What is FREAKING you out today??

for me - it's the notice of my student loan coming due.

OH.

MY.

GOD.

they want how much??

What's freakin' your storm, rider?

I know that feeling all too well.

Student loan is at the bottom of the totem pole, What are they gonna do? repossess your brain?

Yes, I think they can. :p:

I made sure to keep my student loan burden down to the amount a car payment would be.

My car is paid off, It just needs to stay running, otherwise I will be riding the bus to a new job. Hopefully, If that's worse case scenario, I'll take it.

To bad but the Republickins bent down to the loan system in the mid 2000's and passed a bill that will not allow student loans to be part of a bankruptcy settlement, you still have to pay them off. I guess they persuaded them to many people were defaulting on them by simply declaring bankruptcy.

I don't think they should be discharge- able. The interest rate is good.

You receive what you finance, unlike vehicles, which sometimes turn out to be lemons, a degree is worth it's weight in gold. Even if in this economy, the degree doesn't produce a job right away, you can frame your degree and pat yourself on the back for doing a job well done, while you eat cold beans from a can, and sleeping in your car.

A degree is worth it's weight in gold. (sic)
8.5" x 11" 30# stock (heavy weight paper) = approx .2 oz.

gold spot price as of today = $1385/oz

1385 x .2 = $277.

If you paid more that $277. for your college degree you were robbed.

footfootfoot;699441 wrote:

Student loan is at the bottom of the totem pole, What are they gonna do? repossess your brain?

Oh my (puts fingers in ears and hums.)

Student loan default is a big deal. So much so that a lot of pressure is being put on schools to take more than an active role in keeping default rates down. A school with a high default rate could be in danger of losing access to Title IV funding.

In fact, just this year, my department added a new position (under my supervision...egads) of Default Management technician. We also limited access to unsubsidized loans and make the students come to an extra counseling session to access the full limits of their loans. Most students don't know how much they've borrowed or have any idea what their initial monthly payment would look like. We practically try to scare them into borrowing less. Good for the student, in the long run...but sadly many people are living off this funding.

Want to know how much you've borrowed and access repayment calculators? Log into www.nslds.ed.gov.

For those who have trouble making payments, I urge you to contact your servicer. There are deferments and forebearances for all kinds of issues. Once you go into default, you've paved the way for some actual and real serious consequences.

[/oligatory job-related free advice]

Shawnee123;699522 wrote:

...
For those who have trouble making payments, I urge you to contact your servicer...

Are you a servicer?

No, the servicer is whoever currently holds your loan.

http://www.finaid.org/loans/servicers.phtml

That's too bad.

That strategy sounds not unlike the war on drugs and terrorism, create a demand for a product (degree) put that product out of people's reach (cost) but make having it an imperative (job requirement) offer money to fund purchase (loan) neglect to tell borrower that even with the degree their earning power will not be likely increased to the point where the degree purchase is justified but offer counseling discouraging them from borrowing too much.

The other problem for the school is if the student doesn't borrow they don't fill the seat...

One of the problems with defaulting on a student loan in NYS is that you are ineligible to apply for a state job (which is stupid, you'd think they'd want you employeed where they could garnish your wages as a term of employment, but whatever) and you are also not eligible for some types of state aid, again, kind of stupid, if you can't afford to pay for your loans, then maybe you might be in need of public assistance too, and if you are just defaulting despite ability to pay, then you probably won't be applying or eligible for public assistance.

I remember reading, about the time when they changed the rules about discharging student loan debt with bankruptcy, that the majority of money owed by defaulters was from doctors and lawyers who felt that they didn't really need to repay their loans.

Maybe you have more info on that alleged factoid, Shawnee.

HungLikeJesus;699525 wrote:

Are you a servicer?

Hope springs eternal...

Ft3, that strategy is exactly what (some of ?) the "for profit" colleges have used,
and the Feds are starting to do something about it...
Maybe the Feds are going to make such colleges ineligible for the individual grants and/or guaranteed loans.

