ACORN'S HOUSING-RIGHTS HUSTLERS
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PRESIDENT Obama used his speech last night to advance his massive government plan to help "responsible" homeowners avoid foreclosure. While gently acknowledging that "people bought homes they knew they couldn't afford," Obama blasted banks and lenders who "pushed those bad loans anyway."
What you didn't hear from Obama's lips: While I support efforts to keep people in their homes, I condemn the lawless tactics of my old friends at the Association of Community Orga nizations for Reform Now. ACORN's "civil disobedience" campaign is in full swing across the country - bolstering the Obama housing rights' agenda with media-friendly tales of foreclosure woes.
But a closer look at ACORN's sob stories shows that the prototypical foreclosure "victims" don't deserve an ounce of sympathy - or a cent of our money.
Earlier this week, ACORN activists broke into a foreclosed home in Baltimore. With a mob cheering and camera crew taping, Baltimore ACORN leader Louis Beverly busted a padlock and jimmied the door open at 315 South Ellwood Ave. The home once belonged to restaurant worker Donna Hanks, who assailed her evil bank for raising her mortgage by $300 and leaving her on the street.
What ACORN didn't tell you: Hanks' house was sold in June 2008 for $192,000. She bought it in 2001 for $87,000. At some point in the next five years, she refinanced the original home loan for $270,000. Where did all that money go?
The property initially went into foreclosure proceedings in spring 2006. Hanks soon filed for bankruptcy and agreed to a Chapter 13 plan to pay back her bank and other creditors. But she didn't comply with the legally binding plan. In December 2007, the loan servicer issued a notice of default on nearly $7,000 past due.
While she was reneging on her mortgage IOUs, she managed to rack up a criminal record on charges of theft and second-degree assault. The house was sold seven months ago after two years of court-negotiated attempts to allow Hanks to dig out of her debt hole.
Beverly was charged with burglary for the break-in and released. He is literally a housing thug - having been charged with a separate second-degree assault and property destruction earlier this year.
The Washington Post spotlighted Beverly's and Hanks' activism without following up on their criminal records and financial negligence. The paper also shilled for ACORN foreclosure "victim" Veronica Peterson of Columbia, Md., recycling uncritically her claim that she had been tricked into buying a $545,000 home by a broker who inflated her income and misrepresented her assets.
But Edward Ericson Jr., a reporter for the Baltimore City Paper, found that the "victim" - who took out a full mortgage with no down payment on a house she couldn't afford - looks more like a predatory borrower. Amazingly, Peterson lived in the home more than a year without paying rent or mortgage.
"The online court and land records show that Peterson closed on the house on Nov. 3, 2006, with two loans from Washington Mutual. The main mortgage, for $436,000, had a starting interest rate of 8.5 percent, adjusting in December . . . The second loan, often called a 'piggyback,' totaled $109,000 with an interest rate of 11.25 percent . . . Those two payments together would have totaled $3,386.17 per month. That's before property taxes, upkeep, utilities, etc. Peterson would have to earn at least $50,000 per year just to make her house payments."
The foreclosure was filed in July 2007. "The balance on the main note then was $435,735.86," Ericson reported, plus unpaid interest and late fees - suggesting she made at most one payment on the house. "Had she made all of her payments, Peterson would have spent about $64,335 so far. Had she rented a similar place, she would have been charged around $2,500 per month - a total of $47,500 - since January 2007. Instead, she apparently paid nothing."
Who are the true victims? If only the reporters swallowing their stories were half as diligent about background checks of ACORN thugs as they were with Joe the Plumber.
Are these the exception or the rule?
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Are these the exception or the rule?
ACORN is indeed organizing acts of civil disobedience to help home owners facing foreclosure.
The
=22533&tx_ttnews[backPid]=12387&cHash=933307a56f"]Home Staying campaign is described on the ACORN website.
Teams of ACORN Home Defenders – volunteers from local communities – will employ civil disobedience as needed to help people who have faced foreclosure to stay in their homes until a comprehensive federal solution has been put in place.
"Once they have your home, there's nothing you can do except to resort to civil disobedience," said Baltimore ACORN Foreclosure Fighters Co-Chair Louis Beverly, a leader in the Baltimore Home Staying campaign. "We're trying to get loans modified so that people can stay in their homes."
The details about the specific "victim" in Baltimore, as described by Michele Malkin in her NY Post editorial? Thats a different story.
Hell, its Michele Malkin, a habitual liar in pursuit of her personal political agenda. I would like to see the more questionable allegations in her editioral verified by a reputable source.
In any case, IMO, the ACORN act is much like those acts committed by groups like
Operation Rescue in the past, who would use civil disobedience to block abortion clinics, including questionable tactics against women entering such clinics and or the doctors/employees working in such clinics.
I recall Malkin praising such efforts in the past as "front line fighters for justice." So whats the difference between ACORN and Operation Rescue?
The ACORN (or Operation Rescue) dramatic and very public type actions are not my style of political protest, but if groups want to engage in acts of civil disobedience and accept the consequences, its ok with me up until the point they approach physical violence, personal intimidation or threats of violence, or gross destruction of property.
ACORN is the douchebag organization that blackmailed loan companies to force loan approval for the unqualified hopeful homebuyers on the grounds that everyone deserves to own a home. Now that it has become apparent that maybe, possibly, these people couldn't get loans before because they didn't deserve them ACORN wants to come up with some noble civil disobedience. Bullshit. They're trespassing, arrest and try them.
ACORN is the douchebag organization that blackmailed loan companies to force loan approval for the unqualified hopeful homebuyers ....
Blackmailed loan companies?
WTF are you talking about.
This is the kind of bullshit that gives you zero credibility.
Yes...the should get arrested for trespassing. In part, that is their intent.
Love it or hate it, that is what is at the heart of civil disobedience.
Whether it is ACORN occupying foreclosed homes.
Or Operation Rescue blocking health clinics.
Or Black college kids in the 60s breaking public accommodation laws and sitting in at "whites only" lunch counters in southern cities.
The hypocrisy of the selective outrage of folks like Michele Malkin is what is laughable.
Look up ACORN's activities with mortgage companies in the late 1990's and the beginning of this decade. I challenge you to really look at it and then call it anything but legalized blackmail. ACORN is far far from black college kids of the 60's trying to get equality.
Look up ACORN's activities with mortgage companies in the late 1990's and the beginning of this decade. I challenge you to really look at it and then call it anything but legalized blackmail. ACORN is far far from black college kids of the 60's trying to get equality.
I know that ACORN is the latest and greatest bogeyman to the far right.
But ACORN did not commit commit widespread voter fraud during the last election as alleged by Malkin and others
There is not $$millions in the economic recovery bill for ACORN as alleged by several Republican members of Congress.
And ACORN did not blackmail loan companies as you allege, unless lobbying for the CRA is considered blackmail by wingnuts.
