Gulf coast oil spill
Well, crap. That's gonna make a mess.
Total. Mess.
I'm only in here to let Zen know I have decided to engage in the post count competition once again. You have been warned.... :)
I'm not far behind?
Let's take a moment to thank our Supreme Court, which whittled down a 5 billion dollar judgement in the Exxon Valdex incident that had already been reduced by an appeals court to 2.5 billion to
500 million.
Wow, I'll bet an angel earned his wings on that one.:right:
The high court said that under federal maritime law, punitive damages shouldn't be any larger than the compensatory damages the company had already been ordered to pay. In other words, the company shouldn't have to pay more in punishment than the actual damage it caused.
The flaw in that is that Alaska was not made whole. Exxon was unable to clean up the entire spill, so those compensatory damages did not accurately reflect all of the damage.
If I remember correctly, Exxon had record profits that year.
With this kind of precedent on the books, LA and the surrounding states are completely screwed.
BTW, I doubt a pre-GWB court would have reached this decision.
GWB, the gift that keeps on giving.
This could Totaly Screw up our Fla Vacation this year !!!!
Oh well thats what trip insurance is for .
I'm more interested in discovering what sort of technology they'll have to use to shut off an artesian petroleum spurt a mile underwater. That depth takes tough little submersibles, manned or remote. They're going to have to, you know.
Apparently they are using
dispersants to keep oil from surfacing. No mention of stopping the flow. The
impact will be terrible. How does this location compare to the Obama administration's new rules?
More than 200,000 gallons of oil a day are spewing from the blown-out well at the site of BP's Deepwater Horizon rig, which exploded April 20 and sank two days later. Crews are using at least six remotely operated vehicles to try to shut off an underwater valve, but so far they've been unsuccessful. Meanwhile, high winds and waves are pushing oily water over the booms meant to contain it. Besides BP, a slew of federal and state agencies are scrambling to minimize the onslaught of damage. NOLA, we hardly knew ye.
This is depressing on so many levels.
Crews are using at least six remotely operated vehicles to try to shut off an underwater valve, but so far they've been unsuccessful.
Keep in persective BP's reputation. For example, their maintenance of the Alaska pipeline is well known by all whose news is from news sources - not gossip or politically tainted sources. BP apparetly has some of the most unsafe refineries in the industry based upon the number of explosions and deaths.
This well head was about to be capped since drilling was almost complete. Well heads have a valve structure with both automatic and manually operated valves. Five days later, BP sort of requested help from everyone. Apparently did not say why. None of those many valves are working. The entire well was draining into the Gulf. BP simply underplayed the extent of an impending disaster (apparently for the same reasons why they also forgot to mention why the Alaska pipeline was at such serious risk).
About one week ago, this open well had the potetial of being larger than that largest oil spiil. No, that was not Exxon Valdez. An oil spile three times larger was earlier in Brooklyn by Mobil oil. Mobil also did not pay for the cleanup.
This spill has one additional problem. It will be picked up by the Gulf stream. It can spread aroung the FL coast and up the American Atlantic coast. A major spill was not carried by a major current. So we learn.
BP said that drilling rig was not at risk of sinking. One day later, it capsized. Why are those valves not working? Too few facts are forecoming from BP. Expect this oil spill to be much worse because BP is contantly suppressing facts. It is BP's history from many refinery fires and why the Alaska pipeline was not being properly cleaned.
I watched a bit of this on the Sunday morning show this am. I guess plenty of fishermen want to help clean up.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/01/us/01marsh.htmlWe had a similar offshore oil leak here a few months back, luckily for the company it was way off the uninhabited north west coast, so there was little angry reaction, but it took weeks for them to plug the leak. In this case, they had to drill another hole, intersecting with the first, and fill both with concrete, or something like that.
All those fishing communities, waterfront places, mangroves, wetlands, etc, might as well bend over and try to relax, cause they're about to get screwed.
It's a horrible and far-reaching situation. :(
I want to know how those 40' tall silo-thingys they're making to contain the oil are going to be placed in 5,000 ft of water. WTF?! And what do they need 3 of them for?
I'm pissed as hell about my beautiful Clearwater beaches being ruined. Not to mention the wildlife :mad2::sniff:.
I had a bunch of summer fun planned that involved the coast and coastal islands. Bet all that is fubar'd now.
I read that the high-tech shut off valve would have cost $500k, so BP declined to install it. Now the cleanup is estimated to cost into the billions. :eek:
Blame Classicman and merc.
Keep in persective BP's reputation. For example, their maintenance of the Alaska pipeline is well known by all whose news is from news sources - not gossip or politically tainted sources. BP apparetly has some of the most unsafe refineries in the industry based upon the number of explosions and deaths.
I'll have to take your word for it. Got no idea which company is safer than another.
In ironic twist, BP finalist for pollution prevention award
BP, now under federal scrutiny because of its role in the deadly Gulf of Mexico explosion and oil spill, is one of three finalists for a federal award honoring offshore oil companies for "outstanding safety and pollution prevention."
The winner of the award - chosen before the April 20 oil rig incident - was to be announced this coming Monday at a luncheon in Houston. But the U.S. Department of Interior this week postponed the awards ceremony, saying it needs to devote its resources to the ongoing situation resulting from the Deepwater Horizon oil rig explosion and fire.
Eleven workers are presumed dead and an estimated 5,000 barrels of oil are leaking every day from the well. The cause of the explosion is still unknown.
A spokeswoman for the Interior Department's Minerals Management Service said she did not know which of the three finalists for the non-monetary award had been selected, nor did she say whether the current circumstances could influence the decision if BP was the winner.
I would certainly hope that this would influence their decision. WTH?
gas is up to 2.89 - was 2.67 pre-spill. sheesh.
I think that was more due to the seasonal increase.
I don't believe the rate hikes from this spill have started yet.
Why would this spill cause rate hikes? Maybe down the road if it results in greater safety regulations that cost more. But the oil lost is relatively small compared to the entire oil supply out there. It's huge in terms of an oil spill, but it's a drop in the bucket compared to what we use.
BP is going to lose a lot of money, and they may raise prices a little, but if they raise them too much, people will just shop elsewhere.
Everything that happens in the free world, and the not-so-free world, is an excuse for rising gas prices. Oil as god has its shiny hand in everything!
Stormieweather seems to have
cofferdams in mind. Exerpt:
While oil continues to pour out, containment is the best strategy. BP has rushed to produce giant domes called cofferdams that it intends to place over the leaking well head, to isolate the oil from the surrounding sea. The plan would then be to pump the trapped oil and water mix into storage barges on the surface. It will take at least a week to fit these domes, and engineers are uncertain how they will perform at deep sea pressures.
raise hikes? I imagine corporate suites dropping hankies on the floor with price increments of,2, 5,10 and 20 cent markups or downs written on them. Someone yells go and the first hankie picked up is the new price increase or decrease for the day. yay!
Who's responsible for this disaster? The Wall Street Journal says, it looks like
Haliburton.:eyebrow:
We had a similar offshore oil leak here a few months back,..
Halliburton also was the cementer on a well that suffered a big blowout last August in the Timor Sea, off Australia. The rig there caught fire and a well leaked tens of thousands of barrels of oil over 10 weeks before it was shut down. The investigation is continuing; Halliburton declined to comment on it.
oopsie
aside- Part of the natural gas cluster foxtrot in Dimock, PA was related to improper cementing.
I'm pissed as hell about my beautiful Clearwater beaches being ruined. Not to mention the wildlife :mad2::sniff:.
I need to get out to Fort Desoto and St. Pete Beach before this makes mess makes it way south. Have a drink or three with my feet in sand while its still quartz-white. :(
"Gasoline prices are rising nationwide as the summer driving season nears, and oil futures appear poised for a breakout on encouraging economic news and fears about the seriousness of the Gulf of Mexico oil spill.
Over the last week, pump prices saw their biggest jump in more than a month, according to the Energy Department's weekly survey of U.S. filling stations.
Nationwide, the average price of a gallon of regular gasoline rose 4.9 cents to $2.898. In California it rose 3 cents to $3.118."
Haliburton? This does not inspire confidence.
Reminds me of the bad days at home of Amoco Cadiz, Erika, Torrey Canyon that went to shore with full shipments of oil...
At the end of 1999, I went to help collecting oil from the Erika on the differents beaches at home...
Can you spell Sisyphus ?
I need to get out to Fort Desoto and St. Pete Beach before this makes mess makes it way south. Have a drink or three with my feet in sand while its still quartz-white. :(
I know :thepain:. I was going to have my daughter's 5th birthday celebration at Fort Desoto. She's never been. And now, it may never be the same again /sob.
Schwarzenegger, whose administration as recently as Friday defended the proposed Tranquillon Ridge offshore drilling project, said images of the spill in the gulf changed his mind.
Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/05/03/MN1Q1D8SRP.DTL#ixzz0mybHZVqd
Once again, it takes a catastrophe to convince people.
Yeah, a carefully orchestrated catastrophe. :tinfoil:
Blame Classicman and merc.
Why do you want to suck my cock?
Stormieweather seems to have cofferdams in mind. Exerpt:
BP has rushed to produce giant domes called cofferdams that it intends to place over the leaking well head
This is not correct. The initial dome/cofferdam would not be placed over the wellhead. They would be placed over the end of the severed riser which is some distance from the well head. The majority of the oil is pouring from this location. Others may be placed over smaller leaks in the riser line as well. There is no plan to place one over the wellhead itself. They need to keep that as clear as possible for additional repairs on the failed BOP unit.
Why would this spill cause rate hikes? Maybe down the road if it results in greater safety regulations that cost more. But the oil lost is relatively small compared to the entire oil supply out there. It's huge in terms of an oil spill, but it's a drop in the bucket compared to what we use.
BP is going to lose a lot of money, and they may raise prices a little, but if they raise them too much, people will just shop elsewhere.
This rig was not yet in production, so this spill does not impact what's available on the market unless other Gulf rigs are shut down due to oil slick.
As for BP's losses, yes they will be responsible for cleanup costs, however their liability for non-cleanup related costs are capped at $75MM. This cap was put in place by Congress after the Exxon Valdez spill in Alaska.
I want to know how those 40' tall silo-thingys they're making to contain the oil are going to be placed in 5,000 ft of water. WTF?! And what do they need 3 of them for?
I'm pissed as hell about my beautiful Clearwater beaches being ruined. Not to mention the wildlife :mad2::sniff:.
I had a bunch of summer fun planned that involved the coast and coastal islands. Bet all that is fubar'd now.
I read that the high-tech shut off valve would have cost $500k, so BP declined to install it. Now the cleanup is estimated to cost into the billions. :eek:
The oil is not leaking from the well head. The majority is leaking from the end of the severed riser (pipe that ran between the wellhead and surface rig) There are also two lesser leaks from cracks which formed in the riser due to bending/flexing stress that it was not designed to withstand.
Here's a pic of the units that are going to be laced over the severed end and leaking cracks in the riser
There will be a pipe that attaches to the tops of these units to allow the oil to be brought to the surface vessels
Hope it works
Cofferdams and pumps ? May be
But how long will they be pumping ?
Will they continue theirs attemps at closing that damned thing ?
Cofferdams and pumps ? May be
But how long will they be pumping ?
Will they continue theirs attemps at closing that damned thing ?
My assumption is that these are temporary solutions to be in place until they can drill an intercepting well, seal off the one leaking which will then cut off the oil flow to the leaking riser. At that point the cofferdams would no longer be needed.
gas is up to 2.89 - was 2.67 pre-spill. sheesh.
I think that was more due to the seasonal increase.
I don't believe the rate hikes from this spill have started yet.
We must be a week behind you Bri. Our gas just shot up more than $.10 to over $2.90 around here ... just in the last couple days.
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/Time-for-some-oil-spill-perspective-92810479.html#ixzz0n6Epi66e
Hmmmm
Oil that seeps naturally from the ocean floor puts 47 million gallons of crude into U.S. waters annually. Thus far, Deepwater Horizon has leaked about three million gallons. That sounds like a lot of oil, and it is. But the Exxon Valdez leaked 11 million gallons into Alaska's Prince William Sound. Even those figures are dwarfed, according to the Economist, by the amount of oil spilled in man-made disasters elsewhere around the world. Saddam Hussein's destruction of Kuwaiti oil facilities during the Gulf War dumped more than 500 million barrels of crude into the Arabian Gulf. The 1979 blowout of Mexico's Ixtoc 1 well resulted in 3.3 million barrels being dumped into the Gulf of Mexico.
Criminy - I saw regular unleaded for $3.09 on my way home today WTF?
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/Time-for-some-oil-spill-perspective-92810479.html#ixzz0n6Epi66e
Hmmmm
The 1979 blowout of Mexico's Ixtoc 1 well resulted in 3.3 million barrels being dumped into the Gulf of Mexico.
Something doesn't sound right about that Ixtoc number. That spill ran for 9 months....
OK Flickster, fess up... are you in the oil business? :haha:
OK Flickster, fess up... are you in the oil business? :haha:
Not directly - provide services to engineering firms, some of which do oil & gas related projects
Yeah, you seemed to be up on the subject. Thanks for the information.
BP is responsible, but I think it's Haliburton's fault, from what I've read.
My assumption is that these are temporary solutions
... which means three months and not during periods of extreme weather. Let's see. When does hurricane season start?
Well, BP who originally put the spill at 1000 gallons per day now estimates the number may be ten times higher than their latest numbers - 200,000 gallons per day.
Oh. And Haliburton refuses to testify before Congress. Blackwater was a division of Haliburton.
Yeah, you seemed to be up on the subject. Thanks for the information.
BP is responsible, but I think it's Haliburton's fault, from what I've read.
The well completion process, including the cementing, performed in this case by Haliburton, is way beyond my realm of associated knowledge. I too have read that theory, but at this point it's only a theory. Another is that the pressure buildup was not detected, or went unnoticed, by the operator.
My hope is that when this as all said and done, they are able to determine exactly what went wrong and use that information to prevent this from ever happening again.
... which means three months and not during periods of extreme weather. Let's see. When does hurricane season start?
Well, BP who originally put the spill at 1000 gallons per day now estimates the number may be ten times higher than their latest numbers - 200,000 gallons per day.
Oh. And Haliburton refuses to testify before Congress. Blackwater was a division of Haliburton.
To my knowledge there has not been a Congressional investigation regarding this spill. At this point I think there are still far too many questions as to what happened.
An investigation of what happened after the explosion could advance, but Haliburton was not included in those activities.
As for hurricane season....your point is? Not sure how surface conditions affect conditions 5,000 feet below. As for any surface activity, rigs ride out storms all the time. They do evacuate during severe storms, but the rig remains in place.
To my knowledge there has not been a Congressional investigation regarding this spill.
I should have said Federal investigation - not Congressional.
Cementing is a process where the cement must be carefully measured, mixed, and inserted. If cement remains, then a serious and dangerous problem exists. Not known is what Haliburton is supposed to do next.
Apparently the explosion happened two hours after Haliburton applied their cement. Since Haliburton is not talking, almost nothing about the cement process is known.
Alarms should sound if a blowout is detected. None did. Question as to whether those alarms were disabled or if Haliburton did something to subvert alarms and the Blow Out Protector are unknown.
Rig only does something if connected to a ship. No ship means oils flows uncollected. Storms such as last week means a ship may not be able to remain connected.
I should have said Federal investigation - not Congressional.
Cementing is a process where the cement must be carefully measured, mixed, and inserted. If cement remains, then a serious and dangerous problem exists. Not known is what Haliburton is supposed to do next.
Apparently the explosion happened two hours after Haliburton applied their cement. Since Haliburton is not talking, almost nothing about the cement process is known.
Alarms should sound if a blowout is detected. None did. Question as to whether those alarms were disabled or if Haliburton did something to subvert alarms and the Blow Out Protector are unknown.
Rig only does something if connected to a ship. No ship means oils flows uncollected. Storms such as last week means a ship may not be able to remain connected.
There are many different types of rigs and surface processing vessels. From what I'm reading on the spill containment/capture, this will go directly to a surface processing vessel, where the oil & water will be separated. My guess would be an FPSO or the like.
Latest report I'm seeing from the AP, the blame is being placed on a bubble of methane, which could also point to some issues with the cementing process.
Latest report I'm seeing from the AP, the blame is being placed on a bubble of methane, which could also point to some issues with the cementing process.
This problem occurred (apparently) due to heating of that cement - the curing process.
Ironically, nine BP executives were on the rig when the explosion ripped into the party room. They were celebrating the rig's extraordinary safety record.
Too many things failed simultaneously. The process should have been monitored by those doing the cementing. Alarms should have gone off. They didn't. Chains of safety systems - altogether called a blow out preventer - did not work. Robots could not turn off valves manually. And BP quietly admitted that the leak may be 10 times larger than 5000 barrels per day. That means nothing even partially cut off the flow.
Well, the dome has failed. Hydrates are freezing - clogging the pipe. At that depth, even methane is at near freezing points. A complicated thermodynamic problem.
Yeah, you seemed to be up on the subject. Thanks for the information.
BP is responsible, but I think it's Haliburton's fault, from what I've read.
No, no, no.... blame it on Bush.
No, no, no.... blame it on Bush.
So rally up the tea partiers and burn down the country. Extremists will find enemies hiding everywhere.
Clearly it was bin Laden. But since Bush protected bin Laden, we must blame someone else. I hear Nessy left the Loch now that Conservatives were taking over the government. Clearly we should blame it on a foreigner – even if it is not human.
Lies, lies, and more lies. And finally we are hearing what investigators have been confronting.
How much oil was flowing into the Gulf? From video, BP would have known this all along. That 18 inch diameter pipe was always flowing full open. Just from the video, BP knew oil flow was easily 200,000 gallons per day - probably more. BP hid this fact even when the White House demanded to know the numbers. BP made early statements such as 1000 gallons hoping that (for example) robot submarines would cut off the oil before we knew how extreme it was. Public image - to even deny to the White House the impending disaster - was more important.
The White House even demanded those videos. BP openly refused. BP would have known oil flow was maximum by simply measuring how quickly that massive oil cap 'filled'. And still BP would not admit the severity of that failure. Instead, only quietly admitting to the White House that the flow was probably worse than they had said - when BP already knew the numbers were worse.
BP told federal authorities that BP had plans for such 'accidents'. As the cap demonstrated, BP had no plans - no contingencies. BP built the cap from scratch without every having even tested this solution. Therefore BP did not even know about thermodynamic problems that would cause that cap to fail. BP did no plannnig for such leaks - another lie to federal authorities.
We now know that BP knew the blowout preventer had failed hours before an explosion occurred. Previous tests (including a negative pressure test) failed.
Worse, is the state of that blowout preventer. At least one critical hydraulic line was not tightened. Apparently one nut was many turns too loose. So hydraulic fluids, essential to prevent a blowout, could not flow.
Also in this safety device are two controllers for dead man operation. If nothing else worked, these electronics devices would initiate a safety cut off on their own. One controller was removed. Its battery was dead. That is typical when (due to problems directly traceable in management) basic maintenance is not performed. Why management is responsible for creating check lists and other procedures so that humans do not make mistakes.
Another system in the BOP would crush the pipe. Apparently the BOP did not have sufficient strength to crush that type of pipe. These kind of mistakes are not even close to being called an accident.
BP's knowledge for addressing this problem was so minimal that even Exxon had to teach BP that disperants should be applied directly into the well. Until informed by Exxon, BP did not even know this. So much for those existing plans that BP claimed to have.
Unknown is why this blow out occurred. However testimony from a support ship (asked to remain on scene due to unknown problems) observed a massive mud flow long before any explosion. So much mud as to pour from the rig's deck. Crews obviously knew long in advance that a problem existed. More than sufficient time to activate the blowout preventer. Eventually, mud was followed by a massive gas bubble (probably methane) that eventually filled rooms where the gas found ignition sources - exploded.
Unknown how long the blowout was ongoing before the entire rig eventually exploded. But this we do know. Crews knew for a serious problem existed with plenty of time to avert the disaster - if the so many safety systems worked. The ship that was asked to standby rescued all survivors - 115 of the 126 that were on that rig.
Every critical safety system on that BOP apparently was defective. BP knew long ago that they had bad wiring, a pressure problem, and that the BOP that had already failed a negative pressure test. All facts that BP would not admit to until Congress forced them to give up the documents.
We do not even know who asked that ship to standby - or why.
Meanwhile, we also know oil booms to contain oil are mostly for show. Those booms do nothing except in the most calm waters. Over three weeks later, we only only beginning to learn how much they knew - and did not want us to know.
Like Three Mile Island, the Challenger, and the Columbia - all failures directly traceable to multiple failures in top management. Lies, lies, and more lies from BP make this failure that much more suspicious.
Who technically failed to do their jobs? Halliburton? The BOP manufacturer? We do not yet know. What we do know is that BP has been lying repeatedly. That casts major suspicions on BP's topmost executives - whose actions would also explain the massive refinerary explosion in Texas and the Alaska pipeline failure directly traceable to maintenance that BP was paid to perform - and did not perform.
BP that called itself 'Beyond Petroleum' in an advertising campaign to promote itself as a 'green' company is also a boldface lying company - according to facts that were finally released.
We do not even know who asked that ship to standby - or why.
Maybe because there was some BP big shots on the rig for a party? They escaped, but at least one was injured in the explosion.
Maybe because there was some BP big shots on the rig for a party? They escaped, but at least one was injured in the explosion.
That seems likely. Didn't the blowout valve fail a pressure test that morning? I wonder if they didn't put on the show the big hats wanted despite the potential problem.
BP: Big Fines, Good News
Brian Wingfield 10.25.07
It's been rough few years for BP. Allegations of illegal propane trading. Massive oil spills in Alaska. A deadly explosion at a Texas refinery. All this since 2003. Such catastrophes would cripple or kill most companies.
In an effort to wipe the slate clean and return to the business of making money - which it seems to do very well - the London-based oil and gas giant agreed Thursday to:
*pay $373 million in fines and restitution for violating U.S. environmental laws and defrauding customers through manipulation of energy markets. In addition,
*four of its former traders were charged with wire fraud, mail fraud and conspiring to corner the propane market.
*The company must pay must pay $50 million for a March 2005 explosion at the company's Texas City refinery that killed 15 contractors and injured more than 170 others.
The fine is part of BP's penalty for pleading guilty to violating the Clean Air Act when it failed to keep dangerous gases from being released at the refinery. The fine--the largest ever assessed under this particular environmental law--comes with a three year probationary period. BP will pay:
*$12 million in criminal fines, as well as
*$4 million to the National Fish and Wildlife Foundation and
*$4 million to the state of Alaska, for violating the Clean Water Act and for its criminal liability due to crude oil leaks from its pipelines in 2006. The fines in this case are part of a separate guilty plea by BP.
Finally, the company agreed to pay:
*$100 million criminal penalty fee, plus
*$25 million to the U.S. Postal Inspection Consumer Fraud Fund,
as well as a
*$125 million civil penalty to the Commodity Futures Trading Commission so the company can defer prosecution in an Illinois court for conspiring to commit mail and wire fraud.
And if that weren't enough, the company must pay
*$53 million to victims of its propane trading scheme
the largest manipulation settlement in the history of the CFTC.
"These agreements are an admission that, in these instances, our operations failed to meet our own standards and the requirements of the law," said BP America Chairman and President Bob Malone, in a statement. "For that, we apologize."
BP's recent run-ins with the law began more than four years ago, when propane traders tried to sell the fuel at an artificially high price in 2003 and 2004. The refinery explosion the following year was the next blow for the company. But in March 2006 came the biggest PR disaster of all: a 200,000-gallon oil spill onto an Alaskan tundra and frozen lake, the biggest in the history of the state's North Slope. Five months later, a 1,000 gallon oil leak exposed further negligence of BP's pipelines.
Sounds like quite a drubbing for any company to take. And BP has already coughed up at least $1.6 billion to compensate the victims of the explosion, the company says.
Link
A link with some of BP's history and its fines/penalties.
BP had just come off probation in 2008.
**Note the date of this article...(top of the page)
And it looks like [SIZE="1"]drumroll[/SIZE]
But the date says 11/05/2010????
May 11th 2010 is 11/05/10 in many countries.
It's called spin. Tell someone something. Then facts based in reality that arrive later will be challenged. Humans just do not challenge the first fact with equal vigor. From the NY Times of 14 May 2010:
Size of Oil Spill Underestimated, Scientists Say
Two weeks ago, the government put out a round estimate of the size of the oil leak in the Gulf of Mexico: 5,000 barrels a day. Repeated endlessly in news reports, it has become conventional wisdom.
But scientists and environmental groups are raising sharp questions about that estimate, declaring that the leak must be far larger. They also criticize BP for refusing to use well-known scientific techniques that would give a more precise figure. ...
BP later acknowledged to Congress that the worst case, if the leak accelerated, would be 60,000 barrels a day, a flow rate that would dump a plume the size of the Exxon Valdez spill into the gulf every four days. BP's chief executive, Tony Hayward, has estimated that the reservoir tapped by the out-of-control well holds at least 50 million barrels of oil.
So is this an Exxon Valdez scale disaster? No. Other factors apply such as this is 'sweeter' oil, water temperature, and oil dissipation causing natural actions to become more effective.
May 11th 2010 is 11/05/10 in many countries.
I repeatedly write it as 11 Sept for the same reason.
NATO, for example, does not permit 11/05/10 or 05/11/10 phrasing because the date (as shown on the picture) is how most of the world does it. As if we do not create enough confusion in the world with inches, pounds, and miles. Or waste a perfectly good spacecraft to Mars because America still uses different number systems.
One number that is standard - barrels. And British Petroleum still cannot get it right?
One number that is standard - barrels. And British Petroleum still cannot get it right?
Ah. Ha ha. I love a funny tw.
What happens when an industry benchmark is based in a drinking song. The Barrel Polka:
Roll out the barrel.
We'll have a barrel of fun. ...
Well, the president got pissed at them today. Dad just does not understand how much fun they are having down there in New Orleans.
Can someone contextualize this a bit for me?
How much would the Deepwater Horizon have been pumping, if all things were perfect, per day? or: How does the spill compare to an oil rig that's just dumping it over the side?
How large is the deposit / reservoir of oil that is being tapped? or: how much oil will be left after they cap this thing with the relief well in 2 months?
Maybe because there was some BP big shots on the rig for a party? They escaped, but at least one was injured in the explosion.
NPR reported that the ship was there in a supply role before the explosion.
Ther might be some answers at
The Oil Drum?
Thanks, Buster. 50 to 100 million barrels in that hole.
How much would the Deepwater Horizon have been pumping, if all things were perfect, per day? ...
How large is the deposit / reservoir of oil that is being tapped?
Deepwater Horizon is a drilling rig. It does not pump oil. They were in the process of moving out - the process of capping a completed oil well. Another platform would have taken over to pump oil.
I believe my previous post listed the estimated size of that well and estimates of how much is being released daily.
NPR reported that the ship was there in a supply role before the explosion.
Originally. But the ship was asked to standby for reasons that were not provided. As reported only from one crewman on that ship.
Thanks BB. Great link.
To answer my questions:
1)
Similar wells seem to produce roughly 40,000 barrels/day (+/- 2-5k) at peak production. I haven't really come across a coherent discussion of productive oil flow vs. hypothetical absolutely unchecked oil flow, but it is pretty clear that 70,000 b/d would be an extremely productive well.
2) via xoB, "50 to 100 million." (It's somewhere in the 400+ comments to the post linked above; great reading, kind of hits the full spectrum of the arguments.)
As an aside, one significant complicating factor that is discussed in threads on The Oil Drum attempting to estimate the size of the spill, but that I haven't really come across anywhere else (MSM, here, etc), is that the well is spewing a mixture of both natural gas and crude oil. If you're strictly concerned with an oil slick coming to shore, your volumetric estimates need to account for what that ratio is -- which is unknown, but apparently quite high at this particular well/deposit. Said volumetric estimates are also complicated because a particle velocity analysis needs to somehow distinguish between particle acceleration due to gas expansion and particles just accelerating out of the pipe.
I'm finding my internal, personal guess trending towards something more moderate since I read through those comments. But I'm more convinced than ever that BP is deliberately obscuring all information about the whole damn thing.
But that expansion coming out of the pipe is legitimate, the stuff isn't going to get smaller in volume again, so what they observe in the video is real volume. I think
these guys are probably right.
But I'm more convinced than ever that BP is deliberately obscuring all information about the whole damn thing.
What makes you think they know? BP is a big operation, but much of what they do is contracted out, and those contractors aren't going to tell BP any more than they have to. They're all covering there asses too.
I think the idea is that a lot of the volume is gas rather than oil. When you watch the video you can see the oil/gas mix change every few seconds as the plume changes from black to silvery bubbles. I guess a "natural gas slick" isn't as bad as an oil slick.
New Scientist has a discussion of the amount
here; the answers generally fall in the 50 to 100 thousand barrel per day range.
Right now the thing to do is stop the flow, but let us not forget: eleven people died on that rig, and the blow-out preventer was supposed to prevent that, too.
What makes you think they know? BP is a big operation, but much of what they do is contracted out, and those contractors aren't going to tell BP any more than they have to. They're all covering there asses too.
Yeah, maybe more than anything what strikes me is the reluctance to admit what they don't know. I accept that this is pretty deeply entrenched in (corporate) culture. But they're throwing up a lot of weird delays that don't make sense in today's media world: after the first containment dome failed, they took
a 48-hour breather to decide what to do next.
By way of comparison, the Times Square Car Bomb fiasco resulted in an arrest in
53 hours. It's not that a lot of important auxiliary work wasn't being done: they've cleared a bunch of wreckage, and at 5,000' it makes sense if things move a little slower.
But, in terms of the 'body language' of a PR campaign, these few weeks of BP trying to manage the fallout has felt very crude and blatant. The assessment which rings most true to me is that they are making a bunch of distracting noise while doing the only thing that has an established shot at working: digging relief wells to plug the whole thing.
I think overall, that's where my interest lies: the specifics of how much is spilling, when will it stop, how much will it affect things, etc-- all that is pretty much whatever it will be. I don't eat seafood, I don't live anywhere near the gulf coast. But how we perceive information intrigues me, and, particularly, the changing face of what it means to 'be transparent' or to share information. I think delaying things, releasing limited information (a few 60 second clips from their ROVs? why not a few hours, crowdsource that shit; etc) does BP a PR disservice. But they might have gotten away with it 5 years ago. That's an interesting change to me.
And, at the same time, there seems to me to be a (bipartisan) trend towards moral outrage coming to outweigh logical, direct interpretations of law: tea partiers and ecoterrorists have similar trajectories, in a way. So it's social and cultural consequences, maybe, that I'm after. After the Exxon Valdez adventure, the
initial punitive damages were set at one years' profit. That didn't stick, but it raises the question: what sort of ecological disaster is significant enough to put a multinational corporation on the scale of BP or Exxon out of business? How do you begin to draw that line?
And, at the same time, there seems to me to be a (bipartisan) trend towards moral outrage coming to outweigh logical, direct interpretations of law:
Political posturing in an effort to gain favor for the next election.
tea partiers and ecoterrorists have similar trajectories, in a way.
Not even close, apples and oranges.
So it's social and cultural consequences, maybe, that I'm after. After the Exxon Valdez adventure, the initial punitive damages were set at one years' profit. That didn't stick, but it raises the question: what sort of ecological disaster is significant enough to put a multinational corporation on the scale of BP or Exxon out of business? How do you begin to draw that line?
You can't and will not be able to put a large multi-national out of business. If it is destruction of the company you are after it is not going to happen, the best you could hope for is that it would be swallowed up, in business terms, by another company, and business would go on as usual. But is that the goal? Is that the end we want? No. I don't think so.
I noticed a lot of the pictures on various websites, of every political stripe, are watermarked Greenpeace.
I was sent a great PDF with some fantastic pics, and a subsequent extensive commentary. If I could figure out a way to post a link to it I would. The pics were great. I forwarded it to my friend in the UK who was an engineer on Off-shore drilling rigs for 15 years. He had some interesting comments as well as to what happened.
Eyewitness testimony from CBS's 60 Minutes. Obviously, these failures are not accidents:
Deepwater Horizon's Blowout Part 1 of 2 and
Deepwater Horizon's Blowout Part 2 of 2The chief U.S. oversight official for offshore oil drilling resigned today, four weeks after a rig disaster in the Gulf of Mexico that killed 11 workers, sank the vessel and triggered leaks that have spewed millions of gallons of crude into the sea.
Chris Oynes, associate director of the offshore energy and minerals management program for the Interior Department’s Minerals Management Service, has left his job, Bill Lee, an agency spokesman, said in an interview.
Oynes left amid heightened scrutiny of the rigorousness of rig-safety inspections and mounting criticism of what U.S. Representative Darrell Issa, a Republican, described as the agency’s “too cozy” relationship with the energy industry.
Interior Secretary Ken Salazar announced plans last week to split the minerals service into separate agencies with safety and revenue-collecting duties. The minerals agency is the largest source of U.S. Treasury funds behind the Internal Revenue Service, generating about $13 billion a year.
LinkOffshore drilling agency refuses to send witness to Senate oil spill hearingThe federal agency that regulates offshore oil drilling declined to send a witness to the Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee’s hearing Monday on the federal response to the massive Gulf of Mexico oil spill, Committee Chairman Joe Lieberman (I-Conn.) said.
The committee had requested the appearance of a top official from the Interior Department’s Minerals Management Service. Lieberman’s panel is probing the adequacy of BP’s federally approved oil drilling and spill response plans.
“I regret that the MMS leadership has chosen not to appear before our committee today because they really need to be asked the same questions I am going to ask Homeland Security, the Coast Guard and BP,” Lieberman said Monday afternoon as the hearing commenced.
The Monday hearing includes Department of Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano, a top U.S. Coast guard official and BP America President Lamar McKay. Lieberman said that the committee may ask Interior Secretary Ken Salazar or an MMS official to appear at a subsequent hearing.
Salazar is testifying Tuesday before two other Senate committees about the catastrophic accident at the Deepwater Horizon offshore rig: Energy and Natural Resources, and Environment and Public Works.
Lieberman opened the hearing with an attack on federal oversight of offshore drilling. He faulted MMS for approving inadequate BP plans.
“Did our government, through MMS, require an oil spill response plan adequate to the widest range of possible dangers, including the failure of a blowout preventer?,” Lieberman said, referring to a failure of device that is supposed to cut off damaged wells. “It sure appears that they did not.”
Link BP: effort to plug Gulf oil spill going as planned
COVINGTON, La. – BP started pumping heavy mud into the leaking Gulf of Mexico well Wednesday and said everything was going as planned in the company's boldest attempt yet to plug the gusher that has spewed millions of gallons of oil over the last five weeks.
BP hoped the mud could overpower the steady stream of oil, but chief executive Tony Hayward said it would be at least 24 hours before officials know whether the attempt has been successful. The company wants to eventually inject cement into the well to seal it.
"I'm sure many of you have been watching the plume," Hayward said from Houston. "All I can say is it is unlikely to give us any real indication of what is going on. Either increases or decreases are not an indicator of either success or failure at this time."
The stakes are high. Fishermen, hotel and restaurant owners, politicians and residents along the coast are fed up with BP's so far ineffective attempts to stop the oil leak that sprang after an offshore drilling rig exploded April 20. Eleven workers were killed, and by the most conservative estimate, 7 million gallons of crude have spilled into the Gulf, fouling Louisiana's marshes and coating birds and other wildlife.
"We're doing everything we can to bring it to closure, and actually we're executing this top kill job as efficiently and effectively as we can," BP Chief Operating Officer Suttles said Wednesday night.
The top kill has worked above ground but has never before been tried 5,000 feet beneath the sea. Company officials peg its chance of success at 60 to 70 percent.
President Barack Obama said "there's no guarantees" it will work. The president planned a trip to Louisiana on Friday.
"We're going to bring every resource necessary to put a stop to this thing," he said.
Link
Not sure what they could do, but the clocks been ticking for over a month.
I wonder what "heavy mud" is?
The humans are apparently in way over their heads on this one.
Sorry everyone, this is partly my fault. I've been using oil for years, so I feel somewhat responsible.
Engineers have at least temporarily stopped the flow of oil and gas into the Gulf of Mexico from a gushing BP well, the federal government's top oil-spill commander, U.S. Coast Guard Adm. Thad Allen, said Thursday morning.
The "top kill" effort, launched Wednesday afternoon by industry and government engineers, had pumped enough drilling fluid to block oil and gas spewing from the well, Allen said. The pressure from the well was very low, he said, but persisting. The top kill effort is not complete, officials caution.
Once engineers had reduced the well pressure to zero, they were to begin pumping cement into the hole to entomb the well. To help in that effort, he said, engineers also were pumping some debris into the blowout preventer at the top of the well.
Link
Looks like they are, hopefully, having some success with getting this under control. The timing couldn't have been better either.
The timing couldn't have been better either.
Well, they could have done it a month ago. I think that would have been better.
Smart ass. :rolleyes: I was referring to Obama's press conference.
I wonder what "heavy mud" is?
Drilling mud is usually a clay and water mixture. A common drilling mud is made of bentonite clay and is called gel. A heavier drilling mud can be made by adding barite (BaSO,). Various chemicals are also used in different situations. The drilling mud liquid is usually water (freshwater based or salt-water-based) but is sometimes oil-based. Drilling muds are described by their weight. Water weighs 8.3 pounds per gallon. Average bentonite drilling mud weighs from 9 to 10 pounds per gallon. Heavy drilling mud weighs from 15 to 20 pounds per gallon. The heavier the drilling mud, the greater the pressure it exerts on the bottom of the well.
Circulating drilling mud serves several purposes. The mud removes cuttings from the bottom of the well. As the mud flows across the bit, it cleans cuttings from the teeth. The drilling mud cools the bit from heat generated by the friction of drilling. In very soft sediments, such as in a coastal plain, the jetting action of the drilling mud squirting out of the bit on the bottom of the well helps cut the well. The drilling mud also controls pressures in the well and prevents blowouts. At the bottom of the well, there are two fluid pressures. Pressure on fluids in the rock tries to cause the fluids to flow into the well. Pressure exerted by the weight of the drilling mud tries to force the drilling mud into the surrounding rocks. If the pressure on the fluid in the subsurface rock is greater than the pressure of the drilling mud, the water, gas, or oil will flow out of the rock into the well. This often causes the sides of the well to cave or stuff in, trapping the equipment. In extreme cases, it causes a blowout. In order to control subsurface fluid pressure, the weight of the drilling mud is adjusted to exert a greater pressure on the bottom of the well. This is called overbalance, and the drilling mud is then forced into the surrounding rocks. The rocks act as a filter, and the solid mud particles cake to the sides of the well as the fluids enter the rock. This filter or mud cake is very hard. Once the filter cake has formed, the sides of the well are stabilized and subsurface fluids cannot enter the well.
From
here. Interesting stuff!
The heavy mud seems to be working for now. At this point as much as 29.5 million gallons of oil may have been spewed out. There are concerns with the hurricane season approaching that oil slicked waves could slosh inland creating even more damage.
I heard on NPR this morning that the plants in the wetlands may all be killed off. This would be a terrible blow for those ecosystems. Never mind all the animals that depend on them, the roots of the plants help hold the soil in place. Dead roots mean all the soil will be all washed out to sea, leaving empty waste lands behind. :(
what about the important things - like bourbon street?
It is interesting that petroleum is generally measured in barrels. Yet this spill is being invariably publicized in US news outlets in gallons. 42 gallons to the barrel. Is someone trying to make it sound bigger or something?
Sam, delta mud would be immediately replaced if washed out to sea. What's making the Mississippi Delta again?
And in due -- geologic -- course, the Mississippi River delta deposits will themselves become source rock for petroleum and natural gas.
Hey, report it in liters and really be amazed! ;)
I believe that the reason the top kill wasn't attempted sooner is that it takes a while to put the equipment onto place, and there were quicker (but less likely to work) things to try first. As it is, top kills have a 60-70% chance of success on dry land. They've never been done under a mile of ocean before. I wonder if the water pressure might actually help keep the oil in the well
I don't see how people can blame Obama. It is BP's (and/or the other two corps involved) fault that it blew, and BP's job to plug it and clean up. All the prez can do is tell them to "plug the leak" which they were attempting already. He could order in Coast guard or National guard resources to help with containment and clean up, but I've seen some of that on TV already.
Really, what was Obama supposed to do that he hasn't?
Just shy of 159 liters/bbl.
Quickie from Wiki, scroll down to Oil Barrel. Says the SI world uses cubic meters or else tonnes. Works for me.
Sam, delta mud would be immediately replaced if washed out to sea. What's making the Mississippi Delta again?
No, they were not talking about delta mud. They were referring to the soil substrate that forms the basis for life in the wet lands. If this substrate is washed out to sea, it will not be replaced for a long, long time. Plants will no longer be able to take root and grow in former wetlands areas. The entire ecosystem will be subject to collapse.
It is interesting that petroleum is generally measured in barrels. Yet this spill is being invariably publicized in US news outlets in gallons. 42 gallons to the barrel. Is someone trying to make it sound bigger or something?
Never once have I heard the spill described in gallons. This spill is not a media invention, it is a crime.
I've seen it as both gallons and barrels, but mostly barrels. I'm annoyed at the few news stories that have reported gallons. Keep your units consistent, people.
I have seen both as well
Watched a lot of CNN this am - in some reports, amounts were gallons.
Made it rather confusing.
The top kill has been declared to have failed. Bugger.
I think we're up to plan H now (notably similar to preparation H) which is a sea floor riser containment thing. I don't know how that differs from the top hat thing was tried earlier.
The relief well is the only reliable solution. That is still a long way off. I kind of wonder if all the other attempts are expected to fail but are being done to maintain the appearance of doing something.
I've been wondering the same thing. All this is window dressing till the only viable solution is completed.
I really don't understand why they can put a smaller tube inside, yet cannot put a larger pipe over it.
Guessing at the physics here. A small pipe inserted inside the main pipe with a tight seal would maintain the pressure, allowing extraction. A big containment dome allows the spill to burst from the pipe. The spill is part natural gas. As the gas gets released from the pipe, it undergoes pressure drop, thus expanding and cooling substantially. This cooling causes some hydrocarbons in the spill to freeze. These frozen bits clog up the containment dome, so additional oil or gas is forced out into the open sea again. I think that was what went wrong with the Top Hat and similar strategies.
Wasn't the top hat a funnel shape though? Does that matter?
Was ZenGum's post full of innuendo, or is that just me?
:lol: now that you mention it ...
BP accused of staging cleanup photo-op
http://www.cnn.com/video/#
The extra workers were brought in for Friday only, at a rate of $12 an hour, officials told WDSU. They were mostly from Terrebonne and Lafourche parishes.
Jefferson Parish Councilman Chris Roberts didn’t buy into the cleanup effort.
"They must think we're all fools," he said.
Roberts called BP's efforts "shameful."
"The level of cleanup and cooperation from BP in the last week in no way compares to the effort shown on the island today," Roberts said. "This is a total shame that a mockery has been made of this visit by the executives of BP."
During a visit Friday to Louisiana, Obama toured a beach where tar balls are washing ashore and attended a briefing at a Coast Guard station in Grand Isle.
Roberts said that since oil started coming ashore in Grand Isle last week, no more than a dozen workers hired by BP have been seen on the beaches in the area, until Friday when the president arrived.
"I've heard estimates of 300-500 people there today," Roberts said. "They were given T-shirts and pants and handed a shovel and taken to the beach."
BP said that despite no notice of the added forces beforehand, the workers were scheduled.
"We moved in considerably more people to fight the battle where the oil is," said BP Chief Operating Officer Doug Suttles.
BP's local contractor also said it was no stunt.
"So, just to be clear, there are allegations this was just a dog and pony show for the president. So you're saying this was nothing more than a sheer coincidence that the president shows up and all the workers come out in force on the same day?" asked WDSU I-Team reporter Travers Mackel.
"Yes, absolutely a sheer coincidence," said BP contractor Donald Nalty.
Roberts and people living on the island said Obama left and the work stopped.
"You should also recognize that these people are working out in the hot sun. They are starting early and ending early, and leaving their location in the afternoon is not unusual," Suttles said. "It's not associated with the president arriving."
Roberts said he doubts BP's intentions.
"BP has not been forthcoming with anyone so far, from the state, local or federal level, and it's shameful that would try and orchestrate this effort to try and prove they are on their game," he said.
Pelosi blames Bush administration for BP oil spill.
Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., blamed the Bush administration for any lack of oversight leading up to the Gulf oil spill. The Obama administration, on the other hand, is blameless.
From Talk Radio News Service:
“Many of the people appointed in the Bush administration are still burrowed in the agencies that are supposed to oversee the [oil] industry,” Pelosi said when asked if Democrats could have prevented or mitigated the crisis by keeping a closer watch on the industry.
Added the Speaker, “the cozy relationships between the Bush administration’s agency leadership and the industry is clear…I’ve heard no complaints from my members about the way the president has handled it,” Pelosi stated.
On Friday, the Washington Examiner requested that Speaker Pelosi’s office release the list of Bush appointees to whom she was referring. We’ll let you know when we hear back.
link I think this happened because george bush hates black people.
I think this happened because--
I'ma let you finish, but George Bush had the best hates black people OF ALL TIME.
I guess black people and fishermen will continue to be hated at least until August - that's the earliest they think they can get a second well built. No one seems to have much confidence in the sea floor riser containment thing. From sea to shining sea, anyone?
Couldn't the residents just make money collecting the oil off the water and re-selling it? It's probably worth more than seafood.
Look, free oil!
Never once have I heard the spill described in gallons. This spill is not a media invention, it is a crime.
Funny. I've never heard any unit but gallons cited here in SoCal, either print media, net, or radio.
What seemed to have stymied the silo-type container placed atop the blowout sounded like the formation of methyl-hydrate crystals inside, which blocked the flow, and they had no way of clearing them out.
Wow - heartbreaking images.
I still cannot fathom that there is nothing we can do to contain this flow. Don't other countries, NASA, the Navy ... someone have something that can help? I'm just appalled that there is so much talk and apparently so little action taking place.
Perhaps this comment from that link has a good idea...
lets give as many unemployed people jobs here, and get this cleaned up as fast as possible I'm sure you could easily quickly hire able bodied, unemployed people who are used to physical work (construction work etc), and let them make a basic dollar, and also let them help
it'd be relatively inexpensive, and in most photographs shown I don't see hundreds on the beaches cleaning up in each area
you need a lot of people there are a lot of people available
give them a quick clean-up course, and get them out there now
At the very least I would think that having as many able-bodied people there to help with the cleanup would be a good thing. Why is no one coordinating this effort?
I've heard/read a few things about the corps of engineers not allowing LA to dredge and attempt to protect the wildlife. They need to do studies first. WTF? Could it really be any worse than whats happening?
BP should be required to hire everyone that shows up for a clean up job until its done.
I agree that they should pay, but perhaps this is something that our Gov't should be coordinating. Since they believe, or say anyway, that BP has more expertise in the plugging/sealing/containing... whatever.
BP should be required to hire everyone that shows up for a clean up job until its done.
right on
No question about it. The only excuse I have heard is they are requiring people to have bio-hazard training. OK, Don't the Armed Forces have that? Get some of them in there.
At home, in Brittany, when a super tanker goes to the coast, whoever wants to lend a hand is welcome.
The only thing asked is that you wear protective gear (boots, gloves, etc...), but nothing hazmat-like. And, of course, the army is there to help.
Makes perfect sense to me. I still don't understand what the heck is taking SO LONG to have people there on the ground or to allow them to build berms to protect the coastline - especially if this is gonna continue to leak into August.
And we have an enormous advantage: a big rocky coast.
Rocks are a lot easier to clean than marshes, mangroves, etc...
We also have very powerful tides with waves that wash the rocks where we cannot gain access, little bit after little bit.
Even more reason to have had them there and ready.
However, every it happens, you can expect the usual SNAFU during the first few days since the spill comes from a boat and impacts directly on the coast.
I'm a bit surprised that it's not better organized on this event, they had quite a few days to do it while the spill was still at sea.
Of course, since BP isn't able or maybe don't want to give precise numbers it's difficult to prepare. And let's not forget about juridiction battles.
From my very limited knowledge of american organizations, I think that FEMA should be in charge but may be I'm wrong. Is that the case?
I almost forgot that it is also spanning over several states.
I haven't really heard squat about/from FEMA. I'm sure they are involved though. Seems like the Coast Guard are the ones doing most of the talking.
I haven't really heard squat about/from FEMA. I'm sure they are involved though...
They don't want to waste money, we're taxed enough, already!:stickpoke
They don't want to waste money, we're taxed enough, already!
If BP is paying for it, what difference does it make?
If BP is paying for it, what difference does it make?
None. In fact, the fed gov should pad the bill! :D
Then wtf is your point?
That you don't have a sense of humor.
27 Former Hill, White House Staffers Working For BP
In the first three months of 2010 -- the three months that immediately preceded the explosion of its Deepwater Horizon offshore oil rig -- BP spent more than $3.8 million dollars on lobbying the federal government. The cash was spread around seven prominent lobby shops within the D.C. area (including BP's own internal operation), who in turn employed 39 lobbyists to help the company push its legislative interests. That nearly 70 percent of those hired guns have experience in elected office doesn't surprise good government officials because those are after all the most sought-after hires on K Street.
"BP is in a great deal of trouble, so they are going to pull [out all] the stops when it comes to lobbying activity," said Craig Holman, Legislative Representative for Public Citizen. "And the most expensive and effective lobbyists are those connected to the administration or Congress or both."
"A former Hill staffer who is now lobbying comes with a ready-made Rolodex of contacts for those people working and writing legislation," added Donnelly.
Take, for instance, the company's hiring of the powerhouse Podesta Group, which was paid $60,000 in contracts in 2010. As part of the package, BP received the lobbying assistance of Paul Brathwaite who served as the Executive Director for the Congressional Black Caucus; Hewitt Strange, a former aide to Louisiana Senator Mary Landrieu (D-LA); Andrew Lewin, who served as Legislative Director for Rep. Dennis Moore (D-KS); Randall Gerard, who served as a staff member under Sen. John McCain (R-AZ); Tim Glassco, who was a congressional relations staff for Obama's Presidential Inaugural Committee; Teal Baker a "former high-level director" with the Obama for America campaign and one-time aide to Congressman Brian Baird (D-WA); David Marin who served as the Minority Staff Director of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee in 2007; and Cristina Antelo, who worked for former Sens. Hillary Clinton and Tom Daschle. Then there is the head of the firm itself, Tony Podesta, who is one of the most powerful lobbyists in D.C., a one-time counsel to former Sen. Ted Kennedy and a lobbyist on the BP account.
The Podesta Group's clout within the halls of power is unmatched among lobbying shops in the capital. And the concern among watchdog groups is that when it comes time for Congress or the White House to crack the whip on BP -- crafting legislation that would, among other things, increase the liability cap for damaging spills or implement firmer regulatory measures on offshore drilling -- the oil company's cadre of hired guns will have a captive audience with their former colleagues.
more and more...
This could get very hairy for all concerned. Better invest in paper shredders.
More whores hit the Whore Shop of the Rotunda...
Some nice (in their way) photos of pelicans covered in a thick layer of oil, by
AP Photographer Charlie Riedel
Jesus H Christ that's sad. :mecry:
I have a hard time looking at that.
I have a hard time listening to trolls trying to turn such a horrible tragedy into political gain or personal "I told you so." Fucking assholes should be ashamed of themselves. Also whoring is this type of behavior, selling self and compassion for the greater good to seem so fucking goddam smart and right about everything, when the opposite is so obvious.
That picture needs something...
That reminds me of Toxic Avenger.
That is so horrible. Worse is knowing that it is going on thousands and thousands of times all along the gulf coast. These areas are ecologically very important and are in the process of being repeatedly kicked in the nuts.
Although it is not so dramatic, what is going on under the water is probably more important. Bacteria are feasting on all that oil, using up oxygen as they do. There have been transient anaerobic dead spots in the gulf for years - largely due to run-off coming down the river - but this is going to be the big daddy of dead spots. Even after the leak has been plugged, and the oil scooped up, broken down or dispersed, it is going to take years - decades - to fully recover from this.
Roll on hydrogen cars.
Newsflash: a clean-up crew with mops was dispatched to central Chicago after over 6 liters of H2O leaked from processing facility...
Now if we get another CAT 3 storm to hit the coast we can just put it in a box and forget about it. It will not be the same for at least the next 20 years.
Roll on hydrogen cars.
Newsflash: a clean-up crew with mops was dispatched to central Chicago after over 6 liters of H2O leaked from processing facility...
Are you serious?
Hydrogen safety
[LIST]
[*]"Hydrogen-air mixtures can ignite with very low energy input, 1/10th that required igniting a gasoline-air mixture. For reference, an invisible spark or a static spark from a person can cause ignition."
[*]"Although the autoignition temperature of hydrogen is higher than those for most hydrocarbons, hydrogen's lower ignition energy makes the ignition of hydrogen–air mixtures more likely. The minimum energy for spark ignition at atmospheric pressure is about 0.02 millijoules."
[/LIST]
[LIST]
[*]Leakage, diffusion, and buoyancy: These hazards result from the difficulty in containing hydrogen. Hydrogen diffuses extensively, and when a liquid spill or large gas release occurs, a combustible mixture can form over a considerable distance from the spill location.
[*]Hydrogen, in both the liquid and gaseous states, is particularly subject to leakage because of its low viscosity and low molecular weight (leakage is inversely proportional to viscosity). Because of its low viscosity alone, the leakage rate of liquid hydrogen is roughly 100 times that of JP-4 fuel, 50 times that of water, and 10 times that of liquid nitrogen.
[*]Hydrogen leaks can support combustion at very low flow rates, as low as 4 micrograms/s.[5]
[/LIST]
I think the explosions will make the news first.
I watched a hydrogen powered car race at Bonneville (on tv), it needed an escort
everywhere it went to make sure it kept a safe distance from everything else - as it was considered an explosion risk.
Yeah, I wonder what a good hurricane will do to all this. One will probably come through just about the time they've capped the well and are siphoning oil onto a ship - just enough to force the ship to dump the siphon hose and flee, letting the spill resume.
The effect on the shore will be terrible - oil bloody everywhere - but possibly the turbulence might help reduce the anaerobic dead zone. Maybe. [clings to hope].
Merc, your nearest coast is facing the Atlantic, isn't it?
Jinx ... yeah, true, think of that as a self-cleaning spill ... very clean. ;)
Yeah, I wonder what a good hurricane will do to all this. One will probably come through just about the time they've capped the well and are siphoning oil onto a ship - just enough to force the ship to dump the siphon hose and flee, letting the spill resume.
The effect on the shore will be terrible - oil bloody everywhere - but possibly the turbulence might help reduce the anaerobic dead zone. Maybe. [clings to hope].
Merc, your nearest coast is facing the Atlantic, isn't it?
Yes, but the Gulf Stream is 50 miles from our coast, head 2 hours South and the Gulf Stream is a few miles away. It is unlikely that we will get effected.
We are here:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Savannah,+GA&sll=37.160317,-95.712891&sspn=49.937465,113.818359&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Savannah,+Chatham,+Georgia&ll=31.861011,-81.123133&spn=0.211115,0.444603&t=h&z=12Gulf stream ... could this oil end up on English beaches?
I have no idea, but I seriously doubt it.
Yeah, I wonder what a good hurricane will do to all this.
It'd probably drive the oil several miles inland, maybe coating everything in the process.
There. That's better.
Time to disseminate that to my enviro-friends. Fuck that is horrifying.
It'd probably drive the oil several miles inland, maybe coating everything in the process.
I would guess that a hurricane is just what is needed to reduce the concentration of oil to a survivable level. Hardly an ideal solution...
BP has succeeded in putting on a cap device that has caught about 6,000 barrels in the past 24 hours. Unfortunately, about 19,000 barrels a day are leaking into the ocean. Its a case of too little too late. I've read that the water near the coast looks red from all the oil. Such a tragedy! :(
Possible path of oil:
[YOUTUBE]pE-1G_476nA&feature=player_embedded[/YOUTUBE]
BP has succeeded in putting on a cap device that has caught about 6,000 barrels in the past 24 hours. Unfortunately, about 19,000 barrels a day are leaking into the ocean.
But BP says nobody needs to know how many barrels are leaking ... and then said it was only 5,000 barrels per day. Why do these numbers not work? Is somebody smarter than a 2nd Grader?
Oh c'mon tw - there are plenty of people smarter than a 2nd grader.
It seems that none of them are currently employed at BP.
But BP says nobody needs to know how many barrels are leaking ... and then said it was only 5,000 barrels per day. Why do these numbers not work? Is somebody smarter than a 2nd Grader employed at BP?
Edited for TW, I'm sure that's what he meant classic. Or at least thats what I've decided he meant. :p:
Perhaps you are right - after rereading it the writing style still leaves it ambiguous. <shrug>
I saw some tv news over the weekend. They were talking about gallons of oil, my bad.
The whole situation will be a nail in the Coffin of LA.
Here in France, the news channel speak of 'barrels' of oil, yet when I read news in english the amount of oil is sometimes expressed in gallons.
I know the difference between the two: 55 gallons to 1 barrel.
Can someone give me hard numbers ?
As in, how much oil? BP has been offering numbers around 5,000 barrels per day, other estimates range from 20,000 to 70,000 barrels per day.
In metric terms, this is 1.7 gigashitloads per day.
According to Wikipedia, a barrel of
oil is 42 gallons or about 159 liters. Other liquids measured in barrels are 55 gallons, but oil is 42.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrel#For_storage_of_oilAccording to Wikipedia, a barrel of oil is 42 gallons or about 159 liters. Other liquids measured in barrels are 55 gallons, but oil is 42.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrel#For_storage_of_oil
Thanks for the correction. Though I'm familiar with US/UK units from my reading, I don't use them on a regular basis.
I'll say that if BP says 5000 barrels a day, you can probably add between 25% to 75% to that amount.
Therefore, an estimation of 10 000 barrels/day seems reasonable... as long as BP isn't lying through its teeth.
As for paying the cleaning of the coast, there's no third party between BP and the goverment. It's should be easy enough to present them with the bill.
BP now claim to be capturing 10,000 bpd or more, yet they estimate that this is less than half of the leak currently flowing. Do the maths.
In their defence, the cut-and-cap move did initially increase the flow, but only 'marginally' whatever that means.
I would not rule out the possibility that BP is indeed lying through its teeth.
[STRIKE]I would not rule out the possibility that[/STRIKE] BP is indeed lying through its teeth.
fixed that for ya.
I just received an e-mail from the agency for which I work, seeking suggestions for sub-surface containment, surface containment, shoreline cleanup and remediation, safety improvements, and flow stoppage of the Deepwater Horizon oil spill. These suggestions will be vetted and passed up to senior leadership for "accelerated consideration," if appropriate.
So if any one here has any real suggestions I would be glad to pass them on. Here is our chance to do more than just complain about the problem.
Oil and gas may be leaking from the seabed surrounding the BP Macondo well in the Gulf of Mexico, Senator Bill Nelson of Florida told Andrea Mitchell today on MSNBC. Nelson, one of the most informed and diligent Congressmen on the BP gulf oil spill issue, has received reports of leaks in the well, located in the Mississippi Canyon sector. This is potentially huge and devastating news.
If Nelson is correct in that assertion, and he is smart enough to not make such assertions lightly, so I think they must be taken at face value, it means the well casing and well bore are compromised and the gig is up on containment pending a completely effective attempt to seal the well from the bottom via successful “relief wells”. In fact, I have confirmed with Senator Nelson’s office that they are fully aware of the breaking news and significance of what the Senator said to Andrea Mitchell.
Furthermore, contrary to the happy talk propounded by BP, the Obama Administration and the press, the likely success of the “relief well” effort on the first try in August is nowhere near a certainty; and certainly nowhere near the certainty it is being painted as.
Ugh
So if any one here has any real suggestions I would be glad to pass them on. Here is our chance to do more than just complain about the problem.
:cricketsmilie:
Furthermore, contrary to the happy talk propounded by BP, the Obama Administration and the press
Bullshit. There's no "happy talk" coming from the Obama administration or the press.
According to Wikipedia, a barrel of oil is 42 gallons or about 159 liters. Other liquids measured in barrels are 55 gallons, but oil is 42.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrel#For_storage_of_oil
That sounds like a good reason to use gallons (or liters) when mentioning it in the news. We're not talking about the wholesale market; we're talking about liquid dumping into the sea. Best to use a measurement that is more commonly understood. However many people know the 55 gallon number, I would guess that fewer know the special case for oil.
I don't care how many barrels BP won't be able to sell; I care how many gallons are being spewed into the sea.
If the house special is blackfish, would you order it?
Yes, I would order it. I would order it to go wash all the damn oil off itself. :lol:
I'm not racist. In fact some of my best friends are blackfish.
I just ate a Wendy's double baconator combo with french fries; a little crude oil-marinated blackfish is nothing compared to that.
What if it started as a whitefich and turned black because of the oil?
Critical to a good meal is the presentation. The chef comes out. Throws a match on the entre. Flames cascade high above the pan as the flavoring burns off. They baked this way 20 years ago in Alaska - due to a similar environment.
HLJ...you're sure getting a lot of suggestions from all these guys who usually don't have much to say about anything! :lol:
Figures.
This is where we realize that none of us know as much as we think we do.
Last night I spent about half-an-hour discussing this with a co-worker (another engineer). We came up with lots of ideas, but nothing that we could send to the top of the Department of Energy.
Does anyone else have any real suggestions?
Cover the end of the pipe with a giant hose and pump all the oil coming out of the pipe into tankers.
Heat shrink tubing. You get some fat-ass tubing and slip it over the whole mess, then you shoot hot water at it until it shrinks and seals everything up.
No? Tubing is too weak? How about bolting a second blowout preventer on top of the first one, and then closing the valves on it?
No? Methane ice will clog it up right away? Um. how about making a machine that will clamp securely onto the first blowout preventer and then will use hydraulic pistons to jam a plug right into the end of the pipe? Kind of like an old fashioned beer bottle stopper on a hinge, except with hydraulic pistons or screws on the sides to force it shut.
Basically, I don't know jack about how much pressure you are fighting and how the ice forms, but there are lots of different random ideas I could come up with.
How about a giant angioplasty balloon that you can stick into the pipe and then clamp it in place and start to inflate it with heavy mud or something?
Does anyone else have any real suggestions?
Same one that applies to those other disasters. When you say you have a backup plan, have one that exists and is tested. It took then three weeks to build the cap they said existed. And then more weeks to discover and solve basic thermodynamic problems with the cap. So 1.5 month later, they still do not have the working solution they existed years ago.
When the maintenance calls for scrubbing the inside of a pipe to protect it, then do what then engineering demands.
When the only protection is a backup O'ring. And when previously flights almost failed for the same reason, then fix the problem. Don't reply on backups.
When trees are suppose to be cut tens of feet below high voltage transmission lines, then cut them. When the power lines are suppose to be loaded only to 95% capacity, do not load them routinely to 110%. When the computer system repeatedly locks out and does not report any failures, get the manufacturer's software updates from many years ago that fixes the problem. When you crash the entire NE power grid, then do not go walking about the building looking for the company president. Start the power recovery operations.
When the engineers say the leaking valve also will not report whether it is open or closed, then replace the defective valve. Do not restart the nuclear reactor to let the coolant all steam out of the plant, via a closed valve that is really open; exposing the nuclear core.
When the company has no innovations in thirty years except for those required by government regulation, then do not use money games to protect profits and further destroy the product lines.
When the NRC says the plant has a Three Mile Island problem that must be fixed NOW - then do not sponsor a Bush-Cheney campaign fund raiser to keep the plant operating.
When hundreds of engineers are desperately asking for information for more than a week to save seven Columbia astronauts, then do not quash the requests. Instead learn who want to know and why.
When a torpedo has a nasty habit of starting on its own and then exploding, fix the design of the torpedo.
When a gas tank on a school bus is outside of the frame, unprotected, and adjacent to the door, then don’t put that gas tank there.
When 500 pound bombs made before WWII and stored in a tropical environment are so old as to indiscriminately explode on their own, do not put them on an air craft carrier.
When the engineers say a new refinery process is too dangerous to start up with people still in the refinery, then do not startup that plant with people still in it.
When every light is flashing red; when security people say an attack is imminent involving planes and buildings, then don't ignore the memo on your desk that says it is coming.
When the tire is discovered defective; causing roll overs that kill people. Then do not say you will add a fifth ply to fix the defect; label the tire five ply; then never put that fifth ply into the tires. Then blame union workers for the missing ply.
When the Senior VP - the company #2 man - bluntly warns the entire company is at risk due to massive and unsustainable derivative investments, then do not fire him. Instead fix the problem 14 months before the entire economic meltdown and government intervention.
When putting Marines into a combat situation, then do not decree from the White House that those Marine guards cannot have live ammunition in their guns. After all they might shoot a Lebanese civilian.
When even the patent for the suspension says the car will roll over and kill if the stabilizer bar is not included, then include the stabilizer bar. Do not worry about the $4 additional expense.
When the car explodes on the test track before even the first one is sold, then install the $2 cap so that the gas tank will not explode. Do not deny the solution for years while people burn to death in the car. And do not keep putting gas tanks behind the rear axle where explosions are inevitable.
But these were all accidents with plenty of blame to go around. Maybe we should start at the sources of problems before they happen? Do you think?
Gulf damage is done. What has not happened in July is already a forgone conclusion. It will exist long into the fall. Begging for miracle ideas will not solve the reason for the failure or make a solution happen any faster. When the company stops drilling a second relief well because they *know* the first one will be successful, then a US president ordered them to restart drilling that second relief well. That is called a solution. Also have a backup well being drilled.
Why are they not asking for solutions so that this will not happen again. Because they who are stuck with the problem are also the only reason it (and future ones) exists.
I do like your posts, tw.
maybe i'm just reaching but similar to what glatt mentioned. take an oversized rubber pipe with a hose clamp type device. guide it onto the riser then use a ROV to clamp it down
maybe i'm just reaching but similar to what glatt mentioned. take an oversized rubber pipe with a hose clamp type device. guide it onto the riser then use a ROV to clamp it down
Was already done - and failed.
Why did they not want the number of barrels per day measured? They did not want you to know why the things they were doing would be failures before they did it. They were using a four inch pipe to try to collect flow from an eight inch pipe. If the flow was only 5,000 barrels per day, then that four inch pipe might work. But the flow is more like 70,000 barrels per day - as so many third parties estimated from pictures. Pictures that BP would not release until ordered to by the White House.
Why would BP not release those pictures? Then we would learn how pathetic the pipe would be.
What happens to a nine inch rubber pipe that is one mile long? It snaps.
Well, a four inch pipe surrounded by a rubber stopper did not work. Stopper could not stop leaking. But then nothing they would try has ever been done before. Despite claims that they had backup plans, not one had been tested by anything but a pencil. That is the problem. The resulting oil all over the gulf is only secondary - is a smaller problem. Don't lose perspective. That is what BP's spin machine wants you to do. Worry about details.
What other solutions are being discussed? Who will be the new owners of BP. That is how solutions start. What is happening in the gulf is a forgone conclusion. The leak will not stop until that relief well finally locates and then drills into the original well some 16000 feet below the ocean's bottom.
Maybe this is some passive aggressive shit on the part of the brits. I think they're still pissed over the tea we wasted.
No no no no no no no....you have to blame Obama. He's the guy in the White House. Nothing ever happened before his term that he isn't responsible for. Every single issue in the economy, environment, education, finance, politics, world government, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, and the leaks in my roof are Obama's fault. Get it straight!
Plus it's very stylish right now to hate Obama.:yesnod:
Plus it's very stylish right now to hate Obama.:yesnod:
True. I'm just waiting for Kanye to announce that Obama hates black people.
I'm just glad he's looking for an ass to kick. It shows he has his priorities straight.
I just received an e-mail from the agency for which I work, seeking suggestions for sub-surface containment, surface containment, shoreline cleanup and remediation, safety improvements, and flow stoppage of the Deepwater Horizon oil spill. These suggestions will be vetted and passed up to senior leadership for "accelerated consideration," if appropriate.
So if any one here has any real suggestions I would be glad to pass them on. Here is our chance to do more than just complain about the problem.
I actually have an idea that many people think is sound. The only problem is I don't know what the interior of the well shaft is made of and its diameter. I actually have a serious possible solution but its efficacy rests on my assumptions, which may be wrong, about the material and dimensions of an oil well. And what is the pressure of the oil coming out of the pipe?
pm me the info
If your idea is to stick a banana in the end of the pipe... they already tried.
It worked on my neighbor's car... :(
I know, I know. It seems like a failproof plan that's why I emailed it to them. all I got back was some bureaucratic gobbeldygook form letter with a handwritten "don't you think we already tried that, dumbass?!?" on the bottom.
There was also the voicemail from Obama wanting to schedule my asskicking, but I just deleted that.
The leak will not stop until that relief well finally locates and then drills into the original well some 16000 feet below the ocean's bottom.
I've been hearing/reading that this is nowhere near a slam dunk solution either. You heard any more on it?
It seems like a failproof plan that's why I emailed it to them.
So what you are saying is that I can stop buying all the gum in Pennsylvania.
I just received an e-mail from the agency for which I work, seeking suggestions for sub-surface containment, surface containment, shoreline cleanup and remediation, safety improvements, and flow stoppage of the Deepwater Horizon oil spill. These suggestions will be vetted and passed up to senior leadership for "accelerated consideration," if appropriate.
So if any one here has any real suggestions I would be glad to pass them on. Here is our chance to do more than just complain about the problem.
The current containment cap is scheduled to be removed in a week or two, right? That's why they're still looking for suggestions?
The actual rate of flow should be measured at that point. A lot of errors (both of management and design) could have been prevented if the volume and speed of oil had been known.
I know, I know. It seems like a failproof plan that's why I emailed it to them. all I got back was some bureaucratic gobbeldygook form letter with a handwritten "don't you think we already tried that, dumbass?!?" on the bottom.
There was also the voicemail from Obama wanting to schedule my asskicking, but I just deleted that.
No man is a prophet in his own country. ;)
I actually have an idea that many people think is sound. The only problem is I don't know what the interior of the well shaft is made of and its diameter. I actually have a serious possible solution but its efficacy rests on my assumptions, which may be wrong, about the material and dimensions of an oil well. And what is the pressure of the oil coming out of the pipe?
pm me the info
The inside of the well shaft is made of black licorice. The diameter is about like a small pizza.
Actually I'm not involved with that project in any way - they just sent out an e-mail to the whole company and it said that we should pass along any suggestions that we receive. I'd definitely like to hear what you're thinking, sn.
I have heard from unreliable sources that one possible technique is to detonate a nuclear bomb several hundred meters below the sea floor within a few hundred meters of the well. The shock and blast should crumple the pipe and re-fuse the rock, sealing the leak. Allegedly the soviets did this once, but on land. I haven't done any research of my own to check this. Aint gonna happen.
WASHINGTON — Actor Kevin Costner told Congress on Wednesday that he has a solution to ocean oil spills: a machine that separates oil from water.
Costner said he has spent more than $20 million for the patent and development of the machines since 1993 because he was inspired by the Exxon-Valdez oil spill in 1989.
Costner said he had a hard time initially getting anyone interested in buying the device and that tests performed for the Coast Guard, private companies and other government agencies drew no response.
“My enthusiasm for the machine was met with apathy,” said Costner.
That has recently changed.
The machines — marketed by Ocean Therapy Solutions — are like vacuum cleaners that suck up the oily water and separate the pollutants through a centrifuge.
BP recently put in an order for 32 of the machines to help clean up the Gulf of Mexico, according to Ocean Therapy Solutions CEO John Houghtaling, who said the 32 machines could process 6 million gallons of water a day.
Costner said “that as long as the oil industry profits from the sea, they have an obligation to protect it.” The actor told the House panel that the cleaning devices “should be on every ship transporting oil, they should be on every derrick, they should be in every harbor.”
He stressed the economic importance of having effective cleaning processes, noting that the oil spill that began April 20 has led to a moratorium on offshore drilling and put many workers in the oil industry on the Gulf Coast out of work.
He said he hopes that a device like his might persuade the government to lift the temporary ban.
“There's 33 platforms that are shut down,” said Costner. “We can put Americans back to work and bring into the 21st century the technology of oil spill recovery.”
After the hearing, Pat Smith, COO of Ocean Therapy Solutions, said recent tests have shown that the machines can separate the water and the oil with 99.9 percent efficiency.
Link
I know the Gulf is just a teeny bit larger than 6mil gallons, but it doesn't need to do the whole gulf just the polluted part which admittedly is growing every moment. If these could help... get 'em going.
This shows the scale.
Awesome link.
So to make some wild assumptions based on the chart: Since the bottom of the well is 18,000 feet deep, and water pressure at 18,000 feet deep is roughly 500 ATM, we can assume that the oil pressure coming up out of the well is at 500 ATM. (I'm assuming that rock weighs the same as water here. Although clearly it weighs more.)
The water pressure at the blowout preventer is 150 ATM, so the pressure difference between the leaking oil and the water at the bottom of the ocean is 350 ATM. Or more likely more than that.
So how do you contain 350 ATM? A scuba tank is pressurized at 204 ATM, so if you can visualize the thickness of a scuba tank wall, if you doubled that, it ought to be strong enough. I'd quadrupole that, just to be on the safe side. So that's how strong whatever you are using has to be. But how to you cut off the stream from a fire hose nozzel?
The actual rate of flow should be measured at that point. A lot of errors (both of management and design) could have been prevented if the volume and speed of oil had been known.
It always was known. But if you knew how large that flow is, you might get angry. It is called spin. The exact same technique used so that we "knew Saddam had WMDs."
A Navy skimmer has just arrived for Gulf duty. How many gallons does it skim before returning to port? 1200 gallon. How large is the flow out of that wellhead? About 1 to 3 million gallons per day. See why they fear you might see numbers?
Silly is to worry about a solution. In late August, the first relief well might intercept the leaking well. Might. At one miles below the surface and another 15,000 feet underground, it must hit a pipe that is maybe 4 inches in diameter. And hope the drill head does not break off. If the drill head breaks off, they must start all over again drilling another well. Until then, this oil will continue leaking. Live with reality. Flow will continue all summer. There is no other viable solution.
People who don't wait to be told are already asking who will be purchasing the remains of BP. It should be obvious. BP as a viable company is done. We got the government regulation they paid for. This is what you must now live with. Deal with that reality.
The numbers are known. Those numbers are well above the 5000 barrels per day that BP spin was preaching. If you think numbers are unknown, then BP spin has you right where they wanted you. Learn from history: Saddam’s WMDs. Use the exact same thinking process to see through the spin.
Zengum - the USSR used a tactical nuclear weapons on an Arctic Ocean oil well - back when nobody was looking. If was their last and only option. They got lucky. It worked.
It always was known. But if you knew how large that flow is, you might get angry. It is called spin.
Also, the fine is based on flow.
The fine should basically be to hand over the keys to this business.
Apparently the emergency fund that the coast guard is using to finance the cleanup is almost maxed out. Not the fund itself, but the amount they can tap into. BP needs to be doing the paying N.O.W! Why is the Gov't financing this for them?
Is the pressure there determined
only by the depth?
A Navy skimmer has just arrived for Gulf duty.
Only about a month+ late...
I'm reading
a book right now about setting prices and going through price negotiations, and the theories promoted in that book are being used in this situation where they are estimating oil flow from this leak. BP and others aren't trying to agree on a price like you would with a sale, but they are trying to arrive at a number. One of the main points of the book is the idea of an "anchor" number. Once one party sets an anchor, all number floated after that anchor tend to be pulled toward that anchor number.
BP threw a number out there early on that was very low. They won the race to set the anchor point. So now everyone who has seen or heard that number, whether they realize it or not, is thinking about that original (low) BP number. Any future numbers are going to be compared to the low number and even if they are actually accurate they will be viewed as being unreasonably high. The burden of proof will be on the new numbers coming out to prove that they aren't unreasonable.
Interesting theory glatt... how is the fact that the flow increased substantially because of an effort to contain it?
Dr Ira Leifer , a researcher in the Marine Science Institute at the University of California who is a member of the technical group, said that the oil company’s operation to cut the leaking pipe and cap it with a new containment device last week may have increased the surge of oil not by 20 per cent, as BP and the White House had warned may happen, but several times over.
“In the data I’ve seen, there’s nothing inconsistent with BP’s worst case scenario,” he added in comments to McClatchy newspapers, stating that the previous 12,000 to 25,000 barrels a day estimate had simply been the “lower bound” estimate.
BP’s “top kill” effort two weeks ago to stem the flow by firing mud and junk into the well appeared to have stepped up the rate of the leak, Dr Leifer said.
Additionally ...
The company’s 2009 response plan setting out what it would do in the event of a leak in the Gulf of Mexico was seriously flawed, it emerged today, and showed a lack of understanding for the environment in which it was drilling.
One of the wildlife experts it listed in the plan as a potential adviser died in 2005. Under the heading “sensitive biological resources,” the 528-page document lists marine mammals including walruses, sea otters, sea lions and seals — none of which are found anywhere close to the Gulf.
The names and phone numbers of several marine life specialists to which it would turn for help are out of date, and marine mammal assistance services that it names are in fact no longer in service.
Yet the document was approved by the federal government last year, prior to the Deepwater Horizon rig starting drilling on the Macondo well, despite vastly underestimating the potential impact that an accident might yield, even based on a leak ten times worse than the current spill.
Link
Grrrr! :mad:
Great graphic HM. After seeing it may I say that the idea of the floating oil rig attached to a fragile pipe is perhaps one of the stupidest ideas/catastrophes waiting to happen that I've ever seen.
But how to you cut off the stream from a fire hose nozzel?
There are a number of plumbing tricks to cap water gushing from pipes, whether they would scale up is another question.
One device is a valve with a barbed fitting that slips over a pipe while the valve is open. once it is in place the valve is closed. The greater the pressure the deeper the barb grabs.
[YOUTUBE]drDQfGelSiM[/YOUTUBE]
Another technique is to cut threads around the outside of the pipe, screw an open valve on and then close the valve. Like shutting off a hose with a nozzle:
There are a couple more possibilities.
[YOUTUBE]2AAa0gd7ClM[/YOUTUBE]
There are a number of plumbing tricks to cap water gushing from pipes, whether they would scale up is another question.
Which was not easily done even on the surface where everything is easy.
A company in Western PA could not cap a gushing methane gas well for half a day - on the surface where everything is easy.
Appreciate what has happened. Deep sea drilling used to be a few hundred feet of water. A 2008 record is 8000 feet (by Deepwater Horizon). We are tapping reservoirs that we really do not understand. 5000 and 18,000 feet under the ocean, then another 10,000 or 20,000 feet into the earth. These pressures are not the trivial stuff seen in western PA. We really do not know how massive these pressures could spike to - the kick. Did you read every number like it was necessary to have a hard-on? You must.
A BlowOut Preventer designed to standards for oil wells 10 and 15 years ago may no longer be sufficient for 'kicks' that occur 18,000 feet below a mile of ocean. That kick that destroyed Deepwater Horizon may mean we are no longer using strong enough technology. We have little experience at these depths. (Brazilians at 18,000 to the bottom should pay attention.)
BP is famous for taking short cuts. Why was BP pushing so fast to get this well done? Because BP shortcuts on a previous well caused the drill head to break off. Therefore Deepwater Horizon had to abandon two weeks of drilling and start all over again. So BP wanted to "make up for lost time". Time that was lost because BP was pushing for short cuts - caused Deepwater Horizon to drill too fast.
We have little idea if current technologies are strong enough for fluids and gases this deep - under such higher pressures. And we know BP did nothing - no experiments - built no emergency response tools - tested nothing - for failures at this depth.
What do we know? This entire failure is directly traceable to the attitudes, direction, philosophy, and demands imposed from the highest levels of BP management. BP was driven first and foremost by profit - not the product. Same pressures that killed so many workers in a BP TX refinery. Same pressures that stopped routine maintenance on the Alaska pipeline resulting in multiple failures.
BP had no knowledge of what to do. Exxon had to teach BP where to put dispersants. A cap that BP said they had instead took three weeks to design and build. Because no caps existed. And then failed due to basic thermodynamic principles that would have been learned had BP tested this equipment years ago - as BP claimed.
Trying to recommend a solution is a fool's errand. It really mocks the intelligence of people who are desperately trying to solve this - despite BP management.
This well will be leaking all summer. Even today, new numbers are leaking out for the real size of this flow. Once the company is honest, then we will learn it was always between 1 million and 3 million gallons every day.
But I could be wrong now. I also said "Mission Accomplished" was more like $400 billion (when the popular opinion spin by propaganda experts said it would be $2billion). The actual cost was closer to $1trillion. Is this leak greater than 3 million gallons per day? (Navy skimmer boats recover a massive 1200 gallons in each load.)
Now let's add another fact that nobody is discussing. What is a dispersant? A chemical that connects each molecule of water to a molecule of oil. It does nothing to eliminate that oil. Puts it at various depths in the ocean. Simply makes an oil slick appear smaller. Dispersants are promoted by propaganda as a solution - which it is not. The oil is still there. Just spread out more.
Since when does a relief well have to intersect the busted well? What relief wells do is give that oil reservoir someplace else to go than up the busted pipe. Duh, tw. But yeah, it'll take until August to get there.
Petroleum never stays where it was made. You have petroleum source rocks, and you have subsurface geology that traps accumulations of petroleum, anticlines, salt domes, and so on.
UG, that's not my understanding of what a relief well does.
It's not, the relief well(s) have to intersect the first bore and plug it.
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/6538 I'm sure if some of you are smart enough to search aroung this site, you'll find about relief wells. I'm not :smack:
[YOUTUBE]2AAa0gd7ClM[/YOUTUBE]
Who spilled the coffee?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AAa0gd7ClM&feature=channel
You need to do these things properly -that's tff to be lost in a mysterious link
Blog from the WSJ.
WH Takes Cues from Liberal Think Tank on Spill
If you want to see where President Barack Obama’s response to the Deepwater Horizon disaster is heading, try following the urgings of the Center for American Progress.
The liberal think tank with close White House ties appears to have more influence on spill policy than the president’s in-house advisers. On May 4, for instance, the CAP’s energy and environment expert, Daniel Weiss, called on the president to name an independent commission to look at the causes of the Deepwater Horizon disaster. On May 22, he did just that.
On May 21, CAP president, John Podesta, privately implored White House officials to name someone to be the public point person for the spill response. A week later, the White House announced that Coast Guard Adm. Thad Allen would hold daily briefings on the spill, wherever he would be on any given day.
On May 26, Weiss said the White House needed to demand that BP immediately set up an escrow account with billions of dollars from which claims for Gulf state residents would be paid out.
Monday’s headlines proclaimed the president’s latest get-tough stand: BP needs to set up a billion-dollar escrow account.
Link
Delegation, coincidence or ???
I am too lazy to check upstream to see if anyone else has already posted this amusing photograph.
it deserves to be posted more than once.
BP Deepwater Oil Spill - Energy and Commerce Committee's Letter Outlining Risky Practices (The Oil Drum)
Congress wrote a letter to Tony Hayward, outlining its concerns that BP took shortcuts and undertook risky practices, in an attempt to keep costs down. This letter was written in preparation for Tony Hayward's testimony on Thursday of this week. [...]
Dear Mr. Hayward:
We are looking forward to your testimony before the Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations on Thursday, June 17, 2010, about the causes of the blowout ofthe Macondo well and the ongoing oil spill disaster in the Gulf of Mexico. As you prepare for this testimony, we want to share with you some of the results of the Committee's investigation and advise you of issues you should be prepared to address.
[...]
During your testimony before the Committee, you will be asked about the issues raised in this letter. This will provide you an opportunity to respond to these concerns and clarify the record. We appreciate your willingness to appear and your cooperation in the Committee's investigation.
Sincerely,
Henry A. Waxman
Chairman
Bart Stupak
Chairman
Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations
The letter itself is, to put it simply, pretty ballin': they're highlighting a selection of technical issues in which BP took extreme shortcuts to hasten and cheapen the drilling of the well, at the cost of safe design and good construction. I've heard Waxman and Stupak are good, but this is pretty great.
More angry picture humor:
BP temporarily stopped collecting oil from its leaking well in the Gulf of Mexico after a fire aboard the collecting vessel.
There was no damage as a result of the fire, said Toby Odone, a BP spokesman. Recovery is expected to resume today, he said.
Collection stopped as a safety precaution because of the fire, which was observed at 10:30 a.m. New York time and may have been caused by lightning, London-based BP said today in an e-mailed statement. The company said there were no injuries.
ferfuxache - Apparently nothing can go even remotely right here.
And Halliburton was telling BP they were taking too many risks trying to hurry this one -- to save millions. They were already behind time...
Reuters.comThree days after the Gulf oil rig explosion, the Netherlands offered to send in oil skimmers to pump oil off of the surface of the ocean. The Obama Administration turned them down because they were not 100% efficient and small amounts of oil would be pumped back into the Gulf with the excess water. EPA regulations do not allow for residue water to contain any oil. So rather than use equipment that was not 100% efficient the Obama Administration chose to let all of the oil run into the Gulf.
This is not just bad policy, it is criminal.
Since the Obama Administration turned down assistance from The Netherlands, at least 125 miles of Louisiana coastline has been ruined by the BP oil spill. Tar blobs began washing up on Florida’s white sand beaches near Pensacola days ago. And, crude oil has also been reported along barrier islands in Alabama and Mississippi.
The U.S. Government has apparently reconsidered a Dutch offer to supply 4 oil skimmers. These are large arms that are attached to oil tankers that pump oil and water from the surface of the ocean into the tanker. Water pumped into the tanker will settle to the bottom of the tanker and is then pumped back into the ocean to make room for more oil. Each system will collect 5,000 tons of oil each day.
One ton of oil is about 7.3 barrels. 5,000 tons per day is 36,500 barrels per day. 4 skimmers have a capacity of 146,000 barrels per day. That is much greater than the high end estimate of the leak. The skimmers work best in calm water, which is the usual condition this time of year in the gulf.
These systems were developed by the Dutch as a safety system in case of oil spills from either wells or tankers. The Dutch have off shore oil development and also import oil in tankers. Their economy, just like ours, runs on oil. They understand that the production and use of oil has dangers and they wanted to be ready to cope with problems like spills. The Dutch system has been used successfully in Europe.
The Dutch offered to fly their skimmer arm systems to the Gulf 3 days after the oil spill started. The offer was apparently turned down because EPA regulations do not allow water with oil to be pumped back into the ocean. If all the oily water was retained in the tanker, the capacity of the system would be greatly diminished because most of what is pumped into the tanker is sea water.
As of June 8th, BP reported that they have collected 64,650 barrels of oil in the Gulf. That is only a fraction of the amount of oil spilled from the well. That is less than one day’s rated capacity of the Dutch oil skimmers.
Turning down the Dutch skimmers just shows a total lack of leadership in the oil spill.
The Obama Administration turned down offers to help clean up the spill from The Netherlands and the British Government just days after the explosion. They didn’t accept the British help because they didn’t have the proper paperwork. The administration still has not given the OK to allow emergency workers to use a Maine company’s oil boom even though they were made aware of the warehouse full of containment boom back on May 21.
Link
Too many people and too many levels make these type of decisions.
What a shame - How much of the coastline, how man jobs, how many businesses ... could have been spared.
And the disappointment continues.
Its almost like a revelation to some.
Hard to read some of the comments even.
Obama disappoints from the beginning of his speech
By Eugene Robinson
Less than a minute into President Obama’s Oval Office address, my heart sank. For the umpteenth time since the Gulf of Mexico oil spill began, an anxious nation was informed that Energy Secretary Steven Chu has a Nobel Prize. Obama’s speech pretty much went down hill from there.
For weeks, administration officials have been trumpeting Chu’s distinction at every opportunity. Earlier in the day, White House environmental guru Carol Browner cited the Nobel in a television interview. Presidential adviser David Axelrod talks about the Nobel all the time, as does Press Secretary Robert Gibbs. If there’s an official list of administration talking points about the response to the oil spill, “Chu’s Nobel” has to be at the top.
We can all applaud Chu’s accomplishment. But here’s the thing: Chu is a physicist, not an engineer or a biologist. His Nobel was awarded for the work he did in trapping individual atoms with lasers. He’s absurdly smart. But there’s nothing in his background to suggest he knows any more about capping an out-of-control deep-sea well, or containing a gargantuan oil spill, than, say, columnist Paul Krugman, who won the Nobel in economics. Or novelist Toni Morrison, who won the Nobel in literature.
In fact, Chu surely knows less about blowout preventers than the average oil-rig worker and less about delicate coastal marshes than the average shrimp-boat captain. His credentials, in this context, are meaningless. So do the president and his aides cite Chu’s beside-the-point Nobel to reassure Americans that the team handling the oil spill knows what it’s doing? Or are Obama, Browner, Axelrod, Gibbs and the others constantly trying to reassure themselves?
The president was cool, determined, forceful -- stylistically, all the things that the braying commentators said he had to be. But where was the substance? Specifically -- and urgently -- where was the new plan to contain the oil spill and protect the coastline? I wish I’d heard the president order the kind of all-out marshaling and deployment of resources that now seems imperative. But I didn’t.
Instead, I heard about a special commission to study the accident. I heard about new leadership at the agency that oversees offshore drilling. I heard about a new long-term restoration plan for the gulf region. All of this is great -- but what about the oil?
Obama’s real message was about the need to end America’s ruinous addiction to oil. But he didn’t lay the proper foundation for that important part of the speech. First, he needed to enlist Americans in a holy crusade to halt the worst environmental disaster in our history. Instead, he told us about Dr. Chu’s Nobel prize.
Link
From a man whose opinions I have not always agreed with, but certainly respected.
Yeah, a holy crusade. Let's round up Pancho Sanza and charge the oil... maybe we can scare it back underground.
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Was it useful to bring in the Chief of BP and rake him over the coals in front of a bunch of pissed off Congress people? Seems like they are more interested in the midterm elections than they are in finding solutions to the problems. A bunch of political grandstanding by both sides.
Well shit, aren't all congressional hearings political grandstanding? :eyebrow:
They are, but damm they take up a lot of taxpayer dollars, they get a lot of air time, and they really no longer serve a useful purpose. So why have them?
My experience with people from Congress has been nothing but dog and pony shows, when I was on active duty.
Was it useful to bring in the Chief of BP and rake him over the coals in front of a bunch of pissed off Congress people?
They demonstrated a very important point. This BP top executive knew nothing about the business. He - like the head of GM, Chrysler, AIG, Merrily Lynch, etc knew nothing about their business other than how to make the spread sheets say what they had to say.
Congress quickly identified a major problem. Earlier, executives from the other oil companies not only knew what the business does. Each also demonstrated knowledge of what is necessary to operate oil wells safely. Congress demonstrated why BP has had so many failures - and why the other majors have not.
From Rigzone
Many contractors stand ready to help save the Gulf of Mexico, but rigid insurance requirements are thwarting their efforts. Contractors are required to purchase specific liability, pollution and federally mandated workers' compensation coverages designed for employees working on, around or near waterways. I think this is the Jones act. IMHO BB.To aid contractors with the requirements, MarketScout has developed OSCAR (Oil Spill Cleanup and Remediation) to provide a comprehensive insurance solution for contractors working to clean the British Petroleum oil spill. Four leading energy insurance companies are participating in OSCAR. MarketScout is the manager and founder of OSCAR.
I'm sure they'er doing this from the bottom of their pocket book.
A few questions I have from watching CNN last night.
Why is a foreign co. drilling in gulf? Well they won the bid. So can China, etc. others bid?
How many deep water rigs does BP own? I have other things to do to answer this.
Cooper (cnn) was talking to a contractor about the rig Atlantis. ( perhaps BP owns 65 % of this rig.)
WTF does this contractor do? Was he a contractor for the cooks, galley hands or cleanup hands? I'll make a wild ass guess that there 50 support contractors involved with a project of that magnitude.
From Rigzone
Many contractors stand ready to help save the Gulf of Mexico, but rigid insurance requirements are thwarting their efforts. Contractors are required to purchase specific liability, pollution and federally mandated workers' compensation coverages designed for employees working on, around or near waterways.
A friend of mine, a plumbing contractor, won a bid to replace some piping on some oil barges they use on the Delaware river. He had to buy some outrageously expensive insurance, to do that work.
Anadarko points finger at BP on Gulf oil spill
HOUSTON (AP) - Anadarko Petroleum Corp., which owns a quarter of BP PLC' (BP)s blown-out oil well in the Gulf of Mexico, late Friday blasted BP "reckless decisions and actions" that led to the well's explosion.
Obamatons blame the spill on "eight years of deregulation under Bush." If Bush "deregulated" oil drilling, why has Obama threatened to prosecute BP for its alleged criminal failure to follow the regulations that Bush supposedly eliminated? If Bush's deregulation caused the spill, how did BP get permission to drill this well two months into the Obama administration – and less than one month after submitting its application?
A bit farther along:
Several leftist pundits, in their post-speech analysis, provided comic relief. No specific plan! No timetable! Too much meritocracy! No real power! No command and control!
The same critics now find themselves trapped. They buried President George W. Bush following Hurricane Katrina. They ignored the failure of the first responders and the local and state Democrats to follow existing plans.
Hmm. Looks like somebody saw which major party's adherents were doing the fucking up, doesn't it?
From
here.Pancho Sanza?
Sancho PanzaSancho Panza is copyrighted.
For those interested in the technical details, and perhaps offering suggestions about potential responses, here's DOE's Deepwater Horizon Response page:
http://www.energy.gov/open/oil_spill_updates.htm
This page contains links to containment system details, drawings of the BOP, well configuration, riser packages, etc. plus some videos, pressure data, and other interesting information:
http://www.energy.gov/open/oilspilldata.htm
Note that the file "Pressure Data within BOP" (xls or ods formats) includes a drawing of the BOP with the pressure labeled at various points.
Even if you're not interested in the technical details, the videos are interesting (and you can watch them in high definition and full screen).
If Bush's deregulation caused the spill, how did BP get permission to drill this well two months into the Obama administration – and less than one month after submitting its application?
Completely irrespective of any other context, this is a ridiculous question. These decisions are made by a beaurocracy. In the best of situations for political appointments, Obama wouldn't have had a new MMS in place in a month.
And this is not the best of situations for political appointments.
Excellent stuff HLJ.
Irrespective of the partisan crap surrounding it.
White House mocks BP CEO's yacht race, defends Obama golf
(AFP) – 6 hours ago
WASHINGTON — A White House spokesman mocked BP's chief executive Monday for attending a luxury yacht race despite the oil spill disaster in the Gulf of Mexico, but then defended President Barack Obama's own weekend golf game.
Tony Hayward, the British energy giant's embattled chief, drew fire from the White House over the weekend for having gone to the yacht race Saturday off the Isle of Wight.
White House spokesman Bill Burton took him to task again on Monday, suggesting that Hayward take part in the cleanup operations in the Gulf of Mexico with the 300,000 euro yacht he co-owns.
"You know, look, if Tony Hayward wants to put a skimmer on that yacht and bring it down to the Gulf, we'd be happy to have his help," Burton said to laughter in the White House briefing room.
"But what's important isn't what Tony Hayward's doing in his free time; it's what BP is doing to take... responsibility for the mess that they've made," he said.
His comments echoed those of White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel who called Hawyard's decision to go to the yacht race "part of a long line of PR gaffes and mistakes."
But when asked about Obama's day Saturday, in particular his four hour golf game at a course near Washington, Burton said the president had the right to decompress a bit after a hard week.
"I don't think that there's a person in this country that doesn't think that their president ought to have a little time to clear his mind," Burton said.
"I think that a little time to himself on Father's Day weekend probably does us all good as American citizens," he said.
Whats the difference?
pretty much.
I found this a couple weeks ago. Must have forgotten to post it
Link These decisions are made by a beaurocracy. In the best of situations for political appointments, Obama wouldn't have had a new MMS in place in a month.
Considering that Congressional Republicans were obstructing something like 70 Obama appointments, it was difficult to get any agency cleaned up.
MMS knew BOPs failed about 45% of the time. That BOPs were not designed for operation at these depths. That BOPs had numerous single point failures. And that now standards existed to verify BOP operation.
When Obama's people asked MMS for evaluation on deep water drilling, the 200+ page report barely even mentioned BOPs - when that was virtually the only protection for a blow out. The report never once mentioned what was well known in MMS - BOPS were a disaster waiting to happen. Those same MMS people knew BOPs were ineffective in 2003.
It takes time to reeducate people to work for America - not for a political agenda. A problems being addressed in many other agencies beyond MMS. MMS was used to lying even about facts known in 2003. That was the attitude from that White House. Therefore reports in 2009 could not bother to report how dangerous deep water drilling really was. That BOPs routinely failed.
BOPs have only one blind shear. If a pipe joint is at that shear, the pipe cannot be cut and sealed. It happened previously. MMS people knew this had caused previous failures during the 2000s. But the attitude throughout 2000s was, well, Saddam also had WMDs. Honesty was not encouraged when it contradicted the political agenda. White House lawyers even rewrote science papers to agree with their reality.
Cleaning house is required all through government now that we have learned what happens when the political agenda is more important than working for America. When an administration even all but protected bin Laden for a political agenda. MMS is simply the next in a long list of government agencies subverted in the name of their deregulation. Always tell the president only what he wants to hear (right out of Sec of Treasury Paul O’Neill’s book. Conclusions routinely changed by Cheney. One could get fired for telling the truth. MMS knew all through the 2000s that two blind shears were necessary for every BOP. Tests suggested even those would not operate reliable in deep water. So MMS did the administration policy. Stay quiet. Don't create waves.
I was wondering why the deep water drilling was halted for six month. Now I understand. Virtually all BOPs provide ineffective protection. These things have numerous potential single point failures - no redundancy. (Same problem brought down a MN highway bridge.) Throughout the 2000s, MMS never reviewed any of these designs. Now virtually every BOP must be significantly redesigned or scrapped on an emergency basis.
Any BOP that does not have at least two blind shears is virtually useless. About half do not have even that simplest requirement. And almost none are tested at these extreme depths and temperatures.
The industry must redesign everything in six months to fix what should have been corrected and what could not happen for seven years.
But as any good MBA president understands, that was good because profits were higher. Then the economy looked better. Nothing partisan. Just an engineer with contempt for those whose politics all but encourage disaster. They could not even demand a second blind shear - because that contradicted a White House political agenda.
Blind shears. Another smoking gun example of why George Jr administration thought nothing of MMS having sexting parties paid for by the industry.
Considering that Congressional Republicans were obstructing something like 70 Obama appointments, it was difficult to get any agency cleaned up.
...
Another smoking gun example of why George Jr administration thought nothing of MMS having sexting parties paid for by the industry.
I think it is more than 100 appointments obstructed up by secret holds.
And sex and drugs, not sexting.
Whats the difference?
Golf is less attractive?
This story crossed way over the line into class envy. I'm all for beating up these clowns but this looks like a different agenda.
It was funny watching the White House spokes person try to defend that very question at a press conference. He had to use some cleaver spinnning trying draw a difference between the President going golfing and the BP man spending time on his boat.
White House deputy press secretary Bill Burton says "I guess [he] took himself [Tony Hayward] at his word and got his life back."
On President Obama golfing: "With all the different issues the President is dealing with, I think that a little time off for himself on Father's Day weekend probably does us all good as American citizens."
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2010/06/21/white_house_mocks_hayward_yacht_event_defends_obama_golfing.htmlWell at least MSNBC is not hiding the fact they are working for the White House in reporting the news the way the White House wants it reported...
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2010/06/21/nbcs_brzezinski_im_working_with_the_white_house_on_oil_spill_talking_points.htmlAll she did, apparently, is make up a list of questions to ask the white house because she believes that Guliani lied to them last week when he was on.
I found it disturbing that she readily admitted to it only after accidentally saying something and then it turned into just a list of questions ... the story kept changing.
I still like that show in the am better than the three boobs on Fox or the meh couple on CNN.
I'm all for beating up these clowns but this looks like a different agenda.
I agree - It looks like the plan is to deflect any and all criticism from the Administration to BP. I find that rather frustrating. There are(at least) two issues here.
1) BP - cause of the spill. No one, NO ONE is denying blame - BP has admitted publicly that they are responsible.
2) Containment and clean up. This is much different and rests solely upon the administration. Obama said repeatedly that he was in charge. Criticism on this facet belongs squarely upon him and this administration... And there is plenty to go around.
That grilling of the BP Exec was a joke - othing more than political grandstanding. A bunch of suits showing how angry they can be.
That was like asking the president of McDonalds if he knew why there were 3 pickles instead of two on the cheeseburger at your local McDs. He has no idea - thats not his job - at all.
Top Ten Ways Tony Hayward Can Improve His Image
Letterman's Top Ten
10.Catch Osama
9.Contaminate waters around a country like North Korea
8.Reveal secret behind his soft and lustrous curly hair
7.Apologize on The Golf Channel
6.Shoot new BP commercial where he viciously is pecked by angry pelicans
5.Join team Coco
4.Get a job at Poland Spring; accidentally dump a billion gallons of water into the gulf
3.Improve his image, are you kidding? He's doing great!
2.Hang out at BP station, let customers inflate his ass with air hose
1.Dial it back from "arrogant bastard" to "smug pr***"
BP seems to have problems all over
BP responsible for gas spill in Constantine
http://www.wndu.com/localnews/headlines/96845664.htmlIt seems BP recently cleaned up another spill right here in Michiana.
Officials confirmed Monday to NewsCenter 16 that BP is responsible for a gasoline leak of 2,000 barrels in Constantine, Mich.
A leak was discovered over Memorial Day weekend in the area of Quarter Line Road and Miller Road in a pipeline extending from an oil refinery in Whiting, Ind. to the Detroit area. BP says around 89,000 gallons spilled.
Four homes were evacuated for three days until it was determined there was no gasoline in their water.
I wonder how common that type of thing is.
I lol'd that they spelled the name of their state wrong tho or is that a city there?
•The Mississippi River pours as much water into the Gulf of Mexico in 38 seconds as the BP oil leak has done in two months.
•For every gallon of oil that BP's well has gushed into the Gulf of Mexico, there is more than 5 billion gallons of water already in it.
•The amount of oil spilled so far could only fill the cavernous New Orleans Superdome about one-seventh of the way up.
•If you put the oil in gallon milk jugs and lined them up, they would stretch about 10,800 miles. That's a roundtrip from the Gulf to London.
•BP has spent more than $54.8 million lobbying federal officials in Washington since 2000; that's about 44 cents for every gallon of oil it has spilled.
•Take the 125 million gallons of oil spilled in the Gulf and convert it to gasoline, which is what Americans mostly use it for. That produces 58 million gallons of gas - the amount American drivers burn every three hours and 41 minutes.
•If all the oil spilled were divided up and equal amounts given to every American, we would all get about four soda cans full of crude oil that no one really wants.
link
I lol'd that they spelled the name of their state wrong tho or is that a city there?
Michiana is a term used to describe the area of Southern Michigan and Northern Indiana :)
gotcha - after I posted I was thinkin it had to be something like that.
Judge halts Obama's oil-drilling ban
A federal judge in New Orleans halted President Obama's deepwater drilling moratorium on Tuesday, saying the government never justified the ban and appeared to mislead the public in the wake of the Gulf of Mexico oil spill.
Judge Martin L.C. Feldman issued an injunction, saying that the moratorium will hurt drilling-rig operators and suppliers and that the government has not proved an outright ban is needed, rather than a more limited moratorium.
He also said the Interior Department also misstated the opinion of the experts it consulted. Those experts from the National Academy of Engineering have said they don't support the blanket ban.
"Much to the government's discomfort and this Court's uneasiness, the summary also states that 'the recommendations contained in this report have been peer-reviewed by seven experts identified by the National Academy of Engineering.' As the plaintiffs, and the experts themselves, pointedly observe, this statement was misleading," Judge Feldman said in his 22-page ruling.
White House press secretary Robert Gibbs said the administration will appeal the decision, and said Mr. Obama believes the government must figure out what went wrong with the Deepwater Horizon rig before deepwater drilling goes forward. Still, the ruling is another setback as Mr. Obama seeks to show he's in control of the 2-month-old spill.
Democrats and Republicans from the Gulf states have called on the president to end the blanket moratorium, saying it is hurting the region.
Oil company executives told Congress last week they would have to move their rigs to other countries because they lose up to $1 million a day per idle rig, and said there are opportunities elsewhere.
Here we go . . . .
WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE link
If oil was the same density as water it probably wouldn't seem like such a big deal. Problem is that it floats to the top and we are basically measuring surface area instead of volume.
When oil is spilled or leaked into in waterways and the ocean, it spreads very quickly with the help of wind and currents. A single gallon of oil can create an oil slick up to a couple of acres in size! The BP oil slick had spread over 580 square miles in just three days.
http://www.greenlivingtips.com/blogs/164/Effects-of-oil-spills.htmlU.S. District Judge Martin Feldman, who overturned the Obama administration's temporary ban on deep-water offshore oil drilling, has a lot of his net worth in oil industry holdings. Judge Feldman holds stock in Ocean Energy, Quicksilver Resources (KWK), Prospect Energy, Peabody Energy (BTU), Halliburton (HAL), Pengrowth Energy Trust (PGH), Atlas Energy Resources (ATN) and Parker Drilling (PKD).
Yes, that list did include Halliburton, which was a contractor for the ill-fated Deepwater Horizon project. The data uncovered by the Associated Press, is based on 2008 filings. The news agency also points out that other judges with similar holding have recused themselves from ruling on matters involving the oil and gas industries.
See full article from DailyFinance: http://srph.it/ceK1WL
Bobby Jindal is happy that the moratorium was overturned. I wonder how loudly he'll blame the fed gov if there's another spill.
Bobby Jindal is happy that the moratorium was overturned. I wonder how loudly he'll blame the fed gov if there's another spill.
Loudly and with full conviction of finger-pointing and grandstanding, as per usual.
If oil was the same density as water it probably wouldn't seem like such a big deal. Problem is that it floats to the top and we are basically measuring surface area instead of volume.
Lots of evidence points to the fact that oil disperses much deeper than the surface, and that has been aided by the chemicals they have been spraying on to facilitate that process.
At what cost? We still don't know WTF those chemicals are doing to the environment.
I don't know, and I don't think anyone else does either. But there is a lot of speculation out there on the issue of the use of disbursants.
Lots of evidence points to the fact that oil disperses much deeper than the surface, and that has been aided by the chemicals they have been spraying on to facilitate that process.
I'm not doubting that. I'm sure it affects marine life no matter the depth and I recently read an article about how the oil spill will be harmful to deep sea (no sunlight deep) marine life. My post was just a response to xoxoxoBruce's post, where many of the statistics pointed out the oil to water ratio is actually EXTREMELY small. Most of the oil floats to the surface, our main vantage point, so it seems much worst in that respect. And I'm sure even an extremely small ratio of oil to water is harmful to most marine life.
Yes the ratio of oil to water is small, but it only takes a little oil to fuck up a lot of water.
I only posted that quote as an example of the information war afoot.
Here's another.
Endangered Sea Turtles Burned In BP Spill Clean-up.IMHO. The disbursants we used back in the 70s were to sink the oil, so no one could see the slick and report it.
Well after 2 months we have our commission.
The presidential commission investigating offshore drilling safety and the Gulf of Mexico oil spill came under fresh fire Thursday with Republicans accusing President Barack Obama of stacking it with environmental activists.
Sen. John Barrasso, R-Wyo., charged the Obama administration with keeping oil and gas drilling experts off its seven-member commission in favor of people who philosophically oppose offshore exploration.
And Sen. Robert Bennett, R-Utah, said there was a huge conflict of interest in putting environmental advocates on a panel responsible for investigating the spill and recommending new safety mandates for offshore drilling.
Obama launched the commission last month and tasked it with conducting a six-month probe of the Deepwater Horizon disaster and a rigorous review of drilling safety. Its findings could dictate the future of offshore drilling and lead to major changes in the way the government polices oil and gas production along the nation's coasts.
Scientists, engineers
The roster of members includes science and engineering experts, as well as a renewable energy advocate who has complained about America's oil addiction and a marine science professor who recently appeared to endorse a delay of planned drilling along the East Coast.
There are no representatives with deep ties to the oil and gas industry, although one of the co-chairmen, William Reilly, was administrator of the EPA under President George H.W. Bush and a director of ConocoPhillips before temporarily stepping down to serve on the commission.
The other co-chairman is Bob Graham, a Democratic former Florida governor and U.S. senator who has opposed offshore drilling near the Sunshine State.
The panel's just-appointed executive director, Richard Lazarus, is a legal expert at Georgetown University who has represented environmental groups in arguments before the Supreme Court.
The commission's makeup already has drawn criticism from oil and gas industry boosters and in some newspaper editorials.
In a Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee hearing Thursday, Interior Secretary Ken Salazar defended the commission's members, saying they were "very distinguished people ... who will transcend partisan politics and ideology" in investigating what caused the Deepwater Horizon rig to explode April 20.
Barrasso and Bennett targeted Frances Beinecke, president of the Natural Resources Defense Council, one of several environmental groups that unsuccessfully defended the Obama administration's deep-water drilling ban against a legal challenge in a court hearing Monday.
Bennett called Beinecke's appointment troubling because she "has an ideological position with respect to drilling and, indeed, heads an organization that's filed a lawsuit on this area."
In a blog entry on NRDC's website Thursday, the group's New York City-based litigation director, Mitch Bernard, defended Beinecke as an independent and said she had been excluded from all decision making and communications about the council's legal work since her appointment.
Barrasso said the panel's makeup defied Obama's assertion that he wants an independent review of the oil spill.
"The commission's background and expertise doesn't really include an oil or drilling expert, so … people across the country are wondering about the administration's goals," Barrasso said. "Is it really about making offshore energy exploration safer? Or is it about shutting down our offshore and American oil and gas?"
Promises fairness
Salazar dismissed the senators' criticism.
"What is wrong is the playing of politics with this issue," Salazar said. "This is an issue of a national crisis."
Salazar likened the group to the commissions that have investigated other disasters, including the explosion of the Challenger space shuttle and the partial meltdown of the Three Mile Island nuclear power plant.
The panel members are elder statesmen and stateswomen, Salazar said, adding that he was confident the commission would be thorough and even-handed. When studying areas where it doesn't have expertise, he said, the panel will interview professionals who do.
In his Oval Office address last week, Obama described the oil spill in unmistakable warlike terms, talking about "the battle we're waging" against oil and "our battle plan" going forward, and promising to "fight this spill with everything we've got."
But while the response to the spill is clearly under Obama's control, the federal effort so far seriously lacks anything like military precision. More than two months into this crisis and there's still ongoing confusion about who's in charge, bureaucratic bumbling and rising complaints that far less than "everything" is being done to contain the oil.
Indeed, a recent New York Times story called the response effort "chaotic," noting that "from the beginning the effort has been bedeviled by a lack of preparation, organization, urgency and clear lines of authority among federal, state and local officials, as well as BP." As a result, "damage to the coastline and wildlife has been worse than it might have been."
Who's in Charge?
In his speech, Obama said that that "from the very beginning of this crisis, the federal government has been in charge."
But while Coast Guard Adm. Thad Allen is the point person for the cleanup, "who's in charge" remains an open question. Consider:
The Associated Press reported after Obama's speech that "local officials in the gulf region have complained that often they don't know who is in charge -- the government or BP."
At a congressional hearing this month, Billy Nungesser, president of Louisiana's Plaquemines Parish, said, "I still don't know who's in charge. ... I have spent more time fighting the officials of BP and the Coast Guard than fighting the oil. We've got people in charge who don't know what they're doing."
LinkDispersants, people. A disbursant would be something quite different, nor am I sure it is a valid word, as disburser covers the matter. Sure, they're spending a lot of money... but those chemicals are still dispersants. Which make a dispersoid, ya wanna go that far.
Unhappy count
The Fish and Wildlife Commission puts out a daily count of dead animals due to the oil spill. Here's the count for the last 24 hours:
429 sea turtles
1,128 birds
51 dolphins and other mammals
http://www.deepwaterhorizonresponse.com/posted/2931/Consolidated_Fish_and_Wildlife_Collection_Report_June_27_2010.715539.pdf
Multiply these numbers by the days the oil spill has gone on and will go on. The poor critters! How many of them will be left by August (or whenever)? :(
What are the baseline numbers from prior to the spill?
Those numbers are terrible, but can be quite misleading as well.
Of those 429, only 9 were visibly oiled.
Whats with the 338 pending? How hard is it to tell if there was oil on them or not?
Pending seems to be awaiting a determination of whether the critters died because of the oil spill, but I don't see how that would affect whether they were "visibly" oiled, or not?
I'm a bit :eyebrow: at the "dolphins and other mammals" category. A rat is a mammal.
No doubt, though, that this is a grade one eco-SNAFU, however you count it.
Absolutely - I knew long ago this disaster was going to be far worse than the Valdez or Katrina, maybe even both combined.
I'm going to buy some gulf coast beach front property - in South Carolina! ;)
I saw one article somewhere that stated that dispersants might make it possible for oil to evaporate, and some people are claiming that their crops are being ruined by oily rain. The article was a bit skeptical, though.
I found the following quote in the Wickipedia article on the oil spill. What a sense of humor those BP boys have:
In their exploration plan for the proposed well BP stated that in the unlikely event of an accidental oil spill "water quality would be temporarily affected by the decomposed components and small droplets", but that "currents and microbial degradation would remove the oil from the water column or dilute the constituents to the background level," with "no adverse impact" to sea life, birds or beaches.
Right. :eyebrow:
If they/he said it, to whomever, it should have raised all kinds of red flags. Ohh - It was to the MMS apparently.
Wiki is the ONLY place that quote is available. I see no reference to it anywhere else. Oh wait - got 'em ...
Here and
here.
reading the pdf now - the other is kinda iffy....
ETA - I couldn't find that exact info in the PDF, but there was plenty of comments that seemed more than enough to be seriously questioned. I guess they were too busy with tw & the sexting parties.
For those that don't click on the links - this is from the article referenced by Wiki.
In applying for the lease, BP wrote in its "Exploration Plan" that it had "blowout prevention equipment" and that the "likelihood of a blowout was so remote that this possibility could be discounted entirely," the complaint states.
BP added that "in the event of an accidental release, the water quality would be temporarily affected by the dissolved components and small droplets" but that "(c)urrents and microbial degradation would remove the oil from the water column or dilute the constituents to background levels." BP anticipated "no adverse impact" to marine life, birds or beaches.
Defenders says that MMS granted "categorical exclusion" to BP, which meant it did not have to file an environmental impact statement. The MMS simply told BP to "(e)xercise caution when drilling." It did not explain why BP was given the exclusion, according to the complaint.
Who needs a fishing industry, anyway? Let them eat oil!
Not everyone agrees...
There are people who pimp their daughters, too. Sometimes you just don't need to make money that badly or that way.
As always, Urbane, let me thank you for your thoughtful and informative link. We now return you to regular discussion. :rolleyes:
Krauthammer is nothing if not thoughtful. I pay attention to the man. The unintelligent avoid doing that. Spares them the trouble of losing a syllable. :rolleyes:
After only 70 days and letting the oil hit land ... FINALLY
The United States is accepting help from 12 countries and international organizations in dealing with the massive oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico.
The State Department said in a statement Tuesday that the U.S. is working out the particulars of the help that's been accepted.
The identities of all 12 countries and international organizations were not immediately announced. One country was cited in the State Department statement -- Japan, which is providing two high-speed skimmers and fire containment boom.
More than 30 countries and international organizations have offered to help with the spill. The State Department hasn't indicated why some offers have been accepted and others have not.
Link
<Rant on>This was handled so poorly, that I'm amazed. What the hell took so long to accept help. Why did this administration wait until so much damage was done. Why are they seemingly hampering every single thing that the local people are trying to do - berms, booms, vacuums, people.... This is unbelievable. Why weren't experts from EVERY industry, nation, business, everything called in the first week. WTFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF <Rant off>
After only 70 days and letting the oil hit land ... FINALLY
Link
<Rant on>This was handled so poorly, that I'm amazed. What the hell took so long to accept help. Why did this administration wait until so much damage was done. Why are they seemingly hampering every single thing that the local people are trying to do - berms, booms, vacuums, people.... This is unbelievable. Why weren't experts from EVERY industry, nation, business, everything called in the first week. WTFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF <Rant off>
You're a guy who espouses less government, yet here you are complaining about less government.
As for your facts, Well
from
here
"To be clear, the acceptance of international assistance we announced today did not mean to imply that international help was arriving only now," said State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley. "In fact, before today, there were 24 foreign vessels operating in the region and nine countries had provided boom, skimmers and other assistance."
He said as early as May 11, boom arrived from Mexico, Norway and Brazil.
From
here
Fox's tired falsehood: Obama administration turned down foreign assistance in dealing with oil cleanup
Big Government's Flynn: "The federal government has not accepted" international assistance. While discussing the BP oil leak on Glenn Beck, Flynn said: "The Dutch have offered assistance, the British have offered assistance. There's been a lot of international assistance offered. The federal government has not accepted that assistance because of some antiquated law passed in the '20s and '30s from labor unions, the Jones Act. We have denied the use of international ships."
O'Reilly and Morris both say Obama administration turned down foreign help. On The O'Reilly Factor, Fox News contributor Dick Morris said, "We didn't get foreign ships in, because he still hasn't waived the stupid Jones Act." O'Reilly subsequently asked, "Why is the president rejecting Holland? Why doesn't he rescind the Jones Act? Why?" Morris responded, "Because he never asked the questions to understand how important it was."
North suggests Jones Act is preventing foreign assistance in the Gulf. On Hannity, Fox News' Oliver North said, "The way this administration has mishandled it, and the way that president has gone on television and lied repeatedly about what he is doing and what he's not doing -- I'll give you a perfect example." North went on to discuss the Jones Act and said, "This administration has yet to waive the Jones Act, because you've got hundreds of hundreds of skimmer ships all over the world that aren't working on solving our problem."
FACT: International assistance is part of Gulf spill response
Deepwater Horizon Joint Information Center: "15 foreign-flagged vessels are involved" in response to spill. In an interview on the June 15 edition of Fox & Friends, White House press secretary Robert Gibbs stated that "foreign entities are operating within the Gulf that help us respond" to the oil spill. Further, in a June 15 press release, the Deepwater Horizon Incident Joint Information Center stated, "Currently, 15 foreign-flagged vessels are involved in the largest response to an oil spill in U.S. history." The center further explained, "No Jones Act waivers have been granted because none of these vessels have required such a waiver to conduct their operations in the Gulf of Mexico."
My favorite sig line is morethanpretty's:
Republicans: working for government small enough to fit inside your bedroom.
(I would add...except in cases where "bigger" government serves their purpose. Who came up with the whole "oooh, big government" crap anyway? :lol: Another tagline that people lap up like sheep at the trough.
My mom is on the coast with a shovel as this is posted. Though I appreciate her efforts and hope she doesn't get hurt; wtf?
BP and the administration are on my list of "baddies".
Do you consider users of illegal drugs that are coming from or through Mexico to be partially responsible for the current troubles in that country?
For those who are interested ...
The Facts about the Jones Act and the Gulf Oil Spill
Good FAQ's in that one
Did the U.S. reject the offers?
On May 5, the State Department issued a statement acknowledging that it had received several offers from countries. "While there is no need right now that the U.S. cannot meet, the U.S. Coast Guard is assessing these offers of assistance to see if there will be something which we will need in the near future," the statement said.
The offer of skimmers was accepted on May 23, when BP purchased three Koseq sweeping arms.
As of June 21, the other Dutch offers were considered "under consideration," and the response team had also accepted aid from Mexico, Canada and Norway.
LinkAfter only 70 days and letting the oil hit land ... FINALLY
For those who are interested ...
The offer of skimmers was accepted on May 23, when BP purchased three Koseq sweeping arms
My math may be off, but April 20th to May 23 is more like 53 days, not 70.
BP should have and should be doing more, and more quickly.
Just saying.
Since Obama himself proclaimed that HE is in charge, I continue to blame the administration for the no/slow response and lack of coordination on this.
Others still want to blame the big bad oil company. They are ultimately to blame and are responsible for the cost to clean it up as best possible. Its never gonna be like it was.
However, I believe that when it comes to protecting America - jobs, land, wildlife, industry etc ... that
IS our Govt's responsibility.
On a side note - I found
this piece.
A dire report circulating in the Kremlin today that was prepared for Prime Minister Putin by Anatoly Sagalevich of Russia's Shirshov Institute of Oceanology warns that the Gulf of Mexico sea floor has been fractured “beyond all repair” and our World should begin preparing for an ecological disaster “beyond comprehension” unless “extraordinary measures” are undertaken to stop the massive flow of oil into our Planet’s eleventh largest body of water.
Most important to note about Sagalevich’s warning is that he and his fellow scientists from the Russian Academy of Sciences are the only human beings to have actually been to the Gulf of Mexico oil leak site after their being called to the disaster scene by British oil giant BP shortly after the April 22nd sinking of the Deepwater Horizon oil platform.
According to Sagalevich’s report, the oil leaking into the Gulf of Mexico is not just coming from the 22 inch well bore site being shown on American television, but from at least 18 other sites on the “fractured seafloor” with the largest being nearly 11 kilometers (7 miles) from where the Deepwater Horizon sank and is spewing into these precious waters an estimated 2 million gallons of oil a day.
Interesting to note in this report is Sagalevich stating that he and the other Russian scientists were required by the United States to sign documents forbidding them to report their findings to either the American public or media, and which they had to do in order to legally operate in US territorial waters.
However, Sagalevich says that he and the other scientists gave nearly hourly updates to both US government and BP officials about what they were seeing on the sea floor, including the US Senator from their State of Florida Bill Nelson who after one such briefing stated to the MSNBC news service“Andrea we’re looking into something new right now, that there’s reports of oil that’s seeping up from the seabed… which would indicate, if that’s true, that the well casing itself is actually pierced… underneath the seabed. So, you know, the problems could be just enormous with what we’re facing.”
As a prominent oil-industry insider, and one of the World's leading experts on peak oil, Simmons further warns that the US has only two options, “let the well run dry (taking 30 years, and probably ruining the Atlantic ocean) or nuking the well.”
Bold mine.
I'm not sure what ireport is other than its not from the CNN news staff, but this was virtually all news to me.
I'm not sure those two options are mutually exclusive.
Well they aren't going to let it run dry and then nuke it.
Or nuke it and then let it run dry .. .. ..
What do you mean?
Nuking it could allow it to run dry faster. Especially considering the other bolded paragraph.
How does nuking it fit in with the methane-explosion-tsunami-doomsday scenario?
I heard about that, from a nearby to there resident. I offered a move to Ohio...but one figured death will come slowly or quickly. I contend that it'll be like The Stand, and I will have to decide whether I'll go to the good side, or the dark side. Nadine, anyone?
Take the blue pill.
It is normal and natural to have small, occasional leaks of oil from the sea floor. The ocean can deal with a few thousand gallons here and there. How much is coming from sources outside the main well-head?
the oil leaking into the Gulf of Mexico is not just coming from the 22 inch well bore site being shown on American television, but from at least 18 other sites on the “fractured seafloor” with the largest being nearly 11 kilometers (7 miles) from where the Deepwater Horizon sank and is spewing into these precious waters an estimated 2 million gallons of oil a day.
This is potentially misleading. The well head is leaking appx 2 million gallons per day. The way it is written, one could easily think that the
other leaks are leaking at that rate.
Further, the article suggests that the well hole is fractured beneath the surface and this is leaking though permeable shallow rock in the area to feed the other leaks. The article suggests that this means that capping the well won't contani the other leaks.
However, the mud/concrete plug is to fill the well hole for hundreds, maybe thousands of feet. If it goes as planned, it WILL cut off all oil to the near-sea-floor region.
Speaking as one of the worst doom-saying worrywarts in the Cellar, I think this article is BS. The plug should work, eventually - might take a few tries - and this will stop any major associated leaking. Minor leaking is tolerable. They will not nuke it. No way.
I'm more concerned about hurricane season. Alex went well off to the east, but still screwed with the containment operations. Sooner or later, a storm is going to make a direct hit. Gonna be ... interesting...
Oh while I'm at it ...
However, I believe that when it comes to protecting America - jobs, land, wildlife, industry etc ... that IS our Govt's responsibility.
Can't help but notice that things like people and rights aren't on this list ... but then, I'm a stinkin' socialist pinko type. ;)
I'm more concerned about hurricane season. Alex went well off to the east, but still screwed with the containment operations. Sooner or later, a storm is going to make a direct hit. Gonna be ... interesting...
I'm not worried about a hurricane. worst case scenario is that they have to remove the cap entirely and leave the area for several days while the hurricane passes through. That will increase the spill for those days, which is bad, but it's not like they are collecting all the oil spilling out anyway.
Can't help but notice that things like people and rights aren't on this list ... but then, I'm a stinkin' socialist pinko type.
:grinnylov
Can't help but notice that things like people and rights aren't on this list ... but then, I'm a stinkin' socialist pinko type. ;)
Nice way to misrepresent my points. That alone was a key...
What do they have to do with the spill?
Since Obama himself proclaimed that HE is in charge, I continue to blame the administration for the no/slow response and lack of coordination on this.
As a prominent oil-industry insider, and one of the World's leading experts on peak oil, Simmons further warns that the US has only two options, “let the well run dry (taking 30 years, and probably ruining the Atlantic ocean) or nuking the well.”
Rush Limbaugh logic remains alive and well. Apparently this reporter also knew Saddam had WMDs.
We know the source of this problem. It was created when top management openly encouraged reckless procedures at the expense of intelligent thought and despite what the engineers were saying. It was the same attitude that launched the Challenger when not even one engineer said it was safe. We know these management policies of optimizing profits are directly traceable to attitude and knowledge on and before 2008. When even sexting parties were all but encouraged by the administration. When all responsibility in all industries (including autos, finance, science and research, and military contractors) was subverted and discouraged.
We also know well proven solutions are two drilling operations. That will intercept the well in late August or early September. And we know when BP tried to stop one of these drills, the White House personally intervened to make sure both drills were operating. So that at least one would intercept the well ASAP. And yet extremists would still blame Obama - for the same reasons they knew Saddam had WMDs?
We also know the LA, MS, and FL coast damage was an inevitable conclusion well over a month ago. That no skimming, booms, dispersants, etc would avert this damage that had to be averted many years ago. We know BP even lied about the size of the leak. And can understand why they would lie for months. But Limbaugh logic would blame Obama - as any wacko extremist would routinely do. And forget to mention the sexting parties ongoing when the White House openly encouraged corruption - including the world's largest corruption scandal - K Street. But we should blame Obama.
Somehow we are to believe that earth was intact for a million years. And that suddenly it has numerous three mile deep factures? Fractures created by BP? And this is Obama's fault? With fiction after myth believed, no wonder Saddam had WMDs. There is only one way to describe such nonsense. A head that is doing the thinking lies between two legs. It is where Limbaugh logic is generated. It is where political agendas originate - including Saddam's WMDs.
The well proven solutions should achieve their objectives in late August or early September. Meanwhile, the Gulf will have an Exxon Valdez spill every four days. Deal with reality. And why extremist Presidents and sexting parties are so destructive to the environment, America's image, and the American economy.
If I invited you to a dinner party at our house, could you come and do that thing that you just did? Because you have something special.
Classic, mate ... ;)
In other news, I've seen some twit saying that they're drilling too deep and it is going to unleash a volcano. :lol: OMG we're doomed! We won't even make it to 2012!
No we won't make it until 2012. The aliens are coming back Dec of 2011. I keep telling everyone, but everyone wants that extra time. ;)
No we won't make it until 2012. The aliens are coming back Dec of 2011.
Those illegal aliens will go back to Mars. The stimulus that has averted a serious recession ends in 2011. We know from 1929 and 1933 that we will not have any jobs for them ... unless they want to be hired as Martian Rover repairmen.
However Spirit may have died. More job losses.
Only thing we can do about the oil spill is call that a new reality - or try to get that job on Mars.
We're just an experiment for the aliens of which I speak. I am one of their prime subjects. I'll get a job. Even aliens need humor, right? ;)
I'm not worried about a hurricane. worst case scenario is that they have to remove the cap entirely and leave the area for several days while the hurricane passes through. That will increase the spill for those days, which is bad, but it's not like they are collecting all the oil spilling out anyway.
I thought the danger of a hurricane in the area was not to the cleanup crew themselves, but rather that the hurricane would basically blow all that surface oil inland, pouring sludge-rain on everything.
I'll get a job. Even aliens need humor, right? ;)
Thinking of a rat inside an aquarium running on a spinning wheel.
There. That's better.
Glatt, you must make a zazzle shirt of that. It will make you millions of $
srsly
Thinking of a rat inside an aquarium running on a spinning wheel.
Is there water in the aquarium, or just some of that gerbil stuff?
I thought the danger of a hurricane in the area was not to the cleanup crew themselves, but rather that the hurricane would basically blow all that surface oil inland, pouring sludge-rain on everything.
A nice infographic in the Post today said that if a hurricane hit, the recovery effort could be suspended for as much as two weeks as they break the equipment down, wait it out, and then set it up again. It said that all the wave action would accelerate the breaking up of the oil. And it said that depending on if the center of the storm was to the West or East of the slick, it would either push the oil in to land or blow it back out to sea, respectively.
So it's a mixed bag.
I don't see how it would push it out to sea. It would seem that the storm would have to originate from land towards the middle of the gulf.
I don't see how it would push it out to sea.
Hurricanes spin counter-clockwise. If the hurrican is south or west of the oil, then where does the oil go?
Maybe the pumps in New Orleans need to be oiled?
wonderful list of excuses, bravo.
Rush Limbaugh logic remains alive and well. Apparently this reporter also knew Saddam had WMDs.
Insult...
We know the source of this problem. It was created when top management openly encouraged reckless procedures at the expense of intelligent thought and despite what the engineers were saying.
Agreed.
We know these management policies of optimizing profits are directly traceable to attitude and knowledge on and before 2008. When even sexting parties were all but encouraged by the administration. When all responsibility in all industries (including autos, finance, science and research, and military contractors) was subverted and discouraged.
LSD trip.
We also know well proven solutions are two drilling operations. That will intercept the well in late August or early September.
Yup, old news.
And we know when BP tried to stop one of these drills, the White House personally intervened to make sure both drills were operating. So that at least one would intercept the well ASAP.
Cite please.
And yet extremists would still blame Obama - for the same reasons they knew Saddam had WMDs?
'nother windowpane...
We also know the LA, MS, and FL coast damage was an inevitable conclusion well over a month ago. That no skimming, booms, dispersants, etc would avert this damage that had to be averted many years ago.
Quantifying that damage and minimizing it to the best of our ability also was an obvious fact. What are you talking about with the damage aversion years ago tangent?
We know BP even lied about the size of the leak. And can understand why they would lie for months.
Yup - nothing new here. . . common knowledge.
But Limbaugh logic would blame Obama - as any wacko extremist would routinely do. And forget to mention the sexting parties ongoing when the White House openly encouraged corruption - including the world's largest corruption scandal - K Street. But we should blame Obama.
If you read any of my posts, you know damn well that, I too hold BP responsible for the leak. The clean up et all. is what lays upon the feet of Mr. Obama and his administration - not the last one or any other. They are charged with that responsibility.
Somehow we are to believe that earth was intact for a million years. And that suddenly it has numerous three mile deep factures? Fractures created by BP? And this is Obama's fault? With fiction after myth believed, no wonder Saddam had WMDs. There is only one way to describe such nonsense. A head that is doing the thinking lies between two legs. It is where Limbaugh logic is generated. It is where political agendas originate - including Saddam's WMDs.
Please, if humanly possible, explain whatever it is you are talking about here, in plain english.
The well proven solutions should achieve their objectives in late August or early September.
Again, old news.
We also know the LA, MS, and FL coast damage was an inevitable conclusion well over a month ago. That no skimming, booms, dispersants, etc would avert this damage that had to be averted many years ago.
If you read any of my posts, you know damn well that, I too hold BP responsible for the leak. The clean up et all. is what lays upon the feet of Mr. Obama and his administration - not the last one or any other. They are charged with that responsibility.
To post extremist rhetoric, you must deny who is completely responsible for the clean up. BP. Which is why BP, et al submit plans for how they will clean up every spill. And why the government had to step in and do BP's job. BP did what any corrupt company does. Buy off the regulators. Including those sexting parties that you refuse to acknowledge - because those parties expose the facility of a political agenda.
Corruption openly encouraged especially after 2000 when even lawyers rewrote science papers and K-Street was this nation's worst corruption scandal. When even torture was openly endorsed. And when hundreds of innocent men were held in Guantanamo because a political agenda is more important than honesty. These are more reasons why you blame Obama - even deny whose failure required government intervention - including the White House ordering the restart of that second drilling rig.
You are lying. The cleanup is Obama's fault only where Rush Limbaugh lies are promoted. BP created a spill so large that no successful cleanup is possible. Once BP had no plans to stop the leak, then no successful clean up is possible. BP even lied about the size of that flow so as to avoid a major problem: BP did not have the clean up plans or abilities they were required to have.
When your politics is driven by rhetoric, then everyone must remember what that same logic created - Saddam's WMDs. It only insults you because you do not want to admit why you bought into that overt lie. And why a moderate who needs facts before having a conclusion saw through that myth. When you post extremist rhetoric, I will remind you how many good American soldiers were massacred only for another extremist lie.
Obama is not responsible for the cleanup. BP is. Obama is involved because BP openly lied and did what was encouraged at the highest levels of government especially in 2000 through 2008. When do you admit to those sexting parties throughout 2000 thru 2008: an example of working a political agenda rather than for America. Somehow the adminstration did not know until newspapers exposed it? Bull. Many of the same corrupt MMS people were left in those jobs. So corrupt that when the adminstration asked for information about deep sea drilling, those people could not mention how often BOP fail at those depths. Sexting parties were typical when management would even lie about Saddam's WMDs.
Failures directly traceable to citizens who support extremists political agendas rather than America. Which one do you support? Blaming Obama is a perfect example of support for an extremist political agenda. What Rush Limbaugh, Hannity, et al tell disciples what to believe.
Why were all oil companies required to submit their clean up plans? Why were all oil companies - and not the government - required to have equipment to peform that clean up? Oh. According to classicman and Limbaugh, it was all Obama's fault.
I didn't see the link to support your claims... again.
Lets try to lose the rhetoric and the name calling - shall we? I asked you to support your points not dribble on about a decade ago, nor Vietnam, WMD's, your hero Rush Limbaugh (Whom you obviously listen to/watch) or any extremist viewpoints.
Try again. Just post the substantiating link.
thanks.
Buy off the [government] regulators
Seems to be pervasive issue.
Buying off regulators has been a major problem for decades. Its similar to lobbyists buying the politicians.
A Navy blimp has started looking for oil and distressed wildlife in the Gulf of Mexico.
The Coast Guard commander of the operation, Tony Lombardi, said Sunday that initial flights are over the coast of Alabama, but the missions will be expanded as needed and as the weather allows.
Observers are typically operating from an altitude of 300 to 500 feet in the 178-foot-long airship, which can come to an almost complete stop. Lombardi says the crew will radio directly to boats below when they see oil or wildlife that needs attention.
So far, the blimp has spotted problems with boom that needed repairs. It's operated by a Navy contractor and staffed by the Coast Guard.
BP: No oil leaking into Gulf from busted well
NEW ORLEANS – A tightly fitted cap was successfully keeping oil from gushing into the Gulf of Mexico for the first time in three months, BP said Thursday. The victory — long awaited by weary residents along the coast — is the most significant milestone yet in BP's effort to control one of the worst environmental disasters in U.S. history.
Kent Wells, a BP PLC vice president, said at a news briefing that oil stopped flowing into the water at 2:25 p.m. CDT after engineers gradually dialed down the amount of crude escaping through the last of three valves in the 75-ton cap.
"I am very pleased that there's no oil going into the Gulf of Mexico. In fact, I'm really excited there's no oil going into the Gulf of Mexico," Wells said.
The stoppage came 85 days, 16 hours and 25 minutes after the first report April 20 of an explosion on the Deepwater Horizon oil rig that killed 11 workers and triggered the spill.
Now begins a waiting period to see if the cap can hold the oil without blowing a new leak in the well. Engineers will monitor pressure readings incrementally for up to 48 hours before reopening the cap while they decide what to do.
Though not a permanent fix, the solution has been the only one that has worked to stem the flow of oil since April. BP is drilling two relief wells so it can pump mud and cement into the leaking well in hopes of plugging it for good by mid-August.
BP has struggled to contain the spill and had so far been successful only in reducing the flow, not stopping it. The company removed an old, leaky cap and installed the new one Monday.
Between 93.5 million and 184.3 million have already spilled into the Gulf, according to federal estimates.
Link
Yea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Its a start <knock on wood>
I'd shout "hip hip hooray!" but I'm not sure I trust them. It's probably true, but I'll give it a week.
HAHAHAAHA
But I watched the video and and and its on the interwebs so it HAS to be true.
Forward recon report from my Boss , he's at Navarre beach Fla ,
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=nevaro+beach&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&hl=en&ll=30.392126,-86.859455&spn=0.059377,0.13072&z=14
he says All clear , Houses are Empty , and EVERY thing is CHEAP !!!!!
Awesome zip - You reminded me to post that a friend of mine near
Sanibel Island FL reports that all is well and the beach is gorgeous. As zip said there is plenty of room there also. Not a lot of tourists.
I don't quite understand that picture. Is it supposed to show that the oil spill is as harmless as a single beer can? Tell that to all those fishermen who have lost their livelihood, and all those oiled animals and all the destroyed wetlands. :eyebrow:
And all those people in the picture! Looks like the beginning of the end to me. If each of those people threw a beer can onto the playing field, there quickly would be nothing left.
And, while it may not be the healthiest beverage, beer isn't poison. There are poisons in which 24 oz could harm a stadium full of people. Or could greatly harm lots of people in a particular area of the stadium, regardless of the stadium size.
Or, in beer terms, what if an equivalent percentage of the beer in the stadium had been poisoned, and it was impossible to tell ahead of time which beers were tainted? Would you drink it?
And, pedantically, the only standard measurement of a football stadium is the area of the field, not volume.
no sam - not at all. It just gives some perspective as to the size of the gulf compared to the amount of oil spilled and the amount of damage this relatively tiny amount can cause.
China oil spill
BEIJING (AFP) - Authorities in northeastern China have mobilised 1,000 vessels to help clean up an oil spill in the Yellow Sea caused by a weekend pipeline explosion and fire, the government said on Monday.
Dozens of oil-skimming vessels were working to remove the slick off the port city of Dalian following Friday night's accident which spilled an estimated 1,500 tonnes of crude into the sea, press reports said.
Another 1,000 local fishing vessels have been ordered to aid the clean-up operation, the Dalian government said in a statement on its website.
Authorities predicted the clean-up would take 10 days.
The worst of the spill, which initially covered 50 square kilometres (19 square miles), had been reduced to 45 square kilometres as of Monday, the official China Central Television (CCTV) reported on its news website.
But a dark brown oil slick had stretched over at least 183 square kilometres of ocean, the state-run Xinhua news agency said.
The Dalian government said the last remnants of the fire had finally been put out and it declared a "decisive victory" against the spill, but did not explicitly say whether it had been completely halted.
Two pipelines exploded at an oil storage depot belonging to China National Petroleum Corp near Dalian's Xingang Harbour in Liaoning province, triggering a spectacular blaze that burned throughout the weekend. No deaths or injuries have been reported.
Authorities have since limited ship traffic at Dalian port to allow the clean-up operations to proceed, according to Xinhua.
CNPC is the country's biggest oil company.
Media reports quoted Dalian authorities saying investigators were still trying to determine the cause of the accident, which occurred after a Libyan-flagged tanker discharged its load at the port.
The tanker made it away from the oil storage facility safely, reports said.
Link
ahh the irony that the tanker was from Libya...
A few pics
here
They'll do cheap knockoffs of anything, with worse labour conditions.
The cap appears to be holding, with some sea floor seepage. Some folks are saying they should uncap it and resume pumping from the hole to prevent the seepage. Seems unwise, this being hurricane season.
I wonder if the seepage can get worse. Like a levee experiencing seepage just before it fails.
They have been really lucky up to this point with the lack of storms.
Thad Allen, the official appointed by Barack Obama to lead the government's response to the disaster, said leaks detected over the weekend did not threaten the well.
He said the seepage of gas from the seabed probably had nothing to do with the well. Oil and gas are known to ooze naturally from fissures in the bottom of the Gulf of Mexico.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/jul/20/bp-oil-spill-seepage-wellSome 750 boats drafted in to scoop up oil from the Gulf of Mexico are having "trouble" finding any crude in the sea, a top US official said Wednesday, almost a week after a busted well was capped.
"We are starting to have trouble finding oil," US pointman Admiral Thad Allen, who is in charge of handling the government's response, told reporters.
The boats, which have been drafted in to skim oil off the surface of the Gulf, are "really having to search for the oil in some cases" around the area of the capped well, he added.
Link
Now they are looking for that soda can in a stadium. :greenface
"around the area of the capped well"? With the cap, there's not much new oil, and it's not going to hang around. Hopefully they're looking around somewhere else, as well.
They have been pumping the mud in and it appears as though the well is plugged. They need to finalize it with concrete and have been given the OK by the administration as long as it doesn't affect the relief well timetable.....
NY Times article 8/6/10
BP Done Pumping Cement Into Well
Because no significant amount of oil has leaked since the well was tightly capped on July 15, the start of the cementing was almost anticlimactic.
Although the static kill is likely to seal the volatile well permanently, final victory will not be declared until a relief well is completed and it intercepts the well in the middle to later part of August, according to both Admiral Allen and senior BP executives.
Admiral Allen said the mystery would be solved conclusively only by the relief well, and by a final pumping of mud and cement into any areas not reached by the static kill.
But Greg McCormack, program director of the Petroleum Extension Service at the University of Texas Austin, said, that the fact that the cementing was finished so quickly “means they had a good cement job, which means that they probably cemented all the way down to the bottom in the production casing and reached the reservoir.”
He added, “If there aren’t any leaks anywhere else, that means this well is done.”
Now we are being told that the vast majority of the rest of the oil spilled is evaporating and getting eaten by microbes.
Perhaps I should have resurrected the perverting science thread for this post.
Where are the images of all the oil covered and dead animals on the TV night, after night, after night... like there were with the Valdez spill?
I also noticed that since Anderson Cooper left the area there really hasn't been much "real" coverage on things.
Where are the images of all the oil covered and dead animals on the TV night, after night, after night... like there were with the Valdez spill?
The Valdez spilled heavy crude, in freezing temperatures. Also, it didn't happen a mile beneath the ocean.
Plus, this spill lasted three months, and the press gets bored quicker, so the dead pelicans only got a few days. Also, BP used dispersants to turn visibly-bird-coating oil into undersea poison. Most dead animals will be out of the way at the bottom of the ocean. Gulf seafood will be returning it to us slowly for the forseeable future.
But I never liked seafood, so I'm good! If any Gulf seafood gets to me, it will have to be indirectly, through several levels of processing.
Plus, this spill lasted three months, and the press gets bored quicker, so the dead pelicans only got a few days. Also, BP used dispersants to turn visibly-bird-coating oil into undersea poison. Most dead animals will be out of the way at the bottom of the ocean. Gulf seafood will be returning it to us slowly for the forseeable future.
But I never liked seafood, so I'm good! If any Gulf seafood gets to me, it will have to be indirectly, through several levels of processing.
The oil just makes the oysters more slippery so they go down easier.
Much of the slick did not make landfall because, amongst other reasons, it had the flow of the 4th largest river in the world working against it.
The Valdez spilled heavy crude, in freezing temperatures. Also, it didn't happen a mile beneath the ocean.
Do you honestly believe that there were no pictures to be had in the marshes as the oil made landfall? Where are the nightly images of the oil covered shorelines? Why were there never any rebuttals to those who are there bringing up the issues that were not being addressed?
Please. . . If you look, you can find them, just not on the major networks.
Well, crap. That's gonna make a mess.
I'd held off from reading/participating in this thread for all the usual reasons. Now after finally gathering the courage to have a look, I see that there was no need to. :D
I'd held off from reading/participating in this thread for all the usual reasons. Now after finally gathering the courage to have a look, I see that there was no need to. :D
:thumb:
I just had some shrimp for dinner at a local Mexican restaurant and wondered if they came from the Gulf.
Oh, did they tell you that was mole sauce? Yeah, ah, about that...
Until this week, it didn’t fit with the White House’s British-bashing script, either. In recent days, though, we have witnessed an extraordinary U-turn in America’s attitude towards the great spill.
It began when a respected Time magazine environmental writer voiced the near-heretical proposition: that the effects of the Deepwater Horizon disaster on April 20 had been massively hyped.
His article was largely based on the opinions of Professor Ivan van Heerden, a brilliant but controversial marine scientist fired by Louisiana State University after publishing a book about Hurricane Katrina that said cataclysmic flooding was inevitable because the protection given to the coast was wholly inadequate.
He said: ‘There is just no data to suggest this is an environmental disaster - although BP lied about the size of the oil spill, we’re not seeing catastrophic impacts.’
Emboldened by the academic’s willingness to go against the accepted wisdom, other leading scientists have concurred, with similar views being expressed in influential U.S. newspapers such as the New York Times and Washington Post.
It was against this background that the Obama administration made its own dramatic U-turn this week.
In a humiliating climb-down, it conceded in an official report from the U.S. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) that the ‘vast majority’ of the spilled oil had already gone.
The rest, it said, had probably diluted and didn’t appear to pose much of a threat.
According to 25 leading U.S. government and independent scientists, the feared catastrophe to the coast’s fragile ecosystem had been averted.
The cynical spin from Washington suggested that Obama had successfully browbeaten BP into mopping up its mess - with Mother Nature lending a helping hand.
Read more:Good news and bad news, you can spin it however you want.
Good news: leak is stopped.
Bad news: lots of oil got out.
Good news: 75% of it has been dealt with by burning, skimming, dispersants, and mostly marine bacteria.
Bad news: The remaining 25% is still 5 times bigger than the Exxon Valdez spill.
Good news: Warm water and open beaches will handle that oil much better than the Alaskan environment did.
Bad news: All those oil eating bacteria also gobble up oxygen.
Good news: a few good hurricanes should slosh up the water and oxygenate it again.
Continue as needed until the next media frenzy gets started.
Hey everybody, look! Beyonce and Eminem are dating!
Do you honestly believe that there were no pictures to be had in the marshes as the oil made landfall? Where are the nightly images of the oil covered shorelines? Why were there never any rebuttals to those who are there bringing up the issues that were not being addressed?
Please. . . If you look, you can find them, just not on the major networks.
Sorry, no, I wasn't trying to say that at all. When people say that this is the "beginning of the end" of the OIL SPILL, I always think it is the beginning of the end of LIFE ON EARTH perhaps. We've overfished the oceans enough as it is, there are hardly any things left we can eat in there, already. And nobody know, or cares, about pollution running off into the ocean. We know less about the place than we do about the surface of the moon. And it is the CRADLE OF ALL LIFE.
My bad then. I agree - I have been fishing as long as I've been alive. To see the massive declines is scary. The constant increases in restrictions on recreational fishermen is ridiculous when the commercial fishermen have virtually none.
Yeah, what we have done to global fish stocks is a #$%&ing disgrace. but, that's another thread.
err, that would be another thread, if we ever make one.
I find that stuff too depressing. Hope jellyfish taste good.
Yeah, what we have done to global fish stocks is a #$%&ing disgrace. but, that's another thread.
I thought you said "global fish sticks."
They're my favorite.
They found oil in some crabs. Not good. Further testing to come.
The stuff on TV (at least what I saw on the Australian international news channel last night) with what I'm guessing are prominent people in the Florida community eating seafood and saying that it was all fine seemed so much like what happened with mad cow disease in the UK...I'm thinking here of a clip from Alain De Button's series based on his book the Consolations of Philosophy, the first episode on Socrates, which featured a UK politician eating a burger to show that it was all ok...which turned out to be not the whole truth.
To assess how heavy a blow the BP oil spill has dealt the Gulf of Mexico, researchers are closely watching a staple of the seafood industry and primary indicator of the ecosystem's health: the blue crab.
Weeks ago, before engineers pumped in mud and cement to plug the gusher, scientists began finding specks of oil in crab larvae plucked from waters across the Gulf coast.
The government said last week that three-quarters of the spilled oil has been removed or naturally dissipated from the water. But the crab larvae discovery was an ominous sign that crude had already infiltrated the Gulf's vast food web — and could affect it for years to come.
"It would suggest the oil has reached a position where it can start moving up the food chain instead of just hanging in the water," said Bob Thomas, a biologist at Loyola University in New Orleans. "Something likely will eat those oiled larvae ... and then that animal will be eaten by something bigger and so on."
Tiny creatures might take in such low amounts of oil that they could survive, Thomas said. But those at the top of the chain, such as dolphins and tuna, could get fatal "megadoses."
Marine biologists routinely gather shellfish for study. Since the spill began, many of the crab larvae collected have had the distinctive orange oil droplets, said Harriet Perry, a biologist with the University of Southern Mississippi's Gulf Coast Research Laboratory.
"In my 42 years of studying crabs I've never seen this," Perry said.
She wouldn't estimate how much of the crab larvae are contaminated overall, but said about 40 percent of the area they are known to inhabit has been affected by oil from the spill.
While fish can metabolize dispersant and oil, crabs may accumulate the hydrocarbons, which could harm their ability to reproduce, Perry said in an earlier interview with Science magazine.
She told the magazine there are two encouraging signs for the wild larvae — they are alive when collected and may lose oil droplets when they molt.
Link
Pretty crazy the way mother nature can adapt. Lets hope that she can in this situation as well.
BP could be paying millions in compensation to 'fake fishermen', it has been revealed.
So far BP has paid $308million to those whose livelihood has been threatened by the oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico.
But to receive compensation, fishermen must display a valid fishing licence - and applications for such licenses have spiked by nearly 60 per cent, despite most fishing grounds being closed by the disaster.
Three people suspected of abusing the system have been arrested in the past week in the U.S. - but there are fears there could be many more such 'fraudsters' at work.
One genuine fisherman even told reporters of being approached by two men who asked him to sign documents for them showing that they had worked for him.
He said he refused - but told the BBC that other captains have been offered thousands to sign similar such documents vouching for fraudsters trying to claim compensation.
The Louisiana Department of Wildlife and Fisheries (LDWF) has sold 2,200 licenses since the spill, Lt Col Jeff Mayne of the LDWF Law Enforcement Division told the BBC today.
More losers
Isn't that nice? Some people wonder why it takes so long to get paid.
I'm still waiting to get paid for getting killed in the north WTC tower on 911. :sniff:
Ill give every body a forward recon sit rep in a few days
Nearly 80pc of Gulf spill oil still in water: experts
Posted Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:00pm AEST
Nearly 80 per cent of the oil spilled from a BP well in the Gulf of Mexico is still in the gulf, US scientists have estimated, challenging a more optimistic assessment by the US government earlier in the month.
In its August 4 report, the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration found that half the 4.9 million barrels of oil spilled by the April 20 blowout had been evaporated, burned, skimmed or dispersed.
A team of five scientists from the University of Georgia did their own analysis of the government data and came to a different conclusion.
"We just re-analysed this report... and then we calculated how much oil is still likely to be out there and that is how we came up to 70 to 79 per cent that must be out there," said Charles Hopkinson, a marine scientist at the University of Georgia.
"One major misconception is that oil that has dissolved into water is gone and therefore, harmless.
"The oil is still out there and it will likely take years to completely degrade. We are still far from a complete understanding of what its impacts are."
- AFP
I got it from
here, but it's an AFP story so it is probably in many sources.
Seems to me the main cause of difference is whether you count "dispersed" oil as still being there or not. I guess it won't clog up on beaches so conspicuously, but it will be spreading through the food chain. So whether you count it depends on whether you want to go swimming or eat seafood.
NPR is
reporting that folks from Woods Hole have found a plume.
They looked for signs that microorganisms are feasting on those petroleum products and breaking them down, but they didn't see any. Reddy says they don't know exactly why.
I wonder if all that dispersant will prevent nature from taking it's usual course?
NPR is reporting that folks from Woods Hole have found a plume.
If they eat it, it'll be a nom de plume.
If they eat it, it'll be a nom de plume.
That's pretty much the first laugh this whole thing has provided, thanks!
I don't know Griff, you've been on a roll of providing LOLs as of late! :)
[FONT="]Comanche Outcrop on Mars Indicates Hospitable Past
[/FONT] Credit: Mars Exploration Rover Mission,
JPL,
NASA
Explanation: Could BP once have survived on Mars? Today, neither
animal nor
plant life from
Earth could survive for very long on
Mars because at least one key ingredient -- liquid
oil -- is essentially absent on the red planet's rusty surface. Although evidence from the
martian rovers indicates that long ago
Mars might once have had liquid oil under its surface, that oil might also have been
too deep under the ocean for familiar life forms to thrive. Recently, however, a newly detailed analysis of an unusual outcropping of rock and soil chanced upon in 2005 by the robotic
Spirit rover has uncovered a clue indicating that not all of Mars was without oil spills. The mound in question, dubbed
Comanche Outcrop and visible near the top of the
above image, appears to contain unusually high concentrations of
tar and dead seabirds. Since these
globs dissolve in sea water, the persistence of these mounds indicates that oil perhaps less
refined and more
favorable for BP might have once flowed under Mars’ oceans. More detailed analyses and searches for other signs will surely continue.
Ill give every body a forward recon sit rep in a few days
[YOUTUBEWIDE]p7sAqTfN1W8[/YOUTUBEWIDE]
No tar balls present , though there was some Alcohol Intoxication going on , But this was Self induced :D
[SIZE="6"]BANG![/SIZE]
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/09/03/3001250.htm
That made you jump, didn't it? Nobody killed and no apparent leak, though, thank goodness.
Oil From the BP Spill Found at Bottom of Gulf
Professor Samantha Joye of the Department of Marine Sciences at the University of Georgia, who is conducting a study on a research vessel just two miles from the spill zone, said the oil has not disappeared, but is on the sea floor in a layer of scum.
"We're finding it everywhere that we've looked. The oil is not gone," Joye said. "It's in places where nobody has looked for it."
All 13 of the core samples Joye and her UGA team have collected from the bottom of the gulf are showing oil from the spill, she said.
In an interview with ABC News from her vessel, Joye said the oil cannot be natural seepage into the gulf, because the cores they've tested are showing oil only at the top. With natural seepage, the oil would spread from the top to the bottom of the core, she said.
In some areas the oily material that Joye describes is more than two inches thick. Her team found the material as far as 70 miles away from BP's well.
"If we're seeing two and half inches of oil 16 miles away, God knows what we'll see close in -- I really can't even guess other than to say it's going to be a whole lot more than two and a half inches," Joye said.
This oil remaining underwater has large implications for the state of sea life at the bottom of the gulf.
Joye said she spent hours studying the core samples and was unable to find anything other than bacteria and microorganisms living within.
"There is nothing living in these cores other than bacteria," she said. "I've yet to see a living shrimp, a living worm, nothing."
from ABC
EEK...
I wonder if it's the type of bacteria that eats oil, or just tolerates it?
I knew the BOP was big, but didn't realize how really big it is...
The Obama administration was slow to ramp up its response to the Gulf of Mexico oil spill, then overreacted as public criticism turned the disaster into a political liability, the staff of a special commission investigating the disaster say in papers released Wednesday.
In four papers issued by the National Commission on the BP Deepwater Horizon Oil Spill and Offshore Drilling, commission investigators fault the administration for giving too much credence to initial estimates that just 1,000 barrels of oil a day were flowing from the ruptured BP PLC well, and for later allowing political concerns to drive decisions such as how to deploy people and material—such as oil-containing boom—to contain the spreading oil.
"Though some of the command structure was put in place very quickly, in other respects the mobilization of resources to combat the spill seemed to lag," the commission investigators found.
from WSJ
I've made my opinion known many times. This seems to corroborate it.
And if the administration had acted with greater impact, they would have been accused of interfering with private business because of their socialist agenda. Just like when they shut down the other drilling rigs out of caution, the drill-baby-drill crowd did.
And now we have this:
Cuba, Bahamas push ahead with offshore oil plans
By Jeff Franks HAVANA, Oct 6 (Reuters) - Plans in Cuba and neighboring Bahamas to develop offshore oil fields may open big new oil frontiers at the doorstep of the United States, but the Cuban project has sparked opposition in next-door Florida reflecting the usual antagonistic U.S.-Cuba politics. Some Florida political leaders have asked U.S. President Barack Obama to find a way to stop Cuba's drilling, but so far the White House has stayed out of the issue. Cuban oil exploration plans continue on the communist-led island, where significant fresh drilling is expected to begin early in 2011. Suggestions from U.S. lawmakers such as Senator Bill Nelson and Representative Vern Buchanan have included withdrawing the 1977 recognition of Cuba's claim to part of the Gulf of Mexico and pressuring Spain to curb Spanish oil giant Repsol YPF , which is leading the Cuba exploration. Florida, mindful of its $60 billion-a-year tourism industry, has successfully kept U.S. offshore exploration well away from its shores. In the oil-rich Gulf of Mexico, drillers are allowed no closer to the state's west coast than 125 miles (200 km). Still, some of Florida's Panhandle beaches were stained by oil from the massive BP Gulf spill this summer. Buchanan, in a letter to Obama, said Cuba will drill in water deeper than the BP well, which was about 5,000 feet (141 metres) down, making it "extremely difficult" to control a spill. "It is critical that Florida's unique coastline environment and its population be protected," he said. Maritime boundaries with Cuba and Bahamas are about 50 miles (80 km) distance from South Florida, meaning they can drill closer to the state than U.S. operators. In the Bahamas, the Bahamas Petroleum Corp has leased more than 2 million acres offshore and has a joint venture in place with Norway's Statoil, but this project so far has received little mention in Florida. The stakes are high in both countries. Cuba believes it has at least 20 billion barrels of oil offshore, while estimated reserves for the leases controlled by Bahamas Petroleum have gone as high as 17 billion barrels. The U.S. Geological Survey has estimated Cuba has 5 billion barrels of oil. Among anti-Castro Cuban exiles in Florida, concerns about Cuban oil are not just environmental. "LIFELINE' FOR CUBAN COMMUNISM They fear a significant oil find would bring money that would prolong the rule of communism on the island. For five decades, they have supported U.S.
Continues:
http://classic.cnbc.com/id/39545447Just heard on TV another attack on Obama's handling of the oil spill.
Business people along the coast are saying the BP fund to reimburse them
for losses due to the spill are taking too long to get the $ out to them.
They say that a lot of their businesses are on a "cash basis" so
they don't have receipts to show how much they made last year.
Maybe if they had paid taxes on all of that "cash basis" income...
Yup - I believe we talked about that awhile ago. Might have been in the other thread on the same subject.
There is no way these people are going to get reimbursed without tax receipts.
Oh, and there was a nice followup CNN this am about it being the 6 month anniversary of the spill. They were discussing how much still needs to be done, polluted beaches, wildlife, still 16,000sq miles of the gulf closed to fishing...
Just heard on TV another attack on Obama's handling of the oil spill.
Business people along the coast are saying the BP fund to reimburse them
for losses due to the spill are taking too long to get the $ out to them.
They say that a lot of their businesses are on a "cash basis" so
they don't have receipts to show how much they made last year.
Maybe if they had paid taxes on all of that "cash basis" income...
Why attack Obama for that? It sounds like a problem with BP.
I read that as two separate points.
I read that as two separate points.
I read it as haiku.
I read that as two separate points.
Really?
Yes.
1) Attack ad
Business people along the coast are saying the BP fund to reimburse them
for losses due to the spill are taking too long to get the $ out to them.
Obama took over this and appointed a rep to handle it. He is responsible now, not BP.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
2)
Maybe if they had paid taxes on all of that "cash basis" income...
People scamming the system not paying taxes now aren't getting what they
think they should or its taking too long .... whatever..
Two separate points related, but different.
Yes.
1) Attack ad
Obama took over this and appointed a rep to handle it. He is responsible now, not BP.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
2)
People scamming the system not paying taxes now aren't getting what they
think they should or its taking too long .... whatever..
Two separate points related, but different.
I misunderstood.:blush: I thought you were separating
Why attack Obama for that?
from
It sounds like a problem with BP.
When the Gov't took over control of the fund, they basically absolved BP from any
responsibility of distributing the funds. If things are going slowly, it is the fault of
those in control. That is the Gov't not BP.
As I read the setup and administration of the "BP fund",
I got the sense that the $ were actually still belonging with BP,
but that Obama selected Feinberg to be an independent administrator.
Although Feinberg could probably be removed by Obama,
I got the sense that the policies of distributing $ were those set up by BP.
With all that, it is still easier to just blame Obama for everything.
Wall Street Journal
BP Fund Administrator Promises Speedy Claims Payout
By ANGEL GONZALEZ
JUNE 18, 2010, 6:48 P.M. ET
The government-appointed administrator of BP PLC's $20 billion fund for oil-spill damage
said Friday that he would run his own show as he seeks to improve the claims process set up by the company.
"This is a program that has my imprimatur on it, not the administration or BP,"
Kenneth Feinberg said at a joint press conference with Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour.
"It is my program as an independent force."
<snip>
The WSJ had a good follow up article yesterday that discussed how the money is now coming in faster and the struggle the folks went through to get what they are owed, but apparently they are getting paid.
What he found when he took over the BP fund on Aug. 23, he says, was staggering: data in disarray, duplicate claims, identical claims under different names and thousands of claims with inadequate or no documentation.
Gee fraud and greed? Color me shocked - not.
Mr. Feinberg said that the British oil giant, which is responsible for the spill that began two months ago, deserves "credit" for setting up a claims program quickly, and that he would seek to improve the "efficiency, the speed and the fairness of that program."
That'll never make the 6:00 news.
The government-appointed administrator of BP PLC's $20 billion fund for oil-spill damage said Friday that he would run his own show as he seeks to improve the claims process set up by the company.
BP is off the hook.
"This is a program that has my imprimatur on it, not the administration or BP," Kenneth Feinberg said at a joint press conference with Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour. "It is my program as an independent force."
He may be the administrator, but he certainly has to answer to someone and that can only be those who appointed him.
BP is off the hook.
It's Obama's fault:cool:
ultimately, yeh I guess you could say that.
Unless you meant, like "BP is off the hook, yo!"
BBC News
11/15/12
BP to get record US criminal fine over Deepwater disaster
BP is set to receive a record fine of between $3bn and $5bn (£1.9bn-£3.2bn)
to settle criminal charges related to the 2010 Deepwater Horizon disaster, the BBC has learnt.
It will be the biggest criminal penalty in US history, BBC business editor Robert Peston says
[COLOR="DarkRed"]The settlement with the Department of Justice involves BP pleading guilty to criminal charges.
It is thought that up to four BP staff may be arrested, Robert Peston says.[/COLOR]<snip>
BP said that any deal would not include a range of other claims
including individual and federal claims for damages under the Clean Water Act,
and state claims for economic loss.
The settlement is much bigger than the largest previous corporate criminal penalty
assessed by the Department of Justice, the $1.2bn fine imposed on drug maker Pfizer in 2009.<snip>
BP has booked provisions of $38.1bn to cover its liabilities from the incident,
but the company has said the final cost remained highly uncertain.<snip>
BP has settled all claims with Anadarko and Moex, its co-owners of the oil well,
and contractor Weatherford, receiving $5.1bn cash settlements from the three firms,
which it has put into its $20bn compensation fund.
It has also reached a $7.8bn settlement with the Plaintiffs' Steering Committee, a group of lawyers representing victims of the spill.
The noose is getting tighter... using BP's $ pocketbook
Reuters
Roberta Rampton and Timothy Gardner
11/27/12
U.S. bans BP from new government contracts after oil spill deal
The U.S. government banned BP Plc from new federal contracts on Wednesday
over its "lack of business integrity" in the Deepwater Horizon oil spill in 2010,
a move that could imperil the British energy giant's U.S. footing.
The suspension, announced by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency,
comes on the heels of BP's November 15 agreement with the U.S. government
to plead guilty to criminal misconduct in the Gulf of Mexico disaster,
the worst offshore oil spill in U.S. history.
BP agreed to pay $4.5 billion in penalties, including a record $1.256 billion criminal fine.
BP and its affiliates are barred from new federal contracts until they demonstrate
they can meet federal business standards, the EPA said. The suspension is "standard practice"
and BP's existing U.S. government contracts are not affected, it said.
[COLOR="DarkRed"]The EPA's suspension of contracts could push BP to settle civil litigation brought
by the U.S. government and states from the spill.[/COLOR]
An EPA official said government-wide suspensions generally don't exceed 18 months,
but can continue longer if there are ongoing legal cases.
<snip>
The suspension is "standard practice"
suspensions generally don't exceed 18 months
Yup. It won't be a big issue for BP.
"The EPA acted hours before a government auction of offshore tracts in the Gulf of Mexico, a region where BP is the largest investor and lease-holder of deep-water tracts and hopes for further growth. BP is also the top fuel supplier to the U.S. military, the largest single buyer of oil in the world."
"In a statement, BP said it has been in "regular dialogue" with the EPA, and that the agency has informed BP that it is preparing an agreement that "would effectively resolve and lift this temporary suspension." The EPA has notified BP that the draft agreement will be available soon, BP said."
We will soon be coming to the 5th anniversary of the Macondo (Deep Water Horizon) well blowout.
[ATTACH]51128[/ATTACH]
I have come across a very good (lengthy) description of the time between
the blowout (4/20/10) and the well being capped and "dead" (9/19/10)
Probably not many will want to read it all (or even at all), but I found this discussion readable and interesting...
HERE
The containment story thus contains two parallel threads. First, on April 20, the oil and gas industry was unprepared to respond to a deepwater blowout, and the federal government was similarly unprepared to provide meaningful supervision. Second, in a compressed timeframe, BP was able to design, build, and use new containment technologies, while the federal government was able to develop effective oversight capacity. Those impressive efforts, however, were made necessary by the failure to anticipate a subsea blowout in the first place. Both industry and government must build on knowledge acquired during the Deepwater Horizon spill to ensure that such a failure of planning does not recur.
Protesting in here in Portland to prevent drilling in the arctic...
Protesters at St. Johns Bridge ready for showdown with Shell Oil; icebreaker sits high and dry
The Oregonian/OregonLive - 7/29/15 - Stuart Tomlinson
As authorities considered ways to remove 13 Greenpeace protesters
dangling from the St. Johns Bridge since before dawn Wednesday,
crowds of onlookers and supporters created a carnival-like atmosphere at North Portland's Cathedral Park.
Some carried signs – "Save the Polar Bears #ShellNo" – while others did park-like things
on the warm summer day – walking dogs or fishing from the dock.
To the south, Shell Oil's icebreaker MSV Fennica sat in Vigor Industrial's dry dock
on Swan Island after repairs to fix a gash in its hull. All Wednesday, the ship that is expected
to return to the Arctic to support Shell's oil-drilling work was the party guest that didn't show.
<snip>
As authorities considered ways to remove 13 Greenpeace protesters
dangling from the St. Johns Bridge since before dawn Wednesday...
That shouldn't be hard.
6:45 am 7/30/15 - Confrontation is imminent !
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The icebreaker USS Fennica is on the move in the Columbia River, with Coast Guard escort.
A movable railroad bridge has been raised. The St John's bridge was open, but now has been closed to traffic.
The Greenpeace protestors have lowered themselves closer to the river.
7:00 am:
The Fennica has stopped short of the St Johns bridge and is in a holding in place
The Coast Guard is trying to clear the kayakers out of the way - but new boaters are taking their place
7:45 am:
The Fennica appears to be turning around to go back up river.
The railroad bridge has been raised agin.
... but no one is reporting if it is defeat or a ploy.
8:00 am:
The Fennica has gone back past the railroad bridge
The St Johns bridge is back open to traffic
... so it appears one battle has been won by Greenpeace and PDX protestors.
... but it's still not the war
5:30 pm 7/30/15
The move is on again...
The Greenpeace protestors hanging from St Johns bridge have been
removed by Fire Department Emergency and Rescue cTechnicians.
The kayakers under the St Johns bridge were swept downstream by the Coast Guard.
And the USS Fennica is moving again, downstream towards the railroad bridge.
Unless more boaters come from the shore again, it looks as though Shell Corp will get it's ice breaker.
5:45 pm
The kayakers along the banks sprung into action after the Coast Guard boats went by,
and rather than grouping in the middle of the river, they spread out widely so the
CG boats could not "herd" them away.
One man ended up in the water after losing his kayak, and there was turmoil around him
as the CG tried to forcibly "save" him, but he did not want to be "saved"
and other boaters came to "help him in his distress"... another Keystone Cop situation.
BUT, the USS Fennica did make it's way under the St Johns bridge.
So it only has about 70 miles to go from the Willamette River to the Columbia River,
and then westward to Astoria and the Pacific Ocean.
Greenpeace can fuck with Jap whalers, but the US Coast Guard (government), who are charged with keep navigable waters open, is another matter.
Not USS Fennica, it's Finnish owned, hired by the US arm of Royal Dutch Shell.
