Professor Gates, Harvard's Pride
Extensively quoted by Larry Elder.
Whether the prof had had a couple before heading home or not, he was acting and talking about like he had.
I was wondering when da Cellar would comment about this.
All the guy had to do was be polite and show the cop his driver's license. But no . . . he had to fly off the handle. Conditioning, perhaps, because this is THE scholar of racism in this country, who "knew every racial incident since Jim Crow" -- so he just had to make one himself.
Even smart people can be stupid.
After seeing and listening to both of them on the TV, I came to the conclusion they are both lying. Both trying to act so innocent, it could be they are trying to start acting careers.
The cop, responding to a break in call, has no idea what kind of shit is going to go down. And don't tell me a 5' 6", 150 lb man can't fuck you up... or kill you. So he's on edge, and acting all official and badass out of fear/caution.
The prof, well know and respected in his little circles, feels the cop should take him at his word, and expects polite conversation. He gets pissed when the cop follows him into the house uninvited, even though he hasn't proven who he is or that he should be there, yet. Like the cop is going to let a still suspect just walk away, c'mon.
From there it escalates, with the prof being cocky and the cop getting more pissed at being given a hard time while risking his life to protect the prof's property, and starts acting more hardass.
And the rest is history in the making, by everyone choosing sides while the media plays it to the hilt, interviewing everyone with an axe to grind. :2cents:
Wow - Bruce. You really nailed that one. :thumbsup:
Oh, maybe a 5'6" guy could have a weapon.
Maybe the guy, in the last 4 years lived at that address (got his ID, and beat his wife and was kicked out. His License would still show this as his address, yet things still had to be checked out.
just a couple random thoughts.
Regardless of whatever else happened, both accounts state that Gates did eventually show the cop ID, at which point the cop should have been gone, and there would have been nobody for Gates to be "tumultuous" at.
I'm sick of people acting like cops are wild animals, and if you don't tiptoe around them you deserve what you get.
I wish eminent British Professors spoke like this:
As Crowley continued to question Gates, the Harvard professor allegedly told him, 'You don't know who you're messing with.' When Crowley asked to speak with him outside, Gates allegedly said, 'Ya, I'll speak with your momma outside.'
Snicker.
Bottom line, the cop did everything right, up until the moment after the prof showed proof that he lived there. Once the guy proved it was his house, the cop should have left.
There's the whole issue that cops should be polite to citizens, and citizens should be polite to cops, but that's all window dressing. I think both of them were disrespectful to one another, and the cop arrested him only because he was being a dick. No law against that though. The cop should have a thicker skin. Prof shouldn't be surprised though. If you're a dick to a cop, it's not going to go well, regardless of your skin color.
But the cop was wrong to arrest the prof.
But there's conflicting accounts of what ID he exactly showed. It says that he showed his Harvard ID--why? Do those have the address? It's not clear whether he showed his drivers' license at all, first.
Regardless of whatever else happened, both accounts state that Gates did eventually show the cop ID, at which point the cop should have been gone, and there would have been nobody for Gates to be "tumultuous" at.
If it wasn't a membership card to the Mickey Mouse Club. It would have to be a valid ID with sufficient information to convince the cop he belonged there.
I'm sick of people acting like cops are wild animals, and if you don't tiptoe around them you deserve what you get.
I don't tiptoe around cops, but I do know I'm required to cooperate with them when they are performing their official duties or they have the power to detain/arrest me, by force if necessary, for interference with a police officer in the performance of his duties.
I also know if I act like a dick, he will act like a bigger dick, because it's imperative for his safety to maintain control of the situation. That's his most important weapon, because he has no way of knowing who's armed, nuts or a threat.
There are certainly cops that shouldn't be, but most are just trying to do their job and get home alive.
If it wasn't a membership card to the Mickey Mouse Club. It would have to be a valid ID with sufficient information to convince the cop he belonged there.
He wasn't arrested for not belonging there; he was arrested for being tumultuous in his own home.
I also know if I act like a dick, he will act like a bigger dick, because it's imperative for his safety to maintain control of the situation.
Arresting someone for attitude is losing control, not maintaining it.
Thing is, as Bruce and Cloud have stated, there are very different accounts.
Mum worked for the Police for 13 years (and I can tell you if I'd ever been arrested she would have assumed I was at fault.)
She did admit to family that there are bad apples, the crack-heads-&-ask-later-brigade, officers who have short fuses, or who were arseholes or who simply loved procedure. And she told us of an altercation between an old friend of hers and a police officer where the stories differed wildly. From her knowledge of both, she believed the fault had to be on both sides, two arsey men with over-inflated egos...
In general I was brought up to be on the side of law enforcement. It speaks to a side of me that has been conditioned to accept authority. But I also know they are human, and what goes down in official records is not always what we would consider the truth, were we eye witnesses. And police are racist, homophobic, violent and capable of over-reacting. I think it's in a slightly greater percentage than in the general public, just because the job is bound to attract people with forceful opinions.
Thing is, as Bruce and Cloud have stated, there are very different accounts.
But both accounts say that ID was shown, and neither account says that Gates wasn't in his own house.
In fact, the cop says he offered to use Gates' house key to relock the door after the arrest.
From her knowledge of both, she believed the fault had to be on both sides, two arsey men with over-inflated egos...
And that probably applies here as well. But one of those people was performing an official duty, and could have ended the encounter by leaving, once it was determined that there was no break-in.
He wasn't arrested for not belonging there; he was arrested for being tumultuous in his own home. Arresting someone for attitude is losing control, not maintaining it.
He was arrested for "being tumultuous" during a police investigation of a reported crime, where he was the prime suspect. Whether he showed sufficient evidence of his right to be there is not clear. But even if he did that doesn't end the investigation. The cop should still try to find out if the person that reported the break in, saw someone else, before the professor got there. If there was someone hiding in the house, unknown to either of them. What if the cop left and the prof was murdered?
But anyway, verbal assault on a working cop is sufficient reason for arrest, obstructing justice, interfering with a criminal investigation, and clearly racism.
He wasn't arrested for his attitude, he was arrested for his actions, and the fact that he was arrested proves the cop was in control of the situation, if not his temper.
"Being tumultuous" in the real world is risking escalated retaliation, often massive.
I still maintain they were both wrong.
If there was someone hiding in the house, unknown to either of them. What if the cop left and the prof was murdered?
So the cop was putting Gates in protective custody to save him from a hypothetical burglar who he offered to lock in the house behind them?
He wasn't arrested for his attitude, he was arrested for his actions, and the fact that he was arrested proves the cop was in control of the situation, if not his temper.
He needs to be in control of both. Gates' actions were displaying attitude, so actions vs attitude is a bit of a quibble.
I still maintain they were both wrong.
Sure. Gates was wrong for being an ass, and Crowley was wrong for arresting him.
Cops are supposed to deal with people who are having bad days, and if they can only handle asses by tossing them in jail, they need a new line of work. "Don't poke the bear" excuses are only appropriate if the cop is considered to be a wild animal, unable or unwilling to deescalate.
I don't disagree with you, HM, but I have to say that throwing the race card is about as shitty as it gets. Like a woman crying rape, out of revenge, it belittles everyone who has actually been hurt as a result of such crimes. It's a cheap cop-out, pun intended, and slimy and sick. It's a bit more than a little "attitude." Someone who is out there every day dealing with the dumbasses of the world might be a little taken aback to be accused of such a thing when they are trying, against all the crap in the world, to be one who protects all law-abiding citizens, regardless of race.