Filter out all the bullshit, including all of the above as well as the unsubstantiated and sensationalist allegations in Malkin's editorial, and judge the ACORN "home staying campaign" for what it is - a self-descibed act of civil disobediance.
I wouldnt participate in it, but I dont find it to be so outrageous...or at least any more so than other political acts of civil disobediance.
And that would go back to what was probably the first act of civil disobediance in the country (or soon to be country) - the Boston Tea Party.
ACORN had a nice racket before the housing bubble. They'd approach subprime lenders and let them know they didn't like their lending practices and they were going to be acting on the behalf of those descriminated against. (That would be non-white people) If the companies lowered their credit standards and gave a nice donation to ACORN they went away quietly. If they didn't ACORN called borrowers with hispanic last names and told them they might not have to repay their mortgages if they'd just tell a few little lies. Lies like "i don't speak english", "i didn't understand my loan", "I was declined because I'm not white". They would then take these fools on a nice PR campaign boycotting mortgage company offices with signs and geniuses wearing shark suits. Most of the claims were dismissed rather quickly in court - such as the one from the lady who claimed she was taken advantage of because she didn't know english... but gave her deposition in english. or the man who claimed he didn't understand the loan documents... until it was pointed out he was the guy who did all the purchase contracts for a large retail real estate company.
Unfortunately ACORN is well aware the damage bad PR does so most of the mortgage companies wrote checks and approved loans for the credit unworthy to avoid the hassle.
Don't pretend ACORN is some benevolent organization out to help the little guy. They are crooks.
ACORN had a nice racket before the housing bubble. They'd approach subprime lenders and let them know they didn't like their lending practices and they were going to be acting on the behalf of those descriminated against. (That would be non-white people) If the companies lowered their credit standards and gave a nice donation to ACORN they went away quietly. If they didn't ACORN called borrowers with hispanic last names and told them they might not have to repay their mortgages if they'd just tell a few little lies. Lies like "i don't speak english", "i didn't understand my loan", "I was declined because I'm not white". They would then take these fools on a nice PR campaign boycotting mortgage company offices with signs and geniuses wearing shark suits. Most of the claims were dismissed rather quickly in court - such as the one from the lady who claimed she was taken advantage of because she didn't know english... but gave her deposition in english. or the man who claimed he didn't understand the loan documents... until it was pointed out he was the guy who did all the purchase contracts for a large retail real estate company.
Unfortunately ACORN is well aware the damage bad PR does so most of the mortgage companies wrote checks and approved loans for the credit unworthy to avoid the hassle.
Don't pretend ACORN is some benevolent organization out to help the little guy. They are crooks.
YIKES....the ACORN boogeyman is everywhere!
Believe what you want....but you dont have any facts to support the bogus fear-mongering charges of the far right fringe.
Congraulations on your appaling ignornance or blind fealty to the wingnut version of truth, justice and the Amerixcan way. :)
The GOP Blame ACORN GAME - certainly as credible as Michelle Malkin.
Believe what you want....but you dont have any facts to support the bogus fear-mongering charges of the far right fringe.
Congraulations on your appaling ignornance or blind fealty to the wingnut version of truth, justice and the Amerixcan way. :)
Wow, you really are impressive. It's almost like you know me better than I know myself. :rolleyes:
From where I stand I see your logic as follows:
1) Michelle Malkin = stupid and bad
2) Michelle Malkin doesn't like ACORN
3) ACORN = Admirable organization
Did I miss a step there? It doesn't seem to make much more sense than the underpants' gnomes business plan. Do you normally throw out the "you believe differently so you must be ignorant" card so quickly or was this a special event?
My opinion on ACORN isn't based on some 2nd rate blogger or the latest Hannity/Limbaugh rants. The events I described are events that I personally witnessed. I am intimately familiar with the ACORN M.O. I can see how your logic is easier to grasp though, in a back of the shortbus kind of way.
The problem here is that if what I say is true and your great savior worked with them... then maybe he isn't so spotless either... uh, oh - better ignore that. Wouldn't want your head to explode afterall.
I am not defending ACORN.....I am simply looking for documentation of their alleged criminal acts.
When charges are made of blackmailing loan companies or having a crooked racket responsible for the housing bubble.....I would like to see something factual to back it up....not "google it yourself" or "I saw it firsthand."
WHy is that so hard to provide credible and independent documentatoin of ACORN'S alleged criminal activities if such activities are so wdiespread?
WHy cant conservatives ever provide FACTS? It's alway "I saw it first hand" or "I read that Joe Schmoe said on Rush Limbaugh or saw it on Malkin that he said his cousin saw...."
If you saw it firsthand, did you report it? If not, why not?
Facts, dude!
:lol2: I just read through your link. That is some excellent spin ya got there Tex. It doesn't line up with the facts as I experienced them, but it is a good read.
WHy is that so hard to provide if ACORN's criminal activities are so wdiespread?
Maybe I should correct my phrasing. Criminal does imply they were actually tried and convicted of something and that certainly didn't happen. ACORN plays within the letter of the law as an organization. They certainly can't be held responsible if their members stretch the boundaries some. ;) Any challenge of their motives or methods is met with cries of racism and discrimination while they run for the cover of their "helping the downtrodden" mission statement.
But now that I think about it you're probably right. I mean, really, it's easy to see how those wingnuts rightwingers can be fooled by propaganda - they're stupid afterall. You and yours are much to intelligent to buy propaganda hook, line, and sinker though. My bad.
I dont claim the Nation is without its own spin....but I am not the one making allegations.
You made the charge of ACORN being crooked with some racket that caused the housing bubble.
Sepmats made the charge of blackmailing loan companies.
So..document it!
Support your allegation with facts from an independent source.
Why is that so hard?
If you saw it firsthand, did you report it? If not, why not?
Actually I did. That was buried somewhere in the multiple hours of my multiple depositions though. The newspapers and news channels were more than happy to run the stories of mortgage and loan fraud ACORN provided them with, but they weren't in such a hurry to run the news when those stories turned out to be false.
WHy cant conservatives ever provide FACTS? It's alway "I saw it first hand" or "I read that Joe Schmoe said on Rush Limbaugh or saw it on Malkin that he said his cousin saw...."
How is this a conservative/liberal issue? You slag off those who don't like ACORN and post a link to a spin article as your support. I make a statement and describe my personal experiences but somehow it becomes a "conservatives never have proof" issue? Brilliant.
Actually I did. That was buried somewhere in the multiple hours of my multiple depositions though. The newspapers and news channels were more than happy to run the stories of mortgage and loan fraud ACORN provided them with, but they weren't in such a hurry to run the news when those stories turned out to be false.
How is this a conservative/liberal issue? You slag off those who don't like ACORN and post a link to a spin article as your support. I make a statement and describe my personal experiences but somehow it becomes a "conservatives never have proof" issue? Brilliant.
I am just asking for facts to support your allegation...and the previous allegation of blackmailing.
I wasnt the one to make those allegations of illegal or crooked acts by ACORN.
In all these years and with all these allegations, why is there never any documentation....its all hearsay or second hand or regurgitation of the same talking points....but never any facts...never any sources!
If it is so evident, why have there never been any investigations or charges against ACORN for alleged blackmailing or corruption anywhere in the country?
So now you suggest it was "buried" in your multiple hours of depositions and ignored by the court and/or local media...who somehow would rather protect ACORN than investigate an alleged criminal activity or report a news breaking story about how they corrupted the housing finance market.
Can you understand why that might be hard to accept?
Good point. It must not have happened.
Good point. It must not have happened.
Shouldn't it be "innocent until proven guilty" rather than "guilty until proven innocent?"
Thats all I am suggesting.
However you want to look at it is cool with me. I know my personal experiences with ACORN over a period of 2 years. I know who they are and how they operate. They are a very well organized smash and grab operation with good PR. That doesn't jive with your view of them. I'm cool with that. In all honesty I believe I could provide you with video of the legal proceedings and transcripts and it still wouldn't change your view of things. Doesn't bother me a bit, you'll just have to pardon me if I chuckle a bit at your indignation at the "wingnuts" ability to be bite onto the talking points.
In all honesty I believe I could provide you with video of the legal proceedings and transcripts and it still wouldn't change your view of things.
Feel free to post the video of the legal proceedings and transcripts and we can discuss it further. ;)
Yeah, I'll get right on that.
However you want to look at it is cool with me. I know my personal experiences with ACORN over a period of 2 years. I know who they are and how they operate....
BTW, I worked with ACORN as well on national lobbying coalitions over time, particularly on CDBG issues.
I didnt particularly like their lobbying style...a bit too aggressive and confrontational for me and some others in the coalition. But when hardball was needed, they were the first to step to the plate.
In much the same manner as other advocacy organizations play hardball...the NRA comes to mind..or even AARP....those grannies can be bitch to lobby with or against. And both have massive PR campaigns on their issues of interest that dwarf anything ACORN does.
That doesnt make them unethical or crooked or their acts illegal.
Yeah, I'll get right on that.
I wont hold my breath.
That doesnt make them unethical or crooked or their acts illegal.
No, but if they contacted people and instructed them to lie in order to squeeze money out of companies then, yes they would also be unethical. Then again, I'm biased as I think all lobby groups should be illegal but I know that'll never change. Lobbyists rank just below child rapists in my book.
.... Lobbyists rank just below child rapists in my book.
Thank you for such an astute and objective observation. :eek:
[FONT="Comic Sans MS"][SIZE="3"]
"To generalize is to be an idiot...."[/SIZE][/FONT][INDENT]~William Blake[/INDENT]
But then again, I do have general thoughts about wingnuts who can never provide the facts to support their baseless allegations. ;)
"To generalize is to be an idiot...."
Fair enough. Let me be more specific. Individuals who choose to make their living attempting to buy politicians in a legal manner are human fucksticks who I rate just below child rapists on the scale of asshattery.
so take your little winking smilie and choke to death on it.
sincerely,
Lookout
Fair enough. Let me be more specific. Individuals who choose to make their living attempting to buy politicians in a legal manner are human fucksticks who I rate just below child rapists on the scale of asshattery.
so take your little winking smilie and choke to death on it.
sincerely,
Lookout
Damn, dude.....All that anger and ignorance is really not good for your health.
But I wish you well.
From a former lobbyist who never spent a dime on a politician, relying solely on the facts on the ground and the goodwill of people with shared interests to make my case...sometimes more successfully than others. :)
Thats probably why you are a "former" lobbyist. :rolleyes:
Yep...after a couple years, I was burned out.
Not ashamed to admit that its demoralizing and it takes it toll when the deck is stacked against you.
Such is the life of a low paid, public interest lobbyist.
Now I have a cushy public interest job! I paid my dues and I earned it.
Fair enough. Let me be more specific. Individuals who choose to make their living attempting to buy politicians in a legal manner are human fucksticks who I rate just below child rapists on the scale of asshattery.
so take your little winking smilie and choke to death on it.
sincerely,
Lookout
Damm right. As we have seen right here.
Damm right. As we have seen right here.
And yet with all this honesty and now Merc's added affirmation of the sincere wishes, still absolutely nothing to support the allegations made about ACORN.
Nice deflection, guys! :D
I trust the experince that lookout related. Combined with reports in the press about their practices during the election, that is good enough for me.
I trust the experince that lookout related. Combined with reports in the press about their practices during the election, that is good enough for me.
Merc...why am I not surprised that its "good enough for you" to believe hearsay ("
the courts and the media hid my testimony and covered up for acorn") and sensationalism in the press stirred up by the right
("acorn's massive election fraud" that never resulted in any charges) if it supports your pre-determined belief, rather than seek out the facts.
Dont you want to at least watch his video and read his transcripts with me?
Maybe if you ask nicely, he will post it for us. :)
"Still, a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest." -- Paul Simon, The Boxer
Merc...why am I not surprised that its "good enough for you" to believe hearsay
Depends on who is giving the hearsay.
I also suspect that posting videos and transcripts may be legally fraught.
Knowing that you were/are a lobbyist Redux certainly changes the way I read your posts.
I do recall more than one interview with ACORN voter registration takers, they were quite honest about the things they did. Unless you are trying to say this was some kind of Right-wing Conspiracy ala Hillary Clinton, I have not seen much that supports their good work that wasn't published by them or equally partisan left-wingers. That is the problem with our Informations Super Highway (Thanks Al Gore!).
Merc...why am I not surprised that its "good enough for you" to believe hearsay ("the courts and the media hid my testimony and covered up for acorn") and sensationalism in the press stirred up by the right ("acorn's massive election fraud" that never resulted in any charges) if it supports your pre-determined belief, rather than seek out the facts.
The courts didn't hide anything that I'm aware of. You asked why I didn't tell anyone about my experiences with ACORN and I simply stated that I did. My depositions disclosed my experiences.
1) I wrote loans for people. I don't read or write spanish so I've never done a loan for anyone who doesn't speak English.
2) Several of my clients, along with many more that ACORN rounded up, claimed they spoke no english so didn't understand the loans.
3) ACORN got plenty of press by having jackasses in shark costumes walk picket lines in front of our offices. The news ran stories featuring "poor families who were taken advantage of".
4) When the cases I was involved in (and many of the others I'm aware of) progressed they either fell apart before or during the first appearance in court. They all spoke english. They all read english. they all had crappy credit that is why they had 7-9% mortgages, language and skin color were irrelevent. In the end several of the people admitted ACORN representatives called them (ACORN admitted to pulling loan records and contacting clients) and told them they might not have to pay their mortgages if they said they didn't understand what they signed because of language problems. ACORN of course said maybe an overzealous rep or too might have stepped out of bounds (kind of like what they said when the voter registration fraud came up)
5) Like many other companies targeted by ACORN my company found it easier to write a big check to ACORN for their "community education programs" and make the story go away. ACORN cashed their check and moved onto their next victim(I believe Wells Fargo was the next to follow in our steps, but I'm not positive). Some of the AG's involved in the cases got bumped into governor's mansions. The company agreed to a gag order on any info beyond a touchy feely ACORN helped the little guy press release.
That's the long and short of it. No information was hidden from the courts. The courts simply didn't care. We were sued, cases were dismissed, negative press was affecting business, so the company wrote a check. ACORN wins.
A pretty good original source. LO has my vote.
No information was hidden from the courts. The courts simply didn't care. We were sued, cases were dismissed, negative press was affecting business, so the company wrote a check. ACORN wins.
Thats their M.O. Use people to get more money and more power. Illegal? ......Probably.
Provable.... Probably not.
Unethical ...Damn skippy
Jesse Jackson perfected the scam years ago, they are just following an out of the box system.
Filtering through all of the above, here is what emerged for me:
In the past, ACORN exercised its right of peaceful assembly and speech and held protest rallies in front of Lehman Bros or Wells Fargo to highlight what they considered to have been predatory lending practices and redlining.....and you dont agree with their tactics or their message and somehow that makes it unethical if not illegal.
And still lingering is Lookout's still undocumented "personal" account of alleged illegal activities that the courts ignored.
Bottom line is that ACORN has never been charged with any criminal activities in either their voting registration activities or their housing finance advocacy activities.
You just dont like the way they do business...and that is your right. I dont agree with all of their practices either.
IMO, what is unethical is making allegations of criminal activities that you cant document.
What sucks for you Redux is that we've had much more interaction with lookout than you and as such trust his word at face value. Your blanket suspicion isn't flying because you're the only one here who has an unfounded, inherent distrust of what he has said to have experienced.
What sucks for you Redux is that we've had much more interaction with lookout than you and as such trust his word at face value. Your blanket suspicion isn't flying because you're the only one here who has an unfounded, inherent distrust of what he has said to have experienced.
Right...I dont find it credible that a court would simply ignore an allegation of illegal activities and that as lookout seemed to imply, it was because of some kind of unexplained court sympathy for ACORN...Perhaps they reviewed the allegations and found that they were w/o merit.
I have no idea, nor does lookout as to if or why his allegations were ignored.
And the fact still remains....ACORN has never been charged with any criminal activities in either their voters registration activities or their housing finance advocacy activities.
Unless its all part of a vast left wing conspiracy or cover up, this fact of no charges against ACORN anywhere in the country might lead one to conclude that their activities have not been illegal as charged here.
I understand why that sucks for the ACORN accusers.
Redux I think you may be operating under the incorrect assumption that I'm trying to convince you of something. I stated my experiences, you don't believe them. That's cool, move on. I will be after this post. I believe I clarified earlier that even I couldn't specifically prove that the events I witnessed were part of a formal ACORN business plan. That would be illegal. They are very good at keeping themselves out of trouble by using the rogue rep ploy.
I'm not part of the republican party, as I find them just as repulsive as the democratic party. My statements in this thread weren't a right/left pile on. I related my personal experiences which you can choose to believe or not, that's up to you.
Sounds like the mob! Everyone knows who they are and what they do. Not all of them have charges brought up tough.
Lookouts word is gold around here. You are a newcomer who is an admitted lobbyist. BTW - who are you lobbying for now? ACORN or one of their many shell companies, err I mean subsidiaries?
Lookouts word is gold around here. You are a newcomer who is an admitted lobbyist. BTW - who are you lobbying for now? ACORN or one of their many shell companies, err I mean subsidiaries?
Thanks, classic.
I understand now that a member's word can be more golden than the facts and certainly more than ... :eek: ....an admitted lobbyist....particularly if you are predisposed to share that member's opinion.
And presumption of innocence need not apply.
Who needs officials findings of violations of law in order to point your finger at people (or organizations), with whom you might disagree, and declare "guilty" of criminal activity.
I accept the verdict of the lookout/merc/classic court.....ACORN is guilty of high crimes for being an aggressive lobbying and community based organization.
Should I presume you share this sentiment as well:
[INDENT]
Lobbyists rank just below child rapists in my book...
[/INDENT]
Just nod, no independent thinking required!
Generally speaking, I hear stuff like the ACORN vote rigging, or their actions around mortgages, and I assume bias and misinformation. But Lookout, I trust. I don't necessarily share his analysis, but if he tells me he experienced those actions then he experienced those actions.
Thanks, classic.
I understand now that a member's word can be more golden than the facts and certainly more than ... :eek: ....an admitted lobbyist....
you're welcome. Yeh, I've been here for years and not that L123 needs it, but I will certainly defend him.
Generally speaking, I hear stuff like the ACORN vote rigging, or their actions around mortgages, and I assume bias and misinformation. But Lookout, I trust. I don't necessarily share his analysis, but if he tells me he experienced those actions then he experienced those actions.
Dana...thank you for a reasonable and rationale response and defense of your friend's position.
you're welcome. Yeh, I've been here for years and not that L123 needs it, but I will certainly defend him.
Classic....thank for showing your true CLASS by acknowledging that defense of your friend's position required you to join his assault on the character of another member.
Just because someone'e been here for a long time doesn't mean they're right...or wrong.
My point?
Length of membership doesn't give you special priviledges...
...or does it?
It's not about length of membership. Well...maybe a little, but only inasmuch as, with someone who has been here longer we're more likely to have formed a 'reliable' opinion on their character. Having spent a few years getting to know Lookout, I feel fairly confident in suggesting that one of his character traits is scrupulous honesty.
What sucks for you Redux is that we've had much more interaction with lookout than you and as such trust his word at face value. Your blanket suspicion isn't flying because you're the only one here who has an unfounded, inherent distrust of what he has said to have experienced.
ditto
Jesse Jackson perfected the scam years ago, they are just following an out of the box system.
I do remember that quite well. PUSH did perfect it. Seems like ACORN is not quite as good at the scam though.
What sucks for you Redux is that we've had much more interaction with lookout than you and as such trust his word at face value. Your blanket suspicion isn't flying because you're the only one here who has an unfounded, inherent distrust of what he has said to have experienced.
Hey. Im not questioning his honesty in one regard. Particularly when he finally said,
"I couldn't specifically prove that the events I witnessed were part of a formal ACORN business plan...."
What I think is dishonest is his
blanket suspicion and
unfounded, inherent distrust and characterization of every person who works in the lobbying industry with one broad stroke:
[INDENT]
Lobbyists rank just below child rapists in my book...
Let me be more specific. Individuals who choose to make their living attempting to buy politicians in a legal manner are human fucksticks who I rate just below child rapists on the scale of asshattery.[/INDENT]
I honestly dont know how any objective observer would not see this as having a bias that might impact his thinking on the subject.
But I understand now that his unfounded
blanket suspicion carries more weight than mine.
Perhaps I should just proceed with the "knowledge" that every one in the housing finance industry is equally despicable because of a few greedy and unethical rogues in the business.
With that, I am done with this discussion.
Its been...interesting? ... to say the least.
But I understand now that his unfounded blanket suspicion carries more weight than mine.
Perhaps I should just proceed with the "knowledge" that every one in the housing finance industry is equally despicable because of a few greedy and unethical rogues in the business.
Here..here.
Classic....thank for showing your true CLASS by acknowledging that defense of your friend's position required you to join his assault on the character of another member.
I believe it was YOU who attacked him. He defended himself. It was you who challenged his credibility. I defended it. For the record, L123 is not my "friend."
And exactly what politician is going to challenge an organization like ACORN during an election year? They have to be nuts too.
BTW, you didn't answer the question -
Who are you lobbying for now?I believe it was YOU who attacked him. He defended himself. It was you who challenged his credibility. I defended it. For the record, L123 is not my "friend."
And exactly what politician is going to challenge an organization like ACORN during an election year? They have to be nuts too.
BTW, you didn't answer the question - Who are you lobbying for now?
Right...asking him to document his allegations that ACORN is a crooked organization engaging in illegal practices is a personal attack.
And of course all lobbyists are a lower life form than child rapists and the housing finance industry is above reproach.
Predatory lending? bah, humbug...a figment of the imagination of groups like ACORN.
And a 2000
HUD-Treasury report on Predatory Lending that described past predatory lending practices is just a load of crap:
[INDENT]Over the last several years, our nation has made enormous progress in expanding access to capital for previously under served borrowers. Despite this progress, however,
too many families are suffering today because of a growing incidence of abusive practices in a segment of the mortgage lending market. Predatory mortgage lending practices strip borrowers of home equity and threaten families with foreclosure, destabilizing the very communities that are beginning to enjoy the fruits of our nation’s economic success.[/INDENT]
...Throughout the HUD-Treasury forums, there was substantial evidence of too-frequent abuses in the subprime lending market. These abuses tended to fall into four main categories:
Loan Flipping – Some mortgage originators refinanced borrowers’ loans repeatedly in a short period of time. With each successive refinancing, these originators charged high fees, including sometimes prepayment penalties, that stripped borrowers’ equity in their homes.
Excessive fees and “packing” – While subprime lending involves higher costs to the lender than prime lending, in many instances the Task Force saw evidence of fees that far exceeded what would be expected or justified based on economic grounds, and fees that were “packed” into the loan amount without the borrower’s understanding.
Lending without regard to the borrower’s ability to repay – One troubling practice involved lending based on borrowers’ equity in their homes, where the borrowers clearly did not have the capacity to repay the loans. In particularly egregious cases, elderly people living on fixed incomes had monthly payments that equaled or exceeded their monthly incomes. Such loans quickly led borrowers into default and foreclosure.
Outright fraud and abuse – In many instances, abusive practices amount to nothing less than outright fraud. We heard many stories from borrowers who testified at the regional forums of fraud perpetrated by unscrupulous mortgage brokers, lenders, home improvement contractors, appraisers, and combinations thereof. Unscrupulous actors in these markets often prey on certain groups – the elderly, minorities, and individuals with lower incomes and less education – with deceptive or high-pressure sales tactics.
Shame on HUD and ACORN for bringing a little light to the issue of predatory lending.
And what I do now for a living is none of your business...since I think its now fair to assume you will use it against me, regardless of what I say.
And what I do now for a living is none of your business...since I think its now fair to assume you will use it against me, regardless of what I say.
Nope - just looking for a little perspective. I'm beginning to wonder if you are one of
them. :tinfoil:
I'm beginning to wonder if you are one of them. :tinfoil:
A very mature response.
Nope...I can say with 100% confidence that I am not lower than a child rapist.....how about you?
Cute - a very political response. FTR - I was referring to whether you were still a lobbyist or otherwise associated with ACORN.
It's not about length of membership. Well...maybe a little, but only inasmuch as, with someone who has been here longer we're more likely to have formed a 'reliable' opinion on their character. Having spent a few years getting to know Lookout, I feel fairly confident in suggesting that one of his character traits is scrupulous honesty.
I'm not suggesting lookout isn't honest. I'm just suggesting that some of you are being a bit unreasonable in expecting someone with no experience of him to just 'take his word for it'.
Sure lo can express his opinion, and if that's what it is, then there's no need to say any more, but just like everyone else, if he's asked for some kind of cite and refuses, then his statement can only be considered an opinion.
Does that make sense?
Classic, I'm really surprised at your responses. I would have thought you of all people would be a bit more reasonable.
Perhaps a little more perspective is in order.
Lookout is outraged by lobbyists:
[INDENT]
"Lobbyists rank just below child rapists in my book....Individuals who choose to make their living attempting to buy politicians in a legal manner are human fucksticks who I rate just below child rapists on the scale of asshattery."[/INDENT]
I agree with him about the influence of big money lobbyists (though not to point of characterizing them as lower than child rapists) and the need for lobbying reform.
Consider the expenditures on lobbying by the industry groups in question:
Mortgage bankers and brokers - $30 million in lobbying expenditures '08
Securities & Investment - $92 million in lobbying expenditures in '08
ACORN's lobbying expenditures are too low to show in these Open Secret reports based on lobbying disclosure requirements which must be reported to the US House and Senate
The top ranked industry sector for lobbying expenditures over the last 10 years:
Finance, Insurance and Real Estate - over $3.4 billion
So who should lookout really be bitching about? His own industry or ACORN?
Classic is concerned about ACORN'S impact on elections:
[INDENT]
"what politician is going to challenge an organization like ACORN during an election year? They have to be nuts too."
[/INDENT]
Consider campaign contributions to candidates:
Finance, Insurance & Real Estate (including commercial banks, finance/credit companies, securites and investment companies) which contributed $62 million to federal candidates in '08 as reported to the Federal Election Commission.
ACORN doesnt have a PAC or contribute to candidates.
Who do you think might have greater influence on the candidates and members of Congress once they are elected?
And as
I noted and
Classic acknowledged...I said I was a former lobbyist and never spent a dime on an elected official, nor did the organization I worked for have a PAC...and I have never had any affiliation with ACORN.
Oh I totally disagree with Lookout's assessment of lobbysists. They're just doing their job: some good, some bad, some useful, some damaging.
However, I believe his description of the events he himself witnessed. He was asked to cite, but what exactly is he supposed to cite? He was describing his personal experience of ACORN's methods. I believe that. Whether that can then be extrapolated out to a more general sense of ACORN is debatable.
For the most part in this thread, I agree with Redux. But, whilst I don't agree with Lookout, I absolutely believe his description of events he himself was a part of, or at least his perspective on them. Because he was describing such events, calls to cite aren't questioning his sources, they're questioning his personal honesty and integrity.
If I say I read somewhere that a group have acted in a particular way, then calls for citation are merely that. If I say I witnessed something myself, then calls for citation are an attack on my honesty.
