why do men kill their families?
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/01/27/family.dead/index.html
This is not the first such story to come out of our current economic crisis. Explain to me, if you can--why? Isn't it better to be poor than dead?
Do these guys honestly believe they are preventing their families from suffering? Or is it more of a . . . if I can't be happy and prosperous, nobody will! kind of thing.
:headshake
Ask Wolf.
Why do women drown their children?
Because they like to pick on people smaller than they are because some guys can be cowards. Some men like to hurt the people closest to them if there isn't too much of a fight. The guy was a coward, that thought that would be the path of least resistance, because he was insane.
It's like the most recent event at Virginia Tech. He decapitated his little Chinese girlfriend with a knife in public and blamed it on the stock market. Nutter.
How about if it is just because he was insane without all the other mumbo-jumbo-armchair-psychology about men in general?
How about if it is just because he was insane without all the other mumbo-jumbo-armchair-psychology about men in general?
What a novel concept
Did I say Nutter yet?
Nutter.
Yah I am sure the jargon is way over your head. ;)
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/01/27/family.dead/index.html
Do these guys honestly believe they are preventing their families from suffering? Or is it more of a . . . if I can't be happy and prosperous, nobody will! kind of thing.
:headshake
For some it's a suicide by proxy situation - killing their family is killing a part of themself. They believe they are sparing their families the suffering and humiliation that might come from a lost job or wiped out savings. Obviously it's a pride thing, and they are really just sparing themselves the humiliation of letting their families down - especially when they don't follow thru and off themselves as well.
I realize it's an insane thing to do. I just . . . it's so unbelievable to me, I am left to wonder what possible motivation there could be.
Pride, yeah, but . . .
nutter.
I guess I often wonder what brings people to commit heinous acts. Some things are so foreign to me I have no reference to image such a thing, and wanted to know what you guys think.
Isn't it better to be poor than dead?
It depends on whether your entire existence and sense of self-worth is tied up with not being poor.
The moral of the story is: try not to marry someone that shallow.
yeah, geesh.
Did anyone see that recent episode of Criminal Minds where they were trying to catch a random freeway shooter before he killed his family? With the twist at the end? Creepy!
The moral of the story is: try not to marry someone that shallow.
:lol2:
The answer on this one, I think, has much to do with this guy being very screwed up even before he sat down and thought, "You know, I think the best thing to do here is alert the media that I'm killing my whole family and then myself." The real shame of it is that he got the order wrong.
He doesn't seem to be a sad guy who got downsized ... the article says he was fired for cause, so was his wife.
What cause? who knows at this point, probably more will come out about this. You'll have to sort through a bunch of really sad folks who are making themselves feel better by saying things like, "He was always so quiet." "Such a devoted father." "Never had a bad word to say about anyone." etc. etc. etc.
I would suspect drugs or alcohol being involved, and perhaps a long history of some kind of crazy. This stuff never really comes out of the blue. An ocean of shit has likely hit a mountain range's worth of fans over a long period of time, but it's a lot easier to abdicate responsibility than to address this kind of thing.
Right, because if a coworker or neighbor says, "Yeah, everyone could tell that dude was pretty screwed up," then it's like admitting they could have done something to stop him.
The answer on this one, I think, has much to do with this guy being very screwed up even before he sat down and thought, "You know, I think the best thing to do here is alert the media that I'm killing my whole family and then myself." The real shame of it is that he got the order wrong.
He's probably had a history. Do you think? :D
They were working for Kaiser. My brother worked there and told me they are a totally fucked up company to work for and they will fire you for nothing. I know there IT department treats techs like they are a dime a dozen and burns them out. I had a couple of colleagues who had formerly worked there.
One of our kids' lunchroom supervisors was (allegedly) murdered by her boyfriend yesterday (sometime after lunch but before she was due to pick up her daughter from k-care....).
http://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/index.ssf/2009/01/suspect_sought_in_death_of_ann.htmlA fellow contractor finally admitted to me, the burn out with the last company I was with. It was always there, but it had to be over before anyone could say it. Everyone was thinking it......It wasn't just me, everyone was internally shaking their heads, doing a face palm.
I don't think you can ever really foresee those kinds of things. Sure, the signs are there, but those signs exist in many characters we come into contact with; most don't kill their families.