Such colleges are fighting back with ads on TV are running now.
Once you see one, the spiel makes more sense.

footfootfoot;699530 wrote:

That strategy sounds not unlike the war on drugs and terrorism, create a demand for a product (degree) put that product out of people's reach (cost) but make having it an imperative (job requirement) offer money to fund purchase (loan) neglect to tell borrower that even with the degree their earning power will not be likely increased to the point where the degree purchase is justified but offer counseling discouraging them from borrowing too much.

There is no doubt education is big business, no matter how noble a bow we tie around it.

What you just said is part of the reason for our new restrictions and the new position: identify WHO is defaulting, and why. It's a fact that students who succeed (reach their educational goal) are more likely to stay out of default. Student retention is a college-wide initiative.

Also, the "not telling" part is exactly why proprietary schools are under such attack. A lot of money for credits that will never transfer, unbeknownst to the student often until it is too late.

Let's face it, I work for a CC: I see way too many people who really have no interest in being there. I also see people who have successfully turned their life around. Providing the access to all results in the attrition...but the benefits for those who make it are immeasurable.

Maybe you have more info on that alleged factoid, Shawnee.

I do not. I do know that doctors can amass a huge debt, and that the consequences of default would probably not really touch them.

Lamplighter;699537 wrote:

Ft3, that strategy is exactly what (some of ?) the "for profit" colleges have used,
and the Feds are starting to do something about it...
Maybe the Feds are going to make such colleges ineligible for the individual grants and/or guaranteed loans.

Such colleges are fighting back with ads on TV are running now.
Once you see one, the spiel makes more sense.

Ha! Yep, we posted nearly the same thing. You are correct, lamp. I cannot, ethically, speak for or against proprietary schools...but this issue is a big deal on the scene.

HungLikeJesus;699529 wrote:

That's too bad.

footfootfoot;699531 wrote:

Hope springs eternal...

You silly boys. ;)

I didn't realize there were any not for porfit colleges left. Even the SUNY system was run by MBAs. The biggest problem I saw/see was/is the use of adjuncts. An adjunct is only hired if the class is filled. The class is only filled if the adjunct is popular or an easy grader. To assure a contract the adjunct becomes sensitive to the demands of the students and not their educational needs.

One of the colleges I taught at still had students requesting a teacher who had been fired years before they (the requesting student) had even matriculated (such was her renown for an easy A)

I have a very dire view of education unless you are phenomenally wealthy. For most of us, you can get a better and more comprehensive education at the library and OTJ.

Well duh, just ask Good Will Hunting.

You are lucky to be smart enough and in a decent position to make the distinction. Unfortunately, that is not the norm in the world around us.

Though I know you were being facetious, there are private colleges (your Harvards and your University of Daytons), proprietary (or for-profit) schools (a lot of the commercials you see) and public institutions (your Ohio States and your community colleges.)

Shawnee123;699541 wrote:

You silly boys. ;)

Shawnee's got all serious.

Interestingly good info s.

footfootfoot;699543 wrote:

I have a very dire view of education unless you are phenomenally wealthy. For most of us, you can get a better and more comprehensive education at the library and OTJ.

My son would agree with the bolded statement. I think he thinks he was born to the wrong family.

Because of the special education system that didn't address his intellectual level, he managed to kick the system to the curb at 18 and passed his high school equivalency in the 97th percentile in the whole state. ( self taught) He could have gone to a state school, expenses paid, but was not ready at the time. Now he is getting his transfer degree but is wonder-struk at how many people my age are at a community college.

For myself, I had one term of Access and Excel which are valuable. I want more of the valuable and not pre-( this or that class) or basic internet explorer. I already know how to surf the web and it was a waste of money.

As far as OJT goes, these days, you need a piece of paper that says you have the right/skills to sit at a computer terminal, and that is worth more than it's weight in gold ;)

HungLikeJesus;699552 wrote:

Shawnee's got all serious.

