Bush suddenly an interesting character again

Undertoad • Jan 12, 2009 10:36 am
The only benefit of being unemployed is that I get to be a news hound for a while again. The channels just had Bush's final press conference, and for 50 minutes the guy was more personable than he has been in about 5 years. His press conference performances have been wooden, a little nervous, not real strong on specifics, etc. a poor communicator. But here with all the politics out of the way, he was relaxed. And without it meaning much, the press was relaxed, it was more conversational. He could be candid about mistakes, including the "Mission Accomplished" banner, and some of his rhetoric.

Other things he would not take credit for, such as his reaction to Katrina, and the financial meltdown, which he described as disappointingly having happened on his watch.

Still, it was actually refreshing to see some of the guy's natural charm return, and he seemed bright and alert and a little funny, like he used to be. Totally gracious to Obama. You could see why his voters had a good gut-level feeling about him. The question then becomes why he lost that nature while in office. The sense I get, now, is that he was too overwhelmed to also be charming in any way.
classicman • Jan 12, 2009 11:55 am
Interesting take on it UT - I wonder what Obama will be like after a few years in the meat grinder.
I saw him again yesterday morning and he really is a captivating speaker.
TheMercenary • Jan 12, 2009 12:05 pm
classicman;521488 wrote:
Interesting take on it UT - I wonder what Obama will be like after a few years in the meat grinder.
I saw him again yesterday morning and he really is a captivating speaker.
That alone is better than 8 years of someone who could not talk well in front of groups. But he is going to have to do more than talk pretty.
classicman • Jan 12, 2009 12:50 pm
But, but, but..... butthead
Pie • Jan 12, 2009 12:52 pm
He looks like a man who has been let of the hook.

He can go back to Texas and start clearing' some brush. That's a problem that's more on his scale.
Happy Monkey • Jan 12, 2009 1:40 pm
He must have finished off all the brush in Crawford; he's moved on to Preston Hollow.
Flint • Jan 12, 2009 10:35 pm
Still, it was actually refreshing to see some of the guy's natural charm return, and he seemed bright and alert and a little funny, like he used to be. Totally gracious to Obama. You could see why his voters had a good gut-level feeling about him. The question then becomes why he lost that nature while in office. The sense I get, now, is that he was too overwhelmed to also be charming in any way.
Undertoad, I'm sure you can find a video somewhere on the internet of his 1994 debate against Ann Richards, then governor of Texas (who went to school on a debate scholarship) in which he is quite articulate and on-the-ball.

I've remarked before that either he has some kind of degenerative neurological disease, or that at some point, for political reasons, it was decided that he would be more successful if he pretended to be more like a regular guy--that is to say, dumber.

I heard him this morning on the radio, and he was, you know, likeable.

My dad always liked him, and thought he seemed like a good kind of guy.

I always thought he had a smug bastard face that needed to be punched in.



Regardless of how irrelevant... in politics, people have to "like" you.
Undertoad • Jan 13, 2009 1:14 am
Yah, I've seen pieces of that 1994 debate, and he did seem like a whole different person. I did think that he did lose his skills of the past. As I get older, though, I'm less likely to attribute that to some weird neurological problem as it is just aging. You lose some things, you gain others; you do change styles, because the cocky youngster faces so many humbling experiences.
DanaC • Jan 13, 2009 5:32 am
Personally, I think he owed his victory to too many strong people. I don't believe he was 'his own' president, so to speak. He was the selected front man for a wider project, and as such was delivering somebody else's agenda. Not unusual in a leading politician really. In these days of focus groups and detailed breakdowns of public reactions to speeches and debates, I suspect that the Bush we've been seeing for the past few years is a version that has been refined through such feedback. He scored well on folksey charm, and people felt better about him when he was just as bemused by the world as they were. After the slickness of the Clintons, it was a breath of fresh air for a lot of people to be led by somebody who seemed like he would enjoy a beer at their local bar.

Maybe they thought, because he seemed to be an ordinary guy, he'd share some of their more pressing ordinary concerns.

Either way, I think they (his advisors, speechwriters, pollsters etc) began to over emphasise that side of him. He was playing a role the last few years. The role was his most ordinary and least impressive self.
xoxoxoBruce • Jan 13, 2009 1:44 pm
Here's an interesting read, by a friend of Jenna's, about kicking back with the first family at the White House.
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2009/01/dubya-and-me200901
Perry Winkle • Jan 13, 2009 1:53 pm
I often wonder whether he really wanted to be President beyond the idea of the job.

It's like how all little boys want to be astronauts, firemen, or superheros. 99.99% of them wouldn't really want those jobs if they actually had them (which is why most of them don't do the work to get those jobs).
Pico and ME • Jan 13, 2009 2:43 pm
DanaC;521813 wrote:
Personally, I think he owed his victory to too many strong people. I don't believe he was 'his own' president, so to speak. He was the selected front man for a wider project, and as such was delivering somebody else's agenda. Not unusual in a leading politician really. .


BINGO!

Much the same way I think Obama has been selected.
xoxoxoBruce • Jan 13, 2009 2:45 pm
Who's he fronting for?
Pico and ME • Jan 13, 2009 2:50 pm
I have no idea, its just a feeling I have. At first I felt that he was selected to 1) Be a distraction and then 2) Be a Calming influence on the 'masses' after all the BS of the past and for the BS to come in the future...which some of we are experience now with the recession/depression.

I lost a lot of faith in our 'democratic' institution with the Bush administration, so my outlook is a bit tainted.
Pie • Jan 13, 2009 2:50 pm
As far as I can tell, the rest of the democratic party owes him bigtime. He's not in debt to many people, 'cept the grassroots. And all they want him to do is get us out of this godawful mess.
xoxoxoBruce • Jan 14, 2009 2:49 am
Pico and ME;521936 wrote:

I lost a lot of faith in our 'democratic' institution with the Bush administration, so my outlook is a bit tainted.
That's because you're young, they soured me a long time ago. :haha:
classicman • Jan 14, 2009 9:29 am
yep - I agree with xob - Carter did the same to me Pico.
TheMercenary • Jan 15, 2009 8:03 am
Clinton did it for me, followed by Bush.
Urbane Guerrilla • Jan 15, 2009 8:45 pm
Clinton, but Bush restored it. Devouring undemocracies is just the best thing in foreign policy ever.
DanaC • Jan 16, 2009 2:17 am
Yeah. Shame about that indigestion eh?
TheMercenary • Jan 16, 2009 1:11 pm
Urbane Guerrilla;522819 wrote:
Clinton, but Bush restored it. Devouring undemocracies is just the best thing in foreign policy ever.


We will need another 10 years to actually measure the impact. The immediate impact has been evident. I am not sad to see him go, but I am not completely happy Obama has taken his place. Congress is the real seat of power in this country and the current make-up is more worrisome than Obama.
xoxoxoBruce • Jan 17, 2009 5:47 am
I see Bush is dropping the down home cowboy facade and moving back to the idle rich social set.
richlevy • Jan 17, 2009 4:02 pm
xoxoxoBruce;523254 wrote:
I see Bush is dropping the down home cowboy facade and moving back to the idle rich social set.
Yeah, but now that stocks have tanked, even the rich are pissed at him. Heck, I'll bet the guys at the the yacht club are probably pumping their own marine diesel now.
TheMercenary • Jan 17, 2009 7:05 pm
Heh. They are pissed at Bush for tanking stocks? :lol:
Pie • Jan 17, 2009 10:07 pm
Nero fiddled while Rome burned...
TheMercenary • Jan 18, 2009 8:22 am
Bush diddled...
DanaC • Jan 18, 2009 10:12 am
And Clinton got jiggy
classicman • Jan 18, 2009 10:28 am
DanaC;523520 wrote:
And Clinton got jiggy

I thought he played the sax.
TheMercenary • Jan 18, 2009 5:26 pm
Reagan got shakey with it.
sugarpop • Jan 28, 2009 8:36 am
hmmm. Bush interesting. What a concept. I think he's just a spoiled egomaniac who gained way too much power, to the detriment of this country and the entire world. And while he may have expressed some disappointment about certain things in that interview, and admitted a few mistakes, he in no way took responsibility for the disaster that is the past 8 years. In fact, he has been out touring trying to rewrite history, or his-story. It is sickening. Too bad about all those damn videos ruining that part for him. :D
Urbane Guerrilla • Jan 29, 2009 7:23 pm
The people who cry "disaster disaster disaster" frankly don't impress me with their thinking. The "disaster" they seem to have in mind always seems to be better said as "a setback to the [il]liberal agenda." O'Reilly calls these people "Secular-Progressives," if you'd rather use that term, and reckons they don't got it. He makes a pretty solid case.

Item: refusal to pass gun control legislation -- good for the Republic, bad for increasing the chances of genocides, and for criminals generally. Gun rights are a most potent expression of human rights -- a right not to be murdered or robbed, a right not to suffer genocide. Fundamental, I should think.

Item: demolition of undemocratic regimes, plural -- better for good government worldwide; the greatest part of human miseries stem from bad governance, as looking for correlations of bad national quality of life with undemocratic governance will show.

On a related note, it's one option for making a better world that isn't taking in millions of illegal immigrants: make their home places better than they were, and where's the wrong in removing those human obstacles to that idea that invariably present themselves, with their guns, their goons, their clubs and gas? That we're about the best country around is evidenced by how many millions of people are literally breaking into the place to partake. About eleven million illegals these days.

Item: not being buffaloed by environmentalist lobbies promotes efficient business by ensuring the cost of doing business is not so excessive it is no longer worthwhile -- that way lies European stagnation. Business is something humans do, and GWB understood that in his bones.

Item: Federal-level government almost entirely engrossed in foreign policy reduced any temptation to meddle with domestic affairs, to the benefit of those affairs and of civil rights also, unlike his predecessor, who clearly viewed the Bill of Rights not as a guide to his behavior in office, but as a stumbling-block to his ambitions. His predecessor was never out of disgrace, couldn't do foreign policy (very scant legacy -- his lone foreign-policy success seems to have been handing the Balkans fighting over to Europe to settle), and had the DoJ completely suborned with Janet Reno. His predecessor got two terms, neither with my vote, I can tell you. Unlike his predecessor, your own civil rights have never been imperiled nor eroded with GWB, whatever the pretenses of the ravers have been. Look at what they say happens, then look at really does happen. This is why I'll defend GWB's record.

Item: GWB kept me happy enough with him to vote for him twice. He did things I wanted done. This cannot be dismissed as just UG being crazy -- it's UG thinking better than most of the people who yell at him around here.
classicman • Jan 29, 2009 7:31 pm
Did he do anything that you would be critical of or didn't like? I am seriously interested in your answer.
sugarpop • Jan 30, 2009 12:43 am
Urbane Guerrilla;528197 wrote:
The people who cry "disaster disaster disaster" frankly don't impress me with their thinking. The "disaster" they seem to have in mind always seems to be better said as "a setback to the [il]liberal agenda." O'Reilly calls these people "Secular-Progressives," if you'd rather use that term, and reckons they don't got it. He makes a pretty solid case.


Well, it's pretty hard to say there is no disaster happening in this country when millions of people are losing their jobs and homes, while Wall Street execs give themselves 18 billion dollars in bonuses after taxpayers paid hundreds of billions to bail them out. I think we should just nationalize all the banks and be done with it. That's what many other countries have done. Those morons caused us to lose, what? 3 TRILLION dollars in the stock market over the past 3 months? Frankly, I think there should criminal investigations, and people should go straight to prison. I also think their money and assets should be confiscated and sold off to help pay for this mess.

Item: refusal to pass gun control legislation -- good for the Republic, bad for increasing the chances of genocides, and for criminals generally. Gun rights are a most potent expression of human rights -- a right not to be murdered or robbed, a right not to suffer genocide. Fundamental, I should think.


I'm all for gun rights, but the NRA are extremists in their positions, as much as some people on the left are in theirs. There should be responsible gun control. Why is it such a problem to require certain things to make sure guns don't fall into the wrong hands? And why is it such a problem for certain kinds of weapons to require a special license? And I seriously doubt we need to worry about genocide in this country.

Item: demolition of undemocratic regimes, plural -- better for good government worldwide; the greatest part of human miseries stem from bad governance, as looking for correlations of bad national quality of life with undemocratic governance will show.


And why should be it OUR JOB to judge bad governance, or to police the world? WE certainly wouldn't want some foreign regime coming into OUR country and telling US how to live. At least I know I wouldn't. So why should we think any other country would want us to do that to them? IF there is genocide going on somewhere, or some form of apartheid or something, of course we should help. But any military action should be done through NATO, not with US military control. For one thing, we can't afford it. And for another, it simply isn't our right to force our form of government on other countries. How is that any different from what Germany did, or Russia?

On a related note, it's one option for making a better world that isn't taking in millions of illegal immigrants: make their home places better than they were, and where's the wrong in removing those human obstacles to that idea that invariably present themselves, with their guns, their goons, their clubs and gas? That we're about the best country around is evidenced by how many millions of people are literally breaking into the place to partake. About eleven million illegals these days.


Ummm, condescending much? Most of the illegals who are breaking into the United States are poor, and live in places that leave much to be desired. But there are lots of other countries out there that are at least as good as ours, and many of the people who live in those countries think theirs is better than ours. You are looking at the world through a very small looking glass, and with a very big filter.

Item: not being buffaloed by environmentalist lobbies promotes efficient business by ensuring the cost of doing business is not so excessive it is no longer worthwhile -- that way lies European stagnation. Business is something humans do, and GWB understood that in his bones.


What? You don't care about drinking fresh, clean water, or having wholesome food that isn't laced with pesticides and toxins, or breathing clean air? I'll tell you what. Go find your own planet to live on, then you can pollute it as much as you want. This planet does not belong to US, or to INDUSTRY. We SHARE IT with a world community. The fact that we have organizations that fight for our safety is one of things that made this country great. But I guess you don't mind getting contaminated crap from China...

Item: Federal-level government almost entirely engrossed in foreign policy reduced any temptation to meddle with domestic affairs, to the benefit of those affairs and of civil rights also, unlike his predecessor, who clearly viewed the Bill of Rights not as a guide to his behavior in office, but as a stumbling-block to his ambitions. His predecessor was never out of disgrace, couldn't do foreign policy (very scant legacy -- his lone foreign-policy success seems to have been handing the Balkans fighting over to Europe to settle), and had the DoJ completely suborned with Janet Reno. His predecessor got two terms, neither with my vote, I can tell you. Unlike his predecessor, your own civil rights have never been imperiled nor eroded with GWB, whatever the pretenses of the ravers have been. Look at what they say happens, then look at really does happen. This is why I'll defend GWB's record.


WHAT? Are you KIDDING ME? Haven't you been listening to the news? Do you not realize how deep the wiretaps went into spying on Americans? bush threw out the Constitution. He pissed on it, and gave us all the finger while doing it. Clinton's foreign policy put bush to shame, and I'm not even a fan of his. The fact that people on the right can't get over him getting a blow job in the Oval Office is just stupid. So what? The man liked sex. I would rather have someone in office getting some on the side than someone misleading the American people into a needless war, and then completely demolishing our reputation around the world with his arrogance. And let's not forget the torture...

