What is Love?

I'm reading 'A Road Less Traveled' By M Scott Peck

He has a very different definition of love than I've ever come across. It's a very pragmatic definition, and I think it makes sense.

from the wiki page:

Love

His perspective on love (in The Road Less Traveled) is that love is not a feeling, it is an activity and an investment. He defines love as, "The will to extend one's self for the purpose of nurturing one's own or another's spiritual growth" (Peck, 1978/1992[2], p85). Love is primarily actions towards nurturing the spiritual growth of another.
Peck seeks to differentiate between love and cathexis. Cathexis is what explains attractions to the opposite sex, the instinct for cuddling pets and pinching babies' cheeks. However, cathexis is not love. All the same, true love cannot begin in isolation, a certain amount of cathexis is necessary to get sufficiently close to be able to truly love.
Once through the cathexis stage, the work of love begins. It is not a feeling. It consists of what you do for another person. As Peck says in The Road Less Traveled, "Love is as love does." It is about giving the other person what they need to grow. It is about truly knowing and understanding them.

(bold mine)

This is a quote by jinx during a recent chat conversation where we were discussing my occasionally loose grip on reality:

[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Arial]we're not just a married couple to you - we're soul-mates, destined to be together forever.[/FONT][/COLOR]

that statement rang a bell in my head. a loud one.

I think I DO get caught up in the fantasy of 'true love' and 'destiny', when in actuality, real love is what you DO, not what you think, hope, wish, or attest. SAYING you love someone ....and meaning it is all well and good, and can make the other person feel good about themselves for as long as they believe it....but that belief has to end at some point if your actions are not in agreement with these attestations.... The lovey dovey affection part of love (cathexis)will only last for so long. Real love abides in the DOING. The actions you take to share yourself with your partner, the work you do in paying attention to their spiritual growth, and the loving acts you perform for them and for others.... THAT is love. That is HOW to love someone.


Is it serendipity that I read the above quoted passage mere hours after that statement by jinx?


This is a really really good book. I'm only halfway through it, but I already want to own a copy. It reads a little bit like a text book in places, so I have to slow down and re read some paragraphs, and be careful not to zone if I am getting sleepy... but this kind of perspective can change how you see the things you do, and thus WHAT you do going forward. ...and I'm all about change right now.

In English the word 'love' is overloaded. Depending on context it can mean many different things. The greeks had three different words, and the concepts you describe above fit (sort of) with the Greek words eros, agape, and philia.

I think this overuse of the word 'love' is one of the (admittedly many) reasons that we have so much trouble with long-term relationships in our society.

It's great to have that feeling of love at the beginning of a relationship, but if you don't have that dedication to put another's welfare equal-to or above your own, then the relationship will not stand.

The trick it to find the person for whom you feel the romantic attraction and with whom you also are compatible enough that you are willing to do the work of love.

Well said Pete.

Pete Zicato;676336 wrote:

The trick it to find the person for whom you feel the romantic attraction and with whom you also are compatible enough that you are willing to do the work of love.

...and feels the same for you. Its gotta be a two way street.

I strongly feel that once the horny, dewey-eyed, butterflies-in-the-stomach stage wears off, and it does, love is a choice. The choice to stay with a person, to consider how they feel about what you do, to work on the partnership. It doesn't sound very romantic, but surely choosing loving actions is far more romantic than simply being swept along by the vertigo of falling-in-love-ness?

Love is a decision. A decision that regardless of the worldly outlook of all evil, that you will act upon your most enlightened instinct to do the right thing.

Baby Don't Hurt Me.

JBKlyde;676350 wrote:

Love is a decision. A decision that regardless of the worldly outlook of all evil, that you will act upon your most enlightened instinct to do the right thing.

and if she doesn't like you doing the right thing it is your solemn duty to make her see it that way until death or restraining order do you part

[/wrongthread]

(where's the OSHA compliant psychostalker soulwash? I've been contaminated!)

the monsters loose, honestly dude I don't think you have a clue what true love is....

JBKlyde is craaaaaaaaaaazy

monster ain't a [COLOR="White"]smart[/COLOR] man, but monster knows what love is, jenneh.

snort!

lumberjim;676324 wrote:

This is a quote by jinx during a recent chat conversation where we were discussing my occasionally loose grip on reality:

we're not just a married couple to you - we're soul-mates, destined to be together forever.

not really addressing the thread, I was thinking about this, and it seems like something we learn in life is the person who loves more has less power in the relationship

and it is up to the person with more power to never take advantage of that.

Love is what a woman makes when a man fucks her.

Yes, I know. I am an fucking phallocrat.

;)

Undertoad;676544 wrote:

not really addressing the thread, I was thinking about this, and it seems like something we learn in life is the person who loves more has less power in the relationship

and it is up to the person with more power to never take advantage of that.

Discussed here:

The one who loves less is in control of the relationship

Crystallized here:

"like riding in the trunk"

fuckin fact.

Undertoad;676544 wrote:

not really addressing the thread, I was thinking about this, and it seems like something we learn in life is the person who loves more has less power in the relationship

and it is up to the person with more power to never take advantage of that.

Or that the person that is loved more is more loveable for some reason. And thus holds more 'power'.
And all the shades of grey between.

Being conscious of your power and respecting it is a sort of 'Grace' I agree.

love is never having to say you're sorry for putting it in the bad place without a warning.

I read the Peck book years ago. It was a little to new age for me back then, but he had a few good points. I agree more with what the Cellarites have to say about love than I agree with Peck. Of course, I've been divorced for many years, but that's because my cupcake got transformed into a murderous dragon.

LJ;676578 wrote:

Or that the person that is loved more is more loveable for some reason. And thus holds more 'power'.
And all the shades of grey between.

Being conscious of your power and respecting it is a sort of 'Grace' I agree.

That would mean one of the two is "less" loveable, or perceives themself to be less loveable, which speaks volumes about that person...or where they need to be to not feel "less."

I don't know if that even makes sense. Been thinking a lot about this thread...it's a worthy discussion.

Undertoad;676544 wrote:

not really addressing the thread, I was thinking about this, and it seems like something we learn in life is the person who loves more has less power in the relationship

and it is up to the person with more power to never take advantage of that.

thinking more about this post...


[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Arial]I don't really see the connection between your statement and the quote. I included that quote because it reinforces the message that love is an act, not an intent. Nothing to do with who has more 'power' or who is taking advantage of it...

She was addressing the way I have tried to substitute my intentions for my actions. I say I [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#000000][FONT=Arial]want[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#000000][FONT=Arial] us to be together forever, but I [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#000000][FONT=Arial]did[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#000000][FONT=Arial] unconscious things that belied that desire. I [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#000000][FONT=Arial]want[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#000000][FONT=Arial] to be thin, but I [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#000000][FONT=Arial]did [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#000000][FONT=Arial]still eat at Burger King. [/FONT][/COLOR]She sees very clearly (because I've done so repeatedly) that I am capable of making very grandiose and poignant statements of love and commitment. She has also seen me behave in a way that contradict those statements enough times to realize that I tend to forget those promises eventually.

If I would Kill a Dragon for her, why the hell wouldn't I do something as mundane as sticking to a diet?

At this point, i think it was because I unconsciously wanted to feed my addictions more than I consciously wanted to be loving, attentive, desirable and lovable. That may or may not be at the root of what needs to be changed inside me.... but it definitely needs to be changed. My intent and my actions have been at odds. This had the added impact of causing my wife to wonder WHY. WHY would I NOT want to be loving more than i want to (eat/drink/sneak)? All i can say is that it is my damage, not hers, and I am very ashamed that my actions caused her that kind of pain and self doubt.

My inner view and self discipline had become nearly nonexistent. I have always struggled with discipline. Hopefully this experience and shock will help me to make a lasting change to the way I prioritize my life and how clearly I see myself. To be capable of demonstrating my love, I must be aware of the things I do, and consistent in what I say about the way I feel. I need to be accountable in my actions for the words I use.

Sorry to be such a one trick pony lately, but this is pretty much all that's on my mind. I think it helps me to organize my thoughts when I write things like this out.

I, for one, very much like this new introspective, thoughtful Lumberjim.

So much that I even held back making wisecracks about Love is saying no to a big mac, and stuff. Also, it wasn't very funny.

J helps me to notice that my previous relationship was all about power and it doesn't apply to everyone's relationship so deeply. Also I don't know your situation well enough to comment, so it was not necessarily addressing you.

You have more discipline than me. When I was faced with a two hour commute it drove me completely fuckin' insane and I quit after six months for a job that paid 40% less. To me, the modern-day equivalent to dragon killing is commuting... maybe it's even worse. You slay the dragon, good, it's over and done with -- but with commuting, you've just got to wake up the next day and do it again. Fuuuuuuhh.....

You say your intent and your actions have been at odds. J points out "that's everybody's struggle".

Sorry to butt in but ive just found this site while i was googling what a tim tam was, i thought it was something exciting :(
Anyways interesting topic, so what its kind of led up to is that every relationship has a modern day "slaying the dragon" when it comes to true love, and does that mean that it isnt true love if we found out we had to slay a dragon every day for the rest of our lives? or do we just agree to the terms of slaying this dragon as unconsiously we know we would never have to do it? its all confusing to me as i believe there are no such things as wrong answers as it something makes sense to someone isnt it real? there are many truths as they say.

What's a tim tam?

I don't know enough about your relationship to have any real insight so I'll just throw some thoughts out for discussion/reflection.

lumberjim;676650 wrote:

]I included that quote because it reinforces the message that love is an act, not an intent.

As UT eluded to, it is a repeated act. Not just a one time deal. The act itself may also change over time.

I say I want us to be together forever, but I did unconscious things that belied that desire.

Perhaps the question here is why? Do/did you not feel that you are worthy or do you think perhaps that you did these things for some other reason?

She sees very clearly (because I've done so repeatedly) that I am capable of making very grandiose and poignant statements of love and commitment. She has also seen me behave in a way that contradict those statements enough times to realize that I tend to forget those promises eventually.

Sounds like you are in tune with the overall plan and the desired END result, but those tiny everyday individual tasks to achieve said plan may be getting overlooked.

My intent and my actions have been at odds. This had the added impact of causing my wife to wonder WHY. WHY would I NOT want to be loving more than i want to (eat/drink/sneak)? All I can say is that it is my damage, not hers, and I am very ashamed that my actions caused her that kind of pain and self doubt.

BOLD MINE - Perhaps admitting and accepting that which you are responsible for coupled with the realization of the ramifications of your actions may lead to the desire and ability to counter past negative behaviors and lead to more positive ones.

I must be aware of the things I do, and consistent in what I say about the way I feel. I need to be accountable in my actions for the words I use.

Undertoad;676680 wrote:

What's a tim tam?

Who is Tim?

Undertoad;676657 wrote:

"that's everybody's struggle".

Everybody has struggles with lots of different things. When those struggles are associated with considerable personal or social disruptions they can be classified as disorders - they cause dis-order in a person's life.
How to fix these disorders is the key/question.

Undertoad;676680 wrote:

What's a tim tam?

some kind of Aussie cookie, I believe.

As for love - I know nothing.

cookies - I know.

Yes, it's a cookie. Ducks sent us some real aussie ones, way better than the Pepridge Farm rip-offs.

^^^ That makes sense. It's like, shyness is a struggle many people have (40%), but social anxiety disorder is a disorder.

There's also the added aspect of knowing that is one's struggle in the first place, versus believing (consciously or subconsciously) that one's intentions are sufficient.

lol yes a tim tams a biscuit, over here in the uk we have penguin biscuits looks like them but thicker.

jinx;676706 wrote:

Yes, it's a cookie. Ducks sent us some real aussie ones, way better than the Pepridge Farm rip-offs.

I am jealous!

love is a Tim Tam

squirell nutkin;676771 wrote:

love is a Tim Tam

with jam, on a tram

Would you eat it on a boat?

said Sam I am.

Now that I've finished incredulously affirming that a Tim Tam is not a cookie, but a biscuit, I'd like to know can cookies be rectangular?

For a pic and the answer to important questions such as "is jaffa cake a cake or a biscuit?" see A Cup of Tea and a Biscuit website:

http://www.nicecupofteaandasitdown.com/biscuits/previous.php3?item=47

Dat's cuz you silly Poms and Aussies dunt no a cookie when ya sees one. :p:

But I will not eat green eggs and ham

haha! i read somewere that a jaffa cake is misleading. the difference between a cake and a biscuit is a biscuit should crumble, also you can dip it in tea. there was some reason that they benefitted in calling it a cake and got away with it but ive lost myself somehow...:eyebrow: ah yes thats it! biscuits uneaten go soft, cakes uneaten go hard, what happens to an old jaffa cake then, ive never left one long enough to see!

A biscuit should have sausage gravy on it. Period.

At least butter or jam.

ChattyHunter, I have responded to your Jaffa Cake reference over in Jim's Biscuit thread :P

http://cellar.org/showpost.php?p=676897&postcount=4

[YOUTUBE]81fhtebkw-k&start=25s[/YOUTUBE]

Could a biscuit have chikin in it?

.......or beef?

kerosene;677185 wrote:

Could a biscuit have chikin in it?

It could if it were
.
.

Has anyone ever eaten those things? Do they really taste like chicken?

I use to love those things. Now I just think they taste overly salty. I think they must put chicken bouillon on them.

Oh man that brings back some great memories, Pete.
I used to live on them as a child.

Did you realise it is the 50th anniversay of Green Eggs and Ham?

In honour of this great event:

[YOUTUBE]DPy2alWEZ-U[/YOUTUBE]

There is a full length version but the quality is not good.

lumberjim;676324 wrote:

I'm reading 'A Road Less Traveled' By M Scott Peck

Finished this book tonight. This is on page 309:

We must prepare ourselves to be loved. We do this by becoming ourselves loving, disciplined human beings. If we seek to be loved--if we expect to be loved--this cannot be accomplished; we will be dependent and grasping, not genuinely loving. But when we nurture ourselves and others without a primary concern of finding reward, then we will have become lovable, and the reward of being loved, which we have not sought, will find us. So it is with human love and with God's love.

it kind of sums up the love portion of the book.

I have to give this back to the library, but I think I will ask Santa for a copy.

ZenGum;677476 wrote:

Did you realise it is the 50th anniversay of Green Eggs and Ham?

Damn! I missed my own festive event! :p:

Thanks for sharing. It's great