However, I believe his description of the events he himself witnessed. He was asked to cite, but what exactly is he supposed to cite? He was describing his personal experience of ACORN's methods. I believe that. Whether that can then be extrapolated out to a more general sense of ACORN is debatable.
...I absolutely believe his description of events he himself was a part of, or at least his perspective on them. Because he was describing such events, calls to cite aren't questioning his sources, they're questioning his personal honesty and integrity.
If I say I read somewhere that a group have acted in a particular way, then calls for citation are merely that. If I say I witnessed something myself, then calls for citation are an attack on my honesty.
What one sees, and more importantly, how one presents that to others, may often be influenced by one's pre-conceived biases.....its only human. I readily admit to such biases.
One's
perspective is often colored by one's biases.
....even I couldn't specifically prove that the events I witnessed were part of a formal ACORN business plan. That would be illegal. They are very good at keeping themselves out of trouble by using the rogue rep ploy.
You see honesty in his
perspective of ACORN's
"they are very good....rogue rep ploy" where I see an opinion (of someone who apparently doesnt like ACORN) that may reflect his bias. I dont doubt that he believes it to be honest.
We have an honest difference of opinion,
not of what he saw, but how he characterized what he didnt see (
they are very good at keeping themselves out of trouble by using the rogue rep ploy).
FWIW, Acorn is being investigated by the FBI.
I'm sure this will just disappear.
FWIW, Acorn is being investigated by the FBI.
I'm sure this will just disappear.
Yep..I believe it did disappear, but I dont know that for a fact.
The last I read was that after a preliminary review of allegations made by a few republican partisans during the campaign, the FBI did not proceed with any investigations of ACORN...or at least ACORN has not been informed of the fact they are under investigation and asked to provide access to their records, which would have been standard procedure for such an investigation.
Might the charges have been politically motivated? I'm not accusing, just suggesting the possibility.
Unless you have more recent information you can cite which might be difficult since its all based on one AP story attributed to "leaks" from within the FBI.
In any case, to reiterate, I'm not "one of them" as you had suggested earlier...
...but
I do believe in innocent until proven guilty. How about you?...but I do believe in innocent until proven guilty. How about you?
Oh no, we really like the whole idea of lynch mobs here at teh cellar! ;)
I'm not "one of them" as you had suggested earlier... but I do believe in innocent until proven guilty. How about you?
Thanks for clearing that up. Innocent until proven guilty? Hmm, that depends on how you want to squirm out of it.
ACORN has a long history of scandal. In the state of Missouri in 1986, 12 ACORN members were convicted of voter fraud.
In December 2004, in St. Louis, six volunteers pleaded guilty to dozens of election law violations for filling out registration cards with names of dead people and other bogus information. The volunteers worked for “Operation Big Vote” — a branch of ACORN — in St. Louis.
On February 10, 2005, Nonaresa Montgomery, a paid worker who ran Operation Big Vote during the run-up to the 2001 mayoral primary, was found guilty of vote fraud. Montgomery hired about 30 workers wrote out names and information from an outdated voter list. About 1,500 fraudulent voter registration cards were turned in.
In October 2006, St. Louis election officials discovered at least 1,492 “potentially fraudulent” voter registration cards. They were all turned in by ACORN volunteers.
In November 2006, 20,000 to 35,000 questionable voter registration forms were turned in by ACORN officials in Missouri. The workers admitted on camera that they were coached to tell registrants to vote for Democrat Claire McCaskill.
In 2007, in Kansas City, Missouri, four ACORN employees were indicted for fraud.
In April 2008 eight ACORN employees in St. Louis city and county pleaded guilty to federal election fraud for submitting bogus voter registrations.
Oh, and that was just Missouri.
Were all the individuals found guilty in all the cases - no.
From what I understand many times the individuals involved are charged, not ACORN or one of its subsidiaries or affiliates. By design, this allows them to maintain their innocence. Technically they are innocent by the letter of the law. They also maintain plausible deniability. These 'volunteers' get a wristslap if that, and being that they were probably students or have extremely liberal tendencies, the idea of provoking, or challenging the status-quo makes whatever penalties virtually irrelevant. In fact they may actually wear it as a badge of honor.
Is ACORN guilty? Perhaps, maybe its just a few hundred bad apples who went off on their own. Maybe they were just all overexuberant volunteers. Maybe not.
This is like the mafia, only much worse.
Thanks for clearing that up. Innocent until proven guilty? Hmm, that depends on how you want to squirm out of it.
Were all the individuals found guilty in all the cases - no.
From what I understand many times the individuals involved are charged, not ACORN or one of its subsidiaries or affiliates. By design, this allows them to maintain their innocence. Technically they are innocent by the letter of the law. They also maintain plausible deniability. These 'volunteers' get a wristslap if that, and being that they were probably students or have extremely liberal tendencies, the idea of provoking, or challenging the status-quo makes whatever penalties virtually irrelevant. In fact they may actually wear it as a badge of honor.
Is ACORN guilty? Perhaps, maybe its just a few hundred bad apples who went off on their own. Maybe they were just all overexuberant volunteers. Maybe not.
This is like the mafia, only much worse.
LMAO.....a presumption of innocence is now "squirming out" of something.
ACORN and any organization is
required by law to turn all all voter registrations any staff person collects....and indicate the ones that they believe may be questionable. Which, in every case, is what ACORN did and generally fired the questionable staff.
But. of course, you dont mention that.
The fact remains that ACORN has never been charged with criminal activity...either in voter registration or housing finance advocacy.
Perhaps its probably time for you to move on to the next boogeyman......the SOCIALISTS!!!!! :eek:
Those socialists now in control will make the mafia and ACORN look like choir boys.
Hey...socialists are largely misunderstood!
Don't be mean to the socialists. ;)
Hey...socialists are largely misunderstood!
Don't be mean to the socialists. ;)
But they want to redistribute our wealth and control every aspect of our lives...Obama said it during the campaign! (insert youtube vid here as "proof")
Ask Joe the Plumber...or Classic the Mafia Hunter!
It must be true! Watch them "squirm" as they try to explain the facts!
They are "guilty" as charged by those patriotic Americans who dont like any organization that might support those among us who are the most disenfranchised.
and what's wrong with redistributing the wealth I ask you??? :D
Its unamerikan to tax the rich or provide a social safety net or affordable health care to all.
:headshake you're just a soc symp!
Yeah...a pinko commie. that's me. ;)
Thats how it works.
Smear, innuendo, half truths and misrepresentations, name calling....
Repeat and rinse until it gets to the roots and you "believe"
lol...well to be honest, I don't think classic or anyone else here thinks that about me, or you even. Most of it is pretty good natured mud slinging I think. Kind of like a food fight. You know it's not right, but it can be pretty funny at times. ;)
lol...well to be honest, I don't think classic or anyone else here thinks that about me, or you even. Most of it is pretty good natured mud slinging I think. Kind of like a food fight. You know it's not right, but it can be pretty funny at times. ;)
Yep..I agree.
I dont even mind the attempting bullying and belittling.
Its just sooooo repetitive, it gets boring after awhile.
But it is still good for a laugh and I dont expect to change any minds here.
Well, some of us are amenable to a different viewpoint. I know mine has changed about some things since I first started posting here.
Its unamerikan to tax the rich or provide a social safety net or affordable health care to all.
:headshake you're just a soc symp!
Actually, that depends on how you interpret the whole purpose of government, states' rights vs. limitations of federal government control, the success/failure of programs and initiatives brought about by the "War on Poverty" and progressive liberalism, and what the government's role should be in our daily lives: the small, quiet guardian that steps up to protect rights and civil liberties when needed, or the large, heavily involved and controlling patriarch if you will, that maneuvers us and our wealth around in what it thinks is best for the people.
Well, some of us are amenable to a different viewpoint. I know mine has changed about some things since I first started posting here.
Hmmmm....I wonder if we can get ACORN to register you to vote next time. ;)
Actually, that depends on how you interpret the whole purpose of government, states' rights vs. limitations of federal government control, the success/failure of programs and initiatives brought about by the "War on Poverty" and progressive liberalism, and what the government's role should be in our daily lives: the small, quiet guardian that steps up to protect rights and civil liberties when needed, or the large, heavily involved and controlling patriarch if you will, that maneuvers us and our wealth around in what it thinks is best for the people.
I understand and accept the differences of opinion on the role of government.
What I find objectionable is the gross mischaracterizations by either side.
[INDENT]a system of government regulation as opposed to a completely "free market" is not socialism
a progressive tax system is not socialism
affordable and accessible health care for all is not socialism
protecting or representing the rights of the most disenfranchised citizens is not socialism (or mafia-like)
[/INDENT]
lol...that's doubtful...for a number of reasons.
I understand and accept the differences of opinion on the role of government.
What I find objectionable is the gross mischaracterizations by either side.
[INDENT]a system of government regulation as opposed to a completely "free market" is not socialism
a progressive tax system is not socialism
affordable and accessible health care for all is not socialism
[/INDENT]
This. Personally though, I don't think applying labels like that to a particular program and then filling in the gaps with assumed ZOMG BAD THINGS is ever appropriate. I don't care what label something is given, if it's an efficient government program that will do legitimate good and there's no alternative, then I'm all for it. But otherwise, I think people should be left to their own devices, and that some things such as a house or affordable health care are not "rights" at all but privileges of hard work and living in a wealthy nation. I don't want my tax dollars going to a program that can be done better by an NGO, or efforts to support legislating morality. Maybe I'm just jaded from living in a swing state and suffering through all the bullshit (gross misrepresentation) that surrounded this past election from both sides. Very few of them are real winners in my book. I need a drink.
This. Personally though, I don't think applying labels like that to a particular program and then filling in the gaps with assumed ZOMG BAD THINGS is ever appropriate. I don't care what label something is given, if it's an efficient government program that will do legitimate good and there's no alternative, then I'm all for it. But otherwise, I think people should be left to their own devices, and that some things such as a house or affordable health care are not "rights" at all but privileges of hard work and living in a wealthy nation. I don't want my tax dollars going to a program that can be done better by an NGO, or efforts to support legislating morality. Maybe I'm just jaded from living in a swing state and suffering through all the bullshit (gross misrepresentation) that surrounded this past election from both sides. Very few of them are real winners in my book. I need a drink.
I have no argument with the above, even if I dont agree with it. It is certainly worth discussion in a reasonable and rational manner in another thread.
My point....google "obama socialsm" or "acorn voter fraud" while you have that drink and find anything resembling facts....rather than smears, innuendo, half truths and misrepresentations, name calling....
Unfortunately, it is the nature of political discourse these days.
ACORN has a long history of scandal
. In the state of Missouri
in 1986, 12 ACORN members were convicted of voter fraud.
In December 2004, in St. Louis,
six volunteers pleaded guilty to dozens of election law violations
for filling out registration cards with names of dead people and other bogus information.
The volunteers worked for “Operation Big Vote” — a branch of ACORN
On February 10, 2005,
Nonaresa Montgomery, a paid worker who ran Operation Big Vote
during the run-up to the 2001 mayoral primary,
was found guilty of vote fraud.
In April 2008
eight ACORN employees in St. Louis city and county
pleaded guilty to federal election fraud
for submitting bogus voter registrations.
All members of acorn - all guilty. You asked me to put up and I did. These are facts - irrefutable facts.
Hmmmm....I wonder if we can get ACORN to register you to vote next time. ;)
They probably already did!:rolleyes:
ACORN has a long history of scandal
. In the state of Missouri
in 1986, 12 ACORN members were convicted of voter fraud.
In December 2004, in St. Louis,
six volunteers pleaded guilty to dozens of election law violations
for filling out registration cards with names of dead people and other bogus information.
The volunteers worked for “Operation Big Vote” — a branch of ACORN
On February 10, 2005,
Nonaresa Montgomery, a paid worker who ran Operation Big Vote
during the run-up to the 2001 mayoral primary,
was found guilty of vote fraud.
In April 2008
eight ACORN employees in St. Louis city and county
pleaded guilty to federal election fraud
for submitting bogus voter registrations.
All members of acorn - all guilty. You asked me to put up and I did. These are facts - irrefutable facts.
The fact is that ACORN
submitted all registrations as required by law, reported those that they thought were questionable, fully cooperated with authorities, which led to the convictions.
In fact, ACORN had collected over 1 million voter registrations nationwide in 08 and less than 1/10th of 1 percent were questionable and reported as such by ACORN to the appropriate state authorities.
ACORN has never been charged with voter registration fraud.....that is a fact.
You can transfer the guilt of volunteers to the organization or characterize it as you wish.
No court has ever made that leap of guilt association.
But in your
unsubstantiated and undocumented opinion, its all a cover-up of deceptive practices and a ploy that makes them worse then the murdering, drug running, prostitute pimping, illegal gambling operations Mafia?
But in your opinion its all a cover-up of deceptive practices and a ploy that makes them worse then the murdering, drug running, prostitute pimping, illegal gambling operations Mafia?
Not worse - pretty much on par though.
Substantiation:
In November 2006, 20,000 to 35,000 questionable voter registration forms were turned in by ACORN officials in Missouri. The workers admitted on camera that they were coached to tell registrants to vote for Democrat Claire McCaskill.
Whatever redux - this is EXACTLY what I was talking about - many of acorns members have been found GUILTY. I already said that acorn has plausible deniability. The fact that the employees or volunteers of acorn are the ones getting charged instead of acorn itself means nothing. Keep on squirming if you must.
We'll have to agree to disagree - at best.
Not worse - pretty much on par though.
Substantiation:
Whatever redux - this is EXACTLY what I was talking about - many of acorns members have been found GUILTY. I already said that acorn has plausible deniability. The fact that the employees or volunteers of acorn are the ones getting charged instead of acorn itself means nothing. Keep on squirming if you must.
We'll have to agree to disagree - at best.
A handful of volunteers n a few cities among the tens of thousands across the country is now "many".
And transferring the guilt to the organization w/o any evidence is acceptable to you despite no court anywhere in the country every making that finding. I understand that.
Yep...we'll just have to agree to disagree.
An honest disagreement and the "keep on squirming" nonsense adds nothing to the discussion and makes you look petty.
And transferring the guilt to the organization w/o any evidence ...
The workers admitted on camera that they were coached to tell registrants to vote for Democrat Claire McCaskill.
You're unabashed defense of acorn makes you look even more partisan than before - go figure.
BTW - The squirming was referenced to acorn originally not you.
You're unabashed defense of them makes you look even more partisan than before - go figure.
I accept that I am probably still "one of them" in your opinion..whoever "them" are.
Thats cool. :D
That's it mister! You're on report.
My first cellar report card! :eek:
Oh fine. Go ahead and laugh it up while you can. Think its funny? Just you wait till Jim hears about it.
.. Just you wait till Jim hears about it.
[INDENT][youtube]We76yxi4Chs[/youtube][/INDENT]
I can't believe you are still defending these scumbags from ACORN.
An ACORN Request
Call on Congress to Investigate Arizona Civil Rights Abuses
In Maricopa County, Arizona, Sheriff Joe Arpaio has been terrorizing communities for years, engaging in police brutality, forced family separation, racial profiling, slow emergency response times, unjustified arrests, inmate abuses and more. His latest action, forcing more than 200 undocumented immigrants to march through the streets in chains to a tent city surrounded by an electric fence, disregards human rights.
We can’t stand by and let Arpaio’s reign of terror continue. That’s why we are asking House Judiciary Committee Chair John Conyers to investigate Sheriff Arpaio, both in his home state of Arizona and in Washington, D.C.
I just signed a petition on the ACORN website to ask Rep. Conyers to investigate Arpaio. Please sign on to show your solidarity against terror, abuse and racism and to bring this Sheriff to justice!
I can't believe you are still defending these scumbags from ACORN.
Well, thats life. The facts havnt changed.
if I was not convinced by comparisons to child rapists and mafia murderers/drug kingpins, why would I find the additional characterization of "scumbags' a more compelling reason to change my mind?
We still agree to disagree.
What I have come to conclude is that trolling, emotionally charged name calling and personal attacks are a common defense mechanism here.
What I have come to conclude is that trolling, emotionally charged name calling and personal attacks are a common defense mechanism here.
Then stop doing it and earn some respect.
What I have come to conclude is that trolling, emotionally charged name calling and personal attacks are a common defense mechanism on the internet.
Fixed that for you.
Welcome to the party.
Merc and Bullitt...you guys crack me up.
Merc..who repeatedly disrespects posters with some odd reference to phantom creatures of "1s and 0s" (I never saw that characterization of posters in any other political forum..I have to say it is very creative way to "justify" ignoring facts) if that phantom cites facts that contradict his posted opinion writers.
Bullitt...."Fixing" another posters quotes? Another first for me. I have never seen such practices in other political forums and I've participate in a few across the spectrum.
But I like a good party. :)
Bullitt...."Fixing" another posters quotes? Another first for me. I have never seen such practices in other political forums and I've participate in a few across the spectrum.
'Fixing' is quite common here. I use it myself to make a point or a joke from time to time. I've seen it used in other forums too.
Merc..who repeatedly disrespects posters with some odd reference to phantom creatures of "1s and 0s" (I never saw that characterization of posters in any other political forum..I have to say it is very creative way to "justify" ignoring facts) if that phantom cites facts that contradict his posted opinion writers.
You crack me up with your failed arguements. Dead pan right from Huffington Post.
It really is not meant to be disrespect. More of a factual observation. You are nothing more than a series of 1's and 0's to me. You lack credibility in my opinion. I am sure that You don't give me any more than I give you. So we are even. ;)
You crack me up with your failed arguements. Dead pan right from Huffington Post.
...
I've never written for the Huffington Post.
I do contribute to another non-partisan political report on occasion, but only to present the facts on subjects with which I have some degree of familiarity.
And no complaints yet about failed arguments....from either the editors or objective readers. :)
Bullitt...."Fixing" another posters quotes? Another first for me. I have never seen such practices in other political forums and I've participate in a few across the spectrum.
Yes it's done here often, not just in the political threads.
But, my personal opinion is the changes should be highlighted, colored or distinguished in some way. The poster quoted will spot the change but other readers won't automatically know. Even if they say, "I fixed that for you".
I've never written for the Huffington Post.
I do contribute to another non-partisan political report on occasion,
FWIW - Huffpo is far from non-partisan
and just for the record Redux, you asked about Acorn being charged - as discussed the organization never is - just the zealots who work there.
Another ACORN Ex-Worker Charged with Vote Fraud
January 5th, 2009 by Matthew Vadum
Add another one to the ACORN elections crime file.
Deidra Humphrey of St. Louis was indicted by a federal grand jury for filing forged and false voter registration documents while she worked for ACORN, the St. Louis Post-Dispatch reports.
Another former ACORN worker in the Philadelphia area, Jemar Barksdale, was convicted of a similar crime.
and just for the record Redux, you asked about Acorn being charged - as discussed the organization never is - just the zealots who work there.
Cool...and you'll keep on ignoring the fact the ACORN regularly reported questionable practices to state authoritie, fired workers engaged in those practices, and cooperated with investigations.
We have a difference of opinion.
You evidently believe in guilt by association and some mafia-like structure where the organization sets up a criminal enterprise with the intent of having the lowest individuals take the fall for the organization with NO-ZERO-NADA-NILL proof of any centralized or coordinated effort to violate the law on the part of the organization...and I believe the organization is innovent until proven guilty.
You would think more than a handful of the 13,000+ ACORN volunteers nationwide (in the last election) would be taking falls and being charged and convicted of crimes if it was the intent of the organization to commit widespread voter registration fraud in that manner.
Wake me when you have something new to share.
We have a difference of opinion.
Wake me
I'm tryin. Just posting the
facts as they are reported. What you choose to believe or do with the information is up to you. Its still a free country ... for now.:eyebrow:
Do you have any
facts on ACORN's involvement in those trials? Were the people
reported to the authorities by ACORN?
ACORN's Midwest director, Jeff Ordower, has said Humphrey worked for ACORN for 12 days in late June and early July, before leaving voluntarily to work for Missouri Pro-Vote. Ordower said ACORN, in its own investigation, determined that Humphrey violated the group's procedures. ACORN reported its findings to the St. Louis County Board of Elections in September.
just the facts I've already reported, but I'll certainly post any additional ones I come across.
Damm we have a bunch of ACORN apologists on here. Where is my picture of the bird with his head in the sand?