There, I said it.
Apparently, the cop was very experienced, and actually an instructor teaching cops not to racial-profile. (Or so I heard--who knows what's accurate now?)
I just want to know--if I become obstreperous, can I get a Beer With Obama?
I don't disagree with you, HM, but I have to say that throwing the race card is about as shitty as it gets. ... It's a bit more than a little "attitude."
I don't disagree with that, but a) ideally, it shouldn't figure into whether to arrest him, and b) if it does figure into it, it makes arresting him even stupider.
The story should have been "Harvard Professor accuses cops of racism when they respond to 911 call". Gates would not have come out well in that exchange. Instead, the story was "Harvard professor arrested out of his own home after burglary reported." If someone is accusing you of racial profiling, tossing him in jail to teach him a lesson can only hurt your case.
So you suggest we don't tiptoe around law enforcement, but we tiptoe around people who cry "wolf?"
A man whose professional life revolves around the power politics of race escalates a routine answer to a police call into a racial incident, prior to any escalation by the officer.
Gates has built his very lucrative academic career on seeing racists in every corner.
So you suggest we don't tiptoe around law enforcement, but we tiptoe around people who cry "wolf?"
No, I suggest we ignore or refute people who cry "wolf" falsely. I further suggest that, if we wish to suggest that there is no wolf, we not bite them.
Ignore the guy who may or may not be entering a house illegally to do who knows what, because he screams wolf?
Yeah, OK.
Ignore the crying of wolf, which is irrelevant to whether he was in the house legally. And both accounts stipulate that he was.
Next time I'm skulking about outside my own home, and the police ask me if I live there and want ID, I'm going to start screaming "PMS" rather than show my ID. It's really the best way to go. They don't even need to give me the crap about protecting my neighbors, or me...I don't even care if there is a serial killer in my house, just so everyone knows I've been put upon.
The closest thing to "crying wolf" in the "break-in" would be the neighbor calling 911, but that wouldn't apply unless she was in the habit of doing that.
Next time I'm skulking about outside my own home,
Did you mean "inside"?
Yeah, I'm sorry: I meant "next time I'm inside my house after forcing my door open" I will scream because, really, I want anyone to have the right to force my door open. Don't they know WHO I AM?
Next time I'm skulking about outside my own home, and the police ask me if I live there and want ID, I'm going to start screaming "PMS" rather than show my ID.
Perfect!
Isn't this a bit like the people who get mad at store clerks for checking their ID when they want to make a credit card purchase? The reason the clerk is doing it isn't because they are "out to get you" or whatever the hell stupid reason.
Yeah, I'm sorry: I meant "next time I'm inside my house after forcing my door open"
Did you mean "after using the key to get in the back door after the front was stuck"?
That isn't what the neighbor said, who called 911: they saw a person wedging into the door. Or, were the cops casing the joint just WAITING for him to do just that (duh duh DUHHHHHHHHH theme music.)
Quit playing semantics with me, ya pansy ass pansies.
Yeah, I'm sure cops never hear people try to talk their way out of stuff with complex excuses.
Isn't this a bit like the people who get mad at store clerks for checking their ID when they want to make a credit card purchase? The reason the clerk is doing it isn't because they are "out to get you" or whatever the hell stupid reason.
Yes, but I think there's not much disagreement over whether Gates was being an ass; just whether he should have been arrested.
That isn't what the neighbor said, who called 911: they saw a person wedging into the door.
I'm talking about the arrest, not the cops coming 'round in the first place.
Wow! look at the racial bias...
Arresting the man was a mistake. I dont like the thought that I could have my liberty so easily taken away from me.
Did you mean "after using the key to get in the back door after the front was stuck"?
I may have been
wrong about that. I don't remember now where I saw the thing about the back door.
It's common sense and a life-lesson not to mouth off to cops! Duh.
Unless it's really essential, which I don't think this was.
Seriously. The trouble I've avoided just by being NICE?! Priceless. Yet, no cost to me.
Plus I show due respect unless I really have a reason to do otherwise.
Asshats do the opposite.
Any of you ever had to bust into your own house? I have.
What would I have done if the cops showed up to arrest me?
First of all, I've lived here five years. People around here know me (and I'm so far off the beaten track that there are no strangers), so the odds of being reported are zero, but let's say it happens. What would I do?
My first inclination would be to assume the cop was at the wrong address (again, I'm in the woods at the end of a gravel road that's at the end of a gravel road - convoluted road schematics and damned few road signs). If he insisted that I identify myself, I'd show him my ID, then go into my office and whip out my mortgage papers.
What's so hard about that?
Oh yeah, I don't have a male ego. :rolleyes:
I've broken into every place I've lived, at one time or another. I'm forgetful. :blush:
Oh yeah, I don't have a male ego. :rolleyes:
:eyebrow:
If he insisted that I identify myself, I'd show him my ID, then go into my office and whip out my mortgage papers.
What's so hard about that?
As per the transcript linked above, Crowley called the wagon after verifying Gates' identity. He should have been gone at that point.
As per the transcript linked above, Crowley called the wagon after verifying Gates' identity.
Then Crowley's ego/attitude is at fault, here.
He should have been gone at that point.
Right-o. Time to give that cop the boot.
They were probably both a little wrong. Police once upon a scene need to be in charge to maintain order - period. Gates acted like an ass and got treated accordingly. Race was/is inconsequential except to those who want to see it. Watch COPS or any of those shows - People of all races act like this and get treated the same way - no matter who/what they are.
Cops need to be in charge, until the situation is resolved. Once it's resolved, there is no need to be in charge any more. Once the guy proved it was his house, the situation was over. The cop should leave then.
As per the transcript linked above, Crowley called the wagon after verifying Gates' identity. He should have been gone at that point.
Officer 52: I’m up with a gentleman who says he resides here (background voice) but uncooperative. But uh, keep the cars coming.
Male patrol 1: Copy.
Officer 52: Can you also send the Harvard University police this way?
Male patrol 1: We can send ’em in. . . .
The investigation was still under way when he said keep backup coming. He asked for the Harvard police, which sounds like Gates showed a Harvard ID and not a Drivers license. I doubt a Harvard ID would have his address on it.
Female dispatcher: Respond to 17 Ware Street for a possible B and E in progress. Two SPs [suspicious persons] barged their way into the home, they have suitcases. R-P 5-SP. Stand by, trying to get further.
Officer 52 (Crowley): 52. Ware Street right now, 17?
Dispatcher: 17 Ware Street . . . both SPs are still in the house, unknown on race. One may be a Hispanic male, not sure. . . .
The cop was working with the information that there were
two suspects. The second might be holding a samurai sword to the throats of Gate's grandmother, three babies and a kitten in the attic. The cop doesn't know at this point.
The person who made the original 911 call did not identify the people who broke into the house by race - she could not tell from wherever she was. Certainly not a case of racial profiling.
I live on a little street in the city that only has 5 houses on one side and the YMCA on the other side. In spite of a lot of traffic at the Y, 2 of the houses have been broken into during the day within the last 4 years. Just walked up and kicked in the door. I wish somebody had called on them. I feel safer because I have 3 large dogs who sound hungry whenever somebody comes to the door.
The investigation was still under way when he said keep backup coming. He asked for the Harvard police, which sounds like Gates showed a Harvard ID and not a Drivers license. I doubt a Harvard ID would have his address on it.
