Pedophilia Irish Style
I am amazed how nobody is commenting about widespread and condoned pedophilia by the Catholic Church in Ireland.
Lynn Abraham, the District Attorney for Philadelphia, tired of obstruction by the Church. So she subpoenaed their files. Uncovered (and later published) hundreds of Priests only in the Philadelphia diocese know by the Church - that did virtually nothing to protect children.
It was widespread in Boston, Seattle, Rhode Island, California, and who knows how many other dioceses. There are multiple dioceses in the Philadelphia area. Lynn Abraham only subpoenaed the diocese in her jurisdiction. Why are subpoenas not served to every Catholic diocese? We don't want to make waves?
Well it was going for maybe 100 years in Ireland - and they just covered it up. How widespread is pedophilia in the Church especially when church employees magically have no sexual desired - according to the church. But moreso, why so much silence here?
I agree, it's disgusting.
Why are there any Catholics left at all? No excuse for it...
I agree, it's disgusting.
Why are there any Catholics left at all? No excuse for it...
Yea! and the fucking Jews and Muslims too. Kill them all....:cool::neutral::o:p:
.., why so much silence here?
For my part, I'm trying to leave the Church behind without the bitterness and anger I often see in ex-Catholics. The Church is practically dead with the quality of new priests way down and right-wingers holding sway. The only folks who seem to have a positive mission are the nuns and they're under pressure from Rome. The Church is over, they just don't know it yet.
The German ped scandal is the one to watch, it could reach the Vatican. It is interesting how little credence the folks left in the Church give to these scandals attributing it more to a leftist atheist agenda in the press than the upside-down nature of the Churches stance on sexuality.
I don't see it as a sexuality issue any more than rape is about sexuality. IT is a power issue. The church has always been about power, the interpretations of the bible are such to ensure the power of the church. If the church really was sincere about their gospel, they would forgive in their hearts the pedophiles after defrocking them, handing them over to the authorities, making restitution to the victims, and then taking steps to be sure this thing never happens again.
In other words, The church is full of shit.
What do you mean doing nothing?
Why has the District Attorney in South Bend not subpoenaed church records from that diocese? After so many well proven revelations in Boston and by the DA for Philadelphia - every name and church published in the Philly Inquirer - why is that not sufficient for most DAs in every city to issue subpoenas? We literally have a nationwide organized crime ring. Except is can hide behind robes and religion?
And some people call the mullahs in Iran evil.
Ireland implies the sex crime ring is international in scope.
squirell nutkin may have hit the nail square on. The powers that be are complicit in minimizing prosecution. In the Philly diocese alone, some 200? clergymen were known sexual deviates according to the church’s own records. How many hundreds are lurking in South Bend? Does law enforcement know? Why not considering this problem appears to exist in every church diocese. If this was the mafia, the feds would have raided diocese cathedrals long ago (smashing kegs of wine Elliot Ness style).
And this problem can be explained (in part) by a myth that justifies celibacy.
But then who was supposed to be dealing with this problem when John Paul II was the Pope? The current Pope. He rejected an appeal from and when most all American bishops went in mass to the Vatican to beg John Paul to address this problem immediately.
Whereas I can appreciate Griff’s attitude. Still, I am amazed how silent virtually everyone has been. Did the vatican (and current Pope) order bishops to continue a coverup? It certainly looks that way.
My parents are still Catholic, and they are very sad watching their church die. It's quite depressing for them. They had never seen the bad side of the Church, and to see it withering down in size to a tiny fraction of its former self, shutting churches all across town and consolidating services into just one church where there used to be half a dozen churches is quite distressing for them. There are no young families in their church. It's just a bunch of old farts and they keep dying off.
I have many die-hard Catholic friends (nearly all my parents age) who feel the same way. It is short sighted of any organization that wants to keep its membership strong to rape the potential new members, then deny the accusations, then spend the coffers buying silence.
Just plain old poor strategy.
It is hardly an Irish problem though. There was a big hullaballo a while ago about the Jesuits shipping all their pedos off to extremely remote locations (Alaska, BC, where they were free to terrorize the the locals who were too isolated to mount a defense.) (Hey, let's send send father cuddly to Bumfuck, Nebraska!)
It's like finding out after all these years what NAMBLA is really up to, but continuing to go to meetings and pay dues because the coffee is good all your friends are there.
I cannot abide.
It is largely that very human tendency to look for supporting facts and ignore the rest. A very few false/unproven accusations of clergy abuse come forward so the faithful give a lot of weight to them dismissing the true scope of the problem. Rush, Hannity, and Beck depend on this lack of openness of mind to keep reactionaries running by feeding them enough information to keep new thoughts out of their heads. We all do it to some extent but some of us try for balance, a lot of folks can't afford that unstable a reality. The shear scale of the Irish problem should help shatter some illusions but I don't see people with a 60 + year commitment breaking off a relationship of this magnitude.
The shear scale of the Irish problem should help shatter some illusions but I don't see people with a 60 + year commitment breaking off a relationship of this magnitude.
I had thought the Catholic church was one of the Christian denominations that was remaining stronger? However that trend may be dated.
I measure people by their actions; not by their feelings. The Pope's message to be read this Sunday to the congregation calls for this action - more prayer. That is it. Just more prayer. Nothing else.
So how large is denial in Rome? Really. Is there any source that can put their views into perspective? Or are we to judge then entire church only by their overt denials and (again) inaction?
Criminally protecting pedophiles has been exposed in Australia, US, and Ireland. How many more countries because someone in Rome says, "Holiness, I think we had a problem." Or did some insider say that. If you thought the Kremlin was hard to understand. It is just hard to fathom an institution this much in denial.
I had thought the Catholic church was one of the Christian denominations that was remaining stronger? However that trend may be dated.
They were/are growing in Africa where the old school nonsense looks progressive. Around here Vatican II, which may have been the Churches last chance to be relevant, is retreating rapidly and some in the Church even blame that liberalization for the peds. The local Church is being reduced to old folks and extremists. The rift in the Church over the health care debate might show the problem more clearly. The nuns (and hospitals) who also embraced Vat II because it was empowering for women, are in support of health care reform seeing it as helpful in their real world Christian service missions. The Catholic Bishops who actually have political power in the Church are in opposition to the reforms. The same split exists in birth control and to a lesser extent abortion. The reformers are the ones who actually perform Christ's work while the opposition exist apart from the world.
They were/are growing in Africa where the old school nonsense looks progressive. Around here Vatican II, which may have been the Churches last chance to be relevant, is retreating rapidly and some in the Church even blame that liberalization for the peds. The local Church is being reduced to old folks and extremists.
Last numbers I had for the church put average age for a priest at above 60 years old. Just wondering what those numbers are today.
And yes, I have also observed that 'liberalization' blamed for the church's problems. So the church ordered its congregation to change America laws to conform to church doctrine? I cannot think of anything more against American principles.
Again, the question. Are they really that divorced from reality? Do they know what is happening? Or is this their solution?
In corporations, bankruptcy eliminates the problem - fires top management. Shame that the Catholic Church has nothing equivalent.
I think as a social process it's a good thing, in the long run, for these things to come to light, be talked about, and work their way through the legal process. When people are too afraid to talk about things like this, abuse occurs.
I also think about the perpetrators of these crimes. I wonder if these men, and it's not just priests; there are many lay orders who are involved in teaching, recognized that something was not right in themselves, and approached the church because of this. Maybe they thought that with enough prayer and with the guidance of their god they could make up for it somehow, or be cured.
I could talk about the catholic church, who I think didn't conspire so much as ignore, relying on prayer and secrecy to make the problem go away. I could talk about the victims, some of whom endured horrific abuse; and some of whom are probably milking the litigation system for money and blaming everyone else other than themselves for their problems. But things are changing now.
No one really talked about this stuff, until the 70s in the US when the first lawsuits were being brought. Americans should be proud of this really; that people had the courage to speak up, be forthright and not to tolerate the abuse of authority. Europe has been behind us in all this. But I tell you, with the rest of the world catching up now, the catholic church is going to have a tough row. It may endure, but it will take a long time--centuries perhaps--for it to overcome this stigma.
Very thoughtful Cloud. Meanwhile someone is handing
Nero his fiddle...
No one really talked about this stuff, until the 70s in the US when the first lawsuits were being brought.
Back then was another popular expression. "You cannot trust anyone over 30."
I guess that translated today into "You cannot trust anyone over 70" which may be the average age of today's priests.
it's sad, truly. I think about this a lot, since I deal with this on a daily basis. My law firm represents a diocese (not the priests/alleged perpetrators).
I was brought up Catholic, my parents and sister are still practicing Catholics and my Godfather is a priest.
None of the above condone paedophilia in any way, shape or form.
They are still Catholic because they believe what has happened is against the teaching of the Bible, against what Jesus stood for and against what the Catholic church really stands for.
They are frustrated and confused by the actions of corrupt members of the clergy, but still hold true to their own personal ideals, which they have formed through their own life experiences.
I'm not Catholic because I am an atheist. Simple.
But I come from a background where I have interacted with many, many Catholics.
The majority will be exactly like my family - distressed and disgusted by what has happened, but still believing that this is human sin, in the one holy and apostolic church, that Jesus is still the way the truth and the light and no-one can come to the Father except through him.
There are plenty of corrupt politicians - liars, homophobes who sleep with rent boys, family values men who get their secretaries pregnant, bribe takers etc etc etc. It doesn't kill the party they belong to.
I'm not condoning what has happened. I think the closeted world of the Catholic priesthood, especially the celibacy law is long outdated (it was introduced for the simple human mercenary reason of inheritance). I'm just trying to put the viewpoint of the good Catholics I know, and why they went to Mass today.
It's also worth pointing out that there are large numbers of committed, caring, faithful priests who aren't abusng their position of trust in this way.
There are no good works that mitigate raping kids.
If raping kids isn't a deal breaker for you - then what the hell is?
A 'deal breaker'? For whom? Catholics don't see this as a problem with Catholicism, they see it as a failure of management, and individual sin.
If you have faith and have never come into contact with a bad priest, then of course it's not a deal breaker.
Football players are often in court for speeding, assault, sexual misconduct. I'm sure their managers and coaches cover up an awful lot. Does that mean people stop watching football? No of course not.
I'm not defending the Catholic church here. But I think to damn all Catholics is a little disingenuous.
They are still Catholic because they believe what has happened is against the teaching of the Bible, against what Jesus stood for and against what the Catholic church really stands for. ...
I'm just trying to put the viewpoint of the good Catholics I know, and why they went to Mass today.
First, one does not go to a church to worship the institution. A religious institution forgets that when so corrupt. One goes to church to relate to their god. The church is only a consultant. An intermediary. Nothing more. Their job is to service their clients (religiously - not sexually) in a client’s one to one relationship between that man and that god. Nothing more.
A relationship to god is unchanged no matter how corrupt the consultants are.
Catholic church is nothing more than a company of consultants. They can be fired or ignored. Nothing says you must do what consultants order. Even people who are excommunicated can still enter a church. What are they going to do? Call the police? The relationship is one to one; man to god.
Second, I have heard (and not followed up on) reports that Catholic priests in the Ukraine do get married.
Third, Pope Benedict is one who literally condoned all this when, as a bishop, he routinely refused to confront the problem when it was his job to do so. Corruption is that rampant at the highest levels. He spent more time covering up crimes rather than stopping them. His actions are so similar to top GM management that only bankruptcy could cause changea. There is no President or Board of Directors to force the church to change.
Nobody should be in that church to worship the church – even though corrupt church officers do not want to learn that.
Fourth, how many Catholics believe the Pope is infallible? No. Then those consults were lying again. More honest Catholics should demand the consultants stop lying. That will not happen. Ignore the consultants even if they excommunicate the worshipper. He is only there for the relationship between man and god.
A 'deal breaker'? For whom? Catholics don't see this as a problem with Catholicism, they see it as a failure of management, and individual sin.
For whom? Are you serious? It's not a problem with catholicism, just management? Management isn;t catholic? Catholics aren't bankrolling this whole child-raping operation they call a church, and then turning a blind eye?
Well, if you're right Dana, that right there is a huge reason why this problem is so pervasive. But yeah, if the coffee is good, and you're friends are there... Yuk.
SG, this has nothing to do with politicians or football players, I don't know where you come up with this shit.
I really think this whole think could bring down the Catholic church as we know it, esp if there is continual proof of the current Pope's ignoring the facts about the abuse. We grew up Catholic and left the church long ago for many reasons. Sad state of affairs.
For whom? Are you serious? It's not a problem with catholicism, just management? Management isn;t catholic? Catholics aren't bankrolling this whole child-raping operation they call a church, and then turning a blind eye?
Well, if you're right Dana, that right there is a huge reason why this problem is so pervasive. But yeah, if the coffee is good, and you're friends are there... Yuk.
SG, this has nothing to do with politicians or football players, I don't know where you come up with this shit.
My point is that for most Catholics, this has precious little to do with cups of tea and a friend network, but that this is (as Sundae mentioned) the one true apostolic church. If you believe that. If you truly believe that the Catholic Church (Peter's See) is the direct descendant of the apostles faith, then problems and scandals are not attached to Catholicism itself. These are manmade problems.
I know catholics who are grieving over this. It doesn't stop them wanting to be catholic. It makes them want the people who currently administrate the Church, and the priests who are guilty (along with those who are complicit) to give answers and clean up their act. But that's all about people. The Church isn't about people. It's two thousand years of history, tradition and divine sanction.
None of that makes it ok in my book. But just the fact that I think there is no excuse, doesn't stop people from making them.
All religion is about "people".
Umm....excuse me? You think I think this shit is 'ok'?
I don't. Nor do most Catholics I know. The only difference here is that you seem to think that this should lead them to turn their back on their church, and I think that's an unrealistic expectation given the nature of catholicism. Ordinary catholics are far more likely (in my view) to want to repair their church than leave it.
I haven't heard hordes of catholics queing up to excuse paedophilia. There are clearly some priests who've been complicit. At the top there seems to have been an institutional silence. You seem to want ordinary catholics to define their church through this scandal. Their not doing that does not render them complicit; it is not a sanction of that behaviour: knowing about it and not acting, that is complicity. Continuing to believe that the Catholic Church is the one true church is not.
Really? This shit has been going on for a long time, when were planning on getting started?
Umm....excuse me? You think I think this shit is 'ok'?
I don't. Nor do most Catholics I know. The only difference here is that you seem to think that this should lead them to turn their back on their church, and I think that's an unrealistic expectation given the nature of catholicism. Ordinary catholics are far more likely (in my view) to want to repair their church than leave it.
I haven't heard hordes of catholics queing up to excuse paedophilia. There are clearly some priests who've been complicit. At the top there seems to have been an institutional silence. You seem to want ordinary catholics to define their church through this scandal. Their not doing that does not render them complicit; it is not a sanction of that behaviour: knowing about it and not acting, that is complicity. Continuing to believe that the Catholic Church is the one true church is not.
WTF are you talking about!?! I only made one statement:
All religion is about "people".
I excuse no one for their actions. I do not define myself as Catholic. Let the Catholics on here respond. Good day.
edit: here is a great movie if any of you missed it. Along the same lines of the abusive environment of the Catholic Church, which btw controls the majority of the schools in Ireland.
The Magdalene Sisters
http://www.amazon.com/Magdalene-Sisters-Eileen-Walsh/dp/B00018D3L4Who? The priests? The vatican? the congregations? individual catholics?
Well, hell, it's only in the last few decades we've begun to talk, as a society, about all sorts of things: paedophilia, domestic violence, rape. We all know this stuff goes on, why haven't we solved that yet?
I just think it's unrealistic to expect people to see what these priests have done, and the hierarchy's silence as defining an institution two thousand years in the making. They're inside it. They aren't going to see it like an outsider sees it.
WTF are you talking about!?! I only made one statement:
Umm...I was responding to Jinx.
You seem to want ordinary catholics to define their church through this scandal. Their not doing that does not render them complicit; it is not a sanction of that behaviour: knowing about it and not acting, that is complicity. Continuing to believe that the Catholic Church is the one true church is not.
continuing to tithe (pay money) and attend masses at a church where it has been discovered, and admitted by the Pope that homosexual pedophilia is not uncommon, and swept under the rug by leadership IS sanctioning that behavior.
It would be akin to attending KKK meetings, but not attending the actual lynchings.
Who? The priests? The vatican? the congregations? individual catholics?
Yes, the individual catholics you just said were choosing to fix their church instead of discontinuing support of it.
Pedophilia is a human behaviour. Should we all stop being human because some choose to behave in this disgusting way?
I don't know any catholics who condone pedophilia. All the ones I know are appalled and are calling for answers.
I wonder what religion all the other pedophiles are? What makes anyone here think the catholic church has some exclusive responsibility for this problem? The whole of society has to deal with this.
Putting money in the plate is not condoning pedophilia. It's contributing to your local parish in order to help those who need help. Should that aid be withdrawn by good people, causing the needy to suffer more, just because some catholics have done the wrong thing? If you answer yes you probably need to consider your own values.
If the catholic church was the only game in town, you'd have half a point.
It's not.
It's unrealistic to expect someone brought up catholic to jump horses midstream if their fundamental beliefs are those of a catholic.
To understand the theology is important. Different churches have different tenets and to some people it would seem like going from christianity to muslim or budhism or hinduism if someone asked you to stop being a catholic and become C of E for example.
There are bad people involved in all churches and for that matter all organizations. Does this issue need to be addressed by the catholic church? Absolutely. It is being addressed right now.
Should people who believe the catholic church is their one true path to heaven be expected to all of a sudden change those beliefs because someone they've never met did something wrong? Personally I don't think so, but I suppose that might make sense to some people somehow.
Catholicism isnt like protestantism; you can't just choose another denomination. To a devout catholic, it is the one true Church. Not only is it the one true church; but it is the only route to God. Unlike in protestantism, in which, for the most part, the believer has a personal relationship with God, a catholic needs priestly intercession.
If they turn their back on their church, then they effectively turn their back on God. Without a priest to minister to them, they are denied the sacrament, absolution, and the last rites. Without these things, they cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.
No matter what the individual, frail human beings involved in the church might do, the Church is still God's house and a priest is still necesary for their immortal souls.
Just clarify that point: for a devout Catholic, it really is the only show in town.
My Granddad was a catholic who left the church when he married a protestant lass. He died in terror, convinced that he was going to hell. He wasnt a bad man. He just hadn't had the sacrament for 50 years.
We all know there are no pedophiles involved in protestantism.
Just necrophiliacs.
Only the Catholic church has pedophiles? Its gotten me thinking
Why don't we hear about this type of abuse from/in other churches or religions?
We do. Other churches have been hit with similar accusations, although perhaps not so much. The problem with the CC is the celibacy rule.
Every time you have people in a position of authority over vulnerable other people, abuse happens.
I can't help equating this discussion with the "all Muslims are terrorists" opinion. NOT expressed in this thread of course.
How can people carry on being Muslim when some of their number are murderers? And specifically murderers of other Muslims, innocent bystanders, children, people at worship etc. Completely going against most of what Islam teaches.
How can Catholics stand by the Church when some in the field used their positions to fulfil perverse desires, and some in the hierarchy covered up for them? But then how could anyone stay true to the Catholic faith when priests were preaching IRA support from the pulpits back in the 70s and 80s. Sorry, you know this is my hobby horse. But is abuse worse than murder? Well, maybe. Because the victims have to live with it and the perpetrators are in a position of trust. But political murderers are back on the streets, sanctioned unofficially by the Church and officially released by the Government I live under.
There were Nazis given sanctuary by govts around the world because of the information they had on weaponry. SOME guilty people have always been sheltered by establishments to protect themselves or to gain information.
I don't think anything I'm saying is changing anyone's mind. It's just frustrating to me that someone can equate my parents to paid up members of the KKK. Nowhere in the Church's manifesto is that children should be molested. So the 'rents to pay their tithe. To me this is nothing like them signing up to a brutal, violent cult, determined to deny human status to a whole group of people.
Okay, we're glossing over the whole gay thing here.
Start on that and I'll be willing to express my extreme disapproval of the Catholic faith.
But kiddy fiddlers?
Please try not to think every Catholic is supportive.
I left the Catholic church years ago, before I'd heard of the molestation scandals.
It's just another instance in a long long long line of hypocrisy, in the name of religion. It would be laughable, if it weren't so deeply ingrained and evil.
Only the Catholic church has pedophiles?
No, the difference being that the catholic church used it's infrastructure to cover up abuse and allowed it to continue. They maintained a policy of secrecy and helped pedophiles come in contact with more victims, while other churches, like the JW's enacted policies about notifying legal authorities of crimes (not merely "sins") committed.
gotcha, Jinx. point taken.
I still wonder about the others though. I think there will be others to follow.
No matter how this is looked at the people involved should be punished.
Their belief system, IMO, has little to do with it.
Of course there are "men of the cloth" in other religions who are child molestors. Jinx' point, if I am reading correctly, is that the Catholic Church hid it instead of dealing with it (we are taught at a young age about guilt so I guess by that point a little more guilt was nothing.)
It's a bit more difficult to become a priest than it is to become Reverend Schmoe of Unity God of Church of Christ and Hallelujah Cookies: they got those monasteries and celibacies. Reverand Schmoe got ordained over the interwebz. You'd think the Catholic church would do more than take whoever they can get: another point being that in modern times men do not want to have to choose between having a wife and children and being a minister of god's word.
And I had the coolest priest at the elementary school/church I attended as a kid. He was great. As was Sister N, the principal of the school.
No, it's not condoned by all Catholics, but the policy of the church, the powers in that church, has always been to hide and deny. It's about power, it's not about god.
Catholic church - made up of people, some of whom are criminals, sinners, pedophiles, hypocrits, power-mongers.
Catholic religion - based on faith in some sort of Flying Spaghetti Monster immitator.
Two totally different concepts - I don't like either. :fsm:
We do. Other churches have been hit with similar accusations, although perhaps not so much. The problem with the CC is the celibacy rule.
I think the size of of the Church and its leaders lack of openness make it an easy target for journalists not to mention that anti-Catholicism will sell papers to both small-minded religious bigots and people with legitimate differences with Church policy.
Another problem is the RC Church lacks any real mechanism for bottom up change. They are going through "Parish Revitalization" in this diocese which is Bishop talk for closing churches and making it look like a local decision. I'd say tw's idea of churches as consultants is a fine one but completely misunderstands Catholicism.
Dana's Granddad's story gets right to the root of my problem with the Church. He could love a non-Catholic woman but his God could not. No just God could be party to that sort of death-bed fear mongering so how can the Church be a just God's representative? All this makes the huge assumption that there is a God that is somehow related to some human concept of god.
Hitchens: The Pope is not Above the Law
Almost every episode in this horror show has involved small children being seduced and molested in the confessional itself. To take the most heart-rending cases to have emerged recently, namely the torment of deaf children in the church-run schools in Wisconsin and Verona, Italy, it is impossible to miss the calculated manner in which the predators used the authority of the confessional in order to get their way. And again the identical pattern repeats itself: Compassion is to be shown only to the criminals. Ratzinger's own fellow clergy in Wisconsin wrote to him urgently—by this time he was a cardinal in Rome, supervising the global Catholic cover-up of rape and torture—beseeching him to remove the Rev. Lawrence C. Murphy, who had comprehensively wrecked the lives of as many as 200 children who could not communicate their misery except in sign language. And no response was forthcoming until Father Murphy himself appealed to Ratzinger for mercy—and was granted it.
The other clergy members who stood by and let this happen with only a strongly worded letter are complete accessories, IMO.
The (apparently vast number of) parents who took a payout instead of pressing charges ain't looking so hot, either.
Maybe this will be the first Pope to quit or jump from the pulpit.
I highly doubt it. Why would he step down? He's freaking King of the Church. Lives in a palace. Waited on hand and foot. What does he care if the heathens criticize him?
Maybe this will be the first Pope to quit or jump from the pulpit.
I'm sure he consulted god before he protected child abusers, and therefore feels completely justified.
He just does that little hand cross in the air thingy, says "domma dis, domma dat, betcha i can beatcha at dominos" or some such latin sounding thing...and all is well again.
I like his beanie. Except it should have a propellor on it.
The (apparently vast number of) parents who took a payout instead of pressing charges ain't looking so hot, either.
Exactly true. Worse.
There was a thing in the paper recently about a Hassidic Rabbi pulling similar stunts in Brooklyn. Congo pressured the kid and his rents to STFU. Not sure where it is. have to google.
Find the Pope in the Pizza.
Father Guido Sarducci: Well, I think what I'm gonna do for the prize, whoever wins -- you know, finds the most Popes -- they'll get to have a button that I designed myself. I noticed on the tour, the best selling button was this. [holds up button] It says, "I Got a Peek at the Pope" ... And I designed a button that I think even more people can relate to. [holds up another button] It says, "I saw the Pope on TV" ... This is what you win. And now, I think, we're about ready. So while you're looking at the pizza for thirty seconds, I'm gonna play a cut from Pius XII's album. ... Here is Pius XII singing "On the Sunny Side of the Street" ... And now find the Pope in the pizza. Good luck to you. All two hundred and fifty-four.
[A jazz recording of the old pop song "On the Sunny Side of the Street" plays as we dissolve to close-up of the pizza: mostly a red mass of tomato sauce, but also cheese and one rather large image of a Pope sitting behind a desk in the lower right hand corner. The other Popes are invisible to the naked eye. A clock ticks off thirty seconds in the upper left hand corner as Father Sarducci's voice chimes in with occasional helpful hints.]
Some are easy to find, some are hard. ... Here's a little clue for you. Most of the Popes have red faces. ... Here's another clue. One of them is in the right side of the screen. ... Behind the desk.
There was a thing in the paper recently about a Hassidic Rabbi pulling similar stunts in Brooklyn. Congo pressured the kid and his rents to STFU. Not sure where it is. have to google.
What's a Congo? An African country pressured them?
like a convo=conversation
Congregation
Congo pressured the kid and his rents to STFU.
What the crap? Why????
What the crap? Why????
Well, I can't really say for sure about the Jewish congregation, but for the Christians, it goes something like this: one of the very basic rules is that you must not do anything that would cause another to stumble (commit a sin) and/or weaken their faith in God, even if it's not a problem for you. Like, you don't drink in front of the alcoholic, even though you yourself are not an alcoholic. So if you're doing it right, the result is that people view themselves as role models and hold themselves to a higher standard.
If you're doing it wrong, then when a scandal arises, there is a desire among some to keep it hush-hush and within the congregation, because an outsider might take the scandal as evidence that this whole God business must be crap, because look at the terrible things his followers do--as, indeed, people tend to do. Of course scandals inevitably come out anyway, and now you've got the added tarnish of hypocrisy, when what they really should have done in the beginning is hold up the sinner as an example of a
sinner, something the congregation, being Godly people, clearly won't tolerate.
Anyway, that's another reason the parents take the hush money, aside of course from the delicious
money aspect of it.
...an example of a sinner, something the congregation, being Godly people, clearly won't tolerate.
....
But Jesus welcomed sinners, and encouraged them to follow him.
But Jesus welcomed sinners, and encouraged them to follow him.
Sinners were his target audience. :)
Only sinners who at some point decided they wanted to stop being sinners. Determined, unrepentant sinners were to be first privately rebuked and corrected, then publicly rebuked and corrected, then asked to leave the church body until they were able to be truly repentant as evidenced by their actions. So at most you get to diddle three kids before you are ejected from the entire church body, nevermind being allowed to keep leading it. And really, you shouldn't get more than one, because it is also a tenet of the faith that you must obey the secular law except where it directly conflicts with God's law, thus part of repentance would necessarily be accepting the legal consequences of your illegal actions.
... So at most you get to diddle three kids before you are ejected from the entire church body, nevermind being allowed to keep leading it...
Haggis!
But Jesus welcomed sinners, and encouraged them to follow him.
Exactly.
Jesus welcomed sinners, not the congregation.
Only sinners who at some point decided they wanted to stop being sinners. Determined, unrepentant sinners were to be first privately rebuked and corrected, then publicly rebuked and corrected, then asked to leave the church body until they were able to be truly repentant as evidenced by their actions. So at most you get to diddle three kids before you are ejected from the entire church body, nevermind being allowed to keep leading it. And really, you shouldn't get more than one, because it is also a tenet of the faith that you must obey the secular law except where it directly conflicts with God's law, thus part of repentance would necessarily be accepting the legal consequences of your illegal actions.
And then they became suicide bombers.
Well yeah, duh...jews.
I'm kidding. I kid. :)
[Non PC English humor]
Pedophilia, Irish Style: Granny Groping
[/Non PC English Humor]
in 1992, everyone thought Sinead O'Connor was nuts. now, maybe not so much. Her opinion piece in the Washington Post is here:
one must realize that we Irish endured a brutal brand of Catholicism that revolved around the humiliation of children . . . I spent 18 months in An Grianán Training Centre, an institution in Dublin for girls with behavioral problems, at the recommendation of a social worker. An Grianán was one of the now-infamous church-sponsored "Magdalene laundries," which housed pregnant teenagers and uncooperative young women. We worked in the basement, washing priests' clothes in sinks with cold water and bars of soap. . . .
Irish Catholics are in a dysfunctional relationship with an abusive organization. The pope must take responsibility for the actions of his subordinates. . . . In Ireland, it is time we separated our God from our religion, and our faith from its alleged leaders.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/25/AR2010032502363.html?hpid=opinionsbox1Richard has produced some really great stuff but this is a bit over the top..
Richard Dawkins: I will arrest Pope Benedict XVI
RICHARD DAWKINS, the atheist campaigner, is planning a legal ambush to have the Pope arrested during his state visit to Britain “for crimes against humanity”.
Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens, the atheist author, have asked human rights lawyers to produce a case for charging Pope Benedict XVI over his alleged cover-up of sexual abuse in the Catholic church.
The pair believe they can exploit the same legal principle used to arrest Augusto Pinochet, the late Chilean dictator, when he visited Britain in 1998.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article7094310.eceDawkins is an attention whore.
I like Dawkins. He's one of my heros.
Dawkins is an attention whore.
He may actually be serious here, but it also could just be an attention grabbing act to get people, who aren't listening yet, to start thinking about the invulnerability of the church in legal matters. The Pope, like the president, shouldnt be above the law.
A head of state, cannot be charged with crimes against humanity, while he's a head of state. Only after he steps down/is removed from office, and the Pope ain't stepping down.:headshake
I would agree that many plaintiffs' trial attorneys are attention whores--it's in their nature. (ETA: I see Dawkins is styled as an "atheist campaigner." I've never heard of him before, and the attorney comment was coming from my own perspective.)
The concept of trying the pope strikes me personally as less an avenue of justice and more as using him as a scapegoat for revenge--which isn't too Christian, is it?
I found the WikiP article on "universal jurisdiction" quite interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_jurisdictionThe concept of trying the pope strikes me personally as less an avenue of justice and more as using him as a scapegoat for revenge--which isn't too Christian, is it?
:eyebrow:
For one thing Hawkins could give a rats ass about being Christian. His point, which I agree with, is that its about time we start punching through the invisible force field that protects Catholic Priests from being prosecuted for their heinous acts and that all starts at the top.
priests and laymen are being prosecuted for this, and have been for decades. Who is Hawkins?
Oops..."D".
The church is protecting them though. Keeping it under wraps by just moving the them to other parishes.
ok; thought maybe you meant Hitchens, the author from the article
ok; thought maybe you meant Hitchens, the author from the article
I was probably trying to combine their names...:3eye:.
Even though the Church (Pope) is guilty of non-action, or the wrong action, the Church (Pope) isn't responsible for the non-action by all those district attorneys. These are civil crimes, felonies, that should have been prosecuted. If more DAs had done that, more people would have spoken up. Seeing others complain, and be ignored by law enforcement, has a chilling effect on the rest.
Like I said, its a matter of breaking through that 'force field' that seems to protect the church. DA's non-action is an off shoot of that. Putting pressure on arresting the Pope is just a way of keep the issue alive and hot.
understand I'm not making apologies for the RC church, but to me it's a complex issue and one that I spend a lot of time thinking about. Going after the pope just strikes me as a grandstanding move. Maybe it's what's needed, but I tend to think it's a futile gesture.
I don't like churches in general, and I think power corrupts. But I think the priests were at first trying to apply prayer and compassion to this problem and to their brothers. This was their SOP, because they live in a different world from the secular, civil world we live in. To us, it makes sense to go through the civil authorities--to them, not so much. These men seek their answers from above, either through their own hierarchy or from the divine.
I see sex with children as a constant variation of human sexual norms throughout history. It is abhorrent to me, because a child cannot consent. No culture today condones it, but no one has a good system for addressing the problem in place. We as a society, are playing catchup, trying to mitigate a problem that has been with us all along, in all segments of society. How many children have been sexually abused by their parents or close relatives? Far more than were victimized by religious. [ETA] What about the young girls being sold into sexual slavery by their parents in Yemen and other places? And yet, so very little education or preventive measure are in place even today.
As far as the church goes, I see secrecy and naivete making the problem worse. Not only did the priests not talk about the issue of pedophilia, but normal human sexuality is not addressed in seminaries. There was no framework for these men to even begin to understand their problem or seek help. Efforts have been made to correct this, and to formulate more open rules and procedures. Is it enough? dunno. All of the religious people I've met are sincerely appalled and ashamed, and compassionate to the victims.
I also see greed and opportunism on the part of journalists, LEOs, politicians, and yes, even victims. They wait 30 years, and all of a sudden claim to remember being abused, and now blame all of their loser lives on it, and want millions of dollars. That's an oversimplification, or course, but there's no doubt that greed and revenge is playing a part in this situation.
I'm just working through these thoughts.
Even though the Church (Pope) is guilty of non-action, or the wrong action, the Church (Pope) isn't responsible for the non-action by all those district attorneys. These are civil crimes, felonies, that should have been prosecuted. If more DAs had done that, more people would have spoken up. Seeing others complain, and be ignored by law enforcement, has a chilling effect on the rest.
Wait, you're saying that the church has been filing police reports about the crimes committed by priests all along and the DAs have just not been prosecuting them?
Wait, you're saying that the church has been filing police reports about the crimes committed by priests all along and the DAs have just not been prosecuting them?
Each church diocese has kept detailed records of their pedophiles and other 'crimes'. But the only DA I know of that subpoenaed those records is Lynn Abraham of Philadelphia. Those were published in the Philly Inquirer. Some of it still exists in
Philadelphia Grand Jury Report on Pedophile Priests And the Archbishops Who Protect Them
So yes, we should be asking about the cozy relationship between the church and government prosecutors. After all, the Pope ordered all catholic lawmakers to change the laws to conform to church doctrine even if it contradicts fundamental American principles. How much influence does the church have on all Americans? How many DA's refused to subpoena the records that all dioceses keep?
List of where sexually abusive priests were located:
http://www.philadelphiadistrictattorney.com/images/Appendix_B.pdfWait, you're saying that the church has been filing police reports about the crimes committed by priests all along and the DAs have just not been prosecuting them?
No, I'm saying victims, and their families, have made complaints to civil authorities that weren't prosecuted.
Well Lady, in order to press charges, your kid will have to take the stand, and your family will be at the center of, possibly even blamed for, this scandal embarrassing the church. Or you can just let the Bishop handle it, and still go to heaven.
the Pope ordered all catholic lawmakers to change the laws to conform to church doctrine even if it contradicts fundamental American principles.
Got some proof of that?
List of where sexually abusive priests were located:
You linked to the wrong one - Appendix B. . .
This is the correct linkInteresting - A few quick points - 95 priests since the early 50's.
Some of these guys were dead when the church first heard. Many were let go/had power removed... They were very few where the church did little or nothing. In many cases the church did not know for decades.
Some number crunching should be done with this. I'd like to see how the data shakes out.
One guy was found with pron and had it removed - that was his "abuse."
Most were much worse and although NONE OF THIS IS OK with me and I'd like to believe that the first call should have been to the authorities upon hearing about this type of thing in ANY organization - even moreso from a religious one, but I still wonder how much abuse still gets covered up.
No, I'm saying victims, and their families, have made complaints to civil authorities that weren't prosecuted.
So why could Lynn Abraham have the balls to convene a grand jury. While prosecutors all over the country would not? Why was abuse so widespread but mostly prosecution had to occur through civil trials?
Had this been the mafia, the Feds would have been all over it.
Go back and read the rest of my post.
So why could Lynn Abraham have the balls to convene a grand jury. ...
Maybe she's not catholic.
before the last 20 years, most kids did not tell. (Even now, most kids do not cry out of abuse, regardless of who is doing the abusing.) of those that did, very few parents believed them. of those that believed them, very few parents took it further. Those that took their claims to the police were investigated, and many were prosecuted criminally.
Well Lady, in order to press charges, your kid will have to take the stand, and your family will be at the center of, possibly even blamed for, this scandal embarrassing the church. Or you can just let the Bishop handle it, and still go to heaven.
When I read this post of Bruce's, the first thing that came into my mind was: well, that's how they treat rape victims, too. Those in power do not want to address the problems of the powerless, like women or children:
only a handful of states still use the grand jury system btw
Richard has produced some really great stuff but this is a bit over the top..
Richard Dawkins: I will arrest Pope Benedict XVI
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article7094310.ece
Shocking as it may be, that is not a quote from Dawkins, but from a Times headline writer. Apparently, it was misleading enough that even a Murdoch paper had to fix it - it is no longer the headline at that link.
A head of state, cannot be charged with crimes against humanity, while he's a head of state. Only after he steps down/is removed from office, and the Pope ain't stepping down.:headshake
Part of the reasoning in the article is that the Vatican isn't a real country, and the Pope isn't a real head of state. Not that I think the arrest will happen.
Go back and read the rest of my post.
It is called a Grand Jury. The lady has no choice. She and her kid would have to testify.
So why is Philly but the few who would open a grand jury investigation five years ago. A question not just for America. A question for Australia, Ireland, Germany, Canada, India, Italy, Spain and Chile. Clearly this was never just an American problem. Whereas the Church said they were turning such priest over to local jurisdication, Lynn Abraham's Grand Jury five years ago demonstrated it was just the opposite.
Well, maybe she is not Catholic. Irrelevant. No matter how many times I try, even I cannot get myself excommunicated. But then I couldn't get on Nixon's Enemies list either.
It is called a Grand Jury. The lady has no choice. She and her kid would have to testify.
Not if the grand jury doesn't hear about it.
So why is Philly but the few who would open a grand jury investigation five years ago. A question not just for America. A question for Australia, Ireland, Germany, Canada, India, Italy, Spain and Chile. Clearly this was never just an American problem. Whereas the Church said they were turning such priest over to local jurisdication, Lynn Abraham's Grand Jury five years ago demonstrated it was just the opposite.
Good for Abraham, one of how many tens of thousands of DAs in this country?
Why do you keep asking the same question, one that nobody can possibly answer?
Shocking as it may be, that is not a quote from Dawkins, but from a Times headline writer. Apparently, it was misleading enough that even a Murdoch paper had to fix it - it is no longer the headline at that link.
Interesting.
Why do you keep asking the same question, one that nobody can possibly answer?
Because some questions are what everyone should be asking. Or else the problem festers. How many could not be bothered to look into Watergate? How much pedophilia was condoned by the Catholic Church because a majority did not ask such damning questions?
Another damning question that virtually no one asked. And so that problem got away with murder. When do we go after bin Laden? For seven years, America never did and virtually nobody asked.
Most every DA (for reasons that everyone should be demanding from their DAs) could not bother to investigate internationally protected pedophilia? Why not? Not just that DAs did not investigate. Why is an overwhelming majority even in the Cellar not asking this damning five years ago when the church was into “coverup mode”?
Because I don't have kids, I'm not Catholic, I'm not a DA, and I had more Pressing worries.
Yep just the that big ole bad Catholic Church - Perhaps the question should be how many other churches is this happening in?
Maybe we should ask China why they keep aborting female fetus'?
Or murdering dissidents?
Maybe we should ask why there are still drugs coming over the border from Mexico?
Yep just the that big ole bad Catholic Church - Perhaps the question should be how many other churches is this happening in?
Maybe we should ask China why they keep aborting female fetus'?
Or murdering dissidents?
Maybe we should ask why there are still drugs coming over the border from Mexico?
So get some info together and start a thread. That's how it works. :rolleyes:
thanks but no thanks - right now I got more important things in my life.
Perhaps the question should be...
Then why are you suggesting these things should be questioned when we're busy questioning something else? You just think we should stop questioning the catholic church for some reason? Tough shit.
Then why are you suggesting these things should be questioned when we're busy questioning something else?
I was following the progression of the last few posts from tw & Bruce.
You just think we should stop questioning the catholic church for some reason?
No, not at all - Where did I EVER say that? PLEASE cite, please!
My opinion is and has been that this is not exclusive to the Catholic Church. To act like it is and repeatedly attack them as if that were true is bullshit. I and I've repeatedly made that point.
To act like it is
Who did this??!!! CITE! OMGZ!!11!
This *is* a thread specific to the catholic church pedophilia and cover up though - so talking about abortion in China doesn't make sense.
there are about 5 pages of it.
and thread drift is uncommon as well?
... as you were.
Is there a limit?
It's not thread drift if you don't actually want to talk about it, and as you said, you don't. You just want someone else to.
Yeah, thanks.
(sits back in rocking chair, smoking pipe):
This reminds me of an old job application I once perused, back in my days with the country club.
Under "what job did you like the least and why" the kid replied "McDonalds. I didn't like the greasy environment."
Under "what was your favorite job" he wrote "McDonalds."
A cow orker, a funny young lady, said, while nodding her head knowingly "hmmmm, he really DOES like the greasy environment."
My point? Do you love or hate the Catholic Church? Despite your protestations that you have your own problems with it, you have NEVER jumped higher off the fence in your assertion that we should just stop talking about it. I'm not even saying you SHOULD love or hate it, but why can't anyone else talk about it? It's what THIS thread is about.
The whole "hush hush" you seem to advocate sounds like...EGAD...what this thread is about!
You are employing your *ahem* classic Classic debate style.
I didn't say this. I didn't say that. Cite it please. Verbatim.
I mean all this in the best of ways, of course.
My opinion is and has been that this is not exclusive to the Catholic Church.
Do you think it is more common in the C, or equally as common in all walks of life?
I don't think its an issue specific to the CC - aside from that I don't know.
Sadly, I think its probably more common in other religious organizations as was mentioned a few pages back by Squirrel.
As far as it happening in other organizations, I don't think they have the structural design for it to be as much of an issue.
My point? Do you love or hate the Catholic Church?
neither
Despite your protestations that you have your own problems with it, you have NEVER jumped higher off the fence in your assertion that we should just stop talking about it.
I never said we should stop talking about it - N.E.V.E.R.
I'm not even saying you SHOULD love or hate it, but why can't anyone else talk about it? It's what THIS thread is about.
I never said you couldn't. 0 fer 3
The whole "hush hush" you seem to advocate sounds like...EGAD...what this thread is about!
WTF are you talking about?
You are employing your *ahem* classic Classic debate style.
I didn't say this. I didn't say that. Cite it please. Verbatim.
Which proved my point - you cannot because I never said it.
I mean all this in the best of ways, of course.
:right:
You, my kind sir, have outdone even yourself. :applause:
;)
Classicman, is being his classic self.
Jebus, it boggles my mind.
I don't think its an issue specific to the CC - aside from that I don't know.
Sadly, I think its probably more common in other religious organizations as was mentioned a few pages back by Squirrel.
As far as it happening in other organizations, I don't think they have the structural design for it to be as much of an issue.
So it does happen in other organizations, but you're not certain whether it happens more in the CC than in, say, Hebrew school. But more likely in all religious organizations than in all non-religious such as camp leaders and sports coaches, band instructors etc.
what's that - reality?
Buuurrrrrrrrrnnnnnnnnnnnnn. :D
I actually almost changed my user title this week to "now with an even more tenuous grasp on reality" but I couldn't decide between using "reality" or "sanity."
So it does happen in other organizations, but you're not certain whether it happens more in the CC than in, say, Hebrew school.
Correct.
But more likely in all religious organizations than in all non-religious such as camp leaders and sports coaches, band instructors etc.
We know it happens/has happened in many organizations - schools, scouts, sports... I don't think it happens in "all" of anything.
It happens in any organization with a power structure that has a vested interest in covering it up, and a membership base too 'loyal' to walk away after the betrayal.
It'll be interesting to see how loyal American Catholics really are. My sampling to date suggests that the RCC is in for a very long, bumpy and ugly ride.
It'll be interesting to see how loyal American Catholics really are.
Most are not loyal at all. The churches are closing left and right.
I've kind of lost track of the point of this thread. Was there a point?
I'm getting really very frustrated at the vitriol against the Catholic Church. Yes, it happened, and it's horrible, and I'm glad it's been brought to light. But . . .
I believe that the percentage of people victimized by religious is minuscule compared to the young people that are being abused every day by their parents, relatives, stepparents, friends of their parents, by foster parents and the foster system. Yet there is no corresponding outcry against parents; no demand to overhaul the foster care system, no widescale lawsuits against the state. Why? Because we're all too busy pointing fingers at the convenient, easy to hate, churches. And you can't sue states anyway, because they have immunity.
I say, get to the root of the problem in our society through openness and education. People can be indignent and righteous all they want by pointing fingers, but this is a wider problem, and the wider problem is not being addressed, because people don't want to believe this is happening in their backyard, in their homes, in their neighborhood, to their own loved ones.
pfagh!
It happens in any organization with a power structure that has a vested interest in covering it up, and a membership base too 'loyal' to walk away after the betrayal.
...
Like the Dallas Cowboys.
...I say, get to the root of the problem in our society through openness and education...
But that would mean that Americans would have to have a health, mature perspective on sex, and ALL churches are against that.
which is why I don't like organized religion much
and ALL churches are against that.
thank you.
But especially the Roman Catholic Church:stickpoke:comfort:J/K
People can be indignent and righteous all they want by pointing fingers, but this is a wider problem, and the wider problem is not being addressed, because people don't want to believe this is happening in their backyard, in their homes, in their neighborhood, to their own loved ones.
I disagree. People who work in schools or with children are now required to have a criminal background and child abuse check thru their state police. People talk to their kids now, not just about 'stranger danger' but about who's allowed to touch their bodies and where and why. People ARE willing to believe this shit happens, and they are more involved with their kid's lives because of it. That's why kids are involved in so many activities these days, often with their parents involved right there with them. That's why kids have play dates instead of just roaming wild in the streets.
The foster care system? You're going to compare that to a church? Odd, but... I do see the failures of the foster care system brought to light on the news frequently, as they should be. I don't see people saying things like "I'm a good social worker" like it makes them a better person with a stronger moral compass than those they are comparing themselves to.
As a recovered Catholic I'll say that, reprehensible as it is, condoning kid boinking is among the least of the church's transgressions.
As a recovered Catholic I'll say that, reprehensible as it is, condoning kid boinking is among the least of the church's transgressions.
I suppose you say that for effect, but I think you should reconsider. How on earth could condoning kid boinking be low on ANY list of transgressions.
how many things are worse?
Not for effect and I will work on a short catalog of the church's major transgressions throughout history. But to whet your appetite, head on back to the inquisition or read up on the case of
Peter Stumpp:
His execution is one of the most brutal on record: He was put to the wheel, where flesh was torn from his body, in ten places, with red-hot pincers, followed by his arms and legs. Then his limbs were broken with the blunt side of an axehead to prevent him from returning from the grave, before he was beheaded and burned on a pyre. His daughter and mistress had already been flayed, raped, and strangled and were burned alive along with Stumpp's body. As a warning against similar behavior, local authorities erected a pole with the torture wheel and the figure of a wolf on it, and at the very top they placed Peter Stumpp's severed head.
There's plenty more where that came from, and it was all duplicity in service of cementing power under the guise holiness. The church has battled science and reason because frightened people are much easier to manipulate and control. Can you imagine what things would be like if people still believed in witches and werewolves?
it would be nice to think that the wider problem of sexual misconduct with minors is being addressed adequately in our society. Sadly, I know from personal, direct experience, it is not. Not enough, anyway.
Then there's the charming story of
The Nuns of Loudun Another political power play resulting in torture, madness, death. Ken Russel's film,
The Devils is based on the story.
still..... condoning pedophilia in this day and age is RIGHT THE FUCK UP THERE
OK, I get your point, cheating old ladies out of their pensions by fixing bingo games is probably among the least, and yes the pedo thing is right up there, but I think I meant among the things right up there, it's not at the top of the top, well, maybe it is really fucked up to try to compare anything in the top of the list.
The whole thing is fucked up.
gotta be in the top on anyone's list
OK, I get your point, cheating old ladies out of their pensions by fixing bingo games is probably among the least, and yes the pedo thing is right up there, but I think I meant among the things right up there, it's not at the top of the top, well, maybe it is really fucked up to try to compare anything in the top of the list.
The whole thing is fucked up.
we're here:
:: points at his forehead...then at yours, then back at his, then back at yours::
if I make a smile for this....would you vote for it?
Philadelphia.
Pedophilia.
See what I mean?
Then there's the charming story of The Nuns of Loudun Another political power play resulting in torture, madness, death. Ken Russel's film, The Devils is based on the story.
One of my heroes, Derek Jarman, was the Set Designer for that film.
When I read his biography I cry at the end. Even though I (obviously!) know how it ends.
Great talent, taken too soon.
Anyway, as you were.
... Can you imagine what things would be like if people still believed in witches and werewolves?
They don't?
Nah, they're all about the wampires now. Everywhere you look are wampires. Where is the outrage?
Nah, they're all about the wampires now. Everywhere you look are wampires. Where is the outrage?
Yeah - guys that come back from the dead. What hogwash!
Probably coming back to steal our healthcare. Selfish freakface wampires.
Yeah - guys that come back from the dead. What hogwash!
Jesus was a eripmav - he came back from the dead and made everyone drink
his blood.
so THAT's what a reverse Vampire is
.....and a reverse cowboy?
i think she meant reverse cowgirl!
i think she meant reverse cowgirl!
That's what I had pictured anyway.
I did mean a reverse Cowgirl! lol
Maybe shel can tell us what a reverse cowboy is? :P
Maybe shel can tell us what a reverse cowboy is? :P
Physically impossible or downright uncomfortable to say the least!
Retires to search somewhat more arcane corners of the Interweb.
I doubt sheldon would find it uncomfortable :P
I was really enjoying my image of Dana doing a reverse cowgirl for a minute there...
Well...I'd have hoped for more than a bloody minute!
Well...I'd have hoped for more than a bloody minute!
The image of Shel and the reverse cowboy pretty much quashed it for me.
From the Washington Post of 18 April 2010:
Five myths about the Catholic sexual abuse scandal
An extensive 2007 investigation by the Associated Press showed that sexual abuse of children in U.S. schools was "widespread," and most of it was never reported or punished. And in Portland, Ore., last week, a jury reached a $1.4 million verdict against the Boy Scouts of America in a trial that showed that since the 1920s, Scouts officials kept "perversion files" on suspected abusers but kept them secret. ...
Part of the issue is that the Catholic Church is so tightly organized and keeps such meticulous records -- many of which have come to light voluntarily or through court orders -- that it can yield a fairly reliable portrait of its personnel and abuse over the decades. Other institutions, and most other religions, are more decentralized and harder to analyze or prosecute. ...
A 2007 Pew survey of the religious landscape in America found that among Catholics who had left the church, the abuse crisis ranked low on the list of reasons -- well behind church teachings on homosexuality, the role of women, abortion and contraception. And a 2008 poll ... showed that even the bishops had enjoyed a rebound in approval, with satisfaction with the hierarchy growing from 58 percent in 2004 to 72 percent in 2008.
And a 2008 poll ... showed that even the bishops had enjoyed a rebound in approval, with satisfaction with the hierarchy growing from 58 percent in 2004 to 72 percent in 2008.
Maybe because some of the dissatisfied have left the church.
Beebe Medical Center heard allegations about Dr. Earl Bradley 14 years ago
Facing 18 lawsuits in case, hospital could go into bankruptcy
After four months of revealing little of what they knew about pediatrician Earl B. Bradley, accused of sexually abusing patients for years, administrators at Beebe Medical Center now say they investigated a 1996 report that he inappropriately touched young girls.
Hospital officials cleared Bradley of misconduct after reviewing the complaint by a nurse who worked with Bradley at his Beebe office.
The incident was never reported to Delaware's medical disciplinary board. Police and prosecutors did not learn about the hospital's investigation of Bradley until after they charged him recently with rape and sexual abuse of 103 patients during examinations or visits to an outbuilding at his office near Lewes.
The admission of the 1996 investigation comes as the hospital prepares to defend itself against at least 18 lawsuits from families of Bradley's alleged victims. Beebe officials said they fear the lawsuits could force the hospital into bankruptcy.
The disclosures are a turnabout from the hospital's posture just a few days after Bradley's Dec. 16 arrest, when officials at Beebe said they had no inkling of any past problems with Bradley. Since then, Beebe officials have acknowledged withholding facts that they have gradually released. During a two-hour interview in the Lewes office of the hospital's CEO, the clearest picture yet has emerged of Bradley's relationship with Beebe, where he worked in various capacities from 1994 until being locked up in December.
Sitting at a table in his office, Beebe CEO Jeffrey M. Fried told The News Journal that hospital officials did not inform Milford police in 2005 that the hospital had investigated the way Bradley kissed and touched girls he treated in 1996.
In 2005, Milford police also were investigating complaints Bradley offensively kissed and touched young girls, but Beebe officials kept quiet, despite receiving a subpoena in the Milford case seeking any complaints and disciplinary actions against Bradley.
Link
Link
from the video link:
"It is absolutely imperative that this hospital survive"
At what cost? Was this part of the decision that was made not to report this A-hole?
When a nurse complains about a Doctor, she better have a good case with corroborating witnesses or evidence. If not, they'll clear the Doctor, because they have no way of knowing her motivation. Not the least of which is Doctors (caution, broad brush) tend to be self-centered/condescending when it comes to the help.
You know, I was thinking... the righteous indignation about children I see today, either didn't exist or was at least much less apparent years ago. I mean on a community/national level. These days you can't look at a kid sideways without a lynch mob forming. Whereas years ago, if the kid wasn't physically injured, people not immediately involved would be more like, tsk tsk, that's a shame, what's for supper? The emotional well being of other peoples kids, and sometimes their own, was not a big concern. Maybe that's why the Catholic Church was so successful at covering up these incidents.
Not to mention that there used to be a default position within society of disbelieving children when they spoke up about abuse of this kind.
You know, I was thinking... the righteous indignation about children I see today, either didn't exist or was at least much less apparent years ago. I mean on a community/national level. These days you can't look at a kid sideways without a lynch mob forming. Whereas years ago, if the kid wasn't physically injured, people not immediately involved would be more like, tsk tsk, that's a shame, what's for supper? The emotional well being of other peoples kids, and sometimes their own, was not a big concern. Maybe that's why the Catholic Church was so successful at covering up these incidents.
"Righteous indignation" and "lynch mob" both sound very negative, while "these incidents" not so much.
That jumps right out at me.
They has a plan, or maybe it's a how-to manual:
"Righteous indignation" and "lynch mob" both sound very negative, while "these incidents" not so much.
That jumps right out at me.
I can't think of a better way to describe public reaction to any reports, even alleged. I've seen it right here on this board, calls for lynching, torture, sexual mutilation, etc.
Just when you thought the thread was done.
Catholic League: Not All Gay Sex is Abusive
The entire post:
Catholic League president Bill Donohue comments on a story in today's New York Times about a case of alleged sexual abuse committed by a Chilean priest:
If a 17-year old guy has sex with an older guy for twenty years, and continues to have sex with him at the age of 38—while he is married with children—is there anyone who would believe his claim that he was sexually abused? The answer is yes: the New York Times would. That's exactly what happened in the case described in today's newspaper involving a homosexual affair between Chilean priest Fr. Fernando Karadima, now 79, and Dr. James Hamilton, now 44.
Why would the New York Times try to sell this so-called abuse story with a straight face? For two reasons: it wallows in stories designed to weaken the moral authority of the Catholic Church, and it is so gay-friendly as to be gay-crazy.
According to the Times, it all started with a kiss. Let me be very clear about this: if some guy tried to kiss me when I was 17, I would have flattened him. I most certainly would not go on a retreat with the so-called abuser, unless, of course, I liked it. Indeed, Hamilton liked it so much he went back for more—20 years more. Even after he got married, he couldn't resist going back for more.
So what about the priest? He is a disgrace. Throw the book at him for all I care. But let's not be fooled into thinking that Dr. Hamilton is a victim. The real news story here is not another case of homosexual molestation, it's the political motivation of the New York Times.
Would you say it's abuse for a 52 year old to have "consensual" sex with a 17 year old? Never mind gay sex, never mind priest sex. The Catholic League is twisting like a pretzel here, trying to make everything OK. It's so much crap, it's practically entertaining.
Not to mention the Catholic church thinks sex outside of marriage or for anything other than procreation is wrong. So yeah, they can leave out the genders and the ages and whatever else they want, they're waffling on their face! (which is probably a lot like pancakes on your face.)
Vatican: Pope may apologize for abuse by priests
AP - Wednesday, April 28, 2010; 8:56 AM
VATICAN CITY -- Pope Benedict XVI may issue a mea culpa for clerical sex abuse at a June meeting of the world's priests at the Vatican.
The June 9-11 summit, initially called to mark the end of the Vatican's year of the priest, had already morphed into a pep rally for the pope as he came under fire amid a new wave of reports on sex abuse by clerics.
Now, according to the top Vatican official dealing with abuse, it's possible that Benedict may issue some form of an apology at the meeting.
Cardinal William Levada, head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, told U.S. public broadcaster PBS on Tuesday that he "wouldn't be surprised" if the pontiff issues a mea culpa at the meeting.
well, that's what the SNAP people have wanted all along. Maybe they'll shut up now.
You know, I was thinking... the righteous indignation about children I see today, either didn't exist or was at least much less apparent years ago. I mean on a community/national level. These days you can't look at a kid sideways without a lynch mob forming. Whereas years ago, if the kid wasn't physically injured, people not immediately involved would be more like, tsk tsk, that's a shame, what's for supper? The emotional well being of other peoples kids, and sometimes their own, was not a big concern. Maybe that's why the Catholic Church was so successful at covering up these incidents.
"Righteous indignation" and "lynch mob" both sound very negative, while "these incidents" not so much.
That jumps right out at me.
I don't think Bruce is supportive of that view, and I do think it's an accurate description of values previously held.
I personally knew two girls abused as children. One was called back in her late teens or twenties to give evidence about a school caretaker (janitor) who exposed himself to her and was on trial for more serious abuses with other young girls. She reported the incident in the '70s and the reaction was very much, "There, there, no harm done." The report was filed, which is why she was tracked down later.
The second was physically abused and again, she reported it. Not to the police in her case - she was in care and reported it to the people higher up in the facility. No-one believed her. It was only a family member who heard gossip years later that made any of her family take it seriously. She was simply seen as being "disturbed" because of her background and the reasons she was in care in the first place. She had nothing like a criminal trial or conviction to give her closure, but at least in the end her family accepted what had happened. This was in the late '60s.
We are seeing the rubber-band syndrome common to any large social change.
At first, there's no action (i.e., sexual abuse is not talked about, kids are not believed, things are covered up, perps taking the cure)
Next, there's a huge overreaction. Everybody talks about it, there's an outcry, lawsuits filed, new laws made, new social reactions and institutions put into place. That's where we are now.
The final stage is winding down from the overreaction, making sure the new societal institutions and responses are working, and homogenization of the social position. We're not there yet.
This is merely my own, completely unscientific, opinion, but I see this progression a lot.
I agree about the rubber-band analogy. Very good. That is true and usually the way we settle down into a real change.
I do have a hard time labeling late reactions to abuse as "overreaction" especially when the outcry involves abuse of children...whose voices have gone unheard for far too long.
an extreme reaction, then. It's not an "over" reaction in the sense that it's unnecessary or unjustified, just -- big.
Yeah, I'm not trying to argue semantics, I totally see what you're saying. It is an extreme reaction in the rubber band analogy. We can hope it settles into a better understanding of this touchy issue.
We are seeing the rubber-band syndrome common to any large social change.
Characteristic of an under-damped system. A response that exceeds what is needed followed by oscillations (hype and then inaction, then more hype) that dampens with time. A classic underdamped response - 11 September followed by the 'veins hanging from teeth' attitude that wanted Saddam's head.
But this pedophilia response is not a knee-jerk reaction to an evil. This problem has been festering for generations. It was openly addressed in 2004. Dioceses all over the world have been in process to hide or protect assets for five years now. And still we have only addressed the problem in but a few nations.
What is the number for Malta? Something like 80 of 450 priests are known (by church records) to be pedophiles? IOW the response has really been tame. A classic example of an overdamped response where the response slowly keeps increasing - does not overreach.
The world's response to church hidden pedophilia has been extremely tame. Which is why an issue obvious all over America in 2004 is only just being discovered six years later in Ireland, Malta, Germany, etc.
This will not end until we know the Church's numbers (that should be significant) from every nation. Furthermore, the problem will never be solved as long as the Church has this introverted policy of priests who do not marry. Even marriage of gay priests should be encouraged. But that means the Catholic Church acknowledges reality. Even when all American bishops traveled in mass to Rome to plead for a solution, the Catholic Church choose to deny pedophilia exists - did nothing.
That is the problem. Apologies without action are only useless propaganda. The church has reams of files. Minimal action is to turn those files over to local authorities.
touchy issue, lol.
snort
Pun was not intended, but it was a good one!
But what about tw's pun? ("reams of files")
But what about tw's pun? ("reams of files")
Files are paper. Reams measures paper. Where is the pun?
Add Chile and Brazil to countries discovering pedophilia among their clergy. From the Washington Post of 28 April 2010:
A Roman Catholic priest in Brazil is facing charges he abused eight boys in cases dating back to 1995, prosecutors said Wednesday, adding to a growing list of allegations against clergy in Latin America. ...
Prosecutors said the reported abuses occurred this year, in 2009 and in 2001 in the city of Franca, ...
Calls to the Franca diocese rang unanswered. After-hours of calls to the offices of the National Conference of Brazilian Bishops were not returned. ...
A priest in Chile was charged recently with eight cases of sexually abusing minors, including a girl he had fathered.
No, files are steel, and reams are Sheldon's scorecard.;)
Files are paper. Reams measures paper. Where is the pun?
Reaming is also another word for vigorous anal sex; e.g. "Toyota is getting completely reamed by this latest recall."
Files are paper. Reams measures paper.
Paper covers rock!
;)
Reamers are a printing device used to create or enlarge a hole in paper.
The slang use of ream, reaming, reamer is used almost exclusively in terms of anal sex (more usually gay anal sex) for this reason.
In this country at least.
The world's response to church hidden pedophilia has been extremely tame. Which is why an issue obvious all over America in 2004 is only just being discovered six years later in Ireland, Malta, Germany, etc.
The DA for Philadelphia subpoenaed Archdioceses records. Proved that one (of three Philly) Archdiocese had hundreds of known pedophiles. So the church responded? Of course not. Instead they hired consultants.
Six years later, the Philadelphia Archdiocese knew of more priests sexually attacking kids for years. Leaks suggest the church knew of at least 37 pedophiles left in positions of high risk.
A Philadelphia Grand Jury has accused two priests and a teacher for sexually molesting kids for more than two years. And Monsignor Lynn of Downingtown, whose jobs was to eliminate this problem, instead, knew this was ongoing and condoned it. Remember that name - forever. He is more guilty than the pedophiles. If Catholics are patriotic Americans, then that Monsignor goes to jail for a minimum of 14 years. And Catholics complain that was not long enough. But most Catholics so love pedophilia as to again remain quiet. If you are Catholic, you are part of a corrupt oganization that remains corrupt because you will again remain quiet. This is when four letter words should appear in your posts alongside the Cardinal's name.
He did what the Church wanted? 85% of all problems are directly traceable to the same people who condoned this decades previously and are still there.
Leaks say Philly Cardinal Rigali and many subordinates knew of this and other sexual abuses. And did nothing. Leaks suggest others including the Cardinal could be prosecuted. Yes, because corruption will never stop until the guy who protects overt penis activity is ‘beheaded’. Yes, beheaded. The Cardinal's
public response was to bring back consultants who so successfully covered up previous organized sexual crimes.
Philadelphia’s DA Lyn Abraham demonstrated that every state should subpoena all Church records to find the thousands of pedophile priests. Yes, thousands. Question is how many thousands should be prosecuted? In part because so many Catholics are that brainwashed as to condone this stuff.
Someone asked about Ken Starr. Well, how many actually guilty penises need to be chased? Why we do chase one penis only for a political agenda? And not the penises of thousands who support extremism and hate? Philadelphia is not an exception.
Most every if not most Catholic Archdioceses have and have been protecting pedophiles. How many Archdioceses? Are 100 Archdioceses are guilty of protecting pedophiles? Ricoh laws were created to prosecute such organizations. 85% of all problems are directly traceable to the top penis. My comments are tame compared to what others here should be posting. Shame on anyone who says anything nice about Cardinal Rigali. Who ‘loves’ kids – by proxy.
From the Cardinal on 10 Feb 2011:
I assure all the faithful that there are no archdiocesan priests in ministry today who have an admitted or established allegation of sexual abuse of a minor against them.
Which is spin for "the Archdioceses has successfully protected pedophiles from prosecution". So that Cardinal is doing his job.
My father was a die-hard Catholic when he was young. He was on track to go to seminary and become a priest. He felt it was his calling.
His mentor demanded sex. He refused and stopped pursuing that path.
I'm glad, because I likely would not exist if it weren't so.
Ever since that episode he's had a shaky relationship with the church. For the last several years, he and my mother have stopped identifying as Catholics and have attended a Protestant (I can't remember what flavor) church.
I have to wonder if this sort of widespread paedophilia and sexual misconduct is unique to the Catholic church, or if it's common in any sexually repressive (spiritual?) organization.
I have to wonder if this sort of widespread paedophilia and sexual misconduct is unique to the Catholic church, or if it's common in any sexually repressive (spiritual?) organization.
Corruption and contempt for mankind was defined. Does the organization (including non-profit, church, political party, mafia, etc) work for a product? Or are they only into their rewards? The
Philly Inquirer published on 13 Feb 2011:
Probe of how the church investigates allegations against priests found it focuses mostly on its reputation and assets.
Which means the church is no different from the mafia or a president who lies about Mission Accomplished.
Cardinal Justin Rigali condemned that report, especially the assertion that church officials knew exactly what they were doing when they protected pedophile priests over children.
The Grand Jury says Cardinal Rigali was fully aware of pedophile activity. And did nothing to protect kids from rape. Two Grand Juries six year apart discovered the exact same crimes. So he denies it as any murder or rapist also would.
"I assure all the faithful," Rigali wrote, "that there are no archdiocesan priests in ministry today who have an admitted or established allegation of sexual abuse of a minor against them."
Apparently he is living in a world with Mubarak. But Mubarak has morals.
From the
NY Daily News of 13 Feb 2011:
Archbishop Timothy Dolan slammed as "ludicrous" Sunday allegations that his old diocese in Milwaukee hid $130 million to avoid paying child abuse victims.
Dolan said he was "saddened" by the claims, which were raised by lawyers for alleged victims of pedophile priests.
Sad? Who had less credibility than a corrupt lawyer? A Catholic bishop.
The Milwaukee archdiocese, faced with a flood of child sex lawsuits, filed for bankruptcy last month.
A rich archdioceses in a very Catholic town could not find $130 million? This scumbag did his job so successfully as to be promoted to an even richer NY archdioceses.
Cardinal Adrianus Simonis—who drew criticism earlier this year when he claimed that Catholic bishops had not been aware of clerical abuse—reportedly gave parish assignments to the pedophile priest after sending him away for treatment. The priest then molested more children in his new parish.
Cardinal Simonis served as Archbishop of Utrecht [Netherlands] from 1983 to 2007
Since so many here are condoning these rapes by their silence, then why would DAs in every state bother to investigate organized pedophilia protection rings? Marci Hamilton notes:
FOX News, Bill O'Reilly, and Sean Hannity, among others, routinely skew reporting on religious issues, and suppress stories that might put religious leaders in a bad light.
A Google News search for "pedophile philadelphia source:Fox source:News" reports not even one news story. Fair and Balanced because Fox News viewers should only be told what to think.
How many extremists here are remaining silent? What happened to the conservative moral majority? If moral, why am I and not they noting these widespread crimes? Silence?
How many more extremist (repressive) organizations - that would impose their extremist dogma on American laws - are promoting pedophilia? Good question. Who else are protecting the worldwide rape of kids - even by their silence?
How many priests are pedophiles? Well this Grand Jury accuses Fr James Brennan. Not to be confused with two Fr Robert Brennans (Robert E and Robert L) cited in the previous Grand Jury report as pedophiles.
Fr James Brennan was assigned to Cardinal O'Hara High School in Springfield PA when he was known to have 'inappropriate contact'. Who was also there? Fr McCarthy (accused in 1970 and in 1986 at that school), Fr Leneweaver, Monsignor Giliberti, Monsignor Furmanski, Fr. Wisniewski, Fr. Gallagher, and Fr. Cannon were also assigned to O'Hara High School and listed in the first Grand Jury pedophile report. Fr. Cribben was the principle who knew of their actions and ignored it. At what point does the church shut down a school to protect the kids? Oh. That would hurt profits.
The second Grand Jury sites another pedophile at that school. And also lists both Cardinals Bevilacqua and Rigali as knowing about the pedophilia while doing nothing to avert it. Both Cardinals even reassigned multiple known pedophile priests to high risk activities. And never once reported these crimes to authorities – as any mafia god father would do. The previous Grand Jury report also accused Cardinal Krol of doing same. That's all three Philadelphia Cardinals protecting pedophilia.
But Fox News was too fair and balanced to report any of this. How may other extremsts protect pedophilia for a poltical agenda? How many other justisdictions will not investigate because extremists hope to cover it up? Why so much silence?
But Fox News was too fair and balanced to report any of this.
Exactly what outlet did report it?
From CatholicCulture.org on 13 Feb 2011:
An editorial in the New York Times argues that the US bishops have failed to recover their credibility in the aftermath of the sex-abuse scandal. Citing the recent report of a grand jury on the Philadelphia archdiocese, the Times observes that there are still widespread suspicions that the bishops have not removed all accused abusers from active ministry.
So the NY Times, a responsible new service, reported it and wrote an editorial. How can that be when Fox News, so fair and balanced, will not even discuss it?
The Pittsburg Tribune asks on 15 Feb 2011:
Did the same thing happen in Pittsburgh?
We are forced to ask this most difficult question given that the Philly grand jury directly implicates Cardinal Anthony Bevilacqua, who stepped down as the prelate of the Philadelphia archdiocese in 2003 and is the former bishop of Pittsburgh.
The grand jury said it "reluctantly" decided to not file charges against Cardinal Bevilacqua because it did not have enough evidence. But he is accused of transferring problem priests to new parishes without divulging prior sexual-abuse allegations.
Did the same thing happen under Bevilacqua's watch in the Diocese of Pittsburgh between 1983 and 1987? It is an eminently fair question given the alleged audacity of the inaction in the Philadelphia cases.
The National Catholic Register, part of EWTN News (a Catholic Church media company) discusses what news organizations reported:
While Church law and the criminal justice system stipulate that the accused are “innocent until proven guilty,” media coverage of last week’s clergy abuse scandals in Philadelphia and Los Angeles gives credence to an opposing principle: The accused are guilty until proven innocent.
Or ABC News on 14 Feb 2011 entitled Suit:Pa. Catholic Leaders Failed to Protect Kids:
A civil lawsuit filed Monday against the Archdiocese of Philadelphia by a man who said two priests had sexually abused him as a child may signal a new era in church-abuse litigation in Pennsylvania. ...
The priests charged with rape by the grand jury are not the same ones named as perpetrators in the man's lawsuit. However, both the grand jury report and the civil suit accuse Monsignor William Lynn, the secretary for clergy for the archdiocese from 1992 to 2004, with failing to protect children from known or suspected molesters.
Meanwhile, the fair and balanced Fox News reported what? Oh. When preaching to the brainwashed, only tell them what they need to hear.
Meanwhile ABC News also reports in "Ex-Dutch Cardinal Denies Cover-up for Abuse Priest":
Some 2,000 cases of sexual abuse are being investigated by an independent commission, headed by a former government minister, set up last year when reports of abuse in the church became a worldwide scandal.
But the Dutch church, which has more than 4 million members, first set up an internal body to deal with abuse allegations in 1995. Known as Help and Law, it has been accused of lacking transparency and accountability.
Simonis was archbishop of Utrecht from 1983 to 2007, and was made a cardinal in 1985.
What did Fox News report about pedophilia? Why so much silence?
Oh. Reporting on pedophiila by conservatives is fair and balanced - when only Fox News is moderate and everyone else is a pinko extremist.
Always trust your kid to horny priests. Fox says it is safe.
From The Economist of 10 Feb 2011 entitled “Chapter 11, verse 8
Facing mounting lawsuits, Catholic dioceses turn to bankruptcy”
Milwaukee has a particularly tortured history. It has been rife with scandal—a Father Lawrence Murphy was alleged to have abused some 200 deaf students, for example, and a convicted priest was sent to work with children in California. Yet civil suits have only recently proved successful. Plaintiffs in other states have charged the church with negligent supervision of priests, but this argument found little traction in Wisconsin’s courts. Victims made progress, at last, in 2007. The archdiocese, plaintiffs claimed, had committed fraud in the 1970s and 1980s by misrepresenting such priests to future victims. The state Supreme Court let that claim stand.
A wave of lawsuits followed and, on January 4th, the archdiocese filed for bankruptcy. The filing puts all the suits on hold. Jeff Anderson, the plaintiffs’ lawyer, argues that the bankruptcy was timed to avoid an embarrassing trial. “It is part of a pattern,” says Mr Anderson, who has brought hundreds of suits against various bits of the church, including one against the Vatican. The archdiocese says this is nonsense. Bankruptcy will simply allow it to deal with creditors equitably and settle claims more quickly than in a trial.
But the bankruptcy will hardly be speedy. All bankruptcies are complex, but those for a church are much more so, explains Jonathan Lipson, a law professor at the University of Wisconsin, Madison. Financial statements filed in the bankruptcy court on February 7th presage fights to come. The archdiocese presented $40.7m in assets, compared with $98.4m in its financial report last year. The discrepancy, the archdiocese says, is because certain assets are held in restricted trusts,
Meanwhile, in Philadelphia, the state of Pennsylvania had passed a law that says charges cannot be filed two years after a priest raped a kid. The report bluntly says a 10 year old victim cannot file charges after the age of 12.
Remember who has power and who is the victim here. Pedophillia is safe when the Pope and his Cardinals can manipulate the laws. The Pope ordered all Catholic American law makers to change American laws to conform with Church doctrine.
Why is it so hard to even get excommunicated?
Always trust your kid to horny priests. Fox says it is safe.
Oh, but
without saying a word about it.
Way to try and have it both ways, lamebrain. "A liar needs a good memory." --Quinilian
Just my opinion but if you deliberately harm a child in any way, priest or not, you should have your genitals ripped from your body and get them shoved in your mouth and made to choke to death on them.
No trial, no appeals and no cover-ups.
And any church, priest or Pope who allows this to happen should suffer the same fate.
No trial, no appeals and no cover-ups.
And any church, priest or Pope who allows this to happen should suffer the same fate.
Careful. UG will use that same 'lynch mob' reasoning to attack you too.
From the NY Times of 8 Mar 2011:
21 Priests Suspended in Philadelphia
The mass suspension was the single-most sweeping in the history of the sexual-abuse scandal in the Roman Catholic Church in the United States, said Terence McKiernan, president of BishopAccountability.org, which archives documents from the abuse scandal in dioceses across the country.
The archdiocese’s action follows a damning grand jury report issued Feb. 10 that accused the archdiocese of a widespread cover-up of predatory priests, stretching over decades, and said that as many as 37 priests remained active in the ministry despite credible accusations against them. ...
Nor did it name the 21 whom it suspended, drawing the fury of groups representing abuse victims. Many parishioners are likely to learn that their priest was accused when he fails to appear for Ash Wednesday services.
The announcement was a major embarrassment for Cardinal Justin Rigali, who, in response to the grand jury report, had initially said there were no priests in active ministry "who have an admitted or established allegation of sexual abuse of a minor against them." ...
"We may have to be asking, what did the cardinal know and when did he know it?” said Leonard Norman Primiano, a Roman Catholic and chairman of the religious studies department at Cabrini College in nearby Radnor, Pa. He described the mass suspension as “astonishing."
At a minimum, the scope of the suspensions underscored the grand jury's contention that the archdiocese had failed to clean house after a grand jury report in 2005 found credible accusations of abuse by 63 priests. And it suggested that potentially, predatory priests had had access to thousands of children for years.
Philadelphia is one of few jurisdictions that decided to investigate. And found widespread pedophilia combined with possible coverup by three Cardinals. That for only one archdiocese. Philly region and multiple more archdioceses. Are the others innocent? Of course not. But most prosecutors do not have the balls to go after reason for most corruption. Its not a question of pedophilia in your region. The question is how many and why are your prosecutors not investigating an organization where the crime was either covered up or ignored at the highest levels probably everywhere.
Knowing that pedophilia still exists, the Cardinal insisted it did not. Then had to stop the coverup when a more honest institution - the government - forced then to be honest.
How major is this story? Even Fox News on 8 Mar 2011 reported it for the first time. Well, the Fox article was as short as possible - only 7 paragraphs. And without any mention of the other Grand Jury report that Fox had completely ignored.
If 85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management, then what does that say about god? God and Fox would pretend it does not exist?
From the NY Times of 8 Mar 2011:
(snip)
If 85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management, then what does that say about god? God and Fox would pretend it does not exist?
Heeheee. God and Fox both believe in Fair and Balanced. ;)
God and Fox both believe in Fair and Balanced.
According to business law, a priest is an agent for god. When he is doing pedophilia in the name of god, well, that is what he meant by "let's get down to business".
Can he be accused of an "illegal cont[SIZE="1"]r[/SIZE]act"?
An ewwwlegal contract, certainly.
From the NY Times of 25 Jul 2011 is the Catholic Church all but openly encouraging pedophilia. Never forget that this Church has also ordered it disciples to impose Church doctrine onto all American laws and citizens. To even promote a hate of gays. And will not even apologize for its political agendas. Promoting such hate is how extremists obtain power.
Vatican Recalls Ambassador to Ireland Over Abuse Report
The government report, conducted by an independent investigative committee and released July 13, found that clergy in the rural Irish diocese of Cloyne did not act on complaints against 19 priests from 1996 to as recently as 2009. More damningly, it said that the Vatican had encouraged bishops to ignore child-protection guidelines adopted by Irish bishops in 1996 that included “mandatory reporting” of abuse to civil authorities.
The report caused a firestorm in Ireland, a country long dominated by the church. For the first time Irish lawmakers aimed their ire at the Vatican directly, and not at local church leaders.
It is no accident that the Catholic Church in Philadelphia was doing same; to basically protect pedophiles at the expense of others.
The prime minister told Parliament last week that, “The rape and torture of children were downplayed or ‘managed’ to uphold instead, the primacy of the institution, its power, standing and ‘reputation.’ ” Mr. Kenny added that the Vatican had not listened “to evidence of humiliation and betrayal” with compassion but had instead chosen “to parse and analyze it with the gimlet eye of a canon lawyer.” The Irish parliament also passed a motion denouncing the Vatican’s role in “undermining child protection frameworks.” ...
The Cloyne Report is Ireland’s fourth on the pedophilia scandal since 1994, when the government fell over the state’s failure to confront a known pedophile priest. But it is the first to point a finger directly at Rome. It cited a confidential letter by a former Vatican ambassador to Ireland who said the child-protection policies adopted in 1996 violated canon law and dismissed them as “a study document.”
The report said that letter “effectively gave individual Irish bishops the freedom to ignore the procedures” and “gave comfort and support” to priests who “dissented from the stated Irish church policy.”
Cardinals in Philadelphia did same. One was not prosecuted due to Alzheimer’s that impeded his ability to defend himself. The current Cardinal has been removed. Let's not mince words. Because he was exposed by grand juries of all but encouraging pedophilia. His closest advisors on this issue were arrested for protecting pedophiles.
Most DAs in America are not doing their job - opening grand jury investigations of their local dioceses. This is not a local problem. This is a world wide attitude created at the highest levels of the church. If for no other reason, because the Church cannot be bothered to address it. If Satan exists, he also lives in Vatican City.
From the Cardinal on 10 Feb 2011:
Which is spin for "the Archdioceses has successfully protected pedophiles from prosecution". So that Cardinal is doing his job.
A Philadelphia priest (Lynn) is on trial for protecting pedophilia. An archdiocese lawyer apparently was fired by the Church because he asked too many questions. He testified that protecting pedophilia may have been known even by former Cardinal Bevilacqua. And known by many top church officials, including other Bishops, when all claimed they knew nothing of that pedophile list. A cover up has been ongoing in the Philadelphia archdiocese for a decade when Philly District Attorney Lynn Abraham was openly trying to prosecute. Back in 2002, investigator notes repeatedly reported rumors of the list that was later found in a Bishop’s safe in 20006. The Cardinal ordered those lists be shredded.
Why are so many other District Attorneys not prosecuting a nationwide pedophile ring? Never forget that the Pope has ordered American Catholic politicians to impose Papal doctrine into American laws.
From the Philadelphia Inquirer of 14 May 2012:
Archdiocesan lawyer: Church leaders lied to me about secret list
The top lawyer for the Archdiocese of Philadelphia testified Monday that church's leaders lied to him when he asked them a decade ago about a secret list of 35 area priests suspected of sexually abusing children.
"Everyone I spoke to said they didn't know where it was, and they didn't have a copy of it," the lawyer, Timothy Coyne, told jurors at the landmark conspiracy and clergy sex-abuse trial against Msgr. William J. Lynn.
He added: "Somebody lied to me - or a lot of people lied to me." ...
The list, and who knew about it, has become a central mystery as the trial against Lynn begins to wind down.
Prosecutors contend that Lynn, as secretary for clergy, drafted the list in 1994, and that it proves he allowed priests to remain in active ministry around the archdiocese despite knowing or suspecting they would abuse minors. Lynn’s lawyers said it proves he was trying to identify and take action on abusive priests.
At Bevilacqua's direction, all copies of the list were shredded except for one found in a locked safe in the archdiocese’s Center City offices in 2006. A separate memo detailing the shredding was found in another safe in an office previously occupied by now Bishop Joseph Cistone. Both were turned over to investigators this year, weeks before trial.
Not long after, Coyne was suspended from his job as director of legal services.
Repeatedly noted was a list released by Lynn Abraham and published by the Philadelphia Inquirer of priests known by the Church to be pedophiles. Lynn Abraham made another important point. Pennsylvania laws makes prosecuting of pedophiles all but impossible.
Meanwhile, let's never forget that Joe Paterno was fired because prosecutors did not investigate and prosecute a known pedophile.
Tw would like us to believe he never crabs at anyone or anything that isn't "extremist" in his eyes.
I read your little prediction up-thread, tw. Consider it unfulfilled.
I read your little prediction up-thread, tw.
You can read? Thomas Barnett will appreciate learning that you got past chapter two.
Racketeering in pedophilia means other corruption and questionable practices are being exposed in the Catholic Church. The Church is one of America's largest employers at 1 million. And a major contributor to charity. But its money is so vast that the majority of funds that reconstructs Vatican City comes from the US. Probably 60% of Vatican funds come from the US.
Most states in America still have laws that all but protect pedophilia. The few who changed laws include California and Delaware (adjacent to the Philadelphia Archdiocese that was proven to be protecting pedophiles). As a result, courts have now discovered massive fraud or outright financial mismanagement in dioceses in CA and DE.
For example, priest pension funds are commingled into accounts also being used to lobby state legislatures to not change the pedophile laws. Bishops are now "suppressing" parishes to transfer parish funds to a diocese that would otherwise face bankruptcy. Diosceses need those funds to settle civil court judgments for protecting pedophiles. Otherwise they must open their books to bankruptcy proceedings.
St Ann's Parish in Wilmington DE was wiring money to a Mellon Bank account specifically to keep funds away from the diocese account in Citizens Bank. To keep money even in a separate state.
Since the church is not required to submit to audits, then funds are being diverted from use intended by donors to frustrate creditors with legitimate claims including nuns and priests. So questionable are Church finances that the US Treasury forced all US banks (ie JP Morgan) to close all Vatican accounts. The San Diego special investigation found priests removing major funds from banks and storing them in the rectory safes - to keep money from pedophile victims.
Documents leaked by the Pope's Butler (and probably many high Vatican officials) suggest this fiscal irresponsibility goes well beyond negligence. That fraud at the highest levels may be routine.
Civil suites have resulted in $3.3 billion in settlements for pedophilia. We know that if the church had to pay the equivalent of what Penn State was fined, then the settlements probably would exceed $700 billion. That addresses a national debt that needs to cut $1trillion over ten years.
Only eight dioceses (including San Diego, Tuscan, and Milwaukee) have filed for bankruptcy; forcing them to open their books. Only 10 states (Arizona, Illinois, New York, Florida, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Colorado, Ohio, and California) are considering laws to make pedophilia prosecutable. Hawaii recently passed reforms. The diocese of Honolulu may be applying for bankruptcy due to a court decision in May. Other diocese are estimated to be spending from $100,000 to over $1 million a year in lobbying to stop pedophilia law reform. CA passed reforms. Then found pedophilia so rampant as to now be considering further reforms.
We know GM claimed profits ($tens of millions) by simply shorting their pension funds ($billions). Same has been ongoing in the Boston archdioceses from 1986 to 2002. Boston even ran a special charity drive that raised between $70million and $90 million only for clergy retirement funds. Even that money never went into pension funds. Even Satan does not short his employee pension funds?
Wilmington DE surrendered its entire $77million pension fund to a pedophile case it quietly settled in February 2011. So why are shenenigans acceptable? First, the Church is not regulated by the Employee Retirement Income Security Act. Clergy has no legal recourse to protect themselves or their pensions from a Church exempted from responsibility. Estimates say 75 to 80% of clergy retirement funds are underfunded. By a Church that is inventing new income streams (see muni bonds below) and is still suffering increasing debts - even while most pedophilia cases cannot be prosecuted.
Who is the largest owner of Manhattan real estate? The Church. That is also actively manipulating the books to hide their assets. As exposed by a special commission created by a San Diego judge. She was so "vexed by this and other shenanigans on the part of the diocese that she ordered a special investigation into church finances" - The Economist. As a result, the church suddenly found $200 million. If not, the bishop, chancellor of the diocese, and its lawyers all faced contempt charges. After all, the purpose of the Church is to protect its top management. god said so.
In Wilmington DE, a judge said parishes have the right to sue the diocese for breach of fiduciary duty. Fiscal responsibility in the Wilmington diocese was just as questionable. However what clergy will sue his employer. After all, just down the road from The Cellar, Sister Strange was fired from a Catholic run home for boys because she reported on continuing sexual activities of a priest assigned there after the Church 'cured' him of pedophilia. Why would any priest sue when his training and future employment is 100% defined for and determined by the Church?
Prosecutor are reporting frustration. Obviously church finances are irresponsible - probably fraudulent. But whistle blowers will not step forward for obvious reasons. Its like asking a hit man to blow the whistle on those who put out the contracts. He would have no job and no retirement funds.
Another trick. An insurance policy is an asset. To hide money, the Catholic Mutual Group sells the insurance. CMG policies are setup to not be an asset in bankruptcy proceedings. Another trick used by the Church to hide funds from their victims.
Philadelphia is the only jurisdiction that has actually gone after the source of pedophilia - the church itself. Most all claims against the church have only been civil suits. Philadelphia not only published the Church's list of known pedophiles (none can be prosecuted in Pennsylvania). "In March the former chief financial officer of the archdioceses of Philadelphia was arrested and charged with embezzling more that $900,000 between 2005 and 2011. Hundreds of priests have been disciplined for taking more than a little "walking round money"... " This was after Lyn Abraham should have put the fear of god into that archdiocese. But then, such investigations and prosecutions also do not scare the mafia. Another racketeering operation.
Now the Church is using State and Municipal bonds to finance their increasing debts. How can a religious institution use government bonds? This is now permitted in 50 dioceses in 30 states. In part, because the same 'powers that be' that have refused to reform pedophile laws have also deemed many church assets as government or public-sector projects. "Local and Federal authorities are loth to investigate mainstream religious groups for fear of the political consequences." Catholic institutions have raised $12 billion through municipal bonds this past decade when George Jr said it was good for government to contribute to religious institutions.
"In one case, in San Jose, the money went to buy chancery offices for the bishop." - The Economist.
Why do so many entertain their emotions rather than view facts. This was asked in another thread. Why is pedophilia all but legal? We who are emotional will ignore the widespread criminal activities of Church institutions. After all, its a Church. So we feel it must be good - despite decades of evidence to the contrary.
Well, not all diocese may be this corrupt. We only know about the few who were exposed because pedophilia forced public scrutiny. We also know the Philadelphia Archdiocese is only exposed because Philadelphia prosecutors had balls. This is not an honest institution. How corrupt? We don't know. Church institutions are protected even from private audits. The institution just in America is so large that it should be audited by one of the big four accounting firms. Because so many of us feel rather than make demands based in facts, then the Church could easily be one of the largest criminal enterprises in America. Having even condoned pedophilia and having all but ten states refuse to reform the laws.
What states have laws that all but protect pedophiles? What are these laws? Should I post this as a demand based in fact?
What states have laws that all but protect pedophiles? What are these laws?
Lynn Abraham, DA from Philadelphia, subpoenaed Philadelphia Archdiocese records. Published the names of about 100 priests in 2005 known by that diocese to be pedophiles. In many cases, these same priests were relocated to other assignments where they would be in contact with kids. Abraham then bluntly noted that PA State law made it impossible prosecute any priests.
Or from the Washington Post on 22 Sept 2005:
The scathing, 418-page report vents the grand jury's frustration that it was unable to indict anybody. It says there is clear evidence in church files that Krol, who died in 1996, and Bevilacqua, who retired two years ago, "enabled and excused" abuse by transferring accused priests from parish to parish without warning parishioners or informing police.
Among the priests they protected, the grand jury said, was one who raped an 11-year-old girl and then took her in for an abortion, and another who groped a teenage girl while she lay immobilized in traction in a hospital bed after a car accident.
"But the biggest crime of all is this: it worked," the report said. "The abuser priests, by choosing children as targets and trafficking on their trust, were able to prevent or delay reports of their sexual assaults, to the point where applicable statutes of limitations expired. And Archdiocese officials, by burying those reports they did receive and covering up the conduct, similarly managed to outlast any statutes of limitation. . . . We surely would have charged them if we could have done so."
And this was reported how many times all over the country? And this was posted how many times in The Cellar?
At what point is this not racketeering?
so,
Most states in America still have laws that all but protect pedophilia.
means statutes of limitations?
NY Times
JOHN ELIGON and LAURIE GOODSTEIN
9/7/12
Kansas City Bishop Convicted of Shielding Pedophile Priest
KANSAS CITY, Mo. — A Roman Catholic bishop was found guilty on Thursday
of failing to report suspected child abuse, becoming the first American bishop
in the decades-long sexual abuse scandal to be [COLOR="DarkRed"]convicted of shielding[/COLOR] a pedophile priest.
In a hastily announced bench trial that lasted a little over an hour, a judge found the bishop,
Robert W. Finn, guilty on one misdemeanor charge and not guilty on a second charge,
for failing to report a priest who had taken hundreds of pornographic pictures of young girls.
The counts each carried a maximum penalty of one year in jail and a $1,000 fine,
but Bishop Finn was sentenced to two years of court-supervised probation.
The verdict is a watershed moment in the priest sexual abuse scandal
that has plagued the church since the 1980s.
Bishops have been eager to turn the page on this era and have put in place
extensive abuse prevention policies, which include reporting suspected abusers
to law enforcement authorities.
[COLOR="DarkRed"]But the Kansas City case has served as a wake-up call
to Catholics that the policies cannot be effective if the bishops do not follow them.[/COLOR]<snip>
Another.
A Joliet-area priest removed from ministry over an allegation of sexual abuse has been reinstated because his alleged relationship with a teenager in the 1970s did not meet the criteria of a crime under church law at that time, according to the Joliet Diocese.
Kansas City Bishop Convicted of Shielding Pedophile Priest
If American DA finally start prosecuting, will Vatican City become a sanctuary for pedophiles? How many kids live in Vatican City?
How many kids live in Vatican City?
(
age of consent: 12)
They've just been carrying on tradition.
Sounds like he went from the 'kiss of life' to 'third base of life.'
(age of consent: 12)
As much as I can be considered anti-Vatican, your link suggests nothing of the sort:
While the Vatican State has not made its own complete separate criminal code, and generally uses the Italian criminal code that was in effect at the time of the Lateran Treaty, there are exceptions to this rule. The "Law of the Source of Law" of the Vatican State requires that any Italian laws must first defer to divine law, to Papal decrees, and to canon law. As the Vatican understands divine law, all sex outside of marriage is illicit, and therefore the only lawful consent that may be made for sexual relations is the consent between a husband and a wife. Canon 1083 of the 1983 Code of Canon Law states that "A man before he has completed his sixteenth year of age and a woman before she has completed her fourteenth year of age cannot enter into a valid marriage." Thus, assuming the couple is married, the minimum age of consent for lawful sexual relations according to Vatican law is 14 for females, and 16 for males.
The perils of
wikipedia.
As a result, the age of consent is 12, like in Italy 1924/1929.
From the Washington Post of 5 Feb 2014:
The committee condemned church doctrine that it views as out of step with the principles of human rights and child welfare. In blunt language that was a sharp departure from the polite wording so often embraced by diplomats, the committee took particularly aim at church stances on sexual orientation, reproductive health and gender equality.
“While also noting as positive the progressive statement delivered in July 2013 by Pope Francis, the Committee is concerned about the Holy See’s past statements and declarations on homosexuality which contribute to the social stigmatization of and violence against lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender adolescents and children raised by same sex couples,” the report said.
Sister Mary Ann Walsh, spokeswoman for the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, said “anyone bringing attention to the problem [of sex abuse] is moving toward solving it.” But she strongly criticized the U.N. report for weaving issues like contraception and abortion into the report.
“Unfortunately they weakened it by throwing in the whole kitchen sink,” she said Wednesday. “Those are culture war issues. Sex abuse isn’t a culture war issue – it’s a sin and a crime.”
Of course, who in this church is speaking for which interest group? Pope Francis is firing or reassigning significant numbers of Vatican officials for obvious reasons. The Church has long been suspected of laundering money for the Mafia. Made more obvious by a man hanging by the neck from a London bridge. The Pope recently removed four of five Cardinals in charge of Vatican bank - all having been promoted by previous Pope Benedict. Benedict also has a history of ignoring (in essense condoning) pedophilia even as the head man on this issue during John Paul II's reign.
Bishops are upset because the UN addresses human rights violations that are acceptable in Church doctrine. "How dare they condemn our doctrine" is the response from some Bishops and Cardinals. Real question is, "How dare those clergy protect and condon human rights violations against children." The report only discusses all those issues related to children's human rights.
The report goes beyond pedophilia. It discusses human rights violations against children that also includes gender stereotyping, and attacks on children whose family might even contain LGBT members.
... the right of children to freely express their views constitutes one of the most essential components of children’s dignity and that ensuring this right is a vlegal obligation under the Convention, which leaves no leeway for the discretion of the [Vatican] States parties.
Children freely expressing such goes against current Church doctrine.
The Committee recommends that the Holy See assess the number of children born of Catholic priests, find out who they are and take all the necessary measures to ensure the rights of these children to know and to be cared for by their fathers,
Why should the UN even have to mention this? Priests taking responsiblity should be obvious.
The report moves on to address violence, abandonment, torture, corporal punishement, sexual exploitation and abuse, and other human rights violations of children by the Church. These are all but condoned by both Canon Law and Vatican Law. Specifically cited are the Magdalene laundries in Ireland. No wonder church spokesmen are so distressed after doing almost 20 years of ignoring a previous UN report.
... a code of silence imposed on all members of the clergy under penalty of excommunication, cases of child sexual abuse have hardly ever been reported to the law enforcement authorities in the countries where such crimes occurred
Report pedophilia and the Church will excommunicate you? Why can I not get on Nixon's and the Church's enemies list? Apparently I am too evil.
Of course, the Pope is not all powerful. He can only change so many things. He has inherited a church long condoned for many human right violations. It even protected pedophiles - as Lynn Abraham (Philadelphia DA) proved a decade ago and Seth Williams proves again only last year. Also blantantly exposed in a bankruptcy and prosecution of the LA dioceses. A Pope can only do so much. His latest effort was major - the removal of all but one Cardinal in the Vatican bank. Even the US is investigating the Vatican bank as a major money launder.
From the report:
While being fully conscious that biships and major superiors of religious institutes do not act as representative or delegates of the Roman Pontiff, the Committee nevertheless notes that subordindates in the Catholic religious orders are not bound by obedience to the Pope in accordcane with Canons 332 and 590. The Committe therefore reminds the Holy See that by ratifying the Conventions, it has committed itself to implementing the Convention not only on the terriroty of the Vatican City State but also as the supreme power of the Catholic Church through individual and institutions placed under its authority.
Many in the church have long denied this responsibility; therefore all but condoning human rights violations.
The UN's initial observations of human rights violations were made in 1995. UN is citing and criticizing almost 20 years of insufficient progress by the Church. However one can suspect the UN is empowering this new Pope for a massive house cleaning. This Church contains major power centers that have protected corruption. After 20 years of doing almost nothing, major changes not seen since Pope John XXIII (1960) may be happening.
For 20 years, multiple Popes did nothing; all but condoned corruption. Only one worst example of Church doctrine has been pedophilia.
They've known about the problem, in the Vatican, for decades. Even had a special commission set up to study it, headed by a leading Cardinal. This was done by the last Pope, not the current one, btw.
The decision made was "we're going to fix this"... by doing as little as possible, whilst sweeping it out of the media.
Tragic to see the EXTRA damage they have wrought on their own congregation's kids, and on the institution of the church itself.
They've known about the problem, in the Vatican, for decades. Even had a special commission set up to study it, headed by a leading Cardinal.
Which 'they' and which Cardinal? What happened to the report? Was that what the Pope's Butler was leaking to reporters?
Which 'they' and which Cardinal? What happened to the report? Was that what the Pope's Butler was leaking to reporters?
Pope John 23rd knew about the problem. He had Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani, Secretary of the Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office, send out an official notification of how these cases should be handled.
Ottaviani was the most powerful Cardinal at that time. This was in 1962, and John 23rd was in his last year as Pope.
In 1983, Cardinal Ratzinger and others pushed through a revision to the Church law, explicitly including sex with minors, as a serious crime. Ratzinger was a very powerful Cardinal (later, Pope Benedict 16th). It wasn't until the scandal was circling the globe in 2001, that Pope John 2nd finally called it a serious crime ("grave sin"), and reinforced the position of the church that all such crimes should be reported to the local authorities.
2002 - Background checks for priests in the US only, required by the Church.
2005 - Pope Benedict accused in Texas, of covering up a case of church sex with minors. George Bush and others, helped exclude the Pope, from the lawsuit.
Check out "Vatican Responses" section here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases
for much more info. They tell you what the Vatican did, but don't tell you what the Vatican didn't, do, to correct this problem. For instance, if background checks were needed to help fight the problem in the US, why weren't they used in Australia, Philippines, Ireland, UK, and (perhaps), globally?
The Vatican denied it was a serious problem, for far too long. Then they denied it was a problem anywhere else except in the US and maybe Canada. Then it blew up in their faces, globally. I doubt if the Catholic Church will ever recover what it has lost.
I doubt if the Catholic Church will ever recover what it has lost.
I think you're correct. The church is pretty much over except in Africa where its policies smell like radical islam.
The church is pretty much over except in Africa where its policies smell like radical islam.
What do you mean by 'over'. Over as in dead? Or over doing a cover up and protection of people who promote hate?
Apparently the Vatican has recently released historical details of Pope Pius reign during WWII. It discusses support for Mussolini (for Vatican political reasons) followed by regret and inaction as Mussolini and Hitler became close friends.
Have similar historical facts been released by the Vatican for Pope John XXIII? Is that why (or if) details about Ottaviani recently become available?
Was any of this pedophilia problem part of so many leaks by Pope Benedict's butler?
The questions remain unanswered when it should cause major news stories and discussion.
I am amazed how nobody is commenting about widespread and condoned pedophilia by the Catholic Church in ...
An Italian prosecutor has, essentially, warned this Pope that he could be targeted for assasination ... if not something else. The widespread pedophilia all but openly protected by the Archdiocese of Philadelphia and essentially permitted by a Pennsylvania State Legislature for at least 10 years is only a tip of an iceberg. An institution so corrupt that it would have no problem electing Richard Nixon as a Saint.
Routine money laundering recently exposed when one top church official was caught trying to sneak 20 million Euros to what was probably secret accounts in Switzerland. May explain, in part, why US regulators empowered by a government not bought and paid for by the rich is heavily prosecuting or restricting six largest Swiss banks (see the latest stories about Credit Suisse) for money laundering.
Why did the Pope's Butler leak documents so detailed that even Wooodward and Bernstein could only wish they had seen similar during their investigations? And after he was caught and sentenced, how or why was this Butler released with all benefits (ie Pensions) restored?
Most of the Curia (those who actually run the church) are probably some of the world's greatest white collar criminals. Corruption is said to be in every leadership position. But a guerilla war may be ongoing. With dangers that may make tame Lukid's successuful calls for murder of their own Prime Minister. Insurgents apparently got the Pope's ear after he had previously thrown them out without listening. His Butler's leaks (see Vatileaks) and a mild public outcry apparently made Pope Benedict realize he is only a puppet of a powerful crime institution. Or he may have realized it was time to get out while looking innocent; leaving other to be accused.
Benedict previously appointed a top manager to the Vatican Bank. Corrupt Cardinals in the Curia literally fired him with contempt. The Pope was never told. He learned of it much later on Italian TV news. Corrupt leadership is that massive and that powerful.
No accident is that seven dioceses adjacent to Philadelphia ignored Catholic church sponsored pedophilia. Refused to prosecute or even investigate. No accident is that Pennsylvania lawmakers refused for ten years to create laws to permit prosecution of pedophile priests. Even refused to pass laws after government protection of Sandusky (by PA DA Corbett) was exposed. The church has that much power, in part, because so many are so brainwashed as to endorse religious beliefs rather than what is their obligations as humans. Catholics, like all humans, are responsible for being informed.
Frontline confirmed what The Economist and UN defined as high level corruption. But Frontline makes the extent of that corruption vast. It was no accident that a church bank official was found hanging by his neck dead from a London bridge. Nobody was prosecuted or even suspected for the crime. An institution now suspected so corrupt that virutally every major nation's banking system has put Church transactions under investigation.
Do not blame all. Otherwise you might encourage deaths by friendly fire. There exists a major insurgency. Meanwhile, every Catholic should be apologizing for being part of a world wide criminal organization that may be the world's largest crime family. Apologizing if not previously publically critical of a crime family headed by a father, son, and holy ghost (is that their hitman?).
Active sex parties may be routine especially in and around Vatican City. Frontline shows video from these parties. Only summarized is a small part what Fronltine presented:
Secrets of the Vatican Preview and
Secrets of the Vatican or
PBS .
From CBS New of 20 April 2014:
How much change can Pope Francis bring to the Catholic Church?
"The change in the image of the papacy and the Vatican throughout the world" in one year, ... "is nothing short of remarkable."
But a church riven by internal conflict and laboring under the shame of its priestly child-abuse scandal ... is still waiting to see what substantive changes this "Pope of the People" might bring.
"So the question comes up then: what's changed really?" asked Phillips.
"Nothing," Father Dodaro replied, "unless you think style is a lot more important than content -- and a lot of people do." ...
Still, Francis has raised expectations of change in at least one area -- the complex theological quagmire of the Church's response to Catholic couples who divorce and then re-marry. It is anticipated that they might be accepted back into the Church.
"That's the expectation, yes," said Father Dodaro.
Will it happen? "I don't know," he said. "Pope Francis wants this debate to take place. That's remarkable in itself."
... Radical reform of Church doctrine is not what they had in mind when they chose Francis.
Longtime writer on Church affairs Massimo Franco thinks the popular view of Francis as a potential reformer may be based on wishful thinking. ...
Already there is grumbling that Francis doesn't understand how the Church's powerful administrative structure -- the Roman Curia -- really works; that he doesn't value the Cardinals who run its various departments or appreciate the work they do. ...
"These cardinals who are working in the Roman Curia are seasoned Church bureaucrats," ... "So there's pushback, yes. Now, is that significant? I think not. You'd have to be naive to think you were going to come in and reform the Roman Curia and everyone was going to applaud you."
How much change can Pope Francis bring to the Catholic Church? ...
Depends on how large his collection basket is.
Your intense interest suggests you're thinking of becoming Catholic tw. As a layperson; or, as a priest? Father Tom, has a nice ring to it. You could work your way up the totem pole and make reforms. In return, they'll make you a saint!
To become a saint, one must perform three miracles. That means spending an entire life learning how to perform magic tricks. After death, they study your life. If they cannot ascertain how three tricks worked, then one becomes a Saint.
From CBS News:
John Paul II was put on the fast track of a process that usually takes decades, if not centuries.
In response to chants of "Santo Subito," meaning "make him a saint now" at John Paul II's funeral, Pope Benedict XVI dispensed with the mandated five-year waiting period for the work on proving sainthood to begin.
He was not a good magician. For example, he failed to make pedophiles disappear. So they are making an exception to the 'miracle rule'. Politics are more important than truth.
From the NY Times of 24 Aug 2014:
For Nuncio Accused of Abuse, Dominicans Want Justice at Home, Not Abroad
It was only after he was spirited out of the country, the boys say, his picture splashed all over the local news media, that they learned his real identity: Archbishop Jozef Wesolowski, the Vatican's ambassador to the Dominican Republic.
The case is the first time that a top Vatican ambassador, or nuncio - who serves as a personal envoy of the pope - has been accused of sexual abuse of minors. It has sent shock waves through the Vatican and two predominantly Catholic countries that have only begun to grapple with clergy sexual abuse: the Dominican Republic and Poland, where Mr. Wesolowski was ordained by the Polish prelate who later became Pope John Paul II.
It has also created a test for Pope Francis, who has called child sexual abuse “such an ugly crime” and pledged to move the Roman Catholic Church into an era of "zero tolerance." ...
But far from settling the matter, the Vatican has stirred an outcry because it helped Mr. Wesolowski avoid criminal prosecution and a possible jail sentence in the Dominican Republic. Acting against its own guidelines for handling abuse cases, the church failed to inform the local authorities of the evidence against him, secretly recalled him to Rome last year before he could be investigated, and then invoked diplomatic immunity for Mr. Wesolowski so that he could not face trial in the Dominican Republic.
The Vatican’s handling of the case shows both the changes the church has made in dealing with sexual abuse, and what many critics call its failures. When it comes to removing pedophiles from the priesthood, the Vatican is moving more assertively and swiftly than before. But as Mr. Wesolowski’s case suggests, the church continues to be reluctant to report people suspected of abuse to the local authorities and allow them to face justice in secular courts.
Is this Pope really in control. He has made blanket statements about excommunicating the mafia and ending pedophilia. But changes have only been minor; more like SNAFU (situation normal, still all fucked up).
From the NY Times of 24 Aug 2014: ... It was only after he was spirited out of the country ...
Well there you go, that explains it right there, the Holy Ghost made them do it: it was an act of God. Not even the Pope stands in the way of acts of God.
... the Holy Ghost made them do it: it was an act of God.
I always wondered what this Holy Ghost did. They would not discuss it is Catechism class as if it was a secret. The Holy Ghost is God's CIA.