Item: GWB kept me happy enough with him to vote for him twice. He did things I wanted done. This cannot be dismissed as just UG being crazy -- it's UG thinking better than most of the people who yell at him around here.


Great. So we can blame you for financial meltdown, and the torture, and everything else bush did to ruin this country. I'm so glad he made you happy though.
classicman • Jan 30, 2009 12:46 am
Hey sugarpop - do you think congress has any culpability in this mess? Are they responsible at all for any of the financial issues we are dealing with? I'm interested in your opinion.
sugarpop • Jan 30, 2009 1:39 am
classicman;528309 wrote:
Hey sugarpop - do you think congress has any culpability in this mess? Are they responsible at all for any of the financial issues we are dealing with? I'm interested in your opinion.


Of course they do. And anyone in Congress who was complicit in any way that could be deemed illegal or unethical or neglectful should be dealt with in whatever way is open to us. I'm sick to death of corruption and greed, and Congress (and politics in general, just look at blago) is ripe with it. But people in Congress did not write all those mortgages, knowing they were probably going to be bad, and then sell them over and over and over. And Congress did not give billions of dollars in bonuses and salaries to a few executives while they were driving us into the toilet. This global meltdown started HERE, with OUR financial system. And it all started with mortgages and banks and Wall Street. I'm wondering if they even teach ethics at Wharton or Harvard Business School anymore.

They need to put reasonable regulation, transparency and oversight back into law. I believe ultimately, deregulation caused a lot of this.
classicman • Jan 30, 2009 1:43 pm
sugarpop;528317 wrote:
Of course they do. And anyone in Congress who was complicit in any way that could be deemed illegal or unethical or neglectful should be dealt with in whatever way is open to us. I'm sick to death of corruption and greed, and Congress (and politics in general, just look at blago) is ripe with it.


Did you read the thread "How a 'perfect storm' led to the economic crisis"

I find it ironic that those calling for investigations were themselves as involved in the oversight as those they are accusing. Dodd, Frank...

No the congresspeople didn't write the loans - that we agree upon. But it sure seems that the financial lobbyists they were very close with knew what was going on. They sure as hell have a lot of explaining to do and should stop the finger pointing.
sugarpop • Jan 31, 2009 7:38 am
I posted a reeeeally long response to that article. (Because I felt the need to go into a whole lot of things that I see as being contributing factors to what happened. :D) Thanks for guiding me there.
TheMercenary • Jan 31, 2009 2:48 pm
sugarpop;528307 wrote:
WHAT? Are you KIDDING ME? Haven't you been listening to the news? Do you not realize how deep the wiretaps went into spying on Americans?
Sorry honey. That was a Bush plan completely approved by a Democratcially dominated Congress. The Democrats approved it the first time as well but the Congress was controlled by the Rebublickins and Bush carried it out. You can't blame Bush for that one.
sugarpop • Jan 31, 2009 10:02 pm
TheMercenary;529012 wrote:
Sorry honey. That was a Bush plan completely approved by a Democratcially dominated Congress. The Democrats approved it the first time as well but the Congress was controlled by the Rebublickins and Bush carried it out. You can't blame Bush for that one.


Some of them may have approved it for what it was supposed to be for, which in my understanding was to listen in on Americans who were suspected of terrorist associations on phone calls from other countries, but they completely misused it and simply spied on everyone and anyone. They were even listening in on personal phone calls our SOLDIERS were making from Iraq and Afghanistan to their wives and husbands. And you can't possibly believe Bush told them everything about how he was using it. He had the most secretive administration ever, and he thought he was above the law.
classicman • Feb 1, 2009 2:04 am
I can picture Bush and Cheney sittin in the office with headphones on
listening to me talk to my mom... can you?
Griff • Feb 1, 2009 7:18 am
TheMercenary;529012 wrote:
...Bush carried it out. You can't blame Bush for that one.


Somebody grab the butterfly net!
TheMercenary • Feb 1, 2009 9:53 am
House approves Patriot Act renewal
Approval sends measure to Bush's desk before expiration

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/03/07/patriot.act/
Redux • Feb 1, 2009 10:41 am
TheMercenary;529012 wrote:
Sorry honey. That was a Bush plan completely approved by a Democratcially dominated Congress. The Democrats approved it the first time as well but the Congress was controlled by the Rebublickins and Bush carried it out. You can't blame Bush for that one.


As a matter of fact, the Democrats did not approve the FISA abuses of warrantless wiretaping "the first time".

Bush did it unilaterally, using the congresionally approved Authorization of Use of Military Force (AUMF) as a legal justification.

An AUMF authorizes military force...NOT NSA wiretapping.

Gonzales lied to Congress about it and Bush as much as acknowledged that there was no Congressional approval, which was why he called for a new and expanded FISA bill after the abuses became public.

they did go along with the amended FISA (Protect America Act) in 07, but were instrumental in including greater Congressional oversight and far greater limitations on wiretapping American citizens.

I had to come back here to correct the revisionist history :)
TheMercenary • Feb 1, 2009 11:05 am
Redux;529241 wrote:
As a matter of fact, the Democrats did not approve the FISA abuses of warrantless wiretaping "the first time".

Bush did it unilaterally, using the congresionally approved Authorization of Use of Military Force (AUMF) as a legal justification.

An AUMF authorizes military force...NOT NSA wiretapping.

Gonzales lied to Congress about it and Bush as much as acknowledged that there was no Congressional approval, which was why he called for a new and expanded FISA bill after the abuses became public.

they did go along with the amended FISA (Protect America Act) in 07, but were instrumental in including greater Congressional oversight and far greater limitations on wiretapping American citizens.

I had to come back here to correct the revisionist history :)


Correct. Not the first time. But they did approve it a second time as well as the protection of the large telecoms. It was the courts that rebuked Bush on FISA, not Congress.
Redux • Feb 1, 2009 11:10 am
TheMercenary;529252 wrote:
Correct. Not the first time. But they did approve it a second time as well as the protection of the large telecoms. It was the courts that rebuked Bush on FISA, not Congress.

It was the Congressional oversight hearings by the Democrats that brought it to the attention of the courts....oversight in many areas that was sorely lacking for 6 years.

And I was disappointed in the Democratic caving on the telecomm immunity, but pleased that at least the new FISA has more oversight and limitations.
TheMercenary • Feb 1, 2009 11:15 am
I believe the "new" FISA was not much different from the way it was prior to Bush, and fixed some of the problems that the Bush admin said they had with it, like a significantly faster turn around time fro approval of wire taps on actionable intell. And that was a good thing.
Redux • Feb 1, 2009 11:19 am
The differences may be small, but they were significant in terms of oversight and protection of Americans oversees from warrantless wiretaps.

In fact, the Bush administration, through Gonzales testimony at an oversight hearing, specifically said they did NOT need FISA reform...sadly at the same time they were already exceeding FISA authority with warrantless wiretaps of Americans.
TheMercenary • Feb 1, 2009 11:25 am
Redux;529258 wrote:
The differences may be small, but they were significant in terms of oversight and protection of Americans oversees from warrantless wiretaps.

In fact, the Bush administration, through Gonzales testimony at an oversight hearing, specifically said they did NOT need FISA reform...sadly at the same time they were already exceeding FISA authority with warrantless wiretaps of Americans.

Wiretaps of Americans under FISA is still approved. I agree they should include the FISA courts. Esp since they have a history of not turning down any requests. They greater controversy was not about warrantless wire taps, it was wire taps of Americans, that had not been included before. Now it is approved, as it should be.
Redux • Feb 1, 2009 11:27 am
with more Congressional oversight...as it should be.
TheMercenary • Feb 1, 2009 11:41 am
Redux;529264 wrote:
with more Congressional oversight...as it should be.


With no Congressional oversight. Only oversight by FISA courts. Congress should not be involved.
Redux • Feb 1, 2009 11:57 am
I want checks and balances on any court and any president's use of FISA...and it can certainly be accomplished in closed Intel Committee hearings to protect national security, if necessary.
TheMercenary • Feb 1, 2009 12:00 pm
Redux;529273 wrote:
I want checks and balances on any court and any president's use of FISA...and it can certainly be accomplished in closed Intel Committee hearings to protect national security, if necessary.


Congress leaks like a sieve.
Redux • Feb 1, 2009 12:06 pm
A leaking sieve is a far better protection against potential Constitutional abuses than no sieve at all.

This is one where most liberals and libertarians agree.
TheMercenary • Feb 1, 2009 12:08 pm
Redux;529281 wrote:
A leaking sieve is a far better protection against potential Constitutional abuses than no sieve at all.

This is one where most liberals and libertarians agree.

I am not talking about protection against abuses, that is what the FISA court is for. I am talking about protection of sensitive intell, something Congress has a hard time doing, under the best of circumstances.
Redux • Feb 1, 2009 12:10 pm
IMO, the FISA court should be accountable like any federal court...but with reasonable protection of national security information.
Undertoad • Feb 1, 2009 12:25 pm
sugarpop;529129 wrote:
but they completely misused it and simply spied on everyone and anyone. They were even listening in on personal phone calls our SOLDIERS were making from Iraq and Afghanistan to their wives and husbands.


Cite please.

You'll be amazed at how much you believe is bullshit, if you just look for cites. I know I was, when I first tried to confirm what I knew.

And you can't possibly believe Bush told them everything about how he was using it. He had the most secretive administration ever, and he thought he was above the law.


It wasn't "Bush" using it, it was the NSA. This means a lot of people are involved, and the more people, the more likely information about how it's used or misused is to leak out. In fact the very existence of the program was revealed to the NY Times by such a leaker.

Also, this is a logical riddle meant to win arguments, which is something less than a proof. "We believe the program was widely abused." "How do you know?" "Because Bush was secretive! We didn't hear anything, that means something was going on!" Ehh, I'll need a little more than that, personally.
Redux • Feb 1, 2009 12:29 pm
Undertoad;529293 wrote:


It wasn't "Bush" using it, it was the NSA.

It was the NSA acting under an order by Bush through what most Constitutional scholars have said was an illegal interpretation of an AUMF.

IMO, the "leaker" who gave no details that threatened national security, should be applauded.

(pardon the echo chamber)
TheMercenary • Feb 1, 2009 12:36 pm
Redux;529296 wrote:
It was the NSA acting under an order by Bush through what most Constitutional scholars have said was an illegal interpretation of an AUMF.

IMO, the "leaker" who gave no details that threatened national security, should be applauded.

(pardon the echo chamber)


I disagree and it was not what most constitutional scholars stated, it was only those that agree with that notion. Never the less it was a leak for a political agenda. That person should be punished.
Redux • Feb 1, 2009 12:47 pm
TheMercenary;529300 wrote:
I disagree and it was not what most constitutional scholars stated, it was only those that agree with that notion. Never the less it was a leak for a political agenda. That person should be punished.

Fair enough, I should have said...constitutional scholars from both the left and right....

I would also suggest it was a leak in the most general terms possible by a government employee who had serious and justifiable concerns that laws were potentially being broken and Constitutional rights potentially being violated. There is nothing to suggest that it compromised national security.
classicman • Feb 1, 2009 4:34 pm
Redux;529305 wrote:
I would also suggest it was a leak in the most general terms possible by a government employee who had serious and justifiable concerns that laws were potentially being broken and Constitutional rights potentially being violated.


One could also suggest that the leak was due to a pissed off employee with perhaps, a political axe to grind. What makes one scenario more believable than the other?
Both are mere speculation.
sugarpop • Feb 1, 2009 5:48 pm
Undertoad;529293 wrote:
Cite please.

You'll be amazed at how much you believe is bullshit, if you just look for cites. I know I was, when I first tried to confirm what I knew.


Keith Olberman interviewed a former analyst at the National Security Agency, whisleblower Russell Tice.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677#28781200

There are a couple of interviews there. Just click on them. and this has been all over the news. Do you not watch the news?

It wasn't "Bush" using it, it was the NSA. This means a lot of people are involved, and the more people, the more likely information about how it's used or misused is to leak out. In fact the very existence of the program was revealed to the NY Times by such a leaker.

Also, this is a logical riddle meant to win arguments, which is something less than a proof. "We believe the program was widely abused." "How do you know?" "Because Bush was secretive! We didn't hear anything, that means something was going on!" Ehh, I'll need a little more than that, personally.


Bush authorized it though. He is the one who wanted it. he was the one in charge. to claim he didn't know, when he was "the decider," is very naive, I think.

Why do you keep asking me to cite things? Do you think I'm just making stuff up?
sugarpop • Feb 1, 2009 5:52 pm
TheMercenary;529300 wrote:
I disagree and it was not what most constitutional scholars stated, it was only those that agree with that notion. Never the less it was a leak for a political agenda. That person should be punished.


No, he should be applauded. Anytime our government is behaving outside of the law, SOMEONE needs to come forward. Otherwise our government turns into a shadow government that can commit all kinds of abuses against the people. That is not the kind of government we are supposed to have. that is what we fight against in other countries.
sugarpop • Feb 1, 2009 5:56 pm
classicman;529361 wrote:
One could also suggest that the leak was due to a pissed off employee with perhaps, a political axe to grind. What makes one scenario more believable than the other?
Both are mere speculation.


What about the leaking of Valerie Plame's name? No one was punished for that. Still haven't been. and it can most certainly be argued that is was done for political reasons, and by people very high up the food chain...
TheMercenary • Feb 1, 2009 6:00 pm
sugarpop;529380 wrote:
No, he should be applauded. Anytime our government is behaving outside of the law, SOMEONE needs to come forward. Otherwise our government turns into a shadow government that can commit all kinds of abuses against the people. That is not the kind of government we are supposed to have. that is what we fight against in other countries.
It has been like that long before Bush ever came on the scene. There are many things the masses should never be privy to. But I do agree there should be better oversight by FISA, and other entities.
classicman • Feb 1, 2009 8:18 pm
sugarpop;529381 wrote:
What about the leaking of Valerie Plame's name? ~snip~ it can most certainly be argued that is was done for political reasons, and by people very high up the food chain...


That was my point. Now the next question is ...who? Was is someone higher up or just someone who got passed over for a promotion or ..a zillion other scenarios. We just don't know - therefore again we are just speculating.
TheMercenary • Feb 1, 2009 8:40 pm
sugarpop;529381 wrote:
What about the leaking of Valerie Plame's name? No one was punished for that. Still haven't been. and it can most certainly be argued that is was done for political reasons, and by people very high up the food chain...
I can't agree more. Someone or a group of people should be behind bars. Purely a political leak. Completely damaging to interests of national security.
Undertoad • Feb 1, 2009 10:36 pm
Keith Olberman interviewed a former analyst at the National Security Agency, whisleblower Russell Tice.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677#28781200
That's close but no cigar, there. Pay careful attention. Tice doesn't really say much, does he? Media was monitored in some sort of "24/7" mode. Well, what does that really mean? Different metadata was collected. You're lead to believe "something's up" -- but in the end, he hasn't alleged anything. That's why the piece is headlined "Did U.S. Spy on Journalists?", not "U.S. Spied on Journalists".

