High School Strip Search Case goes to Supreme Court
From
here.
So basically, a girl with no prior record was strip searched based on hearsay from a fellow student. The drug in question was ibuprofin. The girls parents were not consulted. The school is saying that minors have about the same rights as prison inmates.
The 9th Circuit ruled in favor of the student. The Supreme Court may be set to overturn completely, allowing schools unimpeded right to strip and possibly even body cavity search students at will.
That being said, the tone of the questions does not always indicate how the justices will vote.
Instead, most of the justices voiced concern that students could hide dangerous drugs such as crack cocaine or heroin in their clothes.
The case before the court concerns a 13-year-old Arizona girl who was strip searched in a nurse's office after a school friend said the girl, Savana Redding, had brought white pills to school. The pills were extra-strength ibuprofen, which is commonly taken for headaches and cramps.
Last year, a U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that the strip search of Savana Redding was unreasonable and unconstitutional since the pills were ibuprofen. And the court held that the school officials who ordered the search were liable for damages.
But in their comments and questions, most of the justices signaled they are inclined to overturn that decision.
Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. said the school officials should be shielded from being sued since the law governing school searches had not been clear. In the past, the court has said public officials cannot be held liable for damages unless they violate a "clearly established" right.
Better background
here.
Imagine how f**cked up this country could be if the cops could break down the door of anyones house just because their neighbor made up a story.
She was searched by a nurse. Presumably a woman. What's the problem?
Something needs to be done about drugs in school. So it turned out to be nothing this time, but how bout next time when they do find cocain or heroin? Will there be any uproar then?
I don't agree with cavity searches. I think kids that're that serious about dealing drugs would do it outside of school hours, plus most school kids wouldn't want to buy something that came out of another students arsehole would they? (I'm sure there'd be a few though)
The issue here is dealing rather than users from what I can tell. If the school gets a report that a student came to school with 'pills', how should the school react? Let the kid have time to flush them or simply dump them on the floor when no one's looking? You know that's the common way to avoid a conviction right? If no one saw you drop the drugs you're standing on, ie. they can't prove you were the one holding them, they can't convict you.
If they thought my son had drugs in his posession I'd have no objection to a same sex teacher doing a strip search. If he had drugs on him, I'd be glad they found out because there's no way in hell I'd knowingly have my kid take drugs to school and he'd cop holy hell when he got home on top of whatever punishment the school and authorities could come up with too.
eta: The issue here is not about private property. It's about schools which are a public domain. Even if it's a private school, members of the public frequent the area making it a public place.
Something needs to be done about drugs in school.
Welcome to The War On Drugs, ladies and gentlemen. Extremism in defense of loss of liberty is no vice.
So it turned out to be nothing this time, but how bout next time when they do find cocain or heroin? Will there be any uproar then?
Leaving aside for the moment the fact that this specific case was not about any illegal drug, yeah, I'd still have a problem with it. If they really have reason to believe the kid has drugs hidden on their body, then I expect them to call the police. I also expect them to call me.
I don't agree with cavity searches. I think kids that're that serious about dealing drugs would do it outside of school hours, plus most school kids wouldn't want to buy something that came out of another students arsehole would they? (I'm sure there'd be a few though)
So... you don't think the cavity search is wrong, you just don't think it would yield results often enough to be worth the trouble?
If they thought my son had drugs in his posession I'd have no objection to a same sex teacher doing a strip search.
More power to you. In
this country, however, we have, or had, something called the Fourth Amendment. And I've had it up to here with moronic "zero tolerance" policies. If your son really were dealing heroin out of his jeans, would it really make a difference to have him cool his heels for an hour or two--yes, supervised, with somebody keeping an eye on him at all times--to do things RIGHT, you know, with due process and all that other lame shit, instead of somebody deciding they know how to handle it because they saw
Law & Order?
I agree with SD on this one. (Contrary to the bag search at the mall thread) If someone strip searched MY DAUGHTER at school based solely on another MINOR's say so.... for ibuprofen????? There would be major issues for THAT person. I'd show how we do a strip search. effin asshats.
I think that taking a 13-year-old honor student and destroying her faith in how the system is supposed to work is a heavy price to pay for supposed safety. If you read the second article, you will note that schools now have more powers than the police. Students in schools, which they are forced to go to by law, seem to have about the same rights prison inmates.
