societal advances smackdown (0-1750 AD vs 1751 AD- present)
Would you say that the advances made in 'the world' prior to 1750 AD are more significant than those made in the last 259 years?
which would you point to as examples?
I don't think I'm smart enough to be here. This could be a great discussion though. I looked for some kind of timeline but had no luck.
No question we can kill more people in less time.
Would you say that the advances made in 'the world' prior to 1750 AD are more significant than those made in the last 259 years?
which would you point to as examples?
a) Why 1750?
b) Do you mean "the dawn of time to 1750" or "0 AD - 1750 AD"?
By advances, do you mean discoveries or inventions/creations?
you're on your own to interpret the question as it is phrased.
lol, That got you to change your usertitle?
Then I'll go with FIRE! Whenever we figured out that one wins :D
hmmm. I would say some of the earliest discoveries/inventions were the most important, like the discovery of how to make and use fire, or the advent of the wheel. Is that what you mean?
Also, agriculture, the aquaducts, plumbing and the baths...
medicine, contraception, tools, writing, mathematics.
a) Why 1750?
b) Do you mean "the dawn of time to 1750" or "0 AD - 1750 AD"?
I did mean the dawn of time....but that's not what i wrote.....
The official list from Civilization 4 (and in parens, some things the technologies lead to)
Pre-1750 (approx):
Fishing
Wheel (roads)
Agriculture
Hunting
Mysticism
Mining
Sailing
Pottery
Animal Husbandry
Archery
Meditation (Buddhism)
Polytheism (Hinduism)
Masonry
Horseback Riding
Priesthood (temples)
Monotheism (Judaism)
Bronze Working (slavery)
Writing (libraries)
Metal Casting
Iron Working
Alphabet
Mathematics
Monarchy
Compass
Literature
Calendar
Construction
Currency (markets, grocers)
Machinery
Drama
Engineering
Code of Laws (caste system, Confusianism)
Feudalism (serfdom)
Optics
Music
Philosophy (Taoism, Pacifism)
Theology (Christianity)
Guilds
Divine Right (Islam)
Paper
Banking
Nationalism (nationhood)
Printing Press
Education
Astronomy
Gunpowder
Post-1750 (approx);
Military Tradition
Constitution (representation)
Replaceable Parts
Liberalism (free speech, free religion)
Economics (free markets)
Democracy (universal sufferage, emancipation)
Rifling
Corporation
Chemistry
Steam Power
Scientific Method
Steel
Assembly Line (factory)
Communism
Physics
Biology
Railroad
Flight
Artillery
Fascism
Electricity
Medicine (environmentalism)
Combustion
Rocketry
Industrialism
Fission (nuclear power, The Bomb)
Refrigeration
Radio
Satellites
Plastics
Computers
Mass Media
Composites
Fiber Optics (Internet)
Ecology
Genetics
Robotics
What about all the things Ayla invented? That list alone would be longer than what UT just posted....
ummm, I hate to burst your bubble UT but astonomy has been around since WAY before the 1700s. The Egyptians and the Mayans had knowledge of astronomy, as did many other ancient peoples. Also, democracy, medicine, chemistry, physics and even certain kinds of artillery, like catapults and trebuchets. That game isn't very precise.
The game doesn't place them in time, I did. I think it refers to modern medicine and modern democracy and modern artillery.
i was thinking that the leaps we've made in manufacturing, genetics, medicine, transportation, and especially the dissemination of information have been more than exponentially. Whereas given the amount of progress made in the 30,000 years prior to 1750, it seems almost stagnant.
Wikipedia puts chemistry at 1773 due to the "
chemical revolution", a "reformulation of chemistry based on the Law of Conservation of Matter and the oxygen theory of combustion"
where in time do you place the fulcrum to balance the scale?
OK. But chemistry did exist before that. Ancient civilizations had some knowledge of chemistry, but Muslims made it into a science back around the 9th century.
i was thinking that the leaps we've made in manufacturing, genetics, medicine, transportation, and especially the dissemination of information have been more than exponentially. Whereas given the amount of progress made in the 30,000 years prior to 1750, it seems almost stagnant.
I think, Jim, we've gone through stages of growth, and stages of ignorance. It's true that we've progressed more exponentially since the 1700s, but I'm not exactly sure all that progress has been positive. maybe, in some cases, we've progressed too fast for our own good.
The discoveries of and in electricity, bacteria and subatomic physics pretty much blow everything before 1750 out of the water.
I need to think about this one, but I'm not ready to hand it to the post-1750 period.
i was thinking that the leaps we've made in manufacturing, genetics, medicine, transportation, and especially the dissemination of information have been more than exponentially. Whereas given the amount of progress made in the 30,000 years prior to 1750, it seems almost stagnant.
I don't know about that... it's clear that we here typing on this board identify most heavily with post-industrial revolution developments for obvious reasons. That makes it hard for us to judge the accomplishments of past civilizations, to say nothing of European civilization pre-1750.
The discoveries of and in electricity, bacteria and subatomic physics pretty much blow everything before 1750 out of the water.
I a certain sense that's true. Would any of those discoveries have been made without Euclidean geometry? Trigonometry? Calculus? Again, it's hard for people who can whip out pocket calculators (or better yet phones with pocket calculators) to judge the historical impact of, say, logarithms.
I mean, let's look at Johannes Kepler (1571-1630). The man developed the first accurate descriptions of planetary orbits and their mathematical basis. He was basically working with data that involved holding up a ruler and measuring distances in the sky. But he was starting from practically nothing by comparison to today. Given that we now know Kepler's laws, and all the other stuff that's been discovered since, what would a corresponding leap forward in scientific knowledge be now? How many of our professional astronomers would do as well without the knowledge from their astronomy books and their computer-controlled space telescopes?
If I wanted to be a smartass (perish the thought) I would point out that the "dawn of time" would include the evolution of
Homo sapiens . . . .
I a certain sense that's true. Would any of those discoveries have been made without Euclidean geometry? Trigonometry? Calculus? Again, it's hard for people who can whip out pocket calculators (or better yet phones with pocket calculators) to judge the historical impact of, say, logarithms.
What's more important, logarithms or what people have done with them?
The answer isn't self-evident to me. If you asked me what was more important to me, a case of nails or my house, it'd be my house.
But the house couldn't have been built without nails.
On the other hand, would it be possible to build houses if nails had never been invented? Sure.
On the other hand, the question is "societal advances." We've been talking science and technology. I wouldn't want to exclude other issues (like in UT's list). So, you want to argue the Magna Carta vs. the United States Constitution? Bleah. No matter what example you pick, we got here by a specific route, in a specific sequence of developments. The oldest child will always feel ignored in favor of the youngest, and vice versa.
Maybe we could sum the good uses of logarithms, and then the bad uses of logarithms, to see if they were an asset or curse. ;)
Post-1750
advances in medicine
I might have missed it on UT 's list.
Wikipedia's world population figures
It boggles the mind in many ways.
World population in 1750: 791,000,000
World population in 1900: 1,650,000,000
World population in 1950: 2,518,629,000
World population today: 6,706,993,000
The REAL smackdown:
During all that time most of the population has been in Asia. Long before 1750, all of Asia contained more people than the US does today. It took all of Europe until 1950 (apx.) to reach all of Asia's population in 1750.
But when you look at where the discoveries took place... the pre-1750 discoveries are mostly eastern, where the people were; but not a single one of the post-1750 discoveries are Asian. When it comes to discoveries per population, Britain in particular was overpulling its weight for a long time; so, too, the US as of recent.
What nature of the cultures drives this? And what if, through globalization, those natures are taught and shared just a little more?
electricity
wut abut rumors that ancient egyptions had camel dung batteries
.. or that Baghdad had organic batteries as well. If they did have these advances, what happened to them? Why were they "lost" for so long?
I agree with UT, it takes a certain personality type (on an individual level) and culture (on a larger level) to desire innovation and advancement. I don't know that these technologies were "lost" so much as they were willfully ignored. There is evidence that many Native American tribes understood the concept of the wheel, demonstrated mostly in children's toys. But there were (apparently) no attempts to develop this knowledge into something useful.