Meanwhile, it would appear that Tice has a bone to pick with his former employer that has nothing to do with FISA.
Redux • Feb 1, 2009 10:36 pm
sugarpop;529380 wrote:
No, he should be applauded. Anytime our government is behaving outside of the law, SOMEONE needs to come forward. Otherwise our government turns into a shadow government that can commit all kinds of abuses against the people. That is not the kind of government we are supposed to have. that is what we fight against in other countries.

Exactly why we need better "whistleblower" protection.

I would hope the Whistleblower Protection Enhancement Act that the Democrats introduced last session, and passed in the House (bipartisan vote, 331-94) but stalled in the Senate, will be reintroduced this year.

Bush had threatened to veto it.
Undertoad • Feb 1, 2009 10:40 pm
Richard Armitage leaked Plame's name. Since no charges were filed despite extensive efforts of the Prosecutor in this case, one might guess that leaking the name was not unlawful.
Redux • Feb 1, 2009 10:44 pm
Undertoad;529473 wrote:
Richard Armitage leaked Plame's name. Since no charges were filed despite extensive efforts of the Prosecutor in this case, one might guess that leaking the name was not unlawful.

Or one could suggest that Libby took the fall by obstructing justice and lying under oath.

But to me, this issue is irrelevant and has nothing in common with the more important issue of protecting government employees who leak (I would rather not see a leak in the press, but a better internal process to protect such employees) information on potentially illegal activities.
sugarpop • Feb 2, 2009 7:06 pm
Undertoad;529470 wrote:
That's close but no cigar, there. Pay careful attention. Tice doesn't really say much, does he? Media was monitored in some sort of "24/7" mode. Well, what does that really mean? Different metadata was collected. You're lead to believe "something's up" -- but in the end, he hasn't alleged anything. That's why the piece is headlined "Did U.S. Spy on Journalists?", not "U.S. Spied on Journalists".

Meanwhile, it would appear that Tice has a bone to pick with his former employer that has nothing to do with FISA.


Was this not the interview where he talked about NSA officials listening in on personal calls from military personel to their spouses? Whoever talked about it said they would actually tell other agents so they could listen in as well, if it was juicy. hmmmm, I wonder which program I heard that on... I thought it was that one.

So many people have come out against Bush and his administration and their policies, from the very beginning when he was first elected, and people on the right always say they had an axe to grind. Well they couldn't all just be disgruntled employees. The fact that there have been so many speaks volumes, to me anyway.
sugarpop • Feb 2, 2009 7:13 pm
Redux;529477 wrote:
Or one could suggest that Libby took the fall by obstructing justice and lying under oath.

But to me, this issue is irrelevant and has nothing in common with the more important issue of protecting government employees who leak (I would rather not see a leak in the press, but a better internal process to protect such employees) information on potentially illegal activities.


I think whistleblowers need better protection as well, in government and in corporate America, but I also think it's pretty horrifying that someone could leak an active undercover intelligence agent's name to the press and not be prosecuted. That is a serious national security leak. And bush was supposed to be all about national security. The truth is, bush was about what was convenient for bush. Now he's trying to claim executive priviledge for people who worked for him in perpetuity (I'm talking about Karl Rove). The man really does think he is above the law. I want to see him knocked down off that pedestal.
Redux • Feb 3, 2009 12:49 am
sugarpop;529762 wrote:
I think whistleblowers need better protection as well, in government and in corporate America, but I also think it's pretty horrifying that someone could leak an active undercover intelligence agent's name to the press and not be prosecuted. That is a serious national security leak. And bush was supposed to be all about national security. The truth is, bush was about what was convenient for bush. Now he's trying to claim executive priviledge for people who worked for him in perpetuity (I'm talking about Karl Rove). The man really does think he is above the law. I want to see him knocked down off that pedestal.

I agree that someone higher than Libby (Cheney?) should be held accountable..but its not gonna happen and at this point, I would prefer to look ahead.

BTW, Undertoad...if Tice, in his recent interviews, had provided any detail beyond just the general outline of what he observed in the way of potentially illegal spying on citizens by the NSA with an authorization from Bush, he would likely have been subject to arrest under the Official Secrets Act.

What I would like to see is an independent commission like the one proposed last month by the Democratic chair of the House Judiciary Committee.

To establish a national commission on presidential war powers and civil liberties

There is established the National Commission on Presidential War Powers and Civil Liberties (hereinafter in this Act referred to as the ‘Commission’) to investigate the broad range of policies of the Administration of President George W. Bush that were undertaken under claims of unreviewable war powers, including detention by the United States Armed Forces and the intelligence community, the use by the United States Armed Forces or the intelligence community of enhanced interrogation techniques or interrogation techniques not authorized by the Uniform Code of Military Justice, ‘ghosting’ or other policies intended to conceal the fact that an individual has been captured or detained, extraordinary rendition, domestic warrantless electronic surveillance, and other policies that the Commission may determine to be relevant to its investigation (hereinafter in this Act referred to as ‘the activities’).

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-104


Not for punitive purposes against Bush administration officials, but rather to ensure that questionable abuses of power that occurred over the last eight years are not enabled through dubious legal justifications for Obama or any future president. Bush would be required to waive executive immunity for anyone other than himself (which is probably unconstitutional under most circumstances anyway) and I would even give sweeping immunity to lower level persons who might have been engaged in those questionable practices to get at the truth.

Something along the lines of a Truth and Reconciliation Commission.
Undertoad • Feb 3, 2009 9:02 am
BTW, Undertoad...if Tice, in his recent interviews, had provided any detail beyond just the general outline of what he observed in the way of potentially illegal spying on citizens by the NSA with an authorization from Bush, he would likely have been subject to arrest under the Official Secrets Act.


He can say "I have additional, utterly convincing details which I can't reveal under the law. My hope is that a Special Prosecutor is appointed to whom I can safely give this information."

But he doesn't. He just puts his poorly-explained evidence of *something* suspicious and lets it hang there, so people will take it as confirmed that domestic spying happened.

And if it were me, and I had actual, damning evidence of illegal operations, I would accept being arrested for revealing it. How about you?
Redux • Feb 3, 2009 9:40 am
Undertoad;529982 wrote:
He can say "I have additional, utterly convincing details which I can't reveal under the law. My hope is that a Special Prosecutor is appointed to whom I can safely give this information."

But he doesn't. He just puts his poorly-explained evidence of *something* suspicious and lets it hang there, so people will take it as confirmed that domestic spying happened.

And if it were me, and I had actual, damning evidence of illegal operations, I would accept being arrested for revealing it. How about you?

I agree that the manner in which Tice revealed what he (allegedly) knew and saw raises doubt and doesnt necessarily reflect well on him.

I dont know that I am that noble as to potentially risk 5-10 years in jail for crimes against the "people" committed by higher ups. I would like to think so.

I do believe that it is essential that the fact surrounding the Bush administration actions and their unilateral interpretation of presidential "war powers" (particularly when Congress had not declared a "state of war") be brought to light.

Which is why I believe that these many Bush memorandum be made public and part of an investigation such as that proposed in the Commission described above.

Not for the purpose of putting Bush officials on trial, but for putting further safeguards in place to restore the executive/legislative checks and balances and prevent such actions by any future president.
sugarpop • Feb 3, 2009 12:28 pm
Redux;529939 wrote:
I agree that someone higher than Libby (Cheney?) should be held accountable..but its not gonna happen and at this point, I would prefer to look ahead.

BTW, Undertoad...if Tice, in his recent interviews, had provided any detail beyond just the general outline of what he observed in the way of potentially illegal spying on citizens by the NSA with an authorization from Bush, he would likely have been subject to arrest under the Official Secrets Act.

What I would like to see is an independent commission like the one proposed last month by the Democratic chair of the House Judiciary Committee.



Not for punitive purposes against Bush administration officials, but rather to ensure that questionable abuses of power that occurred over the last eight years are not enabled through dubious legal justifications for Obama or any future president. Bush would be required to waive executive immunity for anyone other than himself (which is probably unconstitutional under most circumstances anyway) and I would even give sweeping immunity to lower level persons who might have been engaged in those questionable practices to get at the truth.

Something along the lines of a Truth and Reconciliation Commission.


So you don't bush officials should be prosecuted if they are found guilty of committing a crime?

What I find completely unacceptable is the attitude of so many people, including apparently President Obama, to not want to get to the bottom of what went on, and to prosecute anyone and everyone guilty of a crime. That's like saying, oh, let's just let the murderer or rapist go (or Bernie Madoff for that matter), because you know, it's in the past, and we should just move on.

Either we are a nation of laws, or we are not. If we aren't willing to go after the most powerful people in the country (in government and business) for committing crimes, then we should throw out the lawbooks for everyone. Otherwise this is NOT a free country, and we nothing more than a bunch of hypocrites.
Redux • Feb 3, 2009 2:35 pm
sugarpop;530068 wrote:
So you don't bush officials should be prosecuted if they are found guilty of committing a crime?

What I find completely unacceptable is the attitude of so many people, including apparently President Obama, to not want to get to the bottom of what went on, and to prosecute anyone and everyone guilty of a crime. That's like saying, oh, let's just let the murderer or rapist go (or Bernie Madoff for that matter), because you know, it's in the past, and we should just move on.

Either we are a nation of laws, or we are not. If we aren't willing to go after the most powerful people in the country (in government and business) for committing crimes, then we should throw out the lawbooks for everyone. Otherwise this is NOT a free country, and we nothing more than a bunch of hypocrites.

Prosecutors at every level make value judgments all the time as to whether it is in the public interest to proceed or not with particular cases of alleged criminal activity. In other cases, they compromise (offer plea bargains) to get at the truth.

I think the potential cost to the country of having criminal trials that will be perceived by many as highly partisan, and creating a greater divide within the country than already exists, outweighs the benefits. In these troubled times, that is the last thing we need.

I want documents declassified and a structure in place to review the Bush administration's actions from a bi-partisan legal perspective....for the purpose of providing safeguards, if necessary, to prevent those actions from being repeated.

If that happens and the truth is brought to light, historians and the people will make the final judgement of the last eight years.

I can live with that.
Undertoad • Feb 3, 2009 2:56 pm
A fine-toothed partisan fishing expedition could seriously affect Obama's ability to get things done. Prosecute the big and obvious, start with the ones with real, valid cites (hint hint), and let the rest go, no harm no foul. That's how it works in the real world.
Redux • Feb 3, 2009 7:02 pm
Undertoad;530131 wrote:
A fine-toothed partisan fishing expedition could seriously affect Obama's ability to get things done. Prosecute the big and obvious, start with the ones with real, valid cites (hint hint), and let the rest go, no harm no foul. That's how it works in the real world.


The biggest and most obvious ones were tucked in safely behind a wall of plausible deniability ("Mr. President, you dont need to know that.")
sugarpop • Feb 3, 2009 8:40 pm
Well I don't know. I guess I think war crimes are a lot more serious than everyone else. And abuse of power. And trampling over the Constitution, when you are sworn to defend it.

If we don't get to the bottom of the whole war crimes issue, we will never regain our trust with the rest of the world. That is just my opinion, but I feel very strongly about it.
sugarpop • Feb 3, 2009 8:41 pm
Redux;530217 wrote:
The biggest and most obvious ones were tucked in safely behind a wall of plausible deniability ("Mr. President, you dont need to know that.")


He has admitted in interviews that we tortured people. How is that hiding behind anything?
TheMercenary • Feb 4, 2009 8:42 am
Redux;530217 wrote:
The biggest and most obvious ones were tucked in safely behind a wall of plausible deniability ("Mr. President, you dont need to know that.")
Certainly you don't believe for one minute that Obama, or for that matter Clinton did not receive the same treatment. The days of Kennedy are long gone.
Redux • Feb 4, 2009 9:10 am
TheMercenary;530391 wrote:
Certainly you don't believe for one minute that Obama, or for that matter Clinton did not receive the same treatment. The days of Kennedy are long gone.


Bush wanted to use an Authorization of Military Force (AUMF) issued by Congress immediately after 9/11 (and then a second AUMF for the invasion of Iraq) to be able to justify any subsequent action in the name of fighting terrorism, including spying on citizens and denial of basic rights to and torture of detainees.

So he goes to his AG and asks for a legal opinion to justify broader powers than those specified in the AUMF. In my opinion (and I am not an attorney) the resulting memos were crafted in such a way that it provided the plausible deniability ("oh sorry, those underlings who implemented my orders just misunderstood my intent").

And he had the balls to send his staff to get that legal cover while his AG is in a hospital bed groggy from just coming out of surgery.

The role of the AG is to enforce the law on behalf of the "people", not provide a president with justification or lega cover to skirt the law in future actions.

Clinton....show me where he ever asked his AG to write a legal opinion to provide cover for any future actions he might want to take.

Obama...show me where he has done the same in the last two weeks?

Kennedy....I would have been a supporter but I was too young at the time, but I think having your brother serve as AG is a bad idea.
TheMercenary • Feb 4, 2009 9:53 am
Redux;530403 wrote:
Bush wanted to use an Authorization of Military Force (AUMF) issued by Congress immediately after 9/11 (and then a second AUMF for the invasion of Iraq) to be able to justify any subsequent action in the name of fighting terrorism, including spying on citizens and denial of basic rights to and torture of detainees.
Sorry but there really is no evidence to support that Bush specifically said, "Hey guys, go figure out how to spy on citizens and deny of basic rights to and torture detainees." That is a fantasy of people who hate Bush. Those were events which evolved over time with subsequent results. It was not till much later that it was evident in the vagueness of the directives that people began to realize what they had unleashed.

So he goes to his AG and asks for a legal opinion to justify broader powers than those specified in the AUMF. In my opinion (and I am not an attorney) the resulting memos were crafted in such a way that it provided the plausible deniability ("oh sorry, those underlings who implemented my orders just misunderstood my intent").
Broader powers, sure, but who says he set out to prevent basic rights and to torture? Certainly there must be a smoking gun right?

And he had the balls to send his staff to get that legal cover while his AG is in a hospital bed groggy from just coming out of surgery.
And they were denied.

The role of the AG is to enforce the law on behalf of the "people", not provide a president with justification or lega cover to skirt the law in future actions.
Sure, and as we discussed before Reno did the same thing.

Clinton....show me where he ever asked his AG to write a legal opinion to provide cover for any future actions he might want to take.

Obama...show me where he has done the same in the last two weeks?

Kennedy....I would have been a supporter but I was too young at the time, but I think having your brother serve as AG is a bad idea.
It is not so much about what Obama has not done yet, it is about the history of all presidents back at least to the days of Kennedy, whom was more involved in the day to day operations of military and clandestine activity, where they all use plausible denial.
Redux • Feb 4, 2009 10:11 am
TheMercenary;530412 wrote:
Sorry but there really is no evidence to support that Bush specifically said, "Hey guys, go figure out how to spy on citizens and deny of basic rights to and torture detainees." That is a fantasy of people who hate Bush. Those were events which evolved over time with subsequent results. It was not till much later that it was evident in the vagueness of the directives that people began to realize what they had unleashed.


