GM

sugarpop • Mar 5, 2009 4:29 pm
More bad news...

General Motors Corp on Thursday said its auditors had raised "substantial doubt" about its ability to survive outside bankruptcy if it fails to stem its losses and stop burning cash...
http://www.comcast.net/articles/finance/20081010/BUSINESS-US-GM/
Bullitt • Mar 5, 2009 4:49 pm
Survival of the fittest. To survive is to endure and prosper, if you can't tough luck you screwed up somewhere.
lookout123 • Mar 5, 2009 6:01 pm
They should have gone into bankruptcy a long time ago. There is no news here.
HungLikeJesus • Mar 5, 2009 7:16 pm
That reminds me, I haven't seen tw posting in a long time. I hope he's ok.
DanaC • Mar 5, 2009 7:20 pm
he posted recently didn't he?
Perry Winkle • Mar 5, 2009 7:26 pm
Hopefully Amtrak will be next. Competition in rail travel in the US would be nice.
sugarpop • Mar 5, 2009 7:42 pm
Perry Winkle;541915 wrote:
Hopefully Amtrak will be next. Competition in rail travel in the US would be nice.


There is supposedly some high speed rail tracks in the new stimulus or budget or something.
classicman • Mar 5, 2009 7:50 pm
Sell off the pieces that are profitable and let the rest go.
Look what we've done to Ford. A company that probably could have taken the bailout money, and didn't. We kept a competitor (or 2) in the market that shouldn't have been there. Seems rather unfair to me.
classicman • Mar 5, 2009 7:52 pm
HungLikeJesus;541913 wrote:
That reminds me, I haven't seen tw posting in a long time. I hope he's ok.


Last Activity: 03-03-2009
TGRR • Mar 5, 2009 9:15 pm
Dear GM:

Build cars that people want to buy. Get new engineers. Get the UAW under control. Don't show up for a bailout in a private jet.

Yours truly,
TGRRnotbuyingyourshittycars.
classicman • Mar 5, 2009 9:48 pm
Amen - oops too late.
elSicomoro • Mar 5, 2009 11:10 pm
If I'm GM, I kill everything off but Chevy and Cadillac, because those are the two brands that will almost always make money for GM. The job losses will be awful, but at this point, no one wants to buy cars. I don't see how GM can survive in its current state if people simply won't buy cars...nor should it survive in that state.

10 months in...still loving my Cobalt...still not having issues with it...and still getting 40mpg on the highway, tw. ;)
TGRR • Mar 5, 2009 11:31 pm
sycamore;541990 wrote:
If I'm GM, I kill everything off but Chevy and Cadillac, because those are the two brands that will almost always make money for GM. The job losses will be awful, but at this point, no one wants to buy cars. I don't see how GM can survive in its current state if people simply won't buy cars...nor should it survive in that state.

10 months in...still loving my Cobalt...still not having issues with it...and still getting 40mpg on the highway, tw. ;)


Saturn's doing well (well, last time I checked, anyway). Isn't that a GM company?
elSicomoro • Mar 5, 2009 11:42 pm
Their cars are well-liked, but I don't think they're selling worth a shit. The rumor is that they are now dead.
TGRR • Mar 5, 2009 11:50 pm
sycamore;542010 wrote:
Their cars are well-liked, but I don't think they're selling worth a shit. The rumor is that they are now dead.


um...

Chevrolet, Cadillac, GMC and Buick are going to be their “core brands” that get most of the attention.


Are these guys all fucked up on drugs? Cadillac I can see. Chevy MAYBE. Buick is a DOG, and you can't GIVE a GMC away.
elSicomoro • Mar 5, 2009 11:55 pm
I don't know why they want to keep Buick and GMC. GMCs to me are just slightly upscale Chevy products. Buick has actually improved in recent years, but Cadillac pretty much covers the luxury and near-luxury segment now, thanks to the CTS. I suspect Buick's a keeper in part because of its huge popularity in China.
elSicomoro • Mar 6, 2009 12:03 am
IMO, a perfect example of GM stupidity: The upcoming Pontiac G3, already sold for the past 2 years in Canada as the Wave.

Seriously...do we need a sporty version of the Aveo? Really? Shit, the Cobalt gets better gas mileage than the Aveo...and it's bigger...and has more HP. WTF?!
xoxoxoBruce • Mar 6, 2009 12:37 am
TGRR;542020 wrote:
um...



Are these guys all fucked up on drugs? Cadillac I can see. Chevy MAYBE. Buick is a DOG, and you can't GIVE a GMC away.


Buick is #1 in China.
Even if the go the bankruptcy and restructure route, they won't last long if they don't dump the assholes running the show. :(
elSicomoro • Mar 6, 2009 12:48 am
There are so many arguments out there as to why GM is going to hell...unions, government regulation, asinine management, SUVs, etc. It seems to me that it was a perfect storm: a gas crisis, too many brands, poor leadership and a crappy economy. I certainly don't want to see any of the Big 3 fail...but I just don't know if Chrysler or GM can really survive this.

You think we (the government, or at least Cerberus) could go after Daimler for fucking Chrysler up so bad?
sugarpop • Mar 7, 2009 1:25 am
TGRR;541948 wrote:
Dear GM:

Build cars that people want to buy. Get new engineers. Get the UAW under control. Don't show up for a bailout in a private jet.

Yours truly,
TGRRnotbuyingyourshittycars.


OK, I have a real problem with people who want to beat up on the unions. If everyone's pay had kept pace with inflation over the years, then everyone would have really well-paying jobs like union jobs. The people at the top might not earn as much, but they earn too much anyway, so I wouldn't cry for them.

And, if the genuises at GM hadn't killed the electric car they built during the 90s and the early 2000s, they would be ahead of the game right now. WAY ahead. Corporations should do what Steve Jobs does, focus on a few things and do them very well, instead of spreading themselves thin and being mediocre.
sugarpop • Mar 7, 2009 1:33 am
sycamore;542054 wrote:
There are so many arguments out there as to why GM is going to hell...unions, government regulation, asinine management, SUVs, etc. It seems to me that it was a perfect storm: a gas crisis, too many brands, poor leadership and a crappy economy. I certainly don't want to see any of the Big 3 fail...but I just don't know if Chrysler or GM can really survive this.

You think we (the government, or at least Cerberus) could go after Daimler for fucking Chrysler up so bad?


Chrysler is privately by hedgefunds or something. Maybe they should pump their own money into it and save it. Or sell it. Whatever.

At the end of last year I heard an interview on NPR with the guy who runs Tesla Motors (they make electric cars) and he said a billion dollars is a LOT of money, and the government should invest in more innovative, smaller companies like his and others who are producing the cars of the future. It would be a hell of a lot cheaper, a fraction of what they're giving GM and Chrysler, and we would be getting truly innovative cars for the future.
TGRR • Mar 7, 2009 1:40 am
sugarpop;542379 wrote:
OK, I have a real problem with people who want to beat up on the unions. If everyone's pay had kept pace with inflation over the years, then everyone would have really well-paying jobs like union jobs. The people at the top might not earn as much, but they earn too much anyway, so I wouldn't cry for them.

And, if the genuises at GM hadn't killed the electric car they built during the 90s and the early 2000s, they would be ahead of the game right now. WAY ahead. Corporations should do what Steve Jobs does, focus on a few things and do them very well, instead of spreading themselves thin and being mediocre.


I am not beating up on Unions. I am beating up on ONE union, and it's one that richly deserves it.
xoxoxoBruce • Mar 7, 2009 4:14 am
Oh, why does this one union deserve it?
Because they amount to 10% of the cost of the car?
elSicomoro • Mar 7, 2009 10:27 am
I'm not the biggest union fan, but based on what I've read and seen, the UAW is not really much of a problem in this situation. The job bank thing...yeah, that seems ridiculous, but that's gone now, if I'm not mistaken. GM was more than willing to pay what the UAW wanted and could afford it at the time. The members work hard; they deserve to make good money...it's not like they're making bazillions.

And it's easy to pick on the costs that the unions bring when those similar costs are covered by the government in Japan, Germany, etc.
TGRR • Mar 7, 2009 11:57 am
xoxoxoBruce;542421 wrote:
Oh, why does this one union deserve it?
Because they amount to 10% of the cost of the car?


Does that include the actual wages of the hourly workers who build the car?
TGRR • Mar 7, 2009 11:58 am
sycamore;542449 wrote:
I'm not the biggest union fan, but based on what I've read and seen, the UAW is not really much of a problem in this situation. The job bank thing...yeah, that seems ridiculous, but that's gone now, if I'm not mistaken. GM was more than willing to pay what the UAW wanted and could afford it at the time. The members work hard; they deserve to make good money...it's not like they're making bazillions.

And it's easy to pick on the costs that the unions bring when those similar costs are covered by the government in Japan, Germany, etc.


Problem is, the union was too stiff-necked to bend the necessary amount when things got tough.

In the end, they - collectively - were dumb, and Adam Smith's "invisible hand" has come along to punish them for their stupidity.
sugarpop • Mar 7, 2009 11:07 pm
TGRR;542497 wrote:
Problem is, the union was too stiff-necked to bend the necessary amount when things got tough.

In the end, they - collectively - were dumb, and Adam Smith's "invisible hand" has come along to punish them for their stupidity.


Here's the thing about unions "bending" though, why don't the friggin' people at the TOP give up something? Because they never do. It's always the workers who have to pay. Unions look out, as much as they can, for their workers. Yes, there was a problem with corruptness in unions some years ago, it probably still exists on some level, and that should be dealt with. But picking on workers who earn a fraction of what the executives at the top make is silly. A few executives earn more than many, many workers. If we really forced corporate America to be more equitable with the profits, the country would be much stronger. When unions "bend" and make concessions that cost their members, when those in power give up nothing, it makes the industry as a whole weaker. When times are hard, EVERYONE should have to give up something, NOT just the unions and the workers.

America was strongest when we had a strong middle class, because the middle class drives the economy. Without a strong middle class, we become much weaker as a country. We screwed ourselves when we allowed corporate America to ship all our manufacturing jobs overseas. A country that makes nothing is not a strong country. A country that has a majority of the people working for very little while a very few at the top own most of the wealth is not a strong country. That description usually refers to third world dictatorships. We are only now seeing the consequences of what has been coming for years, as a result of the actions of those in power. Until we make some serious changes, it will never get better.

But look at China and India. Now that they have our manufacturing base, they are developing a middle and upper middle class economy, and they have grown very strong. (China has even been sending their upper middle class people over here to buy houses.) I have been ranting about this for years, but no one wanted to listen to me, because you know, I'm just a "whacko communist leftie" so of course I must be stupid. But it has been my experience that those on the left tend to look more at long term consequences than those on the right. No offense meant to those on the right, (and of course it doesn't apply to everyone on the right, nor to everyone on the left, maybe it's just people in south Georgia ). And we need to look long term and not be so shortsighted.

GM was certainly shortsighted when they confiscated all those electric cars they built, and then demolished them. WTF? I mean really, couldn't they have just sold them to the people who had been leasing them and wanted to buy them? Why couldn't they have kept that ONE LINE of green cars? Imagine where they would be now. Probably not going completely bankrupt. It certainly wasn't the unions, or the workers, who made THAT genius decision. It was the executives.
tw • Mar 8, 2009 3:30 am
lookout123;541884 wrote:
They should have gone into bankruptcy a long time ago. There is no news here.
sycamore;542054 wrote:
I certainly don't want to see any of the Big 3 fail...but I just don't know if Chrysler or GM can really survive this.
Failing or the threat thereof means most employees don't lose their job AND screwed up top management gets dumped. Attack the reason for failure. It has not changed. 85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management. If that problem is not solved, then even employees and stockholders lose everything.

But again, need I post lessons from history including 1979 Chrysler and 1981 Ford. Or John Aker’s 1990s IBM? Or 1981 Xerox? Or Spindler's Apple Computer? Armstrong's AT&T? In every case, the threat of bankruptcy forced the only problem to finally be removed. In Apple's case, I am told it was four letter words cast upon the Board of Directors in a stockholder's meeting after Spindler was not removed. The same solution applies to GM and Chrysler's only problem.

How much damage has been done to GM because money games averted a 1991 bankruptcy? Or how many did not know that GM was only 4 hours away from bankruptcy in 1991? Those unsolved problems continued to fester today.
TGRR;541948 wrote:
Dear GM:
Build cars that people want to buy. Get new engineers.
TGRR;542494 wrote:
Does that include the actual wages of the hourly workers who build the car?
Again, need we list facts that were ignored in those posts? GM does not need new engineers. Just like during the Challenger (every engineer said, "Don't launch."), GM also does not have patriots in top management. GM engineers do not design GM cars. Innovations from GM engineers often appear in foreign products 10 and 20 years later. Even McPherson was a GM engineer. Of course, you know that McPherson struts appeared on superior imports 20 years later ... and GM still would not use it.