WOW. I am completely stunned that no one here realizes exactly how innovative and complex some ancient cultures were, even by our standards today. Jesus. Do you not understand how developed ancient Greece was? Or Rome? Egypt? Mesopotamia? Without those cultures, we would be nothing. They developed astonomy, mathematics, chemistry, indoor plumbing, irrigation, agriculture, writing, philosophy, logic, the arts, weapons, shit, the Chinese invented gun powder over a thousand years ago. The ancient Greeks practiced skilled medicine and surgery, and knew all about anatomy. If something drastic happened and we lost all our "advanced technology," we would be completely lost. I don't believe we could recreate ANY of the pyramids today to the mathematical and atronomical exactness that the ancients built them, if we had to do it without any of our advanced technology. We don't even know HOW they did it. So we have computers and cars and airplanes and Wall Street, big fucking deal.
*shakes head*
So we have computers
Now wait just a minute... I used to have to be annoyed by people locally, but now I can be annoyed by people hundreds of miles away. That's an advance right there, isn't it?
:D :p :p :p
and I'm not that far away... look out your window... wooooooo
Do you not understand how developed ancient Greece was? Or Rome? Egypt? Mesopotamia? Without those cultures, we would be nothing.
Bullshit, they were just the rudimentary beginnings of all those sciences, stuff we teach grade school kids. They were far from developing the sciences we have even though they named them. Their biggest shortcoming is they only shared their knowledge with a few of their fellow noble class students, that's why when the libraries were lost the knowledge was lost, except the stuff people were using.
If something drastic happened and we lost all our "advanced technology," we would be completely lost.
Today at least the basics are presented to any kid exposed to the school system, and much more for any kid that wants it. Do you think if something "drastic" happened you would forget your trade? Why would anyone else? Public education did more to advance this country than any particular science. Reading, writing, and arithmetic for everyone, made it possible for people to operate a business and to educate themselves in any field that interested them. You know, actually use those libraries.
Bullshit, they were just the rudimentary beginnings of all those sciences, stuff we teach grade school kids. They were far from developing the sciences we have even though they named them. Their biggest shortcoming is they only shared their knowledge with a few of their fellow noble class students, that's why when the libraries were lost the knowledge was lost, except the stuff people were using.
Oh I don't think so. Especially today. Even some high school graduates don't know what Vietnam was, much less would they be able to understand Plato, or the mathematics involved in the architecture of the pyramids, or the strategic art of war that was developed by Sun Tzu. They probably couldn't even find Greece on a map. Please. It's embarrassing.
Today at least the basics are presented to any kid exposed to the school system, and much more for any kid that wants it. Do you think if something "drastic" happened you would forget your trade? Why would anyone else? Public education did more to advance this country than any particular science. Reading, writing, and arithmetic for everyone, made it possible for people to operate a business and to educate themselves in any field that interested them. You know, actually use those libraries.
I'm not saying the developments we've made aren't important, or extreme, I'm saying, I don't think most of you are giving enough credit where credit is due. The ancient world allowed us to get where we are.
As far as the school system goes, I would have agreed with you a few years ago, but not anymore. We have one of the worst education systems in the free world, and even in the not-so-free world. I know someone who works in the school system here, and it's atrocious. We are like 35th and 29th in math and science
in the world. We are behind some developing nations. And english? Forget about it. Have you heard the way kids speak today? And many libraries have lost a lot of their funding. Personally, I think human beings are devolving. Not everyone, but it certainly seems to me that the average person is much denser today than they were 20 years ago. Seriously. They aren't even interested in learning anything important or expanding their knowledge or intelligence. Maybe I'm just jaded, or maybe it's where I live (people out west certainly didn't fit that description), but I'm not kidding.
Looking at a delightful confection, a light sponge cake with frosting and candles, ask yourself which was most important, the flour, the eggs or the sugar?
The invention of the zero along with the Arabic number system. FTW.
"I've invented the zero!"
"What?"
"Oh, nothing. Nothing."
-- from Why Man Creates
wut abut rumors that ancient egyptions had camel dung batteries
And what exactly did those batteries supply power to?
Unless the ancients understood electricity - a phenomenon that escaped every genuis during the Rennaissance, then its a safe bet that the relics errantly classified as batteries were not unlike the Peruvian "landing strips" for space ships capable of intergalactic travel but unable to master the nuances of verticle landing and takeoff.
This might be a good time to review
Jinx' sig line.
. .. the Peruvian "landing strips" for space ships capable of intergalactic travel but unable to master the nuances of verticle landing and takeoff.
Sigh. The botched landings resulted in the crop circles. Do we have to explain
everything?
And what exactly did those batteries supply power to?
Apparently there was no other way that we could figure out how they supplied light inside the pyramids. Although it has been also speculated that these batteries were used to electroplate silver or other jewelry.
Battery
Assumptive lightbulb
Reproduction of bulb
Oh I don't think so. Especially today. Even [COLOR="Red"]some [/COLOR]high school graduates don't know what Vietnam was, much less would they be able to understand Plato, or the mathematics involved in the architecture of the pyramids, or the strategic art of war that was developed by Sun Tzu. They probably couldn't even find Greece on a map. Please. It's embarrassing.
And [COLOR="red"]some[/COLOR] can't tie their shoes. So what? It's impossible to make every kid want to learn, you can only offer the oportunity... readin', 'ritin' & 'rithmatic... the important thing is to offer it to
everyone, not just the rich kid scholars like in early Greece.
I know. And I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm just trying to point out how advanced some of those earlier cultures were. You said they just had the rudimentary beginnings of all those sciences, stuff we teach grade school kids. I don't agree with you and gave some examples of why I don't agree with you. You also said, They were far from developing the sciences we have even though they named them. And while I agree with that to a certain degree, it probably isn't to the same degree that you believe it. For instance, I agree we have, over time, built upon the scientific principles they founded. I do not agree that the science and math they discovered was only rudimentary, and stuff we teach children. If that were true, they never would have been able to build pyramids and cathedrals and other things they accomplished in the ancient world. Some of the military strategy we used today is based on anceint principles. Our form of goverment is based at least in some part on that of ancient Rome and Greece.
STFU of course you're trying to be argumentative. You love it.
WOW. I am completely stunned that no one here realizes exactly how innovative and complex some ancient cultures were, even by our standards today. Jesus. Do you not understand how developed ancient Greece was? Or Rome? Egypt? Mesopotamia? Without those cultures, we would be nothing. They developed astonomy, mathematics, chemistry
You mentioned chemistry. Prior to the afore-mentioned 1773 chemical revolution, the science of chemistry was called
alchemy. The goal of the activity was to find direct routes to creating gold, silver and other such useful things.
Under that science, it was theorized that all things could be broken down into component elements. Those elements were determined to be Earth, Water, Air, Fire, and Aether.
These are your "chemists" and that is pretty much the sum of their work from the beginning of civilization through 1773.
Good enough for sugarpop. It goes on the list and anybody who doesn't think that's
chemistry has an ignorance to be stunned by.
STFU of course you're trying to be argumentative. You love it.
:D I do admit, I love a good, respectful argument. I should be in politics. :D
You mentioned chemistry. Prior to the afore-mentioned 1773 chemical revolution, the science of chemistry was called alchemy. The goal of the activity was to find direct routes to creating gold, silver and other such useful things.
Under that science, it was theorized that all things could be broken down into component elements. Those elements were determined to be Earth, Water, Air, Fire, and Aether.
These are your "chemists" and that is pretty much the sum of their work from the beginning of civilization through 1773.
Good enough for sugarpop. It goes on the list and anybody who doesn't think that's chemistry has an ignorance to be stunned by.
Yes, it did start out that way, but Muslims made it into a real science.
...The study of alchemy and chemistry often overlapped in the early Islamic world, but later there were disputes between the traditional alchemists and the practical chemists who discredited alchemy. Muslim chemists and alchemists were the first to employ the experimental scientific method (as practised in modern chemistry), while Muslim alchemists also developed theories on the transmutation of metals, the philosopher's stone and the Takwin (artificial creation of life in the laboratory), like in later medieval European alchemy, though these alchemical theories were rejected by practical Muslim chemists from the 9th century onwards...
...An early experimental scientific method for chemistry began emerging among early Muslim chemists. The first and most influential was the 9th century chemist, Geber (Jabir ibn Hayyan), who is "considered by many to be the father of chemistry", for introducing:
* The experimental method; apparatus such as the alembic, still, and retort; and chemical processes such as liquefaction, purification, oxidisation and evaporation.
* Crystallisation.
* The chemical process of filtration.
* Pure distillation (impure distillation methods were known to the Babylonians, Greeks and Egyptians since ancient times, but Geber was the first to introduce distillation apparatus and techniques which were able to fully purify chemical substances).
* The distillation and production of numerous chemical substances.
Jabir clearly recognized and proclaimed the importance of experimentation:
"The first essential in chemistry is that you should perform practical work and conduct experiments, for he who performs not practical work nor makes experiments will never attain the least degree of mastery."
The historian of chemistry Erick John Holmyard gives credit to Jabir for developing alchemy into an experimental science and he writes that Jabir's importance to the history of chemistry is equal to that of Robert Boyle and Antoine Lavoisier....
...Al-Sadiq also developed a particle theory, which he described as follows:
"The universe was born out of a tiny particle, which had two opposite poles. That particle produced an atom. In this way matter came into being. Then the matter diversified. This diversification was caused by the density or rarity of the atoms."...
...Alexander von Humboldt regarded the Muslim chemists as the founders of chemistry. Will Durant wrote in The Story of Civilization IV: The Age of Faith:
"Chemistry as a science was almost created by the Moslems; for in this field, where the Greeks (so far as we know) were confined to industrial experience and vague hypothesis, the Saracens introduced precise observation, controlled experiment, and careful records. They invented and named the alembic (al-anbiq), chemically analyzed innumerable substances, composed lapidaries, distinguished alkalis and acids, investigated their affinities, studied and manufactured hundreds of drugs. Alchemy, which the Moslems inherited from Egypt, contributed to chemistry by a thousand incidental discoveries, and by its method, which was the most scientific of all medieval operations."
Fielding H. Garrison wrote in the History of Medicine:
"The Saracens themselves were the originators not only of algebra, chemistry, and geology, but of many of the so-called improvements or refinements of civilization, such as street lamps, window-panes, firework, stringed instruments, cultivated fruits, perfumes, spices, etc..."
Robert Briffault wrote in The Making of Humanity:
"Chemistry, the rudiments of which arose in the processes employed by Egyptian metallurgists and jewellers combining metals into various alloys and 'tinting' them to resemble gold processes long preserved as a secret monopoly of the priestly colleges, and clad in the usual mystic formulas, developed in the hands of the Arabs into a widespread, organized passion for research which led them to the invention of pure distillation, sublimation, filtration, to the discovery of alcohol, of nitric and sulfuric acids (the only acid known to the ancients was vinegar), of the alkalis, of the salts of mercury, of antimony and bismuth, and laid the basis of all subsequent chemistry and physical research."
George Sarton, the father of the history of science, wrote in the Introduction to the History of Science:
"We find in his (Jabir, Geber) writings remarkably sound views on methods of chemical research, a theory on the geologic formation of metals (the six metals differ essentially because of different proportions of sulfur and mercury in them); preparation of various substances (e.g., basic lead carbonatic, arsenic and antimony from their sulfides).."..
Geber invented the following chemical processes in the 8th century:
* Pure distillation (al-taqtir) which could fully purify chemical substances with the alembic.
* Filtration (al-tarshih).
* Crystallization (al-tabalwur), liquefaction, purification, oxidisation, and evaporation (tabkhir).
Al-Razi invented the following chemical processes in the 9th century:
* Dry distillation
* Calcination (al-tashwiya).
* Solution (al-tahlil), sublimation (al-tas'id), amalgamation (al-talghim), ceration (al-tashmi), and a method of converting a substance into a thick paste or fusible solid.
Other chemical processes introduced by Muslim chemists include:
* Assation (or roasting), cocotion (or digestion), ceration, lavage, solution, mixture, and fixation.
* Destructive distillation was invented by Muslim chemists in the 8th century to produce tar from petroleum.
* Steam distillation was invented by Avicenna in the early 11th century for the purpose of producing essential oils.
* Water purification...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemy_(Islam)
I don't know, those things sound an awful lot like chemistry to me.
If that were true, they never would have been able to build pyramids and cathedrals and other things they accomplished in the ancient world.
I thought they had help from the aliens, to which you already agreed. Now which is it?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemy_(Islam)
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I thought they had help from the aliens, to which you already agreed. Now which is it?
Huh? I never said anything about aliens, did I? I may have said I thought it was pretty arrogant to think that, in the vastness of time and space, we are the only intelligent life. But I don't belive I said anything about aliens building pyramids or anything.
No. No, I distinctly remember you saying there were aliens and they were already amongst us. yep that was definately it. You can't change it now,. That's that.
This all could have been solved already had anyone bothered to discuss
Ancient Aliens. :rolleyes:
Whats an Ancient Alien? :rolleyes:
I can't believe someone posted a list from civilization 4.
They've refined their tech tree considerably. Don't know of a better starting list.
Game designers spend for-fucking-ever getting that sort of thing just right. It's their full-time job. You can bet that by the 4th sequel the list is pretty damn tight.
The tech tree was always my favourite bit of Civ. I used to love that.
Even though it involved lots of disk swapping on the Amiga...
My ex was very impressed with Civ 4. Hey UT, did you ever try that add on for civ 4?
One of them: I play a lot of Civ 4:Colonization now (it's just natural for us merkins). I have yet to beat the King's armies but it's fun anyway.
Bullshit, they were just the rudimentary beginnings of all those sciences, stuff we teach grade school kids. They were far from developing the sciences we have even though they named them. Their biggest shortcoming is they only shared their knowledge with a few of their fellow noble class students, that's why when the libraries were lost the knowledge was lost, except the stuff people were using.
The base of the knowledge might have been rudimentary but some of the applications were extremely complex. Most graders can understand the basic concept of Force = Mass * Acceleration but no third grader can understand some of the very complex applications of it.
The ones who have been paddled can understand it.
I don't know, those things sound an awful lot like chemistry to me.
I believe you, but they sound like the rudimentary foundations of chemistry as a science, which was much later to become a useful tool of mankind, to me.
The base of the knowledge might have been rudimentary but some of the applications were extremely complex. Most graders can understand the basic concept of Force = Mass * Acceleration but no third grader can understand some of the very complex applications of it.
Third grader? Where did you come up with third grader? I spit on your third grader's soul. :p
I believe you, but they sound like the rudimentary foundations of chemistry as a science, which was much later to become a useful tool of mankind, to me.
OK, I'll give you the chemistry, but not the other things I mentioned. there. You won. :p
Chemistry (and all the other sciences for that matter) could never have been developed without the Arabic number system. Can you imagine doing logarithms in Roman numerals?
Other developments may be more spectacular, but the Arabic system and the invention of the zero are the most fundamental.
Without agriculture, none of it could have been done, because all those mathematicians and scientists would be spending all day rolling logs over looking for grubs to eat.
I think it is safe to assume that the advances made lately would not have occurred had we not mastered the underlying skill or science.
If you look at it like.....the changes or improvements that have impacted our daily lives, quality of life, or lifespans.....I think I'm putting my chips on the post 1750 side of the table.
the biggest one thing I think might be in the communications area. I think bruce referred to the loss of skills or science due to non dissemination of the information.
Third grader? Where did you come up with third grader? I spit on your third grader's soul. :p
Haven't we all...
OK, I'll give you the chemistry, but not the other things I mentioned. there. You won. :p
Yeah, I know your pissed we have kids graduating from High School not knowing the strategic art of war that was developed by Sun Tzu. Maybe we could make them go to summer school at West Point, between their junior and senior year, for that. :haha:
... If you look at it like.....the changes or improvements that have impacted our daily lives, quality of life, or lifespans.....I think I'm putting my chips on the post 1750 side of the table.
the biggest one thing I think might be in the communications area. I think bruce referred to the loss of skills or science due to non dissemination of the information.
Exactly, people have even been known to sing about the concept:
[Superstar]
(Voice of Judas)
Every time I look at you I don't understand
Why you let the things you did get so out of your hand
You'd have managed better if you'd had it planned
Why'd you choose such a backward time and such a strange land?
If you'd come today you would have reached a whole nation
Israel in 4 BC had no mass communication
Don't you get me wrong - I only wanna know
Whats an Ancient Alien? :rolleyes:
this is the
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_astronauts theory
Ahhhh, NB - Dads used to play that every Easter. Murray Head has the voice of a tripped out angel in a dream. Thanks for the reminder.
this is the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_astronauts theory
lol - yeh I created the thread on them. The show was just on the History channel. I was yokin'
so the question is, how can the future be so great if they keep going back in time to the past?
Yeah, I know your pissed we have kids graduating from High School not knowing the strategic art of war that was developed by Sun Tzu. Maybe we could make them go to summer school at West Point, between their junior and senior year, for that. :haha:
:D You're the one who said all the ancient knowledge was rudimentary and stuff we teach kids in grade school. (They teach Sun Tzu at West Point?)
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