We used to have civics classes in school to instill respect for law and a regard for the Consitution. Now we are getting our students used to the idea that they must give up their rights to remain safe.
We are not talking about subduing a violent student. We are not talking even about a weapons search, or even a search for a 'controlled substance'. We are talking about a strip search for prescription strength ibuprofin based on hearsay.
By that standard, any citizen could be searched at any time just by having someone point to them and say 'I think he is holding drugs'.
Now if someone wants to cordon off a slice of country and make a reservation where people who wish to sign away most of their constitutional rights and those of their children in exchange for 'safety' can go, then do so. Until then please do not try to water down my constitution in exchange for a false sense of security.
BTW, just out of curiosity, what would they have done if the girl refused to be strip searched?
Students in schools, which they are forced to go to by law, seem to have about the same rights prison inmates.
Sure seems that way, doesn't it?
A few years ago, our older son was "written up" at High School. The charge? Coming to school under the influence ... OF NICOTINE.
That's right, a legal substance which the kid was old enough to smoke. They couldn't pop him for having tobacco on him (tobacco-free campus) so they tried to say that since he had smoked a cigarette on the way to school (in his own private vehicle) that he had come to school "under the influence".
These are strange times we live in.
Re-arranging deckchairs on the Titanic.
Reason #11,795,322 to homeschool.
I did homeschool our second son. No way was I going to send him to that HS. The place is weird ... during the day all of the outside doors are locked. There is a panel in the office which monitors each door. There is one door by which one can enter the school; it opens into an office where you must transact your business. You aren't allowed into the school itself.
Leaving aside for the moment the fact that this specific case was not about any illegal drug, yeah, I'd still have a problem with it. If they really have reason to believe the kid has drugs hidden on their body, then I expect them to call the police. I also expect them to call me.
[COLOR="Red"]Who knew it was not about illegal drugs till they discovered it was ibuprophen? I'd guess the school had no idea what 'drugs' the child had till they'd found them.[/COLOR]
So... you don't think the cavity search is wrong, you just don't think it would yield results often enough to be worth the trouble?
[COLOR="red"]I don't think it's appropriate, but I also don't think it'd yield anything 99.9% of the time.[/COLOR]
More power to you. In this country, however, we have, or had, something called the Fourth Amendment. And I've had it up to here with moronic "zero tolerance" policies. If your son really were dealing heroin out of his jeans, would it really make a difference to have him cool his heels for an hour or two--yes, supervised, with somebody keeping an eye on him at all times--to do things RIGHT, you know, with due process and all that other lame shit, instead of somebody deciding they know how to handle it because they saw Law & Order?
[COLOR="red"]I don't think it's anything to do with who watched what TV show. It might just have been a school trying to save a child from having to deal with police and other authorities. Perhaps this whole situation has been blown out of proportion by the usual suspects screaming about rights being violated when all they were trying to do was protect the child herself and the rest of the student population. Why didn't she just turn the pills over rather than needing to be strip searched?[/COLOR]
From the article:
In the case before the court, a vice principal at an Arizona middle school in 2003 told a nurse and an aide to take student Savana Redding to an office and to search her and her underwear to see if she was hiding the pills.
She had nothing to hide, and she and her mother sued Safford school officials on grounds that they had subjected her to an "unreasonable search."
It looks as though it wasn't a case of "turn the pills over" but hearsay that she had some hidden in her underwear.
Also:
The vice principal in this case had been told that some students had pills, and that they were to be passed around at lunchtime. Based on that report, "he was entitled to search anyplace where contraband might reasonably be found," said Matthew Wright, the district's lawyer.
Justice Antonin Scalia asked if that applied to a "body-cavity search."
Wright replied that no school official would undertake such a search, but he insisted that it would be legal.
That makes me uneasy.
Something needs to be done about drugs in school. So it turned out to be nothing this time, but how bout next time when they do find cocain or heroin?
I just told my local police that you have kiddy porn. Your police will arrest you, take your family away, strip search you looking for porn in body cavities, and ... well something must be done about kiddy porn. Meanwhile, reality:
... a girl with no prior record was strip searched based on hearsay from a fellow student. The drug in question was ibuprofin.
