tend to agree that nuclear reactors may well become the most likely path followed.
But having lived through 3-Mile Island and Chernobyl in a career of public health,
I believe the general public has been and is being soft-soaped
about the state of the art and the current safety of reactors.
We are seeing this acting out in Fukushima... technically, politically, and financially.
The U.S. and other world authorities are openly expressing doubt about the competence of Tepco.
Yet, of all countries we might expect to do a really great job of engineering for efficiency and safety,
and from the only people who have actually suffered, not one but two, nuclear explosions
on their land, we still see that bad things do happen... really bad things.
Eventually, I'm confident we will learn of men who died working to remedy this disaster.
So when it comes down to it on nuclear power, emotion cannot be left out
just for the sake of being "fair and balanced"
I feel people need the words to enable them to visualize the problems.
So when it comes down to it on nuclear power, emotion cannot be left out just for the sake of being "fair and balanced"
Emotion means a reader added information not intended by the author. Maybe 20 different adjectives the author could have used. All mean same to an unemotional reader. Emotional readers assume hidden inferences. For example, think a difference exists between risky and dangerous. If you 'feel' the two words have a different meaning, then you are assuming a perspective that the author did not specifically define.
Unless an author says 'risky' and 'dangerous' have two different meanings, then a reader can only be logical - assume both words define a similar concept.
The report does not even discuss a greater fear and unknown during rod removals. Rods might be cracked or broken. Dropping a rod is not a major fear. Trying to remove a rod that might be shattered or about to shatter (especially when moving it) makes this more dangerous.
This 'dangerous' move from Reactor 4 building is really quite trivial. Much greater risks still remain unaddressed in the other 'melted down' reactors. Peril in reactor building 4 is less compared to the hazards that remain elsewhere. Danger, risk, peril, and hazard are four words that connote same; that define a same threat. Only a reactionary or sensational reader would disseminate confusion or misconstrue meaning by assuming those four words have different implication. Which says: all four words mean same.
Originally Posted by Lamplighter
So when it comes down to it on nuclear power, emotion cannot be left out just for the sake of being "fair and balanced"
Originally Posted by TW
Emotion means a reader added information not intended by the author.
tw, please do not miscontrue the quotes.
My sentence does not refer to wording in the NY Times article.
I am the author, not the reader, of the sentence adding "emotion" to my discussion of nuclear power.
As such, it is quite valid for me in include emotion in the discussion... if I so choose.
My discussion of nuclear power came
after I responded to a question from BigV,
according to his criteria ("plainer, blunter, more precise and direct language")
My preceding responses to BigV's question were not at all a "re-writing" of any part of that article.
I haven't delved into the background of the original speaker, but in my training in safety assessment of equipment and processes risk and danger (hazard) are two seperate concepts.
Risk is the lilekyhood that an event will occur and the danger is what the result will be if it does occur.
That's not a common perspective, but if the speaker was an engineer then maybe that is how they used the words and a reporter editorialising and substituting would alter the meaning, possibly deliberately.
Quality in engineering does not mean something is good, just that is the same as specified
I haven't delved into the background of the original speaker, but in my training in safety assessment of equipment and processes risk and danger (hazard) are two seperate concepts.
Risk is the lilekyhood that an event will occur and the danger is what the result will be if it does occur. ...
Quality in engineering does not mean something is good, just that is the same as specified.
If perspective or definitions are not provided, then a relationship between risk and danger is read/heard different with each person.
Quality in engineering is not necessarily 'sufficient'. Quality is often defined by what is needed or can be achieved. For example, inductors are measured by a parameter called Q. This Quality factor sometimes must be as high as possible. In other designs, Q has no relevance. The word quality has different meanings based upon perspective.
In production, quality means no quality control inspectors. Quality is defined by employee attitudes. Again, different definitions based in perspective or context.
We worked in facilities with great hazards. Risk and danger often meant same. Both risk and danger were major if something was not confirmed or did not have a safety / backup system.
An example was a welder on the USS Philadelphia who was told to climb under the reactor and cut a pipe. He did not like what he saw so he refused. He was told to go back and cut it anyway. He went back under, again did not like it, and again refused. Had he cut that pipe, he would have flooded the Thames River with radioactivity. To him, no difference between risk and danger.
You may argue that risk is about a future event. And danger is about the present. But to that welder, the difference was irrelevant. Another example of how words have different or same meaning with context or perspective.