That is why I believe that these memos, written by DOJ attorney John Woo et al, in the months after 9/11 could very well be the evidence and should be declassified:
Fourth Amendment doesnt apply to military operations..in the US

Laws and treaties regarding treatment of prisoners

Options for interpreting the Geneva Conventions

Convention against torture has limited applications in the US

Legality of communications intelligence activities

...and the whole damn list.

http://www.propublica.org/special/missing-memos?s=1

The public has a right to know and it would pose no threat to national security.
Undertoad • Feb 4, 2009 10:13 am
Clinton....show me where he ever asked his AG to write a legal opinion to provide cover for any future actions he might want to take.


The Executive branch constantly gets DOJ legal review of things. It's supposed to work that way.
Redux • Feb 4, 2009 10:16 am
Undertoad;530426 wrote:
The Executive branch constantly gets DOJ legal review of things. It's supposed to work that way.

I dont think many previous DoJ legal opinions were kept secret in order to allow subsequent actions.

I believe there is evidence that Bush reversed the process. along the lines of (paraprashing) "I know the law says we have to abide by our international treaty obligations, I want a DoJ memo to give me the cover to get around it in our war on terrorism."

All the more reason to have the above cited memos declassified.
TheMercenary • Feb 4, 2009 10:19 am
Redux;530428 wrote:
Fine...all the more reason to have those DoJ memos declassified.


I agree they should be declassified. In 50 years. Maybe more. I do not support the idea the public needs to know every tidbit of info. That is what we elected officals for. Let them provide the oversight. It does not always need to be released for every arm-chair Monday morning quarterback to review so they can weave conspiracy theory into it. I would never support that.
Redux • Feb 4, 2009 10:21 am
TheMercenary;530429 wrote:
I agree they should be declassified. In 50 years. Maybe more. I do not support the idea the public needs to know every tidbit of info. That is what we elected officals for. Let them provide the oversight. It does not always need to be released for every arm-chair Monday morning quarterback to review so they can weave conspiracy theory into it. I would never support that.


How can Congress provide oversight w/o access to these documents?

I guess we have different beliefs on transparency and accountability as being in the best interest of the people and ensuring rule by law.
TheMercenary • Feb 4, 2009 10:26 am
Select committees should have some oversight. Anyone with a computer and a FOIA request should not.
Redux • Feb 4, 2009 10:32 am
Shouldnt the courts ultimately determine when the 4th amendment applies, not a DoJ attorney opinion?
One of those secret memos:

This memo, titled Re: Authority for Use of Military Force to Combat Terrorist Activities Within the United States, concludes that the Fourth Amendment's protections against warrantless search and seizure don't apply to military operations, even when the operations take place on U.S. soil.


How do you ensure the rule of law when actions are based on secret memos that may be questionable in their interpretation of the law?

Sure other presidents received DoJ opinion memos, but I dont know that they were kept from the public.
TheMercenary • Feb 4, 2009 11:17 am
How do you know what may or may not have happened if the memos are secret? Those are best taken care of by people with appropriate authority and oversight. Not by armchair quarterbacks second guessing every move.
Redux • Feb 4, 2009 11:30 am
TheMercenary;530469 wrote:
How do you know what may or may not have happened if the memos are secret? Those are best taken care of by people with appropriate authority and oversight. Not by armchair quarterbacks second guessing every move.


You didnt answer my question.

How do you ensure that the rule of law is followed when actions are based on secret memos (including being withheld from Congress) that may be questionable in their interpretation of the law?

Congress cant conduct appropriate authority and oversight w/o having access to documents that explain WTF the administration is doing or intending to do based on internal (and unilateral) legal interpretations of the law.

These documents have been withheld from Congress..that is a fact! On every request by the Judiciary Committees in both the House and Senate, the previous White House denied the request with dubious claims of executive privilege.
TheMercenary • Feb 4, 2009 11:42 am
I can't and don't defend the action of withholding the information from the Judiciary Committees. I do defend the right of government not to release infromation to the general public.
Redux • Feb 4, 2009 11:46 am
TheMercenary;530484 wrote:
I do defend the right of government not to release infromation to the general public.

I guess that is one NO vote for the Freedom of Information Act

I defend the peoples right to know unless there are clear and unambiguous threats to national security or the invasion of personal privacy by the release of information.
TheMercenary • Feb 4, 2009 11:58 am
Redux;530489 wrote:
I guess that is one NO vote for the Freedom of Information Act
No.

I defend the peoples right to know unless there are clear and unambiguous threats to national security or the invasion of personal privacy by the release of information.
That is way to broad. There are many reasons not to release information. So you want to see the information and they you get to tell us whether or not it would be a threat to national security? There are other people who are paid to do that. You just aren't one of them. And special interest groups are not either. There is a system in place for this process. It works.
Redux • Feb 4, 2009 12:00 pm
TheMercenary;530496 wrote:
....There is a system in place for this process. It works.

I agree that the system will work if FOIA is returned to its original intent as indicated in Obama's memo.

It did not work for the last eight years when Bush, through an executive order rather than by asking Congress to change the law if he thought it needed changing after 9/11, radically and unilaterally altered the intent of FOIA.

That is not how the framers of the Constitution envisioned the system of checks and balances working.
TheMercenary • Feb 4, 2009 12:05 pm
Redux;530497 wrote:
It did not work for the last eight years when Bush, through an executive order rather than by asking Congress to change the law if he thought it needed changing after 9/11, radically and unilaterally altered the intent of FOIA.
Objective citation please.

That is not how the framers of the Constitution envisioned the system of checks and balances working.
Controversial opinion.
Redux • Feb 4, 2009 12:07 pm
TheMercenary;530498 wrote:
Objective citation please.


No more citations for you...you are my citation probation...I already provided this:

The reason Obama issued this Memorandum,
Freedom of Information Act,

The Freedom of Information Act should be administered with a clear presumption: In the face of doubt, openness prevails.

All agencies should adopt a presumption in favor of disclosure, in order to renew their commitment to the principles embodied in FOIA, and to usher in a new era of open Government. The presumption of disclosure should be applied to all decisions involving FOIA.


was to make it clear that the previous administration's more restrictive FOIA policies would no longer be the policies and practices of the White House.

It seems like common sense to me that it would not have been necessary or need "renewing the commitment" if he believed FOIA was working as envisioned in the law...but perhaps you take it as a controversial opinion.
TheMercenary • Feb 4, 2009 12:33 pm
So you state this:

Originally Posted by Redux
It did not work for the last eight years when Bush, through an executive order rather than by asking Congress to change the law if he thought it needed changing after 9/11, radically and unilaterally altered the intent of FOIA.
and can't back it up? Ok, I guess we are done.
Undertoad • Feb 4, 2009 12:52 pm
Without an objective citation we are forced to do the research ourselves. My research so far: there was no Bush EO changing FOIA to make it more restrictive.

People complain about an October 2001 Ashcroft memo:

As you know, the Department of Justice and this Administration are committed to full compliance with the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA), 5 U.S.C. § 552 (2000). It is only through a well-informed citizenry that the leaders of our nation remain accountable to the governed and the American people can be assured that neither fraud nor government waste is concealed.

The Department of Justice and this Administration are equally committed to protecting other fundamental values that are held by our society. Among them are safeguarding our national security, enhancing the effectiveness of our law enforcement agencies, protecting sensitive business information and, not least, preserving personal privacy.

Our citizens have a strong interest as well in a government that is fully functional and efficient. Congress and the courts have long recognized that certain legal privileges ensure candid and complete agency deliberations without fear that they will be made public. Other privileges ensure that lawyers' deliberations and communications are kept private. No leader can operate effectively without confidential advice and counsel. Exemption 5 of the FOIA, 5 U.S.C. § 552(b)(5), incorporates these privileges and the sound policies underlying them.

I encourage your agency to carefully consider the protection of all such values and interests when making disclosure determinations under the FOIA. Any discretionary decision by your agency to disclose information protected under the FOIA should be made only after full and deliberate consideration of the institutional, commercial, and personal privacy interests that could be implicated by disclosure of the information.

In making these decisions, you should consult with the Department of Justice's Office of Information and Privacy when significant FOIA issues arise, as well as with our Civil Division on FOIA litigation matters. When you carefully consider FOIA requests and decide to withhold records, in whole or in part, you can be assured that the Department of Justice will defend your decisions unless they lack a sound legal basis or present an unwarranted risk of adverse impact on the ability of other agencies to protect other important records.

This memorandum supersedes the Department of Justice's FOIA Memorandum of October 4, 1993, and it likewise creates no substantive or procedural right enforceable at law.
(In short: if your agency denies a FOIA request for national security reasons, DOJ will back you. Ooh scary, radical creeping Fascism!)

Now notice, this memo did not produce law as an EO would, but was simply a statement about how the DoJ would operate on FOIA issues.

Bush's only EO on FOIA was Executive Order 13392, in which Bush set up Chief FOIA Officers at each of 90 federal agencies and asked for FOIA improvement plans from each agency; it was intended to improve FOIA responsiveness. Obama's memo refers to the reports on efficiency generated as a result of EO 13392.

The reason Obama issued this Memorandum,
A Memorandum -- and not an EO. An EO would be needed if the Bush administration had issued an EO making the FOIA more restrictive. Takes an EO to reverse an EO, not a Memorandum.

Bottom line: there was no Bush EO. And if you believe there was, this Memorandum can't override it.

Never ignore a citation request.
lookout123 • Feb 4, 2009 12:58 pm
Sometimes providing a cite could make your whole argument fall apart. We wouldn't want that now, would we?
Pico and ME • Feb 4, 2009 1:03 pm
Daaaaaaaammmmmmmmmmn.

This guy provides cite after cite and in between he throws in a little conjecture and opinion, but mostly he has been citing his stuff...which in a previous post Merc deliberately ignored. Therefore he says he wont cite for Merc anymore. So when Merc asks for one he didn't get it. I don't blame him.
Shawnee123 • Feb 4, 2009 1:05 pm
Yeah, I couldn't believe that one either, Pico. He pointedly ignores all previous cites, now he's the downtrodden ignored citation request guy?

sheesh
Redux • Feb 4, 2009 1:05 pm
Undertoad;530513 wrote:
Without an objective citation we are forced to do the research ourselves. My research so far: there was no Bush EO changing FOIA to make it more restrictive.

People complain about an October 2001 Ashcroft memo:
(In short: if your agency denies a FOIA request for national security reasons, DOJ will back you. Ooh scary, radical creeping Fascism!)

Now notice, this memo did not produce law as an EO would, but was simply a statement about how the DoJ would operate on FOIA issues.

Bush's only EO on FOIA was Executive Order 13392, in which Bush set up Chief FOIA Officers at each of 90 federal agencies and asked for FOIA improvement plans from each agency; it was intended to improve FOIA responsiveness. Obama's memo refers to the reports on efficiency generated as a result of EO 13392.

A Memorandum -- and not an EO. An EO would be needed if the Bush administration had issued an EO making the FOIA more restrictive. Takes an EO to reverse an EO, not a Memorandum.

Bottom line: there was no Bush EO. And if you believe there was, this Memorandum can't override it.

Never ignore a citation request.

Undertoad..I stand corrected on a Bush EO. Thank you!

The Obama memorandum simply affirms the policy direction of the administration that there be a presumption in favor of disclosure.

In my opinion and the opinion of many "good government" groups, the Ashcroft memo provided the opposite policy direction... that agencies should first look for any legal justification NOT to provide disclosure.

It if looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...its new or changed duck.
lookout123 • Feb 4, 2009 1:05 pm
my statement was a general one in response to UT's last line. There are a couple people around the cellar who wouldn't provide a cite to save their life.
Redux • Feb 4, 2009 1:07 pm
No more cite probation...i was just making a point.
Undertoad • Feb 4, 2009 1:20 pm
Re, all that said... from what I've read, a new AG generally issues a new policy on these things by memo. But it is a remarkable thing -- and when I say remarkable, I mean in a good sense -- that O issued the memo himself. It gives the policy much more weight. It's something that he will be judged upon by the responsiveness of the whole Federal government, and it means much more than a campaign promise.
Redux • Feb 4, 2009 1:38 pm
Undertoad;530533 wrote:
Re, all that said... from what I've read, a new AG generally issues a new policy on these things by memo. But it is a remarkable thing -- and when I say remarkable, I mean in a good sense -- that O issued the memo himself. It gives the policy much more weight. It's something that he will be judged upon by the responsiveness of the whole Federal government, and it means much more than a campaign promise.

Perhaps its a matter of tone.

The Reno memo suggested that requests were only to be denied if there was “foreseeable harm” in releasing the documents.

The Ashcroft memo suggested that agecies could deny FOIA requests as long as there was a “sound legal basis” for doing so. Ashcroft issues a second memo after 9/11

From a GAO report on the impact of the Ashcroft memo:
Federal agencies are limiting public access because of a 2001 memo from Attorney General John Ashcroft, according to a congressional watchdog agency.

The General Accounting Office (GAO) released a report saying, a significant percentage of Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) officers have reduced the amount of information available to the public because of Attorney General John Ashcroft’s infamous October 2001 memo. Ashcroft’s memo instructed agencies to exercise greater caution in disclosing information requested under FOIA.

The GAO investigated the impact of Ashcroft’s memo, in response to a request from Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-VT). GAO’s methodology included reviewing FOIA policy documents and surveying 183 FOIA officials at 23 federal agencies.

Almost a full third of the total number of FOIA officials surveyed (31 percent) reported that because of the memo there was a decreased likelihood that their agencies would make a discretionary release of information. Additionally, one-fourth of the FOIA officials surveyed reported that Ashcroft’s memo has changed the use of specific FOIA exemptions. For a single memo the impact indicated by this simple survey is considerable.

http://www.ombwatch.org/article/articleview/1821/1/189/

***
Following the issuance of the Ashcroft memorandum, Justice changed its guidance for agencies on FOIA implementation to refer to and reflect the two primary policy changes in the memorandum. First, under the Ashcroft memorandum, agencies making decisions on discretionary disclosure are directed to carefully consider such fundamental values as national security, effective law enforcement, and personal privacy; the Reno memorandum had established an overall “presumption of disclosure” and promoted discretionary disclosures to achieve “maximum responsible disclosure.”

Second, according to the Ashcroft memorandum, Justice will defend an agency’s withholding information if the agency has a “sound legal basis” for such withholding under FOIA; under the Reno policy, Justice would defend an agency’s withholding information only when the agency reasonably foresaw that disclosure would harm an interest protected by an exemption.

GAO report (pdf)
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d03981.pdf


The Obama memo restores and promotes a "presumption of disclosure" rather than seeking a "sound legal basis" not to disclose.

The more open the government...the more accountable!
TheMercenary • Feb 4, 2009 3:00 pm
I see no evidence that the reduction under Reno or Ashcroft resulted in harm or cover-up of information that was not released. So far it seems like they did the right thing and tightened up a very loose process of FOIA releases. So where is the problem? Your cite says that the GAO found that "sound legal basis" for withholding information was the standard by which the various departments would be defended. Sounds prudent to me.
Redux • Feb 4, 2009 6:33 pm
TheMercenary;530570 wrote:
I see no evidence that the reduction under Reno or Ashcroft.....

I guess you dont see the difference between the Reno and Ashcroft memos and the respective policy approach they proscribe in responding to FOIA requests.

Or the fact the Obama memo restores a policy similar to Reno and vastly different from Ashbrook.

We simply disagree....I want a more open and accountable government. You want to be more prudent.

Thats cool! I accept that.

But when making a case that there has been NO CHANGE by Obama....I hope you will read all three memos again. The Obama memo represents change...perhaps change you dont like, but change, nonetheless.

I'm just glad my guy is in now.
TheMercenary • Feb 4, 2009 6:49 pm
Redux;530630 wrote:
I'm just glad my guy is in now.

He's not your guy. He is The Man now. He is everyone's guy, just like Bush was, whether any of us want him or not. I am willing to give him the benifit of the doubt except when I see him doing the same things done by previous politicians. I am going to call him out on every thing I have heard other bitch about for the last 30 years.
Aliantha • Feb 4, 2009 6:51 pm
Well you just never know Merc. Maybe he'll do a good job, and you don't want to end up with egg on your face because you criticized too soon do you?
TheMercenary • Feb 4, 2009 6:53 pm
Aliantha;530642 wrote:
Well you just never know Merc. Maybe he'll do a good job, and you don't want to end up with egg on your face because you criticized too soon do you?
Unlike popular belief about me, I want him to be the most successful president eva. EVA! But I know better. Keep your eye on the ball.
Redux • Feb 4, 2009 6:55 pm
TheMercenary;530639 wrote:
.... I am going to call him out on every thing I have heard other bitch about for the last 30 years.


Sounds like a bitch fest!

It might be fun as long as one maintains some level of objectivity and recognizes that factual arguments differ from unsubstantiated opinions...both of which have their place at the party.
Redux • Feb 4, 2009 6:57 pm
Aussies are invited to the bitch fest?

I havent partied with Ali in ages!
Aliantha • Feb 4, 2009 6:59 pm
TheMercenary;530646 wrote:
Unlike popular belief about me, I want him to be the most successful president eva. EVA! But I know better. Keep your eye on the ball.


How can you know better? Do you have inside information? He's only just begun, so I don't see how you can possibly make any kind of rational judgement about his abilities just yet. Give him a few months and then start, but don't go making unfounded judgements just yet.
Redux • Feb 4, 2009 7:00 pm
Aliantha;530652 wrote:
....He's only just begun.....

Are you playing Karen Carpenter at this bitch fest?
Aliantha • Feb 4, 2009 7:00 pm
Redux;530651 wrote:
Aussies are invited to the bitch fest?

I havent partied with Ali in ages!


Oh yeah...I come to all the good bitch fests around here. If I don't, I have to worry about my reputation as a bitch slipping. ;)

I wont be doing too much partying for a little while though. I've got a little under two months and I'll be having a baby. :D
Aliantha • Feb 4, 2009 7:01 pm
Redux;530654 wrote:
Are you playing Karen Carpenter at this bitch fest?


I can't sing that well. lol
Redux • Feb 4, 2009 7:04 pm
Aliantha;530655 wrote:
Oh yeah...I come to all the good bitch fests around here. If I don't, I have to worry about my reputation as a bitch slipping. ;)

I wont be doing too much partying for a little while though. I've got a little under two months and I'll be having a baby. :D


Now we just need the mad Greek to show up! Remember her? I loved how she kicked ass!

Hey..congrats on the baby!!!!
Aliantha • Feb 4, 2009 7:08 pm
Thanks Redux. :)

Raine used to post here, and so did dov, but his views weren't popular with some people and Raine got the huffs and left.

It's a shame really. They both had some interesting points of view.
TheMercenary • Feb 4, 2009 7:11 pm
Aliantha;530652 wrote:
How can you know better? Do you have inside information? He's only just begun, so I don't see how you can possibly make any kind of rational judgement about his abilities just yet. Give him a few months and then start, but don't go making unfounded judgements just yet.
k... until them I will point and laugh where appropriate.:D
Aliantha • Feb 4, 2009 7:12 pm
Excellent. lol And let's just think for a moment how that sort of repetitive type posting worked for you last month. lol
TheMercenary • Feb 4, 2009 7:46 pm
Aliantha;530666 wrote:
Excellent. lol And let's just think for a moment how that sort of repetitive type posting worked for you last month. lol


Yea, well I guess it is ok to laugh and point at the president. Or I could just throw my shoe at him. :D
Aliantha • Feb 4, 2009 7:50 pm
Hey now there's a thought. lol
Griff • Feb 5, 2009 5:05 pm
Pico and ME;530522 wrote:
Daaaaaaaammmmmmmmmmn.

This guy provides cite after cite and in between he throws in a little conjecture and opinion, but mostly he has been citing his stuff...which in a previous post Merc deliberately ignored. Therefore he says he wont cite for Merc anymore. So when Merc asks for one he didn't get it. I don't blame him.


Typical merc nonsense.

TheMercenary;530646 wrote:
Unlike popular belief about me, I want him to be the most successful president eva. EVA! But I know better. Keep your eye on the ball.


Gonna call Bullshit on this. The board spam would indicate otherwise.
TheMercenary • Feb 5, 2009 9:29 pm
Griff;530952 wrote:
Typical merc nonsense.



Gonna call Bullshit on this. The board spam would indicate otherwise.

That's cool. I call bull shit on your feeling that you call bull shit on anything I post. I could give a rats ass what you think say or comment about my posts. So I guess the feeling is at the very least a common one between us.
Griff • Feb 6, 2009 6:03 am
...and yet you read and reply.

Since we're making our wishes known, please leave the Cellar.
TheMercenary • Feb 6, 2009 7:27 pm
Griff;531111 wrote:
...and yet you read and reply.

Since we're making our wishes known, please leave the Cellar.


Fuck off.
sugarpop • Feb 6, 2009 8:16 pm
TheMercenary;530496 wrote:
No.

That is way to broad. There are many reasons not to release information. So you want to see the information and they you get to tell us whether or not it would be a threat to national security? There are other people who are paid to do that. You just aren't one of them. And special interest groups are not either. There is a system in place for this process. It works.


Not any more it doesn't. Hopefully that will be restored with the new administration.
TheMercenary • Feb 6, 2009 9:56 pm
sugarpop;531443 wrote:
Not any more it doesn't. Hopefully that will be restored with the new administration.
Don't bet on it or hold your breath.
sugarpop • Feb 7, 2009 11:53 pm
TheMercenary;531469 wrote:
Don't bet on it or hold your breath.


Why? He is already doing a lot to restore the integrity of this country.
Urbane Guerrilla • Feb 12, 2009 9:53 pm
For, it seems, a very strange value of "doing a lot." I'm certainly not embarrassed to have voted for the other guy. The Repubs are doing all they can to keep the Dems from taking the bit in their teeth and running wild. If the Dems succeed in running wild, they will crash, terribly.
Redux • Feb 12, 2009 11:48 pm
Urbane Guerrilla;533886 wrote:
The Repubs are doing all they can to keep the Dems from taking the bit in their teeth and running wild. If the Dems succeed in running wild, they will crash, terribly.


You mean like the Republicans did for six years...running wild, rubber stamping everything Bush wanted, conducting virtually no Congressional oversight of the Executive Branch, giving Bush unprecedented 'war powers (warrantless wiretaps of citizens, circumventing US treaty obligations...)w/o a Congressional war powers resolution, politicizing the Dept of Justice, nearly doubling the national debt to over $9 trillion...and then crashing with a thud!

I guess we shall see if the Democrats meet that lofty standard, but people w/o an agenda, by that I mean most Americans, will probably wait beyond one month before making that judgement.

I like the new EOs on government contracting, reviewing detention policies, ensuring lawful interrogations, protecting presidential records. I like the new FOIA memorandum and guidelines. I like the action by the Dept of Interior to put a hold on oil/gas exploration leases in proximity to national parks. I like the SCHIP expansion and the Pay Equity Act. And I like the bold action on the stimulus bil, although I would have preferred it being bolder.

I like that many Americans give Obama and the Democratic Leaders in Congress high approval ratings as well:
[INDENT]Image[/INDENT]


I like that even a majority of Republicans are optimistic about Obama
[INDENT]Image[/INDENT]

But I know the public has little patience and high expectations.

And I know that Merc doesnt believe in polls. :headshake
sugarpop • Feb 13, 2009 2:54 am
Thanks Redux for pointing all that out.
TheMercenary • Feb 13, 2009 3:59 pm
OH LOOK! a Poll! :lol2:
classicman • Feb 13, 2009 6:08 pm
Redux, Do you have the actual questions to that poll? Who was defined as "leaders" Were they local, national, not specified? I'm seriously interested. Polls fascinate me. I am one of those people that answer them and surveys all the time. Problem is they mostly offer some really bad choices which virtually force an answer that is usually what the pollster or their backers wanted in the first place.
Many times I have given alternate answers as the options were not accurate enough that the pollster stops in the middle, thanks me and moves on.
I do find it strange that the congressional approval ratings nearly doubled in the last few weeks/months according to the poll you posted.
classicman • Feb 13, 2009 6:18 pm
Hmm...

I decided to look them up myself -
CONGRESS – Job Rating in national polls

The first column is .......date..app..disapp..unsure...+-

Ipsos/McClatchy...............2/6-9/09 37 59 * -22


CNN/Opinion Research........2/7-8/09 29 71 - -42


CBS.................................2/2-4/09 26 62 12 -36

FOX/Opinion Dynamics.....1/27-28/09 40 46 14 -6

FOX/Opinion Dynamics.....1/13-14/09 23 68 10 -45

NBC/Wall Street Journal....1/9-12/09 23 68 9 -45

USA Today/Gallup 1/9-11/09 19 76 5 -57

I must be looking at different data than you.
CNN/Opinion Research ..2/7-8/09.....29.....71.....-.....-42
CNN/Opinion Research 10/3-5/08.....23.....76.....1.....-53

with approval ratings consistently in the 20's over the last two polls I ail to see how suddenly the ratings are jumping into the 50's and 60's as in your poll by the same organization.
Redux • Feb 13, 2009 6:57 pm
classicman;534219 wrote:
Hmm...

I decided to look them up myself -
CONGRESS – Job Rating in national polls

The first column is .......date..app..disapp..unsure...+-

Ipsos/McClatchy...............2/6-9/09 37 59 * -22


CNN/Opinion Research........2/7-8/09 29 71 - -42


CBS.................................2/2-4/09 26 62 12 -36

FOX/Opinion Dynamics.....1/27-28/09 40 46 14 -6

FOX/Opinion Dynamics.....1/13-14/09 23 68 10 -45

NBC/Wall Street Journal....1/9-12/09 23 68 9 -45

USA Today/Gallup 1/9-11/09 19 76 5 -57

I must be looking at different data than you.
CNN/Opinion Research ..2/7-8/09.....29.....71.....-.....-42
CNN/Opinion Research 10/3-5/08.....23.....76.....1.....-53

with approval ratings consistently in the 20's over the last two polls I ail to see how suddenly the ratings are jumping into the 50's and 60's as in your poll by the same organization.


Yep...you are looking at different data.

Merc and I have been through this....polls of Congress as a whole are vastly different and have many more variables than polls of 1-2 individuals or polls of the parties.

Congress' low number as a whole (a body of 545) over the last two years are attributed to many factors:
[INDENT]some democratic voters rated Congress very low for not impeaching Bush, some republicans voters because of all the talk of impeaching Bush and holding so many oversight hearings

some democratic voters rated Congress very low for being rolled over on Iraq funding, some republicans because Democrats tried to block Iraq war funding.

some democratic voters rated Congress very low because of all the Republican filibusters in the Senate, some republican because the republicans didnt filibuster enough [/INDENT]

When you are rating a person or a party, you are generally rating an easily identified ideology and voting record. When you rate Congress as a whole, there is no single ideology or voting record.

The polls asking the public (of both parties and indys) to rate Congress by party rather than as a single body are one means of addressing some of these questions....and the term "Congressional leaders" would generally be explained by the pollsters.

Job rating - Democrats in Congress

Job rating - Republicans in Congress

Perhaps you understand the difference.....Merc doesnt.

I wont bet my house on poll numbers but results of a poll or poll trends do represent a reasonably valid snapshot of public opinion at and/or over a defined period of time.

There is a reason why both parties spending $millions on polls...it does provide that snapshot.
TheMercenary • Feb 13, 2009 9:23 pm
Bottom line, if you are going to use the most popular polls, is that Congress has had approval ratings well below Bush for over 2 years. Maybe they can ride the coat tails of Obama and gain some ground on his positive energy, but even that appears to be slipping.
TheMercenary • Feb 13, 2009 9:31 pm
Redux;534221 wrote:
I wont bet my house on poll numbers but results of a poll or poll trends do represent a reasonably valid snapshot of public opinion at and/or over a defined period of time.


False. Most of these polls are determined on the opinions of 1000 people give or take. Now given that at any given time the recent population of the United States is 305 million, what you are saying is that you believe that 0.0000327% speaks for the other 99+% of the total US. That would be false.

Was it a telephone poll? Who did they call? Who took the time to answer the questions? What is the demographics? How do you extrapolate that to 305 million people? You can't. Anyone who studies statistics knows that the poll is the weakest form of statistical measure. Straw Poll = Straw Man.
Redux • Feb 13, 2009 10:12 pm
TheMercenary;534282 wrote:
False. Most of these polls are determined on the opinions of 1000 people give or take. Now given that at any given time the recent population of the United States is 305 million, what you are saying is that you believe that 0.0000327% speaks for the other 99+% of the total US. That would be false.

Was it a telephone poll? Who did they call? Who took the time to answer the questions? What is the demographics? How do you extrapolate that to 305 million people? You can't. Anyone who studies statistics knows that the poll is the weakest form of statistical measure. Straw Poll = Straw Man.


Straw polls, like what you may find on many websites, are not scientific polls like those used by polling organizations.

In a straw poll, anyone can participate.

The credible polling organizations use representative samples to predict the larger universe of voters with a relatively small error of margin.

They are widely accepted in politics, economics, sociology, statistics, and any field of research.

Objective observers know the difference.
Urbane Guerrilla • Feb 13, 2009 10:18 pm
Redux;533923 wrote:
You mean like the Republicans did for six years...running wild, rubber stamping everything Bush wanted,


Running wild? Not at all: discommoding the Left is hardly "running wild" among wise persons. The "rubber stamping" was bipartisan, I'll have you recall and henceforth keep in mind. Keep your memory good, or I'm likely to embarrass you.

giving Bush unprecedented 'war powers' (warrantless wiretaps of citizens, circumventing US treaty obligations...)w/o a Congressional war powers resolution,


Trying to tell somebody who remembers the Congress did authorize the President to do whatever he had to to win the war, and did authorize the President to prosecute the conflict that matters were otherwise, doesn't say a lot for your understanding of recent history, Redux. See how very badly served hewing to liberal-left opinion leaves you? Congress' resolution did tell GWB "go to it." Nobody responsible or thoughtful (in other words, the left-liberals aren't in the picture) says otherwise.

The war powers are by no means "unprecedented." Compared to war powers during declared states of war, the Bush Admininstration's are somewhat reduced -- check what Roosevelt did with strikers during WW2. Granted, what we saw was a try at assuming war powers without the legal aegis of a Congressional declaration of war, which would have completely smoothed the President's road. Those exact war powers are still held by the Obama Presidency, by the way.

politicizing the Dept of Justice,


Here you seem to be mistaking the Bush Administration for its unfortunate predecessor. Watch your sources -- the Left is full of shitheads who assume their audience either has always had bad memories -- or convenient Memory Holes.

nearly doubling the national debt to over $9 trillion


A fiscal sin that is totally bipartisan, so I say you're throwing a null at me. Besides which, the present Administration is on track to double that nine trillion, no? Bipartisan idiocy, helloooo... no wonder I profess a third party. One that hasn't had a chance to run the deficit up or down.

I guess we shall see if the Democrats meet that lofty standard, but people w/o an agenda, by that I mean most Americans, will probably wait beyond one month before making that judgement.


We are gathering data. These data will be reflected in the judgement we make -- now, or ninety days from now. I'm still quite without reasons to trust the Democratic Party.

The Republicans did things I wanted done, that I really wanted done, which I think will ring down the decades as heroic, wise things. The Democrats haven't managed that in any particular since 1991, and I think the last time I voted for a Democratic candidate might have been well before that year. That's a long time for a national party to be consigned to the "Idiots" box.
Redux • Feb 13, 2009 10:25 pm
Urbane Guerrilla;534302 wrote:
Running wild? Not at all: discommoding the Left is hardly "running wild" among wise persons. The "rubber stamping" was bipartisan, I'll have you recall and henceforth keep in mind. Keep your memory good, or I'm likely to embarrass you.

Feel free to embarrass me by posting the roll call votes on the initia lPatriot Act or the Iraq war AUMF. I dont think a majority of Democrats voted for either. You might even add the Bush $1.5 trillion tax cuts that mostly benefited the top wage earners.

Trying to tell somebody who remembers the Congress did authorize the President to do whatever he had to to win the war, and did authorize the President to prosecute the conflict that matters were otherwise, doesn't say a lot for your understanding of recent history, Redux. See how very badly served hewing to liberal-left opinion leaves you? Congress' resolution did tell GWB "go to it." Nobody responsible or thoughtful (in other words, the left-liberals aren't in the picture) says otherwise.

Please read the Authorization of Use of Military Force...it does not give the president the authority to do "whatever he had to to win the war" which is how it differs from a Congressional "war powers" resolution. In fact, there were two AUMFs - one immediately following 9/11 (wide bi-partisan support) and a second to authorize the invasion of Iraq (not as bi-partisan).

The war powers are by no means "unprecedented." Compared to war powers during declared states of war, the Bush Admininstration's are somewhat reduced -- check what Roosevelt did with strikers during WW2. Granted, what we saw was a try at assuming war powers without the legal aegis of a Congressional declaration of war, which would have completely smoothed the President's road. Those exact war powers are still held by the Obama Presidency, by the way.

The difference that you fail to recognize from previous presidents (FDR). Congress declared war with a "war powers resolution". They did not for Bush's "war on terrorism"....there was no Congressionsal "declared state of war" as in WW II.

Many (most?) constitutional scholars, conservative and liberal, would suggest that an AUMF is not equal to a War Powers Resolution or Declaration of War.

Next- politicization of the Department of Justice
Here you seem to be mistaking the Bush Administration for its unfortunate predecessor. Watch your sources -- the Left is full of shitheads who assume their audience either has always had bad memories -- or convenient Memory Holes.

Please read the latest report (one of several) by Bush's own DoJ Inspector General (a liberal shithead?) on the politicization of the Dept of Justice over the last eight years. (Report slams politicized hiring process at DoJ) (DoJ Internal Report - pdf)
Redux • Feb 13, 2009 10:50 pm
UG...I am still waiting for you to explain your Republicans = integrity assertion in another discussion in light of what I posted in response.
Redux;531504 wrote:
UG...I suggest you start here:

A report on corruption investigations of members of the 109th Congress..the last Republican majority Congress:
[INDENT]Below is a rundown of all 21 lawmakers, current and former. Ten of them are no longer in office. Investigations of seven are part of the Abramoff investigation. Seventeen are Republicans, four are Democrats.

http://www.propublica.org/article/po...gation-wrap-up[/INDENT]

You might also want to read about the K Street project.

The Grover Norquist/Tom DeLay/Karl Rove plan of influence peddling with the hope of creating a permanent Republican majority.

Kinda backfired on them after Abramoff's arrest and Tom DeLay's resignation from Congress under an ethical cloud.


You went silent after that...perhaps you were embarrassed?
TheMercenary • Feb 14, 2009 9:50 am
Redux;534300 wrote:

They are widely accepted in politics, economics, sociology, statistics, and any field of research.

Objective observers know the difference.
Fail. Widely known as the weakest forms of statistical measure.
Redux • Feb 14, 2009 9:59 am
TheMercenary;534395 wrote:
Fail. Widely known as the weakest forms of statistical measure.


Cite please! From a reputable source!

That polling using random samples to reflect the larger universe, along with including margins of error, and review of questions for bias, have little validity.

Sorry, but you are blowing smoke out of your ass.
TheMercenary • Feb 14, 2009 10:19 am
Redux;534398 wrote:
Cite please! From a reputable source!

That polling using random samples to reflect the larger universe, along with including margins of error, and review of questions for bias, have little validity.

Sorry, but you are blowing smoke out of your ass.
Anyone who hangs much validity on polls is the smoke coming out of my ass. So far you have not proven a damm thing.
Redux • Feb 14, 2009 10:23 am
TheMercenary;534395 wrote:
Fail. Widely known as the weakest forms of statistical measure.


Cite please....from a reputable source!

You might start with this publication from the American Statistical Association:
What is a Survey

Today the word "survey" is used most often to describe a method of gathering information from a sample of individuals. This "sample" is usually just a fraction of the population being studied...

In a bona fide survey, the sample is not selected haphazardly or only from persons who volunteer to participate. It is scientifically chosen so that each person in the population will have a measurable chance of selection. This way, the results can be reliably projected from the sample to the larger population...

...When it is realized that a properly selected sample of only 1,000 individuals can reflect various characteristics of the total population, it is easy to appreciate the value of using surveys to make informed decisions in a complex society such as ours. Surveys provide a speedy and economical means of determining facts about our economy and about people's knowledge, attitudes, beliefs, expectations, and behaviors...

http://www.whatisasurvey.info/


National polling organizations like Gallup, Harris, Zogby, etc have the policies and practices in place to ensure that they meet or surpass the accepted standards of reliability....or they would be out of business very quickly.

Polls you see on the Drudge, CNN.com, etc where anyone can click and submit have no standards.
TGRR • Feb 14, 2009 11:31 am
TheMercenary;534395 wrote:
Fail. Widely known as the weakest forms of statistical measure.


Keep on digging. You'll get out of that hole someday.
TheMercenary • Feb 14, 2009 11:22 pm
Recognizing the Impact of Statistics in Polls
A survey is an instrument that collects data through questions and answers and is used to gather information about the opinions, behaviors, demographics, lifestyles, and other reportable characteristics of the population of interest. What's the difference between a poll and a survey? Statisticians don't make a clear distinction between the two, but what people call a poll is typically a short survey containing only a few questions (maybe that's how researchers get more people to respond — they call it a poll rather than a survey!). But for all intents and purposes, surveys and polls are the same thing.

You come into contact with surveys and their results on a daily basis. Surveys even have their own television program: The game show Family Feud is completely based on surveys and the ability of the contestants to list the top answers that people provided on a survey. Contestants on this show must correctly identify the answers provided by respondents to survey questions such as, "Name an animal you may see at the zoo" or "Name a famous person named John."

Compared to other types of studies, such as medical experiments, surveys are relatively easy to conduct and aren't as expensive to carry out. They provide quick results that can often make interesting headlines in newspapers or eye-catching stories in magazines. People connect with surveys because they feel that survey results represent the opinions of people just like themselves (even though they may never have been asked to participate in a survey). And many people enjoy seeing how other people feel, what they do, where they go, and what they care about. Looking at survey results makes people feel connected with a bigger group, somehow. That's what pollsters (the people who conduct surveys) bank on, and that's why they spend so much time doing surveys and polls and reporting the results of this research.

Getting to the source
Who conducts surveys these days? Pretty much anyone and everyone who has a question to ask. Some of the groups that conduct polls and report the results include:

News organizations (for example, ABC News, CNN, Reuters)
Political parties (those in office and those trying to get into office)
Professional polling organizations (such as The Gallup Organization, The Harris Poll, Zogby International, and so on)
Representatives of magazines, TV shows, and radio programs
Professional organizations (such as the American Medical Association, which often conducts surveys of its membership)
Special-interest groups (such as the National Rifle Association)
Academic researchers (who conduct studies on a huge range of topics)
The U.S. government (which conducts the American Community Survey, the Crime Victimization Survey, and numerous other surveys through the Census Bureau)
Joe Public (who can easily conduct his own survey on the Internet)
Not everyone who conducts a poll is legitimate and trustworthy, so be sure to check the source of any survey in which you're asked to participate and for which you're given results. Groups that have a special interest in the results should either hire an independent organization to conduct (or at least to review) the survey, or they should offer copies of the survey questions to the public. Groups should also discuss in detail how the survey was designed and conducted, so that you can make an informed decision about the credibility of the results.

Surveying what's hot
The topics of many surveys are driven by current events, issues, and areas of interest; after all, timeliness and relevance to the public are two of the most attractive qualities of any survey. Here are just a few examples of some of the subjects being brought to the surface by today's surveys, along with some of the results being reported:

Does celebrity activism influence the political opinions of the American public? (Over 90% of the American public says no, according to CBS News.)
What percentage of Americans have dated someone online? (Only 6% of unmarried Internet users, according to CBS News.)
Is pain something that lots of Americans have to deal with? (According to CBS News, three-quarters of people under 50 suffer pain often or at least some of the time.)
How many people surf the Web to find health-related information? (About 98 million, according to The Harris Poll.)
What's the current level of investor optimism? (According to a survey by The Gallup Organization, it should be called investor pessimism.)
What was the worst car of the millennium? (The Yugo, according to listeners of the NPR radio show Car Talk.)
When you read the preceding survey results, do you find yourself thinking about what the results mean to you, rather than first asking yourself whether the results are valid? Some of the preceding survey results are more valid and accurate than others, and you should think about whether to believe the results first, before accepting them without question.

Making an impact on lives
Whereas some surveys are fun to look at and think about, other surveys can have a direct impact on your life or your workplace. These life-decision surveys need to be closely scrutinized before action is taken or important decisions are made. Surveys at this level can cause politicians to change or create new laws, motivate researchers to work on the latest problems, encourage manufacturers to invent new products or change business policies and practices, and influence people's behavior and ways of thinking. The following are some examples of recent survey results that can impact you:

Teens drive under the influence: A recent Reuters survey of 1,119 teenagers in Ontario, Canada, from grades 7 through 13 found that, at some point during the previous year, 15% of them had driven a car after consuming at least two drinks.
Children's health care suffers: A survey of 400 pediatricians by the Children's National Medical Center in Washington, D.C., reported that pediatricians spend, on average, only 8 to 12 minutes with each patient.
Crimes go unreported: According to the U.S. Bureau of Justice 2001 Crime Victimization Survey, only 49.4% of violent crimes were reported to police. The reasons victims gave for not reporting crimes to the police are listed in Table 1.

http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/recognizing-the-impact-of-statistics-in-polls.html

Follow the links:

http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/generalizing-statistical-results-to-the-entire-pop.html

http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/summarizing-categorical-data-in-statistics.html
TheMercenary • Feb 14, 2009 11:31 pm
Page 8

http://books.google.com/books?id=il91kL48hbsC&pg=RA3-PA8&lpg=RA3-PA8&dq=weakest+form+of+statistics+survey&source=web&ots=0o5LJLIlXH&sig=OXirsDGrZjYHjE3OBTCzWnI4zgY&hl=en&ei=LJqXScL4DIL-yAXK_rCYCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=7&ct=result#PRA3-PA8,M1
TheMercenary • Feb 14, 2009 11:33 pm
Surveys tend to be weak on validity and strong on reliability. The artificiality of the survey format puts a strain on validity. Since people's real feelings are hard to grasp in terms of such dichotomies as "agree/disagree," "support/oppose," "like/dislike," etc., these are only approximate indicators of what we have in mind when we create the questions. Reliability, on the other hand, is a clearer matter. Survey research presents all subjects with a standardized stimulus, and so goes a long way toward eliminating unreliability in the researcher's observations. Careful wording, format, content, etc. can reduce significantly the subject's own unreliability.

http://writing.colostate.edu/guides/research/survey/com2d2.cfm
TheMercenary • Feb 14, 2009 11:37 pm
How Many Subjects Do I Need for a Statistically Valid Survey?

by Daryle Gardner-Bonneau, Ph.D.
Office of Research
Michigan State University/Kalamazoo Center for Medical Studies
Reprinted from Usability Interface, Vol 5, No. 1, July 1998

Beware of people who give quick, pat answers in response to the question - "I’m doing a survey. How many subjects do I need?" They probably haven’t a clue as to what they’re talking about.

There aren’t any valid quick answers to this question. I work in the medical domain and advise faculty/residents/medical students on sample size determination for survey research studies all the time because, in medicine, survey results are often discounted and are not publishable unless you can support/validate the decision you made regarding sample size. We do this through power analysis, and except for the simplest power analyses, it's good to have the advice and assistance of a statistician.

That said, I can tell you how we generally approach the problem for surveys and what information a statistician needs to do a power analysis to determine sample size.

Usually, surveys involve a number of hypotheses. You do a power analysis and get a sample size estimate with respect to each hypothesis, but I usually ask folks to give me the two or three most important survey questions or, more specifically, hypotheses, they want to explore. We do power analyses for those, get a sample size estimate for each one, and from there make a decision as to the sample size for the survey as a whole.

Here's an example to give you some idea of what your statistician needs to know to determine the sample size for a survey. Let's say you're looking for a difference in patient satisfaction between two departments in a hospital - obstetrics and cardiology - and in your survey patients are asked to rate their satisfaction on a scale from 1 to 100. To determine how many patients to sample, the statistician needs information/estimates with respect to the following questions:

1. What do you consider an "important" difference in satisfaction ratings that you'd like to be able to detect between the two departments (e.g., 10 points? 20 points?)?

2. What do you think the variability is in satisfaction ratings?
Note: This might be a tough question to answer, and in the absence of any data you may have to guess. But what you might use, for example, is the standard deviation of ratings in the last survey of patient satisfaction you did, unless there was something more specific available.

3. What is, in your mind, an acceptable probability of an alpha error - an alpha error meaning that you will see a statistically significant difference in the samples, when no difference actually exists in the populations? This is often set by convention at .05.

4. Similarly, what is an acceptable probability for a beta error - that you may NOT find a statistically significant difference between the samples when there actually is a difference in the populations? This is also often estimated by convention as .20, .15, or .10, the first of these being the most common.

If you can answer these four questions, the statistician can then estimate the number of obstetrics and cardiology patients you need to sample. Sometimes, when we're really "iffy" on the answer to a question, we'll run several power analyses, say, with different values for the alpha, beta, and/or the variability estimates just to see how these variables affect the final result (i.e., the sample size estimate). This can be an especially useful exercise when there are tradeoffs that must be considered (e.g., when the cost per survey administered is significant).

One word of caution: The estimate given to you by the statistician is the number of subjects from whom you need valid data. This number is going to be less than the number of people you actually approach with the survey, because some will fail to respond and some may respond inappropriately and their data will not be usable. Referring to the example above, if the statistician tells you that you’ll need 65 cardiology patients and 65 obstetrics patients, and you know, based on past experience, that the non-respondent rate is 25%, you want to send your survey to 88 cardiology patients and 88 obstetrics patients in order to receive 65 responses from each group. Hopefully, if your survey is well-designed, all of the responses you receive will be valid...but that’s another issue.

The rationale is pretty much the same for any power analysis, though I've given you a fairly straightforward and simple example. The calculations can get "hairy" once you have more than two comparison groups, for example, but there are computer programs to help with that, and statisticians generally know this area pretty well.

The best source of information about power analysis and sample size estimation is Jacob Cohen’s book, Statistical Power Analysis for the Behavioral Sciences (Erlbaum). First published in 1969, revised, and published again in a second edition in 1988, this book is still considered the "Bible" among those who do power analysis. A short, highly readable, basic treatment of the subject, which may suffice nicely for the simpler power analysis problems, is found in the book, How Many Subjects? by Helena C. Kraemer and Sue Thiemann (Sage Publications, 1987). Finally, for those who feel confident doing their own power analyses without the guidance of a statistician, there is some excellent software available. nQuery Advisor, from Statistical Solutions Ltd., does a power analysis for almost any research design situation. It costs several hundred dollars, but is certainly worth the price for those who must do these analyses quite often. For more information about nQuery Advisor, contact the company’s Boston office at 1-800-262-1171, or visit their web site (http://www.statsolusa.com).

http://www.stcsig.org/usability/newsletter/9807-howmanysubjects.html
TheMercenary • Feb 14, 2009 11:43 pm
Disadvantage of the online survey

Disadvantages include the problem of being unable to accurately monitor the people completing the survey. Paper based surveys tend to be more controlled in that the cohort for the survey is normally invited to participate in the research after which time the instrument sent to them to complete. On the other hand, an online survey is potentially available to anyone who has access to a particular internet site. The online survey also has the disadvantage in that it can only be completed by those people who have computer access, although with increasing internet availability this is not such an issue as in the past. Further, some online surveys may not be appropriate when specific cohorts of respondents are required, for example; in surveying lower socio-economic groups or geographically isolated communities. There is also the assumption that people who complete online surveys have a certainly level of computer proficiency and confidence in being able to firstly locate the required web site and then the skills to complete it. Another potential problem lies is identifying an appropriate cohort and the most appropriate way to advise respondents on how to complete it. In these days of spam email people can become cynical about 'another survey' and therefore disregard it, potentially biasing the results obtained.

http://ausweb.scu.edu.au/aw04/papers/refereed/sefton/paper.html

For the record I never answer truthfully in either on-line polls or telephone polls.
TheMercenary • Feb 14, 2009 11:46 pm
The World of Statistics is not so Cut and Dry
People are bombarded by statistics on a daily basis and many fall for them, hook, line and sinker. Why? Because most people do not understand how statistics work.

Funny thing about statistics...they are usually very biased, slanted or give a poor representation of the real world and most people's situations.

See, I took a few statistics classes in college and they taught us some interesting things...

Statistics LIE

People LIE about statistics

Statistics are taken from a SAMPLE demographic of usually 1200 people (and there are how many people in the US??? A little disproportionate, don't ya think?)

There are books about how to lie with statistics, including the book "How to Lie with Statistics" (Darrell Huff)

Statistics take for granted that there is a "typical" price or behavior, but, remember, it is out of the SAMPLE of 1,200 - does it apply to you? You actually have less than a 3% chance that it does (based on US population of 301,139,947 as supplied by CIA World Fact Book - July 2007)

Statistics often leave out pertinent information

For instance, a scholarly journal in 1995 stated that "every year since 1950 the number of American children gunned down has doubled." (The author claimed that the statistic came from the Children's Defense Fund.)

Hmmm, let us take that into consideration for a moment. Suppose just 1 child was gunned down in 1950. In 1951, the number of children gunned down would have been 2. In 1952, the number would have been 4 (remember, we are doubling!) and so on. Well, by 1965, it would have been 32,768 children gunned down, but in 1965, the FBI only identified 9,960 criminal homicides in all of the US, including adult and child victims combined. To jump to the chase, by 1995, when this article was published, the annual number of children gunned down would have been more than 35 trillion. Where are all of these extra children? And why haven't we heard of this mass gunning down of children that escalates so exponentially?

Because it is a part of flawed statistics and an assertion to my point that people use statistics to twist "facts" to suit their soap box rally or rant at the time. It is usually very weak when you look at the specifics - and this includes governmental and non profit statistics.

In truth, the Children's Defense Fund did indeed publish a statistic regarding children being gunned down. In The State of America's Children Yearbook - 1994, it was stated, "The number of American children killed each year by guns has doubled since 1950."

Difference in wording equals different meaning. It is just a matter of twisting the statistics to suit your needs.

So, how do you make sure that YOU do not fall for faulty statistics?

1. Be wary of statistics spouters who fail to direct you to the exact location where you can view the statistics for yourself. (book, article, journal, link)

2. READ the fine print that explains the sample (for polls and certain statistics) and situation, including environment, geographical region, ages, etc.

3. Don't believe everything that you read. If your source does not have information to divulge the conditions of the survey or poll, does not provide a link to how the poll or survey was conducted or other pertinent information that allows you to discern the validity of the poll or survey, disregard it as bunk.

4. Ask these questions:

Where did the data originate from?

Who conducted the survey?

Does the administrator of the survey have an ulterior motive for slanting the results in a particular direction?

How was the data collected?

What questions were asked?

How were the questions asked?

Who asked the questions?

5. You should be careful of comparisons. When two things happen at the same time, it does not mean that the two things are necessarily related. This is basic logic, but many people who are not skilled in logic and statistics rush to put, what they erroneously think, are two and two together. It ain't equaling four, that is for sure! Many people use this slanting of information to "prove" their point. Politicians are famous for this, but people who are desperately grasping at straws to substantiate an argument are very guilty of it as well.

6. Watch for numbers that are taken out of context. Affectionately referred to as "cherry picking," this slanting refers to adjusting the analysis so that it concentrates solely on the data that supports a specific claim and ignores or shuts out everything else. In other words, certain "facts" that suit the person's claim are "cherry picked" or selected while other pertinent information is swept under the rug.

One of the primary things that statistics will teach us is that there are no averages. If 50% of pet owners are responsible, then 50% of pet owners must be irresponsible. It does not help to change the definition, there must always be a population that is 50% below and that is substantiated by bell curve graphs.

This, in turn leads us to the next issue where people have problems with interpreting statistics. They want to make the statistics fit the normal distribution. However, this is significantly flawed because there are non-normal distributions. So what happens is that the statistics that are used for normal distributions are usually not appropriate for distributions that are blatantly non-normal.

Finally, most people do not understand the terminology behind statistics. They mistakenly assume that the term "mean" means the same as "average." This is inherently wrong. Mean is a mathematical term while the word average is used to describe a person or data item. In mathematics, however, average means "a number that typifies a set of numbers of which it is a function." When used in the mathematical context (and the context in which it is used when referring to statistics), average can mean "mean," "median" or "mode."

So, what do these terms mean?

Mean - a number the typifies a set of numbers

Median - the middle value of a distribution

Mode - the value or item occurring most frequently in a series of observations or statistical data

These two examples will aid in understanding this:

Set 1

2, 5, 5 6, 9, 12, 13

Mean - 7.71 (typifies the set - add the numbers, divide by 7)

Median - 6 (is the number directly in the middle of the distribution)

Mode -5 (occurs most frequently in the set)

Set 2

4, 5, 5, 5, 8, 12, 86

Mean - 17.857

Median - 5

Mode - 5

Mark Twain said, "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics." Numbers are provocative and have a certain power, but in the wrong, uneducated hands are nothing more than a mess. Even accurate statistics can be used to try to strengthen inaccurate arguments. And honesty and accuracy is therefore compromised.

http://hubpages.com/hub/Understanding_Statistics
TheMercenary • Feb 14, 2009 11:47 pm
Any Poll Can Be Manipulated To Support An Agenda
by Ed Garvey

There are lies, damned lies and then there are statistics. That old saw comes to mind every time I hear about another poll. Polls have become a wonderful substitute for serious analysis of current events. Who cares about social justice, women's rights, tuition rates or civil liberties if news people can report the percentage of the American people on one side or the other? Poll results are almost as compelling as crime on the late news.
Even more interesting, those reporting on the poll results never spend a minute telling the audience about the bias of the group releasing the poll, their experience or track record or how they are being used. Polls have become an incredibly effective weapon in the hands of spin doctors. If they can show that a big majority supports their position, the media need only report that the verdict is in, the results are clear and there is no need to examine the underlying premise. Bush wins Florida.

And polls taken privately guide our elected leaders. That is a certainty. Bill Clinton never took a position without hearing from his pollster and Bush is worse. The motto of Al From and his Democratic Leadership Council is to ride with the majority on all issues. "Why fight it?" is their guiding principle. If the majority of the nation supports NAFTA, get behind it.

And so it goes. Polls guide politicians and polls make the radio and television reporter's job easy. They are the modern-day oracle at Delphi, the elders discussing great issues in the temple, or political parties adopting and following platforms. (Ah, if Socrates had only listened to his pollster.) No need for a static party platform. After all, if a plank is adopted in June, public opinion could change by August so why get stuck with an old poll?

Knowing the significance of polls, those in power use their ideological and economic partners to shape opinion in advance of a poll to help pass legislation or detain people who don't look like the majority. Most polls don't just "happen." They are issued by some group with an ax to grind. When do they take the poll and when do they release it? Are there any rules? Will the right-wing Bradley Foundation front calling itself the Policy Institute issue poll results showing that the vast majority of Wisconsinites oppose school vouchers for religious schools? Hardly, when the now-departed Michael Joyce and his compliant board gave millions in support of this privatization effort. The institute releases results only when they support its agenda.

If the institute finds that time after time the majority opposes vouchers, then it will ask about the failures of public schools, thereby advancing the agenda through the back door. Then the "nonprofit Wisconsin Policy Institute" releases a poll showing that an alarming number of citizens are unhappy with public schools. What to do? To get started, how about an experiment with vouchers in Milwaukee for poor African-American children? Ease people into this privatization effort and before they wake up, public schools will be reserved for those very poor African-American kids used to justify their efforts. It is that simple.

What questions are asked? Is the University of Wisconsin School of Journalism contacted? Of course not. Independent experts are not asked for advice because a poll is not about objective information, it is about propaganda.

Polls have become as dangerous as 30-second advertising spots for candidates. Now, 30-second spots are used to "educate" the electorate based on private polls that inform the perpetrator which buttons to push to move large numbers of people to one side of an issue. Then a later poll can be released showing the new opinion and thus convincing the people that the leaders are following them. How local newscasters will respond is a given.

All any group with an agenda has to do is make sure it gets the results right. But that's easy. If it crafts the message to get the desired response and fails, it has three choices. Kill the results, release altered figures, or go back to more commercials to move the public like Pavlov's dogs to the "correct" position.

It is almost impossible to listen to radio or television without having the incredible message driven into one's brain that 80 percent (or is it 90 percent?) of the American people agree with John Ashcroft's plan to eliminate the Sixth Amendment right to an attorney, to eliminate the Fourth Amendment right against unreasonable search and seizure, and to hold people who look different from Laura and W incommunicado for weeks even after a judge finds there is no evidence against them. We are told day in and day out that there should be no presumption of innocence and that public trials are too messy when fighting the modern day communists called terrorists.

None of the media finds out who asked what questions to whom. No one asks for the underlying data to back up the assertions. No one asks or ever learns how many polls were taken with the results remaining silent. And all this before the fundamental question: "Suppose 80 percent believe that the Bill of Rights should be eliminated. Is that all you need to report or might we discuss, for a moment, what those rights were intended to protect?"

Had Lincoln taken a poll before issuing the Emancipation Proclamation, or had George Washington asked about the percentage of colonists who would be willing to take up arms, or had Martin Luther King Jr. asked what percentage of the American people supported direct action in opposition to segregation laws, we would be a much different nation. John Ashcroft recently declared, "To those who scare peace-loving people with phantoms of lost liberty, my message is this: Your tactics only aid terrorists." To those elected officials who were neither laughing out loud nor silently crying when Ashcroft spoke those words, I say, forget the polls and find your moral compass.

To the media: Stop telling us what we think. Start explaining why we have the Bill of Rights.

http://www.commondreams.org/views01/1212-05.htm
TheMercenary • Feb 14, 2009 11:49 pm
HOW POLLS ARE MANIPULATED
Filed under: Media, blogging — admin @ 11:14 am
by Simon Owens

During the Republican National Convention, NOW, a PBS weekly TV news magazine, posted an unscientific poll on its website asking viewers to vote on whether they thought vice presidential nominee Sarah Palin was qualified for the position. Like most polls the show posts every week, it was taken down from the front page and replaced by a new one after gathering a few thousand votes.

But in the weeks after it was removed, someone unearthed the still-present URL for the poll and linked to it at the conservative website, Free Republic. The site has become famous for sending hordes of readers to crash unscientific online polls, so much so that the act of doing so has been termed “freeping.” In this particular instance, members of the Free Republic felt that the poll showed a sign of bias, and the poster linked to it to “provide them with a result they did not expect.”

“Send this email to every non-liberal you know,” the person wrote. “Let’s get some balance into this survey group. This is the easiest vote you will ever make. It takes literally two seconds.”

Predictably, the numbers on the poll in favor of Palin began to move up, but during the freep several liberal websites got wind of it. Typical of the blogosphere, the poll became a link-fest version of tug-of-war. Close to a hundred bloggers linked to it and liberals and conservatives began forwarding email chains to their friends asking them to vote (I actually received one of these emails less than an hour before I sat down to begin writing this article).

One of the bloggers who eventually linked to the poll was PZ Myers (pictured). An associate professor of biology at the University of Minnesota-Morris, Myers is arguably the most popular atheist and science blogger on the Net. His blog, Pharyngula, is published as part of the Science Blog network (owned by Seed Media Group) and averages more than 50,000 readers a day. In recent months, he and a small group of other atheist bloggers have begun a constant and often-successful campaign to crash online unscientific polls, usually to counterbalance or push back against what they see as either anti-science or overly-dogmatic beliefs.

After Myers finds a poll dealing with religion or science on a news website, he’ll provide a link to the site along with a pithy or mocking comment. “The Edmonton Sun asks, ‘Should God be left out of the University of Alberta’s convocation speech?’” he noted in one such post recently. “I should think so. They should also leave Odin, Zeus, and the Tooth Fairy out of it, unless it’s to make a joke. Surprisingly, though, 67% of the respondents disagree with me so far. Will that have changed when I wake up in the morning, I wonder…?”

Why Poll Crash?
I spoke to the science blogger, and Myers told me that when he links to a poll he can typically swing the results by 10,000 to 20,000 votes in a particular direction. Indeed, within an hour after he linked to the Sun’s poll, the results went from 67 percent of the respondents saying “no” to 91 percent “yes.” Though he has participated in poll crashes dating back to over a year ago, he has only begun conducting them on a semi-daily basis within the last month and a half.

“It’s a very popular thing with some people because they can flex a little itty bitty muscle, and a group going there and doing something shows we have some clout, a clout in expressing an opinion,” Myers said. “There have been a couple places where the polls are so poorly done and so easily manipulated, and people go nuts; they write a script and send in hundreds of thousands of votes. Which is kind of cheating, but the whole point is that these polls are silly and useless anyway.”

The bloggers’ motivation in linking to these polls, he said, was, in essence, to delegitimize them. Because these polls are unscientific and therefore largely biased toward the demographic of the website on which they’re posted, Myers argued that poll crashing makes it harder for people to use the polls simply to reaffirm their own biases.

“For instance, if I put a poll on my blog asking whether evolution is true, everyone would say ‘yes’ with just a few outliers,” he explained. “If you put it on something like [Christian conservative group] Focus on the Family, everyone there will say ‘no.’ So the point is to show that these are highly prejudicial polls, they’re sampling unscientifically, and they’re really kind of worthless. And you can’t use those results to say anything at all. I mean, what can you say about such a poll?”

But the inaccurate data isn’t the only problem that Myers has with these polls; he also detests the poor construction of many poll questions and the limited answer choices given. It’s not uncommon for him to link to a poll while issuing the caveat that — due to the perceived inanity of the question or answers — he doesn’t know which choice his readers should pick.

In speaking to Myers, I learned that his averseness to these polls sometimes carries over to even their scientific counterparts. He argued, as have others, that media coverage of elections is much too poll-obsessed and that covering a campaign in such a way perpetuates misconceptions about why voters should choose a particular candidate.

“If you look at the major networks’ coverage of the election, for instance, what you find is that they turn it into a horse race,” he said. “All they report is who’s ahead, who’s behind and by how much. It is distracting and detracts from the coverage of the actual issues. So that’s another reason to get in there and disrupt these polls: it’s because the polls really don’t matter. You shouldn’t vote on whether someone is ahead or not. What you should be voting for is whether they have policies that you agree with.”

Measuring Enthusiasm
I spoke to a few of the people responsible for publishing polls that Myers had crashed, and surprisingly there were no bitter feelings toward bloggers who deliberately try to skewer their results. In fact, both the people I interviewed said they welcomed such online participation. They argued that instances of poll crashes allowed them to gauge the level of enthusiasm for a particular issue.

Joel Schwartzbert, the director for new media for NOW, outright rejected the notion that the poll question on the website — whether Sarah Palin was qualified to be vice president — was somehow biased or leading. When the news magazine formulates each week’s poll question, he said, it bases it on a pressing issue that has become part of the national conversation. In this particular instance, there had been a sizable amount of discussion during the Republican National Convention over Palin’s qualifications for the position.

“As an example, during the Democratic convention, we asked people if they thought the party is unified,” he told me. “So we did not pull this issue out of a vacuum, it was the most relevant and talked-about issue. When the convention ended, that poll was retired. We don’t link to old polls, nor do we have an archive of old polls. So what people did was they found that poll sort of drifting in the vast outer space of the Internet, and looking at the source code found the URL, and that’s what became viral. It did not even begin to become viral until it was formerly retired on our website.”

To date, more than 50 million votes have been registered on the poll, both from constant freeping and from bots running rampant and falsely inflating the numbers. Eventually, NOW changed the poll to track a user’s cookie so they could only vote one time per computer.

Because of this one poll, Schwartzbert said, both NOW and PBS as a whole have experienced traffic numbers that far surpassed previous viewership records by wide margins. And in attracting all that traffic, they were able to drive readers to other NOW content linked at the bottom of the Palin poll. In this respect, the poll was able to engage the online community and expose a much larger audience to more reputable and scientific information.

I asked the new media director about the unscientific nature of such polling and whether it could be misleading in displaying public opinion.

“I don’t find any online polls to be accurate enough to be worthy of public broadcast,” Schwartzbert said. “We do not announce these poll results on air. If we were going to announce them on air you can be assured that it’d be a scientific poll that’d be very official. We don’t offer up these results to measure scientifically any demographics. The point of these polls and other polls is so that people can register their vote…And the poll engine has a way to generate enough excitement to look at our investigative reports, which are still very thoroughly vetted and meticulously fact checked and very scientific.”

Schwartzbert said that people like polls in the same way that they like memes and lists, and part of using new media is understanding that “these other devices are a way to get people to come to your table. But you want to rely on your bread and butter, and, in our case, the video investigations are the meat of what we do, and what best serves our mission. So the poll is a way for people to express themselves and bring people to our larger core mission, which is to reveal what’s going on in our democracy.”

http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=3056
TheMercenary • Feb 14, 2009 11:51 pm
Herald pulls manipulated poll

By Brent Curtis Rutland Herald - Published: September 30, 2004


RUTLAND — Editors at the Rutland Herald pulled an online poll Monday night after a local radio talk show host urged his listeners to skew the results.

On Saturday, the Herald posted the question "Who is your likely choice for governor in the Nov. 2 vote?" The poll included the top four candidates running for that office — Republican Gov. James Douglas, Democrat Peter Clavelle, Liberty Union candidate Peter Diamondstone and Libertarian Hardy Machia. The informal poll was intended to remain posted at www.rutlandherald.com until Friday.

Editors at the Herald decided to remove the poll Monday night after Tim Philbin, host of "On the Air with Tim Philbin," told his listeners that the poll was biased and described how they could skew the results by voting more than once.

Philbin, who often discusses politics on his morning show broadcast by WSYB in Rutland, said he was appalled to check the poll Monday to find that Clavelle had the lead after about 450 people had voted.

"The point is, please don't tell me that represents reality," Philbin said after his show Tuesday. "That's called manufactured news."

Philbin said the unscientific poll was a sham because it flew in the face of other polls he has seen this election year that show Douglas in a commanding lead.

He said he suspected the newspaper's reason for posting the poll was to shape public opinion, not reflect it.

"If they have a poll that can be manipulated, the results of which should represent reality, you can manipulate reality to represent what the press wants," Philbin said.

To prove his point, he told his listeners how to effectively stuff the ballot box.

Hours after his radio show Monday, the number of votes cast on the Web site climbed from about 450 to 1,003.

After the editorial staff at the newspaper heard about Philbin's broadcast, the decision was made to pull the plug on the poll Monday night.

"We ended the poll when we realized it had been rigged," city editor John Dolan said Tuesday. "We assumed something like this could happen in small amounts, but not this kind of organized rigging."

Dolan said the decision to withdraw the poll was not a partisan issue. He said the results would have been removed no matter which candidate's results were rigged.

While the online poll doesn't follow standard polling methods, Dolan said the results — available on the Web site and in the newspaper's Street Talk section — provided readers with a picture of public opinion and an opportunity to participate in the process.

"It's valuable because it lets people participate willingly instead of waiting to be called and asked," he said. "And while the results are not scientifically accurate, they give some indication of what the community is thinking."

Dolan also pointed out that Philbin conducts his own informal polls during his two-hour radio show.

"It's interesting to note that today, Mr. Philbin boasted about his prank and then spent the remaining hour of his show conducting a poll on the Leahy-McMullen race," he said. "One person called. We had 450 people vote in the two days before his show. Which poll was more useful? People can decide for themselves."

However, the number of participants in a poll might not be an accurate gauge of their usefulness or accuracy, according to professors at the Poynter Institute, a journalism school in St. Petersburg, Fla.

Aly Colòn, an ethics group leader at Poynter, said Tuesday that online polls and polling in general could ruin a newspaper's credibility if the publication wasn't upfront about its methodology and accuracy.

"If people think it's definitive information that's pure and unbiased, then they see the results and aren't sure how the findings could happen. They will think the newspaper tried to skew the results in a particular way even if it wasn't," he said.

Al Tompkins, who teaches broadcasting and online issues at Poynter, was even more skeptical of online polling.

"The big issue with online polling is that no matter how many responses you get, it's not 100 percent accurate," he said. "What you end up with is a very lopsided demographic. It gives you a wild idea at best of what a community is thinking."

Tompkins said online polling was once a popular way for newspapers to get their readership involved. But, he said, many newspapers have evolved to using online forums and community chat rooms to have interactive discussions with their readers.

"Most of the time, I've found the online polls to be a complete waste of time because they're so wildly unscientific," he said. "They're called polls, but they're not really polls at all. One is borderline voodoo, the other is scientific polling."


Contact Brent Curtis at [email]brent.curtis@rutlandherald.com[/email].

http://www.timesargus.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20040930/NEWS/409300323/1003/NEWS02
TGRR • Feb 14, 2009 11:56 pm
Wow.

:lol:

Someone disagreed with Merc, and he pooped a solid PAGE of cut and paste.
TheMercenary • Feb 14, 2009 11:56 pm
There have been numerous books pointing to flaws in public opinion polls. In Superpollsters: How They Measure and Manipulate Public Opinion in America (1995), Vice President and senior analyst of the Gallup Organization David W. Moore writes, "The views that people express in polls are very much influenced by the polling process itself, by the way questions are worded, their location in the interview, and the characteristics of the interviewers." By way of an example, Moore describes a 1940 experiment which found that the use of the words “forbid� and “allow� would yield significantly different results in one question. People were asked whether (1) “the United States should forbid speeches against democracy� and whether (2) “the U.S. should allow speeches against democracy.� The results: 46 percent of Americans responded “no� to the first question, yet only 25 percent of Americans agreed with the second question.

In Constructing Public Opinion:How Political Elites Do What They Like and Why We Seem to Go Along with It (2001), Justin Lewis, Professor of Communication and Deputy Head of the School of Journalism, Media and Cultural Studies at Cardiff University in Wales, writes, "It is well known in the poll literature that disparity in response can be generated by something as basic as question wording or by apparently innocuous information given by the interviewer." Supporting this statement, UCLA political science Professor John R. Zaller writes in his book, The Nature and Origins of Mass Opinion (1992): "Entirely trivial changes in questionnaire construction can easily produce 5 to 10 percentage point shifts in aggregate opinion, and occasionally double that." Citing a number of comprehensive studies, Lewis comments that the media fails to represent, especially in the United States, "the degree of support for a variety of political positions on the left from gun control to social justice issues." He argues that not only do polls inaccurately portray public opinion, but the media further distorts the perception of the polls by failing to report the complete range of opinions. Lewis additionally suggests that the news media particularly favors the interests of political and economic elites in their reporting about opinion polls.

Web Resources:
Wall Street Journal article featuring John Zogby of the polling company, Zogby International, Polling Isn't Perfect: Why voter surveys so often get it wrong. (11/14/02)

Article titled Public Opinion Polling Fraud (10/2003) by polling organization, Retro Poll which “designs and performs opinion polls that look at the relationship between public knowledge and public opinion.�

The Program on International Policy Attitudes (PIPA), of the University of Maryland, “carries out research on public attitudes on international issues by conducting nationwide polls, focus groups and comprehensive reviews of polling conducted by other organizations.�

Articles by Institute for Public Accuracy founder and executive director, Norman Solomon:
Polls: When Measuring Is Manipulating (10/18/02)
Polls give Numbers, but Truth Is More Elusive (5/17/96)

Polling Report is "An independent, nonpartisan resource on trends in American public opinion,�

The Washington Post published a list of poll research organizations and associations.

The Roper Center at the University of Connecticut offers links to polling organizations and associations at their web site.

National Council on Public Polls published the following articles:
20 Questions A Journalist Should Ask About Poll Results
Answers to Questions We Often Hear From the Public

About Polling offers information on the field of opinion research gathered from a variety of sources and commentators by the nonprofit organization called Public Agenda, which was founded decades ago by Cyrus Vance and Daniel Yankelovich.

http://www.askquestions.org/details.php?id=25
TheMercenary • Feb 14, 2009 11:57 pm
So yes, the poll is the weakest form of statistical measure.
Redux • Feb 15, 2009 12:20 am
TheMercenary;534697 wrote:
So yes, the poll is the weakest form of statistical measure.

LMAO :D I like the Polling for Dummies!

I'll stick with the American Statistical Association, the American Political Science Association, the Democratic Party, the Republican Party, the major media, social science research organizations, the list is endless...all of which recognize the value of polls in providing a snapshot of public opinion with a relatively high degree of accuracy.

If I think a poll is relevant to a discussion, I will post it....you can post your disclaimer.

And others following the discussion can decide for themselves.
TheMercenary • Feb 15, 2009 1:38 am
Redux;534707 wrote:
the Democratic Party, the Republican Party,
Yea, you just hang on to those.
sugarpop • Feb 18, 2009 12:09 am
classicman;534215 wrote:
Redux, Do you have the actual questions to that poll? Who was defined as "leaders" Were they local, national, not specified? I'm seriously interested. Polls fascinate me. I am one of those people that answer them and surveys all the time. Problem is they mostly offer some really bad choices which virtually force an answer that is usually what the pollster or their backers wanted in the first place.
Many times I have given alternate answers as the options were not accurate enough that the pollster stops in the middle, thanks me and moves on.
I do find it strange that the congressional approval ratings nearly doubled in the last few weeks/months according to the poll you posted.


I agree. Polls are never accurate enough. I almost always want to answer differently than any of the choices given.
sugarpop • Feb 18, 2009 12:21 am
Hey Merc, again, you might want to tell that guy at fivethirtyeight.com that polls are useless, because he pretty consistently accurately predicts stuff based on polls.