Toyota stop sale
Toyota Recalls 2.3 Million Vehicles Over Sticking Accelerator Pedal
A new recall announced today by Toyota includes approximately 2.3 million Toyota cars, trucks and SUVs. No Lexus or Scion models are included. The recall is to fix accelerator pedals that become stuck and lead to severe accidents. This recall is separate from the 4.2 million vehicles recalled over floormats trapping the accelerator pedal. Toyota says 1.7 million vehicles are included in both recalls.
Below is Toyota’s explanation as well as the models affected.
“The condition is rare, but can occur when the pedal mechanism becomes worn and, in certain conditions, the accelerator pedal may become harder to depress, slower to return or, in the worst case, stuck in a partially depressed position. Toyota is working quickly to prepare the correction remedy.
"In the event that a driver experiences an accelerator pedal that sticks in a partial open throttle position or returns slowly to idle position, the vehicle can be controlled with firm and steady application of the brakes. The brakes should not be pumped repeatedly because it could deplete vacuum assist, requiring stronger brake pedal pressure. The vehicle should be driven to the nearest safe location, the engine shut off and a Toyota dealer contacted for assistance.”
Model included in the recall:
• 2009-10 RAV4
• 2009-10 Corolla
• 2009-10 Matrix
• 2005-10 Avalon
• 2007-10 Camry
• 2010 Highlander
• 2007-10 Tundra
• 2008-10 Sequoia
This isn't good for anyone. We had a stop sale on the altima in 05 or 06...one car....and it was a nightmare. This is huge.
they can't even sell the used ones.
This could be a Mega Ballsy Move on their part , After this is thru have a Ernest Looking Dude say some thing like " We found out there was a serious Problem so we Pulled ALL the affected Product "because WE CARE SOOOO Much for YOUR Safety !!!!"
Speaks of concern for the well fare of the Public over Company Profits
The kicker is that the don't even know what's causing the problem or how to fix it!
and every drunk that wrecks his Toyota will be jumping on this bandwagon.
they also put a hold on new
toy yodas, i hear.
The recall is part of a major change in Toyota. Whereas Toyota was well above GM in quality, Toyota quality had fallen significantly below what any automaker (with responsible management) should have been doing.
The recall is but an iceberg tip. Wantanabe apparently was a problem for Toyota. Toyoda took over. Observed is a perfect example of what happens when better management finally lets employees address problems and implement solutions. Why were Pintos exploding and burning passengers alive? Because the problems was identified before even the first Pinto was sold – and stifled by Henry Ford.
Fuel injection works by monitoring vacuum inside the throttle chamber. If a mechanical linkage opens the throttle plate, then an engine (fuel injectors, et al) responds by burning more fuel - suck more air to increase vacuum. This was how it was done when Germans were putting this old technology in German WWII Messerschmitts in the 1930s.
The problematic Toyota design has a new design; electronics controlling that plate.
Anyone who understands computers also understands Watchdog timers. Too many engineers who only understand software can subvert an essential electronics device. Subvert that Watchdog timer. Testing cannot detect such mistakes. Another example of ‘quality by management’ concepts taught by Deming. If management did not do their job, for example, then a critical feature required in any realtime computer system would not protect from catastrophic failures.
This watchdog timer example demonstrates many design functions that cannot be detected and averted if management failed to provide the necessary attitude and knowledge. One example of why a very few products would do something completely unacceptable. And why this problem is virtually impossible to identify in a mechanical autopsy.
That recall is a symptom of what happens when new management addresses pre-existing management failures. Same should be happening in Chrysler today. Nothing here says that has happened. Only that symptoms imply a new management in Toyota has finally let engineers look for or implement solutions.
what color is your Accord?
Every car on the road that has properly working brakes, can be stopped with the engine running at full throttle... every car.
Drop it into neutral apply breaks and walla...
walla. lolla
voila, ya mook.
but then your motor blows from over revving! not really.....but...just turn the fucker off. and then what?
plus, there's this thing called "Neutral" that comes in handy once the surprise has subsided a little bit. A clutch is even better, if you have one.
walla. lolla
voila, ya mook.
but then your motor blows from over revving! not really.....but...just turn the fucker off. and then what?
Call the dealer and tell them their defect just blew up my car come get it and fix it.
there's the rub. do the dealers....once they figure out HOW to fix them.....fix customer cars or inventory of unsold cars first?
you know which they'll WANT to do first....
Yea, I heard it on the news. Pissed me off since my dau drive a '10 Corolla and I drive a Tundra. But what cha going to do, they have us by the nads, and we can't control it.
Anybody else immediately start thinking about the recall math scene from Fight Club? That was Fight Club, right?
Yes
[COLOR=Indigo][SIZE=3][SIZE=2][SIZE=2]Narrator: "A new car built by my company
leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The
rear differential locks up. The car crashes
and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now:
should we initiate a recall? Take the number
of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the
probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the
average out-of-court settlement, C. A times
B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost
of a recall, we don't do one."
Business woman on plane: "Are there a lot of
these kinds of accidents?"
Narrator: "You wouldn't believe."
Business woman on plane: "Which car company do
you work for?"
Narrator: "A major one." [/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR]
there's the rub. do the dealers....once they figure out HOW to fix them.....fix customer cars or inventory of unsold cars first?
I suspect we are talking about weeks before any solution is implemented in serious numbers. And we still do not even know what this solution is. Did they really fix a problem? Or just move / reshape the pedal? A solution that will easily take many months just to get going on a large scale.
I've seen a couple different opinions of what causes this issue..... one says the floor mats get tangled up with the pedal, and another says the drive by wire throttle position sensors are faulty........
sounds like a boogie man scenario......
Yea, they sent me the floor mat boogie man memo, I went out an looked at mey truck. No fucking way that my matt could get caught under the pedal. I think they were reaching at that point for a simple solution. The new one will obviously be much more expensive.
I wonder it's the same problem the audi 5000 had. That would be ironic.
I wonder it's the same problem the audi 5000 had. That would be ironic.
The audi 5000 was clearly drivers stomping on the gas pedal. Then claiming they were pressing the brake pedal. Even a Consumers Report investigation and video made that obvious.
This Toyota problem is different. In one crash, the brakes literally melted.
The audi 5000 was clearly drivers stomping on the gas pedal. Then claiming they were pressing the brake pedal. Even a Consumers Report investigation and video made that obvious.
Yes. I know.
In one crash, the brakes literally melted.
Didn't know that. Is there a link?
..... one says the floor mats get tangled up with the pedal, and another says the drive by wire throttle position sensors are faulty........
Or a spring on the pedal sometimes does not push the pedal back up. Or ... I have read everything I could find. Nobody (with responsible knowledge) is even suggesting what is the problem OR what the Toyota pedal solution solves.
We now get to learn how Toyota manufacturing works. Years ago, at the only source of brake cylinders - that plant burned down completely. Using concepts taught by Deming, Toyota literally had a sewing machine manufacturer completely trained in Toyota production techniques and manufacturing brake cylinders in three days. Toyota supplies do not win contracts only on price.
This pedal is made only in northern Indiana. Only the more informed news services will discuss how Toyota got production changes implemented AND expanded to meet demands. Obviously that is proprietary information - except where better new services are asking that sidebar question.
Didn't know that. Is there a link?
I hadn't heard that either, but just
found this.
"In the accident that has drawn perhaps the most publicity, a 2009 Lexus ES 350 raced through San Diego, weaving at 120 miles an hour through rush-hour freeway traffic. Veteran California Highway Patrol officer Mark Saylor was at the wheel, with his wife, teen-age daughter and brother-in-law aboard.
"We're in trouble. ... There's no brakes," Saylor's brother-in-law told a police dispatcher over a cellphone. As they approached an intersection, and the end of the road, the passengers could be heard urging each other to pray. All four died.
Afterward, investigators said that it appeared the brakes had been applied for so long that the brake pads melted, according to a report by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.
Didn't know that. Is there a link?
To the Audi and Toyota problems? Or a URL? I have so many sources that I cannot remember which ones reported on that one crash and the melted brakes.
And BTW, one would be completely devoid of basic driving techniques to not know how to put a car into neutral or switch it off (without the steering wheel locking up). For those who do not know how to do this, well, even after thirty years of driving, I still learn a new driving technique. Most who learn how to drive have only started to learn what should be common knowledge - such as how to put any moving car into neutral.
Same is why drivers go to snowy parking lots. Get up a little speed and spin the wheel. Every driver should have a feeling for how that car spins out - and how to control it. Even a parking brake is a steering tool when one finally learns basics.
Fact that so many have suffered death due to this ‘failure combined with little driving knowledge’ implies how much larger the problem actually may be.
But the OP story says
A new recall announced today by Toyota includes approximately 2.3 million Toyota cars, trucks and SUVs. No Lexus or Scion models are included.
Yeah, I'd be putting it in neutral or downshifting with the tiptronic thing long before the prayers...
what color is your Accord?
Green. :p
Same is why drivers go to snowy parking lots. Get up a little speed and spin the wheel. Every driver should have a feeling for how that car spins out - and how to control it.
Cruisin with tw in a snow covered parking lot - Now THAT sounds like a good time. :p
Every car on the road that has properly working brakes, can be stopped with the engine running at full throttle... every car.
Yeah, well that don't work so good when you drop your 40 and the bottle rolls under the brake pedal...:eyebrow:
That's OK, those people deserve to die.
http://www.dailyfinance.com/article/toyota-hopes-media-blitz-will-reassure/882812/
The company has said the recall of about 4.2 million cars and trucks is related to condensation that builds up in the gas pedal assembly and can cause the accelerator to get stuck. Dealers say the fix involves slipping a shim into an area where springs push the gas pedal back to its resting position after a driver has eased off the gas. Toyota has not commented on the repair.
The Truth About Cars details the pedal assembly that is experiencing too much friction:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/toyota-gas-pedal-fix-explained-with-exclusive-photos/Why don't they use the pedal they use in the Lexus and Scion? Why the fuck do they have a different pedal in the first place? I don't believe them. :headshake
cost? Are they made at the same plant? Does that matter?
(not a car guy)
Why don't they use the pedal they use in the Lexus and Scion? Why the fuck do they have a different pedal in the first place?
First, the traditional fuel injection uses a throttle plate connected directly to the pedal. This pedal controls the throttle plate electronically.
Another untroubled Toyota pedal design comes from Denso. This pedal is manufactured (and therefore designed) by CTS in Indiana.
But again, Toyota demonstrated why the problem existed. Wantabe was removed long ago. Toyoda then said Toyota has many serious problems. You have again seen an example of why that failure probably existed so long ago and was ignored. Reports of this problem existed long before it became news worthy. To get the problem fixed, apparently Toyota has to replace the reason why that problem (and others) was being ignored. 85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management.
While we're mook-ing, I'm calling mook on you, tw. Less than thirty seconds of Googling would have gotten you
Watanabe's correct spelling. You did not make even this minimal effort, and you come up short.
Language is not your first language.
While we're mook-ing, I'm calling mook on you, tw.
Just another example of wacko extremists attacking a centrist because hate is his only objective. Rather than discuss the topic, his political agenda says he must post another cheap shot. As if Cheney and Limbaugh, et al rhetoric did not do enough damage to civility and informed discussion ...
did someone say . . .
Just another example of wacko extremists attacking a centrist because hate is his only objective. Rather than discuss the topic, his political agenda says he must post another cheap shot. As if Cheney and Limbaugh, et al rhetoric did not do enough damage to civility and informed discussion ...
Bosh, son: I am Middle America, and you are fringe. Read your own posts and mine to see how fringy your thinking is, and how regular mine is.
You're a whiner, too. Babyish, as the above quote shows. Your entire personality is designed to keep anyone from taking you seriously. That should by rights include you. My political agenda is also manifestly superior to yours, and always has been since the day I came to the Cellar. You should adopt something better, and develop human, liberty-minded values while you are at it. Until then, you are highly defective
regardless of your politics. Your inability to copyedit, and inability to conceive of copyediting, acts to undermine you. You have zip attention to detail, and your incapacity with any and all languages is a shame to you. Prostrate yourself and beg forgiveness of the entire English-speaking world, and then spell correctly, ultra-megadolt. Including Watanabe, which ain't but Smith in Japanese.
Hello Mr. Pot. I'd like to introduce you to Mr. Kettle.
Hello Mr. Pot. I'd like to introduce you to Mr. Kettle.
Stoke the fire. What results is more exciting.
Read your own posts and mine to see how fringy your thinking is, and how regular mine is.
:lol2::rotflol::haha:
You do not have actual cause to laugh, Sam. I defy you to prove you have anything to support so silly an opinion. I don't think you've got anything real.
Pete, howdy, and you have no visible room to talk either. I am vehement in the cause of good and of virtue -- and of smarts. What are you vehement in the cause of, that would contrast with these?
:lol::lol2::rotflol:
It's the dead-pan delivery that makes it so good.
Stoke the fire. What results is more exciting.
Not really trying to stir things up, but I certainly don't see UG as centrist. Does anyone?
Besides UG.
"O would some power the giftie gie us to see ourselves as others see us."
Oh, the entire board is populated by extremist left wing pinkos and UG is the sole voice of reason and sanity. :rolleyes:
Urbane Guerilla - you know - the voice of reason.
Not the entire board, Sam... I am not the stupid fellow your stereotyped thinking requires, but something altogether more challenging to your regrettable prejudices, which are likely to come out in any philosophical wrangle. The short way to say it is that I can't be as stupid as you need me to be -- you'll have to settle instead for something real and thoughtful. Admittedly, I'm unlikely to always be considerate; it's a flaw.
Nor am I to cast myself as the sole voice of reason and sanity. However, being possessed of both faculties -- perhaps to your disappointment, perhaps not -- I do voice them. "Come, my songs, let us speak of perfection -- We shall get ourselves rather disliked."
Are people still drivin these things?
this is why i stay out of the politics forum. the sexual tension between UG and tw is freaking me out.
Come over here, Jim, and let me put my finger in your ear.:condom:
Urbane, has anything you've said here got anything whatsoever to do with the situation under discussion? Or is it just a random attack on your arch enemy for the appalling crime of not spelliing something correctly? Maybe even an excuse to engage in a little more self-mythologising?
I was finding this thread surprisingly interesting. I don't normally find anything about cars interesting.
This morning I heard that Toyota apparently knew about the braking issue with the Prius, fixed the problem for the newer cars, but never told anyone about the issues on those cars already sold - nice, real nice.
I think this goes on with all car companies, but now that the spotlight is on Toyota, they will be getting hammered for a while until the media's attention shifts elsewhere. We're going to be seeing more similar stories about Toyota for a while.
Already happening, Glatt. There was a report on NPR earlier in the week that they are now looking into a number of reports of problems with brakes.
It was Obama's and the Deomcrat's fault.
Come over here, Jim, and let me put my finger in your ear.:condom:
that's not my ear!!On a lighter note... VW says they won't be running any sales to take advantage of Toyota's problems, and the companies that are running promotions, are predatory. :rolleyes:
VW, huh? Let's turn the spotlight on THEM now.
If the biggest car company has a massive safety issue, I wouldn't think that any of the others would need to run any sales.
As an aside, what I've heard about the Prius brake problems sounds a lot like something I had in my old '98 Chevy Cavilier.
@ Sam: I lol'd, heartily.
I think they should serve up some compensation for being incompetant
That's OK, those people deserve to die.
The people they kill don't. :(
I think they should serve up some compensation for being incompetant
All these problems were created during or ignored by Watanabe management. So we immediately ask a simple question. Does he have a driver's license? A question too often never asked because many auto executives are that destructive.
We know Toyoda took power. And then announced Toyota has major and serious problems. Announced long before these (and probably other problems) were known.
So who is Watanabe? Educated as an economist. Spent his entire carrer working in Toyota management - often in strategic planning. Did not work where the work gets done. As best I can tell, is not a car guy. Sounds so much like Rick Wagoner and Nardelli of Chrysler.
Long before Toyota's problems were known, Toyoda (in early 2009) said major problems exist. Watanabe's reign created the first Toyota not on Consumer Report recommended list - the full size Tundra. An entire production line (in San Antonio?) was manufactured with defective crankshafts (that snap). About $4000 of labor and parts to repair. That early 2007 'discovery' may have been one of the earliest indications that Toyota had serious management problems directly traceable to top management. A man who never worked where the work gets done.
how much of this is blown up hype? does the government's interest in GM and Chrysler have any influence on their treatment of Toyota?
On the contrary, it's the press that's been hyping this. They've also bitched the government hasn't hyped enough.
My gut tells me it's about 85% hype.
Considering the number of Toyotas on the road, compared to the number that have experienced a problem, minus the number that just pushed the wrong pedal, the odds are pretty small of this happening to you.
BUT, having raised a couple of generations that don't know how to drive, haven't got a clue as to how a car actually works, and expect everything to be automatic so they don't have to make a decision, any problem becomes a big deal.
Do away with automatic transmissions, power steering, power brakes, and half the population couldn't get to the fucking supermarket. :rolleyes:
...BUT, having raised a couple of generations that don't know how to drive, haven't got a clue as to how a car actually works, and expect everything to be automatic so they don't have to make a decision, any problem becomes a big deal.
:eek: How
old ARE you?!?!
Do away with automatic transmissions, power steering, power brakes, and half the population couldn't get to the fucking supermarket. :rolleyes:
The battery went dead in my key and it wouldn't unlock my car door when I hit the button. I actually panicked for a sec...
:eek: How old ARE you?!?!
I'm 65... a generation is 20 years or less. A couple of generations would be like, born after
1970. :eyebrow:
I'm with Bruce. Keep me standard transmission, 4WD where you get out and lock in the hubs, windows that you roll down yourself, and ignition keys that don't talk to you. All the fancy shit now adays is just that much more to go wrong. And my fav song is still "Sugar Magnolia" - jumps like a Willy's in 4 WD!
I'm 65... a generation is 20 years or less. A couple of generations would be like, born after 1970. :eyebrow:
I never really thought of generations moving along that quickly. Im thinking your generations procreated while on the youngish side.
I've had to lock my doors by pushing the lock on the door for so long that now that I have a remote, I forget to use it. I'm trying to make it a habit to lock it remotely, so that I can't accidentally lock my keys inside. I have a spare that unlocks the door, but can't use it to turn on the car (something about a chip in the real key). Problem is, that it is in my purse, so if I lock my purse, keys, and cell in my car, I'm totally screwed. Which I have done, just with my less technologically advanced car. I didn't know I had my mom's cell phone number memorized, so it was a damn good surprise when I dialed the right number using someone else's phone. I still had to wait 4hrs before she could get me my spare key though.
take a bit of wire, and put a loop through the key.....then put it behind your license plate and hook it through one of the extra holes back there.
I've had to lock my doors by pushing the lock on the door for so long that now that I have a remote, I forget to use it. I'm trying to make it a habit to lock it remotely, so that I can't accidentally lock my keys inside.
That 'lock the key inside' was a common problem with all GM products. Even the original Honda's made that problem not possible. If you locked the driver's door, then shut it, the door would unlock.
Unfortunately that solution no longer exists with Hondas. Now you can accidently lock yourself out of a Honda.
One problem I have seen with remotes. The remote in a pocket gets pressed. The locked car then remains unlocked. A problem made worse by the range of that remote.
You can also get an extra valet key, cut away the plastic, and put it in your wallet. Without the head, it's hard to turn, and without the chip it won't start the car, but it's good for when your key's locked in the car.
I never really thought of generations moving along that quickly. Im thinking your generations procreated while on the youngish side.
In 1940 the age at first birth was 23.0 years. It dipped downwards to 21.5 in 1960 and was at 25.2 in 2004.
Do away with automatic transmissions, power steering, power brakes, and half the population couldn't get to the fucking supermarket. :rolleyes:
Manual steering and manual brakes just take more muscle, not more smarts.
But the whole Z family can drive a stick (Mrs. Z and I prefer manual transmission). Z-let 2 has not taken her driving test yet, but Z-let 1 took her test in the Honda (manual transmission) and the guy who gave her the drivers test was amazed.
Manual steering and manual brakes just take more muscle, not more smarts.
It takes more ATTENTION.
@Bruce -
I see...it was a mental block on my part.
I'm childless, but if I had had one at 20, and then they had one when they turned 20, their child would be getting their drivers license right about now. Its hard to think of my age in those terms....
Im getting old...:eek:
Manual steering and manual brakes just take more muscle, not more smarts.
I prefer how a Honda drives (steers) without engine assist. The power steering adds almost near zero to cars with better designed steering systems. Earlier Accords had zero power steering when the car moved. The larger (full sized) Accords have near zero steering assist. So little difference that when the engine is off, steering difference slight.
Power steering is necessary for under 5 MPH manuevering - ie parallel parking - at least in better designed vehicles.
Power assisted brakes? Without it, then locking up the brakes would be diffcult on all full sized cars.
Do you still have brakes if the engine powers off? Everyone should know that. If a critically important check valve fails, then you lose all brakes. And the only time you would learn about that failure is by testing. Go to any open parking lot. Turn off the engine. You should be able to fully apply brakes at least three times - and still have power assist. You will not if that valve has always been defective. If you do not do that test, then you would never know about the failure until it was too late.
Power steering is necessary for under 5 MPH manuevering - ie parallel parking
Helpful, anyway. The car I learned to drive on had no power steering at any speed.
I am not sure this is as big a deal as people and the news are making it out to be. Obviously the public is responding as I don't think anyone is buying a Toyota right now. An NPR report stated the other day that over 10 years there have been 19 confirmed deaths from this issue with the acceleration and or brakes. You have a greater risk of being eaten by a bear or struck by lightening. I will be looking for a chance to take my truck down and get a brand new one when they start offering deals to get people to buy again. I would definately buy a Toyota again. Over 95% of them are still on the road after 10 years. Yea, they are still a good auto/truck company.
Helpful, anyway. The car I learned to drive on had no power steering at any speed.
Last year my roommates car had no power steering and I considered it an upper body workout to get out of tight spots in the snow.
But driving without power steering really makes you more aware of what you are doing. You cannot mindlessly take curves and are forced to even be aware of correcting yourself to drive in a straight line.
Honda Motor Co. is adding 437,000 vehicles to its 15-month-old global recall for faulty air bags in the latest quality problem to hit a Japanese automaker.
The company will replace the driver's side air bag inflator in the cars because they can deploy with too much pressure, causing the inflator to rupture and injure or kill the driver.
Japan's No. 2 automaker originally announced the recall to the U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration in November 2008 and the total of number vehicles recalled since then is approaching 1 million.
The latest expansion of the air bag recall includes 378,000 cars in the U.S., some 41,000 cars in Canada and 17,000 cars in Japan, Australia and elsewhere in Asia. The North American recall was announced Tuesday and followed Wednesday by the recall in Asia.
The recall now affects 952,118 vehicles, including certain 2001 and 2002 Accord sedans, Civic compacts, Odyssey minivans, CR-V small sport utility vehicles and some 2002 Acura TL sedans.
Honda said it is aware of 12 incidents linked to the problem -- one death in May 2009 and 11 injuries. The company said it is not aware of any problems happening after July 2009.
Link
New technology is to replace mechanical controls with electronics. Now understand the problem. Every digital logic circuit is logic One when above a certain voltage. And logic Zero when below. Between those two levels is an undefined reason (because everything in the world is ternary). So that noise does not cause confusion, any signal in 'no man's land' means logic stays at its old value. Then noise does not cause failure.
Well, sort of. All noise is statistical. Therefore all noise will eventually cross that 'no man's land' threshold. We calculate the probability. So that your PC is reliable, that noise threshold might be achieved once every (maybe) 1000 or 10,000 years. No problem for you. A major problem for Toyota with so many millions of cars.
Described earlier is one method to avert disaster - see watchdog timer discussed earlier. And a problem. There really is no way to test for proper implementation of that watchdog timer. Quality (as taught by W E Deming) says quality must occur at the design level. That means top management must implement, enforce, and understand how that can be accomplished OR if it is being accomplished.
Mechanical designers did not have to be so careful. Now that brakes, accelerator pedals, windows, power steering, etc are all partially or fully electronically controlled, then software interfacing with hardware means everything Deming taught is even more important. Means that understanding even that above statistical fact is essential to reliable design.
How does one test for a failure that happen almost never - such as the throttle pedal? That is what every automaker has confronted. Every automaker has suffered the same problems in other variations before Toyota. But this time the problem was bigger news - probably because one event was so newsworthy.
Ford's problem with Firestone (now Bridgestone - they changed the name so that you would forget how many they killed) was so trivial and obvious compared to Toyota's. Ford eventually discovered Firestone knew they were killing people, lied about fixing the tires, and then denied the problem existed. In that case the problem and its solution was trivial simple.
Well, Toyota's problem has a similar story line. Toyota knew the problem (and some others) existed. But top management stayed in denial mode. We are now seeing new Toyota management trying to deal with a problem that existed maybe in 2003. And have only been at trying to eliminate it (and other problems such as the Prius braking software) for a year.
Trying to identify the transistor among millions that might be too susceptible to statistical noise failure when it only happens to a few of millions of vehicles. And the failure leaves no electrical history of the failure. Toyota has a major challenge. If I understand the problem from details in so many stories, I believe the accelerator pedal will not be (or may be only one minor) reason for failure. Appreciate why bad management means a statistically rare problem can make the solution almost impossible to find. And why missions (such as Apollo) did not have such problems because management understood what the engineers were saying. Therefore could avert problems before death resulted (ie Apollo 13).
Engineering and management techniques once good enough for mechanical brakes or Bridgestone tires is no longer sufficient in today's world of Deming quality, six Sigma, millions of transistors in each car (every car currently has about 50 motors), and world wide news.
Excellent explanation, tw. I knew you had it in ya. :thumbsup:
http://www.toyota.com/recall/
did they ever figure out what went wrong?
Nope - they are probably too worried about the Corolla's power steering issues and another possible recall.
Linkeverybody who has ever had a problem with a Toyota raise your hand.
I'll wait.
No problems here. We are on our third in this family. Granted my dau's first one did get wrecked with 6k on it and now she has 2010, but still. My truck is three years old, not a single issue. Not even a rattle.
*hand raised*
...but it was kinda my fault. I let the tank go to nearly empty too many times and clogged the fuel filter inside it, which caused a problem somehow and it wouldn't drive. Had to get a whole new something-or-other which cost $500 or so. This was way back in the 80's when I was driving the '76 Corona. Back then, the Jap cars didnt get a lot of respect, though.
Pico, I think the statute of limitation's run out on that one. :lol:
If I were going to buy a car right now, I would give serious consideration to a Toyota. Some pretty good deals out there, I bet.
If I were going to buy a car right now, I would give serious consideration to a Toyota. Some pretty good deals out there, I bet.
Take it one step farther. As great and stable companies, Toyota and Honda have long been poor investments. They have been too stable. At best, you would only meet the S&P or Dow Jones averages.
View Toyota stock sales during the recall notices. The spike is massive. Paniced investors were selling.
So when is the best time to buy? You must determine at what point all the bad news is out. For example, the accelerator pedal may cost $70 per vehicles to replace. That is a $billion write off that has not yet appeared on spread sheets (because spread sheets report events long after it really happens).
Dealers may be desperate to make the sale. But I doubt it. Right now, they are fully employed by Toyota just upgrading existing new and already sold models. And the supply was cut off on some models as it took tiime to manufacturer new pedals.
But investment possibliities are good. Too many invest on silly emotion rather than appreciate the real value of that company. Maybe 10% or 20% are so pathetically foolish as to react to the news. That is a buying opportunity.
However the buying opportunity is so obvious as to not be as profitable as it might be. Those are the judgements that only you can put numbers to.
Written by The Economist (10 Dec 2009) about five months after Akio Toyoda took control of Toyota.
Mr Toyoda had been reading “How the Mighty Fall”, a book by Jim Collins, an American management guru. In it, Mr Collins describes the five stages through which a proud and thriving company passes on its way to becoming a basket-case. First comes hubris born of success; second, the undisciplined pursuit of more; third, denial of risk and peril; fourth, grasping for salvation; and last, capitulation to irrelevance or death.
But Mr Toyoda claimed that the book described his own company’s position. Toyota, he reckoned, had already passed through the first three stages of corporate decline and had reached the critical fourth. According to Mr Collins, fourth-stage companies that react frantically to their plight in the belief that salvation lies in revolutionary change usually only hasten their demise. Instead they need calmness, focus and deliberate action.
Is Toyota really in such dire straits? And if it is, can a company that for decades has been the yardstick for manufacturing excellence turn itself around in time?
meanwhile, in the batcave.......
Stewart Stogel, 49, of Mount Vernon, N.Y., said his 2009 Camry accelerated to about 15 mph on a street near his home on Saturday, five days after a dealership trimmed the gas pedal and installed new brake override software as part of the floor mat recall. The car didn't stop for several seconds even though he pressed on the brakes. Stogel said he barely avoided going down an embankment and hitting a wall.
"At first the brakes didn't engage at all," said Stogel, a freelance journalist. "Just as I approached Terrace Avenue, the wheels were able to get some traction, and all of the sudden the engine did disengage."
Stogel said the car had accelerated two previous times, and both times Stogel said he took it to dealerships to be checked. In one case it was inspected by a Toyota corporate technician who could find nothing wrong, he said.
After the latest incident, Stogel called his dealer, who told him to return with the car. He also left a message with Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. President Jim Lentz. On Tuesday, Stogel's dealer called and asked him to return with the Camry so Toyota engineers can inspect it.
Carolyn Kimbrell, 59, a retired office assistant in Whitesville, Ky., said her 2006 Toyota Avalon accelerated last weekend as she pulled up to her mailbox near her home — about a week after the car had been fixed. Kimbrell had just returned from a shopping trip to the mall with her 9-year-old granddaughter.
Kimbrell's car dealer on Feb. 20 inserted a small piece of metal into the gas pedal mechanism to eliminate friction that was causing the pedal problems. The dealer is scheduled to provide a separate fix to prevent the accelerator pedal from becoming trapped in the floor mat. But now Kimbrell said she wonders if the company's fix will solve the problem.
"It just scares you," Kimbrell said. "If I had been trying to stop at a busy intersection, that would have been bad."
Toyota on Tuesday said its U.S. sales fell 9 percent in February but it would offer repeat buyers two years of free maintenance to help rebuild customer loyalty.
LinkAfter the latest incident, Stogel called his dealer, who told him to return with the car. He also left a message with Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. President Jim Lentz. On Tuesday, Stogel's dealer called and asked him to return with the Camry so Toyota engineers can inspect it.
I should think the dealer would flatbed it in, so they could check it before it changed, unless he drove home before calling them?
That 'lock the key inside' was a common problem with all GM products. Even the original Honda's made that problem not possible. If you locked the driver's door, then shut it, the door would unlock.
Unfortunately that solution no longer exists with Hondas. Now you can accident[all]y lock yourself out of a Honda.
AFAIK Volkswagen still idiot-proofs their driver's doors with that feature. The lock button will disengage if the driver uses it and then shuts the door. You have to leave by some other door to lock the keys in the car. AAA has a card-key gizmo for getting back into your car; it's like a thick credit card, you keep it in your wallet. At need, pull it out, flex the plastic key out of the plane of the card, get in your car.
Honda Motor Co. says it is recalling about 410,000 Odyssey minivans and Element small trucks because of problems with the brake pedals.
The recall includes 344,000 Odysseys and 68,000 Elements from the 2007 and 2008 model years.
Honda says the brake pedals can feel soft to drivers and must be depressed closer to the floor than usual before the vehicles will fully stop. The condition worsens over time but affects only some of the vehicles.
The company says the problem happens because a part in the stability control system can let a small amount of air into the braking system.
Honda says owners should take their vehicles to a dealer as soon as they get notification from Honda. Letters will go out at the end of April.
Link
Now its Honda's turn . . .
Can they do anything else to make GM's look more attractive?
glatt predicted this would keep going and affect other carmakers.
Speaking as a firmware engineer, I have been waiting for this sort of computer-initiated failure for a looooooong time. It's not mechanical; it's the almost mystical capability for computers, sensors & computer code to interact in a non-reproducible, non-deterministic fashion. We call it 'emergent behavior'.
Acceleration problems likely are caused by numerous factors, said Ingolf Krueger, a professor of engineering and computer science at the University of California San Diego. “It’s possibly an entire sequence of events that has to come together for the conditions to actually occur,” he said. “There are literally millions of possible combinations for these signals.”
When your computer blue-screens, you can reboot it. (Ask lj.) When your car
insists that nothing is wrong and refuses to be rebooted, while doing 90mph down the interstate... well then, you're screwed.
CAVANAUGH: I’m interested, when you’re trying to find a mechanical problem, you know, you can do a crash test or you can do a stress test, how do you find a problem in the software?
DR. KRUEGER: That’s a very deep question. So, you know, there are many things we actively do in our software, whether it goes into the car, and I have colleagues at the computer science department who are working specifically on finding bugs in software. What do you do? You actually – you can test it but you can also work with tools that check every possible state of the system it can be in. Whether it is in a valid state or whether it’s in a state that will lead to a failure. And, you know, there are computer science researchers who are developing these tools to actually do these checks very efficiently. It’s very complex because you have 80 electronic control units who all can interact with one another, so the number of possible states the system can be in is – it explodes and so you have to apply strong mathematical reasoning to find these errors.
Then add the fact that mathematical modeling cannot possibly encompass everything that might happen to your particular car -- crosstalk on cables, manufacturing irregularities,
cosmic rays fer chrissakes! Battery levels, failing alternators. Squirrel nests.
I think I better buy a bicycle. :tinfoil:
"Can't be reproduced" is what they always say to me the first time something fucks up in my jeep. I don't think they try very hard.
It would be helpful if the media, you know, told people how to stop a car that was having this happen. The media is happy to get all breathless saying how terrible these incidents are, but I haven't heard anyone say to just switch it into neutral, pull over, stop, and turn it off.
I can understand parking lot accidents where there isn't time to react before hitting anything, but some dude on the highway who can't stop his car is incompetent.
Glatt -- they have tried this. The car 'believes' it is not in drive, and won't respond to the shifter. Since everything is computer controlled (steering, gas, brake, transmission), there is no direct way for the operator to force the car to stop. :worried:
If, however, the problem is mechanical (stuck gas pedal or floor mat jammed) this will work just fine.
Glatt -- they have tried this. The car 'believes' it is not in drive, and won't respond to the shifter. Since everything is computer controlled (steering, gas, brake, transmission), there is no direct way for the operator to force the car to stop.
If that's the case, then why does Toyota's recall fix this by mechanically adjusting the gas pedal?
Because they're in denial, and can't afford to track down all the code problems. They're hoping people will go away mollified and won't sue. It's called the placebo effect.
Are you basing what you are saying on the ABC/David Gilbert test where they rigged a car to suddenly accelerate by doing very specific things to the wiring? If so, I thought that had been generally
debunked.
Or are you talking about something else?
I didn't realize transmissions in cars were controlled by wire these days, but I'm out of my element there, driving an older model manual transmission car.
Are these computers different than those in other makes? Do they all have their own brand of computer or is this more of a systemic problem?
In the Prius, the transmission is electronic, not mechanical.
Glatt, I was referring to the
San Diego story from last week, though that's shaping up to be uncreditable.
Your 'debunking' article also has this conclusion:
In no way does any of this exonerate Toyota with regard to a potential software problem. It's too early tell if a errant black box is the cause and we still have no evidence one way or the other on this count. This also doesn't discount the possibility of some other electrical (such as electromagnetic interference) or mechanical problem that we aren't aware of at this time. So the mystery continues...
Toyota stands to lose billions if they don't control the spin of this story.
Drivers Complain That Toyota's Fixes Didn't Work
At least 15 Toyota drivers have complained to U.S. safety officials that their cars sped up by themselves even after being fixed under recalls for sticky gas pedals or floor mat problems, according to an Associated Press analysis.
The development raises questions about whether Toyota's repairs will bring an end to the cases of wild, uncontrolled acceleration or if there may be electronic causes behind the complaints that have dogged the automaker.
Yeah, Toyota is certainly biased. No argument here. But so is the media. They are desperate for profits, and nothing sells papers or tv advertising like a good scandal.
Why is this not happening in other countries?
Are these computers different than those in other makes? Do they all have their own brand of computer or is this more of a systemic problem?
Every automaker has its own computers. GM used a stripped down variation of the Motorola - forgot if it was the PowerPC or 68000. Many of the early problems because GM used a measuring standard that was different from Motorola and other semiconductor industry benchmarks.
Ford used a customized design from Intel. One of the computers I once tried to design with was the Intel 80196 - a variation of the computer also found in Fords then.
It always amazed me. Japanese automakers used computers about as powerful as the computer inside every keyboard. GM used a more powerful computer equivalent to that in Apple computers. So Japanese engines therefore had superior control and performance. Go figure.
One feature finally appearing in cars is the CAN bus - pioneered by Intel, if I remember, in the 1980s. It finally begin appearing because Japanese automakers tend to use stifled American innovations ten and twenty years later.
"Can't be reproduced" is what they always say to me the first time something fucks up in my jeep. I don't think they try very hard.
From someone who clearly has expensive experience solving problems: most difficult part is getting someone to tell the truth or who simply know only because they 'feel'.
NPR's Car Talk (Klick and Klack - the tappet brothers - Tom and Ray) constantly ask this question on their show. Is the check engine light on? Most everyone cannot bother to tell them that *critical* fact. Routine is for so many users to withhold critical information because the *know* it is not important. Or simply know advice is wrong because they 'feel'. Is that person emotional or logical? That unanswered question makes problem solving most difficult.
Your
computer problem - in my very first reply, execute the manufacturer's comprehensive hardware diagnostic. Since you did not like it, then you all but insulted me. What was wrong with your computer? Apparently it is failing again because that diagnostics was not executed; to see the problem before it caused complications. Despite generations of experience with computers and disk drives, instead you knew I must be wrong? 318 posts later, that problem still exist? Just another example of what Toyota is going through.
All who solve problems confront this 'the' most difficult part of solving problems. Even the TV show House identifies it: "Everyone lies". What makes solving problems most difficult? Why are these Toyota problems so hard to diagnosis. Because so many people do as you did with me. Entertain feelings and biases rather than deal with and provide facts.
To only complicate it further, the San Diego driver apparently was trying to scam Toyota. Accelerating and then applying brakes - both extremely hard - well over 250 times. Being obnoxious, then Dr House deserves high praise. Because so many routinely lie.
In Audis, drivers just 'knew' they were hitting the brakes. Finally a video tape from Consumers Reports(?) showed exactly what was happening. The driver that 'knew' he was pressing the brake was pressing the accelerator to the floor. Again, what makes problem solving so difficult? Humans who know only because they feel - and therefore lie or deny.
Ford Explorers murdering people because Firestone Tire lied for years at the highest levels of management. Now call themselves Bridgestone so that you will protect and encourage them. How many died simply because Firestone (Bridgestone) lies to everyone for years - so that the problem need not be solved. So that more will die. In every case, the most difficult part to a solution is humans who lie or who know better than others. Who entertain their feelings rather then get nasty and therefore respect facts.
Unfortunately too many need spin rather than the nastiness that attacks the only enemy - the unknown. Too many worry about themselves rather than honesty and reality. So, who is lying?
So what you are saying is that in EVERY single case, the drivers would have to be doing the EXACT same thing EVERY SINGLE time.
That is a great way to solve a problem in a controlled environment, but it doesn't work that way in the real world. People are not robots and they don't all behave the same way every time. They have different strengths, personalities and driving habits.
To attempt to make some sort of assertion that every one of these people had to do the exact same thing as every other one is ludicrous.
Are they all lying or do they really not know and are trying to remember as best they can? Are they making assumptions? Well I always do this, therefore thats what happened that day... When in reality they may have done something different and do not know or realize it.
Your computer problem - in my very first reply, execute the manufacturer's comprehensive hardware diagnostic. Since you did not like it, then you all but insulted me.
Who are you talking to? You quoted me, but I never insulted you. Your 'help' consisted of telling me that I bought the wrong brand of laptop, and what I needed to fix it didn't exist. That's not help, that's just being an asshole (oh! there's that insult you were looking for), nothing you said was helpful. Trying to say "I told you so" at this point is just retarded.
From someone who clearly has expensive experience solving problems:
What the hell are you talking about? My jeep is under warranty and nothing has been spent yet on the vaio. Buying a new hard drive isn't gonna break the bank.
Clearly, you think you know, but you just don't know.
Your 'help' consisted of telling me that I bought the wrong brand of laptop, and what I needed to fix it didn't exist.
Another and perfect example of Toyota's problem. I never said any of that. But jinx has somehow concluded things not stated.
Stated: more responsible computer manufacturers provide comprehensive hardware diagnostics - for free. If the manufacturer is less responsible, then a diagnostic must be downloaded from the disk drive manufacturer.
How does a less responsible computer manufacturer somehow become 'the wrong brand'? It doesn't if reading only what was posted.
How does 'download diagnostic from the disk drive manufacturer' become "didn't exist"? Same disk drive diagnostic was later discovered also on the same Ultimate Boot CD web site. A failing disk could have been identified at the start if following proper diagnostic protocol. But the biggest problem is always a human.
Demonstrated again is Toyota's biggest problem. And why facts must be 'filtered' through a communications major - must be 'politically correct' rather than 'technically honest'. Too many people only hear what they want to hear (apply emotions to every statement) rather than work only with the facts.
As people get older, they just know 'hidden messages' exist where none do. This compounds into propaganda, myths, and outright lies. Just another reason why the most difficult problem in addressing problems is a wild card - the human. And Toyota's most complicated issue to a technical solution.
Stated: more responsible computer manufacturers provide comprehensive hardware diagnostics - for free. If the manufacturer is less responsible, then a diagnostic must be downloaded from the disk drive manufacturer.
Some advice from an ex-communications major: Sentence number one is irrelevant. If you start with irrelevant advice, no one will bother listening long enough to get to the relevant advice. Sentence number two is convoluted and over-generalized. Might as well have said, "You have a problem? Download some stuff to fix it." Actual advice involves specifics, such as "Go to [this link] and download [this specific program.]" You may have every bit as much knowledge on this topic as Mitch does, but we'll never know, because you're not effectively communicating it. Communication skills are important, no matter how much you want to pretend they're just "emotions."
that's my whole thing.
i said 'speak fucking english!@'
but I meant what clobble said
You quoted me, but I never insulted you.
As people get older, they just know 'hidden messages' exist where none do.
*honk honk*
I nominate Clodfobble's post for Hall of Fame... anyone seconding?
Some advice from an ex-communications major: Sentence number one is irrelevant. If you start with irrelevant advice, no one will bother listening long enough to get to the relevant advice. Sentence number two is convoluted and over-generalized.
Maybe you have completely missed the point. Jinx's reply is only a example of the topic which is why sentence one also is so relevant:
> Another and perfect example of Toyota's problem.
Meanwhile, specific links were provided in that other discussion. They could not have not been clearer - with multiple choices. Get diagnostics from the hard drive, from the provided CD-Rom, from the Sony web site, or from the disk drive manufacturer. In each case, specific links. And multiple options to make it even easier.
I have no idea what you are saying about "Go to [this link]... " because that is exactly what I did. And because that is not the topic. The topic is how humans make solutoions so complex. Or in this case, if the links are not clear, the ask for clarity.
Bottom line - you seem to think why jinx intentionally ignored me is the topic? It never was. It was a perfect example of the point. I provided 'right on' accurate procedures to identify a suspect and solution. And the only reason it was not followed is the most difficult obstruction to technical solutions - humans. Is this a discussion of that computer failure? Obviously not. And I keep saying it here for good reason. This was (and that is why the first sentence is relevant - why do you not see that?) a discusson of why Toyota's problems are made so more difficult.
I could not make the point clearer - in the very first sentence. And repeated it in the last sentence. "And Toyota's most complicated issue to a technical solution." How much clearer could I be?
85% of all problems are communication errors...
Bottom line - you seem to think why jinx intentionally ignored me is the topic? It never was.
Baloney. When you bring it up, it becomes the topic:
Your computer problem - in my very first reply, execute the manufacturer's comprehensive hardware diagnostic.
I have no idea what you are saying about "Go to [this link]... " because that is exactly what I did.
I know you know what a link is, because you frequently link to other threads in the cellar. A link is underlined, and when you click on it, it goes to a different site. You did not provide a link, you provided an instruction to go somewhere (the manufacturer's website.) Manufacturers do not put major, clear links to their diagnostic tools on their main page, thus your instructions are useless.
Or in this case, if the links are not clear, the ask for clarity.
Lumberjim said to you:
I assume the diagnostics are on a partition of that like they are on my HP. If I can't see the hard drive, how can I run those self diagnostics?
And you did not reply. Later, you came back and told jinx
Much of what you just went through would be solved (learned) immediately by the diagnostic. And again, it has at least three sources - on the hard drive, on a CD-Rom, and from the manufacturer web site. If it does not exist, well, you now appreciate why I only recommend computer that provide those diagnostics.
Translation: "Go look for this thing you don't know how to recognize. It might not be there. And if it's not, your computer sucks." Again, useless advice.
When lumberjim said, "fuck, speak english, man," your reply was "Like I said. The most difficult part of the problem is not hardware."
Everything here is written at a layman’s level. If it has useful information, then do what I always do to understand anything - read it three or more times. If you read something the first time and understand it, then it probably has near zero useful facts.
The fact of the matter is, you don't
want to communicate better. Which is your prerogative. But don't be surprised when people ignore you, and instead take advice from people who
do somehow manage to provide useful facts in simple sentences that can be understood the first time you read them.
Yeah, that pretty well sums it up...
New hard drive arrives tomorrow. Thanks to mb and jim, my old data has been saved. Happy ending.
I again bow to the almighty Clodfobble.
[quote=tw] Much of what you just went through would be solved (learned) immediately by the diagnostic. And again, it has at least three sources - on the hard drive, on a CD-Rom, and from the manufacturer web site. If it does not exist, well, you now appreciate why I only recommend computer that provide those diagnostics.
Translation: "Go look for this thing you don't know how to recognize. It might not be there. And if it's not, your computer sucks." [/quote]
Simple and honest response is, "I cannot find these normally easy things to find. Please help." Instead "fuck" was posted in reply. Which demonstrates my point. Imagine Toyota's frustration when they too are dealing with people who cannot even do simple things such as ask for clarification. Who instead reply with profanity.
Where is any word that even approaches 'sucks'? None. You invented it. If thinking like wackoman, then everything is only black or white. If 'not good', then it can only 'suck'? You said that.
OK. Consumer Reports only recommends maybe 14% of the cars. According to that wackoextremist reasoning, then Consumer Reports says 85% of all cars "suck"? That is what you have posted. Can I quote you?
Some computers suck and some computers are recommended. Then is the category that extremists must refuse to understand - a third category. In an extremist's world only "good and evil", "black and white", "recommend and suck" exist. Why are you endorsing extremism? Or are you playing games taught to communication majors?
You are (I suspect) intentionally demonstrating the problem and my original point. Toyota would be suffering this same problem due to humans doing what you have just done. Humans doing what you just did are exactly why technical solutions can be so difficult. Also demonstrated by other examples such as the check engine light, House who says, "everyone lies", San Diego Prius driver, Audis, and Firestone tires.
Imagine Toyota's frustration when they make recommendations and you reply with 'sucks' or 'fuck' interpretations. When people cannot bother to ask a simple logical question, "I don't understand". Instead only reply with "fuck, talk English man". That is always the major impediment to solving a problem.
In lumberjim's case the obviously simple topmost paragraph would have identified the problem immediately. Solution obvious. It was not done only because he did not do it; instead replied with profanity.
Humans are the greatest impediment to solving problems. Amazing how 'not recommended' gets perverted into 'suck' especially when thinking as an extremists - everything is only "black or white". Another example of why humans are a major impediment to solving problems.
Meanwhile, when one does not understand what a disk drive, CDrom, or web site is, then a civil person ask probing questions - not profanity. It demonstrated perfectly the problem Toyota must be confronting.
Toyota asking technical questions, of a man who's afraid to put his car in neutral for fear it will flip over, is a waste of time.
Toyota asking technical questions, of a man who's afraid to put his car in neutral for fear it will flip over, is a waste of time.
For real?
That's what they claimed on the tube, was the CA man's answer to why he didn't shift into neutral. But not a direct quote, and through the reporter it becomes second hand, so we can't be sure he's really that stupid. Sounds like it though.
Simple and honest response is, "I cannot find these normally easy things to find. Please help." Instead "fuck" was posted in reply. Which demonstrates my point. Imagine Toyota's frustration when they too are dealing with people who cannot even do simple things such as ask for clarification. Who instead reply with profanity.
Where is any word that even approaches 'sucks'? None. You invented it. If thinking like wackoman, then everything is only black or white. If 'not good', then it can only 'suck'? You said that.
OK. Consumer Reports only recommends maybe 14% of the cars. According to that wackoextremist reasoning, then Consumer Reports says 85% of all cars "suck"? That is what you have posted. Can I quote you?
Some computers suck and some computers are recommended. Then is the category that extremists must refuse to understand - a third category. In an extremist's world only "good and evil", "black and white", "recommend and suck" exist. Why are you endorsing extremism? Or are you playing games taught to communication majors?
You are (I suspect) intentionally demonstrating the problem and my original point. Toyota would be suffering this same problem due to humans doing what you have just done. Humans doing what you just did are exactly why technical solutions can be so difficult. Also demonstrated by other examples such as the check engine light, House who says, "everyone lies", San Diego Prius driver, Audis, and Firestone tires.
Imagine Toyota's frustration when they make recommendations and you reply with 'sucks' or 'fuck' interpretations. When people cannot bother to ask a simple logical question, "I don't understand". Instead only reply with "fuck, talk English man". That is always the major impediment to solving a problem.
In lumberjim's case the obviously simple topmost paragraph would have identified the problem immediately. Solution obvious. It was not done only because he did not do it; instead replied with profanity.
Humans are the greatest impediment to solving problems. Amazing how 'not recommended' gets perverted into 'suck' especially when thinking as an extremists - everything is only "black or white". Another example of why humans are a major impediment to solving problems.
Meanwhile, when one does not understand what a disk drive, CDrom, or web site is, then a civil person ask probing questions - not profanity. It demonstrated perfectly the problem Toyota must be confronting.
you should go and re read that thread for comprehension, sir.
I DID ask for clarification of what you meant by diagnostics:
I did get it to boot using the Ultimate Boot Disc. But, when I click my computer, it only shows a B drive(952MB) and the disc..... It's like it can't see the C drive....
I assume the diagnostics are on a partition of that like they are on my HP. If I can't see the hard drive, how can I run those self diagnostics?
you ignored that question, and in your next reply in the thread, your 3rd sentence says:
Much of what you just went through would be solved (learned) immediately by the diagnostic. And again, it has at least three sources - on the hard drive, on a CD-Rom, and from the manufacturer web site.
If it does not exist, well, you now appreciate why I only recommend computer that provide those diagnostics.
and the last sentence of that post:
Meanwhile, appreciate why I prefer companies that provide those comprehensive hardware diagnostics including Dell and HP. It makes problems so massively easier to understand. In your case, the diagnostics would have immediately said which disk drives actually existed - and not confused the help who assumed the drive had failed.
clodfobble has you sussed quite nicely. You can refuse to hear it, and harp on the fact that I said Fuck, and she said Suck.... But YOU are the one who has failed to communicate. YOU will not be hired by me if I am a customer. YOUR family will go hungry.
take the advice. learn to deal with humans instead of deriding them.
Although I've been enjoying the thread drift ...
HARRISON, N.Y. – A housekeeper who reported that her boss' Toyota Prius accelerated on its own and wouldn't brake as she hurtled toward a stone wall apparently had her foot on the gas pedal the entire time, according to a police investigation that concluded the driver, not the car, caused the accident.
The March 9 crash in a suburban New York driveway came the day after a driver in San Diego reported that the gas pedal got stuck on his 2008 Prius, resulting in a wild 94 mph ride on a Southern California freeway.
The two accidents raised new questions about Toyota's accelerators. The company had already recalled more than 8 million cars over gas pedals that could become stuck or be held down by floor mats.
But in the California case, Toyota said its tests showed the car's gas pedal, backup safety system and electronics were working fine.
And on Monday, Harrison police Capt. Anthony Marraccini said, "The vehicle accelerator in this case was depressed 100 percent at the time of collision, and there was absolutely no indication of any brake application."
The data came from the car's on-board event data recorder and computer and was downloaded during an inspection Wednesday joined by Toyota and the National Highway Safety Traffic Administration, which also concluded the car was not at fault. The event data recorder, or "black box," is designed to record the state of the car at the moment of an impact.
Marraccini said the 56-year-old driver "believes she depressed the brake, but that just simply isn't the case here." She did not try to deceive police, he said, and she faces no charges.
Toyota spokesman Wade Hoyt said owner of Priuses can feel secure that "if you step on the brake they'll stop, even if the accelerator is glued to the floor."
The company also issued a statement saying it would continue to investigate "reported incidents of unintended acceleration."
The New York driver, identified as Gloria Rosel, did not come to the door of the house where she works Monday. Calls there were not returned.
Marraccini said the car's computers showed that the Prius' top speed down the driveway was 35 mph; it slowed once when it hit a curb and it was going 27 mph when it hit the wall across the street from the driveway entrance.
The car's front end was wrecked but the driver was not seriously hurt.
The captain displayed a page from the computer readout that showed an accelerator sensor measuring 99.9 percent while a brake sensor showed zero.
A housekeeper who reported that her boss' Toyota Prius accelerated on its own and wouldn't brake as she hurtled toward a stone wall apparently had her foot on the gas pedal the entire time, according to a police investigation that concluded the driver, not the car, caused the accident.
Orly...
I wonder it's the same problem the audi 5000 had. That would be ironic.
The audi 5000 was clearly drivers stomping on the gas pedal. Then claiming they were pressing the brake pedal. Even a Consumers Report investigation and video made that obvious.
This Toyota problem is different. In one crash, the brakes literally melted.
I wrecked a car because I stepped on the accelerator instead of the brake...BUT I HAD NO MISCONCEPTIONS OF WHAT HAD TRANSPIRED. I dont get how these people can claim otherwise.
I'm sure she knows what actually happened, but she was hoping to not get blamed for wrecking her boss's car.
I wrecked a car because I stepped on the accelerator instead of the brake...BUT I HAD NO MISCONCEPTIONS OF WHAT HAD TRANSPIRED. I dont get how these people can claim otherwise.
Me too -- first accident I ever had. I was reversing out of a parking spot and hit the wrong pedal.
This was during Thanksgiving. I had gotten my license over the summer, and hadn't driven at all in 4 months. :right:
Driving her boss's car, she was probably not that familiar with it and the confusion was much more likely.
I have one pair of shoes that have soles slightly wider than the rest of the shoes I own, and when I drive with those, I sometimes have trouble with the pedals on our car.
Toyota waited months to issue '05 steering recall
Toyota waited nearly a year in 2005 to recall trucks and SUVs in the United States with defective steering rods, despite issuing a similar recall in Japan and receiving dozens of reports from American motorists about rods that snapped without warning, an Associated Press investigation has found.
The lengthy gap between the Japanese and U.S. recalls — strikingly similar to Toyota's handling of the recent recall for sudden acceleration problems — triggered a new investigation Monday by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, which could fine the automaker up to $16.4 million. That was also the amount Toyota paid last month in the acceleration case.
Link I wonder it's the same problem the Audi 5000 had. That would be ironic.
And the answer is...
..
..
..
The U.S. Department of Transportation has analyzed dozens of data recorders from Toyota Motor Corp. vehicles involved in accidents blamed on sudden acceleration and found that the throttles were wide open and the brakes weren't engaged at the time of the crash, people familiar with the findings said.
The early results suggest that some drivers who said their Toyotas and Lexuses surged out of control were mistakenly flooring the accelerator when they intended to jam on the brakes.
The initial findings are consistent with a 1989 government-sponsored study that blamed similar driver mistakes for a rash of sudden-acceleration reports involving Audi 5000 sedans.
LinkThe early results suggest that some drivers who said their Toyotas and Lexuses surged out of control were mistakenly flooring the accelerator when they intended to jam on the brakes.
I was annoyed when I heard this news report on NPR the other day. They didn't give any numbers at all. They said of all the reported incidents, "some" were cause by driver error. That's not very helpful. Was it 99% or was it more like 5%? You leave the report thinking "Well, that's that. It was the drivers' fault." When really you can't make any such statement without the numbers. "Some" is not a number. This article basically says nothing at all.
Of course "throttles were wide open and the brakes weren't engaged" is an accurate description of the symptom. If the computer is incorrectly deciding that the user wants to slam the gas, then it might dutifully write that incorrect data in the recorder.
It depends on how separate the sensors and logic for the recorder are from the sensors and logic for the controls.
I was annoyed when I heard this news report on NPR the other day. They didn't give any numbers at all. They said of all the reported incidents, "some" were cause by driver error. That's not very helpful. Was it 99% or was it more like 5%? You leave the report thinking "Well, that's that. It was the drivers' fault." When really you can't make any such statement without the numbers. "Some" is not a number. This article basically says nothing at all.
NHTSA investigation concluded that
74 out of 75 cases were due to driver error. The one remaining case was due to a faulty floor mat. ZERO percent were due to a faulty accelerator system. Heard on the Mark Levin show, no link.
no link.
Link or it never happened :3_eyes:
When are you folks going to learn that NPR is part of the problem? They want Toyota to fail so Obama Motors won't look as bad as it is.
When are you folks going to learn that NPR is part of the problem? They want Toyota to fail so Obama Motors won't look as bad as it is.
I was annoyed with NPR because they sounded like a subsidiary of Toyota. Their report sounded like it was written by Toyota's marketing department. It had no details and just spin.
But YOU are the one who has failed to communicate. YOU will not be hired by me if I am a customer. YOUR family will go hungry.
Take the advice. Learn to deal with humans instead of deriding them.
LJ, you know full well Tw doesn't know any better, never did, and has apparently been that way since birth, if not since the zygote stage. His posts tell us people skills are as much a lifelong mystery to Tw as they are to Radar. I imagine that has a good deal to do with why he is no longer employed at GM, and is directly why he is single.
This may be turning into a roshak test of government and/or the Toyota Corp.
At least attorneys will be living off of it for years to come...
NY Times article
Early U.S. Tests Find No Toyota Flaw in Electronics
By NICK BUNKLEY
Published: August 10, 2010
The government’s investigation into complaints of sudden acceleration of Toyota vehicles has found no evidence of flawed electronics in 58 of the vehicles that crashed, federal regulators said Tuesday.
<snip>
Though federal officials said the investigation was continuing and they had not yet drawn conclusions, the raw findings support Toyota’s contention that electronics were not at fault and that many of the reports of sudden acceleration might actually have been instances of human error — drivers mistakenly pressing the gas pedal instead of the brake.
Toyota has recalled nearly nine million Toyota and Lexus vehicles worldwide to correct problems involving floor mats and sticky pedals, and lawmakers and some drivers have long suggested that a malfunction in the electronic throttle control system of the vehicles might explain some of the reports of sudden acceleration.
One recorder showed that both the brake and accelerator pedals had been pressed. Toyota has said it would install a brake override system, which allows the brake to stop the vehicle even if the accelerator is pressed simultaneously, as standard equipment across its lineup by the end of this year.
I have had two Toyotas in my immediate family for a few years now, including the one my dau crashed and the new one I bought her to replace it. We all love them and have not had a single mechanical issue with any of them. I think we will stay with Toyota for the years to come. Even with the floor mat issue I never took mine in for the recall. If you look at how they are designed there is no way in hell that it could make the accelerator stick. Bla, I think it was a big to do about nothing.
This may be turning into a roshak test of government and/or the Toyota Corp.
Rorschach test?
Rorschach test?
You're right... just one of my recurring senior moments :o
Merc, take your Toyota and press both the gas and the brake at the same time. Bet it stops.
But Bruce - Toyota mgmt just said they were modifying the design so that when you depress them both the car stops .... What friggin car doesn't stop when you do that?
Since there really was no problem to begin with, the "solution" doesn't need to be "designed" either.
Does that make sense to you, Flint. There seems to be a whole ton of WTF in the last few weeks about this.
Of course it makes sense, it's the cost of public perception. Fool 'em into trusting you.
I was wondering if many companies use the same computers.
Hello! It doesn't fucking matter, the brakes will stop the car.
The article I read made it seem as though that wasn't true - hence my WTF comment.
I know that emergency brakes wouldn't stop any of the cars I've had when the gas pedal is down, but I haven't tried (and wouldn't try) the regular brakes.
Yeah, I've driven several blocks with the parking brake on, on more occasions than I care to admit.
My husband does that all the time and I panic every single time. It just feels like we are all going to explode instantaneously.
Oh, well, see that's how I feel every day starting first thing in the morning, that must be why I never notice. :)
I know that emergency brakes wouldn't stop any of the cars I've had when the gas pedal is down...
They haven't since the stopped calling them "Emergency" brakes, and started calling the "Parking" brakes, many years ago.
But unless the normal brakes are very fucked up, they will overpower the driveline. That's how drag racers with automatic transmissions get a jump start, it's called power braking.
My supercharged '57 Chevy has a Line-Loc. I push on the brakes then hold a button on the shifter handle. When I release the brakes a solenoid keeps only the front brakes locked, and I can spin the rear tires all day long... the car won't move. Oh, and those front brakes are way smaller than anything on the road today.
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