An ex cow orker's wife's ex-fiancee came into her place of employment and shot himself right in front of her. She's a great person, and I think that must haunt her. Sure, she saw signs of instability that made her try to run the other way. He wanted to make sure she felt she had destroyed someone.
Just. Don't. Get. It.
The answer on this one, I think, has much to do with this guy being very screwed up even before he sat down and thought, "You know, I think the best thing to do here is ...
The way I read this is that contributing factors include:
"he was fired for cause, so was his wife"
"suspect drugs or alcohol being involved"
"a long history of some kind of crazy" (ie no treatment for depression)
But the primary reasoning behind his decision might be:
"best thing to do here is alert the media" (ie get attention)
"abdicate responsibility than to address this kind of thing"
Is that a reasonable interpretation? Are there any other typical items to add to that list of possible reasons for his action?
The answer on this one, I think, has much to do with this guy being very screwed up even before he sat down and thought, "You know, I think the best thing to do here is alert the media that I'm killing my whole family and then myself." The real shame of it is that he got the order wrong.
He doesn't seem to be a sad guy who got downsized ... the article says he was fired for cause, so was his wife.
What cause? who knows at this point, probably more will come out about this. You'll have to sort through a bunch of really sad folks who are making themselves feel better by saying things like, "He was always so quiet." "Such a devoted father." "Never had a bad word to say about anyone." etc. etc. etc.
I would suspect drugs or alcohol being involved, and perhaps a long history of some kind of crazy. This stuff never really comes out of the blue. An ocean of shit has likely hit a mountain range's worth of fans over a long period of time, but it's a lot easier to abdicate responsibility than to address this kind of thing.
What? so it was not just because he had a penis? No way...
why do "people" kill their families, Merc.
My question wasn't intended as a generalized man-slur, but a response to two or three highly publicized, recent occurrences of this type in which the husband/father committed the crime.
why do "people" kill their families, Merc.
My question wasn't intended as a generalized man-slur, but a response to two or three highly publicized, recent occurrences of this type in which the husband/father committed the crime.
I have no idea, but I am pretty sure that I can show you that a penis had very little to do with it.
Whatever is wrong with the world usually involves a penis....:p
*[COLOR="White"]or not[/COLOR]
HIV is spread by the penis, people have nothing to do with it.. Really.
OK...who peed in your wheeties today merc? ;)
Girl dies after being thrown from bridge
A four-year-old girl has died after being thrown from the Westgate Bridge in Melbourne and her father has been charged with one count of murder.
Damm Penis Kills Again!!!!
It's what got him in trouble in the first place, innit?
If the mum's called Trouble, the girl had no chance in life.
Oh my god.
Apparently dead is the new alive. :headshake
There's probably all sorts of complex psychological reasons for someone to kill their family. If I recall correctly from the last time this topic came up men are far more likely to kill their whole family than women. As I also recall, where women kill their children there is usually mental illness involved (such as post natal depression of a severe kind) whereas men who kill their families are more likely to be acting on different impulses, not governed by insanity.
Why would those men kill their families? Like I said, there are probably all kinds of psychological factors, but mainly I think its because we are at our core, just another animal. Look at the animal kingdom and you will find plenty of murderous mums and dads.
If I recall correctly from the last time this topic came up men are far more likely to kill their whole family than women.
Perhaps that is because women are typically smaller than their male counterparts and don't usually kill by the same means. Women tend to use drowning or drugs to murder their children. Men on the other hand are far more likely to murder with a weapon like a knife or gun.
As I also recall, where women kill their children there is usually mental illness involved (such as post natal depression of a severe kind) whereas men who kill their families are more likely to be acting on different impulses, not governed by insanity.
FAIL! Sorry, first off, no one murders their children without severe mental illness involved. Secondly, perhaps women are more open in sharing emotional things beforehand and thats why their diagnoses are more readily defined, categorized than mens.
FAIL! Sorry, first off, no one murders their children without severe mental illness involved.
Tain't necessarily so.
Or, perhaps the answer is "depends on how you define mental illness."
Being a self-centered bitch is not a mental illness.
(Susan Smith, Casey Anthony)
thanks wolf - I'll take the "definition" option.
IMO - if you kill your own kids you're nuts - period. Then again perhaps there is a Darwinian justice here somewhere.
Yah I am not sure how men could act on "different impulses" and kill their family. Is really killing your family merely just an impulse? Or an insane impulse that was carried out?
I was referring to the stuff we looked at on the bad santa thread. There were various sources shown which suggested that there was a difference in terms of mental health.
Naturally it depends on your definition of what is or is not mentally healthy.
Even crazy people engage in criminal acts for criminal, rather than crazy, reasons.
So, you admit. It's crazy...:)
To me, if I pondered killing my entire family, I would deem myself crazy. I would send myself away to a hospital.
That is not included in my personal view of good mental health.
Tain't necessarily so.
Or, perhaps the answer is "depends on how you define mental illness."
Being a self-centered bitch is not a mental illness.
(Susan Smith, Casey Anthony)
Diane Downs...
People who are truly crazy aren't responsible for their actions, don't understand right/wrong. Personally, I don't want to see "crazy" people getting away with murder just because they fit C'mans definition of nuts.
Ranting that someone who has murdered their kids is crazy reminds me of Chris Rock ranting about niggers... "I
take care of my kids..."
I don't think I want to see them get away with it either. Not only do you have to be crazy, you have to be an asshole. Yes, that is my professional opinion. lol!
I mean- didn't you guys see, "the shining?" ;) What an asshole.
People who are truly crazy aren't responsible for their actions, don't understand right/wrong. Personally, I don't want to see "crazy" people getting away with murder just because they fit C'mans definition of nuts.
At what point did I say that I thought they should get away with it due to their insanity? I don't feel that is a valid excuse at all, quite the opposite in fact - especially for murdering someone.
I don't think I want to see them get away with it either. Not only do you have to be crazy, you have to be an asshole. Yes, that is my professional opinion. lol!
I mean- didn't you guys see, "the shining?" ;) What an asshole.
lol...yeah. What a jerk!
Being a self-centered bitch is not a mental illness.
HA! :D I beg to differ. [/sarc] :D
People who are truly crazy aren't responsible for their actions,
I don't buy that for one minute. They are completely responsible. They just have to pay for their errors differently.
At what point did I say that I thought they should get away with it due to their insanity? I don't feel that is a valid excuse at all, quite the opposite in fact - especially for murdering someone.
Wolf pointed out that you don't have to be insane to kill your family and you disagreed.
Pointing out that someone who kills their children/family is fucked in the head is stating the obvious. Calling them insane suggests that they are not legally responsible for their actions, not competent to stand trail etc.. Refusing to accept that truly insane people exist and sometimes commit criminal acts without intending to is like saying that people with depression just need to cheer up.
Refusing to accept that truly insane people exist and sometimes commit criminal acts without intending to is like saying that people with depression just need to cheer up.
Perhaps that is your analogy perhaps, not mine.
Anyone who kills their own family has to have something wrong in the top paddock. Whether it's that they're 'clinically insane' or have some other kind of permanent or temporary mental issue doesn't make much difference.
When they're charged with the crime, it's up to the prosecution to prove them guilty of it. It's up to the defense to explain what sort of 'insanity' overtook them at the time of the crime.
After that it's up to the jury.
HA! :D I beg to differ. [/sarc] :D
Beg away. I get off on that.
One of my first, very memorable, patients was a guy who had killed his family. Young adult, early 20s, first schizophrenic break.
This dude was crazy, crazy. Seriously so. He had been telling his family for weeks that he knew they had been replaced by demons. IIRC, he let them know what he intended to do about this.
The family had the opportunity to get him committed. They did not do so.
He murdered both of his parents and seriously injured his brother. The brother somehow managed to make it out of the house and get to a neighbor's who called the police.
The police or the prison ultimately did the commitment papers.
He did not know what he was doing.
That's the kind of case that Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity is made for. He is still hospitalized (not at my hospital. We don't do long term like that). He is still psychotic, even with medications. He will likely never be released from the hospital.
I know another guy, about the same age, maybe younger. His mom was a really nice lady. Had to come in every couple of months and get him committed because he'd be threatening her. So ... one day, when he wasn't psychotic, they had some kind of an argument. I think it may have been over a videogame of some kind.
He killed her, stabbing her 17 or more times, concealed the body, and was only found out because about a week later he was seen by a relative driving her car around town, and the relative knew he wasn't allowed to drive the car. He knew what he was doing, and tried to cover up his crime. Insanity defense wasn't even considered.
Natural progression...next stop, stabbing:
He is an adult - move his shit out on the lawn.
Perhaps that is because women are typically smaller than their male counterparts and don't usually kill by the same means. Women tend to use drowning or drugs to murder their children. Men on the other hand are far more likely to murder with a weapon like a knife or gun.
[COLOR=Red]FAIL![/COLOR] Sorry, first off, no one murders their children without severe mental illness involved. Secondly, perhaps women are more open in sharing emotional things beforehand and thats why their diagnoses are more readily defined, categorized than mens.
[COLOR=Red]SHITTY[/COLOR]
I don't like that. I don't care what the rest of the post says.....that is rude.
but mainly I think its because we are at our core, just another animal.
No, no, no! Humans are *not* animals. Never were. That is a bullshit, cop out, Evolutionary response.
Nothing personal, Dana, it really isn't; believe what you want, but stuff like that hits my button every time.
(ETA)
If your theory of humans are just animals at their core, and you want to look to animal behavior for "proof", then it really doesn't matter why people do what they do. They do it because it's "natural to do it. Animals frequently kill their offspring, and no one calls them crazy, it's just what they do.
No, no, no! Humans are *not* animals. Never were. That is a bullshit, cop out, Evolutionary response.
Nothing personal, Dana, it really isn't; believe what you want, but stuff like that hits my button every time.
*smiles* I don't take it personally Onyx.
You are wrong...but then I would say that, wouldn't I?
I have to say I agree with Dana in that specific quote.
Humans are animals.
What separates them from the other species?
Delusions of grandeur.
You are wrong...but then I would say that, wouldn't I?
Yup, that's why I love you! You stick to what you believe in! :P
My last teenager ...
Kid hostile toward parents, busts up some stuff in the house.
Parents, in an unusual move take computer and television out of kid's room.
Kid comes home from school to discover this.
Kid threatens and hits parents.
Parents come to nuthouse.
Parents write papers.
wolf's boss signs papers (they came before I got there).
Hoopde with a bed in the back brings kid to nuthouse.
Shrink talks to kid.
Kid gets to stay in nuthouse.
the end.
isn't that a cute story?
This is not the first time I have seen this exact situation replayed.
:giggles: at OC, Dana & SG
And here I thought humans were animals all this time. The stuff you learn on the internet.
Humans are animals..
:giggles: at OC, Dana & SG
Laugh it up fuzzball...
See, Now that made me LOL OL!
(ETA)
If your theory of humans are just animals at their core, and you want to look to animal behavior for "proof", then it really doesn't matter why people do what they do. They do it because it's "natural to do it. Animals frequently kill their offspring, and no one calls them crazy, it's just what they do.
I'm very strongly with Dana on this. Whether we want to believe it or not, our personality and actions are largely dictated by conditioning. Some animals can be conditioned very efficiently and some can not. Dogs can be domesticated to the point where they are completely non-violent. We can do the same to humans. We can train a dog to be a blood thirsty killer. We can do the same to humans.
We are obviously much more complex then dogs and possess a decently rational thought process but it is impossible to ignore that people who are raised under completely different ideals are completely different people.
Humans aren't animals? That confused me.
I thought humans are mammals, as are cows and dogs, etc. Are they not animals either?
Animals as in not being able to control our instincts.
It's because of our thumbs, which give us the ability to rate movies like no other species.
*blinks*
Jesus. That one had passed me by.
Humans aren't animals?
We must be plants then, although I've known a few humans who'd pass for rocks and other geological structures.
We have animal DNA, as opposed to plant DNA.
How do I miss this shit? lol
I thiught I already said nutter and coward though. I am out! ;)
If men are pigs then we are animals
We have animal DNA, as opposed to plant DNA.
ok, so we
are animals then...because of our DNA if nothing else. That's what I thought.
I saw that movie when I was in grade 6. I had bad dreams for years afterwards.