She was a kid. Therefore she must be hiding drug in her cunt? After all, something must be done about humans taking ibuprofen. We must protect the Tylenol industry?
There's got to be more to this story to get to the Supreme Court.
"How is a school administrator supposed to know?" Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. asked. "He sees a white pill and doesn't know if it is something terribly harmful, even deadly, or if it's prescription-strength ibuprofen."
If he saw the pill he should know what it was, but from what I've read he saw nothing and was working on hearsay.
She won last year before the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, which ruled that the strip-search of an eighth-grader was unreasonable and unconstitutional and said that school officials who ordered the search were liable for damages.
That's how it got to the Supremes.
I just told my local police that you have kiddy porn. Your police will arrest you, take your family away, strip search you looking for porn in body cavities, and ... well something must be done about kiddy porn.
They can do whatever they like looking for whatever illegal contraband they might think I have. I have nothing to hide.
It strikes me that the authority of the school should be for educational matters, not police matters. If the vice principal was concerned that the girl was carrying something illegal, he should have involved the police.
I was surprised to find out that "innocent until proven guilty" does not apply to minors WRT drug crimes. One kid can claim another was using drugs and the first kid can be arrested based on that. I found that out a few years ago.
Fucking disgraceful. How dare they treat that child in such a cavalier fashion? There is no justification for this. None whatsoever. Can you imagine if an employer attempted to enforce an on the spot strip search of an employee because a co-worker said they'd seen them with some white pills? What would you do, as said employee? Would you go off quietly to be strip searched on the basis of an unfounded allegation, or would you refuse?
Wtf do you do if you're 13? Stand up for your civil liberties against people who have legal power of enforcement over you, in a place that you are legally obliged to attend?
Why, if they had suspicions, did they not contact the girl's parents and wait for them to attend? Why, when confronted with such an accusation against a girl with no previous record of trouble, did they not look for another explanation first (such as headache pills, ffs) and leave strip searching this young woman for a last fucking resort.
I am slightly shocked to hear anybody say this is in any way acceptable, justifiable, or proportionate to the situation.
There's a high incidence of drug use amongst healthcare workers. Should nurses be expected to submit to strip searches (or body cavity searches? ffs) on the basis of unsubstantiated accusations, and with no recourse to legal protection? It's high time we started treating children as full humans. They should have exactly the same rights to privacy and due process that any adult has.
[eta] Just as an aside, and stepping away from this girl's rights, what kind of educators treat their charges like this? Every single one of them should be ashamed of themselves. When did they allow themselves to cease being educators and become prison wardens? Where's their compassion, and regard for children? That they could leap so ungraciously to aggression and force, with a kid that's never caused them trouble...were they even seeing her? Did they even fucking look? Or have they just merged the whole student body into one big mass of trouble?
They can do whatever they like looking for whatever illegal contraband they might think I have. I have nothing to hide.
Out of interest, have you ever had your house searched by the police?
One of my closest friends was busted by the police (drug squad) on the basis of a 'malicious informant'. They found nothing; there was nothing to find. But they seriously broke the fuck out of his door. And they threw his things about with total disregard. Dragged out his drawers, emptied shit onto the floor. Went through his dirty laundry basket. Pulled the backs off his speakers (common place to hide stuff), went through the bins outside, everywhere, looking for evidence of cultivation or possession.
He wasn't in at the time. He arrived back at his house to find them just finished. They gave him a form to sign and apologised for the inconvenience and off they went. Having ransacked his house, busted the door, dismantled his speakers, rifled through his personal possessions and thrown his stuff on the floor. Having nothing to hide doesn't in any way protect you from having your privacy violated. An enforced search is an enforced search. It happens without warning, and for those who are searched it's often quite a shocking experience.
In theory, there needs to be more than one thing pointing to a suspect for a search to go ahead; but my friend had the (mis)fortune to live on a block where people had been known to grow. His address was the second factor.
I see nothing in the article that says that the police were involved. Since when does one private citizen have the right to tell another private citizen to strip?
Since when does one private citizen have the right to tell another private citizen to strip?
When the private citizen is really hot?
(sorry, couldn't help self - continue with serious debate)
Students have no rights; never have. They can search your person and your belongings any fucking time they want. It's one of the reason I hated the school authorities when I was dealing with them as a parent. I'll not be surprised if the SC overturns at all.
Unfortunately children are not strictly speaking 'private citizens'. They are the children of private citizens. Their position in law is highly problematic.
I have nothing to hide.
So why are people required to wear clothes? What is this nothing you have to hide?
So why are people required to wear clothes? What is this nothing you have to hide?
oh god, oh, god - do NOT answer this....oh god, oh god.....
Wait until it comes out that the strip searcher is a lesbian pedophile!
Why, if they had suspicions, did they not contact the girl's parents and wait for them to attend?
It has been my experience that the school authorities see parents as either collaborating with the student to get away with something, or utterly clueless as to what their child is up to.
[eta] Just as an aside, and stepping away from this girl's rights, what kind of educators treat their charges like this? Every single one of them should be ashamed of themselves. When did they allow themselves to cease being educators and become prison wardens? Where's their compassion, and regard for children? That they could leap so ungraciously to aggression and force, with a kid that's never caused them trouble...were they even seeing her? Did they even fucking look? Or have they just merged the whole student body into one big mass of trouble?
Seems to me that it is a reaction to the way things have been going in schools. With drugs and violence creeping into the system, educators are clamping down on what they can control in an effort to contain the 'bad stuff'. I don't think they are going about it the right way. I think you are right, they see the entire student body as "the enemy". Certainly they are more about the business of 'managing the students' than they are teaching.
I don't blame them 100%. In my area, a lot of this reactionary behavior is exacerbated by overanxious parents. The school is doing what the parents want them to do, they think they are making the school 'safe'. I'm glad my kids are all finished with school.
Hijack: this sort of thing has happened to the police force here also. Instead of referring to residents as "citizens", we've become "civilians". It's unfortunate.
Regarding the strip search of the student: I hope that school authorities ' 'police' powers aren't broadened by this ruling. Law enforcement officers go through training regarding lawful search & seizure; school administrators do not, so cannot know when it is lawful and when it is not (and don't always get it right).
So they strip searched a MINOR because they thought she had a LEGAL drug hidden INSIDE her body? WTF?
If I was her parents I would sue the hell out of that school.
If they were law enforcement officers, I'm pretty sure they'd have had an obligation to involve the parents prior to strip searching.
So they strip searched a MINOR because they thought she had a LEGAL drug hidden INSIDE her body? WTF?
If I was her parents I would sue the hell out of that school.
See post #1 :right:
She and her mother sued Safford school officials
Out of interest, have you ever had your house searched by the police?
I don't know about the rest of them, but a cop I know enjoys this aspect of his job immensely. It's a big joke (about the state he'll leave it in) whenever someone sends him in the house to look for something.
See post #1 :right:
And I would have done the exact same thing.
Out of interest, have you ever had your house searched by the police?
No, but I've had the house trashed by thieves. I don't think there's a whole lot of difference.
I was once reported for living in a defacto relationship (with Daryl) while getting student allowance and other benefits, by some anonymous person. This was a big problem because at the time I wasn't actually living with Daryl, and our relationship wasn't such that I could ask him to help financially while it was sorted out. Never the less, the authorities took the word of some 'informant' over mine for a period of time.
While it was a problem for me, ultimately I am not complaining because so many people actually do rort the system and need to be disconnected.
This goes to my belief that in some circumstances it's better to be safe than sorry.
So why are people required to wear clothes? What is this nothing you have to hide?
People wear clothes to keep the weather out tw. Modesty was just a side effect of that need.
Some people really need to wear MORE clothes
People wear clothes to keep the weather out tw. Modesty was just a side effect of that need.
I'm thinking I need some ibuprofen. Another fantasy achieved - strip search. Does modesty increase the thrill? Oh to be a student again.
But wait - I do have something to hide. And since inspired by your post, alot. Never mind.
If he saw the pill he should know what it was, but from what I've read he saw nothing and was working on hearsay.
I was wrong according to the article I read today. The principal actually did see the pills and knew the were ibuprofen before the hearsay that they belonged to this girl.
So he ordered the strip search actually knowing it was ibuprofen, not an illegal substance. Stone the fucker. :mad:
let's sum up: some people are fascists and some people like to strip search OTHER people.
I belong to the latter. HOWEVER (and this is HUGE) I do NOT wish to search anyone,anytime, ever, who is not at least 35 years old. AT LEAST.
some people are crazy fuckheads. some people think the word of a co-worker or student is more believeable than the word of their OWN child. I pity, pity, pity those parents.
I know my own children. I would trust them, not the word of some whoever.
Stone the fucker.
Yup. Right. Forking. Now.
Just thought of something - Is he still working? working there?
Damn, just damn.
I was wrong according to the article I read today. The principal actually did see the pills and knew the were ibuprofen before the hearsay that they belonged to this girl.
So he ordered the strip search actually knowing it was ibuprofen, not an illegal substance. Stone the fucker. :mad:
In school, drugs are drugs. You can't have legal or illegal drugs on your person. You get the same punishment for either. I got in trouble in elementary school once because my mom gave me one of those lollipops that help sore throats before I left. I always got to school long before class started, so I was finishing it in the hallway and a teacher told me to get rid of the candy. I told her what it was and she informed me that I needed to throw it away immediately and not bring any in ever again. Luckily for me, that teacher knew me very well...otherwise I'm sure I'd have a record for substance abuse or something at this point.
It was a common joke among us friends in the marching band that we had to hide our band bag (the backpack which holds anything and everything) because it had ibuprofen, midol, and excedrine for when we needed them.
Actually, in our school you're not allowed to carry water bottles either. It's worth detention I think? We all used to do it anyway. Supposedly kids used to put vodka in the bottles or other clear alcohols...and "teachers can't tell the difference". We decided it was worth the risk. Anyone wanted to tell me I was breaking a law, and they could test any part of me or the water bottle that they would like...they weren't going to find anything, and I was tired of passing out from heat exhaustion in class because some stupid teacher got her jollies off by refusing me a bathroom/water fountain break.
Similarly sick of going to the nurse and being told she only had baby tylenol to give me for a migrane...no thanks I'll hide some excedrine in my purse.
Ahh you are all a bunch of sissies. What are you gonna say when they approve of extraordinary rendition and
the five techniques? I'm sure it's just a matter of time.
Just a matter of time...
That's weird about the water bottles Razz although I guess they had cause. Over here all the kids are required to take water bottles to school. Mainly because of the climate and the fact that it's usually pretty warm.
Anyway, I can't imagine they'd ever ban water bottles here in schools.
In school, drugs are drugs. You can't have legal or illegal drugs on your person. You get the same punishment for either.
I realize that, but once he was sure it was ibuprofen and not acid or smack, it hardly calls for a strip search based on hearsay. There was no impetus not to wait for the police or parents to be involved. Flail 'em.
Oh, I entirely agree. This thread just touched a nerve, since I've not been out of high school long enough yet. I'm still bitter about having to worry whether or not I remembered to take the headache pills out of my purse from over the weekend. And don't even get me started on "weapons"...grr
Only Clarence Thomas thought strip searching a girl for ibuprofen was OK.
Unfortunately, seven justices thought this wasn't obvious, and ruled that the school administrators couldn't be sued.
Amazing. Clarence Thomas did not follow Scalia's lead. He finds nothing wrong with student strip searches without due cause? Even Scalia found that unacceptable.
I don't think school administrators should be strip searching kids even with due cause. If anyone is strip searching children, it should be cops with due cause and warrants.
If anyone is strip searching children, it should be cops with due cause and warrants.
Remember the attitude of that time. Torture, international kidnapping, and imprisonment without judicial review were what any good patriot advocated. What's a little strip search and cavity investigation? Acceptable back then.
Amazing. Clarence Thomas did not follow Scalia's lead. He finds nothing wrong with student strip searches without due cause? Even Scalia found that unacceptable.
I'm sure Justice Thomas spent a great deal of time reenacting the case in his mind. A young female student forced to strip in front of an authority figure....
After he cleaned himself off, he then voted that this was acceptable.:right:
I don't think school administrators should be strip searching kids even with due cause. If anyone is strip searching children, it should be cops with due cause and warrants.
Well said.
2nded or seconded - however you state that.
I'm sure Justice Thomas spent a great deal of time reenacting the case in his mind. A young female student forced to strip in front of an authority figure....
After he cleaned himself off, he then voted that this was acceptable.:right:
:3_eyes: