What is the purpose for income tax?

lookout123 • Mar 20, 2009 6:14 pm
This has been bugging me for a little while. The argument over who should pay what percentage of their income to the government goes back and forth. I hear that the wealthy should pay more. I hear the working class should get more breaks. I hear each person should pay his fair share.Most people have only arbitrary answers when asked to define wealthy, working class, and fair share. The strawmen get dragged out. Warren Buffett pays less tax than his secretary is a popular if misleading one. What bothers me is that people don't seem to stop and think why those taxes are collected or how we came to accept the numbers we currently use.

My understanding is that income taxes are collected from the people of the United States to fund the activities of the United States government. It would seem to me that the idea of having a budget that is anything other than balanced is just plain idiotic. Our government is a non-profit organization so it should collect only what it needs to run the programs and possibly a little extra for a rainy day fund. When receipts go down either expenses have to go down or income tax rates must increase. That is just basic common sense, but we don't give it much consideration.

It seems that we have come to accept a budgetary process that is completely disjointed. The government spends whatever it wants in ever increasing amounts without any real consideration of where the money comes from. Programs are started and empires are expanded as the political figures do their dance with each side giving misleading soundbytes to garner support. Then to actually fund the budget the government establishes arbitrary tax rates that aren't based on anything other than gaining votes. When is the last time someone actually divided the total expenses and divided that number up to match up against available taxpayers?

I hear that our goal is fairness in the tax system. Is taking a disproportionately large percentage of money from a disproportionately small number of people really fair or does it just feel good? Does it really make sense to have a progressive tax system that comes packed with loopholes to allow the people we say we want to pay more to actually pay less? Are the tax tables really designed to offset government expenses or merely to take money from the rich and give it to the poor? It doesn't really succeed at either.

The question in all of this is simply, are taxes a means to fund necessary functions of government or are they just a way to play Robin Hood?
Beestie • Mar 20, 2009 6:59 pm
lookout123;547617 wrote:
The question in all of this is simply, are taxes a means to fund necessary functions of government or are they just a way to play Robin Hood?
The government has no conscience. Just an appetite and the will to survive.

Its never been about fairness or wealth redistribution. Its allways been about hunger and preserving one's political future. Nothing more, nothing less.
Bullitt • Mar 20, 2009 7:01 pm
I'm right with you lookout. It bothers me when people want the government to solve all of their problems and think nothing of the fact that the government is so inefficient with our tax dollars it's absurd. For example, lets compare the government with Habitat for Humanity (personal bias, one of my favorite NGO's). According to the BBB website, Habitat "Uses of Funds as a % of Total Expenses:
Programs: 81% Fund Raising: 15% Administrative: 4%". That's 81% of all $$ given to them that goes directly into the work they offer as an organization. Granted the workers who help build the houses are volunteers which helps maintain these percentages, but lets be real who do you think is doing a better job per $ given to help the genuinely needy have quality shelter and dignity?
TheMercenary • Mar 20, 2009 7:04 pm
I'll take Robin Hood for 50 LO.
TGRR • Mar 21, 2009 1:59 am
lookout123;547617 wrote:


My understanding is that income taxes are collected from the people of the United States to fund the activities of the United States government.


And the purpose of the government is to hand no-bid contracts to people like Halliburton, and to give no-strings bailouts to failures.
TGRR • Mar 21, 2009 2:00 am
Beestie;547619 wrote:
The government has no conscience. Just an appetite and the will to survive.


Oddly enough, you can say the same thing about a corporation.
TheMercenary • Mar 21, 2009 3:19 am
TGRR;547705 wrote:
And the purpose of the government is to hand no-bid contracts to people like Halliburton,

There actually was no problem with this at the beginning of the war. Later it was a problem.
xoxoxoBruce • Mar 21, 2009 4:26 am
Personal Income tax is only half the picture.
2008 projections
1,146 billion - individual income taxes
275 billion - corporate income taxes
906 billion - social security taxes
81 billion - excise taxes
25 billion - estate and gift taxes
25 billion - customs duties
47 billion - miscellaneous receipts
TOTAL - 2,506 billion


But personal income tax rates are subject to checks and balances.

The poor ain't got no money - moot

The middle class have lots of votes - check

The rich kick in more campaign funds - balance

Ain't easy being a politician. :haha:
Beestie • Mar 21, 2009 11:29 am
TGRR;547706 wrote:
Oddly enough, you can say the same thing about a corporation.

True, but a corporation doesn't have police power.
Pico and ME • Mar 21, 2009 11:41 am
Beestie;547768 wrote:
True, but a corporation doesn't have police power.


Yes they do...they borrow the governments.
DanaC • Mar 21, 2009 7:50 pm
Pico and ME;547770 wrote:
Yes they do...they borrow the governments.



Ftw.
TGRR • Mar 21, 2009 9:28 pm
TheMercenary;547720 wrote:
There actually was no problem with this at the beginning of the war. Later it was a problem.


No bid contracts are ALWAYS a problem.
xoxoxoBruce • Mar 22, 2009 2:29 am
Usually, but sometimes no-bid follow on contracts are practical and expedient.
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2009 9:36 am
xoxoxoBruce;547984 wrote:
Usually, but sometimes no-bid follow on contracts are practical and expedient.

Which is exactly what they were in the case of Haliburton at the time. Same for another independent contracting organizations and companies that had been in the business of supplying services to the military for years. There is a lot of ignorance and parroting of complaints about how this system works and how these companies, smartly, positioned themselves to do the good work that they did. The abuses cannot be ignored and neither can the good.
Redux • Mar 22, 2009 10:48 am
TheMercenary;548075 wrote:
Which is exactly what they were in the case of Haliburton at the time. Same for another independent contracting organizations and companies that had been in the business of supplying services to the military for years. There is a lot of ignorance and parroting of complaints about how this system works and how these companies, smartly, positioned themselves to do the good work that they did. The abuses cannot be ignored and neither can the good.

Which is why it was unfortunate that several Republican Senators blocked the passage of the Contractors and Federal Spending Accountability Act last year....it passed in the House on a bi-partisan voice vote.
TGRR • Mar 22, 2009 3:46 pm
xoxoxoBruce;547984 wrote:
Usually, but sometimes no-bid follow on contracts are practical and expedient.


Expedience is the enemy of integrity.
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2009 5:22 pm
TGRR;548159 wrote:
Expedience is the enemy of integrity.


Not in the case of the early no-bid contracts which supported the early operations of the wars.
Redux • Mar 22, 2009 5:30 pm
TheMercenary;548178 wrote:
Not in the case of the early no-bid contracts which supported the early operations of the wars.


If I recall, one of the first Halliburton no-bid contracts, to import gas from Kuwait to support the early operation of the war, was found by the Defense Contracting Auditing Agency to have overcharged by $millions.
TGRR • Mar 22, 2009 5:31 pm
TheMercenary;548178 wrote:
Not in the case of the early no-bid contracts which supported the early operations of the wars.


The contracts didn't support the wars. In fact, they undermined them.

And the means don't justify the ends.
TGRR • Mar 22, 2009 5:33 pm
Redux;548182 wrote:
If I recall, one of the early Halliburton no-bid contracts, to import gas from Kuwait, was found by the Defense Contracting Auditing Agency to have overcharged by $millions.


Then there's all that glorious construction done by KB&R, etc...one soldier electrocuted in the shower, feces from bad piping dripping down through light fixtures to lower floors, etc.

KB&R employees leaving sandwiches with mayo on them out overnight, then serving them to soldiers, etc.

Yeah. That really helped the war effort.
Redux • Mar 22, 2009 5:34 pm
TGRR;548183 wrote:
The contracts didn't support the wars. In fact, they undermined them.

And the means don't justify the ends.


But they resulted in the value of Cheney's stock options in Halliburton increasing by more than 3000 percent.
TGRR • Mar 22, 2009 5:43 pm
Redux;548186 wrote:
But they resulted in the value of Cheney's stock options in Halliburton increasing by more than 3000 percent.


And there you have explained the inexplicable. Why did we have a war in Iraq?

Oh, yeah.
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2009 5:43 pm
TGRR;548183 wrote:
The contracts didn't support the wars. In fact, they undermined them.

And the means don't justify the ends.

Not in my experience. Haliburton and KBR have positioned themselves to service many aspects of military deployments in peace and war. They were standing at the door when the wars began and they did a damm good job of doing what they do best, supplying the needs and infrastructure for the deploying troops. There were no other companies to compete with them because they did not exist.
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2009 5:45 pm
Image
TGRR;548191 wrote:
And there you have explained the inexplicable. Why did we have a war in Iraq?

Oh, yeah.
TGRR • Mar 22, 2009 6:19 pm
TheMercenary;548193 wrote:
Image



Meh. Appeal to ridicule.

You have nothing to say. At least nothing worth listening to.
TGRR • Mar 22, 2009 6:20 pm
TheMercenary;548192 wrote:
Not in my experience. Haliburton and KBR have positioned themselves to service many aspects of military deployments in peace and war. They were standing at the door when the wars began and they did a damm good job of doing what they do best, supplying the needs and infrastructure for the deploying troops. There were no other companies to compete with them because they did not exist.


Sorry, didn't read. I hope you didn't put much thought into it.

TGRR,
Not interested in dealing with your bullshit (see above) at the moment.
Redux • Mar 22, 2009 6:36 pm
TheMercenary;548192 wrote:
Not in my experience. Haliburton and KBR have positioned themselves to service many aspects of military deployments in peace and war. They were standing at the door when the wars began and they did a damm good job of doing what they do best, supplying the needs and infrastructure for the deploying troops. There were no other companies to compete with them because they did not exist.


From DCAA, GAO and CPA audits....
[INDENT]In December 2003, a DCAA draft audit reported that Halliburton overcharged the Defense Department by $61 million to import gasoline into Iraq from Kuwait through September 30, 2003.

On December 31, 2003, a DCAA “Flash Report” audit found “significant” and “systemic” deficiencies in the way Halliburton estimates and validates costs. According to the DCAA audit, Halliburton repeatedly violated the Federal Acquisition Regulation and and submitted a $2.7 billion proposal that “did not contain current, accurate, and complete data regarding subcontract costs.”

On January 13, 2004, DCAA concluded that Halliburton’s deficiencies “bring into question [Halliburton’s] ability to consistently produce well-supported proposals that are acceptable as a basis for negotiation of fair and reasonable prices”

In a May 13, 2004, audit, DCAA reported “several deficiencies” in Halliburton’s billing system that resulted in billings to the government that “are not prepared in accordance with applicable laws and regulations and contract terms.” DCAA also found “system deficiencies resulting in material invoicing misstatements that are not prevented, detected and/or corrected in a timely manner.”

On June 25, 2004, the CPA IG found that, as a result of poor oversight, Halliburton charged U.S. taxpayers for unauthorized and unnecessary expenses at the Kuwait Hilton Hotel. According to the IG, the overcharges would have amounted to $3.6 million per year.

In July 2004, GAO found ineffective planning, inadequate cost control, and insufficient training of contract management officials under LOGCAP in Iraq. GAO reported that, when Halliburton acted as a middleman for the operation of dining halls, costs were over 40% higher.

In an August 16, 2004, memorandum, DCAA “identified significant unsupported costs” submitted by KBR, a Halliburton subsidiary, and found “numerous, systemic issues . . . with KBR’s estimates.”...When DCAA examined seven LOGCAP task orders with a combined proposed value of $4.33 billion, auditors identified unsupported costs totaling $1.82 billion[/INDENT]
Hmmmm....Merc's "experience" or federal audits of Halliburton contracts in the first 18 months of US occupation.

You decide.
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2009 6:40 pm
I didn't say there weren't problems, I said they did a great job of providing the services they set themselves up to do at the out set of the wars. Abuses occurred as the time ticked away. And the system was set up to allow them to happen.
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2009 6:42 pm
TGRR;548204 wrote:
Sorry, didn't read. I hope you didn't put much thought into it.

TGRR,
Not interested in dealing with your bullshit (see above) at the moment.


Image
Redux • Mar 22, 2009 6:47 pm
I didn't say there weren't problems, I said they did a great job of providing the services they set themselves up to do at the out set of the wars

I dont think overcharging the govt by $tens of millions and not providing documentation for other costs in the range of $hundreds of millions af the outset of the war is doing a "great job."

... And the system was set up to allow them to happen.

I hope you would be supportive of Obama's proposal to begin to address the systemic problems...or at least view it with an open mind:
[indent]...I further direct the Director of OMB, in collaboration with the aforementioned officials and councils, and with input from the public, to develop and issue by September 30, 2009, Government-wide guidance to:

(1) govern the appropriate use and oversight of sole-source and other types of noncompetitive contracts and to maximize the use of full and open competition and other competitive procurement processes;

(2) govern the appropriate use and oversight of all contract types, in full consideration of the agency's needs, and to minimize risk and maximize the value of Government contracts generally, consistent with the regulations to be promulgated pursuant to section 864 of Public Law 110-417;

(3) assist agencies in assessing the capacity and ability of the Federal acquisition workforce to develop, manage, and oversee acquisitions appropriately; and

(4) clarify when governmental outsourcing for services is and is not appropriate, consistent with section 321 of Public Law 110-417 (31 U.S.C. 501 note).

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Memorandum-for-the-Heads-of-Executive-Departments-and-Agencies-Subject-Government-Contracting/
[/indent]
I dont expect it to fix the systemic problems but its a start and I dont recall such proposed contracting reform by the previous administration
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2009 6:53 pm
In that situation I think he is right on target. I don't believe it will impede the creativity of those who will take advantage of the loop holes created by the democratic stimulus bill.
TGRR • Mar 22, 2009 7:03 pm
TheMercenary;548217 wrote:
I didn't say there weren't problems, I said they did a great job of providing the services they set themselves up to do at the out set of the wars. Abuses occurred as the time ticked away. And the system was set up to allow them to happen.


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TGRR • Mar 22, 2009 7:04 pm
I am always willing to help Mercenary destroy a thread.

:3eye:
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2009 7:13 pm
Oh it hasn't been destroyed at all.
TGRR • Mar 22, 2009 7:29 pm
TheMercenary;548229 wrote:
Oh it hasn't been destroyed at all.


Give it time, little fella. After all, if you can post ridiculous appeals to ignorance and appeals to ridicule, I can post big walls of text to make my point.

I wanna be JUST LIKE YOU, Merc! :3eye:
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2009 7:30 pm
What walls of text?
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2009 7:31 pm
TGRR;548242 wrote:
Give it time, little fella.


Are you talking to that little thing in your pants again? :lol2:
TGRR • Mar 22, 2009 7:32 pm
TheMercenary;548244 wrote:
What walls of text?


Image
TGRR • Mar 22, 2009 7:33 pm
TheMercenary;548246 wrote:
Are you talking to that little thing in your pants again? :lol2:


Image
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2009 7:34 pm
Oh cool! a red [COLOR="Red"]x[/COLOR].
TGRR • Mar 22, 2009 7:34 pm
TheMercenary;548251 wrote:
Oh cool! a red [COLOR="Red"]x[/COLOR].


Maybe you suck at the internet.
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2009 7:35 pm
Naw, just some great filters. I don't want your job.
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2009 7:36 pm
TGRR;548252 wrote:
Maybe you suck at the internet.

:rolleyes:
BDS • Mar 22, 2009 7:37 pm
TGRR;548252 wrote:
Maybe you suck at the internet.


He definitely sucks at the internet, I can see it.
TGRR • Mar 22, 2009 7:41 pm
TheMercenary;548253 wrote:
Naw, just some great filters.


Image
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2009 7:44 pm
Cute mom.
BDS • Mar 22, 2009 7:44 pm
Merc, you definitely suck at the internet. I can see all of Roger's pics.
TGRR • Mar 22, 2009 7:45 pm
TheMercenary;548263 wrote:
Cute mom.


That's your mom?

What a coincidence. :)
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2009 7:46 pm
The only solution to the wealth redistribution program of the Obama administration:

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2009 7:46 pm
TGRR;548265 wrote:
That's your mom?

What a coincidence. :)

:lol2:
TGRR • Mar 22, 2009 7:47 pm
TheMercenary;548267 wrote:
The only solution to the wealth redistribution program of the Obama administration:

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer


Fairtax. :lol:

Good luck with that, Jethro.
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2009 7:49 pm
Thank you.

It beats the weath redistribution plans now in place and being further developed hands down.

What you got Opie?
TGRR • Mar 22, 2009 7:51 pm
TheMercenary;548273 wrote:
Thank you.

It beats the weath redistribution plans now in place and being further developed hands down.

What you got Opie?


Let us know when that passes congress, okay?

:lol:

Also, it's funny watching you poke up your arse for some rich people to get busy in.

Just saying.
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2009 7:54 pm
Oh, I thought you had something of substance to bring to the table.

In that case:

Image
TGRR • Mar 22, 2009 7:57 pm
TheMercenary;548279 wrote:
Oh, I thought you had something of substance to bring to the table.


I tried that earlier, and you decided you like appeal to ridicule better.

So now I'm just going to post like you do, Merc. We'll have fun.
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2009 7:58 pm
Ok. :D Whateva.
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2009 7:59 pm
What is the FairTax plan?
The FairTax plan is a comprehensive proposal that replaces all federal income and payroll based taxes with an integrated approach including a progressive national retail sales tax, a prebate to ensure no American pays federal taxes on spending up to the poverty level, dollar-for-dollar federal revenue neutrality, and, through companion legislation, the repeal of the 16th Amendment.

The FairTax Act (HR 25, S 296) is nonpartisan legislation. It abolishes all federal personal and corporate income taxes, gift, estate, capital gains, alternative minimum, Social Security, Medicare, and self-employment taxes and replaces them with one simple, visible, federal retail sales tax administered primarily by existing state sales tax authorities.

The FairTax taxes us only on what we choose to spend on new goods or services, not on what we earn. The FairTax is a fair, efficient, transparent, and intelligent solution to the frustration and inequity of our current tax system.

The FairTax:

Enables workers to keep their entire paychecks
Enables retirees to keep their entire pensions
Refunds in advance the tax on purchases of basic necessities
Allows American products to compete fairly
Brings transparency and accountability to tax policy
Ensures Social Security and Medicare funding
Closes all loopholes and brings fairness to taxation
Abolishes the IRS
We offer a library of information throughout this Web site about the features and benefits of the FairTax plan. Please explore!



The FairTax Five

The gloves are off as critics try to pick apart the FairTax. Trouble is, it's just a replay of the same five FairTax myths:

"The 23% rate is misleading. It's actually 30%"
Well, actually...
"It's not enforceable and evasion will be rampant"
Well, actually...
"It will not be revenue neutral at 23%"
Well, actually...
"The FairTax is not politically viable"
Well, actually...
"The FairTax is regressive and shifts the tax burden onto lower and middle income people"
Well, actually...

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=about_main
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2009 8:01 pm
Wait. We can't do that. We have to bail out the insurance and banking industry. Obama already spent the money we don't have.
BDS • Mar 22, 2009 8:03 pm
Tell me, Mercenary. Do you have another record? Besides "lol obama," I mean?
TGRR • Mar 22, 2009 8:07 pm
TheMercenary;548287 wrote:
What is the FairTax plan?


A: A way to get poor dumbasses to support the rich, in the rich's never-ending quest to cornhole the poor.

Fortunately, libertarians only make up 4% of the nation's voters, and then there's maybe another 5% total elsewhere who think it's a damn shame that the rich pay more money than poor people...

...so it's also a pipe dream.
TGRR • Mar 22, 2009 8:08 pm
TheMercenary;548288 wrote:
Wait. We can't do that. We have to bail out the insurance and banking industry. Obama already spent the money we don't have.



Bush, of course, had nothing to do with it.

:lol:

You're such a patsy.
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2009 8:10 pm
The "rich" already pay the majority of income taxes that support the poor. Maybe you didn't hear.

What's rich anyway?
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2009 8:11 pm
TGRR;548294 wrote:
Bush, of course, had nothing to do with it.

Really? That's not what I have read.
TGRR • Mar 22, 2009 8:13 pm
TheMercenary;548296 wrote:
The "rich" already pay the majority of income taxes that support the poor. Maybe you didn't hear.


Yeah, and you wish to do away with that.

Because the rich will be grateful. Or something.

:lol:
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2009 8:17 pm
No, because everyone will pay their fair share and the loop holes would be eliminated. Pretty obvious you haven't read much about it. You really should try reading some of it and stop getting your information from George Soros and Huffington Post.
TGRR • Mar 22, 2009 8:18 pm
TheMercenary;548306 wrote:
No, because everyone will pay their fair share and the loop holes would be eliminated.


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

You really ARE a sucker.
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2009 8:19 pm
For a better tax system? You betcha.
TGRR • Mar 22, 2009 8:21 pm
TheMercenary;548312 wrote:
For a better tax system? You betcha.


Because of course they didn't figure out how to fuck you before they proposed it.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

No, really. Do you know what your tax rate would have to be, if the mode income carried the same rate as the highest income?

Do you even know what the mode income IS these days? Of course you don't. Limbaugh and Boortz told you what to think, and here you are.
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2009 8:23 pm
Mode is not really all that important in this plan.
BDS • Mar 22, 2009 8:25 pm
So it's a plan now?
TGRR • Mar 22, 2009 8:25 pm
TheMercenary;548316 wrote:
Mode is not really all that important in this plan.


HAW HAW!

No, mode is only the unadjusted income that most Americans make (as opposed to average income).

No, that would hardly be important under a "fair tax".

:lol:

Silly me, thinking you'd know what "mode" means in the first place.
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2009 8:27 pm
You are right it is not important. Everyone pays the same, regardless of income. The only fair tax plan is one where everyone pays in equally in relation to the income made.
TGRR • Mar 22, 2009 8:30 pm
TheMercenary;548321 wrote:
You are right it is not important. Everyone pays the same, regardless of income. The only fair tax plan is one where everyone pays in equally in relation to the income made.


So you're basically forcing the middle class into the working class, the working class into the lower class, and the lower class onto the street....And you approve of this rampant buggering you are DEMANDING that you receive, so that Warren Buffet can afford another layer of gold on his yacht.

You're a sheep of the first order, Merc. :lol:
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2009 8:32 pm
TGRR;548325 wrote:
So you're basically forcing the middle class into the working class, the working class into the lower class, and the lower class onto the street....And you approve of this rampant buggering you are DEMANDING that you receive, so that Warren Buffet can afford another layer of gold on his yacht.

Man you have some serious delusions there. There is no evidence that any of those fantasies you have are going to occur under a fair tax plan.
TGRR • Mar 22, 2009 8:35 pm
TheMercenary;548330 wrote:
Man you have some serious delusions there. There is no evidence that any of those fantasies you have are going to occur under a fair tax plan.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Of course not. The fact that Merc can't do simple math notwithstanding.

:lol:
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2009 8:37 pm
So far you have posted no math to support your dispute.
BDS • Mar 22, 2009 8:37 pm
Neither have you.
Besides, since when have any government numbers added up?
Sir_Simpletoon • Mar 22, 2009 8:38 pm
Neither have you.
Besides, since when did government numbers ever add up?
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2009 8:39 pm
Follow the links simpleton.
Sir_Simpletoon • Mar 22, 2009 8:41 pm
You didn't answer my question.
Also, maths means squat, quite frankly.
TGRR • Mar 22, 2009 8:45 pm
TheMercenary;548337 wrote:
So far you have posted no math to support your dispute.


The mode income of United States citizens is $19,980/year.

So tell me...what percentage of income would you like to hit with your "fair" tax that would still provide $2.6 trillion per year?
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2009 8:46 pm
Sir_Simpletoon;548349 wrote:
You didn't answer my question.
Also, maths means squat, quite frankly.
If you have another reliable source for data let us all in on it. All numbers are controlled by some body or organization. So the answer to your question is sure they add up. For those adding them. It doesn't mean you have to believe them. Let me get you a tin foil hat to go with your buddy.
TGRR • Mar 22, 2009 8:47 pm
...Bearing in mind that every working American's share would be $17,333.
TGRR • Mar 22, 2009 8:48 pm
So most working Americans get to try to live on $2,500/yr, so Merc's heroes can crap on solid gold toilets.
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2009 8:48 pm
TGRR;548352 wrote:
The mode income of United States citizens is $19,980/year.

So tell me...what percentage of income would you like to hit with your "fair" tax that would still provide $2.6 trillion per year?
I guess you never took statistics in college. Mode is a poor indicator when you have such extremes. Like your buddy said, who is going to believe your numbers?
Sir_Simpletoon • Mar 22, 2009 8:49 pm
You want to give me a tin foil hat? I'm not the one posting "lol obama" obsessively.

There's a difference between adding up, and making sense, also.
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2009 8:49 pm
TGRR;548355 wrote:
...Bearing in mind that every working American's share would be $17,333.
you obviously did not read about it.

That's cool.
TGRR • Mar 22, 2009 8:50 pm
TheMercenary;548357 wrote:
I guess you never took statistics in college. Mode is a poor indicator when you have such extremes. Like your buddy said, who is going to believe your numbers?


The BLS, for one, because that's where I got the numbers.

Mode is the ONLY important number, when you consider a flat or "fair" tax, because that's where most of your money will come from.

Have you EVER taken a basic math class? Ever? This is simple division we're talking about here.

But Boortz tells you everything is fine, so it's fine. Right?

:lol:
Sir_Simpletoon • Mar 22, 2009 8:50 pm
TheMercenary;548357 wrote:
I guess you never took statistics in college. Mode is a poor indicator when you have such extremes. Like your buddy said, who is going to believe your numbers?


Probably approximately the same number that'll believe yours.
TGRR • Mar 22, 2009 8:51 pm
TheMercenary;548361 wrote:
you obviously did not read about it.

That's cool.


You obviously never checked any of the numbers for yourself.

:lol:

Just keep on believing, hippie.

:lol:
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2009 8:52 pm
TGRR;548362 wrote:
The BLS, for one, because that's where I got the numbers.

Mode is the ONLY important number, when you consider a flat or "fair" tax, because that's where most of your money will come from.

According to whom? You? Now you have not really proven to be a reliable source.
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2009 8:53 pm
TGRR;548367 wrote:
You obviously never checked any of the numbers for yourself.

:lol:

Just keep on believing, hippie.

:lol:


First a "neocon", now a "hippie". Damm you are fickle bird.
TGRR • Mar 22, 2009 8:54 pm
TheMercenary;548372 wrote:
First a "neocon", now a "hippie". Damm you are fickle bird.


And you're a Koolaid-guzzling sheep.

Your point?
TGRR • Mar 22, 2009 8:55 pm
TheMercenary;548370 wrote:
According to whom? You? Now you have not really proven to be a reliable source.


What? You've never heard of the BLS?

http://www.bls.gov

Lightweight.
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2009 8:56 pm
TGRR;548374 wrote:
And you're a Koolaid-guzzling sheep.

Your point?
A neocon hippie koolaid-guzzling sheep? Wow this just keeps getting better. :lol2:

You are one angry person.
Sir_Simpletoon • Mar 22, 2009 8:57 pm
TheMercenary;548372 wrote:
First a "neocon", now a "hippie". Damm you are fickle bird.


I just love the way you pick up on the smallest details, while somehow ignoring the obvious questions.

Did they teach you that at school?
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2009 8:58 pm
TGRR;548376 wrote:
What? You've never heard of the BLS?

http://www.bls.gov

Lightweight.

I thought you didn't trust the government? So now you are going to quote the stats that you like?
TGRR • Mar 22, 2009 8:58 pm
Sir_Simpletoon;548379 wrote:
I just love the way you pick up on the smallest details, while somehow ignoring the obvious questions.

Did they teach you that at school?


Naw, he figured that one out watching Rush Limbaugh.

What can you expect?
TGRR • Mar 22, 2009 8:59 pm
TheMercenary;548381 wrote:
I thought you didn't trust the government? So now you are going to quote the stats that you like?


And your source got its numbers from...oh, yeah, Boortz's ass.
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2009 8:59 pm
Sir_Simpletoon;548379 wrote:
I just love the way you pick up on the smallest details, while somehow ignoring the obvious questions.

Did they teach you that at school?
Simple observation. Really not that hard. It comes from the boredom and apathy of reading these posts.
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2009 9:00 pm
TGRR;548382 wrote:
Naw, he figured that one out watching Rush Limbaugh.

Really? That sounds like a tw quote.
TGRR • Mar 22, 2009 9:00 pm
TheMercenary;548384 wrote:
Simple observation. Really not that hard. It comes from the boredom and apathy of reading these posts.


And the sheer pain of having your arse OWNED when you try to pass Boortz off as actual journalism.
Sir_Simpletoon • Mar 22, 2009 9:01 pm
TheMercenary;548384 wrote:
Simple observation. Really not that hard. It comes from the boredom and apathy of reading these posts.


Ah. So why do you still do it?
TGRR • Mar 22, 2009 9:01 pm
TheMercenary;548386 wrote:
Really?


I call 'em how I see 'em. You're a dittohead.
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2009 9:01 pm
TGRR;548383 wrote:
And your source got its numbers from...oh, yeah, Boortz's ass.


Really?:3_eyes:
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2009 9:01 pm
TGRR;548390 wrote:
I call 'em how I see 'em. You're a dittohead.

That another funny one. :lol2:
TGRR • Mar 22, 2009 9:02 pm
TheMercenary;548391 wrote:
Really?:3_eyes:


Apparently so.

Unless your argument is that Boortz has been meticulously tracking employment information for the last 30 years.
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2009 9:02 pm
Hey, you enjoy yourselves.
TGRR • Mar 22, 2009 9:02 pm
TheMercenary;548392 wrote:
That another funny one. :lol2:


It's kinda sad, really.
Sir_Simpletoon • Mar 22, 2009 9:02 pm
TheMercenary;548392 wrote:
That another funny one. :lol2:


I don't get it.
TGRR • Mar 22, 2009 9:03 pm
TheMercenary;548394 wrote:
Hey, you enjoy yourselves.


It's okay if you run.

Most of the sissies do.

:)
Sir_Simpletoon • Mar 22, 2009 9:05 pm
TGRR;548397 wrote:
It's okay if you run.

Most of the sissies do.

:)


But... But... We were ganging up on him, obviously.

:lol:
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2009 9:07 pm
TGRR;548397 wrote:
It's okay if you run.

Most of the sissies do.

:)
Wait, wait.... wait for it.


Neocon hippie Koolaid-guzzling sheep sissy. Man you got one imagination. You think all that up your self or did someone help you? Just wondering.:D
TGRR • Mar 22, 2009 9:08 pm
Sir_Simpletoon;548401 wrote:
But... But... We were ganging up on him, obviously.

:lol:


Republicans always whine like that.
TGRR • Mar 22, 2009 9:08 pm
TheMercenary;548405 wrote:
Wait, wait.... wait for it.


Neocon hippie Koolaid-guzzling sheep sissy. Man you got one imagination. You think all that up your self or did someone help you? Just wondering.:D


Quit your whimpering, Merc. You sound like a sniveling little bitch.
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2009 9:10 pm
TGRR;548407 wrote:
Quit your whimpering, Merc. You sound like a sniveling little bitch.

Ooooo a new one! now it is your lable of:


"Neocon hippie Koolaid-guzzling sheep sissy sniveling little bitch"

Man you are on a roll! :D
Sir_Simpletoon • Mar 22, 2009 9:11 pm
TheMercenary;548409 wrote:
Ooooo a new one! now it is your lable of:


"Neocon hippie Koolaid-guzzling sheep sissy sniveling little bitch"

Man you are on a roll! :D


Jesus fucking Christ. And I thought you had a spine. And a brain, briefly.
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2009 9:12 pm
It really is great entertainment. Really.
Sir_Simpletoon • Mar 22, 2009 9:13 pm
TheMercenary;548413 wrote:
It really is great entertainment. Really.


Ah. Isn't there sumfink on the TeeVee?
TGRR • Mar 22, 2009 9:14 pm
TheMercenary;548413 wrote:
It really is great entertainment. Really.


You could also go out behind your trailer and watch the bug zapper. :)
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2009 9:14 pm
Sir_Simpletoon;548417 wrote:
Ah. Isn't there sumfink on the TeeVee?


Couldn't tell you. Rarely turn it on. I am more of an NPR junkie.
classicman • Mar 22, 2009 9:14 pm
Wow this seems strangely familiar.... yeh that's it it looks like a thread, any thread from PD.
:yawn:
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2009 9:15 pm
TGRR;548419 wrote:
You could also go out behind your trailer and watch the bug zapper. :)


Haaaa! that was pretty funny. :D
Sir_Simpletoon • Mar 22, 2009 9:15 pm
classicman;548421 wrote:
Wow this seems strangely familiar.... yeh that's it it looks like a thread, any thread from PD.
:yawn:


Quite the little expert now, aren't you?
TGRR • Mar 22, 2009 9:16 pm
classicman;548421 wrote:
Wow this seems strangely familiar.... yeh that's it it looks like a thread, any thread from PD.
:yawn:


Oh, that was an insult, yes?

Boo hoo hoo! Classicman doesn't like Peedee! I shall cry all night!

:lol:
TGRR • Mar 22, 2009 9:17 pm
Sir_Simpletoon;548423 wrote:
Quite the little expert now, aren't you?


You think he's a troll from PD? I have my suspicions.
Sir_Simpletoon • Mar 22, 2009 9:19 pm
TGRR;548426 wrote:
You think he's a troll from PD? I have my suspicions.


Everyone's a troll from PD nowadays. It's the new craze, like Big Brother, or scene kids.
TGRR • Mar 22, 2009 9:20 pm
Sir_Simpletoon;548430 wrote:
Everyone's a troll from PD nowadays. It's the new craze, like Big Brother, or scene kids.


Damn kids. Always drinking their bootleg hootch and listening to the rock and the roll.
Sir_Simpletoon • Mar 22, 2009 9:22 pm
TGRR;548432 wrote:
Damn kids. Always drinking their bootleg hootch and listening to the rock and the roll.


Ah, they'll grow out of it eventually, I'm sure.
lookout123 • Apr 15, 2009 2:32 pm
Here's an interesting article from CNN discussing the spread of the tax burden.

A Tax Foundation survey found 56% of Americans think the amount of federal income tax they pay is too high. Those most likely to feel that way, according to the survey, include those making between $35,000 and $50,000.

But once the various tax breaks to which they're entitled are counted, the burdens of low- and middle-income tax filers as a group has been fairly low.

The Tax Policy Center estimates that for 2009, 43% of tax units (most of which are lower income households that may or may not file a return) will have no income tax liability or will have a negative income tax liability, meaning the government will actually pay them.

When measuring the tax burdens from income tax and payroll tax combined, the Tax Policy Center estimates nearly 12% of tax units will have zero or negative liability.

As for everyone else, it's likely their net income tax burden will not be high.

For example, in 2005, just under one in 10 filers owed more than 15% of their income in federal income tax, said Roberton Williams, senior fellow at the Tax Policy Center. Virtually all of them had incomes over $100,000. To top of page
CNN
TheMercenary • Apr 16, 2009 12:49 pm
The Tax Tea Party was big around here. Atlanta apparently had a huge turn out.
lookout123 • Apr 16, 2009 3:04 pm
I heard Phoenix did too. I exercised my right to be completely ignored by my government at home. I saved on gas and I got to watch Arsenal win their Champions' League quarter final.
xoxoxoBruce • Apr 17, 2009 1:09 am
For example, in 2005, just under one in 10 filers owed more than 15% of their income in federal income tax, said Roberton Williams, senior fellow at the Tax Policy Center. Virtually all of them had incomes over $100,000.
I must be the exception. :eyebrow:
classicman • Apr 17, 2009 8:48 am
me too. Anyone else get surprised by the "Alternative Minimum Tax" this year.
TheMercenary • Apr 17, 2009 10:41 am
classicman;557174 wrote:
me too. Anyone else get surprised by the "Alternative Minimum Tax" this year.
I have gotten hammered by it for the last 5 or 6 years in a row. I have just come to accept it as another way for them to steal money from me.
classicman • Apr 17, 2009 11:17 am
Well I was under the impression it was for "rich people" to pay. I am certainly not one of them, yet I had to pay it.
lookout123 • Apr 17, 2009 12:55 pm
The problem is that AMT was not moved with inflation so more and more taxpayers are caught in this net every year.
classicman • Apr 17, 2009 1:53 pm
I'm not even CLOSE to being in the "rich" Hell I'm much much closer to the bottom than the top.
Happy Monkey • Apr 17, 2009 11:43 pm
Did you use TurboTax? Are you sure you did it right? I did my sister's taxes, and the first time round it hit her with the AMT. I don't remember what we did to fix it (sorry), but I do think it was caught by the error checking.
classicman • Apr 19, 2009 11:35 am
Yes I used Turbo tax and did it numerous times. Error check did not pick up on it.