I think she gets that way when she talks about work.

True about sitting at a computer terminal. Terminal is apt.

haha yep, but after a lifetime working with children and adults with disabilities and raising a child with autism, I will welcome having an inanimate object in front of me.

You've earned your rest.

More people need the luxury of poo-pooing jobs they find distasteful. You know, like TSA agents.

Most of us are just doing what we have to do to make it in the world, instead of sitting around maligning education and mind-numbing jobs.

I'd love to save the world, I just can't afford to...so I save a little person every once in a while. It's fulfilling. I could wax poetic about justice and truth and the deeper meaning of my existence...but that's a bit of hand-wringing and very little action...which amounts to nothing.

No education is wasted. I wouldn't trade my education for anything: even the classes many might find useless, like art history and literature and archery, etc. It's all still up here in my tiny little brain, and I read and learn more every single day. I consider myself an exceptionally well-rounded human being, terminal job and all.

In this economy, I will take just about anything.
I wonder if the younger kids with Administrative degrees will cut me out for a job.
I think I'll probably end up being a house cleaner at an old folks home just to have full time work. I worry, I'll get old and grey and won't care there are stains on my smock and cookie crumbs in my pockets.

I cannot lift people off beds anymore, and I don't want to change diapers or wipe poop. I don't want my hair pulled or body smacked, or even the runny nosed hugs. I need something to take me into old age, so being an office personal seems like the way to go. Not so much a rest, but a way to retire gracefully and in one piece.

I don't have the money or the time to choose something amazing or worthy of awe.

What my oldest child's school (for the first 2 years) did was not let her take the loan out, WE had to take out the loan. And we are still paying.... and paying... and paying....

That's what I get for trying to make her happy.

I don't know about poo pooing jobs. There are jobs I would find it difficult to do, but not because they are beneath me. I've already done plenty of jobs that are beneath me. And the problem with TSA is the idea of the necessity of that job, and the fact that the drivers of the economic engine have created an economy where people are put in a position where they have to take such jobs, jobs that defy reason.

What would be wrong with a world where people could "follow their bliss"? In your list of possibly useless classes, Art History, Literature, Archery, I would say perhaps those are some of the only useful classes to take. Not that they would be of interest to some company whose values and morals were shaped by MBAs, but useful to leading a more fulfilling and satisfying or significant life.

Running any business the way an MBA would is like thinking delicious, wholesome cooking is merely serving protein and carbohydrates. It's the idea that if a match is good at lighting a fire, then a flamethrower has to be better.

There's no subtlety.

As far as the value of an education, I suppose it depends on what you are learning. I spent one semester at Syracuse University ($18,000) and while I have to say I had some very good foundation art classes there, I don't think it was worth $18,000. One of the soon to be graduates in the photo program ($36,000 x4) said to me she was looking forward to experimenting with filters to see how they would affect her photos. Another senior was unsure of what a guide number was for his flash. These are both things they should have mastered by the end of their first year, not things that they'd never tried before.

I had already had several years of professional experience as a photographer (self taught) before I ever went to school. School was not able to teach me anything about photography, I switched majors and schools after SU nad went to a state school and finished my degree for less that half of the cost of that first semester.

I learned a few things, but nothing that I couldn't have learned in a book, met a lot of people, but no one I couldn't have met out and about in life. The one thing that school had was access to facilities, but then as a begining photo assistant one of the perks of that job was usually access to the studio during off hours and a film allowance (back in the day) One week in any busy studio had more instruction than an entire semester at a college.

The first studio I worked at I started by sweeping floors, in a little while it was evident that I could be put to better use and was. I realize not every job allows for that type of trajectory, and for the ones that don't I guess school is a requirement.

And in the case of 4 years at SU, $144,000 would pay for a hell of a photo studio and an ass load of film.

Foot.That is the longest post I have ever read of yours.

I wish people could follow their bliss!

My son is great at statistics. It is a matter of finding where in the world that fits and in this economy which MBA will accommodate.


Without an BA/ MBA it's just a great hobby.

( sorry for the hijack. I know you were responding to shaw)

TheMercenary;699567 wrote:

What my oldest child's school (for the first 2 years) did was not let her take the loan out, WE had to take out the loan. And we are still paying.... and paying... and paying....

That's what I get for trying to make her happy.

I wish someone would find their sweet spot. If I could see or hear of an example, I might think the educational degree is the road to happiness.

This reminds me. I did watch a movie yesterday on lifetime. It was called, Homeless to Harvard. True story of a girl named Liz Murray.

She found the sweet spot, but most of us don't have amazing life stories that win us a scholarship to Harvard.

skysidhe;699575 wrote:

Foot.That is the longest post I have ever read of yours.

And quite a good post it was. :)

I realize that I am not completely fulfilled. I would love to be a writer, but I'm not. I would love to paint, but I can't. I would love to have the eye of a photographer, but I don't.

I have no bliss to follow, no talent to hone. Perhaps that is my big obstacle in life, what keeps me from being truly happy. I see the beauty in the arts, I am able to appreciate it all...but I have no contributions to make.

I'm a jill of all trades, a mistress of none.

Or it could be my mid-life talking. :blush:

Well, I think you probably do have some sort of bliss to follow, it sounds to me more like you won't allow yourself to (for whatever reason). Maybe the place to start is just taking a class without expectation and seeing where that leads.

Another really really helpful thing, if you are truly serious about wanting to do something artistic with your life is to get a copy of the book "The Artist's Way" by Julia Cameron and do all the exercises in it. Won't do shit for your abs, but after you're done, you'll know where your bliss lies or doesn't.

One of my teachers had us do the exercises in the book one semester and I will say that was one of the most valuable classes I had in my 7 years of college.

Thanks. I'll look for that book. :)

Cool, just found it available at the library!

Too bad my stupid town wouldn't pass the library levy and it's now closed on Sunday. :(

well this has been a great thread so far!!

Shawnee and foot - you both amaze me. I enjoyed reading your posts and learning more about both of you along with the others who have contributed to the thread.

Shawnee - I feel very much as you do, i.e., I love the arts but have no talent. This made me very sad and morose for a while until I realized that the world needs people like us to appreciate the art! My role is to discern and learn and love it - not produce it. I have learned to live with that. I am also very good at encouraging others and I make a wonderful Gal Friday. College taught me that I don't want to write the paper, but I do want to HELP write the paper. I'm good at research (literary research, etc) I am not the genius but I am the genius helper. That's ok.

I went and got a degree in English (concentration in literature - how useless is that!) for the sheer love of lit. and reading, poetry and prose. I took nearly exclusively classes like art history, literature, religion, etc. That was my bliss. I'm glad I went. It was an invaluable experience - one I wouldn't have been able to appreciate at the age of 19, etc. (I would've been too busy goofing around and drinking beers)

One of the most important things that I did learn was that too much education can actually ruin your bliss - by the end of my time I didn't care if I never wrote another effing paper again. See? It was time to go.

I took an entire class based on "The Artists Way" and Loved it. Please do it - do the exercises and read the book. It's wonderful and it opens up all kinds of nooks and cranies in your soul. Do it! :)

Shawnee123;699563 wrote:

No education is wasted. I wouldn't trade my education for anything: even the classes many might find useless, like art history and literature and archery, etc. It's all still up here in my tiny little brain, and I read and learn more every single day. I consider myself an exceptionally well-rounded human being, terminal job and all.

I agree.

Though in my own little part of the world, the ground is shifting under our feet in the academic sector.

In the latest cuts round, the government has announced it is slashing university teaching grants by 80%. The government will no longer pay universities the per-student subsidy for Arts and Humanties students.

Consequently, only the top research universities will be able to offer good arts and humanties courses, and they will be freed up to charge three times the current fees to make up the shortfall. Only the wealthy or those willing to take on very large student debt (again primarily those drawn from reasonably affluent families: working-class children are generally less willing to take on that debt) will go down the arts or humanties route.

Working-class children and those from large families, will be 'persuaded' by the system towards more technical, scientific and vocational courses.

Learning for learning's sake was still a prime directive of the university system until the last few years. More and more emphasis has been placed on university education as a means to emplyment: this has increased the need for degree courses to show direct links with employability and seriously downgraded the position of humanities focussed or arts focussed courses within universities.


Watch this space. Over the next ten years the university sector in the Uk will separate into distinct bands of education: with the top tiers commanding fees of £10-20k per annum and the lower tier £3 -6k. At the same time there will be a separating off of study types between these universities: with the high-fee universities offering broad choices and a rounded education, and the low-fee universities offering cut-down two year degree courses without any of the frills and extras, and with a narrow choice of courses focussed on employability rather than learning.

Alongside this, the reduction in state subsidiies will level the playing field for private universities and colleges to offer their own proprietary courses. State involvement in university education will shrink and the private sector will expand.

Already I see the difference in my own university. And as a high ranking Russell Group research institution, we are protected from many of the ill effects of these changes. The choice of undergrad courses is shrinking, the level of funding in our department has been slashed, the opportunities for post grad study have shrunk.

When I was 18 years old, I could have attended Cambridge or Oxford and the level of student debt accrued would have been identical to what I'd have accrued attending any other university. Even a few years ago when I was going back into education, had I been able to prove my quality, through having the right qualifications, I could have gone to either of the Oxbridge universities and the cost to me would have been the same as the cost of going to Leeds Uni. As long as I had the grades, and passed the interview, finances wold not have been a factor in my choice.

My eldest niece is approaching 17 and making similar decisions. She is thinking she may not go to uni because of the level of debt. By the time she is old enough to apply, in a year's time, Cambridge or Oxford will represent 3x the debt of other universities.

We have over the last few decades done a good deal in Britain to dissolve some of the class distinctions that were so apparent in our people. Now we are going out of our way to reinstate them.

Very interesting and yet harsh realities.

well this has been a great thread so far!!

I agree. It was a nice exchange of ideas, ideologies...

I was happy to see Dana's take too. I'd hoped she would give some insight from the other side of the pond.

A few kindred spirits hanging about. :)

I have no words of wisdom to impart but these 5 ft snow drifts here are freaking me out:eek:

footfootfoot;699581 wrote:

Well, I think you probably do have some sort of bliss to follow, it sounds to me more like you won't allow yourself to (for whatever reason). Maybe the place to start is just taking a class without expectation and seeing where that leads.

Another really really helpful thing, if you are truly serious about wanting to do something artistic with your life is to get a copy of the book "The Artist's Way" by Julia Cameron and do all the exercises in it. Won't do shit for your abs, but after you're done, you'll know where your bliss lies or doesn't.

One of my teachers had us do the exercises in the book one semester and I will say that was one of the most valuable classes I had in my 7 years of college.

I second this.

Actually, when I read your first paragraph, foot3, that book immediately came to mind.

Brianna;699659 wrote:

I love the arts but have no talent. This made me very sad and morose for a while until I realized that the world needs people like us to appreciate the art! My role is to discern and learn and love it - not produce it. I have learned to live with that.

Model for, and encourage, art students.

My sweetie is sick and there is nothing I can do for her.:sniff:

Sure there is, flowers, candy, Kleenex. Bitches love Kleenex. :haha:

Gravdigr;700454 wrote:

My sweetie is sick and there is nothing I can do for her.:sniff:

I did something for her. I was in bed for two days. I will have to get better to be healthy enough to die.:sniff: