Israeli naval commandos stormed a flotilla of ships
JERUSALEM — Israeli naval commandos stormed a flotilla of ships carrying aid and hundreds of pro-Palestinian activists to the blockaded Gaza Strip on Monday, killing nine passengers in a botched raid that provoked international outrage and a diplomatic crisis. Dozens of activists and six Israeli soldiers were wounded in the bloody predawn confrontation in international waters. The violent takeover dealt yet another blow to Israel's international image, already tarnished by war crimes accusations in Gaza and its 3-year-old blockade of the impoverished Palestinian territory.
Copyright © 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.
I think the shit has just hit the fan.
Right now, estimations run from 10 to 20 killed and many wounded.
You might hear references to the
Altalena Affair in this discussion. This was an altercation between Jewish insurgents and the Jewish army before Israel independence.
Also there is the
Karine_A_Affair which was 2002 and involved 30 tons of weapons bound for Palestine.
I'm curious if weapons will be found on board the ships.
Still, it was a stupid move. The loss of support will probably outweigh the short term tactical advantage even if weapons are found. Taking the ship in international waters could be construed to be an act of piracy. If Israel wanted to create a blockade, they should have declared one and intercepted the ship along their coast.
Botched to say the least: sending soldiers with paintball guns into an angry mob, as an opening move.
[YOUTUBE]gYjkLUcbJWo[/YOUTUBE]
As I said in another thread, politicians react, they don't act.
I'm beginnig to think that to get elected, you have to be as empty headed as a blonde.
And comparing a politician to a blonde might be construed as an insult for blondes.
I wonder if they were in international waters or waters where they claim they are territorial, most countries have a difference and even those boundries are disputed by adversaries.
Everything I've seen says international. Bad move on a number of levels - IMO.
If they have found supposed ships in the past that were suppose to carrying "humanitarian aid" and was found to be full of weapons I think I would stop every ship too.
Thats your choice, but don't do it in international waters.
OH and I just read something about this group that has been found to be less than a charitable organization repeatedly in the past.
According to the BBC: "The UN Charter on the Law of the Sea says only if a vessel is suspected to be transporting weapons, or weapons of mass destruction, can it be boarded in international waters. Otherwise the permission of the ship's flag carrying nation must be sought."
Israel complains its soldiers were attacked, but what kind of welcome were they expecting exactly? Lei's and a BBQ?
I'm curious if weapons will be found on board the ships.
Reminded me of
this Time article about the
Arctic Sea hijacking.
No weapons - kids toys, and medical equipment so far.
They went looking for a confrontation. They got one.
Biased, but worth looking into:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3897667,00.html
VIDEO - The ongoing interrogation of passengers who were aboard the Marmara – the Gaza aid flotilla's flagship – revealed that the majority of those who attacked the Israeli Naval Commandos boarding the ship have direct and indirect Global Jihad ties.
Israel's investigation has revealed some 100 people infiltrated the peace and humanitarian aid activists making their way to Gaza, with the explicit design to attack Israeli soldiers using cold arms.
Some among that group are believed to have ties with World Jihad groups, mainly al-Qaeda.
The majority of suspects are Turks, but some are Yemenites and Indonesian. One Yemenite Islamist was photographed with a dagger in his belt prior to the raid.
The suspects are not cooperating with investigators. Most of them have no identification papers, and Israeli authorities are still trying to ascertain their identity.
Nevertheless, it is clear that the majority were recruited by the same IHH handler who organized the flotilla.
I also saw in the jpost that there were some "other things" found while searching. Again, I haven't seen it anywhere else so I'm not posting it. I'm waiting to see what happens.
I would like salsa with my tortillas.
I also saw in the jpost that there were some "other things" found while searching. Again, I haven't seen it anywhere else so I'm not posting it. I'm waiting to see what happens.
BTW, NPR just did a great exam of the legality of the issue. It should be available Thurs on line.
Anyone placing blame for the need for the flotilla in the first place. Wouldn't be because Egypt shut down the tunnels that were smuggling weapons into Gaza, could it? These people have been acting stupid for years, and when they finally get cut off because they would rather have weapons than food, the world is supposed to be outraged. I'll trust the Israelis any time.
Hoplophobe?
There are no clear good guys in this.
Hoplophobe?
There are no clear good guys in this.
Of course there are. Who just depends on which sides your looking from.
I agree. There is much to be considered here.
Do we believe Israel or support Iran?
Do we support the cause of a Two State Solution or not?
My own opinion on the subject is that :
1) That flotilla was clearly a provocation.
2) The Israeli's reaction was clearly over the board.
One possibility would have been to get the boats in a controlled zone, unload them, check every thing under control from UNO soldiers (there are some in israel) and check each person wanting to get on shore again under some external control.
Another would be to Nuke the whole zone and render the place unusable from Turkey to Afghnistan down to Sudan including Saudi Arabia and Israel.
End of the contention over the place and who has the right to be there. End of the problem.
Not sure... A bit extreme... Perhaps...
Sometimes, I wonder if a species as bellicose as the human race shouldn't be totally wiped out...
It'll happen. And the Earth will abide.
An Assault, Cloaked in Peace, points out Michael Oren, Israeli ambassador the the US:
Millions have already seen the Al Jazeera broadcast showing these “activists” chanting “Khaibar! Khaibar!”— a reference to a Muslim massacre of Jews in the Arabian peninsula in the seventh century. YouTube viewers saw Israeli troops, armed with crowd-dispersing paintball guns and side arms for emergency protection, being beaten and hurled over the railings of the ship by attackers wielding iron bars.
What the videos don't show, however, are several curious aspects Israeli authorities are now investigating. First, about 100 of those detained from the boats were carrying immense sums in their pockets — nearly a million euros in total. Second, Israel discovered spent bullet cartridges on the Mavi Marmara that are of a caliber not used by the Israeli commandos, some of whom suffered gunshot wounds. Also found on the boat were propaganda clips showing passengers "injured" by Israeli forces; these videos, however, were filmed during daylight, hours before the nighttime operation occurred.
Nevertheless, and previous to any further investigation,
Turkey will "never forgive" Israel, says Turkish President Abdullah Gul
The Turkish president has said that Israel's military raid on civilian aid ships bound for the Gaza Strip has caused "irreparable" damage to his country's relations with Israel, and will "never" be forgiven.
Israel should say "Fuck Abdullah Gul."
It'll happen. And the Earth will abide.
Only the Dude Abides...
Gaza blockade: Iran offers escort to next aid convoy
Iran has warned that it could send Revolutionary Guard naval units to escort humanitarian aid convoys seeking to break the Israeli blockade of Gaza – a move that would certainly be challenged by Israel.
Any such Iranian involvement, raised today by an aide to the supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, would constitute a serious escalation of already high tensions with Israel, which accuses Tehran of seeking to build a nuclear weapon and of backing Hamas, the Islamist movement that controls Gaza.
"Iran's Revolutionary Guard naval forces are prepared to escort the peace and freedom convoys that carry humanitarian assistance for the defenceless and oppressed people of Gaza with all their strength," pledged Hojjatoleslam Ali Shirazi, Khamenei's personal representative to the guards corps.
The threat came as the Israeli prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, dismissed a UN proposal for an international commission to investigate last week's commando assault on aid ships, in which nine people died. Another aid ship, the Rachel Corrie, carrying Irish and other peace activists, was boarded peacefully by Israeli forces on Saturday, escorted to the port of Ashdod, and its passengers deported.
Netanyahu has defended Israel's right to maintain the blockade by arguing that without it Gaza would become an "Iranian port" and Hamas missiles would strike Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. Israel's undeclared aim is to weaken or bring down the Hamas government.
Iran continued to exploit the "freedom flotilla" affair to lambast Israel. Its foreign minister, Manuchehr Mottaki, told the Organisation of the Islamic Conference in Jeddah on Sunday that Israel's crime was "another instance of the Zionist regime's brazen and merciless treatment of Muslims, especially the oppressed Palestinian people."
Mottaki also called for a UN resolution condemning Israel. The security council is discussing imposing new sanctions on Iran because of its failure to meet international demands over its nuclear programme.
Iran and Israel have had no diplomatic relations since the 1979 revolution and President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad regularly predicts the disappearance of the Jewish state as well as denying the Holocaust.
more
I wonder if this is the diversion that Clinton was talking about over the weekend.
They should blow any Iranian ship out of the water.
Oh consarn it -- missed this thread looking for a place to post this:
A Favorite ColumnistThey should blow any Iranian...
Just because you blow any Iranian doesn't mean the Israelis should.
Revenge
At times ... I wish
I could meet in a duel
the man who killed my father
and razed our home,
expelling me
into
a narrow country.
And if he killed me,
I’d rest at last,
and if I were ready—
I would take my revenge!
*
But if it came to light,
when my rival appeared,
that he had a mother
waiting for him,
or a father who’d put
his right hand over
the heart’s place in his chest
whenever his son was late
even by just a quarter-hour
for a meeting they’d set—
then I would not kill him,
even if I could.
*
Likewise ... I
would not murder him
if it were soon made clear
that he had a brother or sisters
who loved him and constantly longed to see him.
Or if he had a wife to greet him
and children who
couldn’t bear his absence
and whom his gifts would thrill.
Or if he had
friends or companions,
neighbors he knew
or allies from prison
or a hospital room,
or classmates from his school...
asking about him
and sending him regards.
*
But if he turned
out to be on his own—
cut off like a branch from a tree—
without a mother or father,
with neither a brother nor sister,
wifeless, without a child,
and without kin or neighbors or friends,
colleagues or companions,
then I’d add not a thing to his pain
within that aloneness—
not the torment of death,
and not the sorrow of passing away.
Instead I’d be content
to ignore him when I passed him by
on the street—as I
convinced myself
that paying him no attention
in itself was a kind of revenge.
Nazareth
April 15, 2006
Taha Muhammad Ali
Outstanding Griff. Thank you very much.
What Hamas did during the flotilla outrage
As Israeli naval commandos raided the flotilla ship convoy that was on its way to the Gaza Strip, Hamas security officers stormed the offices of five non-governmental organizations, confiscated equipment and documents, and ordered them closed indefinitely.
Ever since it seized control over the Gaza Strip in the summer of 2007, Hamas has imposed a reign of terror on the local population in general and its critics in particular. Hamas has brought nothing to the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip other than death and disaster.
The raid on the NGOs in the Gaza Strip, which received little coverage in the media, is seen by many Palestinians as part of Hamas's ongoing crackdown on political opponents and human rights organizations.
Further, Hamas's recent decision to ban municipal elections in the Gaza Strip is yet another violation of one of the basic rights of its constituents.
Get elected, ban elections.
Stop that now UT!
They are just, just, just, peace makers.... not
Revenge
At times ... I wish
I could meet in a duel
the man who killed my father
and razed our home,
expelling me
into
a narrow country.
And if he killed me,
I’d rest at last,
and if I were ready—
I would take my revenge!
*
But if it came to light,
when my rival appeared,
that he had a mother
waiting for him,
or a father who’d put
his right hand over
the heart’s place in his chest
whenever his son was late
even by just a quarter-hour
for a meeting they’d set—
then I would not kill him,
even if I could.
*
Likewise ... I
would not murder him
if it were soon made clear
that he had a brother or sisters
who loved him and constantly longed to see him.
Or if he had a wife to greet him
and children who
couldn’t bear his absence
and whom his gifts would thrill.
Or if he had
friends or companions,
neighbors he knew
or allies from prison
or a hospital room,
or classmates from his school...
asking about him
and sending him regards.
*
But if he turned
out to be on his own—
cut off like a branch from a tree—
without a mother or father,
with neither a brother nor sister,
wifeless, without a child,
and without kin or neighbors or friends,
colleagues or companions,
then I’d add not a thing to his pain
within that aloneness—
not the torment of death,
and not the sorrow of passing away.
Instead I’d be content
to ignore him when I passed him by
on the street—as I
convinced myself
that paying him no attention
in itself was a kind of revenge.
Ah, the hell with it. I'll waste the bastard!
Nazareth
April 15, 2006
Taha Muhammad Ali
Griff,
That is beautiful. It reminds me of this by Thich Nhat Hanh
Call Me by My True Names
Do not say that I'll depart tomorrow
because even today I still arrive.
Look deeply: I arrive in every second
to be a bud on a spring branch,
to be a tiny bird, with wings still fragile,
learning to sing in my new nest,
to be a caterpillar in the heart of a flower,
to be a jewel hiding itself in a stone.
I still arrive, in order to laugh and to cry,
in order to fear and to hope.
The rhythm of my heart is the birth and
death of all that are alive.
I am the mayfly metamorphosing on the surface of the river,
and I am the bird which, when spring comes, arrives in time
to eat the mayfly.
I am the frog swimming happily in the clear pond,
and I am also the grass-snake who, approaching in silence,
feeds itself on the frog.
I am the child in Uganda, all skin and bones,
my legs as thin as bamboo sticks,
and I am the arms merchant, selling deadly weapons to
Uganda.
I am the twelve-year-old girl, refugee on a small boat,
who throws herself into the ocean after being raped by a sea
pirate,
and I am the pirate, my heart not yet capable of seeing and
loving.
I am a member of the politburo, with plenty of power in my
hands,
and I am the man who has to pay his "debt of blood" to, my
people,
dying slowly in a forced labor camp.
My joy is like spring, so warm it makes flowers bloom in all
walks of life.
My pain if like a river of tears, so full it fills the four oceans.
Please call me by my true names,
so I can hear all my cries and laughs at once,
so I can see that my joy and pain are one.
Please call me by my true names,
so I can wake up,
and so the door of my heart can be left open,
the door of compassion.
Thich Nhat Hanh
Wow, just wow. Thats excellent.
The Gazans can show their fondness for peace and tranquility by summarily hanging and shooting all the Hamas in town, without exception. Perhaps an Ishmael or two might be able to outrun the peace activists, to make it back to Iran and tell the mullahs that try didn't work.
Gaza flotilla deaths can be blamed on Obama
According to a report by World Tribune, the nine deaths that occurred when Israeli commandos stormed the Free Gaza "aid" flotilla that tried to break Israel's maritime blockade of the Hamas-ruled territory last week can be largely blamed on US President Barack Obama.
The paper cited diplomatic sources that revealed Obama had demanded Israel "exercise extreme caution and restraint" and not use traditional non-lethal riot gear against the passengers, even after Israel shared intelligence showing the passenger of the Mavi Marmara were affiliated with a Turkish terror group and likely to offer violent resistance.
Had the Israelis boarded the Mavi Marmara with tear gas and rubber bullets, it is very likely there would have been no fatalities in the confrontation.
Instead, the Israeli commandos carried only paintball guns and pistols. They were quickly overwhelmed by dozens of "peace" activists wielding knives and clubs, and several of the Israelis were taken hostage. The second wave of commandos, understandably fearful that their captured comrades were being lynched or may end up like other abducted Israeli soldiers, quickly requested and received permission to use their sidearms.
In a misguided effort to prevent a violent clash by putting the Israeli commandos and the activists on equal f
Link
Not exactly an unbiased source. Are these people serious?
Is Israel really that much under the US control?
Right down to the weapons their commandos use?
:eyebrow: Color me skeptical.
Israel under US control? I've always thought it was the other way around...
:tinfoil:
... Are these people serious?
...
Everything is Obama's fault. Except good stuff.
Spexx, has it escaped your notice that Democratic Administrations have not for decades actually seriously attempted to decisively win any wars? They are no less eager, on the record, to get into the shooting than Republican Administrations, but the record says that somehow they never believe in actually winning in such clashes. They're not in it to win.
The Republicans, by contrast, think it is a virtue for the forces of democracy to win wars, especially with antidemocratic forces. And antidemocrats are the only foes we've shot at since 1898. Look it up if you don't want to just believe me. I already understand this and why shouldn't you?
(And the Libertarians potentially could think this way, and still, I think, be Libertarians. They don't -- yet.)
The last Democratic President to win a war was Truman. The last Dem President to attempt it was Johnson. For God's sake, even that was two generations ago.
Spexx, has it escaped your notice that Democratic Administrations have not for decades actually seriously attempted to decisively win any wars? They are no less eager, on the record, to get into the shooting than Republican Administrations, but the record says that somehow they never believe in actually winning in such clashes. They're not in it to win.
Cool. When do we start "winning" in the middle east? I thought the mission was accomplished but we just seem to be wallowing in mediocrity instead of actually winning anything. There's no money in the cure.
Spexx, has it escaped your notice that Democratic Administrations have not for decades actually seriously attempted to decisively win any wars? They are no less eager, on the record, to get into the shooting than Republican Administrations, but the record says that somehow they never believe in actually winning in such clashes. They're not in it to win.
.....
The last Democratic President to win a war was Truman. The last Dem President to attempt it was Johnson. For God's sake, even that was two generations ago.
The Bosnian war....with a combination of military force and forceful diplomacy (Dayton accord)....and only one US casualty.
It's not fucking worth it with UG, Redux. I made exactly the same point to him in exactly the same context:
here and
here. He did not pay attention. He is write-only.
Maybe if we say it louder.
[FONT="Trebuchet MS"][SIZE="5"]HEY! URBANE GUERILLA! [/size]
[size=7]BILL CLINTON WON THE GODDAMN BOSNIAN WAR!!!![/SIZE][/FONT]
It's not fucking worth it with UG, Redux. I made exactly the same point to him in exactly the same context: here and here. He did not pay attention. He is write-only.
Maybe if we say it louder.
[FONT="Trebuchet MS"][SIZE="5"]HEY! URBANE GUERILLA! [/size]
[size=7]CLINTON WON THE GODDAMN BOSNIAN WAR[/SIZE][/FONT]
Just giving him a third strike to swing at.
I'll go back to my coffee now.
Bosnia doesn't count, because we didn't gain any land, or raw materials, for the American [strike]empire[/strike] business interests.
Sorry about my late edits. My posts are first drafts for the first five minutes...
It's not fucking worth it with UG, Redux. I made exactly the same point to him in exactly the same context: here and here. He did not pay attention. He is write-only.
Maybe if we say it louder.
[FONT="Trebuchet MS"][SIZE="5"]HEY! URBANE GUERILLA! [/size]
[size=7]BILL CLINTON WON THE GODDAMN BOSNIAN WAR!!!![/SIZE][/FONT]
Rinse and repeat as necessary.
I would like salsa with my tortillas.
:rolleyes:
We should have ignored Bosnia completely. It was in the European backyard, they should have delt with it completely.
You wouldn't make that statement if it hadn't been
[SIZE="6"][FONT="Trebuchet MS"]Bill Clinton[/FONT][/SIZE]
who stopped a genocide of ethnic cleansing including
systematic mass rape and torture when he
[SIZE="6"][FONT="Trebuchet MS"]won the war[/FONT][/SIZE]
HA! I, for one, am loving UT's new posting style.
We should have ignored Saddam Hussien completely. He was in the Middle East's backyard, they should have delt with it completely.
Fixed that for ya.
You wouldn't make that statement if it hadn't been
[SIZE="6"][FONT="Trebuchet MS"]Bill Clinton[/FONT][/SIZE]
who stopped a genocide of ethnic cleansing including systematic mass rape and torture when he
[SIZE="6"][FONT="Trebuchet MS"]won the war[/FONT][/SIZE]
If that were true, then explain to me why he ignored Rwanda. That was on his watch. Or was it just because it was Africa and the people who were getting hacked to death, an estimated 800,000 in about 4 months, were black?
edit: having issues with my key board. should be clearer.
We should have ignored Bosnia completely.
You wouldn't make that statement if it hadn't been
[SIZE="6"][FONT="Trebuchet MS"]Bill Clinton[/FONT][/SIZE]
who stopped a genocide of ethnic cleansing including systematic mass rape and torture when he
[SIZE="6"][FONT="Trebuchet MS"]won the war[/FONT][/SIZE]
If that were the explain to me why he ignored Rwanda.
You should't jump to the next thing without either addressing/ conceding the first.
Oh and what the hell does that mean anyway.
Is this even a sentence? "If that were the explain to me why..."
You should't jump to the next thing without either addressing/ conceding the first.
Why is that? I could give a shit if it was Clinton. Many of our presidents have ignored genocides around the world though, so I guess Clinton could have ignored the one in Bosnia as well.
Oh and what the hell does that mean anyway.
Is this even a sentence? "If that were the explain to me why..."
fixed it.
I'm doing great man! Why do you ask? Should I be doing poorly? :D
Great to hear - so how are the kids?
Your daughter like her new car?
How was Mexico?
Hows work?
Hows your summer going?
All good man.
Bahamas, not Mexico.
Ohhh, where are the pics from your trip?
You had some real nice ones last year, IIRC.
BTW - I found this
interesting bwahahahaha
JERUSALEM (June 20) -- The Israeli navy's internal investigation into last month's Israeli takeover of a Turkish-flagged ship bound for Gaza has found serious defects in the way the operation was planned and the intelligence made available to the navy commandos. But it found that the officers acted properly based on the information they were given.
If that were true, then explain to me why he ignored Rwanda.
Perhaps he was estimating what could productively be done by force, and what could not.
Possible. But I don't think Rwanda had the same arms that Bosnia or Serbia had. I don't think Rwanda was on the back door of the Russians. If his only point was to prevent a genocide then it just does not follow the logic of some 10,000 killed in Bosina vs the 800,000 killed in Rwanda. They ignored Rwanda because it was Africa. The Europeans should have taken care of the issue.
BTW - I found this interesting bwahahahaha
It seems that the biggest mistake on Israel's part was misjudging who the protesters were and how to handle the situation. From what I heard, whoever was in charge of the raid assumed the boat was full of peaceful activists so they did not bring in the overwhelming amount of force they should have in that situation. If Israel's soldiers, or whoever they were, were not put in a defensive position no one would have gotten killed. And if no one got killed, the media would not have jumped all over it.
That is correct - their intel was faulty and they claimed they were told by the US that they were peaceful - hence the boarded with paintball guns instead of real weapons. Its back there somewhere in a link previously posted. I'm too lazy to go find it now.
Possible. But I don't think Rwanda had the same arms that Bosnia or Serbia had. I don't think Rwanda was on the back door of the Russians. If his only point was to prevent a genocide then it just does not follow the logic of some 10,000 killed in Bosina vs the 800,000 killed in Rwanda. They ignored Rwanda because it was Africa. The Europeans should have taken care of the issue.
For your argument to be consistent, Clinton would also have ignored Somalia, also in Africa. He didn't.
For your argument to be consistent, Clinton would also have ignored Somalia, also in Africa. He didn't.
He inherited Somalia and pulled out when things soured.
He inherited Somalia and pulled out when things soured.
We were not in Somalia because of a genocide. At least that is not what we were briefed.