Read a bit further down. That exchange had already happened when he called for the wagon. The Harvard cops were there (to lock the door) when Gates was carted away, so Crowley knew Gates was legit at that point at the latest.
Consider the man at the center of this scene, Here are a few items:
Since 1991, Gates has been teaching African American studies at Harvard, where he serves as the director of the W. E. B. Du Bois Institute for African and African American Research. De Bois, an American civil rights activist, sociologist, historian and author, was an avowed communist and also a socialist sympathizer
Serving as director for the Harvard institute immortalizing Du Bois, Gates cultivated black radicals to his race studies department, most prominently bringing in Cornel West, a controversial adviser on Louis Farrakhan's Million Man March with close ties to socialist and black extremist groups. West is a declared personal friend of Farrakhan.
Gates also lured to Harvard socialist sympathizer Kwame Anthony Appiah, a Ghanaian philosopher, cultural theorist and novelist, as well as William Julius Wilson, who is close to the Democrat Socialists of America.
Gates authored two books with West, a long-time member and honorary chair of the Democrat Socialists of America. West served on the black advisory board of Obama's presidential campaign.
From a young age, West proclaimed he admired “the sincere black militancy of Malcolm X, the defiant rage of the Black Panther Party … and the livid black [liberation] theology of James Cone.”
Cone's theology spawned Rev. Jeremiah Wright, Obama's controversial pastor for 20 years at the Trinity United Church of Christ. West was a strong defender of Wright when the pastor's extreme remarks became national news during last year's campaign season.
Gates himself is a strong supporter of affirmative action and a key member of the reparations movement for the descendants of African slaves. He joined an effort to bring a class action lawsuit for reparations and reportedly has been working privately to urge political and business leaders to keep the issue of slavery at the forefront of social-justice discussions and to support his campaign for reparations.
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=104938I don't disagree with you, HM, but I have to say that throwing the race card is about as shitty as it gets. Like a woman crying rape, out of revenge, it belittles everyone who has actually been hurt as a result of such crimes. It's a cheap cop-out, pun intended, and slimy and sick. It's a bit more than a little "attitude." Someone who is out there every day dealing with the dumbasses of the world might be a little taken aback to be accused of such a thing when they are trying, against all the crap in the world, to be one who protects all law-abiding citizens, regardless of race.
There, I said it.
And you said it well, Shawnee.
I think there's hope for you yet. Great meringue heaps of hope if you keep writing like this.
I was just going to quote your first sentence and say that was my take on it all, too, but the rest of your para changed my mind. The good professor showed an ugly bigoted side to him -- maybe a beer at the White House with the sergeant would be just the thing to finish the affair.
And Obama's not dumb; I just wish he believed in better things. He's got this little social chip on his shoulder that doesn't become a President and I'd sure like to see him flick it off.
The last sentence summing up the cop's task -- well, that is known to come with the territory of being a policeman. It also tends to be one reason not every young policeman stays in to collect his police pension at twenty years. I've met one -- started as a football lineman, then a cop, and one day to defend his partner's life shot a man dead, quit police work, went to seminary, and ended up as the Episcopal Bishop of Los Angeles.
:)
He likes me. He really likes me.
I've seen so much of it, in my career, and I can't stand people playing victim, especially when the victim shirt doesn't fit.
If you promise not to tell anyone, I'll cop to seeing tiny bits of conservatism in me. I know that you'll see that as me getting smarter; I see it as a bit of moderation on my part. ;)
Read a bit further down. That exchange had already happened when he called for the wagon. The Harvard cops were there (to lock the door) when Gates was carted away, so Crowley knew Gates was legit at that point at the latest.
Officer 2: (inaudible) to patrol. Do we have a wagon coming through to the location?
Male patrol 3: Patrol to wagon.
Wagon: Wagon.
Male patrol 3: 17 Ware Street.
Wagon: Copy.
No, there's no mention of the Harvard police being there, or that they were to lock the door. The above quote follows the last section I quoted in the transcript you linked. Crowley is officer 52, not officer 2, or male patrol 3.
There is no indication that Gates was under arrest when officer 2 asked if the wagon was still coming.
The wagon call was after they called the Harvard cops, and the Harvard cops were there when they took Gates away, as they gave Gates' key to one of them to lock the door.
After they called the Harvard cops. It was still an investigation in progress when they asked if a wagon was coming. Dispatching the wagon simultaneously is probably SOP for a report of a multiple perp break in.
After they called the Harvard cops.
That's what I said. And the Harvard cops were there when they carted him away.
No evidence of racial profiling.
Someone please tell this dumbass to STF up. It is not about her and her 15 min of fame. No one gives a shit. We have your cracker ass on tape. Move along.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jqwi0TSVtxC458-6AKpUuaTpH5FgD99OENK00For me, the question boils down to this: no one has claimed that the cop came on with attitude first. Why did Gates suppose that he could or should be a dick? Why did he just not say, "This is my residence, officer. If you'll follow me, I'll get my ID to prove that."
Cop looks at ID, apologizes for the inconvenience, explains the reason they are there if Gates asks, tells him they were just watching out for his property and safety, and leaves. No incident.
Having a king sized chip on your shoulder, even though you are within your rights, makes you a dick. A scholarly, educated, Harvard-tenured dick, but a dick nonetheless. And before anyone says it, yes, being a dick is legal. Covered by the First Amendment.
And now, I'm gonna say something, and you can all call *me* racist.
Having a major fucking attitude is verging on being a cultural imperative in the African American community - or at least a significant percentage of it. Making goddamn good and sure *everyone* knows that you are The Shit, all that and a bag of chips, seems to be foremost when asserting one's presence in the world. You don't have to actually *have* any substance to you, but everyone on the planet had damn well better treat you like you do, or you're gonna get even more attitude. And all of that respect is due up front, BTW, no matter how big a piece of shit the person may turn out to be.
So fire away, folks. Tell me what a racist, bigoted fuck I am. Personally, I don't see anything in what went down in the first minute or so at Hahvahd that day that warranted *anyone* being a dick, but then I generally don't get why people seem to feel compelled to be dicks to begin with...regardless of their racial heritage.
Ahh, the most liberal person I know other than me said it too.
It's true. Quit playing victim politics.
Bravo, Els.
The wagon call was after they called the Harvard cops, and the Harvard cops were there when they took Gates away, as they gave Gates' key to one of them to lock the door.
Officer 2, not Crowley, called to see if the wagon was
still coming, not calling for one, before the Harvard cops arrived.
I'd like to know just who made the 911 call, from the grassy knoll. The whole thing could have been orchestrated as publicity for Gates to push his reparations plan. :eyebrow:
Els - :notworthy: You totally got it.
This is also the biggest non story I can think of off the cuff. Act like an ass to a cop - get what you deserve.
Officer 2, not Crowley, called to see if the wagon was still coming, not calling for one, before the Harvard cops arrived.
After they were called, though, as I've been saying all along. At that point they knew who he was, and police officers who could verify it were on the way (or even there; the transcript doesn't say either way). Calling to cancel the wagon would have made more sense at that point. And the Harvard cops were there when they carted him away.
Read a bit further down. That exchange had already happened when he called for the wagon. The Harvard cops were there (to lock the door) when Gates was carted away, so Crowley knew Gates was legit at that point at the latest.
I don't see that it matters one damn bit that Gates was able to prove it was his house because he wasn't arrested for B and E. He was arrested because of his behavior towards the police officers during the course of their investigation. If you want to be a cock to the cops then take your lumps and enjoy your day, don't come crying racism.
If you want to be a cock to the cops then take your lumps and enjoy your day, don't come crying racism.
That just bears repeating.
Seems like a clash of 2 egos that demand respect instead of earning it. Only 1 had handcuffs, so the outcome seems pretty obvious. Professor took a knife to a gun fight, so to speak.
Don't know about "African" anything Els, but being a black person in England does not mean having to have anything.
The black people I know are as different and diverse as the white people.
Chips on shoulders and attitudes and issues are far more dependent on social class, deprivation, family situation, sense of identity and (sadly) religion than they are on colour.
I can't speak for your country. You have a more violent racial history, and more recently, where people can remember their families being hosed, having dogs set on them, being segregated, being denied votes and schooling. Here, it's further back, where people's family memories include partition, colonial rule, Amritsar and all that. I'm not taking the moral high ground.
I'm just saying, while I applauded the first part of your post, the second part shocked me. I think the Professor acted like a cock. I don't care whether he was black, white, or sky-blue-pink. But your post sounds to you like to you it does. Which I find sad.
I can't speak for your country.
Doesn't stop you from trying, does it?
I think the Professor acted like a cock. I don't care whether he was black, white, or sky-blue-pink. But your post sounds to you like to you it does. Which I find sad.
Did you happen to read anything about the original story? The fact that this man is a career expert in racially inflammatory subjects, sees everything with racially-colored glasses, and was the one that introduced the topic of race into this incident? Yet, in your mind, the pollyannish platitude that race is an invisible, neutral subject trumps everything else (even the facts). Nobody, especially--God forbid--a white American, is allowed to comment on race.
thanks Flint - you beat me to it and were much nicer than that which I was going to say.
Sorry to hear that about your car S123 - maybe they'll just total it and give you a shiny new one.
Fuckboy is going to buy me a brand new car to replace the car with 599 miles on it. I finally am mad...he broke the law and I'm the one sitting here in the dark while the insurance companies play their little games.
Can't wait til that little fucker throws the race card, which is where he was headed last I heard (it's a conspiracy against me, he says.)
Yeah, he's black, and from a foreign country. Do I care? No, he threw that card into the ring and I won't put up with that shit.
We weren't around many black people when I was little. (My dad was a foreman on highway construction and we travelled around and lived in some very remote places until I was halfway through first grade.) Before I went to preschool, my mom says she told me "Your teacher, Mrs ____ is black, and you haven't seen a black person." My mom hasn't a racist bone in her body: she wanted me to understand and not be surprised. She said I shrugged and said "is she nice?" I didn't even care when I didn't even know what it meant. Incidentally, my mom thought she was wonderful and from what little I remember I thought so too. *shrugs*
So to have that shit thrown around, and especially at ME, doesn't sit well with me. I quit making excuses for fucking up my life and changed it: why do I now pay for people who won't take responsibility for their own mistakes?
Boohoo, I'm a victim. Yeah, well, so were my ancestors. Bite me. kthxbai.
Flint hits the nail squarely on the head. White folks are *not* allowed to comment on race. Only people who are *not* white are so allowed, and they can bash away with all the forces of righteousness, without making the qualification that "assholes are assholes, not just white people", and it is not only acceptable, it is *encouraged*.
So I ask us all...which race is more racist? And how are we to have a dialogue towards easing tensions, righting wrongs and coming together if we cannot point out, honestly and openly, our cultural foibles that may work against us?
There are tests of this. Try throwing a White Heritage Festival and see how far you get. Then call for a Caucasian History Month in all schools. Have a White Film Festival, an Association for the Advancement of Caucasian People or a WET (White Entertainment Television - lots of reruns of Leave it to Beaver, I presume). You, the hypothetic organizer, would instantly become the most racist, bigoted person on the planet. Yet each and every one of the proposed entities I speculate above has it's African American counterpart. So how come it isn't racist in that context?
Racist is racist. Like being an asshole, it is not the province of a single color, religion or ethnicity. Racism is a two way street, period. The time has past for standing upon wrongs which cannot be undone, but which have been put as right as they can be at this point in time. Time to stop pointing fingers and to roll up the sleeves and get on with the hard work of getting on.
Try throwing a White Heritage Festival and see how far you get. Then call for a Caucasian History Month in all schools.
Well, when I was growing up, pretty much every day was Caucasian History. The only African American figure I remember studying was George Washington Carver. Other than that, it was all dead European dudes, settlers and Indians (the phrase "Native American" hadn't been coined).
I learned about John Brown, Sojourner Truth, and W. E. B. DuBois on my own dime.
Of course, I also don't remember studying anything about Haym Solomon in public school, so it wasn't just African Americans who were left out.
You did grow up a long time ago though, Rich. It was far more balanced when I went to school in the 80s and early 90s, and even moreso today for my kids' curriculum.
My kids have all been in HS within the last ten years, and from my observations of their curriculum, the situation is now, if anything, reversed. Overcompensation, because Caucasians are bad, m'kay?
The time has past for standing upon wrongs which cannot be undone, but which have been put as right as they can be at this point in time. Time to stop pointing fingers and to roll up the sleeves and get on with the hard work of getting on.
Not for The professor, he's one of the leading proponents of reparations.
I learned about John Brown, Sojourner Truth, and W. E. B. DuBois on my own dime.
John Brown? The John Brown, white abolitionist, I learned about in school?
They didn't have time to teach us about every person that did exceptionally good, or bad, things. Only the ones that had a major impact on the course of the nations history.
Like the Civil War, it would take a whole school year to cover it, so only major turning points, not every campaign, were covered.
why do I now pay for people who won't take responsibility for their own mistakes?
:lol2: You may end up becoming a little more conservative after this experience. Just think, a whole life time of similar experiences and you change in the end.
Flint hits the nail squarely on the head. White folks are *not* allowed to comment on race. Only people who are *not* white are so allowed, and they can bash away with all the forces of righteousness, without making the qualification that "assholes are assholes, not just white people", and it is not only acceptable, it is *encouraged*.
So I ask us all...which race is more racist? And how are we to have a dialogue towards easing tensions, righting wrongs and coming together if we cannot point out, honestly and openly, our cultural foibles that may work against us?
There are tests of this. Try throwing a White Heritage Festival and see how far you get. Then call for a Caucasian History Month in all schools. Have a White Film Festival, an Association for the Advancement of Caucasian People or a WET (White Entertainment Television - lots of reruns of Leave it to Beaver, I presume). You, the hypothetic organizer, would instantly become the most racist, bigoted person on the planet. Yet each and every one of the proposed entities I speculate above has it's African American counterpart. So how come it isn't racist in that context?
Racist is racist. Like being an asshole, it is not the province of a single color, religion or ethnicity. Racism is a two way street, period. The time has past for standing upon wrongs which cannot be undone, but which have been put as right as they can be at this point in time. Time to stop pointing fingers and to roll up the sleeves and get on with the hard work of getting on.
:thumb:
:lol2: You may end up becoming a little more conservative after this experience. Just think, a whole life time of similar experiences and you change in the end.
If we define conservative as "has lost faith in humankind and has given up on believing that hard work is what gets you ahead rather than lying cheating and stealing and playing victim" then yes, I suppose you're right. ;)
:(
If we define conservative as "has lost faith in humankind and has given up on believing that hard work is what gets you ahead rather than lying cheating and stealing and playing victim" then yes, I suppose you're right. ;)
:(
That's it!!!!:eek::D
OH NOES...I has converzionz. :lol:
I have always defined being conservative much differently than the norm. :)
This was pretty good.
If this sounds like an improbable Hollywood drama sketch, it isn't nearly as far-fetched as the notion that this "beer summit" as it's been called will be a "teachable moment," as President Obama has opined, in the nation's long struggle with race. It may smooth over the problems these two men have with each other, but it will do nothing to change the different vantage points from which they and others of their respective races view the world. It is these differing worldviews that have created the gulf between blacks and whites in America, a gulf unique to the dynamic between these two races.
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2009/07/bitter_suds_cant_wash_away_rac.html
An interesting perspective. I am not really sure that this "beer summit" did much to advance the rift between majority-"minorities" and the police.
And is it just me, or did all the pictures of that summit make it look like the cop was the only one to take a swig of his beer. It's beer, people. You drink it.
An interesting perspective. I am not really sure that this "beer summit" did much to advance the rift between majority-"minorities" and the police.
I agree, Crowley won't understand Gates looking for a hidden agenda in every white persons actions, and Gates won't understand how Crowley must never let his guard down when he's working.
It did, however, give the comedians a chance to jump in with the beer summit jokes. That usually signals, for the public watching this play out in the press, the end of escalation.
Not to jump on the Merc wagon here, but what was the point? Obama invited them to a sit down so they could agree to disagree? Hell of a statesman... not.
http://xkcd.com/617/
woooooooooooo! :lol:
Not to jump on the Merc wagon here..
Yea, heaven forbid.:rolleyes:
Well
this takes the whole affair to a new level.
Officer Justin Barrett was suspended Tuesday after allegedly sending a copy of the racially charged e-mail about Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates Jr. to The Boston Globe and colleagues at the National Guard, referring to Gates as a "jungle monkey."
Of Gates, the e-mail said, "His first priority of effort should be to get off the phone and comply with police, for if I was the officer he verbally assaulted like a banana-eating jungle monkey, I would have sprayed him in the face with OC [pepper spray] deserving of his belligerent non-compliance." The e-mail also used the phrase "jungle monkey" two other times.
And of course, trust a lawyer to put a really bizarre spin on it.
Barrett's lawyer, Peter Marano, said his client, who did a tour of duty in Iraq in 2005, would not be speaking publicly.
"He's facing military criminal charges for this," said Marano. He said Barrett's letter could be construed as "conduct unbecoming in the military" and that could lead to time in the stockade -- or even the death penalty.
A National Guard spokesman said late this afternoon that Barrett was not facing criminal charges and there was no way that he would face the death penalty.
Barrett will fight the department if he is fired, Marano said.
"I think the department has taken such an outwardly over-proportional response," he said. "We have police officers who do heroin, cocaine and keep their job, beat their wives, keep their jobs. The mayor isn't out on TV saying they're g-o-n-e ... The issue is that it's a private e-mail from a private computer at home."
Death Penalty? Is Marano Italian for moron?
I'm trying to figure out from the last paragraph if it is Barrett or Marano who speaks so well of the drug using, wife beating members of the Boston Police.
A copy of Barrett's e-mail, which was addressed to Globe columnist Yvonne Abraham and criticized her July 21 column on the Gates incident, was released by police today. The long, rambling, angry screed against Abraham criticized her writing, her views, and Gates. Abraham writes today that Barrett's email was one of many that she deleted.
BTW, it's not a private e-mail if you send it to a newspaper columnist.
Not to jump on the Merc wagon here, but what was the point? Obama invited them to a sit down so they could agree to disagree? Hell of a statesman... not.
The ground rules were what happened was not to be discussed, nor apologies asked for/given.
The purpose was to discuss how the black community and the police could build a better relationship. They did that and couldn't agree on a solution, but what it did accomplish is stop the escalation in the press of the original incident. Now the press is scrambling for ancillary stories.
You know when there's a plane crash, then for awhile any little thing that happens, involving a plane becomes a headline story ? This will be the same.
I had higher expectations. Seems like the first black president would have something real to say about race relations, something people could take away and think about, something that might affect change...
I think at the very least, after the "acted stupidly" remark he had some diplomatic ground to make up. Didn't.
Why do I think the reason they could not come to an agreement is because Gates is a fractious, recalcitrant, son of a bitch? I think Obama could charm birds out of trees, especially in person, unless the bird shuts its eyes and ears and utterly refuses to listen.
"Victims" are too busy being indignant to listen.
I'm sick of people acting like cops are wild animals, and if you don't tiptoe around them you deserve what you get.
I know I'm late to this party, but amen to that, monkey. Most cops I know are fucking buzztards who think they are entitled to walk into a home and start making life decisions for the owner. With a taser.
I had higher expectations. Seems like the first black president would have something real to say about race relations, something people could take away and think about, something that might affect change...
I think at the very least, after the "acted stupidly" remark he had some diplomatic ground to make up. Didn't.
Yeah, after Obama put his foot in his mouth, when he pulled it out he left his shoe behind.
I don't expect Crowley to acknowledge the cops have a small percentage bullies, nor Gates to acknowledge the black population has a small percentage of niggers.
...the cops have a small percentage bullies,
small percentage?
I do believe it's a requirement to be a bully to become a cop in Kettering. Of course, Michiganers DO refer to Ohio as a "nazi state"....
Yeah, after Obama put his foot in his mouth, when he pulled it out he left his shoe behind.
I don't expect Crowley to acknowledge the cops have a small percentage bullies, nor Gates to acknowledge the black population has a small percentage of niggers.
I would venture to say that the percentage is much larger than small on both sides.
Flint hits the nail squarely on the head. White folks are *not* allowed to comment on race. Only people who are *not* white are so allowed, and they can bash away with all the forces of righteousness, without making the qualification that "assholes are assholes, not just white people", and it is not only acceptable, it is *encouraged*.
So I ask us all...which race is more racist? And how are we to have a dialogue towards easing tensions, righting wrongs and coming together if we cannot point out, honestly and openly, our cultural foibles that may work against us?
There are tests of this. Try throwing a White Heritage Festival and see how far you get. Then call for a Caucasian History Month in all schools. Have a White Film Festival, an Association for the Advancement of Caucasian People or a WET (White Entertainment Television - lots of reruns of Leave it to Beaver, I presume). You, the hypothetic organizer, would instantly become the most racist, bigoted person on the planet. Yet each and every one of the proposed entities I speculate above has it's African American counterpart. So how come it isn't racist in that context?
Racist is racist. Like being an asshole, it is not the province of a single color, religion or ethnicity. Racism is a two way street, period. The time has past for standing upon wrongs which cannot be undone, but which have been put as right as they can be at this point in time. Time to stop pointing fingers and to roll up the sleeves and get on with the hard work of getting on.
I agree with the above.
...Having a major fucking attitude is verging on being a cultural imperative in the African American community - or at least a significant percentage of it...
I think you're painting individuals with a wide brush. It's like saying "all Pagans are promiscuous, Christian-hating, imbeciles".
Would it be fair if I said that I note that a larger percentage of attitudinal, brash, rude assholes seemed to be African American, as opposed to other races, or would I be required to conduct an objective study and cite the resultant figures, adjusted for statistical standard deviation?
And for the record, a larger percentage of sexually promiscuous, Christian-hating people I observe *are* Pagan. :D
Would it be fair if I said that I note that a larger percentage of attitudinal, brash, rude assholes seemed to be African American, as opposed to other races, or would I be required to conduct an objective study and cite the resultant figures, adjusted for statistical standard deviation?
Well until you conduct that study, it's only your opinion rather than a fact. ;)
I'm trying to imagine the questionnaire you'll need for that study:
(1) Please identify yourself
(a) Honky
(b) Spic
(c) Nigger
(d) Slope
(e) towel-head
(f) other darkie
(2) Are you an asshole?
(a) yes
(b) no
(3) Who do you blame for bad things in your life?
(a) yourself
(b) other people today
(c) historical injustices
(d) government conspiracy
(e) meddling kids
(4) If a pig busted you, would you:
(a) call your lawyer
(b) call you congressman
(c) call your homies
(d) call your momma
(e) pop a cap in his fat ass
Thank you for participating in this survey. All results are confidential. Unless you answered (d) to question (3), but we know who you are anyway.
lol...Ooops...is it racist if I laugh at that quiz?
Well until you conduct that study, it's only your opinion rather than a fact. ;)
Yeah, but I don't believe I cited any facts when I made the original statement about assholishness being a cultural phenomenon, so I figured it was obvious that it was my opinion.
I was just answering your question. ;)
Zen! You got to do a poll! :)
I'm sick of people acting like cops are wild animals, and if you don't tiptoe around them you deserve what you get.
This.
Images from Texas where the cop pulls granny over and gives her a ticket, but she refuses to sign it. (It's her right not to sign it.)
Cop doesn't see it that way, so he physically pulls her out of the car, pushes her to the side and SCREAMS at her. She yells, fine, I'll sign it. He's pushing her again.
She gets pissed he's shoving on her, and screams right back. He decides he's gonna get control of the situation, so after a few warnings, (and her trying to get back in the truck), he finally tazes her, then yells at her to get on the ground.
At first, I thought, well, she should have just signed the damn ticket. Then, she should have just complied with the officer, and none of that would have happened.
Then I realized, wait a minute. She chose not to sign the ticket, which is well within her rights. That cop should have just said ok ma'am, have a good day and left. As soon as she exercised her right to NOT sign that ticket, he got it in his head that she was "a trouble maker". And he wasn't having that. No 72 year old woman is going to give him trouble. No siree.
As soon as he put his hands on her and forced her out of her truck, he committed a crime: assault, and technically, kidnapping. She had broken NO law, he had NO probable cause to pull her from that vehicle.
At that very moment, he STOPPED being a police officer, protecting the public safety, and became a thug. Abuse of power, no?
This woman did NOT deserve to be tasered. She was beligerent, yes, but aren't cops trained on how to handle beligerent people? Isn't that kind of the down side to being a cop? I mean, wouldn't one think the vast majority of criminals are beligerent in the first place?
(And I'm too lazy to look up beligerent at the moment.)
Gates, while a cock, should not have been arrested. He was not in a public place, he was in his yard. Private property, yes? The cop, after finally getting ID on this cock, should have said, ok sir, have a good night, and walked away. Gates did NOTHING against the law, and I think he should sue the fuck out of Cambridge PD. Not because of the race issue, but because he didn't break any laws and got arrested anyway.
This wasn't a case of racism, it was case of cop-ism.
Actually, if you listen closely at the point where the officer is telling her that he will taser her, you can hear her say "I dare you".
The shove did serve to get them away from traffic.
All of that being said, the issue was escalated by the deputy who had filled out the ticket and should have handed it to her and left. I believe Onyx is correct that she was not required to sign the ticket, but I am not a lawyer and Texas law may be different (sometimes I'm not sure it's part of the US).
The woman was argumentative but was
not combative under any definition of the word I can find.
On the face of it, the officer chose to escalate.
And now for something in really bad taste:
You may be a redneck if your mother does not remove the Marlboro from her lips before telling the state patrolman to kiss her ass.[FONT=Tahoma][/FONT]
This.
Images from Texas where the cop pulls granny over and gives her a ticket, but she refuses to sign it. (It's her right not to sign it.)
Then I realized, wait a minute. She chose not to sign the ticket, which is well within her rights. That cop should have just said ok ma'am, have a good day and left.
Sure its her right not to, and in that case it is the cops duty to give her a nice ride to jail.
Do not argue your case on the side of the road, save that for court. Also you must sign the ticket or you will receive a free taxi ride to the local jail. Signing is not an admission of guilt, just a promise to appear in court. You do not have the right to see the radar readout and it does not matter anyway.
From:
http://www.speedingticketcentral.com/Texas-speeding-ticket.html
Or to be more technical:
§ 543.004. NOTICE TO APPEAR REQUIRED: CERTAIN
OFFENSES. (a) An officer shall issue a written notice to appear
if:
(1) the offense charged is speeding or a violation of
the open container law, Section 49.03, Penal Code; and
(2) the person makes a written promise to appear in
court as provided by Section 543.005.
(b) If the person is a resident of or is operating a vehicle
licensed in a state or country other than this state, Subsection (a)
applies only as provided by Chapter 703.
(c) The offenses specified by Subsection (a) are the only
offenses for which issuance of a written notice to appear is
mandatory.
§ 543.005. PROMISE TO APPEAR; RELEASE. To secure
release, the person arrested must make a written promise to appear
in court by signing the written notice prepared by the arresting
officer. The signature may be obtained on a duplicate form or on an
electronic device capable of creating a copy of the signed notice.
The arresting officer shall retain the paper or electronic original
of the notice and deliver the copy of the notice to the person
arrested. The officer shall then promptly release the person from
custody.
From:
http://law.onecle.com/texas/transportation/chapter543.html
Still think the cop was an asshole for trying to get her to sign, and then trying to arrest her, as was his JOB?
Sure its her right not to, and in that case it is the cops duty to give her a nice ride to jail.
From:
http://www.speedingticketcentral.com/Texas-speeding-ticket.html
Or to be more technical:
From:
http://law.onecle.com/texas/transportation/chapter543.html
Still think the cop was an asshole for trying to get her to sign, and then trying to arrest her, as was his JOB?
Assuming your facts are all accurate, then Yes, he was an asshole. He wouldn't be an asshole if he had just given her a nice ride to jail. He should not have assaulted her or tased her.
According to everything I found, yes my facts are right.
Looks like she was resisting arrest to me. Taze the bitch. His life isn't worth less than hers. Just because she's old, doesn't make her a non-threat.
This is TEXAS, where everyone has a gun rack in their car, a gun on their side and another in their boot...if they're goin light that day.
Oh and the shoving or assaulting he does that you're referencing: he is clearly telling her to step back behind the truck. After repeated telling and pointing, he finally pushes her there, she doesn't fall and doesn't stumble, he must not have done it very forcefully, just enough to make her move.
Know how many cops get hit by cars on these routine stops? I don't, but enough that Texas has made it a law that you either have to change lanes or slow by 20mph when passing a cop on the side of the road. (Not very enforceable law though.) Again, he shouldn't have to lose his life over this old lady, he had every right to move himself and her out of danger.
[SIZE="1"]I'm trying to imagine the questionnaire you'll need for that study:
(1) Please identify yourself
(a) Honky
(b) Spic
(c) Nigger
(d) Slope
(e) towel-head
(f) other darkie
(2) Are you an asshole?
(a) yes
(b) no
(3) Who do you blame for bad things in your life?
(a) yourself
(b) other people today
(c) historical injustices
(d) government conspiracy
(e) meddling kids
(4) If a pig busted you, would you:
(a) call your lawyer
(b) call you congressman
(c) call your homies
(d) call your momma
(e) pop a cap in his fat ass
Thank you for participating in this survey. All results are confidential. Unless you answered (d) to question (3), but we know who you are anyway[/SIZE].
1) a
2) a
3) b
4) a
Gates behaved like a man with a huge chip on his shoulder. It was a surprise to learn he is supposed to be an expert of race relations. What a laugh. Too bad he didn't behave like an adult. It could have easily been taken care of with no harm.
Is there a term for ahole-ism.
Not related to this case specifically, but shouldn't there be a term for when aholes get treated like aholes....
Is there a term for ahole-ism.
Not related to this case specifically, but shouldn't there be a term for when aholes get treated like aholes....
There is. It's called Poetic Justice. :rolleyes:
Too bad he didn't behave like an adult. It could have easily been taken care of with no harm.
By the cops. Once they determined there was nothing
to take care of, they should have left. Too bad they didn't behave like adults.
By the cops. Once they determined there was nothing to take care of, they should have left. Too bad they didn't behave like adults.
It's been my experience--and countless others'--that if you are polite to the cops, things go smoothly even if you're in the wrong, and if you're a dick to the cops, you may expect it to go badly for you no matter what. Anyone who still doesn't understand this basic reality after 50-60 years on this planet deserves what they get.
Cops don't deserve to be given attitude just because they're doing their job.
For that matter, no one who's just doing their job should have to put up with attitude.
I wonder how much saliva from wait staff Mr Gates has consumed in his time.
It's been my experience--and countless others'--that if you are polite to the cops, things go smoothly even if you're in the wrong, and if you're a dick to the cops, you may expect it to go badly for you no matter what. Anyone who still doesn't understand this basic reality after 50-60 years on this planet deserves what they get.
I don't believe that we should accept that cops are wild animals as "basic reality".
They're not wild animals, they're just people, who don't get paid enough to put up with the crap they cop from some of the arseholes out there.
eta: bold and underlining. My point is they're not robots. They go out of their way to help people in trouble and perform heroic deeds every day (as a group of people) so why shouldn't they be shown the respect they're due for putting their lives on the line constantly?
If we see them as people, then why do I see so many "don't poke the bear" style responses?
It may be a good idea not to mouth off to cops, but that doesn't render anything they do any more acceptible.
It reminds me of people who say that a girl deserves what she gets if she walks through a shady neighborhood wearing a short skirt.
I don't see them as 'don't poke the bear' responses, but it's just a metaphor anyway. Being people means they don't have unlimited tollerance for dickheads.
I don't think anything the cop did was unacceptable. The man refused to comply and the cop can only assume the worst or he could get shot or stabbed or worse if he decides to take the 'suspects' word, and I think that's the key in this case. The man was a suspect until he proved his identity, but by then he'd already committed a misdemeanor making him the fair recipient of his subsequent treatment.
Nope, I have no sympathy for people who treat cops like crap. I think they do deserve what they get.
As to the short skirt reference, well, I have some thoughts on that, but it's another discussion entirely.
It reminds me of people who say that a girl deserves what she gets if she walks through a shady neighborhood wearing a short skirt.
"Deserves what she gets" is a little harsher when we're talking (presumably) about rape rather than spending a few hours under arrest. And while no one ever deserves rape, my own daughter will be expected to use her brain and take responsibility for the situations she chooses to put herself in.
I don't believe that we should accept that cops are wild animals as "basic reality".
Following standard procedures to ensure their own safety and the effectiveness of their job is the exact opposite of acting like wild animals. They aren't just pulling this shit out of their ass on the fly as you seem to think.
It may be a good idea not to mouth off to cops, but that doesn't render anything they do any more acceptible.
No anything they do, just the stuff they do correctly (like not taking some dude's word for it that he didn't just break into the house the cop was dispatched to check on) Cops get in trouble/sued all the time, especially if they don't follow procedure.
I was just watching a clip of the "made for TV" movie :blush: A Cry For Help. Of course it's a very sensationalized account of the cop's response, but it pointed out, to me, what jinx just said. In this movie, the cop responded to a domestic violence case BADLY. This case led to a law in Connecticut about treating DV like any other violent crime: follow procedure.
Police Officers are trained in exactly what to do in unknown situations. To NOT follow the protocol that has been developed after years of advancement in all aspects of our society is to beg for lawsuits when you "guessed" wrong and didn't follow procedure.
I'm not saying there aren't abuses, as with anything. However, how hard is it, when you know you're where you're supposed to be, to just explain the situation? There is time when indignation is warranted. This was not one of those times.
eta: the movie was about Tracey Thurman.
As you may know, Tracey Thurman's case is an exception to the legal system's ambivalence toward domestic assault. In 1984 Tracey Thurman sued the City of Torrington, Connecticut, and 24 of its police officers for their failure to arrest her violent and estranged husband, Charles "Buck" Thurman. According to the suit, Charles had repeatedly assaulted and threatened to kill Tracey. The final incident took place on June 10, 1983, when Charles stabbed Tracey in the chest, neck, and throat with a knife 10 minutes after she had called police. According to the suit, one police officer arrived at the scene 25 minutes after the call was made, and that officer did nothing to stop Charles from kicking Tracey in the head.
Tracey Thurman alleged that by following a policy of not arresting abusive husbands or boyfriends, Torrington police failed to provide the same protection for abused wives and children as they provided for victims of similar assaults outside a domestic relationship. In a landmark decision the court agreed, ruling that officers could indeed be held accountable for violating the rights of battered women. The court awarded Tracey Thurman $2.3 million in compensatory damages. Quickly following this court decision, Connecticut adopted a more comprehensive domestic violence law. In the twelve months after the new law took effect, the number of domestic violence assaults reported increased by 92 percent.
From
here.
Sorry for the tangent.
The man was a suspect until he proved his identity, but by then he'd already committed a misdemeanor making him the fair recipient of his subsequent treatment.
No he hadn't.
No anything they do, just the stuff they do correctly (like not taking some dude's word for it that he didn't just break into the house the cop was dispatched to check on) Cops get in trouble/sued all the time, especially if they don't follow procedure.
Nobody's saying they should have taken the guy's word, but once the guy's word was corroborated, the cop should have left.
So you are still maintaining the position he was arrested because of his ability/inability to prove his identity? The man was arrested for not cooperating with police. If you are cock to a cop who is following correct procedures you had better plan for your day to go downhill. That seems pretty damn simple to understand. Or maybe you think Gates was arrested because the cop was a white jackass and the professor was a poor, oppressed black man just trying to make his way in this brutal world. Of course, you'd be wrong but maybe that is what you think.
No he hadn't.Nobody's saying they should have taken the guy's word, but once the guy's word was corroborated, the cop should have left.
He behaved in a manor that led the cop to believe further investigation was warranted. Why was he so agitated and confrontational when the cop was just there to do his job, of protecting the professor's property?
If you get pulled over for speeding but behave in a manner that leads the cop to think you're drunk, he's not going to just leave after he writes your ticket - he's going to investigate further.
If we see them as people, then why do I see so many "don't poke the bear" style responses?
It may be a good idea not to mouth off to cops, but that doesn't render anything they do any more acceptible.
It reminds me of people who say that a girl deserves what she gets if she walks through a shady neighborhood wearing a short skirt.
I've lived in a small town and a bad urban area and there is a HUGE difference on how cops hold themselves and the relations that follow.
The first and largest difference I noticed is that cops protect some neighborhoods and control others. For example, in my old neighborhood, I've had police pull out guns on me for a potential speeding ticket, have pulled guns out on some of my friends monthly for looking "suspicious", and have taken 40 minutes to respond when someone tried to break into my apartment.
There are many reasons why cops act like that, some justified and some not, but it is putting up with that type of mentality that causes such hate towards cops, especially in the African American community. When the police force feels more like a foreign occupying force who obviously don't give a shit about you then neighbors potentially risking their lives to protect their community, a rebellious nature cannot be surprising.
My theory is that besides the natural corruptness that comes with a job that holds power over the rest of society, is that most rookie police officers do not try to become racist asshole LAPD wannabes, but they are tired of putting up (I can relate with this as well) with many civilians that act rebelliously because of past experiences with other cops along with exposure to older cops. Its really a cause and effect spiral that has been out of control for some time.
The teenagers act the way they do because of teenage rebellion and police behavior, and in response the police act like assholes because of this and corruptness, and then the population responds and etc.
So you are still maintaining the position he was arrested because of his ability/inability to prove his identity?
Obviously not. He proved his identity, and the cop arrested him anyway. At which point, he should have been gone, and there woud be nobody for Gates to be a cock to.
The man was arrested for not cooperating with police.
In effect, but not legally. He wasn't charged with obstruction or disobeying a lawful order. Presumably because he did, in fact, provide the ID. He was arrested for being disorderly. In his own home.
If you are cock to a cop who is following correct procedures you had better plan for your day to go downhill. That seems pretty damn simple to understand.
Don't poke the bear. It's pretty simple to understand, and good advice. But it absolves the bear.
This is how I see this whole situation with Gates:
The police responded to a call regarding a possible break in.
The police (eventually) verified the suspects as the resident.
At that point their job (investigating a B&E) was done at that residence and they should have left.
- - - -
Notice I left out things that are irrelevant, namely: race and ass-hattery of participants.
Gates was in his own yard, exercising his first amendment rights. By definition, that cannot be illegal. You don't have to like or agree with what he says or how he says it.
Having the "right" to be a dickhead doesn't mean you HAVE to be a dickhead, especially not to someone who is only following procedure and trying to protect you. Everyone is so concerned that their righteous indignation be heard (a unique though rampant form of attention-whoring) that they forget to even think about the other side, and the implications of behaving like an asshat or acting like a decent person.
It's really that simple. :headshake
I don't think I've defended anything but his right to be a dickhead. I certainly don't think he had to be. I fully agree that he was an ass, and shouldn't have been. I've said so several times.
But you believe that, rather than follow procedure, the cop should bow to the asshat?
I don't consider not arresting someone to be bowing.
It is if procedure calls for arrest, and the alleged "perp" (i love that word) gets his way (the cop not following procedure) because the alleged perp is throwing a hissy fit.
I feel safer already. When the drunk down the street decides to kill someone, I'll be glad to know he was able to scare the cop off by crying foul.
So...to clarify, are you saying that the cop should arrest someone even if they aren't doing anything illegal?
The asshat in question did do something illegal, called interfering with government adminitration and disorderly conduct. He wasn't arrested for B&E, or being a dick, he was breaking the law! How many times do you need to be told that?
Understanding that basic fact makes it near impossible for all the boo-hooing poor pitiful me crap to go on. Facts render the unreasonably indignant mute. There's no attention in mute.
Damn! thats the first I heard of that - Did the cops even have tasers?
I have no idea. I just seemed appropriate in the slant of the thread and how some people believe that Gates was some kind of victim in all of this. He was not. If anything he was an instigator. I would have tazed him just for the hell of it. I guess that is why I am not a cop.
The asshat in question did do something illegal, called interfering with government adminitration and disorderly conduct.
He was arrested for
disorderly conduct, in his own home. It is all but impossible for that charge to stick. How would he "cause public inconvenience, annoyance or alarm, or recklessly [create] a risk thereof" in his own home?
He wasn't arrested for B&E, or being a dick, he was breaking the law! How many times do you need to be told that?
I'l wait for the first time that it's told to me when true.
He was arrested for disorderly conduct, in his own home. It is all but impossible for that charge to stick. How would he "cause public inconvenience, annoyance or alarm, or recklessly [create] a risk thereof" in his own home?I'l wait for the first time that it's told to me when true.
No, he was arrested outside of his home, on his property, but outside the front door, which is why they could have made it stick. Well until the President of the United States thought it was a good idea to throw in his opinion on a local police matter.
Well, it was a color issue and Obama was supposed to fix all that, right?
Oh he fixed it alright. How about a beer?
No, he was arrested outside of his home, on his property, but outside the front door, which is why they could have made it stick.
We agree that he was not in his house, but that he was on his own property.
I guess then, we need to determine, by local law, if private property is considered "public" or not.
His dickishness is not in question. He *was* a dick. But being a dick on your own property is *not* against the law!
No, he was arrested outside of his home, on his property, but outside the front door, which is why they could have made it stick.
And not just on his property, but on his porch.
Well until the President of the United States thought it was a good idea to throw in his opinion on a local police matter.
It was dismissed long before Obama said anything.
we still on about this? (shakes head)
we still on about this? (shakes head)
:lol:
we still on about this? (shakes head)
:lol:
There really is nothing more to add.
And not just on his property, but on his porch.
Yea, in view of the public. Hence, disorderly conduct. They should have left him in jail for at least a night.
we still on about this? (shakes head)
:lol:
There really is nothing more to add.
Yea, in view of the public. Hence, disorderly conduct. They should have left him in jail for at least a night.
The law is written vaguely enough that it could apply, even to private property, which, IMHO, is unconstitutional. But it is a law, HM, wrong as it is.
Here is the Massachusettes statute:
Chapter 272: Section 53. Penalty for certain offenses
Section 53. Common night walkers, common street walkers, both male and female, common railers and brawlers, persons who with offensive and disorderly acts or language accost or annoy persons of the opposite sex, lewd, wanton and lascivious persons in speech or behavior, idle and disorderly persons, disturbers of the peace, keepers of noisy and disorderly houses, and persons guilty of indecent exposure may be punished by imprisonment in a jail or house of correction for not more than six months, or by a fine of not more than two hundred dollars, or by both such fine and imprisonment.
They should have tazed his ass.
we still on about this? (shakes head)
:lol:
There really is nothing more to add.
They should have tazed his ass.
Yeah, because tazing (which is potentially lethal if old guy has ANY heart condition at ALL) is such an appropriate reponse to an asshat.
Should I point out I believe it should be legal to simply off anyone I deem to be a fuckstick? The line forms behind the arguing professor gates and dick cheney.
we still on about this? (shakes head)
:lol:
There really is nothing more to add.
:) . . . If you promise not to tell anyone, I'll cop to seeing tiny bits of conservatism in me. I know that you'll see that as me getting smarter; I see it as a bit of moderation on my part. ;)
Smarter either way you look at it, seems to me.
It's also part of growing more mature.
Until you quote it, no one reads it. I'm safe in Shawnonimity. Have you been here before?
:bleh:
Um, never. How's the sangria? Can we get windsurf lessons?
The sangria is so-so. There is no wind-surfing, but there is cliff-jumping, which might interest you. ;)
Not me! I ain't skeered of widths, but I am skeered of heights!