Benchmark for stifled innovation is the 70 Horsepower per liter engine which was developed in GM in 1975 and is still not in all GM cars today. Just another innovation that has been standard in patriotic (foreign) cars since 1992. But again, more GM engineer innovations stifled by MBAs - business school graduates who are taught and practice communism.

Let's see. Bill Clinton gave them $100 million in the early 1990s to build a hybrid. Since you are an informed American, then you also knew Ford, GM, and Chrysler had working hybrids ready to take to production before 2000 - the Prodigy, Precept, and ESX3. Where are these domestic hybrids? Stifle the engineers in the name of cost controls. Then get the ignorant to believe engineers designed that crap. Stifle innovation - an MBA solution made even easier when government no longer requires innovation. Wacko extremists even encouraged them to stifle innovations in fuel economy. And then blame the engineers? Are you that uninformed?

We all know George Jr hated innovation. After all, he was trained as an MBA. Therefore no more government pressure to liberate engineers – to permit innovation. MBAs also trashed their hybrids as any good MBA would do. Then blame the higher costs on unions - because so many Americans would believe that myth rather than first learn the facts and numbers.

Labor costs too high? Trivial labor costs per car were defined previously with numbers. I need not repeat what everyone should have known before having an opinion. But just like Saddam's WMDs, so many knew by ignoring numbers. Labor costs are trivial and do not explain the much higher costs of a GM product. Little hint on why you know labor costs are small. How many man-hours to assemble a car from scratch. You knew those man-hours times $50 per hour is how much?

If you do not know those numbers, then propagandist love you - because you can have an opinion and don't bother to first demand numbers.

The sooner GM and Chrysler admit bankruptcy will be the minute that both remove their #1 problem - Wagoner and Nardelli.

Meanwhile Ford has been far more American patriotic. Rumored fist fights between Nasser and William Clay until Nasser was removed. Only then could Ford engineers finally design a 70 horsepower per liter engine. As a result, Ford does not need government money just like two other patriotic companies do not - Honda and Toyota. Yes, all are losing money. But patriots are only leaking money. GM is the busted dam with some of the world's worst products and virtually nothing innovative in the pipeline. Just another paragraph chock full of facts that should have been known before having opinions.

Yes, Ford still has much work to become profitable. They have only been at it for most of the last 10 years. Undoing only four years of MBA management typically takes something closer to a decade. But then anyone with basic economic knowledge or who learned from history also knew that.

Jobs bank - the employee takes training, helps refine better manufacturing techniques, etc. Employees can be offered a transfer to another plant and fired if they do not take the transfer. Instead, GM would have everyone sit on their ass doing nothing. After all, when the boss is an MBA, then more training or fixing (optimizing) a temporarily halted assembly line only means more costs. Innovation, according to spread sheets, makes no profits. Jobs bank problem is only how management (people who despise innovation) makes it most destructive.

BTW, Saturn never made a profit. Now compare the myths to reality. Saturn was saddled with debt that increases the price of every car by $2000. To pay back that debt, Saturn needed a second assembly line. But GM MBAs said Saturn had to first make a profit. Classic Catch 22. Eventually, independent Saturn had to sell itself to the devil which forced Saturn to now sell renamed Chevy, Pontiac etc. Independent Saturn who could sell every car made but could never make a profit - due to GM's top management.
xoxoxoBruce • Mar 8, 2009 4:49 am
TGRR;542494 wrote:
Does that include the actual wages of the hourly workers who build the car?

Yes, and their benefits.
TGRR;542497 wrote:
Problem is, the union was too stiff-necked to bend the necessary amount when things got tough.

In the end, they - collectively - were dumb, and Adam Smith's "invisible hand" has come along to punish them for their stupidity.

Not true, the auto industry has always been cyclic with the economy and have had a number of lean times. Every time that happens the automakers pressure the unions to bend (givebacks), but then when business picks up the automakers don't resume the things they took back. That's why the unions are reluctant to give too much, it will be gone for good... while the management pocket millions.

By the way, much of what they are juggled on the spread sheets so they could pocket those millions should be going into the pension funds to cover their past agreements. Those agreements were made when the company was making billions and the deal was the people that made those billions happen were supposed to get a pension funded by part of the profits, not future profits, the profits they produced.
DanaC • Mar 8, 2009 6:50 am
The unions are an easy target. They're amongst the first to get hit by totalitarian states. There's a reason for that. Look at the countries that disallow unions. Active employment unions are as important as democratic oversight in a civilised capitalist society.
TGRR • Mar 8, 2009 11:51 am
sugarpop;542646 wrote:
Here's the thing about unions "bending" though, why don't the friggin' people at the TOP give up something? Because they never do.


That's a very good point. However, in the case of the sought-after bailout, I believe mgmt DID give up something.

Am I remembering this correctly?
TGRR • Mar 8, 2009 11:54 am
xoxoxoBruce;542702 wrote:
Yes, and their benefits.


Well, then, that's not actually outrageous, if you think about it.

xoxoxoBruce;542702 wrote:

Not true, the auto industry has always been cyclic with the economy and have had a number of lean times. Every time that happens the automakers pressure the unions to bend (givebacks), but then when business picks up the automakers don't resume the things they took back.


1. This isn't a "lean time", it's a disaster.

2. During the bailout negotiations, the execs had agreed to taking a hit, IIRC. The UAW didn't. I am unsure why, or of the details.
xoxoxoBruce • Mar 8, 2009 5:53 pm
Maybe because the UAW workers and the Toyota workers are only a buck or two apart.
The work rules that the Uaw negotiated generally fall into two categories.
One is safety related, trying to cut down on death and injury. Even when OSHA came about the union were their defacto in house agents because while OSHA had the clout, they didn't have the manpower.
The other category is trying to get more people employed by making overtime costly. A noble ambition stemming from the sweat shops they were formed to combat, but it probably has something to do with more people working means more dues collected and more power/prestige for the union.:haha:

Make no mistake the union's goals are honorable, but all union leadership is elected. They are in the end, politicians. Blaming the membership for the bad apples is like blaming everyone in Illinois for Blagojevich.
TGRR • Mar 8, 2009 8:40 pm
xoxoxoBruce;542873 wrote:
Maybe because the UAW workers and the Toyota workers are only a buck or two apart.
The work rules that the Uaw negotiated generally fall into two categories.
One is safety related, trying to cut down on death and injury. Even when OSHA came about the union were their defacto in house agents because while OSHA had the clout, they didn't have the manpower.
The other category is trying to get more people employed by making overtime costly. A noble ambition stemming from the sweat shops they were formed to combat, but it probably has something to do with more people working means more dues collected and more power/prestige for the union.:haha:

Make no mistake the union's goals are honorable, but all union leadership is elected. They are in the end, politicians. Blaming the membership for the bad apples is like blaming everyone in Illinois for Blagojevich.


I do blame Illinois for Blagojevich.
xoxoxoBruce • Mar 9, 2009 1:23 am
Even the people that didn't vote for him?
tw • Mar 9, 2009 4:46 am
TGRR;542781 wrote:
That's a very good point. However, in the case of the sought-after bailout, I believe mgmt DID give up something.
Am I remembering this correctly?
Well yes. They gave up 30% and 50% per year salary increases. Salary increases that occurred even as GM was losing money and shorting the pension funds. Increases that occurred when GM then complained about legacy costs - because those same executives had shorted the pension fund to claim quarterly profits - and justify more executive bonuses.

Did they give up the private airplanes? No. Only a few. Why does GM need private airplanes? Because GM corporate executives are not permitted to fly on commercial airliners - that are too dangerous.

So rent a private jet when one is needed? That too would mean aanother perk denied elite executives.

So they gave up what? Did they take bonuses when the UAW gave up previous concessions? Of course. Did they surrender their hundred of $million golden parachutes? Of course not. They give up something when they surrender bonuses from past years that were never earned. UAW gave up concessions in years previous and GM executives took more bonuses.

There is only one reason why GM products are some of the worst in the world. There is good reason why the only part of GM that is productive was the part run by Louis Hughes. Hughes was then driven from GM because he was a car guy; not a bean counter. Rick Wagoner - whose history was to run only unprofitable operations - got promoted instead of Louis Hughes. What did he give up? They rewarded Wagoner for created quarterly losses.

Where are these concessions? He could not even tell Congress how much money GM would need from the government. What kind of leader is that? Typical of someone who also says GM has no internal problems; that GM's only problem is the economy. Any concession is for show. He sold off two(?) of six(?) private jets.
TGRR • Mar 9, 2009 11:44 pm
xoxoxoBruce;542969 wrote:
Even the people that didn't vote for him?


That's the beauty of a republic. :)
TGRR • Mar 9, 2009 11:45 pm
tw;542991 wrote:
Well yes. They gave up 30% and 50% per year salary increases. Salary increases that occurred even as GM was losing money and shorting the pension funds. Increases that occurred when GM then complained about legacy costs - because those same executives had shorted the pension fund to claim quarterly profits - and justify more executive bonuses.

Did they give up the private airplanes? No. Only a few. Why does GM need private airplanes? Because GM corporate executives are not permitted to fly on commercial airliners - that are too dangerous.

So rent a private jet when one is needed? That too would mean aanother perk denied elite executives.

So they gave up what? Did they take bonuses when the UAW gave up previous concessions? Of course. Did they surrender their hundred of $million golden parachutes? Of course not. They give up something when they surrender bonuses from past years that were never earned. UAW gave up concessions in years previous and GM executives took more bonuses.

There is only one reason why GM products are some of the worst in the world. There is good reason why the only part of GM that is productive was the part run by Louis Hughes. Hughes was then driven from GM because he was a car guy; not a bean counter. Rick Wagoner - whose history was to run only unprofitable operations - got promoted instead of Louis Hughes. What did he give up? They rewarded Wagoner for created quarterly losses.

Where are these concessions? He could not even tell Congress how much money GM would need from the government. What kind of leader is that? Typical of someone who also says GM has no internal problems; that GM's only problem is the economy. Any concession is for show. He sold off two(?) of six(?) private jets.


Dang. I just got spanked by TW. :3eye:
tw • Mar 10, 2009 6:24 am
TGRR;543469 wrote:
Dang. I just got spanked by TW.
No spanking. Between us, demonstrated is what GM is excellent at doing. They actually have some people believing their latest myths. Because Rick Wagoner stopped taking a salary, then he made concessions?

You have posted what is probably popular beliefs. GM would do this propaganda every five some years. They would say, "We were making bad cars but we have now got our act together." As if an act of contrition suddenly made a saint. But people would believe that myth. GM promoted that myth again only two years ago. Now is using that propaganda machine to promote a myth of stability.

Reality - GM is either as bad as I have stated - or worse. Popular press is now suggesting 'medicine' even worse than I thought necessary only six months ago. GM is falling like a rock faster than anyone here had predicted. Nothing short of wholesale management removal can even start a recovery.

So they surrendered a few private jets. Chrysler's Nardelli did not even take a salary cut. The arrogance and denial remains. And still some people praise their GM products. And still some always believe that myth of "but we are better now". Well, Chrysler would be doing the same thing if they had an equally effective propaganda machine. You have simply demonstrated how effective their propaganda machine really is.
classicman • Mar 10, 2009 3:08 pm
Feel bad for Ford yet? They didn't take the money.
TGRR • Mar 10, 2009 8:48 pm
tw;543585 wrote:
No spanking. Between us, demonstrated is what GM is excellent at doing. They actually have some people believing their latest myths. Because Rick Wagoner stopped taking a salary, then he made concessions?

You have posted what is probably popular beliefs. GM would do this propaganda every five some years. They would say, "We were making bad cars but we have now got our act together." As if an act of contrition suddenly made a saint. But people would believe that myth. GM promoted that myth again only two years ago. Now is using that propaganda machine to promote a myth of stability.

Reality - GM is either as bad as I have stated - or worse. Popular press is now suggesting 'medicine' even worse than I thought necessary only six months ago. GM is falling like a rock faster than anyone here had predicted. Nothing short of wholesale management removal can even start a recovery.

So they surrendered a few private jets. Chrysler's Nardelli did not even take a salary cut. The arrogance and denial remains. And still some people praise their GM products. And still some always believe that myth of "but we are better now". Well, Chrysler would be doing the same thing if they had an equally effective propaganda machine. You have simply demonstrated how effective their propaganda machine really is.


I checked. When you're right, you're right.
tw • Mar 12, 2009 12:41 pm
classicman;543773 wrote:
Feel bad for Ford yet? They didn't take the money.
Ford got rid of the MBA Jacque Nasser maybe seven years ago. Ford then started innovating again. For example, seven years after William Clay Ford finally started it, the 70 horsepower per liter engine finally arrived in Ford last year.

Yes, Ford is losing money. But not like GM because Ford let engineers again were permitted to make decisions - not MBAs.
classicman • Mar 12, 2009 1:39 pm
I know - I was referring to the fact that even though Ford didn't take the money, but is seemingly still being painted with the same brush as those that did.
classicman • May 24, 2010 11:35 am
GM names former sales boss to international post
DETROIT (AP) - General Motors Co. says it has reassigned its former U.S. sales chief to a similar post in its international operations.
The automaker says Susan Docherty will be vice president of international sales and marketing effective June 1.
Docherty will coordinate sales efforts in GM's Asia, Latin America, Africa, Middle East and Russian markets. She will report to Tim Lee, president of international operations.
GM says international operations account for almost half of its sales.
Docherty had been vice president of U.S. sales, service and marketing. Her job eventually shrank to just marketing. She was replaced in that position earlier this month by former Hyundai marketing head Joel Ewanick.

Link
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this person apparently failed at her previous position, so she is now getting hired into a similar one.
Trilby • May 25, 2010 8:49 am
classicman;658064 wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this person apparently failed at her previous position, so she is now getting hired into a similar one.


That's GM's MO.

That's their entire philosophy of bidness, right there.
classicman • May 25, 2010 9:27 am
but - but - but we own them - it was gonna be different now ...
Take it away tw.
TheMercenary • May 25, 2010 11:05 am
:corn:
classicman • May 25, 2010 11:13 am
DBAD merc. tw will have some great insight into this.
Personally, I'm looking forward to it.
tw • May 25, 2010 9:57 pm
classicman;658316 wrote:
tw will have some great insight into this.
I wish I did. Because GM top management and the BoDs were so corrupt, then Rick Wagoner has zero chance of being fired. Finally Obama did what was that obvious and necessary.

A resulting and repeated top management shuffles have resulted in almost no information. Did the car guys finally take charge? Did a corporate war recently end? Not obvious.

Well, the Chevy Volt even could not work a few years ago when they tried to demonstrate it to a PBS show. The Volt was supposed to be out already. Something happened. The Chevy Volt is now scheduled for sale at the end of 2010. Was it delayed because car guys finally got control of the car? Are now trying to fix fundamental defects? Or do defect exist because bean counters have still subverted reliability? I cannot learn anything.

We can suspect the Volt is delayed to make something better. Just not known is why.

Unknown who is running GM. They are busy claiming profits and pay backs that sound so much like the money games of earlier years. Is GM really making profits? Even that is not obvious. Especially when GM (apparently) need not release detailed information.

Alan Mullaly said something stunning in a recent meeting I attended. All Fords will have four cylinder options by next year. That implies all Fords will have 70 HP/liter engines in all cars. All Ford cars will have as much horsepower as mid 1970 American V-8 cars. Ford is clearly innovating. Whereas I still would not buy a Ford. Anyone who is buying an American car should only consider Fords.

Marchionne has been making statements about Chrysler. Pushing the new Jeep. Does it still have a suspension and steering system that has always been defined as "barbaric"? Unknown if Chrysler’s car guys are finally designing cars. The new Jeep might be an indicator. Meanwhile, Chrysler will remain a dog until it start selling more reliable and superior engineered Fiats. That is still years away. And then we will see whether Marchionne's magic worked.

We know Ford has long been on the right track. Especially interesting is an apparent productive chemistry between Ford and Mullaly. There is very good reason to suspect Chrysler dealerships will have products to sell in a few years. GM remains a complete unknown. The battle between car guys and bean counters may be in full war mode. Or GM may be slowly converted from bean counter to car guy mentality. Almost complete silence says nothing useful.
Urbane Guerrilla • May 27, 2010 8:46 pm
Michael Medved has an interesting comment about GM's lack of innovation, attributing it to their being in chronic fear of being hit with a major antitrust suit. Senior management, he says, was supposed to let up on competitiveness to keep GM market share below fifty percent, typically about forty-five, and thus stay below the trustbuster radar. This meant, don't claw after that next half percent of market share by any of the competitive means, such as marketing ingenuity, price wars, or technical innovation. The eventual result was technical sclerosis for several decades and then slumping product quality, as everybody in the firm found other concerns than customer service, maintaining customer loyalty by making such things actually palpably beneficial, or really anything that makes a company a good one. Contrast that kind of attitude with, say, what goes on at your local Trader Joe's.

Makes you rethink the whole antitrust idea -- after all, is not the free market itself firmly and naturally anti-monopoly, as trust busting is alleged to be? Why, then, should it be required to bring suit against a business simply because it is successful in a very large way? What that really is is a pointer that says There's a really big market over here. Wanna get into it? Competitors barrel-roll in, many with what they hope is improved or just plain better technology than the pioneer outfit is using, to fill this need that has come up.

Five Big Lies About American Business is one heckuva book.
ZenGum • May 27, 2010 10:05 pm
tw;658421 wrote:


Well, the Chevy Volt even could not work a few years ago when they tried to demonstrate it to a PBS show. The Volt was supposed to be out already. Something happened. The Chevy Volt is now scheduled for sale at the end of 2010. Was it delayed because car guys finally got control of the car? Are now trying to fix fundamental defects? Or do defect exist because bean counters have still subverted reliability? I cannot learn anything.

We can suspect the Volt is delayed to make something better. Just not known is why.


Maybe the volt is dodgy, but the bean counters are forcing them to put it on sale anyway. Just a thought.


Urbane Guerrilla;658930 wrote:

Makes you rethink the whole antitrust idea -- after all, is not the free market itself firmly and naturally anti-monopoly...?



No. Well, not always. Bigger companies have an advantage over smaller companies (economies of scale, bargaining power, ability to survive lean times etc) and can often take over or put out of business smaller competitors. This tends toward monopoly, or at least oligopoly.

Now you might reply that ...


Competitors barrel-roll in, many with what they hope is improved or just plain better technology than the pioneer outfit is using, to fill this need that has come up.


Maybe if you're thinking of lemonade stands, but the cost of starting a car company must be in the billions, before the first sale. How many car company start ups have there been recently?

That said, if a company really did back off from improving their products out of fear of antitrust action, something has gone very wrong.

The market won't solve all our problems, but neither will the government.
tw • May 28, 2010 12:44 am
ZenGum;658951 wrote:
Maybe the volt is dodgy, but the bean counters are forcing them to put it on sale anyway. Just a thought.
Maybe. Maybe not. When Iacocca took over Chrysler, the K-car was a disaster designed by bean counters. Iacocca did an emergency total redesign that saved the K-car. And started the rescue of Chrysler. Then he used that design for mini-vans. Nobody previously had designed a new car that quickly. Did that happen with the Volt?

Economies of scale are a myth. Economies of scale only exist in smaller organizations. Why did GM products cost more to build than Mercedes? Because GM's scale made economies impossible.

If economies of scale existed, then Citigroup was the world's most efficient bank. Opposite was true because, again, that 'economies of scale' is only an economist's myth.

As 1980 Ford and IBM both demonstrated, 'economies' only existed after both companies massively downsized. Fiorina was so stupid in the HP Compaq merger meeting. She also repeated that economies of scale myth - claiming HP would be more profitable because they would be #1 in this business and #2 in that market. Reality. They had to throw her out to save HP. She promoted an 'economies of scale' myth because that is what they teach in business school. Fortunately, they threw her out before she did too much damage.

A company becomes #1 in the industry because they are innovative - first have 'economies'. But economists foolishly think if A results in B, then B must also result in B. Defective logic. If 'economies' result from being #1, then #1 must result in 'economies"? Total bullshit.

When a company is profitable, then it can become #1. If a company is #1, it does not automatically become profitable. Did the merger of Sears and Kmart make them more profitable? Of course not.

Mazda could sell less than 13,000 Myatas and be profitable. Due to 'economies of scale', GM could not be profitable on any model if selling less than 50,000. GM products always needed more parts to do same. Scale increased costs. Due to the 'economies of scale' myth, GM parts also cost more to build.

Auto companies would not innovate because management could not see an innovation if they sucked it up their nose. Then, as taught in the business schools, they invented excused to blame others. What made auto companies profitable and efficient? Downsizing. "Economies of smaller scale". Once a company achieves a certain size, then "negative economies" are created with increased scale.
ZenGum • May 28, 2010 2:34 am
So ... will UG change his position and agree with me, or hold his ground and agree with TW? Toughie ... :corn:
Shawnee123 • May 28, 2010 9:58 am
I don't know, but I love this intelligent discourse. [COLOR="SandyBrown"]Did that sound dirty?[/COLOR]
classicman • May 28, 2010 12:02 pm
tw;658984 wrote:
Why did GM products cost more to build than Mercedes? Because GM's scale made economies impossible.

'economies of scale' is only an economist's myth.

As 1980 Ford and IBM both demonstrated, 'economies' only existed after both companies massively downsized.

Due to the 'economies of scale' myth, GM parts also cost more to build.

What impact does the exorbitant benefit and pensions package have on costs? As more people retired there was an increase in fixed costs to cover them. right?

But economists foolishly think if A results in B, then B must also result in B. Defective logic. If 'economies' result from being #1, then #1 must result in 'economies"? Total bullshit.

Wait what? Where is that from? I'm missing something.


Downsizing. "Economies of smaller scale". Once a company achieves a certain size, then "negative economies" are created with increased scale.

Didn't reducing retirees benefits also have an impact? I'm not saying one is exclusive of the other, but as the number of retirees grew with benefits that were very costly to the companies, the companies fixed costs grew as well, decreasing profit margins.
tw • May 29, 2010 2:51 am
classicman;659054 wrote:
Didn't reducing retirees benefits also have an impact?
Once an employee retires, then that employee is no longer an expense to the company. Of course, that means the company is honest. Every day that employee works, the company puts a little more money in his pension fund. When the employee retires, only the pension fund - not the company - pays that retired employee.

But GM mortgaged everything to make management look good. GM stopped funding the pension fund decades ago so that the world's worse and most expensive cars would show a profit in the 1990s and 2000s. Why were pensions a problem for GM? In a world where bean counters screw everyone, the unfunded pension fund then gets blamed on union employees. When tens of $billions are owed to the pension fund, then GM knows a majority of Americans will blame the unions rather than blame what is taught in the business schools. GM did what any good business school graduate would do. Mortgage the company and then blame someone else.

Union costs were never a problem. Lying bean counters who stop funding pension were the problem. GM owed tens of $billions in unfunded pension obligations. Business school graduates who stifled innovation to make short term profits – that is GM's major problem. By shorting those $billions, GM could claim $millions of annual profits. Claim profits on cars that (if the bean counters were honest) should have forced GM into bankruptcy in 1991. Then when the spread sheets could not longer hide the truth, 'blame the unions' always works on an American public fed only by sound bytes. Unions never created any of this.

Once a bean counter is taught that “the purpose of a company is profits”, then his whole life purpose is similar to a mafia don. Do anything to make a profit. Unions did not create a problem that has existed in GM for more than 30 years. So who suffered because top management lied? Everyone except top GM management.

GM's pension problems are directly traceable to spread sheet spin. Other companies simply meet their pension obligations. GM stopped funding the pension funds in 1991 to avoid bankruptcy - to protect top management jobs and bonuses. 18 years later, the bills came due. So we should blame the unions? That is what GM did. GM called it legacy costs rather than call it by its real name - bean counter fraud.
classicman • May 29, 2010 4:06 pm
So simply stated, in one word, what you are saying is that the pensions & benefits for retirees are NOT a cost to a company?
tw • May 29, 2010 7:25 pm
classicman;659280 wrote:
So simply stated, in one word, what you are saying is that the pensions & benefits for retirees are NOT a cost to a company?
There is no one word. When the employee works one day, then one days penson is put into the fund. The day that employee retires, the company spends no more on the employee.

But when bean counters do their magic, then somehow those costs get mortgaged. Future generations must pay for that employee. Using propaganda, GM called that a legacy cost. Honda and Toyota have the same retired employees without any legacy costs. It's called honesty.
classicman • May 29, 2010 9:48 pm
It was a yes or no question. From your answer, I'm forced to assume a yes answer. However, I find it very difficult to believe.
tw • May 30, 2010 11:02 am
classicman;659326 wrote:
However, I find it very difficult to believe.
Pension and benefits are a cost to the company when the worker is working. Pension and benefits should not be a cost to the company when a worker is retires. So your answer is both "yes" and "no".

When a company is mortgaging its future to protect bean counter management, then pension and benefits remain a cost to the company years later. No 70 Horsepower per liter engines in all cars for 20 years. Cars that still required wheel alignment. Examples that say GM had no interest in honest accounting.

Any expense that remains unrealized for years is a profit to the company today. So now the answer is "yes". GM retired employees remain an expense to GM. GM did what was also situation normal on Wall Street.

You asked a question that is intentionally confusing. How many more "yes" and "nos" apply? Welcome to what was made acceptable in the 'new American finance' standards. Welcome to why finance people must be so heavily regulated. Welcome to the resulting melt down that happened 17 years later because GM management refused to address their management problems in 1991.

GM invented legacy costs without admitting to mafioso objectives. Screw the product; only reap profits. Those who only want “yes and no” answers were easily sold GM lies - ie legacy costs. GM management got even more bonuses for mortgaging America's future for personal gain. More “yes and no” answers are for those who ignore details of reality. Answer to your question are multiple "yes" and "no".
Urbane Guerrilla • May 30, 2010 11:26 am
If there's a real difference in principle between a five-dollar lemonade stand and a five billion dollar auto company, I've yet to hear of it. What effect could scale have upon principles?

Somebody will doubtless tell me enlarged scale would afford "more opportunities" to game the system. But does it really, and is there any difference in principle thereby?
classicman • May 30, 2010 1:26 pm
The impact of pension accounting on companies' financial statements
gvidas • May 30, 2010 1:50 pm
This American Life #403: NUMMI

A car plant in Fremont California that might have saved the U.S. car industry. In 1984, General Motors and Toyota opened NUMMI as a joint venture. Toyota showed GM the secrets of its production system: how it made cars of much higher quality and much lower cost than GM achieved. Frank Langfitt explains why GM didn't learn the lessons – until it was too late


Listening to it now.
Undertoad • May 30, 2010 3:06 pm
That's the plot of Gung Ho.
xoxoxoBruce • May 31, 2010 1:32 am
classicman;659326 wrote:
It was a yes or no question. From your answer, I'm forced to assume a yes answer. However, I find it very difficult to believe.
It's a qualified yes. GM did the same thing with the pension fund, that the Federal Government did with the Social Security Fund.

The deal was, that part of the huge profits they were making would go into the pension fund, and that would pay the pensions as they came due, with no drain on GM. But like the Feds, they stole the fucking money, so now it does impact GM.
ZenGum • May 31, 2010 4:46 am
Urbane Guerrilla;659450 wrote:
If there's a real difference in principle between a five-dollar lemonade stand and a five billion dollar auto company, I've yet to hear of it. What effect could scale have upon principles?


I almost put this in my first post, but I aim for shorter posts. They're more likely to get read.

If we keep things "in principle" or "in theory" then we are at risk of considering a spherical cow. That is, we have abstracted so far from reality that our findings are of little use. A lot of economic theory does this.

Is there a difference in principle between a lemonade stand and a car company? Well, true, much the same principles apply: supply, demand, costs, pricing, margin, return customers, etc etc.

In reality, if a lemonade stand is selling poor quality lemonade, any ambitious kid with $5 can start a competitor. Standard competition applies.
If a car company is selling poor quality cars, what happens? Start-up competitors? Hardly ever. People buy other cars. The company struggles, and either reforms, folds or gets taken over. Option A is status quo, B and C tend towards reduced competition.

The problem in a nutshell: in theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice, there often is.

It's an empirical question. Does a free market enhance competition? With respect to lemonade stands, probably yes. With respect to car companies, probably no. Look at car companies today. It is far too complicated for me to trace out, but most brands have been taken over by other companies. How many car companies does the US have today?
Urbane Guerrilla • May 31, 2010 6:09 am
Three, and the ones that aren't around any more weren't always merged, but simply closed shop.

Not necessarily the case for truck manufacture -- see the variegated history of White Motor Company, for one.

How old is Kia Motors? Wiki says its earliest incarnation was 1944 as a tubing and bike parts manufacturer. It set up shop in the US in 1992. How about Daewoo? Twenty-three years younger. And making cars for GM now... since 2001. Seems an example of capacity going on the market and being bought up.

All this hooraw and going through changes looks like free markets to me, particularly Daewoo's collapse as a conglomerate and its rebirths as sundry spinoff companies still doing what they started out as. This kind of thing goes on in free markets when a government makes a point of not muddying the waters. I'm not seeing a "reduction of competition" here. I get the feeling globalization is making such "reduction" an impossibility, as any entrepreneur can hurl himself at any market, anywhere on the globe these days.

Lemonade stands and auto manufacturing still obey the laws of economics.
classicman • Jun 1, 2010 4:02 pm
The Lessons of the GM Bankruptcy
Today is the first anniversary of one of this country's less-than-crowning milestones: the bankruptcy of General Motors, once the largest and richest company in the country, and indeed the world.

Keeping GM alive, albeit in shrunken form, was an expensive undertaking for America's taxpayers: about $65 billion in all, if one counts government aid to the company's former financial arm, formerly GMAC, now renamed Ally Bank. For all that money we, as a country, should take away some lessons from the experience. The following get my vote for the three most important:

• Problems denied and solutions delayed will result in a painful and costly day of reckoning.
• In corporate governance, the right people count more than the right structure.
• Appearances can be deceiving.

GM's current board—appointed by the company's controlling shareholder, the U.S. government—has a handful of holdovers from the prior board. Maybe they aren't bad people, but they surely showed judgment that was beyond bad. As the new GM prepares for an initial public offering of stock—so that the government can recoup the taxpayer investment—it will need credibility at the board level. The holdover directors should resign.

As for appearances versus facts, the GM bailout—along with the similar exercise at Chrysler—offers ample evidence. The understandable objection to bailouts is that they foster moral hazard, the willingness to act recklessly without fear of consequences. Yet the bailouts of these two companies had painful consequences aplenty for the major actors.

Shareholders of both companies got wiped out. Creditors took major hits, including those who held secured debt at Chrysler. (Their loans to the company were reckless, the equivalent of subprime mortgage loans, but they did recover more than they would have in a Chrysler liquidation.) Many workers and executives lost their jobs. Many dealers lost franchises. The Jobs Bank was abolished, albeit belatedly. So was no-cost health insurance.

All this seems plenty of pain to discourage future moral hazard. Letting the companies liquidate would have produced far more pain, of course, but much of it would have fallen on innocent bystanders—the ordinary citizens who participate in an economy that was on its knees last spring. The Obama administration, to its credit, tried to walk a fine line: doing enough for Detroit to protect the economy, but not doing so much to foster future irresponsible behavior.

Nobody on any point of America's political spectrum really liked this bailout. But having paid for it, let's hope that we as a nation are willing to learn from it.

Link
This guy takes some major shots at Ford as well.
TheMercenary • Jun 2, 2010 9:51 am
So why is Government Motors investing big in Canada? Shouldn't their charity start at home? We bail them out with tax dollars and they take the tax dollars to Canada? What gives...

http://www.buffalonews.com/2010/06/02/1068559/gm-investing-big-in-st-catharines.html
Spexxvet • Jun 2, 2010 3:13 pm
TheMercenary;659949 wrote:
So why is Government Motors investing big in Canada? Shouldn't their charity start at home? We bail them out with tax dollars and they take the tax dollars to Canada? What gives...

http://www.buffalonews.com/2010/06/02/1068559/gm-investing-big-in-st-catharines.html


They are whores, who will do anything to put more dollars in their own pockets. Capitalism at its finest.
TheMercenary • Jun 2, 2010 4:26 pm
And the beat goes on....

TORONTO — General Motors Canada is expanding a southern Ontario parts plant for the second time in a month and suggesting more growth is on the way as the formerly bankrupt auto giant recovers and introduces new vehicles to the market.

The $245 million committed to build new transmissions at GM's St. Catharines, Ont., plant reflects a brighter future for the company and Canadians should "stay tuned" for further announcements, said new company president Kevin Williams.

"As we bring new vehicles and new technologies to the marketplace, certainly Canada will play a very important role in the future success of General Motors in that regard, and while I can't announce any (specifics) I would say, 'Stay tuned,"' Williams said in an interview.

"Going forward we do believe in the workforce. We have a great relationship with our unions here and we have some of the best, most efficient plants in the world."

Earlier Tuesday, the automaker said it will build a new line of fuel-efficient six-speed transmissions at its St. Catharines plant beginning in 2012. The investment will secure 400 existing jobs at the company's operations in the industrial city in the Niagara Region.

The announcement follows on the heels of another major investment in late April that will see the company build a new generation of V8 engines at the same plant beginning in 2013. In total, GM has announced $480 million in new spending on the factory, securing about 800 jobs.

GM's Canadian operations used to employ tens of thousands of workers before a series of cuts over the last decade or so pared the workforce significantly. The automaker shut down its truck plant in Oshawa, Ont., last year, shedding about 2,600 jobs, and will close its transmission plant in Windsor, Ont., in July, putting about 1,000 more people out of work.

"While those were difficult decisions I'm really happy that we're able to demonstrate the ability to reinvest in the business where it's meaningful," said Williams, who took over as GM Canada's new president in March, succeeding Arturo Elias.

Analysts said the most likely future investment GM Canada will make would be to expand vehicle production at its major assembly complex in Oshawa, where it builds the Chevrolet Camaro and Impala and will begin building a Chevrolet convertible and the Buick Regal next year.


http://autos.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Autos/20100602/hm-canada-investments-100602/?s_name=Autos
spudcon • Jun 2, 2010 5:18 pm
After reading this entire post, I was wondering how long it would take someone to notice GM was following the New Deal Ponzi scheme the government calls Social Security. Good call Bruce. Now, when talking about corporate big wigs making millions more than the workers, does no one notice Presidents, Senators and Congressmen make millions more than those who are doing the work? Where's the outrage there? Letting Obama run GM is just putting an unexperienced bunch of bean counters in charge. (It's also illegal.)
Carry on, I've had my rant.
TheMercenary • Jun 2, 2010 6:34 pm
spudcon;660046 wrote:
After reading this entire post, I was wondering how long it would take someone to notice GM was following the New Deal Ponzi scheme the government calls Social Security. Good call Bruce. Now, when talking about corporate big wigs making millions more than the workers, does no one notice Presidents, Senators and Congressmen make millions more than those who are doing the work? Where's the outrage there? Letting Obama run GM is just putting an unexperienced bunch of bean counters in charge. (It's also illegal.)
Carry on, I've had my rant.
Expect few responses in support of that notion...
Clodfobble • Jun 2, 2010 7:17 pm
spudcon wrote:
Now, when talking about corporate big wigs making millions more than the workers, does no one notice Presidents, Senators and Congressmen make millions more than those who are doing the work?


Admittedly, it's hard to notice things that aren't true. Current salary for Congressmen: $174,000 per year. Current salary of the President: $400,000 per year.

Some politicians are certainly millionaires, and a few even multimillionaires, but they accomplished that through other ventures, not their politician's pay.
Spexxvet • Jun 2, 2010 7:48 pm
Clodfobble;660064 wrote:
Admittedly, it's hard to notice things that aren't true. Current salary for Congressmen: $174,000 per year. Current salary of the President: $400,000 per year.

Some politicians are certainly millionaires, and a few even multimillionaires, but they accomplished that through other ventures, not their politician's pay.


You're in for it now, Clod. Be prepared for this, starting with post #40.
TheMercenary • Jun 2, 2010 8:06 pm
Clodfobble;660064 wrote:
Admittedly, it's hard to notice things that aren't true. Current salary for Congressmen: $174,000 per year. Current salary of the President: $400,000 per year.

Some politicians are certainly millionaires, and a few even multimillionaires, but they accomplished that through other ventures, not their politician's pay.


Absolutely right. And the amount they make now is nothing compared to the future earnings. I am sure Obama will just give all of his future earnings to the poor in Chicago.
Clodfobble • Jun 3, 2010 10:14 am
Meh. I don't really care. The rich have always been in charge. But in the case of politicians, the "rich" part almost always came before the "in charge" part. My cousin was actually looking to run for public office awhile back, and after a bit of examination he realized that it would not be possible for him to run his full-time business and be a politician at the same time. If you want a huge payoff, you stay in the private sector--politics gets you power, but the money realistically has to come from somewhere else.